December 12, 2024 • 38 mins
In the aftermath of an arson attack on the Adass Israel Synagogue in Melbourne, David Bryfman interviews two Melbourne-based Jewish educators Itzik Sztokman and Marc Light. Together, they explore the emotional and educational ripple effects of this act of antisemitism on their local Jewish community.
Itzik reflects on the growing sense of unease among Jewish students and families, emphasizing the need for resilience, open dialogue, and proud visibility of Jewish identity in the face of adversity. Marc shares how his school balances heightened security measures with the essential mission of fostering a joyous and meaningful Jewish educational experience.
This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben.
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media.
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Bryfman (00:00):
We're recording today's episode of adapting on
December 9, 2024 and over thecourse of the last few seasons
of adapting, I can honestly saythat I've learned something and
gained something from everyepisode. I always choose guests
and topics that I findinteresting and, more
importantly, that I think areimportant and necessary for the
Jewish educational ecosystem asa whole, but sometimes
(00:21):
conversations are a bit morepersonal, like the ones which
I'll be having today. Theseconversations are about my
hometown, Melbourne, Australia,and it's been in the news lately
for all the wrong reasons. Andeven though I've been living in
the States now for over 20years, there is something
incredibly distressing anddisheartening and sad seeing
Melbourne and the MelbourneJewish community in the news and
(00:43):
in my social media feeds in theway that it's being portrayed
today. So this episode ofadapting is being released
literally just one week afterthe arson attack on the Adas
Israel congregation inMelbourne. Since then, the
attack has been declared aterrorist attack, and the
perpetrators are still at large,and there is still significant
political fallout taking placein Australia as a result of this
(01:04):
incident and many others. Butadapting is not a podcast about
politics. It's a podcast abouteducation, although, as I've
often said, all education isultimately political. But before
introducing today's guests, somewords of context, Australia and
Melbourne specifically, is alarge Holocaust survivor
community, and the trauma of theShoah runs deep, and it has
(01:25):
almost certainly been passeddown generationally. Australia
is also a strongly Zionistcommunity, and although recent
studies have shown some changingpatterns in the relationship of
Israel to the youngergenerations, the bonds between
Australian Jewry and Israel runvery, very deep. Melbourne also
has a strong ethos of Jewish DaySchool attendance, and although
this number also appears to beslightly declining, some reports
(01:47):
still cite a 60% attendance ofschool aged students attending
Jewish day schools. Now, theMelbourne Jewish community is
also very concentrated, at leasttraditionally So, and the dust
Israel congregation is in theheart of this often self
described, affectionately andyes, ironically, self referred
to the Jewish ghetto, the A duskcommunity is by no means
(02:07):
mainstream in terms of MelbourneJewry, but they are certainly a
visible and dynamic force in alandscape of Jewish communal
life that is known for itsdiversity. Now, since October 7,
some would say longer, antisemitism has been on the rise in
Australia and specifically inMelbourne. And while my own
estimation is that many of theseincidents, including rallies,
protests and often devolvinginto graffiti and verbal and
(02:31):
sometimes even physicalharassment and assaults, they
might have begun as Israel oranti Israel activities, the
distinction between antisemitism and anti Israel
activities has been blurred, ifnot completely disintegrated.
And the irony is not lost onanyone. The dust community,
which was attacked last week, isis not identified as a Zionist
community, obviously, a strongJewish one. Now you don't need
(02:54):
me or adapting to tell you moreabout what's happening in
Australia right now. There aremany other sources you can go to
for that. What I wanted to dotoday was find out how educators
are responding to these recentand horrific events. So I called
Two of my former colleagues,both of whom I have deep and
personal connections with, toask them about life as a Jewish
educator in Melbourne today,just one week after this
(03:16):
terrorist attack on a synagogueliterally down the street from
both of their institutions. Itssix document is the executive
principal of YouTube, the UnitedJewish education board, which
provides Jewish education forstudents in non Jewish schools.
And Mark light is the principalof the King David Jewish Day
School in Melbourne. They canand they will speak for
themselves during this episode,but what I do want all listeners
(03:39):
to pay attention to is how thesetwo experienced and thoughtful
Jewish educators are respondingto this particular crisis,
because it's beyond theheadlines, beyond the rhetoric
and the politics, all of whichhave a place in societal
discourse. Because at the heartof their responses, filled with
their sadness and even sometrepidation and fear, there is a
deep commitment to education, totheir students and to the Jewish
(04:01):
people. Now the only other thingthat I'll say before handing it
over to Itzik and then a fewminutes later into the
conversation you'll hear fromMark is that their messages,
like all good educators, areultimately filled with hope, and
despite the anti Semites, or inspite of the anti semitism,
Jewish education, Jewish pride,and the Jewish people will not
only survive in Melbourne, butthrive there for generations to
(04:23):
come. And now, in an episodewhich I never thought that I'd
have to record, it's over toItzik and then to mark for their
reflections as Jewish educatorson life in Melbourne, Australia,
after the terrorist attackagainst the Adas Israel
congregation, against the Jewishcommunity and against Australian
society as a whole, this isadapting the future of Jewish
education, a podcast from theJewish education project where
(04:46):
we explore the big questions,challenges and successes that
define Jewish education. I'mDavid Brafman.
Hey, there. It's sick. It's goodto speak with you. We've known
each other for quite a while,and I think it's a bit
unfortunate that it's takenevents like the ones in the last
(05:06):
couple of weeks to bring ustogether on adapting.
Unknown (05:09):
Yes. Thank you. Thanks.
It's good to catch up again. Letthe listeners know
David Bryfman (05:13):
what your initial thoughts and reactions were when
you first heard about the arsonattack on the dust Israel
congregation.
Unknown (05:20):
Look, I think probably the worst kind of indication is
that it wasn't shock, and Ithink that was something that
actually shocked a lot of us,that when we heard that there
was an arson attack on a shul,of course, it's a shocking
event, but we were not sosurprised. Things have been
going a little bit downwards inAustralia for a little while
(05:42):
now, and the fact that a shulwas was attacked by an Arsen
attack was, you know, justsomething that's like, Yeah,
well, that probably, you know,would have happened after
everything else.
David Bryfman (05:52):
So that's not a great state of affairs for for
Melbourne Jewish community to beliving in. Do you feel like
you're living under constantthreat or constant fear.
Unknown (06:01):
Look, I don't think it's constant threat physically.
I think that physically, wehaven't been under constant
threat. It's more aboutemotionally feeling comfortable.
As Jewish people in Australia,that's where we've been under
threat. I mean, there, there's alot of talk about that, people
use the word I feel unsafe, andthat's sort of a word that's not
(06:25):
really defined so well. And Idon't think we feel unsafe that
we are physically in danger,notwithstanding the arson attack
on the shore, I don't thinkwalking around the streets we
feel like we're physically indanger, but we do feel unsafe.
We feel like we could beapproached and verbally abused
at any moment. So
David Bryfman (06:45):
you work with educators, and you work with the
educators who work with theyoung people who attend public
schools and private schools, notthe Jewish schools in Melbourne.
So what's the message you'resending those kids? Because, I
mean, they're living on thefront face of interacting with
the broader Australian society,and something like this must be
very unsettling for them. Sowhat was the message you sent
(07:05):
out on Friday to your teachersand students you work with?
Well, I
Unknown (07:09):
think for us, we do a couple of different jobs. So we
work in the primary schoolspace, so that's five year olds
to 11 year olds. And then wework in the high school space,
which is our teens, ourteenagers for the primary school
programs, we really havecommunicated with parents on
several occasions since October7 that the best place for
discussions to happen withchildren that are under 11 years
(07:32):
old is at home, and so that'sthe messaging that we sent
again. Our parents know theirkids far better than we do. They
know their sensibilities andwhat they're sensitive about,
and we really message to themrepeatedly and encourage them to
have conversations at home. Andif conversations do come up at
school, you know, we address itas quickly as we can, and then
(07:55):
we try to move on in our highschool space, it's a lot
different. We really work on amuch more informal or
experiential basis. We overseeBBYO in Australia as well, so
we're very much in the teenspace in that regard. And there
we have, you know, a lot ofinteraction with kids and a lot
of discussion about what's goingon in Israel. Our educators are
(08:17):
really encouraged to discussanything that the kids want to
discuss, and that's what we do.
There's not really a script tofollow. One thing that we are
doing, which is, is very is verydifferent, is that we do run
what we call our AmbassadorsProgram, and so we have a cohort
of teenagers that we aretraining to talk about who they
are and how they are Jewish andwhat that means. So there's a
(08:37):
little bit of an extra emphasison that, on that kind of, you
know, self, being able to talkabout yourself as a Jewish
person. Are you
David Bryfman (08:46):
able to give some examples, maybe, of some of what
some of the teenagers haveexperienced, I'm guessing, like,
what's the extent of the antisemitism that some of them have
been exposed to in the last 14months?
Unknown (08:57):
Yeah, so it's really interesting. Our teens are
incredibly resilient. They areat government schools and non
Jewish schools, and so they areat the forefront of being the
recipients of all sorts of talkand discussion. And they're also
incredibly proud. So they'llwalk around with them again,
Magen David on or an Israeli tshirt, and they'll do that quite
(09:18):
proudly. And they classify allof this as banter. I don't know
if banter is a word used inAmerica or not, but it's you
know. They just think it's, it'syou know, kids talking, you
know, to annoy other kids, andthey don't take it so seriously.
So I think they're incrediblyresilient. They're not
experiencing any physical dangerat all. And occasionally they do
(09:40):
get confronted with a proPalestine, you know, advocate at
their school, and they are verymuch seen as as Israel. So our
Jewish kids at school are seenas Israel. So if someone has a
problem with Israel, theyreflect that problem onto that
student. And so our studentsneed to sort of stand up and
defend. Themselves in that way.
But again, it's it's somethingthat's very verbal at the
(10:02):
moment. So
David Bryfman (10:04):
you're touching on something which I think is
quite fundamental and maybemisleading given the media
coverage of what's taking placein Australia. Because what we're
hearing internationally is thatthis anti semitism, or this anti
Israel attitude, often becominganti semitic in nature, is
pervasive and impactingeverybody. And you're saying,
(10:24):
hang on a second. That's notexactly what's taking place.
There are incidents out there,but our kids dealing with it in
ways that the media is probablynot not describing on an ongoing
basis. It seems to be a bit of adisconnect, especially I read
somewhere today that oneAmerican organization has given
a Travel Warning to Jewstraveling to Australia now on
(10:44):
the ground. What are you andyour more importantly, I think,
for this discussion, what arethe kids that you're involved
with actually seeing andexperiencing on the ground in
Melbourne? So
Unknown (10:52):
I think that, I think the massive difference is that
in Melbourne, 60% of the Jewishkids go to Jewish schools, and
so they're going to have atotally different experience.
They're going to feel a lot moreconfronted by this new wave of
anti semitism. And I think whatwe need to understand about the
kids that go to non Jewishschools and have gone to non
Jewish schools for their wholelives, they live a non Jewish
(11:14):
environment all the time, and sothey're not feeling this level
of newness of what's going on inAustralia. I think the way you
described it is really true. Itreally is confronting in a way
it never has been before. But Ithink the kids at non Jewish
schools have this higher levelof resilience. Are
David Bryfman (11:32):
they proud of being Jewish and are they proud
of being Australian, given allthat's going on in the world?
Unknown (11:37):
Yeah. Look, I think definitely our kids, the kids
that connect to our programs,feel incredibly proud to be
Jewish. I think they're startingto question how they feel about
being Australian. To be honest,I think it takes a little time
for kids to start understandingwhat they're feeling but I feel
like there's a sentiment ofembarrassment that these kind of
(11:58):
things can happen in Australiathat you know, the pro Palestine
lobby can block streets andtransportation in the city every
Sunday, and that just keeps, youknow, going on unchecked. You
know that social media is justrife with anti Israel and anti
Jewish stuff. I think they'refeeling, you know, that
Australia is changing. It'sinteresting because
David Bryfman (12:19):
my questions to you began with talking about
anti semitic incidences, andspecifically the the arson
attack at a synagogue. You wentpretty straight into to
questions about Israel andPalestine and and the Middle
East conflicts, especially in apost October 7 world. Do you see
that there's been a fundamentalchange in this discourse since
October 7? And I guess thequestion back to you is, if
(12:41):
that's the case, how have youand how has your approach to
Israel education changed as aresult of all that's that's
transpired in the last 14months? Look,
Unknown (12:50):
there is no doubt that there's an enormous shift since
October 7, and I think that whatthe Jewish community is is
really realizing andunderstanding is that there is
no difference between an antiIsrael sentiment and anti
semitic sentiment in the in theeyes of the rest of the
community, not the Jewishcommunity, they're seen as the
(13:10):
same. You know, personally, Idon't think that's a bad thing.
I think it's, it's true andrealistic. That's my own, my
own, you know, philosophicalbackground. But I don't think
that, yeah, I think that thatseriously, there been a massive
change since October 7. Look, wereally feel it with our Israeli
community. There's quite a largeIsraeli expat community in
(13:33):
Australia and in Melbourne, andthey also, for the first time in
their lives, have felt antisemitism, and felt it through
the lens of anti Israel. So it'sbeen a it's been a massive, a
massive change
David Bryfman (13:48):
as the leader of Jewish education in Melbourne,
like, what's one message thatyou want to send to Jewish
educators all around the world,knowing that when they now think
of Melbourne, they're thinkingof of all of these incidences,
and especially the the arsonattack. But what's the message
you want to send to to all ofthem? Well,
Unknown (14:05):
I think it's one that really we reflect from our our
teens, and that is just beingproud. We're not cowering, we're
not hiding away. And I thinkthat, think about it, the way I
grew up as a teenager inMelbourne, one of the things I
always heard say to me was, takeyour hat. So I was religious, I
wore a kippah, and every time Iwent out, the message was, take
(14:28):
your hat. And I think that theone message that we need to
project to ourselves and to theworld is that, you know, we need
to be proud of who we are and weneed to stop hiding. I think
another thing that's happened inMelbourne a lot is that every
public event supporting Israelhas been behind a wall, you
know, so we hide behind thisneed for security, and this is
(14:51):
quite contentious, I wouldimagine that we hide behind this
need for security, and thereforewe're not seen. And. I think if
you're not seen, then you don'texist. It's much easier to be
hateful to a people that youdon't see. And I think the big
message that we have, and amessage that we really see
through our kids, is is that weneed to be loud and proud
(15:15):
passionate Jews, and we need tobe out there. We need to wear
our magendavids. We need to wearIsraeli T shirts. We need to be
really proud of who we are, andwe need to stop the hiding
because it's not serving us anygood. I've
David Bryfman (15:28):
asked this of all of my guests, I want to ask you
as well, who's an educator inyour life that's been majorly
transformative for you, someonethat you want to pay tribute to
and acknowledge in this forum.
Wow. Look,
Unknown (15:41):
I I'm not going to talk about you, David, because you're
here. I look, I will talk aboutyou for a moment, though, just
just, we're colleagues, andwe're the same age, and we went
through the youth movementstogether, sort of, look, I think
that, that you know, watchingsomeone like yourself is has
been incredibly inspiring. I'mjust going to say that, but I'm
(16:03):
going to move back to to my ownhigh school experience. And
there was a teacher who probablytransformed my life, and I won't
get into it too much, but thebottom line is, he just believed
in me. I wasn't doingparticularly well academically.
I wasn't, you know, you know,had my own challenges, my own
learning difficulties, dyslexia,ADHD, no one ever diagnosed it
(16:26):
back then, you know, and Iwasn't doing great, and he just
sat down with me and just showedme that he believed in me. And I
think in educators, that's whatwe need to do with our students.
We have to form these, you know,these, these special
relationships with our students,and we need to really show them
that they are awesome people andthat we believe that they are
capable of anything.
David Bryfman (16:48):
Yeah, I appreciate the answers both of
them, both the personal one, butalso the broader message. And
for our listeners, if it's notobvious, it's sick and I have
known each other for manydecades now, not giving away our
ages completely, and it's sortof indicative that it's taken
this particular week of eventsfor people literally, to come to
me and say, Who can you speak tofrom live, from Melbourne,
(17:08):
Australia, to tell you about howbad things are down under at the
moment for the the Jewishcommunity. And it's a bit um,
humbling and sobering to hearyour reflections that like,
yeah, this stuff is bad, but itdoesn't really have to be the
things which define thecommunity. I think that's a
that's a tribute to you and toyour to your colleagues,
Unknown (17:26):
thanks. Look, I think that's true, but there's an
enormous fear in the community,like I know my my mum said to me
the other day, this is scary.
And so my mum's the daughter ofHolocaust survivors, and she's
scared about this. And then mymother in law, who has lived in
Australia most her life, she'sbeen telling us that we should
all think about making Aliyahand that, you know, she doesn't
(17:47):
think that there's a future forus here. And then my daughter,
who David, you know quite well,she's making Aliyah next month,
and she's doing that because shewants to get into academia at a
Melbourne University, and shefeels like, as a Zionist, she
just won't get a job. Soalthough kids are doing well and
they're resilient, and althoughthe community is strong and will
(18:09):
will rise above this and be evenstronger for it. And you know,
there are cracks, there areserious cracks that that that
need attention. It's not like itused to be, and we're suffering
a bit here.
David Bryfman (18:25):
Yeah, I get the real feeling of this story is
only beginning to unfold, andwe're going to look upon this
particular point in time as areal as a real turning point for
what's long been regarded as oneof the most vibrant, successful,
and I would say, integratedcommunities in the Jewish
Diaspora. And I think just tothank you for sharing your
insights as an educator, and Ithink we'll need to follow up in
the near future and see whattranspires in the upcoming
(18:47):
months and years. So it's thanksso much for joining us on
adapting today. Thanks, David,thanks. And now we're going to
turn over to Mark light, theprincipal of a Jewish Day School
in Melbourne, to talk about thesame issues, but from a very
different perspective. So Mark,it's just great to connect with
you now for all of the wrongreasons, I guess. And I think
(19:09):
talking to you, I don't know,it's been a couple of decades
since we last connected as youknow, fellow Jewish educators
involved in a Zionist youthmovement in the times that we're
in, it's a bit, um, it's a bitof a shocking reality check that
it's taken this event of recentdays to bring us back together,
but that sort of sums up theworld in which we live. And I'm
just wanted like, say hi. Howare you? How's your family? It's
(19:29):
good to reconnect, but for allthe wrong reasons, right? Yeah,
Unknown (19:32):
yeah, it is a shame, David. And look, it is lovely to
reconnect, and the family isgreat. It's It's been a long
time, and having had aconnection with you and and your
your late mother, who myIntroduction to Teaching was
sitting in and observing herteach in her media classes way
back when, and then I became themedia teacher after she retired.
(19:55):
So you know, that's amazing, andalso teaching alongside your
sister at. Time. So yeah, we goback a long way, and also to the
youth movement days. And youknow, my second child just
finishing up her commitment tothe same Youth Movement havoc
that we were involved in. Myoldest was very involved as
well. So it's amazing to seethat intergenerational stuff
(20:18):
happen.
David Bryfman (20:19):
So what were your initial thoughts and reactions
when you heard about the arsonattack on the ADAs, Israel
congregation, which has now beendeemed a terrorist attack.
Unknown (20:27):
So I don't want to give you a wrong impression, I'm no
sort of gin junkie or anythinglike that, but I actually
happened to be on my way to thegym early last Friday morning.
We have a intergenerational gymsession that I do with my dad
and my daughter, and I wasdriving separately there from my
daughter, and I saw, as I wasdriving down Glen, I road one of
(20:48):
the main roads in Caulfield. Isaw in the distance flashing
lights and sirens. And thought,Oh, I better drive a different
way. And called my daughter andsaid, Listen, don't go down
Glen. I wrote, take the otherroute. When we arrived at the
gym, my daughter had beenlistening to the radio, and she
said, look, there's been asuspected fire bomb attack on
the dusty rail, sure. And so myheart started beating, and I
(21:12):
jumped straight into action. Andmy initial thoughts were, I've
got school starting in in acouple of hours, and I need to
make sure that everything'ssecure. So rather than sort of
processing anything at anemotional level or thinking
about antiSemitism, I jumpedinto action. Called our security
advisor, got in touch with thecommunity security group to make
sure that our operational needswere covered for the morning and
(21:34):
then throughout the day, as moreand more emerged, there was more
to do. So, you know, draftingcommunications to the staff, to
the community. It happened on aon a Friday, early Friday
morning. So we sort of just hadto get through the day, and then
we had the weekend as more andmore emerged. So that's sort of
my initial reaction. Was jumpingstraight into action.
David Bryfman (21:54):
What's the preparation you've gone through
to get to that? You know,immediate response mode. Sadly,
Unknown (22:00):
this is the world that we live in as a as a Jewish
school, we're always constant tothe threat environment. It is
just a part of reality ofoperating we one of the first
things that I had to confrontedme when I became principal.
Shortly after I became principalin 2014 not too long after, we
received for the first time,advice to bring in armed guards,
(22:24):
which had never been part of theenvironment Australian schools
or in Victorian schools everbefore. And so we went through
some analysis, we got anindependent report to determine
whether it was the appropriatedecision, and ultimately, we
introduce guards for the firsttime alongside all the other
(22:45):
Jewish schools. So it has beensince the very beginning of my
principalship, a very key aspectof our operations. We have a a
standing security committee thatmeets every term to talk about
our security needs. We haveprivate security guards, we have
the security community group, wehave our security advisor, and
(23:07):
we also have a parent SafetyGroup, where parents volunteer
for shifts to stand outside theschool, because they can be the
eyes and ears, and they knowwho's meant to be there and
who's not. And it sounds like abig wall of defense, and that
it's all we think about. This isall about precaution so that we
can live a positive Jewish life.
And so yes, we it's been farmore of my principalship than I
(23:32):
had anticipated, far away fromthinking about Jewish education,
thinking about security. Andreally at the time when we were
bringing in the armed guards,there was a lot around
ballistics and all sorts ofstuff that I'd never know
anything about, and trainingregimes and all the things I'd
never thought of. And I actuallyhad to pinch myself every now
(23:53):
and say, Am I really thinkingabout as an educator having
these conversations? But it is asad reality. There is a threat
environment globally for Jewishinstitutions, and if we take the
steps to be prepared and ready,then we can get it on with our
life.
David Bryfman (24:11):
So Mark You and I have known each other for quite
a while now, and none of thiswas the job description that you
signed up for. None of this iswhy you got into this role. So
how do you now begin to balanceup what it is that you really
want to be doing and what gotyou so involved in all of this
work running in parallel to nowthis almost like this separate
line of business that you haveto really be taken care of all
(24:31):
the time? Yeah,
Unknown (24:32):
it's a great question, but we could extrapolate out.
And there's lots of areas of thebusiness of being a school
principal or head of school toto use different parlance, I
think, where you're where you'reliving, that requires, you know,
a step away from the immediateeducational needs of students.
You're thinking about humanrelations, you're talking about
(24:53):
HR laws, you're talking aboutall sorts of aspects of
compliance and operations andrisk management. And insurance
and all those things. But forme, I just think about
facilitating education for mystudents. And so sometimes when
I'm having these difficultconversations around these
areas, I use a trick that wastaught to me by a colleague,
(25:14):
which is to imagine the virtualstudent, imagine a student who
I'm doing this all for in theroom when I'm having these
conversations, and that's reallygrounding. And brings me back to
the immediacy of why I'm doingthis, which is to facilitate the
development of Jewish identityand holistic education and a
really solid grounding for ourstudents moving into the future.
(25:37):
So
David Bryfman (25:37):
what was the message you told your your
students and the, I guess, theparent body as well on Friday
morning.
Unknown (25:42):
So for me, it was all about the immediacy of their
needs. The main thing they wereworried about was their safety.
So for me, the first thing wasto check was, were our advisors
satisfied with what we had inplace, and did we need
additional resourcing? Werethere any measures that I had to
add into our operations. So theimmediate response was that our
(26:03):
current setup was sufficient,but they were providing some
additional resources of justpeople coming and scoping out
and making sure as well. So Ilet our community know that, and
I think that really settledpeople's immediate nerves down,
as far as kind of the moreexistential things go, that
takes time, and that's part ofour ongoing development, and the
messaging that that I offer,which is always one of hope and
(26:26):
faith in the future, because Ithink that's really the gift
that I can give our students.
David Bryfman (26:31):
How bad is it there? I mean, we're talking
about Melbourne. It's acommunity that you and I both
know pretty well. I mean, I knowit pretty well. You know it very
well. What we know aboutMelbourne is it's a, you know,
it's known for being a largeHolocaust survivor community.
The trauma is real and probablyintergenerational in many, in
many circumstances as well. Butwhat's it like for you living in
(26:52):
Melbourne now? Do you feel likethe Jewish community is under
threat? Do your students feellike there is an existential
threat against the Jewishcommunity? And how do you
balance all of those thingsgoing on as an educator in in
one of the the main Jewish dayschools in the Melbourne area.
Unknown (27:06):
So, David, absolutely, there is a shift, I think, in in
the communal sentiment at themoment, there is a sense of some
threat. I think I wouldcharacterize it as I've become
much more aware of that is ageneration of trauma we've we've
talked about, you know, being aone of the largest Holocaust
survivors in the world, or thelargest outside of Israel, and
(27:28):
the impact of that on ourcommunity. But I haven't felt it
to the extent that I have now. Ifeel like around Shabbat tables,
you know, over the last year anda bit since October 7, there's a
lot of people have been askingthe question, kind of, is this
it? Is this the it that we'vebeen kind of waiting for all our
lives or over generations? Myanswer to that is, this is not
(27:50):
it. It's not good. We've hadsome really bad situations.
We've had a huge rise in antisemitic events. We've had some
very damaging message coming outof particularly university
campuses, also from some partsof particularly the extreme left
of the political spectrum, somevery damaging, you know, blatant
anti semitic reactions. It'sbeen a bad time in that regard.
(28:14):
But I do think that there is akey difference. So I do hear
about people talking about theirPlan B's, and what would we do
if it gets much worse, and wherewould we go and live? And those
sorts of questions arehappening, but I think they're
what we have to remember is thatthe vast majority of Australians
support a fair, inclusive way oflife. We're not talking about
(28:37):
any state sponsored orgovernment led anti semitism.
And so I think the parallelswith, you know, 1920s and 1930s
Europe are false in that regard.
I think we have to be alert towhat's going on. There is a rise
of anti semitism. We need toaddress that, but we also, yeah,
we shouldn't panic, and we needto hold on to our way of life,
and that's really important aswell. So I
David Bryfman (28:59):
want to ask you about the term pride, because I
think it's one of the thingswhich at least parents are
asking of Jewish educators. Iwant my kids to be proud. And I
think I want to ask you the twofold question, are you still
proud to be Australian, and thenare you still proud to be
Jewish, given what's takingplace around you? Or, I'm
guessing the answer is probablyyes to both. But how do you
instill that pride in both whenall of this is going on around
(29:23):
you, and you know, as aneducator, how do you instill
that amongst your students? So
Unknown (29:27):
firstly, I love this question. For me, this is a
really important and fundamentalquestion. I think it's easy to
get into a trap of focusing onnegativity, thinking about we
owe it to ourselves to instillJewish identity in opposition to
those that that hate us or orchallenging us. But I really
think that what we need to doright now is use our students
(29:49):
emerging Jewish identities withjoy and fun. So we have a real
strong focus on stories andmusic and games, and we invite
our. Families in wheneverpossible for celebrations,
because I think that we'retalking about here, identity
development. It's not justeducation, it's identity
development. So that's got to beencoded with emotion and
(30:13):
positive emotion whereverpossible. And so from an early
age, that's really our focus. Isit infusing our Jewish life
events with joy and love andacceptance, and then that
becomes the basis of it. So yes,we need to focus on on what's
going on in the broadercommunity, but at the same time,
what I want our students to takeaway is that being Jewish offers
(30:35):
so much joy and richness andthat they can celebrate our
incredible and diverse culture,and that their Jewish identity
is not a burden, that theyshould feel lucky to have this
as part of who they are. Andwhat about your commitment to
Australia? So absolutely, look,I'm very much proud to be an
Australian. How proud to be aJew. Look, there's no society
(30:57):
that's perfect. We just have toremember that this is coming
from from the margins that thevast majority of Australians
appreciative of our community,there's there's a lot of
ignorance, and we can do betterat educating about who we are
and what we stand for. I stillthink you know to extrapolate on
the my previous answer,Australian schools, General,
(31:17):
Australian schools, have a realfocus on Holocaust education.
They visit the Holocaust center,but they might never go to the
Jewish Museum, and so they learna lot about what happened to the
Jewish people, but they don'tnecessarily understand who we
are, what we stand for, ourculture, our belief, our ritual,
our history, our philosophy, Ithink, once that's shared much
(31:38):
more, rather than a focus onwhat happens when human rights
deteriorate, we can learn betterrespect for one another within
and I think Australia is a proudmulticultural society. I think
it's under threat at the momentfor lots of reasons, but I think
that's something that we reallyneed to fight for,
David Bryfman (31:55):
to have a discussion about the fire
bombing at the Israelcongregation, or the increase in
anti semitism in Australia, andnot to mention Israel and the
post October 7 world seems a bitdisingenuous as well, because
they are connected in some waysor in many ways, but I want to
ask you the question, as aneducator, not to, not to go into
the politics or the sociopolitics of what's taking place,
(32:17):
but as an educator, have youdone anything differently in
relation to Israel education ina post October 7 world
Unknown (32:24):
I think we do. I think our goal is the same post
October 7 than it was before.
We're really committed toproviding a holistic and nuanced
understanding of Israel. What wedon't want is that experience of
shock that previous generationshad where they were taught
everything's perfect and it's aliving utopia, and then they
(32:44):
would go and travel to Israeland find that their dreams were
shattered and would becomedisillusioned. So we've taught
this hugging and wrestling modelas part of their Israel
education for a long time, butthat said, since October 7, I
think we're much more sensitivearound how we deliver this
educational model. There's a lotof delicacy around it, and it's
(33:05):
really about the personalexperiences and the family
connections that more so than inthe past, everybody has somebody
who's been directly impacted. Sowe've got to be very cautious
about the emotional impact ofour education, and also very
much so our school is a Zionistschool, and we and it's really
(33:25):
important for us to reclaim thatterm, that the Zionism of the
founders of the State of Israelis the best place that can be
the most democratic, thefairest. So that's something
that we really want to achieve,and the values that we're still
committed to and still lovingIsrael and our students
(33:46):
developing a strong sense ofconnectedness and appreciation,
but it's changed in the sensethat we haven't been able to
send groups to Israel like wewould previously. So that's a
challenge. So it certainly haschanged since October 7.
David Bryfman (34:01):
So given that I'm speaking to you after the events
of last week as a leader ofJewish education in Melbourne,
what's what's one message thatyou would like to share with
Jewish educators all around theworld right now?
Unknown (34:13):
So the terrorist attack happened on Friday morning and
on Sunday evening, we had ourpresentation evening, our speech
night, our big end of the year,school year function. And so
it's sort of when I give mykeynote speech for the year. And
my message this year was, youhear Tov, it will be good. And
it's a it was a funny thing togive that message so soon after
(34:35):
Friday, but I wanted to deliverthat message not because I have
a magical belief that it's allgoing to work out fine and don't
worry about it. But I also thinkthat we are empowered to impact
our reality and our the way thatwe interpret our reality, and
that positive thinking is veryimportant. And I think that
(34:56):
under times of threat, theexternal hatred can corrupt.
That's one's world view. And soby focusing on the positive
aspects of identity, the joy inbeing Jewish, the wonderful
contribution of JewishAustralians to the broader
Australian community, and thosekey moments of intercultural and
interfaith connections that havebuilt Australia into what it is
(35:19):
renewing our sense of tikkunolam, we can build the world
that we want to live in. So thatwas the key message that I would
I would put out there you hear.
So it will be good
David Bryfman (35:30):
mark as of with all of my previous guests on the
adapting podcast, I wanted toask you who is one educator in
your life that you think hastransformed you and helped shape
you into the educator who youare today?
Unknown (35:43):
That's a exceptional question. It's it's a
challenging one. There's awonderful educator who she was
my late mother's best friend.
Her name's Rene Jacques. She wasan educator in a Jewish educator
in Australia. She taught atBialy college and also at a
number of other Jewish schoolsfor a long time. And I kind of
(36:04):
see her as a bit of she's kindof my fairy godmother in
relation to my educationaljourney. But everywhere along
the line, she's noticedopportunities for me. She's
encouraged me to apply for them.
She's pushed me, and alsoeverything she does. You know
what I said earlier aboutintegrity? It's really
(36:25):
fundamental to how I understandthat she's someone who always,
always acts with integrity. Shewas incredibly relationship
focused as a teacher, and that'ssomething that really, I found
really inspiring. So she's awonderful person that I really
look up to, and has also beenfundamental in building me into
the educator that I am today.
David Bryfman (36:44):
Mark, thank you.
Thanks for for sharing. For allthe wrong reasons, this is
extremely enlightening andimportant for for educators
around the world to be listeningto your your voice and your your
optimism, even in what is beingportrayed as pretty dark times
in in Melbourne, in Australianjewelry at the moment, and I'm
looking forward to you and Ibeing able to connect in better
times and hopefully in person,and send my best to your family.
Unknown (37:09):
Thanks so much, David and to you as well. Take care
David Bryfman (37:13):
so both to its sick and to Mark. Thank you.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to join the show today. I
know it wasn't easy for you.
Wasn't easy for me to belistening to you either the
struggles that you're talkingabout are both very, very real,
but I appreciate both of you foryour your honesty, your
integrity, the work that you'redoing, and just the commitment
you have to your to your kidsand to your teachers and to the
(37:36):
Jewish people. Today's episodeof adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
NASA lieben. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
J Vaughan of njb media. And ifyou enjoyed or if you took
something from today's episodeof adapting, please leave us a
five star rating on Applepodcast. Even better still,
(37:59):
share it with a friend. Leave usa comment there as well to learn
more about the Jewish Edproject. Visit
us@jewishedproject.org There youcan learn more about our
mission, our history, our staffand our commitment to Jewish
education, particularly in apost October 7 world and as
always, we are a proud partnerof UJA Federation of New York.
Thank you as always forlistening. You
We're recording today's episode of adapting on
December 9, 2024 and over thecourse of the last few seasons
of adapting, I can honestly saythat I've learned something and
gained something from everyepisode. I always choose guests
and topics that I findinteresting and, more
importantly, that I think areimportant and necessary for the
Jewish educational ecosystem asa whole, but sometimes
(00:21):
conversations are a bit morepersonal, like the ones which
I'll be having today. Theseconversations are about my
hometown, Melbourne, Australia,and it's been in the news lately
for all the wrong reasons. Andeven though I've been living in
the States now for over 20years, there is something
incredibly distressing anddisheartening and sad seeing
Melbourne and the MelbourneJewish community in the news and
(00:43):
in my social media feeds in theway that it's being portrayed
today. So this episode ofadapting is being released
literally just one week afterthe arson attack on the Adas
Israel congregation inMelbourne. Since then, the
attack has been declared aterrorist attack, and the
perpetrators are still at large,and there is still significant
political fallout taking placein Australia as a result of this
(01:04):
incident and many others. Butadapting is not a podcast about
politics. It's a podcast abouteducation, although, as I've
often said, all education isultimately political. But before
introducing today's guests, somewords of context, Australia and
Melbourne specifically, is alarge Holocaust survivor
community, and the trauma of theShoah runs deep, and it has
(01:25):
almost certainly been passeddown generationally. Australia
is also a strongly Zionistcommunity, and although recent
studies have shown some changingpatterns in the relationship of
Israel to the youngergenerations, the bonds between
Australian Jewry and Israel runvery, very deep. Melbourne also
has a strong ethos of Jewish DaySchool attendance, and although
this number also appears to beslightly declining, some reports
(01:47):
still cite a 60% attendance ofschool aged students attending
Jewish day schools. Now, theMelbourne Jewish community is
also very concentrated, at leasttraditionally So, and the dust
Israel congregation is in theheart of this often self
described, affectionately andyes, ironically, self referred
to the Jewish ghetto, the A duskcommunity is by no means
(02:07):
mainstream in terms of MelbourneJewry, but they are certainly a
visible and dynamic force in alandscape of Jewish communal
life that is known for itsdiversity. Now, since October 7,
some would say longer, antisemitism has been on the rise in
Australia and specifically inMelbourne. And while my own
estimation is that many of theseincidents, including rallies,
protests and often devolvinginto graffiti and verbal and
(02:31):
sometimes even physicalharassment and assaults, they
might have begun as Israel oranti Israel activities, the
distinction between antisemitism and anti Israel
activities has been blurred, ifnot completely disintegrated.
And the irony is not lost onanyone. The dust community,
which was attacked last week, isis not identified as a Zionist
community, obviously, a strongJewish one. Now you don't need
(02:54):
me or adapting to tell you moreabout what's happening in
Australia right now. There aremany other sources you can go to
for that. What I wanted to dotoday was find out how educators
are responding to these recentand horrific events. So I called
Two of my former colleagues,both of whom I have deep and
personal connections with, toask them about life as a Jewish
educator in Melbourne today,just one week after this
(03:16):
terrorist attack on a synagogueliterally down the street from
both of their institutions. Itssix document is the executive
principal of YouTube, the UnitedJewish education board, which
provides Jewish education forstudents in non Jewish schools.
And Mark light is the principalof the King David Jewish Day
School in Melbourne. They canand they will speak for
themselves during this episode,but what I do want all listeners
(03:39):
to pay attention to is how thesetwo experienced and thoughtful
Jewish educators are respondingto this particular crisis,
because it's beyond theheadlines, beyond the rhetoric
and the politics, all of whichhave a place in societal
discourse. Because at the heartof their responses, filled with
their sadness and even sometrepidation and fear, there is a
deep commitment to education, totheir students and to the Jewish
(04:01):
people. Now the only other thingthat I'll say before handing it
over to Itzik and then a fewminutes later into the
conversation you'll hear fromMark is that their messages,
like all good educators, areultimately filled with hope, and
despite the anti Semites, or inspite of the anti semitism,
Jewish education, Jewish pride,and the Jewish people will not
only survive in Melbourne, butthrive there for generations to
(04:23):
come. And now, in an episodewhich I never thought that I'd
have to record, it's over toItzik and then to mark for their
reflections as Jewish educatorson life in Melbourne, Australia,
after the terrorist attackagainst the Adas Israel
congregation, against the Jewishcommunity and against Australian
society as a whole, this isadapting the future of Jewish
education, a podcast from theJewish education project where
(04:46):
we explore the big questions,challenges and successes that
define Jewish education. I'mDavid Brafman.
Hey, there. It's sick. It's goodto speak with you. We've known
each other for quite a while,and I think it's a bit
unfortunate that it's takenevents like the ones in the last
(05:06):
couple of weeks to bring ustogether on adapting.
Unknown (05:09):
Yes. Thank you. Thanks.
It's good to catch up again. Letthe listeners know
David Bryfman (05:13):
what your initial thoughts and reactions were when
you first heard about the arsonattack on the dust Israel
congregation.
Unknown (05:20):
Look, I think probably the worst kind of indication is
that it wasn't shock, and Ithink that was something that
actually shocked a lot of us,that when we heard that there
was an arson attack on a shul,of course, it's a shocking
event, but we were not sosurprised. Things have been
going a little bit downwards inAustralia for a little while
(05:42):
now, and the fact that a shulwas was attacked by an Arsen
attack was, you know, justsomething that's like, Yeah,
well, that probably, you know,would have happened after
everything else.
David Bryfman (05:52):
So that's not a great state of affairs for for
Melbourne Jewish community to beliving in. Do you feel like
you're living under constantthreat or constant fear.
Unknown (06:01):
Look, I don't think it's constant threat physically.
I think that physically, wehaven't been under constant
threat. It's more aboutemotionally feeling comfortable.
As Jewish people in Australia,that's where we've been under
threat. I mean, there, there's alot of talk about that, people
use the word I feel unsafe, andthat's sort of a word that's not
(06:25):
really defined so well. And Idon't think we feel unsafe that
we are physically in danger,notwithstanding the arson attack
on the shore, I don't thinkwalking around the streets we
feel like we're physically indanger, but we do feel unsafe.
We feel like we could beapproached and verbally abused
at any moment. So
David Bryfman (06:45):
you work with educators, and you work with the
educators who work with theyoung people who attend public
schools and private schools, notthe Jewish schools in Melbourne.
So what's the message you'resending those kids? Because, I
mean, they're living on thefront face of interacting with
the broader Australian society,and something like this must be
very unsettling for them. Sowhat was the message you sent
(07:05):
out on Friday to your teachersand students you work with?
Well, I
Unknown (07:09):
think for us, we do a couple of different jobs. So we
work in the primary schoolspace, so that's five year olds
to 11 year olds. And then wework in the high school space,
which is our teens, ourteenagers for the primary school
programs, we really havecommunicated with parents on
several occasions since October7 that the best place for
discussions to happen withchildren that are under 11 years
(07:32):
old is at home, and so that'sthe messaging that we sent
again. Our parents know theirkids far better than we do. They
know their sensibilities andwhat they're sensitive about,
and we really message to themrepeatedly and encourage them to
have conversations at home. Andif conversations do come up at
school, you know, we address itas quickly as we can, and then
(07:55):
we try to move on in our highschool space, it's a lot
different. We really work on amuch more informal or
experiential basis. We overseeBBYO in Australia as well, so
we're very much in the teenspace in that regard. And there
we have, you know, a lot ofinteraction with kids and a lot
of discussion about what's goingon in Israel. Our educators are
(08:17):
really encouraged to discussanything that the kids want to
discuss, and that's what we do.
There's not really a script tofollow. One thing that we are
doing, which is, is very is verydifferent, is that we do run
what we call our AmbassadorsProgram, and so we have a cohort
of teenagers that we aretraining to talk about who they
are and how they are Jewish andwhat that means. So there's a
(08:37):
little bit of an extra emphasison that, on that kind of, you
know, self, being able to talkabout yourself as a Jewish
person. Are you
David Bryfman (08:46):
able to give some examples, maybe, of some of what
some of the teenagers haveexperienced, I'm guessing, like,
what's the extent of the antisemitism that some of them have
been exposed to in the last 14months?
Unknown (08:57):
Yeah, so it's really interesting. Our teens are
incredibly resilient. They areat government schools and non
Jewish schools, and so they areat the forefront of being the
recipients of all sorts of talkand discussion. And they're also
incredibly proud. So they'llwalk around with them again,
Magen David on or an Israeli tshirt, and they'll do that quite
(09:18):
proudly. And they classify allof this as banter. I don't know
if banter is a word used inAmerica or not, but it's you
know. They just think it's, it'syou know, kids talking, you
know, to annoy other kids, andthey don't take it so seriously.
So I think they're incrediblyresilient. They're not
experiencing any physical dangerat all. And occasionally they do
(09:40):
get confronted with a proPalestine, you know, advocate at
their school, and they are verymuch seen as as Israel. So our
Jewish kids at school are seenas Israel. So if someone has a
problem with Israel, theyreflect that problem onto that
student. And so our studentsneed to sort of stand up and
defend. Themselves in that way.
But again, it's it's somethingthat's very verbal at the
(10:02):
moment. So
David Bryfman (10:04):
you're touching on something which I think is
quite fundamental and maybemisleading given the media
coverage of what's taking placein Australia. Because what we're
hearing internationally is thatthis anti semitism, or this anti
Israel attitude, often becominganti semitic in nature, is
pervasive and impactingeverybody. And you're saying,
(10:24):
hang on a second. That's notexactly what's taking place.
There are incidents out there,but our kids dealing with it in
ways that the media is probablynot not describing on an ongoing
basis. It seems to be a bit of adisconnect, especially I read
somewhere today that oneAmerican organization has given
a Travel Warning to Jewstraveling to Australia now on
(10:44):
the ground. What are you andyour more importantly, I think,
for this discussion, what arethe kids that you're involved
with actually seeing andexperiencing on the ground in
Melbourne? So
Unknown (10:52):
I think that, I think the massive difference is that
in Melbourne, 60% of the Jewishkids go to Jewish schools, and
so they're going to have atotally different experience.
They're going to feel a lot moreconfronted by this new wave of
anti semitism. And I think whatwe need to understand about the
kids that go to non Jewishschools and have gone to non
Jewish schools for their wholelives, they live a non Jewish
(11:14):
environment all the time, and sothey're not feeling this level
of newness of what's going on inAustralia. I think the way you
described it is really true. Itreally is confronting in a way
it never has been before. But Ithink the kids at non Jewish
schools have this higher levelof resilience. Are
David Bryfman (11:32):
they proud of being Jewish and are they proud
of being Australian, given allthat's going on in the world?
Unknown (11:37):
Yeah. Look, I think definitely our kids, the kids
that connect to our programs,feel incredibly proud to be
Jewish. I think they're startingto question how they feel about
being Australian. To be honest,I think it takes a little time
for kids to start understandingwhat they're feeling but I feel
like there's a sentiment ofembarrassment that these kind of
(11:58):
things can happen in Australiathat you know, the pro Palestine
lobby can block streets andtransportation in the city every
Sunday, and that just keeps, youknow, going on unchecked. You
know that social media is justrife with anti Israel and anti
Jewish stuff. I think they'refeeling, you know, that
Australia is changing. It'sinteresting because
David Bryfman (12:19):
my questions to you began with talking about
anti semitic incidences, andspecifically the the arson
attack at a synagogue. You wentpretty straight into to
questions about Israel andPalestine and and the Middle
East conflicts, especially in apost October 7 world. Do you see
that there's been a fundamentalchange in this discourse since
October 7? And I guess thequestion back to you is, if
(12:41):
that's the case, how have youand how has your approach to
Israel education changed as aresult of all that's that's
transpired in the last 14months? Look,
Unknown (12:50):
there is no doubt that there's an enormous shift since
October 7, and I think that whatthe Jewish community is is
really realizing andunderstanding is that there is
no difference between an antiIsrael sentiment and anti
semitic sentiment in the in theeyes of the rest of the
community, not the Jewishcommunity, they're seen as the
(13:10):
same. You know, personally, Idon't think that's a bad thing.
I think it's, it's true andrealistic. That's my own, my
own, you know, philosophicalbackground. But I don't think
that, yeah, I think that thatseriously, there been a massive
change since October 7. Look, wereally feel it with our Israeli
community. There's quite a largeIsraeli expat community in
(13:33):
Australia and in Melbourne, andthey also, for the first time in
their lives, have felt antisemitism, and felt it through
the lens of anti Israel. So it'sbeen a it's been a massive, a
massive change
David Bryfman (13:48):
as the leader of Jewish education in Melbourne,
like, what's one message thatyou want to send to Jewish
educators all around the world,knowing that when they now think
of Melbourne, they're thinkingof of all of these incidences,
and especially the the arsonattack. But what's the message
you want to send to to all ofthem? Well,
Unknown (14:05):
I think it's one that really we reflect from our our
teens, and that is just beingproud. We're not cowering, we're
not hiding away. And I thinkthat, think about it, the way I
grew up as a teenager inMelbourne, one of the things I
always heard say to me was, takeyour hat. So I was religious, I
wore a kippah, and every time Iwent out, the message was, take
(14:28):
your hat. And I think that theone message that we need to
project to ourselves and to theworld is that, you know, we need
to be proud of who we are and weneed to stop hiding. I think
another thing that's happened inMelbourne a lot is that every
public event supporting Israelhas been behind a wall, you
know, so we hide behind thisneed for security, and this is
(14:51):
quite contentious, I wouldimagine that we hide behind this
need for security, and thereforewe're not seen. And. I think if
you're not seen, then you don'texist. It's much easier to be
hateful to a people that youdon't see. And I think the big
message that we have, and amessage that we really see
through our kids, is is that weneed to be loud and proud
(15:15):
passionate Jews, and we need tobe out there. We need to wear
our magendavids. We need to wearIsraeli T shirts. We need to be
really proud of who we are, andwe need to stop the hiding
because it's not serving us anygood. I've
David Bryfman (15:28):
asked this of all of my guests, I want to ask you
as well, who's an educator inyour life that's been majorly
transformative for you, someonethat you want to pay tribute to
and acknowledge in this forum.
Wow. Look,
Unknown (15:41):
I I'm not going to talk about you, David, because you're
here. I look, I will talk aboutyou for a moment, though, just
just, we're colleagues, andwe're the same age, and we went
through the youth movementstogether, sort of, look, I think
that, that you know, watchingsomeone like yourself is has
been incredibly inspiring. I'mjust going to say that, but I'm
(16:03):
going to move back to to my ownhigh school experience. And
there was a teacher who probablytransformed my life, and I won't
get into it too much, but thebottom line is, he just believed
in me. I wasn't doingparticularly well academically.
I wasn't, you know, you know,had my own challenges, my own
learning difficulties, dyslexia,ADHD, no one ever diagnosed it
(16:26):
back then, you know, and Iwasn't doing great, and he just
sat down with me and just showedme that he believed in me. And I
think in educators, that's whatwe need to do with our students.
We have to form these, you know,these, these special
relationships with our students,and we need to really show them
that they are awesome people andthat we believe that they are
capable of anything.
David Bryfman (16:48):
Yeah, I appreciate the answers both of
them, both the personal one, butalso the broader message. And
for our listeners, if it's notobvious, it's sick and I have
known each other for manydecades now, not giving away our
ages completely, and it's sortof indicative that it's taken
this particular week of eventsfor people literally, to come to
me and say, Who can you speak tofrom live, from Melbourne,
(17:08):
Australia, to tell you about howbad things are down under at the
moment for the the Jewishcommunity. And it's a bit um,
humbling and sobering to hearyour reflections that like,
yeah, this stuff is bad, but itdoesn't really have to be the
things which define thecommunity. I think that's a
that's a tribute to you and toyour to your colleagues,
Unknown (17:26):
thanks. Look, I think that's true, but there's an
enormous fear in the community,like I know my my mum said to me
the other day, this is scary.
And so my mum's the daughter ofHolocaust survivors, and she's
scared about this. And then mymother in law, who has lived in
Australia most her life, she'sbeen telling us that we should
all think about making Aliyahand that, you know, she doesn't
(17:47):
think that there's a future forus here. And then my daughter,
who David, you know quite well,she's making Aliyah next month,
and she's doing that because shewants to get into academia at a
Melbourne University, and shefeels like, as a Zionist, she
just won't get a job. Soalthough kids are doing well and
they're resilient, and althoughthe community is strong and will
(18:09):
will rise above this and be evenstronger for it. And you know,
there are cracks, there areserious cracks that that that
need attention. It's not like itused to be, and we're suffering
a bit here.
David Bryfman (18:25):
Yeah, I get the real feeling of this story is
only beginning to unfold, andwe're going to look upon this
particular point in time as areal as a real turning point for
what's long been regarded as oneof the most vibrant, successful,
and I would say, integratedcommunities in the Jewish
Diaspora. And I think just tothank you for sharing your
insights as an educator, and Ithink we'll need to follow up in
the near future and see whattranspires in the upcoming
(18:47):
months and years. So it's thanksso much for joining us on
adapting today. Thanks, David,thanks. And now we're going to
turn over to Mark light, theprincipal of a Jewish Day School
in Melbourne, to talk about thesame issues, but from a very
different perspective. So Mark,it's just great to connect with
you now for all of the wrongreasons, I guess. And I think
(19:09):
talking to you, I don't know,it's been a couple of decades
since we last connected as youknow, fellow Jewish educators
involved in a Zionist youthmovement in the times that we're
in, it's a bit, um, it's a bitof a shocking reality check that
it's taken this event of recentdays to bring us back together,
but that sort of sums up theworld in which we live. And I'm
just wanted like, say hi. Howare you? How's your family? It's
(19:29):
good to reconnect, but for allthe wrong reasons, right? Yeah,
Unknown (19:32):
yeah, it is a shame, David. And look, it is lovely to
reconnect, and the family isgreat. It's It's been a long
time, and having had aconnection with you and and your
your late mother, who myIntroduction to Teaching was
sitting in and observing herteach in her media classes way
back when, and then I became themedia teacher after she retired.
(19:55):
So you know, that's amazing, andalso teaching alongside your
sister at. Time. So yeah, we goback a long way, and also to the
youth movement days. And youknow, my second child just
finishing up her commitment tothe same Youth Movement havoc
that we were involved in. Myoldest was very involved as
well. So it's amazing to seethat intergenerational stuff
(20:18):
happen.
David Bryfman (20:19):
So what were your initial thoughts and reactions
when you heard about the arsonattack on the ADAs, Israel
congregation, which has now beendeemed a terrorist attack.
Unknown (20:27):
So I don't want to give you a wrong impression, I'm no
sort of gin junkie or anythinglike that, but I actually
happened to be on my way to thegym early last Friday morning.
We have a intergenerational gymsession that I do with my dad
and my daughter, and I wasdriving separately there from my
daughter, and I saw, as I wasdriving down Glen, I road one of
(20:48):
the main roads in Caulfield. Isaw in the distance flashing
lights and sirens. And thought,Oh, I better drive a different
way. And called my daughter andsaid, Listen, don't go down
Glen. I wrote, take the otherroute. When we arrived at the
gym, my daughter had beenlistening to the radio, and she
said, look, there's been asuspected fire bomb attack on
the dusty rail, sure. And so myheart started beating, and I
(21:12):
jumped straight into action. Andmy initial thoughts were, I've
got school starting in in acouple of hours, and I need to
make sure that everything'ssecure. So rather than sort of
processing anything at anemotional level or thinking
about antiSemitism, I jumpedinto action. Called our security
advisor, got in touch with thecommunity security group to make
sure that our operational needswere covered for the morning and
(21:34):
then throughout the day, as moreand more emerged, there was more
to do. So, you know, draftingcommunications to the staff, to
the community. It happened on aon a Friday, early Friday
morning. So we sort of just hadto get through the day, and then
we had the weekend as more andmore emerged. So that's sort of
my initial reaction. Was jumpingstraight into action.
David Bryfman (21:54):
What's the preparation you've gone through
to get to that? You know,immediate response mode. Sadly,
Unknown (22:00):
this is the world that we live in as a as a Jewish
school, we're always constant tothe threat environment. It is
just a part of reality ofoperating we one of the first
things that I had to confrontedme when I became principal.
Shortly after I became principalin 2014 not too long after, we
received for the first time,advice to bring in armed guards,
(22:24):
which had never been part of theenvironment Australian schools
or in Victorian schools everbefore. And so we went through
some analysis, we got anindependent report to determine
whether it was the appropriatedecision, and ultimately, we
introduce guards for the firsttime alongside all the other
(22:45):
Jewish schools. So it has beensince the very beginning of my
principalship, a very key aspectof our operations. We have a a
standing security committee thatmeets every term to talk about
our security needs. We haveprivate security guards, we have
the security community group, wehave our security advisor, and
(23:07):
we also have a parent SafetyGroup, where parents volunteer
for shifts to stand outside theschool, because they can be the
eyes and ears, and they knowwho's meant to be there and
who's not. And it sounds like abig wall of defense, and that
it's all we think about. This isall about precaution so that we
can live a positive Jewish life.
And so yes, we it's been farmore of my principalship than I
(23:32):
had anticipated, far away fromthinking about Jewish education,
thinking about security. Andreally at the time when we were
bringing in the armed guards,there was a lot around
ballistics and all sorts ofstuff that I'd never know
anything about, and trainingregimes and all the things I'd
never thought of. And I actuallyhad to pinch myself every now
(23:53):
and say, Am I really thinkingabout as an educator having
these conversations? But it is asad reality. There is a threat
environment globally for Jewishinstitutions, and if we take the
steps to be prepared and ready,then we can get it on with our
life.
David Bryfman (24:11):
So Mark You and I have known each other for quite
a while now, and none of thiswas the job description that you
signed up for. None of this iswhy you got into this role. So
how do you now begin to balanceup what it is that you really
want to be doing and what gotyou so involved in all of this
work running in parallel to nowthis almost like this separate
line of business that you haveto really be taken care of all
(24:31):
the time? Yeah,
Unknown (24:32):
it's a great question, but we could extrapolate out.
And there's lots of areas of thebusiness of being a school
principal or head of school toto use different parlance, I
think, where you're where you'reliving, that requires, you know,
a step away from the immediateeducational needs of students.
You're thinking about humanrelations, you're talking about
(24:53):
HR laws, you're talking aboutall sorts of aspects of
compliance and operations andrisk management. And insurance
and all those things. But forme, I just think about
facilitating education for mystudents. And so sometimes when
I'm having these difficultconversations around these
areas, I use a trick that wastaught to me by a colleague,
(25:14):
which is to imagine the virtualstudent, imagine a student who
I'm doing this all for in theroom when I'm having these
conversations, and that's reallygrounding. And brings me back to
the immediacy of why I'm doingthis, which is to facilitate the
development of Jewish identityand holistic education and a
really solid grounding for ourstudents moving into the future.
(25:37):
So
David Bryfman (25:37):
what was the message you told your your
students and the, I guess, theparent body as well on Friday
morning.
Unknown (25:42):
So for me, it was all about the immediacy of their
needs. The main thing they wereworried about was their safety.
So for me, the first thing wasto check was, were our advisors
satisfied with what we had inplace, and did we need
additional resourcing? Werethere any measures that I had to
add into our operations. So theimmediate response was that our
(26:03):
current setup was sufficient,but they were providing some
additional resources of justpeople coming and scoping out
and making sure as well. So Ilet our community know that, and
I think that really settledpeople's immediate nerves down,
as far as kind of the moreexistential things go, that
takes time, and that's part ofour ongoing development, and the
messaging that that I offer,which is always one of hope and
(26:26):
faith in the future, because Ithink that's really the gift
that I can give our students.
David Bryfman (26:31):
How bad is it there? I mean, we're talking
about Melbourne. It's acommunity that you and I both
know pretty well. I mean, I knowit pretty well. You know it very
well. What we know aboutMelbourne is it's a, you know,
it's known for being a largeHolocaust survivor community.
The trauma is real and probablyintergenerational in many, in
many circumstances as well. Butwhat's it like for you living in
(26:52):
Melbourne now? Do you feel likethe Jewish community is under
threat? Do your students feellike there is an existential
threat against the Jewishcommunity? And how do you
balance all of those thingsgoing on as an educator in in
one of the the main Jewish dayschools in the Melbourne area.
Unknown (27:06):
So, David, absolutely, there is a shift, I think, in in
the communal sentiment at themoment, there is a sense of some
threat. I think I wouldcharacterize it as I've become
much more aware of that is ageneration of trauma we've we've
talked about, you know, being aone of the largest Holocaust
survivors in the world, or thelargest outside of Israel, and
(27:28):
the impact of that on ourcommunity. But I haven't felt it
to the extent that I have now. Ifeel like around Shabbat tables,
you know, over the last year anda bit since October 7, there's a
lot of people have been askingthe question, kind of, is this
it? Is this the it that we'vebeen kind of waiting for all our
lives or over generations? Myanswer to that is, this is not
(27:50):
it. It's not good. We've hadsome really bad situations.
We've had a huge rise in antisemitic events. We've had some
very damaging message coming outof particularly university
campuses, also from some partsof particularly the extreme left
of the political spectrum, somevery damaging, you know, blatant
anti semitic reactions. It'sbeen a bad time in that regard.
(28:14):
But I do think that there is akey difference. So I do hear
about people talking about theirPlan B's, and what would we do
if it gets much worse, and wherewould we go and live? And those
sorts of questions arehappening, but I think they're
what we have to remember is thatthe vast majority of Australians
support a fair, inclusive way oflife. We're not talking about
(28:37):
any state sponsored orgovernment led anti semitism.
And so I think the parallelswith, you know, 1920s and 1930s
Europe are false in that regard.
I think we have to be alert towhat's going on. There is a rise
of anti semitism. We need toaddress that, but we also, yeah,
we shouldn't panic, and we needto hold on to our way of life,
and that's really important aswell. So I
David Bryfman (28:59):
want to ask you about the term pride, because I
think it's one of the thingswhich at least parents are
asking of Jewish educators. Iwant my kids to be proud. And I
think I want to ask you the twofold question, are you still
proud to be Australian, and thenare you still proud to be
Jewish, given what's takingplace around you? Or, I'm
guessing the answer is probablyyes to both. But how do you
instill that pride in both whenall of this is going on around
(29:23):
you, and you know, as aneducator, how do you instill
that amongst your students? So
Unknown (29:27):
firstly, I love this question. For me, this is a
really important and fundamentalquestion. I think it's easy to
get into a trap of focusing onnegativity, thinking about we
owe it to ourselves to instillJewish identity in opposition to
those that that hate us or orchallenging us. But I really
think that what we need to doright now is use our students
(29:49):
emerging Jewish identities withjoy and fun. So we have a real
strong focus on stories andmusic and games, and we invite
our. Families in wheneverpossible for celebrations,
because I think that we'retalking about here, identity
development. It's not justeducation, it's identity
development. So that's got to beencoded with emotion and
(30:13):
positive emotion whereverpossible. And so from an early
age, that's really our focus. Isit infusing our Jewish life
events with joy and love andacceptance, and then that
becomes the basis of it. So yes,we need to focus on on what's
going on in the broadercommunity, but at the same time,
what I want our students to takeaway is that being Jewish offers
(30:35):
so much joy and richness andthat they can celebrate our
incredible and diverse culture,and that their Jewish identity
is not a burden, that theyshould feel lucky to have this
as part of who they are. Andwhat about your commitment to
Australia? So absolutely, look,I'm very much proud to be an
Australian. How proud to be aJew. Look, there's no society
(30:57):
that's perfect. We just have toremember that this is coming
from from the margins that thevast majority of Australians
appreciative of our community,there's there's a lot of
ignorance, and we can do betterat educating about who we are
and what we stand for. I stillthink you know to extrapolate on
the my previous answer,Australian schools, General,
(31:17):
Australian schools, have a realfocus on Holocaust education.
They visit the Holocaust center,but they might never go to the
Jewish Museum, and so they learna lot about what happened to the
Jewish people, but they don'tnecessarily understand who we
are, what we stand for, ourculture, our belief, our ritual,
our history, our philosophy, Ithink, once that's shared much
(31:38):
more, rather than a focus onwhat happens when human rights
deteriorate, we can learn betterrespect for one another within
and I think Australia is a proudmulticultural society. I think
it's under threat at the momentfor lots of reasons, but I think
that's something that we reallyneed to fight for,
David Bryfman (31:55):
to have a discussion about the fire
bombing at the Israelcongregation, or the increase in
anti semitism in Australia, andnot to mention Israel and the
post October 7 world seems a bitdisingenuous as well, because
they are connected in some waysor in many ways, but I want to
ask you the question, as aneducator, not to, not to go into
the politics or the sociopolitics of what's taking place,
(32:17):
but as an educator, have youdone anything differently in
relation to Israel education ina post October 7 world
Unknown (32:24):
I think we do. I think our goal is the same post
October 7 than it was before.
We're really committed toproviding a holistic and nuanced
understanding of Israel. What wedon't want is that experience of
shock that previous generationshad where they were taught
everything's perfect and it's aliving utopia, and then they
(32:44):
would go and travel to Israeland find that their dreams were
shattered and would becomedisillusioned. So we've taught
this hugging and wrestling modelas part of their Israel
education for a long time, butthat said, since October 7, I
think we're much more sensitivearound how we deliver this
educational model. There's a lotof delicacy around it, and it's
(33:05):
really about the personalexperiences and the family
connections that more so than inthe past, everybody has somebody
who's been directly impacted. Sowe've got to be very cautious
about the emotional impact ofour education, and also very
much so our school is a Zionistschool, and we and it's really
(33:25):
important for us to reclaim thatterm, that the Zionism of the
founders of the State of Israelis the best place that can be
the most democratic, thefairest. So that's something
that we really want to achieve,and the values that we're still
committed to and still lovingIsrael and our students
(33:46):
developing a strong sense ofconnectedness and appreciation,
but it's changed in the sensethat we haven't been able to
send groups to Israel like wewould previously. So that's a
challenge. So it certainly haschanged since October 7.
David Bryfman (34:01):
So given that I'm speaking to you after the events
of last week as a leader ofJewish education in Melbourne,
what's what's one message thatyou would like to share with
Jewish educators all around theworld right now?
Unknown (34:13):
So the terrorist attack happened on Friday morning and
on Sunday evening, we had ourpresentation evening, our speech
night, our big end of the year,school year function. And so
it's sort of when I give mykeynote speech for the year. And
my message this year was, youhear Tov, it will be good. And
it's a it was a funny thing togive that message so soon after
(34:35):
Friday, but I wanted to deliverthat message not because I have
a magical belief that it's allgoing to work out fine and don't
worry about it. But I also thinkthat we are empowered to impact
our reality and our the way thatwe interpret our reality, and
that positive thinking is veryimportant. And I think that
(34:56):
under times of threat, theexternal hatred can corrupt.
That's one's world view. And soby focusing on the positive
aspects of identity, the joy inbeing Jewish, the wonderful
contribution of JewishAustralians to the broader
Australian community, and thosekey moments of intercultural and
interfaith connections that havebuilt Australia into what it is
(35:19):
renewing our sense of tikkunolam, we can build the world
that we want to live in. So thatwas the key message that I would
I would put out there you hear.
So it will be good
David Bryfman (35:30):
mark as of with all of my previous guests on the
adapting podcast, I wanted toask you who is one educator in
your life that you think hastransformed you and helped shape
you into the educator who youare today?
Unknown (35:43):
That's a exceptional question. It's it's a
challenging one. There's awonderful educator who she was
my late mother's best friend.
Her name's Rene Jacques. She wasan educator in a Jewish educator
in Australia. She taught atBialy college and also at a
number of other Jewish schoolsfor a long time. And I kind of
(36:04):
see her as a bit of she's kindof my fairy godmother in
relation to my educationaljourney. But everywhere along
the line, she's noticedopportunities for me. She's
encouraged me to apply for them.
She's pushed me, and alsoeverything she does. You know
what I said earlier aboutintegrity? It's really
(36:25):
fundamental to how I understandthat she's someone who always,
always acts with integrity. Shewas incredibly relationship
focused as a teacher, and that'ssomething that really, I found
really inspiring. So she's awonderful person that I really
look up to, and has also beenfundamental in building me into
the educator that I am today.
David Bryfman (36:44):
Mark, thank you.
Thanks for for sharing. For allthe wrong reasons, this is
extremely enlightening andimportant for for educators
around the world to be listeningto your your voice and your your
optimism, even in what is beingportrayed as pretty dark times
in in Melbourne, in Australianjewelry at the moment, and I'm
looking forward to you and Ibeing able to connect in better
times and hopefully in person,and send my best to your family.
Unknown (37:09):
Thanks so much, David and to you as well. Take care
David Bryfman (37:13):
so both to its sick and to Mark. Thank you.
Thank you so much for taking thetime to join the show today. I
know it wasn't easy for you.
Wasn't easy for me to belistening to you either the
struggles that you're talkingabout are both very, very real,
but I appreciate both of you foryour your honesty, your
integrity, the work that you'redoing, and just the commitment
you have to your to your kidsand to your teachers and to the
(37:36):
Jewish people. Today's episodeof adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
NASA lieben. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
J Vaughan of njb media. And ifyou enjoyed or if you took
something from today's episodeof adapting, please leave us a
five star rating on Applepodcast. Even better still,
(37:59):
share it with a friend. Leave usa comment there as well to learn
more about the Jewish Edproject. Visit
us@jewishedproject.org There youcan learn more about our
mission, our history, our staffand our commitment to Jewish
education, particularly in apost October 7 world and as
always, we are a proud partnerof UJA Federation of New York.
Thank you as always forlistening. You
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.