January 16, 2025 • 33 mins
As the largest Jewish community in Europe and the third largest in the world, French Jewry—primarily of Sephardic descent from North Africa—blends a rich, thriving Jewish heritage with modern challenges.
Giving a voice to the French Jewish community on this week’s episode of Adapting, David Bryfman sits down with Devorah Serrao, CEO of Alliance Israélite Universelle, to explore the unique dynamics of Jewish education and identity in France. Devorah shares insights into how young French Jews today balance their French and Jewish identities, as well as lessons for Jewish communities worldwide in navigating identity and finding your inner voice.
This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben.
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media.
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Bryfman (00:00):
Hi everybody, and we are recording today's episode
(00:02):
January 6, 2025 today'sdiscussion with Devorah Sarao
from France is a continuation ofmany of the conversations that
we've had about Jewishpeoplehood, except that this
time, it's from someone outsideof America and outside of
Israel, and that's part of thepoint here to see what this
Jewish people hood concept meansbeyond some of the traditional
geographic understandings of theworld in which we live today.
(00:25):
But it's more than that, becauseDevorah is not just contributing
to the discussion, but she'sadding a considerable voice and
a considerable voice from acommunity that is often
overlooked. And what we try anduncover here is how much the
rest of world Jewry can actuallylearn from the French Jewish
experience, acknowledging thatit is both a unique experience,
but there are many themes whichare really ubiquitous, things
(00:46):
that we can all learn from insome really poignant ways. And
importantly for me, thisconversation was also about a
bit of a rebuttal against someof the mainstream media
portrayals about French Jewishcommunity, that it's not
necessarily the end of FrenchJewish community as we might
know it today. In fact, Devorahpaints the opposite picture,
that it is a thriving Jewishcommunity with thriving Jewish
(01:08):
education, despite some of thecurrent complexities related to
anti semitism and discomfort inthat particular country. So it's
a really enjoyable episode froma really strong Jewish educator.
Might I say, a strong Jewishfemale educator with a lot of
really strong contributions tomake to the overall conversation
about Jewish education in theworld today. And I think you'll
(01:30):
enjoy today's episode ofadapting as much as I did. This
is adapting the future of Jewisheducation, a podcast from the
Jewish education project wherewe explore the big questions,
challenges and successes thatdefine Jewish education. I'm
David breifman.
(01:51):
I am really pleased to be ableto welcome Devora cerao, who is
the CEO of the AllianceIsraelite universe. I think I
pronounced that correctly, andthat is an organization in
France which is really dedicatedto promoting Jewish education in
the French Jewish community. Iwant to add that DeVore and I
were recently together in Israelamongst 40 Jewish educational
(02:12):
leaders from 14 countries, andthere we gathered as part of a
forum convened by fourcompletely, well, not
completely, but four verydifferent organizations, the
Ministry of diaspora affairs andcombating anti semitism united
the education and Zionistenterprise of the department of
the World Zionist Organization,the Jewish Agency for Israel and
(02:32):
the Pinkus foundation for Jewisheducation. And I don't mention
it lightly that fourorganizations came together for
this really global experience ofJewish educators. But it was
part of this forum where Devorahand I were able to have many
conversations about the futureof Jewish education, the future
of Israel education, and what itmeans to be part of the Jewish
people. And with that, Devorah,thank you so much for joining us
(02:52):
on adapting today.
Unknown (02:54):
Thank you. Merci, Bucha. All right, so just start
off by telling
David Bryfman (02:57):
us all a bit about the work that you're
currently doing. Sure.
Unknown (03:01):
So if you allow me, I'll just go back a tiny bit in
history. I will go back all theway to 1860 where the alliance
was funded, because it's a veryimportant history to tell, to
understand the French Jewry andto understand, maybe the
relationship between Frenchpeople and French Jewish
community to its Sephardicheritage. Basically in 1860 the
(03:24):
Jews, some Jews in France, werebenefiting from the rights that
were given to them just afterthe French Revolution. They were
benefiting it so much that thesocial elevator worked very well
for them, very, very well.
Therefore, they started to worryand to feel a lot of concern for
their brothers and sisters wholived all around the
Mediterranean Sea in what wecall the Sephardic countries,
(03:46):
and where there were actually norights for those Jews and for
this part of the family thatthey had, and they started to
think that they were so lucky tobe in France and to have all
those rights. How come thoseJews around the Mediterraneans
he couldn't benefit from it, andAdolf Premier, the same
criminal, gave the Frenchnationality to the Jews in
(04:07):
Algeria was a very famouslawyer, also funded and was the
first president of the Alliancedecided in 1860 with some of his
friends, some very importantpeople and very wealthy people,
to come and assist thosebrothers and sisters, and the
first step they took intoassisting them was to create the
first Jewish education network.
(04:29):
Before second world war. Therewere 50,000 children in the
Jewish schools of the Allianceall around the Mediterranean
sea, and all taught in French.
We continue to maintain schoolsin France, in Morocco and in
Israel. We also maintain alibrary and archives all the of
the history of all those Jewishthose countries that had big
(04:52):
population of Jews. So we havevery rare archives about the
Jews of saloniki, of Turkey. HeMorocco, etc, etc. And we also
want to have an impact on thefuture of education and
leadership in front. And so wehave programs of leadership,
young leadership program, wherewe select a group of young women
and men who want to commit andhave some kind of part to play
(05:15):
for the future of the Jewishcommunity in France, and
therefore we train them. We havealso a very important cultural
and training center where wetrain teachers, and not only
Jewish teachers for Jewishschools, we also train, for
example, public schools,teachers to the what we call
connaissance, Judaism, knowledgeand discovery of what it is to
be Jewish today in France, fromthe perspective of Humanities
(05:38):
and what Judaism has to bring tothe culture and the society,
specifically in France, butoverall in the world. So let's
David Bryfman (05:47):
talk a bit about the Jews of France today. I'll
ask you a few questions, andyou'll give me as many answers
as you can to these data points.
So how many Jews live in Francetoday? So
Unknown (05:56):
depending on how you calculate and how you count,
who's Jewish, but we can allagree that there are 500,000
Jews today in France, whichmakes it the biggest community
in Europe and the third in theworld, just after Israel and in
the United States.
And what cities do those Jewsmainly live in? So they are
obviously themain cities that you and me
know, which is Paris, Marseille,Lyon, Strasbourg, and smaller
(06:17):
communities such as Bordeaux,Montpellier, Toulouse, etc. How
David Bryfman (06:24):
do you describe the ethnic makeup of French
Jewry today?
Unknown (06:28):
So as in any European country after the show, after
Second World War, Ashkenazi Jewswere coming either from Russia
or Eastern Europe, and becauseFrance was very much an
Ashkenazi community. Very, veryfew came back. And around the
50s and the 60s, when NorthAfrica was either decolonized or
(06:50):
Jews had to run away from thosecountries. So basically today,
it became an extremely, it is anextremely Sephardic Jewish
community, which means that ithas its habits, it has its
customs, it has its way of lifeand of practicing Judaism, and
therefore it is rathermainstream Orthodox community.
(07:10):
Obviously there's also, justlike in the rest of the Jewish
world, we see a lot of inputfrom the Chabad organizations,
and we see a lot of activismcoming also from different
Zionists and Israeli structures,but it is mostly, I would say,
up to 70, 80% even a Sephardiccommunity, knowing that it is
(07:34):
not exactly the same as it is inAmerica. For example, we do not
have Iranian Jews. We do nothave Parisian Jews. We didn't do
not have Libyan Jews, but wehave mostly North African Jews.
And
David Bryfman (07:47):
in terms of Jewish education, what
percentage of childrenapproximately go to Jewish day
schools in France? So
Unknown (07:52):
that's a very interesting question. Actually,
we have what we call becausethis is a very important key
element to have and to knowabout French Jewish education,
there is a partnership with theMinistry of Education, which
means that all our teachers, ifyou have a contract with the
Ministry of Education, all theteachers of secular studies are
paid by the government, by theMinistry of Education. So that's
(08:13):
a way that the school, theprivate school, does not have to
carry but the school still, as aparent, you still need to pay
fees, and it's an average of6000 euros per child and per
year, including the warm koshermeals at in the middle of the
day, because no Jewish motherwants to send her child or his
child in a structure where theywon't serve a warm meal, warm
(08:34):
kosher meal. And that is really,really something that's very
strong and very important in theprobably Sephardic culture, but
I would say overall in theJewish culture. So today,
there's about 100,000 childrenin the age of being in school,
of which a third is in theJewish school, another third in
(08:55):
the public school, and anotherlast third in the private
Catholic schools.
David Bryfman (09:00):
And what other types of Jewish education exists
in France for French Jewry?
Unknown (09:04):
So you will find, obviously, different
organizations that have Jewishcamps, and you have
organizations that are in moreyouth movements. And therefore
they will also offer not onlyactivities on weekends and
Shabbat, but also during thesummer. And you have, obviously
the Sunday School, which is notat all the same as you know, in
America, Sunday School, which iscalled here in France, the
(09:26):
Talmud Torah, which is actuallya heritage already from also
from North Africa, because themodel was also implemented in
North Africa, some kids could goto the French speaking school in
Algeria, especially, or even InMorocco, in Tunisia, and go on
regular days to their publicschool or to their Jewish
schools. But the talmidura ismostly for Jewish kids or in
(09:47):
public schools or Catholicschools, and they go Sunday
morning to study the basics ofHebrew and of Jewish history.
David Bryfman (09:54):
Dvoriov explained a pretty vibrant, exciting
Jewish life in France. Yes.
Unknown (10:00):
You're welcome to come to us discover it, but it comes
with its challenges regardingtraditional communities, where
tradition is very well kept, andwhere every innovation is taken
very slowly. And by that, Ithink you can understand in
between the words and my words,that every innovation takes
time, but every change, justlike any change, once you do the
(10:24):
change, no one knows anymore howwe used to do it before, and
hopefully this is what we aretrying to lead, especially us
women, because I do believe thatwe have some facilities to lead
change in a world that'sconstantly changing, but that
David Bryfman (10:39):
vibrancy that you describe, and that excitement
that I can hear, even in yourvoice and from knowing you a
little bit, is not necessarilythe message that the rest of the
world hears about the Jews inFrance, it doesn't take much
time to come across an articlewhen you put French Jewry into
Google to hear about all of thenegative parts about being a
French Jew today. In fact, evenrecently, I believe it was the
(11:01):
the senior rabbi in France evensaid there is no future for the
Jews in France as well. So howdo you reconcile what these the
obvious rise in anti semitism inFrance and the and the vibrancy
of Jewish life there? Well,
Unknown (11:14):
I don't see so much of an opposition in a contradiction
in what you are telling me. Iwill tell you that from since
Napoleon, who started toorganize the Jewish life in
France, as you might know, hesaid you we should give
everything to the Jews, as longas they practice Judaism inside
their homes and everything asFrench people, as long as
(11:35):
they're French outside theirhomes. Just understand that this
identity, this dual identity,was implemented already, since
they were in North Africa,because they were teaching it. I
just want to tell you a littlestory about it, Charles de
Gaulle, when he was electedafter the war, and he came back
after the war to rebuild thecountry in France, appointed a
president in the of the name ofRene Cassandra. Rene cassan was
(11:56):
the author of the Okay, now Ineed to translate that into
English. You see, now you'rechallenging me. Declaration de
rodolum, the Declaration ofHuman Rights. He was the author.
He was the one who organized it,and he was also the president of
the Alliance for 30 years.
Charles de Gaulle himselfappointed Rene Cass as one of
his closest advisor, and personworked for him as the president
(12:16):
of the Alliance. There was ahuge impact from the Alliance,
because they taught in French ata time where French was trying
to be superior to English andwas trying to occupy the world.
Why am I telling you about this?
Because there is something very,very deep in the heart of the
French Jewish people, and a verybig pride and acknowledgement of
(12:40):
what France gave the its Jewswhen they came back, especially
when they came back to Franceafter they were they had to
leave. I won't say they wereexpelled, but they had to leave
from Morocco, Tunisia, andespecially Algeria, where it was
much more violent toward them.
They came back to France. And ifyou compare, you know there was
a very good documentary, if youcompare how the social elevator
(13:01):
worked for the Jews who camefrom those countries to France
and those who came from thosecountries to Israel, and how it
worked for them in France, itworked perfectly well for them.
The second and third generationsmade it to a certain level of
comfort by studying, by workingreally hard, and where it didn't
work the same in Israel, forexample. So yes, there's a very
(13:24):
big duality, and the focus ofthe newspapers on telling the
history of the Jews sufferingfrom anti semitism is true. But
at the same time, we continue tolack space in our Jewish
schools. We continue to lackspace in our synagogues. We're
still recruiting rabbis werestill having a lot of
activities, and Jewish life isstill vibrant. I would summarize
it by saying that the Jews inFrance are not willing to give
(13:47):
up everything they have heard bybeing French citizens since the
day after the French Revolution.
No one here wants to give it up.
Some of us consider another lifein Israel, whether it is for
ourselves or for our children,but under no circumstances will
we give up our rights and willwe give up our status of French
(14:08):
Jewish citizens? I'm
David Bryfman (14:12):
really interested in the phrase to be a Jew in the
house and to be a French personin the streets. And I'm
wondering, Is that still thefeeling today, or is it, is it
more open today than it was inthe past. It's a strange thing
to say in a modern Westernworld, I guess that you need to
have one identity inside yourhouse and another identity in
the streets. And I'm wondering,is it a separate is it really as
(14:32):
separate as that? What are thetwo? Is there more overlap
between the two? No, it's
Unknown (14:36):
more of, listen, this was Napoleon 18, something. It's
more of an overlap. I just whatI want to say by that is that
today, most French Jews have avery good equilibrium. I don't
know how to say this in English.
I always struggle with thisword. There's a very good
balance between those identitiesand such a good balance that
(14:57):
they just blend naturally. I.
Means I go home and I don't feelless French than I feel when I'm
in the street taking the subwayto go back home. I think the
point is that you you can demandfrom the country as much as you
participate to its life. Andthat's really the message that
comes across if you only look atyour traditions and only keep
(15:19):
your tradition and stop being anactive citizen in the country in
which you live, then this is notthe right partnership. I think
this is the idea that's behindit. And the proof that we have
for that is that we have some ofour people, some of very good
representation in the politicalworld. We have a very good
representation in the more localpolitical world, and for that,
(15:43):
we're extremely proud to seesome of the people of our
community that represent us. Theconstitution is not the same as
in America, and showing signs ofreligion is not at all the same
in America and in France. I justremind everyone listening to us
that in official buildings, youcannot wear any sign of
religion, whether it is anecklace with a cross or a
(16:04):
necklace with a Magen David oror hijab or a scarf or even a
beard, sometimes because thoseare called sign of religion. And
this is one of the maindifferences with America, which
is that you keep your religionas something more intimate for
yourself, that being said, thegovernment since 1905 we have an
agreement, just like for theCatholic schools. The Jews also
(16:27):
fought at this. At the time whenthere was a separation of church
and state in 1905 the Jewsfought with, together with the
Christians, to have their ownreligious schools so they were
still Jewish schools. The rightfor having Jewish schools and
the right? Why? Because we'recountry of freedom, and the
government continues to give uscontracts of partnership for
(16:48):
some of our schools to continuehaving our teachers paid by the
Ministry of Education, which isa very strong thing to say you
are you're supposed to be goodcitizens, you're French, but you
can also be Jewish, and you caneven benefit for some advantages
and some of the structures thatthe country has to offer.
Devorah,
David Bryfman (17:06):
what changed for you and what changed for the
Jews in France after October 7?
Unknown (17:12):
What did not change after October 7, I personally
did not change my name on myUber app. I'm still called
Devora because most of myfriends did, they changed the
first name by taking a moreFrench sounding name for me.
What I did not change is myaddress. I did not decide yet to
(17:37):
change country or to changeaddress. I'm privileged to live
in a in a neighborhood where Idon't need to worry about that.
Personally, I don't know if it'sbecause I'm closer to the age of
50, but on a personal level,what has changed is that I lack
patience today. I don't think Ihave time. We have time anymore.
We cannot allow ourselves towaste too much time on thinking
(17:57):
sometimes even if there's a bigchance that we are going to make
mistakes. I don't think we canbe too inactive and we can spend
too much on thinking andprepping ourselves for impactful
programs. And bottom line for myfriends and my family and the
people I'm close to, Israel hasbecome a real question as to
(18:21):
making it our next destination.
And
David Bryfman (18:24):
you have lots of personal connections to Israel
as well. Obviously, lots
Unknown (18:28):
of personal connections. One of my cousins
was killed in the Nova at theNova concert and event. I have
my in laws living in Israel. Ihave my father in Israel, I have
my mother buried in Israel. Hasbeen very difficult to go to
Israel for even for the Yorksite every year. Yeah, on a
(18:49):
personal level, and I want tosay on the community level, we
never felt in France, there's avery, very strong relationship
with Israel, probably becausewe're so close to Israel, and
probably also, because when thefamilies needed to decide after
they were ex, I mean, after theywere let go from the countries
in North Africa, many of themhad to decide where to go to,
(19:12):
and many families choose, chose,sorry, to split. Some of them
would go to America. That'sexactly what happened in the
family of my grandmother. Two ofthem went to Israel, one of them
went to America, and the sisterswent together to France, just a
little bit the Rothschild modeland so, so, so, of course, we
all have cousins in Israel. Weall have families. We all have
(19:32):
friends. And on a personallevel, it's been I'm the mother
of teenagers. We're going tofinish high school very soon.
And the question is being asked,What do we do next year? Where
do we go? Obviously, there arethe studies, and there's the
army. And how much can I acceptto leave with the fact that my
son is going to be taught how tofight and how to fight, having
(19:54):
weapons with weapons, and notjust with words and with the
intellectual thinking. Oh.
David Bryfman (20:00):
Ah, so much, so much there to just to breathe
and to pause and reflect upon.
But I want to ask you about thisconcept called Jewish
peoplehood. When you hear theterm Jewish peoplehood, what do
you think about?
Unknown (20:13):
Interesting, because this term doesn't exist in
French. I try to translate it tofind a little bit of, how can I
say of depth into thisconversation people who does not
exist in French, but Levinas,who was actually a teacher for
the Allianz Israeli universal,because he was in the Inyo,
which was the school of trainingschool for all the teachers that
(20:36):
came from everywhere, because wetrained teachers for our
schools. Levinas was saying thatpeople who the notion of being a
reviv to be, it's basically theresponsibility. What makes me
what is the common link that Ihave with you, coming from
Australia or America, is onlythe responsibility that I have
towards you. And he talks a lotabout the face, what I see in
(20:59):
the other one is actually whatis what I should be seeing in
what is my responsibility. Whenyou need to stand for each
other, you will always find andI call that brotherhood, rather
than calling it people who, thebond goes way beyond, people who
it goes much further. And howdoes it go further to Mia it's
(21:21):
sometimes, as a brother, even ifyou don't understand what your
brother's doing or your sister'sdoing, you're still going to be
there. You're not going tojudge. You're not going to think
twice if your brother needs you,you're there for him or for her.
And this is the way I see it,and I do not need to know in
which synagogue, which synagogueyou attend, and if you believe
that women should be rabbis. Andif you think that we should all
(21:43):
keep six hours, three hours, orjust like in my case, one hour,
because I have a Dutch husband,I do not I do not need to know
all of this to know that I needto be there for, for for my
brothers and sisters, whetherthey are in Australia or in
Israel. But I do want to saysomething what makes me sad is
that we only remember peoplehoodand those notions of being there
(22:06):
for each other when we're intimes of difficulties. There's
still too little. And I'm happyyou mentioned this conference
where we met again, because thisexisted prior to October 7, and
it's a new it's a newinitiative, but there are too
many. We tend to forget wheneverything goes well that we
still need to be there for eachother.
David Bryfman (22:26):
Let me ask you this question, and you may or
may not agree with the premise,but I've been in many global
Jewish forums when it seems likethere are three Jewish
communities really present.
There's Israel, there's America,and then there's everybody else,
and sometimes the everybody elsedoesn't quite get the same
recognition or the same the samevoice as some of the other two
(22:48):
larger communities.
Unknown (22:51):
I think that there is in the French Jewish people. And
we go back to the beginning ofthis conversation, a balance
between this dual identity thatis leading today to so much
creativity that it's almost sadthat we are not able to
communicate and to make it amodel that others could be
(23:12):
inspired by. There is so muchbeing done today that totally
aligned, whether they are Jewishvalues or French values aligned
with Bertie e Galileefraternity? And I think that we
we are holding on to somethingthat is so important, because
France would not be the sametoday without its Jews. And I
(23:35):
know it sounds like a verypolitical thing to say, it is
not. It's a historical it'sproven. There's a lot of work
being done on that France wouldnot be the same today without
its Jews that are here since theantiquity, since the Greeks and
the Romans. And therefore Ibelieve that what makes us
strong is not only what we aretoday, which is very comparable
(23:55):
to the Jews in North America orthe Jews in Israel, but what
makes us so special is theheritage that we have from that
history and the great figuresthat led us. There's so much
that we can learn from all ofthat. I think those are stories
that we're not telling enough,and I think we're totally
responsible for it, and whereother people could benefit and
(24:17):
learn from.
David Bryfman (24:18):
It's a really poignant response that so much
of our work in Jewish educationis often spent trying to make
our we'll call them youngpeople, but make our learners
more Jewish. Exactly, in someways, your response has said
yes, and by making them moreJewish, they're also going to be
more French, which is a really,it's a really interesting
response, because therefore thepurpose of Jewish education
(24:40):
really has these dual paralleltracks, which you don't see as
being incompatible with oneanother at all.
Unknown (24:46):
France gave after the Revolution, when it finally gave
rights to the Jews to be justlike any other French citizen,
took us out of the statel andthe mela and I am not willing to
date, just because some peopleare trying. To reduce us to our
status of Jews only, to go backto a state or to a mellah, and
that is exactly what thesituation is trying to force us
(25:10):
to do, and to push us to do. Andtoday, when I meet with young
kids, I tell them, you don'twant to be a rabbi. It's fine.
You don't want to be a teacher,no problem, but you're going to
first, if you have some freetime, come to us, because we're
going to train you to be aleader, to give some of your
time to whether it is asynagogue or a congregation or a
grassroot project, because weneed you to have this voice. I
(25:30):
want to have a strong Jewishlobbying in France. I want our
people to be in the top schoolsand to enter the top levels of
this society, whether it is inpolitics or in business or in
finance or whatever it is,because what the situation is
pushing us to do is to go backto the shtetl or to the mela.
And honestly, that is not theway I see Jewish people in
(25:51):
France, because that's not whatFrance the rights that it gave
us. We should take advantage ofit, and I am not going to give
back this advantage. And veryinterestingly enough, if you
look at where the Jews livetoday, when they live in a city,
there's no state or there's noyou can't say. If you ask me,
What's a Jewish neighborhoodtoday? I will pinpoint to some
areas, very few, but Jews arescattered everywhere. That's
(26:14):
because they're not pushed tolive together, to feel
protected. I will tell yousomething else we are not
capable and able to have hatsalain Paris or in the big cities,
just because Jews don't livenext to each other. So if you
have a volunteer in case of aproblem, you won't be close
enough, because we all live sofar away from each other that
it's when I was young. I grew upin a neighborhood I had to walk
(26:35):
45 minutes to go to school, andthat was just the usual. Why?
Because we didn't try, per se,to live very close to each other
and to live among ourselves andeverything. There's no roof in
Paris. There's no eruv. It'sbecause we cannot. We're so far
away from each other that theywon't be only in Strasbourg as
their roof, because they there.
They do have, probably becausetheir proximity with Germany
gave them the in the heritage ofthe state. Oh, but still doesn't
(26:59):
exist in France, and so to reactto what you said, being a good
Jew will allow you to be anexcellent French person, and
that is exactly what we'retrying to do at the Alliance.
David Bryfman (27:11):
So what other advice would you give to Jewish
educators today? You've got ayou've got a forum here, a
global forum of Jewish educatorsand people that care about
Jewish education. What's amessage that you have for all of
them today. So
Unknown (27:22):
just because I'm a woman and because I am close to
being 50, I think everyoneunderstood that I still go back
very often to the woman I waswhen I was 2025, you know, it's
a it's an amazing exercise todo, to talk to yourself, to talk
to yourself as being either aneight year old or 20 or 25 and
(27:44):
I'm hoping that many of yourlisteners today are around those
ages, and 25 is the right age toask yourself, what you'll be
doing the next decade. I willfirst have a message for the
young women who are listeningtoday because I was a young
woman and I knew that it wouldnot be easy to become a leader
(28:06):
in a world of men. And today, ofcourse, when I was 25 there was
no law for gender equity andthere was no ratios, and there
was no positive discriminationtoward women. You really had to
fight and to fight hard, but youcouldn't fight if you didn't
know what you were fighting for.
So one piece of advice, if youallow me to continue on that
path, is for all the women whoare listening to us, and the
(28:28):
first step if you do want torepair this world with Jewish
education, I strongly advise youto pause. It's okay. You have
time for it. Find your innervoice. What is gonna make you
wake up every day? Because lifeis gonna be challenging for you
as a woman. You might want tobecome a mother, you might want
to become a wife or a partner.
You might want you're gonna havedifferent lives to live in
(28:51):
parallel, and you're going tohave to have enough motivation,
enough every morning to wake upand fight. Because it is a
fight. It is an end, and it'stotally okay for and I'm totally
fine with what I'm gonna say,you're gonna have to fight maybe
twice more or even three timesmore than a man will have to
fight, because men will alsofight, but you will have to
(29:12):
fight even more to continuedoing what you need to do every
day for many reasons, but youwill not keep be capable of
doing it every day if you do notknow what you wake up for, and
if the answer to those questionsare only technical and
administrative, it's one way ofanswering it. But you need to
find meaning, find the reasonwhy you want to go into Jewish
(29:33):
education, find one directionand stick to it and make choices
around this one reason you'regoing to wake up every day and
go and fight for advancing thiscause, and afterwards, the
second step I want to tell toall the women who are listening,
especially the young ones,because I know how it feels,
you're going to have to go andfight against this imposter
(29:54):
syndrome that we all have, andmostly women have. Do not let
anyone tell you that. You willnot be able to or you're going
to be a bigger fool of yourself,or it's going to be hard and the
way is going to be long. Noproblem always take time. Every
path you will choose will taketime, but you will find the
resources in yourself and inmentors and in people who will
(30:16):
suggest you different ideas anddifferent ways of looking at
things you need to look at, butyou really need to find strength
inside yourself, coming fromyourself and coming from people
who are outside, and thosepeople will lead you and will
help you get to achieve and totouch as much as possible your
(30:36):
goals and your and your vision.
Devorah, final
David Bryfman (30:40):
question for you, who is an educator in your life,
maybe a mentor, but who issomeone who has inspired and
transformed to help make youinto the educator that you are
today?
Unknown (30:49):
I'll have to give you a very standard answer, but I have
to talk about my mother. I haveto answer you that my and I was
not able to say that when I was25 not even when I was 30, and
probably not even when I was 35but my the person that
influenced me the most was mymother, for very simple reasons.
(31:10):
She also had a dream, and shealso took a very different path
than than the path that her herown parents gave her were very
integrated and very assimilatedin the French country, French
citizenship, French ideal oflife. She decided to strengthen
her Jewish identity. In doingthat, she came into a position
(31:33):
to her own parents, who tried toassimilate them as much as
possible so they could integrateand have the best and take the
best of this country, but shetook it a very different path,
but always very balanced. Andwhen I say I'm not willing to
give up any of the rights thatwere given to me, it's also
because I acknowledge thisheritage. For my grandparents,
(31:54):
they fought enough whileeducating their children, while
giving up extremely good statusin Algeria and going all the way
down to having very smallneighborhood supermarket open
24/7 they fought enough for metoday to say, I am not willing
to give up. And basically, thisis, this is my history. This is
(32:17):
the small history in the BigHistory. This is the small story
in The Big History. And when Isay, find your inner voice, it's
also find your roots. Find outwhat was given to you, whether
it was said or not said, whetherit was obvious or not obvious,
to make it yours and to make ityour strength and to make it
what you are today.
David Bryfman (32:36):
Laura, thank you.
Thanks so much for for sharingwith all of us today. Thanks so
much for offering a boldperspective on Jewish life in
France that I do really feel hasimplications for World jury and
this concept of Jewishpeoplehood, or maybe we'll call
it now, Jewish fraternity, but Ireally appreciate just your
openness and willingness to talkabout all of these issues. So
(32:57):
thanks so much for being part ofadapting today.
Unknown (33:00):
Thank you so much for giving me the possibility to
speak about French jewelry insuch a deep way to American and
North American listeners. Thankyou so much.
David Bryfman (33:11):
Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
nessa lieben. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
J Vaughan of njv media. If youenjoyed adapting today and this
season, please leave us a fivestar rating on Apple podcast,
or, even better, share it with afriend, maybe someone who you
know in France to learn moreabout the Jewish education
project, visitus@jewishedproject.org There you
(33:31):
can see more about our missionhistory and our staff. As
always, we are a proud partnerof UJA Federation of New York.
And thank you as always forlistening today, i.
Hi everybody, and we are recording today's episode
(00:02):
January 6, 2025 today'sdiscussion with Devorah Sarao
from France is a continuation ofmany of the conversations that
we've had about Jewishpeoplehood, except that this
time, it's from someone outsideof America and outside of
Israel, and that's part of thepoint here to see what this
Jewish people hood concept meansbeyond some of the traditional
geographic understandings of theworld in which we live today.
(00:25):
But it's more than that, becauseDevorah is not just contributing
to the discussion, but she'sadding a considerable voice and
a considerable voice from acommunity that is often
overlooked. And what we try anduncover here is how much the
rest of world Jewry can actuallylearn from the French Jewish
experience, acknowledging thatit is both a unique experience,
but there are many themes whichare really ubiquitous, things
(00:46):
that we can all learn from insome really poignant ways. And
importantly for me, thisconversation was also about a
bit of a rebuttal against someof the mainstream media
portrayals about French Jewishcommunity, that it's not
necessarily the end of FrenchJewish community as we might
know it today. In fact, Devorahpaints the opposite picture,
that it is a thriving Jewishcommunity with thriving Jewish
(01:08):
education, despite some of thecurrent complexities related to
anti semitism and discomfort inthat particular country. So it's
a really enjoyable episode froma really strong Jewish educator.
Might I say, a strong Jewishfemale educator with a lot of
really strong contributions tomake to the overall conversation
about Jewish education in theworld today. And I think you'll
(01:30):
enjoy today's episode ofadapting as much as I did. This
is adapting the future of Jewisheducation, a podcast from the
Jewish education project wherewe explore the big questions,
challenges and successes thatdefine Jewish education. I'm
David breifman.
(01:51):
I am really pleased to be ableto welcome Devora cerao, who is
the CEO of the AllianceIsraelite universe. I think I
pronounced that correctly, andthat is an organization in
France which is really dedicatedto promoting Jewish education in
the French Jewish community. Iwant to add that DeVore and I
were recently together in Israelamongst 40 Jewish educational
(02:12):
leaders from 14 countries, andthere we gathered as part of a
forum convened by fourcompletely, well, not
completely, but four verydifferent organizations, the
Ministry of diaspora affairs andcombating anti semitism united
the education and Zionistenterprise of the department of
the World Zionist Organization,the Jewish Agency for Israel and
(02:32):
the Pinkus foundation for Jewisheducation. And I don't mention
it lightly that fourorganizations came together for
this really global experience ofJewish educators. But it was
part of this forum where Devorahand I were able to have many
conversations about the futureof Jewish education, the future
of Israel education, and what itmeans to be part of the Jewish
people. And with that, Devorah,thank you so much for joining us
(02:52):
on adapting today.
Unknown (02:54):
Thank you. Merci, Bucha. All right, so just start
off by telling
David Bryfman (02:57):
us all a bit about the work that you're
currently doing. Sure.
Unknown (03:01):
So if you allow me, I'll just go back a tiny bit in
history. I will go back all theway to 1860 where the alliance
was funded, because it's a veryimportant history to tell, to
understand the French Jewry andto understand, maybe the
relationship between Frenchpeople and French Jewish
community to its Sephardicheritage. Basically in 1860 the
(03:24):
Jews, some Jews in France, werebenefiting from the rights that
were given to them just afterthe French Revolution. They were
benefiting it so much that thesocial elevator worked very well
for them, very, very well.
Therefore, they started to worryand to feel a lot of concern for
their brothers and sisters wholived all around the
Mediterranean Sea in what wecall the Sephardic countries,
(03:46):
and where there were actually norights for those Jews and for
this part of the family thatthey had, and they started to
think that they were so lucky tobe in France and to have all
those rights. How come thoseJews around the Mediterraneans
he couldn't benefit from it, andAdolf Premier, the same
criminal, gave the Frenchnationality to the Jews in
(04:07):
Algeria was a very famouslawyer, also funded and was the
first president of the Alliancedecided in 1860 with some of his
friends, some very importantpeople and very wealthy people,
to come and assist thosebrothers and sisters, and the
first step they took intoassisting them was to create the
first Jewish education network.
(04:29):
Before second world war. Therewere 50,000 children in the
Jewish schools of the Allianceall around the Mediterranean
sea, and all taught in French.
We continue to maintain schoolsin France, in Morocco and in
Israel. We also maintain alibrary and archives all the of
the history of all those Jewishthose countries that had big
(04:52):
population of Jews. So we havevery rare archives about the
Jews of saloniki, of Turkey. HeMorocco, etc, etc. And we also
want to have an impact on thefuture of education and
leadership in front. And so wehave programs of leadership,
young leadership program, wherewe select a group of young women
and men who want to commit andhave some kind of part to play
(05:15):
for the future of the Jewishcommunity in France, and
therefore we train them. We havealso a very important cultural
and training center where wetrain teachers, and not only
Jewish teachers for Jewishschools, we also train, for
example, public schools,teachers to the what we call
connaissance, Judaism, knowledgeand discovery of what it is to
be Jewish today in France, fromthe perspective of Humanities
(05:38):
and what Judaism has to bring tothe culture and the society,
specifically in France, butoverall in the world. So let's
David Bryfman (05:47):
talk a bit about the Jews of France today. I'll
ask you a few questions, andyou'll give me as many answers
as you can to these data points.
So how many Jews live in Francetoday? So
Unknown (05:56):
depending on how you calculate and how you count,
who's Jewish, but we can allagree that there are 500,000
Jews today in France, whichmakes it the biggest community
in Europe and the third in theworld, just after Israel and in
the United States.
And what cities do those Jewsmainly live in? So they are
obviously themain cities that you and me
know, which is Paris, Marseille,Lyon, Strasbourg, and smaller
(06:17):
communities such as Bordeaux,Montpellier, Toulouse, etc. How
David Bryfman (06:24):
do you describe the ethnic makeup of French
Jewry today?
Unknown (06:28):
So as in any European country after the show, after
Second World War, Ashkenazi Jewswere coming either from Russia
or Eastern Europe, and becauseFrance was very much an
Ashkenazi community. Very, veryfew came back. And around the
50s and the 60s, when NorthAfrica was either decolonized or
(06:50):
Jews had to run away from thosecountries. So basically today,
it became an extremely, it is anextremely Sephardic Jewish
community, which means that ithas its habits, it has its
customs, it has its way of lifeand of practicing Judaism, and
therefore it is rathermainstream Orthodox community.
(07:10):
Obviously there's also, justlike in the rest of the Jewish
world, we see a lot of inputfrom the Chabad organizations,
and we see a lot of activismcoming also from different
Zionists and Israeli structures,but it is mostly, I would say,
up to 70, 80% even a Sephardiccommunity, knowing that it is
(07:34):
not exactly the same as it is inAmerica. For example, we do not
have Iranian Jews. We do nothave Parisian Jews. We didn't do
not have Libyan Jews, but wehave mostly North African Jews.
And
David Bryfman (07:47):
in terms of Jewish education, what
percentage of childrenapproximately go to Jewish day
schools in France? So
Unknown (07:52):
that's a very interesting question. Actually,
we have what we call becausethis is a very important key
element to have and to knowabout French Jewish education,
there is a partnership with theMinistry of Education, which
means that all our teachers, ifyou have a contract with the
Ministry of Education, all theteachers of secular studies are
paid by the government, by theMinistry of Education. So that's
(08:13):
a way that the school, theprivate school, does not have to
carry but the school still, as aparent, you still need to pay
fees, and it's an average of6000 euros per child and per
year, including the warm koshermeals at in the middle of the
day, because no Jewish motherwants to send her child or his
child in a structure where theywon't serve a warm meal, warm
(08:34):
kosher meal. And that is really,really something that's very
strong and very important in theprobably Sephardic culture, but
I would say overall in theJewish culture. So today,
there's about 100,000 childrenin the age of being in school,
of which a third is in theJewish school, another third in
(08:55):
the public school, and anotherlast third in the private
Catholic schools.
David Bryfman (09:00):
And what other types of Jewish education exists
in France for French Jewry?
Unknown (09:04):
So you will find, obviously, different
organizations that have Jewishcamps, and you have
organizations that are in moreyouth movements. And therefore
they will also offer not onlyactivities on weekends and
Shabbat, but also during thesummer. And you have, obviously
the Sunday School, which is notat all the same as you know, in
America, Sunday School, which iscalled here in France, the
(09:26):
Talmud Torah, which is actuallya heritage already from also
from North Africa, because themodel was also implemented in
North Africa, some kids could goto the French speaking school in
Algeria, especially, or even InMorocco, in Tunisia, and go on
regular days to their publicschool or to their Jewish
schools. But the talmidura ismostly for Jewish kids or in
(09:47):
public schools or Catholicschools, and they go Sunday
morning to study the basics ofHebrew and of Jewish history.
David Bryfman (09:54):
Dvoriov explained a pretty vibrant, exciting
Jewish life in France. Yes.
Unknown (10:00):
You're welcome to come to us discover it, but it comes
with its challenges regardingtraditional communities, where
tradition is very well kept, andwhere every innovation is taken
very slowly. And by that, Ithink you can understand in
between the words and my words,that every innovation takes
time, but every change, justlike any change, once you do the
(10:24):
change, no one knows anymore howwe used to do it before, and
hopefully this is what we aretrying to lead, especially us
women, because I do believe thatwe have some facilities to lead
change in a world that'sconstantly changing, but that
David Bryfman (10:39):
vibrancy that you describe, and that excitement
that I can hear, even in yourvoice and from knowing you a
little bit, is not necessarilythe message that the rest of the
world hears about the Jews inFrance, it doesn't take much
time to come across an articlewhen you put French Jewry into
Google to hear about all of thenegative parts about being a
French Jew today. In fact, evenrecently, I believe it was the
(11:01):
the senior rabbi in France evensaid there is no future for the
Jews in France as well. So howdo you reconcile what these the
obvious rise in anti semitism inFrance and the and the vibrancy
of Jewish life there? Well,
Unknown (11:14):
I don't see so much of an opposition in a contradiction
in what you are telling me. Iwill tell you that from since
Napoleon, who started toorganize the Jewish life in
France, as you might know, hesaid you we should give
everything to the Jews, as longas they practice Judaism inside
their homes and everything asFrench people, as long as
(11:35):
they're French outside theirhomes. Just understand that this
identity, this dual identity,was implemented already, since
they were in North Africa,because they were teaching it. I
just want to tell you a littlestory about it, Charles de
Gaulle, when he was electedafter the war, and he came back
after the war to rebuild thecountry in France, appointed a
president in the of the name ofRene Cassandra. Rene cassan was
(11:56):
the author of the Okay, now Ineed to translate that into
English. You see, now you'rechallenging me. Declaration de
rodolum, the Declaration ofHuman Rights. He was the author.
He was the one who organized it,and he was also the president of
the Alliance for 30 years.
Charles de Gaulle himselfappointed Rene Cass as one of
his closest advisor, and personworked for him as the president
(12:16):
of the Alliance. There was ahuge impact from the Alliance,
because they taught in French ata time where French was trying
to be superior to English andwas trying to occupy the world.
Why am I telling you about this?
Because there is something very,very deep in the heart of the
French Jewish people, and a verybig pride and acknowledgement of
(12:40):
what France gave the its Jewswhen they came back, especially
when they came back to Franceafter they were they had to
leave. I won't say they wereexpelled, but they had to leave
from Morocco, Tunisia, andespecially Algeria, where it was
much more violent toward them.
They came back to France. And ifyou compare, you know there was
a very good documentary, if youcompare how the social elevator
(13:01):
worked for the Jews who camefrom those countries to France
and those who came from thosecountries to Israel, and how it
worked for them in France, itworked perfectly well for them.
The second and third generationsmade it to a certain level of
comfort by studying, by workingreally hard, and where it didn't
work the same in Israel, forexample. So yes, there's a very
(13:24):
big duality, and the focus ofthe newspapers on telling the
history of the Jews sufferingfrom anti semitism is true. But
at the same time, we continue tolack space in our Jewish
schools. We continue to lackspace in our synagogues. We're
still recruiting rabbis werestill having a lot of
activities, and Jewish life isstill vibrant. I would summarize
it by saying that the Jews inFrance are not willing to give
(13:47):
up everything they have heard bybeing French citizens since the
day after the French Revolution.
No one here wants to give it up.
Some of us consider another lifein Israel, whether it is for
ourselves or for our children,but under no circumstances will
we give up our rights and willwe give up our status of French
(14:08):
Jewish citizens? I'm
David Bryfman (14:12):
really interested in the phrase to be a Jew in the
house and to be a French personin the streets. And I'm
wondering, Is that still thefeeling today, or is it, is it
more open today than it was inthe past. It's a strange thing
to say in a modern Westernworld, I guess that you need to
have one identity inside yourhouse and another identity in
the streets. And I'm wondering,is it a separate is it really as
(14:32):
separate as that? What are thetwo? Is there more overlap
between the two? No, it's
Unknown (14:36):
more of, listen, this was Napoleon 18, something. It's
more of an overlap. I just whatI want to say by that is that
today, most French Jews have avery good equilibrium. I don't
know how to say this in English.
I always struggle with thisword. There's a very good
balance between those identitiesand such a good balance that
(14:57):
they just blend naturally. I.
Means I go home and I don't feelless French than I feel when I'm
in the street taking the subwayto go back home. I think the
point is that you you can demandfrom the country as much as you
participate to its life. Andthat's really the message that
comes across if you only look atyour traditions and only keep
(15:19):
your tradition and stop being anactive citizen in the country in
which you live, then this is notthe right partnership. I think
this is the idea that's behindit. And the proof that we have
for that is that we have some ofour people, some of very good
representation in the politicalworld. We have a very good
representation in the more localpolitical world, and for that,
(15:43):
we're extremely proud to seesome of the people of our
community that represent us. Theconstitution is not the same as
in America, and showing signs ofreligion is not at all the same
in America and in France. I justremind everyone listening to us
that in official buildings, youcannot wear any sign of
religion, whether it is anecklace with a cross or a
(16:04):
necklace with a Magen David oror hijab or a scarf or even a
beard, sometimes because thoseare called sign of religion. And
this is one of the maindifferences with America, which
is that you keep your religionas something more intimate for
yourself, that being said, thegovernment since 1905 we have an
agreement, just like for theCatholic schools. The Jews also
(16:27):
fought at this. At the time whenthere was a separation of church
and state in 1905 the Jewsfought with, together with the
Christians, to have their ownreligious schools so they were
still Jewish schools. The rightfor having Jewish schools and
the right? Why? Because we'recountry of freedom, and the
government continues to give uscontracts of partnership for
(16:48):
some of our schools to continuehaving our teachers paid by the
Ministry of Education, which isa very strong thing to say you
are you're supposed to be goodcitizens, you're French, but you
can also be Jewish, and you caneven benefit for some advantages
and some of the structures thatthe country has to offer.
Devorah,
David Bryfman (17:06):
what changed for you and what changed for the
Jews in France after October 7?
Unknown (17:12):
What did not change after October 7, I personally
did not change my name on myUber app. I'm still called
Devora because most of myfriends did, they changed the
first name by taking a moreFrench sounding name for me.
What I did not change is myaddress. I did not decide yet to
(17:37):
change country or to changeaddress. I'm privileged to live
in a in a neighborhood where Idon't need to worry about that.
Personally, I don't know if it'sbecause I'm closer to the age of
50, but on a personal level,what has changed is that I lack
patience today. I don't think Ihave time. We have time anymore.
We cannot allow ourselves towaste too much time on thinking
(17:57):
sometimes even if there's a bigchance that we are going to make
mistakes. I don't think we canbe too inactive and we can spend
too much on thinking andprepping ourselves for impactful
programs. And bottom line for myfriends and my family and the
people I'm close to, Israel hasbecome a real question as to
(18:21):
making it our next destination.
And
David Bryfman (18:24):
you have lots of personal connections to Israel
as well. Obviously, lots
Unknown (18:28):
of personal connections. One of my cousins
was killed in the Nova at theNova concert and event. I have
my in laws living in Israel. Ihave my father in Israel, I have
my mother buried in Israel. Hasbeen very difficult to go to
Israel for even for the Yorksite every year. Yeah, on a
(18:49):
personal level, and I want tosay on the community level, we
never felt in France, there's avery, very strong relationship
with Israel, probably becausewe're so close to Israel, and
probably also, because when thefamilies needed to decide after
they were ex, I mean, after theywere let go from the countries
in North Africa, many of themhad to decide where to go to,
(19:12):
and many families choose, chose,sorry, to split. Some of them
would go to America. That'sexactly what happened in the
family of my grandmother. Two ofthem went to Israel, one of them
went to America, and the sisterswent together to France, just a
little bit the Rothschild modeland so, so, so, of course, we
all have cousins in Israel. Weall have families. We all have
(19:32):
friends. And on a personallevel, it's been I'm the mother
of teenagers. We're going tofinish high school very soon.
And the question is being asked,What do we do next year? Where
do we go? Obviously, there arethe studies, and there's the
army. And how much can I acceptto leave with the fact that my
son is going to be taught how tofight and how to fight, having
(19:54):
weapons with weapons, and notjust with words and with the
intellectual thinking. Oh.
David Bryfman (20:00):
Ah, so much, so much there to just to breathe
and to pause and reflect upon.
But I want to ask you about thisconcept called Jewish
peoplehood. When you hear theterm Jewish peoplehood, what do
you think about?
Unknown (20:13):
Interesting, because this term doesn't exist in
French. I try to translate it tofind a little bit of, how can I
say of depth into thisconversation people who does not
exist in French, but Levinas,who was actually a teacher for
the Allianz Israeli universal,because he was in the Inyo,
which was the school of trainingschool for all the teachers that
(20:36):
came from everywhere, because wetrained teachers for our
schools. Levinas was saying thatpeople who the notion of being a
reviv to be, it's basically theresponsibility. What makes me
what is the common link that Ihave with you, coming from
Australia or America, is onlythe responsibility that I have
towards you. And he talks a lotabout the face, what I see in
(20:59):
the other one is actually whatis what I should be seeing in
what is my responsibility. Whenyou need to stand for each
other, you will always find andI call that brotherhood, rather
than calling it people who, thebond goes way beyond, people who
it goes much further. And howdoes it go further to Mia it's
(21:21):
sometimes, as a brother, even ifyou don't understand what your
brother's doing or your sister'sdoing, you're still going to be
there. You're not going tojudge. You're not going to think
twice if your brother needs you,you're there for him or for her.
And this is the way I see it,and I do not need to know in
which synagogue, which synagogueyou attend, and if you believe
that women should be rabbis. Andif you think that we should all
(21:43):
keep six hours, three hours, orjust like in my case, one hour,
because I have a Dutch husband,I do not I do not need to know
all of this to know that I needto be there for, for for my
brothers and sisters, whetherthey are in Australia or in
Israel. But I do want to saysomething what makes me sad is
that we only remember peoplehoodand those notions of being there
(22:06):
for each other when we're intimes of difficulties. There's
still too little. And I'm happyyou mentioned this conference
where we met again, because thisexisted prior to October 7, and
it's a new it's a newinitiative, but there are too
many. We tend to forget wheneverything goes well that we
still need to be there for eachother.
David Bryfman (22:26):
Let me ask you this question, and you may or
may not agree with the premise,but I've been in many global
Jewish forums when it seems likethere are three Jewish
communities really present.
There's Israel, there's America,and then there's everybody else,
and sometimes the everybody elsedoesn't quite get the same
recognition or the same the samevoice as some of the other two
(22:48):
larger communities.
Unknown (22:51):
I think that there is in the French Jewish people. And
we go back to the beginning ofthis conversation, a balance
between this dual identity thatis leading today to so much
creativity that it's almost sadthat we are not able to
communicate and to make it amodel that others could be
(23:12):
inspired by. There is so muchbeing done today that totally
aligned, whether they are Jewishvalues or French values aligned
with Bertie e Galileefraternity? And I think that we
we are holding on to somethingthat is so important, because
France would not be the sametoday without its Jews. And I
(23:35):
know it sounds like a verypolitical thing to say, it is
not. It's a historical it'sproven. There's a lot of work
being done on that France wouldnot be the same today without
its Jews that are here since theantiquity, since the Greeks and
the Romans. And therefore Ibelieve that what makes us
strong is not only what we aretoday, which is very comparable
(23:55):
to the Jews in North America orthe Jews in Israel, but what
makes us so special is theheritage that we have from that
history and the great figuresthat led us. There's so much
that we can learn from all ofthat. I think those are stories
that we're not telling enough,and I think we're totally
responsible for it, and whereother people could benefit and
(24:17):
learn from.
David Bryfman (24:18):
It's a really poignant response that so much
of our work in Jewish educationis often spent trying to make
our we'll call them youngpeople, but make our learners
more Jewish. Exactly, in someways, your response has said
yes, and by making them moreJewish, they're also going to be
more French, which is a really,it's a really interesting
response, because therefore thepurpose of Jewish education
(24:40):
really has these dual paralleltracks, which you don't see as
being incompatible with oneanother at all.
Unknown (24:46):
France gave after the Revolution, when it finally gave
rights to the Jews to be justlike any other French citizen,
took us out of the statel andthe mela and I am not willing to
date, just because some peopleare trying. To reduce us to our
status of Jews only, to go backto a state or to a mellah, and
that is exactly what thesituation is trying to force us
(25:10):
to do, and to push us to do. Andtoday, when I meet with young
kids, I tell them, you don'twant to be a rabbi. It's fine.
You don't want to be a teacher,no problem, but you're going to
first, if you have some freetime, come to us, because we're
going to train you to be aleader, to give some of your
time to whether it is asynagogue or a congregation or a
grassroot project, because weneed you to have this voice. I
(25:30):
want to have a strong Jewishlobbying in France. I want our
people to be in the top schoolsand to enter the top levels of
this society, whether it is inpolitics or in business or in
finance or whatever it is,because what the situation is
pushing us to do is to go backto the shtetl or to the mela.
And honestly, that is not theway I see Jewish people in
(25:51):
France, because that's not whatFrance the rights that it gave
us. We should take advantage ofit, and I am not going to give
back this advantage. And veryinterestingly enough, if you
look at where the Jews livetoday, when they live in a city,
there's no state or there's noyou can't say. If you ask me,
What's a Jewish neighborhoodtoday? I will pinpoint to some
areas, very few, but Jews arescattered everywhere. That's
(26:14):
because they're not pushed tolive together, to feel
protected. I will tell yousomething else we are not
capable and able to have hatsalain Paris or in the big cities,
just because Jews don't livenext to each other. So if you
have a volunteer in case of aproblem, you won't be close
enough, because we all live sofar away from each other that
it's when I was young. I grew upin a neighborhood I had to walk
(26:35):
45 minutes to go to school, andthat was just the usual. Why?
Because we didn't try, per se,to live very close to each other
and to live among ourselves andeverything. There's no roof in
Paris. There's no eruv. It'sbecause we cannot. We're so far
away from each other that theywon't be only in Strasbourg as
their roof, because they there.
They do have, probably becausetheir proximity with Germany
gave them the in the heritage ofthe state. Oh, but still doesn't
(26:59):
exist in France, and so to reactto what you said, being a good
Jew will allow you to be anexcellent French person, and
that is exactly what we'retrying to do at the Alliance.
David Bryfman (27:11):
So what other advice would you give to Jewish
educators today? You've got ayou've got a forum here, a
global forum of Jewish educatorsand people that care about
Jewish education. What's amessage that you have for all of
them today. So
Unknown (27:22):
just because I'm a woman and because I am close to
being 50, I think everyoneunderstood that I still go back
very often to the woman I waswhen I was 2025, you know, it's
a it's an amazing exercise todo, to talk to yourself, to talk
to yourself as being either aneight year old or 20 or 25 and
(27:44):
I'm hoping that many of yourlisteners today are around those
ages, and 25 is the right age toask yourself, what you'll be
doing the next decade. I willfirst have a message for the
young women who are listeningtoday because I was a young
woman and I knew that it wouldnot be easy to become a leader
(28:06):
in a world of men. And today, ofcourse, when I was 25 there was
no law for gender equity andthere was no ratios, and there
was no positive discriminationtoward women. You really had to
fight and to fight hard, but youcouldn't fight if you didn't
know what you were fighting for.
So one piece of advice, if youallow me to continue on that
path, is for all the women whoare listening to us, and the
(28:28):
first step if you do want torepair this world with Jewish
education, I strongly advise youto pause. It's okay. You have
time for it. Find your innervoice. What is gonna make you
wake up every day? Because lifeis gonna be challenging for you
as a woman. You might want tobecome a mother, you might want
to become a wife or a partner.
You might want you're gonna havedifferent lives to live in
(28:51):
parallel, and you're going tohave to have enough motivation,
enough every morning to wake upand fight. Because it is a
fight. It is an end, and it'stotally okay for and I'm totally
fine with what I'm gonna say,you're gonna have to fight maybe
twice more or even three timesmore than a man will have to
fight, because men will alsofight, but you will have to
(29:12):
fight even more to continuedoing what you need to do every
day for many reasons, but youwill not keep be capable of
doing it every day if you do notknow what you wake up for, and
if the answer to those questionsare only technical and
administrative, it's one way ofanswering it. But you need to
find meaning, find the reasonwhy you want to go into Jewish
(29:33):
education, find one directionand stick to it and make choices
around this one reason you'regoing to wake up every day and
go and fight for advancing thiscause, and afterwards, the
second step I want to tell toall the women who are listening,
especially the young ones,because I know how it feels,
you're going to have to go andfight against this imposter
(29:54):
syndrome that we all have, andmostly women have. Do not let
anyone tell you that. You willnot be able to or you're going
to be a bigger fool of yourself,or it's going to be hard and the
way is going to be long. Noproblem always take time. Every
path you will choose will taketime, but you will find the
resources in yourself and inmentors and in people who will
(30:16):
suggest you different ideas anddifferent ways of looking at
things you need to look at, butyou really need to find strength
inside yourself, coming fromyourself and coming from people
who are outside, and thosepeople will lead you and will
help you get to achieve and totouch as much as possible your
(30:36):
goals and your and your vision.
Devorah, final
David Bryfman (30:40):
question for you, who is an educator in your life,
maybe a mentor, but who issomeone who has inspired and
transformed to help make youinto the educator that you are
today?
Unknown (30:49):
I'll have to give you a very standard answer, but I have
to talk about my mother. I haveto answer you that my and I was
not able to say that when I was25 not even when I was 30, and
probably not even when I was 35but my the person that
influenced me the most was mymother, for very simple reasons.
(31:10):
She also had a dream, and shealso took a very different path
than than the path that her herown parents gave her were very
integrated and very assimilatedin the French country, French
citizenship, French ideal oflife. She decided to strengthen
her Jewish identity. In doingthat, she came into a position
(31:33):
to her own parents, who tried toassimilate them as much as
possible so they could integrateand have the best and take the
best of this country, but shetook it a very different path,
but always very balanced. Andwhen I say I'm not willing to
give up any of the rights thatwere given to me, it's also
because I acknowledge thisheritage. For my grandparents,
(31:54):
they fought enough whileeducating their children, while
giving up extremely good statusin Algeria and going all the way
down to having very smallneighborhood supermarket open
24/7 they fought enough for metoday to say, I am not willing
to give up. And basically, thisis, this is my history. This is
(32:17):
the small history in the BigHistory. This is the small story
in The Big History. And when Isay, find your inner voice, it's
also find your roots. Find outwhat was given to you, whether
it was said or not said, whetherit was obvious or not obvious,
to make it yours and to make ityour strength and to make it
what you are today.
David Bryfman (32:36):
Laura, thank you.
Thanks so much for for sharingwith all of us today. Thanks so
much for offering a boldperspective on Jewish life in
France that I do really feel hasimplications for World jury and
this concept of Jewishpeoplehood, or maybe we'll call
it now, Jewish fraternity, but Ireally appreciate just your
openness and willingness to talkabout all of these issues. So
(32:57):
thanks so much for being part ofadapting today.
Unknown (33:00):
Thank you so much for giving me the possibility to
speak about French jewelry insuch a deep way to American and
North American listeners. Thankyou so much.
David Bryfman (33:11):
Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina
nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides.
The show's executive producersare myself, Karen Cummins and
nessa lieben. Our show isengineered and edited by Nathan
J Vaughan of njv media. If youenjoyed adapting today and this
season, please leave us a fivestar rating on Apple podcast,
or, even better, share it with afriend, maybe someone who you
know in France to learn moreabout the Jewish education
project, visitus@jewishedproject.org There you
(33:31):
can see more about our missionhistory and our staff. As
always, we are a proud partnerof UJA Federation of New York.
And thank you as always forlistening today, i.
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