December 6, 2021 • 34 mins
A new generation of ad pros is getting more vocal about what they’re willing (and not willing) to work on, and how to do their work. Joe Cole is at the intersection of both of those ideas. He’s the Creative Strategist for Clean Creatives and a Creative Recruiter for We Are Rosie.
In this 35-minute Ad Chatter episode, Dan Goldgeier talks with Joe about whether fossil fuel advertising could become as verboten as tobacco marketing has been and why other related businesses like banks and gas stations aren’t targets of this effort.
Dan and Joe also discuss the We Are Rosie platform, the benefits of not being tied to full-time employment, and what hiring managers are looking for in ad talent today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to ad chatter.
The podcast from ad pulp.com,where we gather around the
virtual water cooler and talkabout ads and the ad business.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello, friends and colleagues.
Welcome to ad chatter from adpulp.com.
I'm your host and gold Geier.
My co-host David burn is onassignment.
Well, uh, I don't know if hereally is on assignment, but it
sounds kind of cool to say thathe is on assignment, but today
we're gonna discuss a couple ofhot button topics in the ad
industry.
Whether some advertisingprofessionals can convince the
(00:37):
industry as a whole to stopworking for fossil fuel clients,
despite our society's relianceon fossil fuels.
And we'll also get into whetherfull-time employment with one
agency or company is simply notattractive, not as attractive as
it used to be.
And what one of the majoralternatives looks like.
So with me today is Joe Cole.
(00:57):
Joe is the creative strategistfor an organization called clean
creative.
And he's also the creativerecruiter for, we are Rosie a
platform for on demand marketingtalent, lots to discuss let's
get right into it.
Joe Cole, welcome to ad chatter.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hey, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, you know, you're a, you're sort of at the
nexus of a lot of changing, um,added twos and morays in the, in
, in the industry, especiallyamong younger professionals.
And I wanted to kind of get intothis cuz you're involved with an
organization that has been inthe news.
Uh, we've talked about it onthis show once or twice.
It's called clean creatives.
Tell us a little bit about whatthe mission of that organization
(01:38):
is.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, so, uh, clean creatives at its, um, at its
nexus at its at its center, um,is trying to get ad agencies to
stop working on fossil fuelclients, uh, somewhat in a, in a
mirroring of what happened whenad agencies were kind of forced
by internal and ex and externalpressure to stop working on
tobacco clients about 20, 25years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Right.
And you know, there are still,uh, agencies, I think, you know,
that do a lot of tobaccomarketing.
It's not cool, it's uncool andit's and if you're a creative
person, like a, a writer, an artdirector, it's not much of a,
um, a big creative opportunityanymore, but you know, it sort
of worked its way intoexperiential and, and, and
promot things.
(02:23):
But, you know, they still have aright to market themselves.
And I guess my question is whatis it about fossil fuels that,
or specifically fossil fuelclients that you think is just a
no go or why people should say,I don't wanna do this anymore?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, I mean, uh, to, to speak to your first point
real quick, um, I think eventhough, you know, tobacco
marketing, yes, it stillhappens, but it's not happening.
You know, it's not happening outin front.
It's not, it's not being workedon by the top creatives.
It's not being worked on by thetop agencies.
If they are working on it, it'son a secret floor or secret
building people, aren't puttingit on their resumes.
(02:59):
They're not, they're not puttingit in their portfolios.
They're not, it's notnecessarily work that you're
proud of.
I mean, I know personally formyself and, you know, speaking
anecdotally, um, for otherpeople that I've turned down the
opportunity to interview for, um, tobacco clients.
So yeah.
You know, to kind of flip intothe, the next part of it, it's
something that, you know, of,you know, tobacco speaking for
(03:20):
tobacco and fossil fuels,creatives are starting to think,
you know, increasingly for thelatter that it's not something
that they would wanna work on orbe part of.
Um, and what we're trying to doat creatives is force, you know,
these top shops that do have, um, these long term, you know,
advertising contracts, I think B, B, D O has been working on
Chevron for something like 27years.
(03:40):
Mm-hmm, I couldhave that slightly wrong.
Um, we wanna force it, you know,to go from these, a list
agencies to something like, youknow, the C list or the D list.
And the work gets the work isless good.
And in, in doing so, you know,it becomes less effective.
It becomes, uh, less somethingthat people wanna work on, uh,
which means it gets hard torecruit people to work on it.
(04:02):
It just has like these cascadingeffects that, you know, overall,
because, um, you know, thesefossil fuel companies are
responsible for around 75% ofcarbon pollution.
Um, if we have even a 1% effecton that, that's massive.
And, you know, I think thatrealistically, you know, when,
and we have ad agencies braggingthat they've increased sales for
(04:23):
their, um, their, um, you know,oil and gas companies by, you
know, 10, 23% year over year, ifthey're no longer doing that,
we're gonna have a much biggereffect on mm-hmm,
um, the state of carbon Ipollution, which
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Sure.
But let me, let me give you thesta the skeptics look at this,
and then, you know, I'm sureyou've gotten a lot of, there's
a lot of people out there who'llsay, okay, but we are all
dependent on fossil fuels rightnow.
Maybe not in the future, maybenot in 20 years from now, but
we're all, you know, we're allin cars, we're all getting on
planes.
We're all, you know, orderingpackages that, and for the
holiday season that are gettingshipped to us on ships and, and,
(05:00):
uh, through other transportationmeans that that end up using
fossil fuels.
So what is the argument about,okay, well, we can't advertise
this legitimate businessanymore.
I mean, you can, you can make anargument.
Let's.
I mean, I don't wanna leave thetobacco thing alone after this,
but, uh, you know, tobacco, youknow, generally was causing a
lot of death and, and, and theyfamously, I remember in the
(05:23):
nineties, the, uh, tobaccoexecutives denied it was causing
cancer.
So where's the argument for,okay.
Fossil fuels are sort of an evilthat should not be advertised,
or we don't want them to beadvertised
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Well, I mean, yeah, there's, there's so many
different ways to, to talk aboutthis one.
I, I think at fossil fuelcompanies, you know, with what
they're doing with climatechange, which is, you know,
impacting the lives of everybodyaround the world, I think that's
gonna have an even bigger impacton people's lives than, you
know, tobacco did because, youknow, other than secondhand
smoke, people who are smokingwere generally only affecting
(05:58):
themselves and potentially, youknow, healthcare systems in the
government climate change isimpacting everything.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so that's one side of it.
I think that, you know, there'sa couple other angles here.
One is that, um, you know, justbecause energy companies, you
know, oil and gas companies, um,just because they do need
advertising and they do have alegitimate business doesn't mean
(06:18):
that, you know, a lot of thefocus that, uh, their current
advertising model is talkingabout, uh, is kind of
greenwashing the rest of theirbusiness.
It's presenting kind of a falsefront of, oh, we're, you know,
looking to, um, other otherforms of energy, we're
investing, you know, millions ofdollars into these other things.
Um, but you know, at the endday, 99% of their, you know,
(06:39):
investment is still going tofossil fuel, um, projects.
So they're kind of presenting afalse, um, image to the, to
society, through advertisingmm-hmm, um, and you
know, what it comes to this, um,you know, obviously yes, we are
still dependent on, in some wayon fossil fuels, but because of
(07:00):
how alternative energy sourceshave, um, gotten cheaper, I mean
, solars continues to go treat,grow, grow cheaper than, you
know, people ever thought it waspossible.
Yeah.
And you know, it, if we can, youknow, wean ourselves away from
fossil fuels, there are a lot ofother issues to be solved in
(07:21):
order to get to a place, youknow, where we're not just
carbon zero, but, uh, nets zerowe're carbon negative, and
we're, you know, reversing theeffects of, uh, climate change.
Uh, we do have enough capacity.
We have enough industry to, um,meet our energy needs if we're
only willing to make the change.
And again, uh, this isn'tsomething that's happening, you
know, to generations from now orsomething that, you know, our
(07:44):
great grandkids will deal with.
This is something that we, we,me and you and everybody
listening to this mm-hmm are currently
dealing with today.
Um, you know, the time to makethe change is now, and there's
not really an opportunity tocontinue delaying in much
further.
Yeah.
I mean,
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I would love, and I've said this before, I would
love to see the ad industry dofor solar, what it has done for
fossil fuels in terms of takingsomebody, some producer of
whether it's solar panels orsolar systems and just making
them just the most admirablebrand in the world.
And I haven't seen it.
Um, I've seen small efforts, butI haven't seen big ones, but
let's talk a little bit aboutwhat clean creatives has done.
(08:19):
Um, have you had any inroadsinto these big agencies?
Have you had any, uh, substancesubstantive discussions with
them about doing this?
Um, what's the, what's themechanics of which you're going
about trying to make change?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Totally.
So right now we have, uh, as of,as of a few days ago and it, the
number of keeps keeps growing,uh, in leaps and bounds, but we
have 217 agencies who havesigned this pledge.
Wow.
Um, a lot of them aren't, youknow, the biggest agencies in
the world.
There's not, to my knowledge,there haven't been a lot of
agencies or maybe even anyagencies who have, you know,
(08:56):
ended a fossil fuel agreement,signed our pledge.
But, uh, we, you know, we've hadcontacts and conversations with
some of the biggest, uh, youknow, people at the C-suite
level, uh, for some of thebiggest agencies in the world,
you know, like people likeglobal chief creative officers,
or, you know, senior vicepresidents, um, we've had, you
know, there's, there'sdefinitely agencies out there
(09:16):
that seem to have somewhat of a,um, kind of moving in the same,
a parallel path, you know,movement with us, you know,
whether they're going B Corp or,you know, their, you know, the,
the work that they're doing seemto be very aligned, uh, with,
with us, whether it's from, uh,an environmental justice social
justice perspective, or just thekinds of clients.
And, uh, they take on the workthey do.
(09:39):
Um, but yeah, so as of now, we,we've only had a few kind of
like bigger agencies, um, signto us at fuera is one, uh, F and
B New York is another.
Um, but we fully anticipate that, um, once, once some bigger
names sign on and it'll be kindof like, um, kinda like a one
(09:59):
snowflake turns into anavalanche sort of thing, mm-hmm,
like, yeah.
Uh, we know that, you know,there are a lot of agencies and
a lot of conversations happening, uh, within holding companies
and agencies about this.
Um, you know, people tell usbecause they work, they work
with these agencies.
I mean, Edelman is probablyprobably, uh, what you, what you
mentioned.
We were in the news for, um,Edelman, you know, how to
(10:20):
address a, a big thing that, youknow, we, we were part of and
help helped to get to light, uh,an open letter to them, uh,
signed by a bunch of, you know,really creative and environment,
really creative people in theindustry, as well as, uh,
environmental activists, uh,kind of focusing on, you know,
their work.
So, you know, we, we hear what'sgoing on inside agencies, inside
holding companies, and we'reseeing the, the small steps
(10:42):
they're taking, which mm-hmm, sadly in many
cases, isn't enough.
Um, but you know, we're, that'swhy we're here to continue to
put pressure on them from theoutside to continue to give
people on the inside tools,resources, ideas, uh, in order
to, you know, connect with theircolleagues and, you know, make,
make a change.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Have you had a conversation with somebody in,
in a holding company or somebodyvery high up who says, I really
love what you're trying to do,but I just can't talk about it.
I just can't do it.
I just can't go there because,you know, they're scared to lose
their job or make waves or, orwhatnot.
I mean, so very, you know, it'sa very controversial, I
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Idea.
Uh, yeah, I mean, speaking,speaking more for our whole
team, we've definitely had, uh,I've had a few of those, uh, I
know Duncan, uh, who's kind oflike the, the head of clean
creatives.
He's had a lot more, we'vedefinitely talked with people
who, you know, again, you know,some of these very senior people
who have signed our pledge asindividuals, but not, um, as the
(11:38):
whole agency and sometimes theiragency doesn't even, um, work in
any fossil fuel, um, companiesmm-hmm, but their
holding company might have somein, you know, in a different
agency.
So it's something that, youknow, again, we're, we're
putting the pressure on and ithelps that, you know, because
climate change is somethingthat's gonna increasingly affect
people.
(11:59):
The younger you are, you know,people who are typically in the
C-suite, uh, tend to be moreimmune to, you know, climate
change personally affectingthem, whether, because, um, the
color of their skin or the age,or because you know, how much
money they have in their bankaccount.
But, you know, the further downyou get, the more likely it is
that climate change is somethingthat's going to affect them.
(12:21):
So it always helps to, you know,when we could say to a junior
copywriter, an ad agency, like,Hey, you should go talk, you
should reach out to, you know,the, the CEO of your office or
the chief, you know, the global,the global, uh, chief creative
officer, because they're an allythey're on the same page as you,
they, they agree with you.
And it always helps to havefriends in high places when
(12:42):
you're trying to kind of reforma system from the inside, which
is what a lot of people aretrying to do right now, you know
, across the nation in theworld.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
There were a couple of articles in ad week, last
week, uh, um, that one of themwas an editorial perspective
from a woman who worked atEdelman.
She was a senior vice presidentfor, I think, you know, she had
worked 20 years in, in publicrelations and she decided to
leave.
And this was a few years ago,she left her job, uh, because
she was dissatisfied with theway Edelman was approaching
(13:10):
their fossil fuel clients and,and the way that they were
handled this issue.
But my question is going backto, you know, senior people and
old man bill Bach used to say aprincipal, isn't a principal
until it costs you money, arepeople really willing to quit
their jobs over this?
Have you seen anybody willing tosay I'm out other than, um,
(13:32):
other than the Edelman?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, I think anecdotally, yes.
Um, I've definitely seen peoplewho this is part of it.
Um, I think that, you know,there's a lot of other factors
at play here and I'm sure we'regonna get into, you know, the
remote work possible when wetalk about we Rosie.
But, um, for me personally, um,, it's something
(13:56):
that like climate change and,and, you know, agency stances on
both their clients and, youknow, the clients I've been
working on has something that,you know, it definitely impacted
me.
Like, I didn't feel like I wasmaking the world a better place.
Um, so I know that other peoplehave taken this into account as
far as it being the only reason.
Like, I don't know.
I don't know if I know any offthe top of my head say like,
(14:17):
yeah, I was making one 50 ayear.
I, you know, I'd been with thisagency for 10 years and they
wouldn't, they wouldn't, uh,leave their fossil fuel clients.
So I left them.
I don't know that we've, we'vehit that point yet, but I think
that's something that's coming.
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (14:30):
What will it take?
What, what would it take?
Speaker 3 (14:33):
I mean, there was a quote somewhere and I'm, I'm
slightly par making it wrong.
Sally it's climate change issomething you see about on a
it's something you see on ascreen until you see it
happening in real life.
.
Yeah.
Um, I think it, it was like, itwas a video of these people.
I think, I think it was, it wasa tweet, it was a video of these
people on, um, on like a carferry and they had been
(14:57):
evacuated in Greece and thewhole like, sky, like it's just
on fire.
And it's at contrast with likethe, the fluorescent light of
this car ferry.
And everyone just kind of likestanding there, like watching
this horrific thing happeningmm-hmm and I think
as more and more of those thingshappen, which, you know, as
we've seen over the past fewyears, like, yeah, we don't get
a crazy hurricane in every cityevery year or a crazy fire
(15:20):
happening in every part of theworld every year, but as more
and more of them happen andpeople, you know, start to wake
up and realize like, Hey, wow, Ihave two kids.
And, you know, if it's, youknow, expon really getting worse
for me and what's it gonna belike for them.
Right.
I think you're gonna see a lotmore people willing to willing
to, um, take a stance there.
(15:40):
I, I definitely know people whohave avoided, you know, as I
mentioned, I, I, you know, I'veturned down, work on tobacco.
Clients have turned down, workon, um, us government agencies,
uh, military agencies.
Um, I know people are startingto put that into their internal
calculus, like, oh, like Idon't, I'm not, I don't want to
work on this.
Um, I don't want to interviewfor this.
(16:01):
I know people within agenciesthat do work on this, uh, sort
of stuff, B, B, D O WundermanThompson.
Oh, will be.
I know we have lots of storieswhere people have been asked if
they wanna work on a particularfossil fuel client and they've
turned that down and, you know,continued to work at the agency
in other places.
Yeah.
But I think, I think it is gonnabe something because, you know,
when frankly, when we were kids,yes, climate changes are already
(16:23):
happening, but it wasn'tsomething, something that, um,
people thought about every day.
And increasingly, as peoplethink about this thing on a, a
weekly daily basis, it will besomething that affects their
entire calculus, like where theylive, where they work, who they
end up with, if they decide tohave kids.
Yeah.
All of those things, because itis such a, it is gonna be such
(16:45):
an omnipresent part of our life.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Sure, sure.
You know, I live in Seattle andone of there's, um, this is a
very politically active town.
There are a lot of protests, uh,very regularly for a lot of
different causes.
And when the environmental, um,movement wants to protest fossil
fuels, they go to JP Morganchase.
They go to chase bank, basicallythe downtown bank location.
So my question is because JPMorgan chase obviously funds,
(17:10):
you know, provides loans and,and financial for a lot of this
fossil fuel companies.
So is it a slippery slope forcream creatives where you say,
okay, we don't want, we don'twant agencies to advertise the
banks or gas stations or otherfolks that are part of this
ecosystem of fossil fuels.
Is that a legitimate part ofclean creatives mission or, or
(17:31):
not
Speaker 3 (17:33):
At this moment right now, we're focused on the worst
of the worst, which is mm-hmm fossil fuel
clients.
I think as, as the, as thatmission continues to go forward,
if we can get, if we can, as Isaid, we, fossil fuel clients
are responsible for 75% ofcarbon emissions.
If we can make a sizable dent inthat, that will have outsize
(17:56):
effects on the total amount ofcarbon emissions.
Are there other people who areconnected to, um, to the, to
that, to that industry?
Absolutely.
Whether they're banks orshipping companies, or, you
know, asked fashion, they allhave a part to play, but as we,
as a society, as a, as a, as aspecies move away from fossil
(18:17):
fuels, all of those other thingsare much smaller problems to
solve, at least in relation.
And, you know, as we movetowards clean energy, towards
green energy, all of that willwe'll have a change downstream.
Mm-hmm,, it's just,you have to start somewhere and
we're, we're choosing to startat the biggest, most obvious
target who's responsible for themost.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Right.
Got it.
So there was, uh, last week, uh,also in the news, a recent, uh,
peer reviewed article in thejournal called climactic change,
uh, came out.
It was, uh, some, I think it wassome Boston university
researchers.
And what they showed is that PRfirms are a key organizational
actor in climate politics.
Now we tend to sort ofcompartmentalize I've worked in
(19:00):
the end industry a long time.
We tend to compartmentalizepolitical marketing and
advertising from consumermarketing and advertising.
Uh, I guess my question is, isclean creatives gonna branch out
into climate policy and also tryto, in fact, you know, we got a
big election coming up, midtermelection in, in November.
Are you getting people to, to,uh, think about, you know, the
(19:22):
fact that advertising and, andpublic relations firms influence
politicians, they influence thepolicy, they influence the laws
that are perpetuating thisclimate climate change.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah.
I mean, we, we actually arealready doing that.
So there's, uh, there's been anumber of, um, city governments
and state governments that havestarted to pursue lawsuits or,
um, you know, um, kind of panelsinto looking how advertising in
PR has helped, um, the fossilfuel industry.
(19:53):
Uh, right now we're working with, um, RO representative roun and
to kind of investigate this.
And I know that I forget exactlythe name of the committee, but,
uh, representative Maloney asgoing to subpoena oil companies,
ask them about the work they'vedone with over 180 agencies.
So we definitely are letting afire there because I mean,
(20:15):
that's where that's honestlywhere a lot of the money that
comes outta fossil fuelcompanies goes is towards
affecting, you know, governmentat the state and state local and
federal level, like around theworld.
Um, so we're, we're definitelytrying to, you know, do our part
that obviously we don't havebillions of dollars to play
around and, and lobbying money,but, you know, we're always
(20:37):
trying to punch above our weightanyways.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Sure, sure.
Well, it sounds like that's avery big, um, part of where I
think a lot of attitudes in thead industry are going, people
want more control over the kindof work they do.
They want to have more controlover where they do it.
And that leads me into the next,uh, section of your work, which
(20:59):
is you are a creativestrategist, or excuse me, a
sorry, creative recruiter for,we are rosy.
Tell us a little bit about weRosie, we've talked a little bit
about it on, uh, previous adchatter, uh, episodes, but, uh,
talk to us a little bit aboutwhat it is.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah.
So we are, Rosie is basically a,a new kind of way to recruit
talent.
Uh, we, we think of ourselves asa marketplace for freelancers
versus something like a, a, youknow, a creative circle or, you
know, another kind of talentagency, which is kind of
existing to kind of matchcompanies with talent and then
(21:35):
kind of steps back mm-hmm.
Um, as somebody who spent eightplus years in advertising, I
worked with a lot of differentstaffing agencies.
Um, and you know, there weredefinitely some I liked and
some, I didn't like some, I felt, uh, kind of like a cog in the
machine or, you know, just anumber.
Yeah.
There's, I'm sure many other advertisers can relate
(21:55):
to being reached out to, by arecruiter who had no interest in
knowing who you were and offeredyou a role that had little or
nothing to do with your skillsetor background.
I still got those emails.
So I I'm sure
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I'm what people do too.
I'm a freelance copywriter.
I get them all the time.
I get'em every I get'em everyweek.
So what is the, what is theprocess for, for becoming a rosy
?
And I think a, I think everybodyis a rosy if they join, right?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah.
So we have a free community.
Uh, it's free to join.
Just kind of gives you a littlebit information about, about
yourself, everything from likethe, um, kind of your skillset,
your background, what you'relooking for next, uh, the amount
of hours you're trying to workagain, we're trying to, we're
trying to promote freelancing asa model remote work, um, full
flex, like all those sorts ofthings are, are, are what we're,
(22:41):
what we're aiming for.
Uh, which means that we're alittle bit more high touch when
it comes to, um, our Rosie'sthan, uh, you know, a staffing
agency might be because wetypically don't place full-time
roles, we place freelancers.
So we might get people workingwith us again and again, and
again, I think, I thinksomewhere, I think the, the
current record is somewhere wellon the teens for, for somebody
(23:04):
who's worked, you know, 13, 14,15 plus, um, through us mm-hmm,
, we've had opwe've had people, um, leave
their staffing agency remainwith the same employer and then
kind of succeed to us.
Yeah.
Uh, so we're, we're, we'rereally great because I think we,
we developed this model and thisrapport with our Rosies, we, you
(23:26):
know, as somebody who was astrategist creative strategist
before kind of do do thesethings, I, I work a lot with
copywriters with art directors,creative directors, sometimes
like these really niche roles.
And, you know, sometimes Idon't, I don't get it right,
because I wasn't necessarily avisual designer and people were
like, oh, that's not mybackground.
I'm like, okay, well, tell me alittle bit more about what is
(23:46):
your background, so I can filethat away.
So, you know, we are betterequipped, not just me, but our
whole team to find a role that'sa little bit closer to what
you're looking for in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So if someone signs up to be a rosy, does that
exclusively, um, bind them toyou?
Are they still free to go aboutother, uh, freelance op
opportunities or, or, or isthere, is there difference, I
guess I'm trying to figure outthe difference between the R
woosie model and let's say thecreative circle model, what is,
you know, what's the advantage.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Yeah.
I think, I think they're freeto, well, not, I think they're
definitely free to pursue anyother freelancing opportunities,
whether they're, you know, do itthrough another agency or
through a company or throughcontacts, wherever they are
throughout the industry.
We have, mm-hmm, alot of times I reach out to
somebody and they're, you know,already working somewhere or
they have a, they picked up anew contract and, you know, I
(24:38):
say, Hey, like, you know, let meknow when you're available and
I'll reach back out then, uh,potentially, or, you know, feel
free to reach out if it doesn'twork out.
Um, I think it's just another,another way that freelancers or
people who are looking to pickup a little bit of freelancing
on the side of a full-time job,uh, just another way that they
can another, another tool tofind freelance opportunities.
(24:59):
And, you know, as I said, Ithink that we're not, I think, I
mean, I, having been, somebody'sbeen on the other side, like
we're done definitely differentthan every other staffing agency
model, because we're focusedexclusively on freelancers and
we have a very active role.
It's not just a database forcompanies to look through.
Right.
Or we have the database and wehave people who are actively
looking through for talent.
(25:20):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (25:21):
.
Is it, so who are you, who areyou working with in terms of
agencies and companies andbrands?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Um, yeah, I mean, we're, we're placing talent at
some of the top tech companies,uh, in the world, uh, everything
from Amazon to Microsoft, toGoogle, to Twitter, um, to
Facebook.
Um, and we're working with also,uh, a number of different, uh,
ad agencies as well.
I've, I've been lucky enough totalent or at least attempt to
place talent at a, at a numberof different companies.
(25:51):
And it's been, it's been reallyawesome because we, you know, we
have a, such a, such a highlevel of talent within our
database of, of Rosie freeanswers.
So it's awesome to see them kindof be able to work on these
really awesome projects and addto their book and continue
growing their skill set.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Great.
So, you know, at this pointwe're recording this since
December, 2021 and the storylast year, of course, in COVID
was tens of thousands of peoplegetting laid off in the ad
industry.
And because of the, just was sofear of the unknown this year,
uh, all the reports are, there'sa big hiring, there's just
(26:29):
competition for talent.
Um, what are you noticing as acreative recruiter in terms of
what employers are asking for,and also what creatives want?
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Um, I, I mean, I think at least, again, speaking
personally from my, my, my ownperspective, I think that prior
to COVID happening, a lot ofpeople weren't sure that they
could work from home and theyweren't sure if they could
freelance, uh, people preferredkind of like, you know, the
safety of the office and kind oflike what, what they, what the
(27:04):
known quantity was of working inan office, having a full-time
job, having benefits.
Um, I think, you know, COVIDforcing people to, to work from
home, um, also forcing peoplewho got laid off to kind of have
to figure it out and kind ofthink on their feet.
I think it opened up a lot ofopportunities, uh, that you see,
you know, kind of kind out thisyear with the, you know, the
great resignation quote unquotehappening, uh, you know, with a
(27:28):
lot of people saying, why am Iworking?
Why am I working in an officewhen I can be at home and spend
time with my kids, um, and dothe same amount of work, maybe
potentially even make more moneyand maybe even work less that I
think we're also seeing a greatdecoupling, uh, at the center of
all this of people, um, notbeing as tied to working, you
know, 50, 60 hour work weekstraveling to, and from an
(27:52):
office.
And, you know, having that besuch a major part of that
identity, they're, they'reseeing the value and maybe,
maybe earning just slightlyless, but working half as much,
you know, especially if youfactor in commute time, I spend
time more time on activities,friends, family, um, whatever it
is that actually, you know,fuels them mm-hmm
and, you know, in our industrywhere there is such a need for
(28:15):
freelancers, always, um, people,people, you know, if they've
worked at an agency, if they'veworked at a big, big company, if
they've worked in any kind ofcreative team, they've almost
certainly been exposed to otherpeople freelancing.
So it's not kind of somethingthat's unknown.
And I think more and more peopleha have seen the appeal of, you
know, for whatever reason, youknow, as, as, as I just said,
there's definitely a lot of themout there and maybe it's a
(28:37):
combination, but, uh, people areseeing that it's, it's something
that they can do and they cansucceed in and, you know, I've
been, and really happy to seepeople who have, you know,
decided to take the leap for thefirst time.
Yeah.
And be able to do it, even ifthey've just, you know, got the
interview and didn't, didn't endup doing it.
Um, just, you know, taking thosefirst steps in order to, um, see
if it's something that's forthem.
(28:57):
Got
Speaker 2 (28:58):
It.
And what are the employerslooking for?
Are there certain skills,certain, certain tactics, are
they looking for, you know,social creatives, viral of
people with certain backgrounds?
What, what is what's in demandthese days?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Uh, everything.
I mean, I, I filled, I've filledpersonally all sorts of roles
and I'm just working part-timein it.
I know our team has just filleda lot of different ones as well.
Um, there's really, you know,because as I said, I mentioned
prior, prior to being arecruiter and working for the
recruits as a nonprofit, um, Iwas in advertising for a long
(29:33):
time, but mainly focused on, youknow, my own kind of creative
strategy, social strategy,digital strategy type, uh,
fields have been reallyinteresting to see all these
different, um, all thesedifferent job descriptions from
various companies.
And sometimes from the samecompany, like getting very
different ones depending on theteam.
Um, and learning a little bitmore about all these like kind
(29:54):
of niche skills, uh, thatcompanies looking for.
I think one thing that's that Ican say is that company, these
companies love, um, these likereally like interesting niche
skills, um, and you know, kindof extracurricular type
activities.
Um, I think portfolios arealways super important.
Uh, if people have theopportunity to take, um, little
(30:15):
classes or courses, um, to, toget new certifications or
different skill sets.
So I think that's somethingthat's always huge, cuz you
never know when a project mightcome through that needs, you
know, that they're 99% fit for,but because they don't have one
thing, they might not beeligible.
Um, I think, yeah, updating yourportfolio, having a great
portfolio is huge.
I, I think for me, like, becauseI've been in the industry so
(30:38):
long, I could look at somebody'sLinkedIn and kind of make a
Snapchat, um, on, based ontheir, you know, the agencies
that they've worked at and theclients they've worked on, I
could say, oh yeah, this personhas it because I don't even need
to look at their portfoliobecause I know that that agency
probably already thoroughlyvetted them with, you know,
multiple in-person interviewsand they worked there for four
(30:58):
years.
I don't need, I don't need to dothe work that's already been
done.
Right.
Um, our clients don'tnecessarily have that
background.
So, um, yeah.
Having, having a slick, slicklooking portfolio, um, website
and you know, having greatexamples of your work there is
definitely important.
But yeah, I, I don't thinkthere's any kind of limit to, to
what I, what I've seen or what Iwill see because you know, we're
(31:20):
to Rosie is definitely growingand we're gonna continue to get,
uh, lots of new opportunitiesfor creatives.
Wonderful.
And everyone else creative.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Oh, that's right.
Well, you know, I think it's, uh, Stephanie Olson who started
it, she was a media.
Um, she was in media, wasn'tshe, before she started this, it
always occurred to me that, or Ialways thought that we are,
Rosie was more of a mediaplatform or media buyers and
playing, but you know, inaddition to the creatives,
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Um, I know at least I, I, I have, I have Stephanie
filed in my head as having worksadvertising.
I believe it was in media, butI'm, I'm not a hundred percent.
Maybe
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I've got that completely wrong.
It wouldn't be the first time.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
No, it's, it's, it's fine.
Uh, I do know that she's an, anawesome leader for a company and
, you know, you a being afounder woman, founder, um,
she's bootstrapped the wholething.
It's, it's really awesome tosee, you know, even in the six
months or so, I've been, I'vebeen on as a creative recruiter
and then, you know, the previoussix months when I was working as
(32:18):
, um, as kind of an editor withthem, um, just to see how much
the company has grown, not justin personnel and talent, um, but
also, you know, the technologywe're using and the, the tools
we're using on the inside.
Um, but yeah, I mean to, just toanswer that last part, we're,
we're definitely placing a lotof media people.
In fact, that's probably the, inmy opinion, the, just about the
hottest part of our company isplacing media talent.
(32:39):
Um, especially in that industry,I think there is even more, even
more than like creative agenciesand tech companies, a aid earth
of talent available.
So if you're listening to thisand you're a media person and,
and you're thinking your job isnot that great, and you're
thinking about freelancing,please come join our community
because, we will we getyou to work within a week or
two.
(33:00):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Wow.
So, okay.
That's a great way to wrap itup.
Joe, if anybody wants to findout about clean creatives or we
are Rosie, where do they go?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Uh, well for either, yeah, I would just go to our dot
coms.
Uh, you can also find us onTwitter or Instagram, uh, or
what have you for cleancreatives.
Uh, I'm definitely one of thepeople that'll answer the DM, so
feel free to feel free to DM us.
Uh, we're usually pretty goodabout responding.
Uh, we Rosie, I'm not on thesocial team there, but I know
that they're, um, they're superon top of things and they're
(33:31):
putting out great stuff.
So, um, feel free to DM themwith a specific question or just
add us, hopefully somebody willget back to you on either side,
but, uh, yeah, we have lots,lots of different, uh, ways to
get in, in touch with either ofus.
So
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Terrific.
Terrific, Joe, thank you foryour time.
Uh, it was a pleasure to talk toyou and it sounds like you are
on the forefront of a couple ofreally, uh, unique organizations
that are certainly changingthings up in the industry.
It's uh, it's, it's interestingto watch.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's really, it's reallyawesome to be part of, uh, these
two movements that and companiesthat are, I think, well,
movements would probably be thebetter word that are, I, I think
helping to make our industrybetter and you know, in doing so
the world a better place.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Great.
Thank you, friends andcolleagues.
This has been ad chatter from adpulp.com.
I'm Dan gold.
Geier we wish a good holidayseason at, and we'll be back
soon with more great people andgreat ad chatter
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Engineered by Dan gold in Seattle, Washington.
Welcome to ad chatter.
The podcast from ad pulp.com,where we gather around the
virtual water cooler and talkabout ads and the ad business.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello, friends and colleagues.
Welcome to ad chatter from adpulp.com.
I'm your host and gold Geier.
My co-host David burn is onassignment.
Well, uh, I don't know if hereally is on assignment, but it
sounds kind of cool to say thathe is on assignment, but today
we're gonna discuss a couple ofhot button topics in the ad
industry.
Whether some advertisingprofessionals can convince the
(00:37):
industry as a whole to stopworking for fossil fuel clients,
despite our society's relianceon fossil fuels.
And we'll also get into whetherfull-time employment with one
agency or company is simply notattractive, not as attractive as
it used to be.
And what one of the majoralternatives looks like.
So with me today is Joe Cole.
(00:57):
Joe is the creative strategistfor an organization called clean
creative.
And he's also the creativerecruiter for, we are Rosie a
platform for on demand marketingtalent, lots to discuss let's
get right into it.
Joe Cole, welcome to ad chatter.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hey, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, you know, you're a, you're sort of at the
nexus of a lot of changing, um,added twos and morays in the, in
, in the industry, especiallyamong younger professionals.
And I wanted to kind of get intothis cuz you're involved with an
organization that has been inthe news.
Uh, we've talked about it onthis show once or twice.
It's called clean creatives.
Tell us a little bit about whatthe mission of that organization
(01:38):
is.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, so, uh, clean creatives at its, um, at its
nexus at its at its center, um,is trying to get ad agencies to
stop working on fossil fuelclients, uh, somewhat in a, in a
mirroring of what happened whenad agencies were kind of forced
by internal and ex and externalpressure to stop working on
tobacco clients about 20, 25years ago.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Right.
And you know, there are still,uh, agencies, I think, you know,
that do a lot of tobaccomarketing.
It's not cool, it's uncool andit's and if you're a creative
person, like a, a writer, an artdirector, it's not much of a,
um, a big creative opportunityanymore, but you know, it sort
of worked its way intoexperiential and, and, and
promot things.
(02:23):
But, you know, they still have aright to market themselves.
And I guess my question is whatis it about fossil fuels that,
or specifically fossil fuelclients that you think is just a
no go or why people should say,I don't wanna do this anymore?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, I mean, uh, to, to speak to your first point
real quick, um, I think eventhough, you know, tobacco
marketing, yes, it stillhappens, but it's not happening.
You know, it's not happening outin front.
It's not, it's not being workedon by the top creatives.
It's not being worked on by thetop agencies.
If they are working on it, it'son a secret floor or secret
building people, aren't puttingit on their resumes.
(02:59):
They're not, they're not puttingit in their portfolios.
They're not, it's notnecessarily work that you're
proud of.
I mean, I know personally formyself and, you know, speaking
anecdotally, um, for otherpeople that I've turned down the
opportunity to interview for, um, tobacco clients.
So yeah.
You know, to kind of flip intothe, the next part of it, it's
something that, you know, of,you know, tobacco speaking for
(03:20):
tobacco and fossil fuels,creatives are starting to think,
you know, increasingly for thelatter that it's not something
that they would wanna work on orbe part of.
Um, and what we're trying to doat creatives is force, you know,
these top shops that do have, um, these long term, you know,
advertising contracts, I think B, B, D O has been working on
Chevron for something like 27years.
(03:40):
Mm-hmm
Um, we wanna force it, you know,to go from these, a list
agencies to something like, youknow, the C list or the D list.
And the work gets the work isless good.
And in, in doing so, you know,it becomes less effective.
It becomes, uh, less somethingthat people wanna work on, uh,
which means it gets hard torecruit people to work on it.
(04:02):
It just has like these cascadingeffects that, you know, overall,
because, um, you know, thesefossil fuel companies are
responsible for around 75% ofcarbon pollution.
Um, if we have even a 1% effecton that, that's massive.
And, you know, I think thatrealistically, you know, when,
and we have ad agencies braggingthat they've increased sales for
(04:23):
their, um, their, um, you know,oil and gas companies by, you
know, 10, 23% year over year, ifthey're no longer doing that,
we're gonna have a much biggereffect on mm-hmm
um, the state of carbon Ipollution, which
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Sure.
But let me, let me give you thesta the skeptics look at this,
and then, you know, I'm sureyou've gotten a lot of, there's
a lot of people out there who'llsay, okay, but we are all
dependent on fossil fuels rightnow.
Maybe not in the future, maybenot in 20 years from now, but
we're all, you know, we're allin cars, we're all getting on
planes.
We're all, you know, orderingpackages that, and for the
holiday season that are gettingshipped to us on ships and, and,
(05:00):
uh, through other transportationmeans that that end up using
fossil fuels.
So what is the argument about,okay, well, we can't advertise
this legitimate businessanymore.
I mean, you can, you can make anargument.
Let's.
I mean, I don't wanna leave thetobacco thing alone after this,
but, uh, you know, tobacco, youknow, generally was causing a
lot of death and, and, and theyfamously, I remember in the
(05:23):
nineties, the, uh, tobaccoexecutives denied it was causing
cancer.
So where's the argument for,okay.
Fossil fuels are sort of an evilthat should not be advertised,
or we don't want them to beadvertised
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Well, I mean, yeah, there's, there's so many
different ways to, to talk aboutthis one.
I, I think at fossil fuelcompanies, you know, with what
they're doing with climatechange, which is, you know,
impacting the lives of everybodyaround the world, I think that's
gonna have an even bigger impacton people's lives than, you
know, tobacco did because, youknow, other than secondhand
smoke, people who are smokingwere generally only affecting
(05:58):
themselves and potentially, youknow, healthcare systems in the
government climate change isimpacting everything.
Mm-hmm
Um, so that's one side of it.
I think that, you know, there'sa couple other angles here.
One is that, um, you know, justbecause energy companies, you
know, oil and gas companies, um,just because they do need
advertising and they do have alegitimate business doesn't mean
(06:18):
that, you know, a lot of thefocus that, uh, their current
advertising model is talkingabout, uh, is kind of
greenwashing the rest of theirbusiness.
It's presenting kind of a falsefront of, oh, we're, you know,
looking to, um, other otherforms of energy, we're
investing, you know, millions ofdollars into these other things.
Um, but you know, at the endday, 99% of their, you know,
(06:39):
investment is still going tofossil fuel, um, projects.
So they're kind of presenting afalse, um, image to the, to
society, through advertisingmm-hmm
know, what it comes to this, um,you know, obviously yes, we are
still dependent on, in some wayon fossil fuels, but because of
(07:00):
how alternative energy sourceshave, um, gotten cheaper, I mean
, solars continues to go treat,grow, grow cheaper than, you
know, people ever thought it waspossible.
Yeah.
And you know, it, if we can, youknow, wean ourselves away from
fossil fuels, there are a lot ofother issues to be solved in
(07:21):
order to get to a place, youknow, where we're not just
carbon zero, but, uh, nets zerowe're carbon negative, and
we're, you know, reversing theeffects of, uh, climate change.
Uh, we do have enough capacity.
We have enough industry to, um,meet our energy needs if we're
only willing to make the change.
And again, uh, this isn'tsomething that's happening, you
know, to generations from now orsomething that, you know, our
(07:44):
great grandkids will deal with.
This is something that we, we,me and you and everybody
listening to this mm-hmm
dealing with today.
Um, you know, the time to makethe change is now, and there's
not really an opportunity tocontinue delaying in much
further.
Yeah.
I mean,
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I would love, and I've said this before, I would
love to see the ad industry dofor solar, what it has done for
fossil fuels in terms of takingsomebody, some producer of
whether it's solar panels orsolar systems and just making
them just the most admirablebrand in the world.
And I haven't seen it.
Um, I've seen small efforts, butI haven't seen big ones, but
let's talk a little bit aboutwhat clean creatives has done.
(08:19):
Um, have you had any inroadsinto these big agencies?
Have you had any, uh, substancesubstantive discussions with
them about doing this?
Um, what's the, what's themechanics of which you're going
about trying to make change?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Totally.
So right now we have, uh, as of,as of a few days ago and it, the
number of keeps keeps growing,uh, in leaps and bounds, but we
have 217 agencies who havesigned this pledge.
Wow.
Um, a lot of them aren't, youknow, the biggest agencies in
the world.
There's not, to my knowledge,there haven't been a lot of
agencies or maybe even anyagencies who have, you know,
(08:56):
ended a fossil fuel agreement,signed our pledge.
But, uh, we, you know, we've hadcontacts and conversations with
some of the biggest, uh, youknow, people at the C-suite
level, uh, for some of thebiggest agencies in the world,
you know, like people likeglobal chief creative officers,
or, you know, senior vicepresidents, um, we've had, you
know, there's, there'sdefinitely agencies out there
(09:16):
that seem to have somewhat of a,um, kind of moving in the same,
a parallel path, you know,movement with us, you know,
whether they're going B Corp or,you know, their, you know, the,
the work that they're doing seemto be very aligned, uh, with,
with us, whether it's from, uh,an environmental justice social
justice perspective, or just thekinds of clients.
And, uh, they take on the workthey do.
(09:39):
Um, but yeah, so as of now, we,we've only had a few kind of
like bigger agencies, um, signto us at fuera is one, uh, F and
B New York is another.
Um, but we fully anticipate that, um, once, once some bigger
names sign on and it'll be kindof like, um, kinda like a one
(09:59):
snowflake turns into anavalanche sort of thing, mm-hmm,
Uh, we know that, you know,there are a lot of agencies and
a lot of conversations happening, uh, within holding companies
and agencies about this.
Um, you know, people tell usbecause they work, they work
with these agencies.
I mean, Edelman is probablyprobably, uh, what you, what you
mentioned.
We were in the news for, um,Edelman, you know, how to
(10:20):
address a, a big thing that, youknow, we, we were part of and
help helped to get to light, uh,an open letter to them, uh,
signed by a bunch of, you know,really creative and environment,
really creative people in theindustry, as well as, uh,
environmental activists, uh,kind of focusing on, you know,
their work.
So, you know, we, we hear what'sgoing on inside agencies, inside
holding companies, and we'reseeing the, the small steps
(10:42):
they're taking, which mm-hmm,
cases, isn't enough.
Um, but you know, we're, that'swhy we're here to continue to
put pressure on them from theoutside to continue to give
people on the inside tools,resources, ideas, uh, in order
to, you know, connect with theircolleagues and, you know, make,
make a change.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Have you had a conversation with somebody in,
in a holding company or somebodyvery high up who says, I really
love what you're trying to do,but I just can't talk about it.
I just can't do it.
I just can't go there because,you know, they're scared to lose
their job or make waves or, orwhatnot.
I mean, so very, you know, it'sa very controversial, I
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Idea.
Uh, yeah, I mean, speaking,speaking more for our whole
team, we've definitely had, uh,I've had a few of those, uh, I
know Duncan, uh, who's kind oflike the, the head of clean
creatives.
He's had a lot more, we'vedefinitely talked with people
who, you know, again, you know,some of these very senior people
who have signed our pledge asindividuals, but not, um, as the
(11:38):
whole agency and sometimes theiragency doesn't even, um, work in
any fossil fuel, um, companiesmm-hmm
holding company might have somein, you know, in a different
agency.
So it's something that, youknow, again, we're, we're
putting the pressure on and ithelps that, you know, because
climate change is somethingthat's gonna increasingly affect
people.
(11:59):
The younger you are, you know,people who are typically in the
C-suite, uh, tend to be moreimmune to, you know, climate
change personally affectingthem, whether, because, um, the
color of their skin or the age,or because you know, how much
money they have in their bankaccount.
But, you know, the further downyou get, the more likely it is
that climate change is somethingthat's going to affect them.
(12:21):
So it always helps to, you know,when we could say to a junior
copywriter, an ad agency, like,Hey, you should go talk, you
should reach out to, you know,the, the CEO of your office or
the chief, you know, the global,the global, uh, chief creative
officer, because they're an allythey're on the same page as you,
they, they agree with you.
And it always helps to havefriends in high places when
(12:42):
you're trying to kind of reforma system from the inside, which
is what a lot of people aretrying to do right now, you know
, across the nation in theworld.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
There were a couple of articles in ad week, last
week, uh, um, that one of themwas an editorial perspective
from a woman who worked atEdelman.
She was a senior vice presidentfor, I think, you know, she had
worked 20 years in, in publicrelations and she decided to
leave.
And this was a few years ago,she left her job, uh, because
she was dissatisfied with theway Edelman was approaching
(13:10):
their fossil fuel clients and,and the way that they were
handled this issue.
But my question is going backto, you know, senior people and
old man bill Bach used to say aprincipal, isn't a principal
until it costs you money, arepeople really willing to quit
their jobs over this?
Have you seen anybody willing tosay I'm out other than, um,
(13:32):
other than the Edelman?
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, I think anecdotally, yes.
Um, I've definitely seen peoplewho this is part of it.
Um, I think that, you know,there's a lot of other factors
at play here and I'm sure we'regonna get into, you know, the
remote work possible when wetalk about we Rosie.
But, um, for me personally, um,
(13:56):
that like climate change and,and, you know, agency stances on
both their clients and, youknow, the clients I've been
working on has something that,you know, it definitely impacted
me.
Like, I didn't feel like I wasmaking the world a better place.
Um, so I know that other peoplehave taken this into account as
far as it being the only reason.
Like, I don't know.
I don't know if I know any offthe top of my head say like,
(14:17):
yeah, I was making one 50 ayear.
I, you know, I'd been with thisagency for 10 years and they
wouldn't, they wouldn't, uh,leave their fossil fuel clients.
So I left them.
I don't know that we've, we'vehit that point yet, but I think
that's something that's coming.
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (14:30):
What will it take?
What, what would it take?
Speaker 3 (14:33):
I mean, there was a quote somewhere and I'm, I'm
slightly par making it wrong.
Sally it's climate change issomething you see about on a
it's something you see on ascreen until you see it
happening in real life.
Yeah.
Um, I think it, it was like, itwas a video of these people.
I think, I think it was, it wasa tweet, it was a video of these
people on, um, on like a carferry and they had been
(14:57):
evacuated in Greece and thewhole like, sky, like it's just
on fire.
And it's at contrast with likethe, the fluorescent light of
this car ferry.
And everyone just kind of likestanding there, like watching
this horrific thing happeningmm-hmm
as more and more of those thingshappen, which, you know, as
we've seen over the past fewyears, like, yeah, we don't get
a crazy hurricane in every cityevery year or a crazy fire
(15:20):
happening in every part of theworld every year, but as more
and more of them happen andpeople, you know, start to wake
up and realize like, Hey, wow, Ihave two kids.
And, you know, if it's, youknow, expon really getting worse
for me and what's it gonna belike for them.
Right.
I think you're gonna see a lotmore people willing to willing
to, um, take a stance there.
(15:40):
I, I definitely know people whohave avoided, you know, as I
mentioned, I, I, you know, I'veturned down, work on tobacco.
Clients have turned down, workon, um, us government agencies,
uh, military agencies.
Um, I know people are startingto put that into their internal
calculus, like, oh, like Idon't, I'm not, I don't want to
work on this.
Um, I don't want to interviewfor this.
(16:01):
I know people within agenciesthat do work on this, uh, sort
of stuff, B, B, D O WundermanThompson.
Oh, will be.
I know we have lots of storieswhere people have been asked if
they wanna work on a particularfossil fuel client and they've
turned that down and, you know,continued to work at the agency
in other places.
Yeah.
But I think, I think it is gonnabe something because, you know,
when frankly, when we were kids,yes, climate changes are already
(16:23):
happening, but it wasn'tsomething, something that, um,
people thought about every day.
And increasingly, as peoplethink about this thing on a, a
weekly daily basis, it will besomething that affects their
entire calculus, like where theylive, where they work, who they
end up with, if they decide tohave kids.
Yeah.
All of those things, because itis such a, it is gonna be such
(16:45):
an omnipresent part of our life.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Sure, sure.
You know, I live in Seattle andone of there's, um, this is a
very politically active town.
There are a lot of protests, uh,very regularly for a lot of
different causes.
And when the environmental, um,movement wants to protest fossil
fuels, they go to JP Morganchase.
They go to chase bank, basicallythe downtown bank location.
So my question is because JPMorgan chase obviously funds,
(17:10):
you know, provides loans and,and financial for a lot of this
fossil fuel companies.
So is it a slippery slope forcream creatives where you say,
okay, we don't want, we don'twant agencies to advertise the
banks or gas stations or otherfolks that are part of this
ecosystem of fossil fuels.
Is that a legitimate part ofclean creatives mission or, or
(17:31):
not
Speaker 3 (17:33):
At this moment right now, we're focused on the worst
of the worst, which is mm-hmm
clients.
I think as, as the, as thatmission continues to go forward,
if we can get, if we can, as Isaid, we, fossil fuel clients
are responsible for 75% ofcarbon emissions.
If we can make a sizable dent inthat, that will have outsize
(17:56):
effects on the total amount ofcarbon emissions.
Are there other people who areconnected to, um, to the, to
that, to that industry?
Absolutely.
Whether they're banks orshipping companies, or, you
know, asked fashion, they allhave a part to play, but as we,
as a society, as a, as a, as aspecies move away from fossil
(18:17):
fuels, all of those other thingsare much smaller problems to
solve, at least in relation.
And, you know, as we movetowards clean energy, towards
green energy, all of that willwe'll have a change downstream.
Mm-hmm,
we're, we're choosing to startat the biggest, most obvious
target who's responsible for themost.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Right.
Got it.
So there was, uh, last week, uh,also in the news, a recent, uh,
peer reviewed article in thejournal called climactic change,
uh, came out.
It was, uh, some, I think it wassome Boston university
researchers.
And what they showed is that PRfirms are a key organizational
actor in climate politics.
Now we tend to sort ofcompartmentalize I've worked in
(19:00):
the end industry a long time.
We tend to compartmentalizepolitical marketing and
advertising from consumermarketing and advertising.
Uh, I guess my question is, isclean creatives gonna branch out
into climate policy and also tryto, in fact, you know, we got a
big election coming up, midtermelection in, in November.
Are you getting people to, to,uh, think about, you know, the
(19:22):
fact that advertising and, andpublic relations firms influence
politicians, they influence thepolicy, they influence the laws
that are perpetuating thisclimate climate change.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah.
I mean, we, we actually arealready doing that.
So there's, uh, there's been anumber of, um, city governments
and state governments that havestarted to pursue lawsuits or,
um, you know, um, kind of panelsinto looking how advertising in
PR has helped, um, the fossilfuel industry.
(19:53):
Uh, right now we're working with, um, RO representative roun and
to kind of investigate this.
And I know that I forget exactlythe name of the committee, but,
uh, representative Maloney asgoing to subpoena oil companies,
ask them about the work they'vedone with over 180 agencies.
So we definitely are letting afire there because I mean,
(20:15):
that's where that's honestlywhere a lot of the money that
comes outta fossil fuelcompanies goes is towards
affecting, you know, governmentat the state and state local and
federal level, like around theworld.
Um, so we're, we're definitelytrying to, you know, do our part
that obviously we don't havebillions of dollars to play
around and, and lobbying money,but, you know, we're always
(20:37):
trying to punch above our weightanyways.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Sure, sure.
Well, it sounds like that's avery big, um, part of where I
think a lot of attitudes in thead industry are going, people
want more control over the kindof work they do.
They want to have more controlover where they do it.
And that leads me into the next,uh, section of your work, which
(20:59):
is you are a creativestrategist, or excuse me, a
sorry, creative recruiter for,we are rosy.
Tell us a little bit about weRosie, we've talked a little bit
about it on, uh, previous adchatter, uh, episodes, but, uh,
talk to us a little bit aboutwhat it is.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah.
So we are, Rosie is basically a,a new kind of way to recruit
talent.
Uh, we, we think of ourselves asa marketplace for freelancers
versus something like a, a, youknow, a creative circle or, you
know, another kind of talentagency, which is kind of
existing to kind of matchcompanies with talent and then
(21:35):
kind of steps back mm-hmm
Um, as somebody who spent eightplus years in advertising, I
worked with a lot of differentstaffing agencies.
Um, and you know, there weredefinitely some I liked and
some, I didn't like some, I felt, uh, kind of like a cog in the
machine or, you know, just anumber.
Yeah.
There's, I'm sure many other
(21:55):
to being reached out to, by arecruiter who had no interest in
knowing who you were and offeredyou a role that had little or
nothing to do with your skillsetor background.
I still got those emails.
So I I'm sure
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I'm what people do too.
I'm a freelance copywriter.
I get them all the time.
I get'em every I get'em everyweek.
So what is the, what is theprocess for, for becoming a rosy
?
And I think a, I think everybodyis a rosy if they join, right?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah.
So we have a free community.
Uh, it's free to join.
Just kind of gives you a littlebit information about, about
yourself, everything from likethe, um, kind of your skillset,
your background, what you'relooking for next, uh, the amount
of hours you're trying to workagain, we're trying to, we're
trying to promote freelancing asa model remote work, um, full
flex, like all those sorts ofthings are, are, are what we're,
(22:41):
what we're aiming for.
Uh, which means that we're alittle bit more high touch when
it comes to, um, our Rosie'sthan, uh, you know, a staffing
agency might be because wetypically don't place full-time
roles, we place freelancers.
So we might get people workingwith us again and again, and
again, I think, I thinksomewhere, I think the, the
current record is somewhere wellon the teens for, for somebody
(23:04):
who's worked, you know, 13, 14,15 plus, um, through us mm-hmm,
their staffing agency remainwith the same employer and then
kind of succeed
Yeah.
Uh, so we're, we're, we'rereally great because I think we,
we developed this model and thisrapport with our Rosies, we, you
(23:26):
know, as somebody who was astrategist creative strategist
before kind of do do thesethings, I, I work a lot with
copywriters with art directors,creative directors, sometimes
like these really niche roles.
And, you know, sometimes Idon't, I don't get it right,
because I wasn't necessarily avisual designer and people were
like, oh, that's not mybackground.
I'm like, okay, well, tell me alittle bit more about what is
(23:46):
your background, so I can filethat away.
So, you know, we are betterequipped, not just me, but our
whole team to find a role that'sa little bit closer to what
you're looking for in thefuture.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So if someone signs up to be a rosy, does that
exclusively, um, bind them toyou?
Are they still free to go aboutother, uh, freelance op
opportunities or, or, or isthere, is there difference, I
guess I'm trying to figure outthe difference between the R
woosie model and let's say thecreative circle model, what is,
you know, what's the advantage.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Yeah.
I think, I think they're freeto, well, not, I think they're
definitely free to pursue anyother freelancing opportunities,
whether they're, you know, do itthrough another agency or
through a company or throughcontacts, wherever they are
throughout the industry.
We have, mm-hmm,
somebody and they're, you know,already working somewhere or
they have a, they picked up anew contract and, you know, I
(24:38):
say, Hey, like, you know, let meknow when you're available and
I'll reach back out then, uh,potentially, or, you know, feel
free to reach out if it doesn'twork out.
Um, I think it's just another,another way that freelancers or
people who are looking to pickup a little bit of freelancing
on the side of a full-time job,uh, just another way that they
can another, another tool tofind freelance opportunities.
(24:59):
And, you know, as I said, Ithink that we're not, I think, I
mean, I, having been, somebody'sbeen on the other side, like
we're done definitely differentthan every other staffing agency
model, because we're focusedexclusively on freelancers and
we have a very active role.
It's not just a database forcompanies to look through.
Right.
Or we have the database and wehave people who are actively
looking through for talent.
(25:20):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Is it, so who are you, who areyou working with in terms of
agencies and companies andbrands?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Um, yeah, I mean, we're, we're placing talent at
some of the top tech companies,uh, in the world, uh, everything
from Amazon to Microsoft, toGoogle, to Twitter, um, to
Facebook.
Um, and we're working with also,uh, a number of different, uh,
ad agencies as well.
I've, I've been lucky enough totalent or at least attempt to
place talent at a, at a numberof different companies.
(25:51):
And it's been, it's been reallyawesome because we, you know, we
have a, such a, such a highlevel of talent within our
database of, of Rosie freeanswers.
So it's awesome to see them kindof be able to work on these
really awesome projects and addto their book and continue
growing their skill set.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Great.
So, you know, at this pointwe're recording this since
December, 2021 and the storylast year, of course, in COVID
was tens of thousands of peoplegetting laid off in the ad
industry.
And because of the, just was sofear of the unknown this year,
uh, all the reports are, there'sa big hiring, there's just
(26:29):
competition for talent.
Um, what are you noticing as acreative recruiter in terms of
what employers are asking for,and also what creatives want?
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Um, I, I mean, I think at least, again, speaking
personally from my, my, my ownperspective, I think that prior
to COVID happening, a lot ofpeople weren't sure that they
could work from home and theyweren't sure if they could
freelance, uh, people preferredkind of like, you know, the
safety of the office and kind oflike what, what they, what the
(27:04):
known quantity was of working inan office, having a full-time
job, having benefits.
Um, I think, you know, COVIDforcing people to, to work from
home, um, also forcing peoplewho got laid off to kind of have
to figure it out and kind ofthink on their feet.
I think it opened up a lot ofopportunities, uh, that you see,
you know, kind of kind out thisyear with the, you know, the
great resignation quote unquotehappening, uh, you know, with a
(27:28):
lot of people saying, why am Iworking?
Why am I working in an officewhen I can be at home and spend
time with my kids, um, and dothe same amount of work, maybe
potentially even make more moneyand maybe even work less that I
think we're also seeing a greatdecoupling, uh, at the center of
all this of people, um, notbeing as tied to working, you
know, 50, 60 hour work weekstraveling to, and from an
(27:52):
office.
And, you know, having that besuch a major part of that
identity, they're, they'reseeing the value and maybe,
maybe earning just slightlyless, but working half as much,
you know, especially if youfactor in commute time, I spend
time more time on activities,friends, family, um, whatever it
is that actually, you know,fuels them mm-hmm
and, you know, in our industrywhere there is such a need for
(28:15):
freelancers, always, um, people,people, you know, if they've
worked at an agency, if they'veworked at a big, big company, if
they've worked in any kind ofcreative team, they've almost
certainly been exposed to otherpeople freelancing.
So it's not kind of somethingthat's unknown.
And I think more and more peopleha have seen the appeal of, you
know, for whatever reason, youknow, as, as, as I just said,
there's definitely a lot of themout there and maybe it's a
(28:37):
combination, but, uh, people areseeing that it's, it's something
that they can do and they cansucceed in and, you know, I've
been, and really happy to seepeople who have, you know,
decided to take the leap for thefirst time.
Yeah.
And be able to do it, even ifthey've just, you know, got the
interview and didn't, didn't endup doing it.
Um, just, you know, taking thosefirst steps in order to, um, see
if it's something that's forthem.
(28:57):
Got
Speaker 2 (28:58):
It.
And what are the employerslooking for?
Are there certain skills,certain, certain tactics, are
they looking for, you know,social creatives, viral of
people with certain backgrounds?
What, what is what's in demandthese days?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Uh, everything.
I mean, I, I filled, I've filledpersonally all sorts of roles
and I'm just working part-timein it.
I know our team has just filleda lot of different ones as well.
Um, there's really, you know,because as I said, I mentioned
prior, prior to being arecruiter and working for the
recruits as a nonprofit, um, Iwas in advertising for a long
(29:33):
time, but mainly focused on, youknow, my own kind of creative
strategy, social strategy,digital strategy type, uh,
fields have been reallyinteresting to see all these
different, um, all thesedifferent job descriptions from
various companies.
And sometimes from the samecompany, like getting very
different ones depending on theteam.
Um, and learning a little bitmore about all these like kind
(29:54):
of niche skills, uh, thatcompanies looking for.
I think one thing that's that Ican say is that company, these
companies love, um, these likereally like interesting niche
skills, um, and you know, kindof extracurricular type
activities.
Um, I think portfolios arealways super important.
Uh, if people have theopportunity to take, um, little
(30:15):
classes or courses, um, to, toget new certifications or
different skill sets.
So I think that's somethingthat's always huge, cuz you
never know when a project mightcome through that needs, you
know, that they're 99% fit for,but because they don't have one
thing, they might not beeligible.
Um, I think, yeah, updating yourportfolio, having a great
portfolio is huge.
I, I think for me, like, becauseI've been in the industry so
(30:38):
long, I could look at somebody'sLinkedIn and kind of make a
Snapchat, um, on, based ontheir, you know, the agencies
that they've worked at and theclients they've worked on, I
could say, oh yeah, this personhas it because I don't even need
to look at their portfoliobecause I know that that agency
probably already thoroughlyvetted them with, you know,
multiple in-person interviewsand they worked there for four
(30:58):
years.
I don't need, I don't need to dothe work that's already been
done.
Right.
Um, our clients don'tnecessarily have that
background.
So, um, yeah.
Having, having a slick, slicklooking portfolio, um, website
and you know, having greatexamples of your work there is
definitely important.
But yeah, I, I don't thinkthere's any kind of limit to, to
what I, what I've seen or what Iwill see because you know, we're
(31:20):
to Rosie is definitely growingand we're gonna continue to get,
uh, lots of new opportunitiesfor creatives.
Wonderful.
And everyone else creative.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Oh, that's right.
Well, you know, I think it's, uh, Stephanie Olson who started
it, she was a media.
Um, she was in media, wasn'tshe, before she started this, it
always occurred to me that, or Ialways thought that we are,
Rosie was more of a mediaplatform or media buyers and
playing, but you know, inaddition to the creatives,
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Um, I know at least I, I, I have, I have Stephanie
filed in my head as having worksadvertising.
I believe it was in media, butI'm, I'm not a hundred percent.
Maybe
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I've got that completely wrong.
It wouldn't be the first time.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
No, it's, it's, it's fine.
Uh, I do know that she's an, anawesome leader for a company and
, you know, you a being afounder woman, founder, um,
she's bootstrapped the wholething.
It's, it's really awesome tosee, you know, even in the six
months or so, I've been, I'vebeen on as a creative recruiter
and then, you know, the previoussix months when I was working as
(32:18):
, um, as kind of an editor withthem, um, just to see how much
the company has grown, not justin personnel and talent, um, but
also, you know, the technologywe're using and the, the tools
we're using on the inside.
Um, but yeah, I mean to, just toanswer that last part, we're,
we're definitely placing a lotof media people.
In fact, that's probably the, inmy opinion, the, just about the
hottest part of our company isplacing media talent.
(32:39):
Um, especially in that industry,I think there is even more, even
more than like creative agenciesand tech companies, a aid earth
of talent available.
So if you're listening to thisand you're a media person and,
and you're thinking your job isnot that great, and you're
thinking about freelancing,please come join our community
because
two.
(33:00):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Wow.
So, okay.
That's a great way to wrap itup.
Joe, if anybody wants to findout about clean creatives or we
are Rosie, where do they go?
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Uh, well for either, yeah, I would just go to our dot
coms.
Uh, you can also find us onTwitter or Instagram, uh, or
what have you for cleancreatives.
Uh, I'm definitely one of thepeople that'll answer the DM, so
feel free to feel free to DM us.
Uh, we're usually pretty goodabout responding.
Uh, we Rosie, I'm not on thesocial team there, but I know
that they're, um, they're superon top of things and they're
(33:31):
putting out great stuff.
So, um, feel free to DM themwith a specific question or just
add us, hopefully somebody willget back to you on either side,
but, uh, yeah, we have lots,lots of different, uh, ways to
get in, in touch with either ofus.
So
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Terrific.
Terrific, Joe, thank you foryour time.
Uh, it was a pleasure to talk toyou and it sounds like you are
on the forefront of a couple ofreally, uh, unique organizations
that are certainly changingthings up in the industry.
It's uh, it's, it's interestingto watch.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, it's really, it's reallyawesome to be part of, uh, these
two movements that and companiesthat are, I think, well,
movements would probably be thebetter word that are, I, I think
helping to make our industrybetter and you know, in doing so
the world a better place.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Great.
Thank you, friends andcolleagues.
This has been ad chatter from adpulp.com.
I'm Dan gold.
Geier we wish a good holidayseason at, and we'll be back
soon with more great people andgreat ad chatter
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Engineered by Dan gold in Seattle, Washington.
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