December 22, 2025 • 46 mins
Stress doesn’t wait for a convenient moment, so why should resilience training wait for a crisis? We sit down with Coach Kay, a PhD serving first responders, ER teams, and other high‑stress professionals, to unpack a practical roadmap for emotional resilience you can actually use. We connect the dots between addiction, overwhelm, and the brain’s survival circuitry, then break down simple steps to recruit the prefrontal cortex, label emotions accurately, and respond with intention instead of impulse.
You’ll hear a clear definition of emotional resilience as a learnable skill and a tour of the six domains that make it concrete: vision, composure, reasoning, health, tenacity, and collaboration. We talk through what a first session looks like, why early “small wins” build momentum, and how honest conversation itself shifts brain chemistry. For clinicians and caregivers, we address the bitter edge of burnout and PTSD and show how third‑person perspective and narrative reframing loosen long‑held patterns without minimizing the pain that created them. If you’re supporting people in recovery, you’ll get language to explain limbic activation, why substances become shortcuts, and how proactive habits restore choice.
This conversation is warm, candid, and grounded: practical journaling prompts, mindfulness tactics, and movement as medicine—whether that’s CrossFit or a neighborhood game of basketball. We make the case for teaching resilience to teens during key developmental windows while reminding everyone that it’s never too late to start. The thread throughout is agency: notice what you feel, understand why, and build rituals that help you act on your values when it counts.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague who’s carrying too much, and leave a review with one resilience practice you’re trying this week. Your story might be the nudge someone else needs.
To learn more about Coach Kay's work: https://www.psyrescoaching.com/about
To contact Dr. Grover: ammadeeasy@fastmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy
podcast.
Hey there, I'm Dr.
Casey Grover, an addictionmedicine doctor based on
(00:20):
California's Central Coast.
For 14 years, I worked in theemergency department, seeing
countless patients strugglingwith addiction.
Now, I'm on the other side ofthe fight, helping people
rebuild their lives when drugsand alcohol take control.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get started.
Today we are going to be talkingabout how to build emotional
(00:43):
resilience.
Now, what's the backstory behindthis episode?
Well, this is an interview withCoach Kay.
I do CrossFit with her and Iasked her after a workout what
her day job was, and she saidthat she had a PhD and worked on
building emotional resilience.
And so, of course, I wasinterested as building emotional
(01:04):
resilience is a lot of what wetry to do when we treat
addiction.
If you think about it, addictionat its core is using substances
to change how we feel, and oftenthat is managing negative
emotions.
People with addiction oftendon't have much emotional
resilience, and that's why theyuse substances to self-regulate.
(01:25):
So when I heard that she helpsbuild emotional resilience, the
first thought that came to mymind was, oh my gosh, I need
that for my patients.
Coach Kay specializes in helpingprofessionals manage the
negative emotions that come withhigh stress work.
People in these professions havesome emotional resilience, but
need to build more to be able toavoid burnout and quitting their
(01:48):
jobs.
So her work is not as much withpeople with addiction, but the
approach that she takes is stillapplicable to people with
addiction.
A few points that I wanted toclarify that came up during our
conversation.
Coach Kay mentioned two parts ofthe brain, and I just wanted to
clarify what they are.
First, the limbic brain.
(02:08):
The limbic brain is a primitivepart of the brain that is
involved with processing andregulating emotion and memory.
It is also home to the behaviorsthat keep us alive: eating,
motivating us to reproduce, andour fight or flight response.
And second, the prefrontalcortex.
The prefrontal cortex is themost highly evolved part of our
(02:30):
brain and is the home of ourexecutive functioning.
It does things like thinkingthrough decisions, setting
goals, and self-control.
So for the sake of ourconversation, you can think of
the limbic brain as ourprimitive survival brain and the
prefrontal cortex as the home ofself-regulation, problem
solving, and complex decisionmaking.
This was a really enlighteningepisode for me, and we are
(02:53):
hoping to come back and doanother episode in the future
focused more on how to helppeople who, for whatever reason,
maybe including addiction, haveless emotional resilience and
really need to build it from theground up.
And with that, here we go.
All right.
I am so excited to have you onmy podcast.
(03:14):
Why don't we start by having youtell us who you are and what you
do?
Yeah.
So my name is Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
Kaelin Switzer, and I am the founder of Cyrus, which
is a holistic health andwellness coaching model designed
to practice proactive mentalhealth with people in high
stress environments,specifically first responders,
law enforcement, nurses, ERpersonnel, those kind of
(03:40):
occupations.
My goal is really to give themthe tools to mitigate their
stress so that they're able tohandle traumatic experiences
when they happen, if theyhappen, rather than needing to
seek help after they'veexperienced something horrible
or traumatic.
So really just giving them thetools up front to be able to
mitigate their own stress andprevent burnout and other
(04:04):
long-term issues.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
Man, I needed you 10 years ago.
I have PTSD from the emergencydepartment.
That was my first job.
Can I refer colleagues to you?
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Yeah, of course.
And I hear that unfortunately alot.
And that was one of the reasonsI decided to go into this field
because a lot of specificallywhen it comes to first
responders like law enforcementand ER personnel, a lot of times
it's wait for something tohappen and then we'll send you
to the doctor, we'll send you tothe therapist and they'll work
with you through what youexperience so that you don't
(04:35):
burn out.
But in reality, it's once you'veexperienced something super
traumatic, if you weren'tprepared to handle that stress
on your mind, there isn't awhole lot more you can do after
the fact to prevent you fromburning out because at that
point you're you just weren'tprepared for it and it was just
an overload on your mind.
So I think my approach wasreally one of the first
(04:57):
proactive approaches to tryingto get ahead of those impacts on
these occupations.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Yeah, we talked about building emotional
resilience.
Now I know what you meant.
Yeah, for sure.
Wow.
Yeah.
I just we just had anotherdoctor start in my practice who,
like me, is emergency medicineand addiction medicine.
And the first thing I told herwas, please take care of your
mental health.
I had no idea I would get PTSDfrom the emergency department.
SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's horrible.
It's horrible.
And it's we need people in thoseoccupations, right?
Those are important fields.
And we need these people toremain strong and we need them
to be able to do their jobs, andwe don't want them burning out.
So it blew my mind when I wasdoing the research that there
was really not a whole lot ofthese proactive approaches to
this.
Why are we not implementingresilience training and
(05:48):
emotional labeling therapy upfront so that people can handle
this kind of occupational stressover the long run?
Why don't we?
I think a lot of it comes downto the science is still pretty
new as far as what the impactsof resilience training can be,
like the positive impacts canbe.
(06:09):
There was a lot of science beingdone on burnout specifically,
but of course it's all lookingat everything retroactively.
So until all of that researchwas published, we didn't really
know what the solutions or whatthe positive impacts of
preventative maintenance orpreventative mental health were.
(06:30):
So it took a lot of time justfor the research to be published
and conducted to understand whatburnout really is and what the
main causes of it are and thevarious ways that we can prevent
it and get ahead of it.
And I think now that we'restarting to understand that, and
there's more and more researchcoming out to show that
proactive approaches toresilience training can help
(06:52):
prevent burnout and preventturnover intentions.
Now we're starting to consider,okay, how do we implement this
on the front end?
So it's still pretty new, Iwould say.
It's not something that a wholelot of people were practicing
because there wasn't a whole lotof support for it, empirical or
otherwise.
But now that it's becoming moreregular and more well known that
(07:15):
it's a helpful tool, it's slowlystarting to become implemented
in these fields.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
So before we talk about what you do, I have one
more question about who you workwith.
Shouldn't every human being onplanet Earth be doing this in
some way?
We all need emotionalresilience.
SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Yes, absolutely.
And I work with everybodypersonally.
I actually really enjoy workingwith people in just day-to-day
lives.
I love helping people reframetheir thought processes and
helping them understand thatwhat they went through wasn't
personal or it wasn't directedat them, but this is how they
can take what they learned fromit and do something positive
(07:52):
with it.
I love getting people tounderstand that it doesn't
really matter what occupation orwhat your day-to-day looks like.
Everybody does need this.
My focus has always been thosehigh stress occupations because
we are seeing unprecedentedlevels of burnout and turnover
in those fields.
And those fields are soincredibly important to our
(08:13):
population that I felt verydrawn to how can I help them.
And in the process, I learned,yes, this is highly beneficial
for everybody, not just them.
So it's been really great justto be able to practice it with
people from all walks of life.
But it's been amazing to reallylearn how it can be impactful on
higher stress situations andoccupations.
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
As we talk through this, I just keep thinking my
patients who have addictionstart with a baseline lower
level of emotional resiliencethan someone who's going to have
a successful career.
And addiction in and of itselfis stressful.
I feel like my patients need youeven more than first responder
who's got a college degree.
(08:54):
I'm just curious how thatresonates with you.
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
I I really appreciate that you see the
importance of what I'm doing andhow it could help a lot of
different populations.
And I would love to work withanybody who would be willing to
sit and listen and work with meon this stuff.
One of the hardest kind ofscenarios I run into with police
(09:18):
officers and other people whohave these really crazy
occupations, let alone theaverage person, is that you have
to want to do it.
And I think one of the biggestproblems when it comes to
individuals who are sufferingfrom addiction or mental health
issues already, or if they havemental health disorders, then if
(09:38):
you're already suffering throughthat, I can't, I can't really
get through to you until we getto the root of that problem
first.
So I've always said thatoutpatient, absolutely.
I could work with somebody tohelp keep them on track and help
keep them accountable and helpthem build these tools moving
forward.
But I've also worked with peoplewho I wasn't the right fit for.
(10:00):
I really wasn't.
They needed a clinician.
They needed a therapist whocould help them work through
what they already wereexperiencing and what they had
already gone through before Iwas ever going to be effective.
And so I think a lot of it comesback to just knowing when I can
actually be impactful tosomebody and when it's not my
turn yet and not maybe not thetime for me to step in.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
So I know how I define emotional resilience in
my practice, but you're anexpert in this.
How do you define emotionalresilience?
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
I would define emotional resilience as the
capacity to notice, understand,and regulate your internal
emotional landscape so that youcan really respond to stressors
effectively rather thanimpulsively.
(10:48):
So it's your ability tounderstand this is what I'm
feeling, this is why I'm feelingit.
And rather than reactingimpulsively based on that
feeling, I can reassess andregulate that emotion and react
in a more cognizant and calmmanner.
(11:09):
So that's how I would define it.
It's more of a skill set than itis something that you just have
or something that you're justborn with, or something that
it's something that everyone canlearn and everyone can develop.
And even if you already havesome of that skill, you can
always improve it.
It's just this ongoingself-awareness and internal
(11:29):
narrative.
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
So you're trying to say that what I was taught in
medical school, which is toshove it down and move on to the
next patient, wasn't the rightanswer?
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Not necessarily.
I wouldn't think that's thebest.
It's actually interesting,though, because in my high
adversity resilience training,one of the things they do
encourage in high stressoccupations is
compartmentalization, which issomething that previously that
was frowned upon.
They're like, we don't want youto compartmentalize things.
(11:58):
That's shoving it down into abox and forgetting about it and
not dealing with it.
But in these high stressoccupations, it's actually
becoming more of a regulartraining to have police officers
or ER nurses compartmentalizewhat they're experiencing so
that they don't take it homewith them.
And it's their way of separatingwork from home life.
(12:20):
So what we were taught in thepast, yeah, of course, there's
not necessarily a whole lot ofvalidation to everything that we
were taught, but we are learningnew ways to approach it and
teach it and train peopleeffectively on it versus just
shove it down and don't thinkabout it anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
So for my addiction patients, they just get so
overwhelmed so easily, which islargely why they turn to
substances, right?
I feel overwhelmed by this.
I'm gonna pick a downer andthat's gonna calm me down and I
can function.
Where do you start with someoneon your first visit?
What's it like?
SPEAKER_02 (12:53):
A lot of the times I try to be very transparent and
educate someone.
I don't try to come at themlike, this is what you're doing,
this is why you're doing it,this is what you're
experiencing, and this is howyou fix it.
That's really not how toapproach anybody in any stage of
their training with emotionalresilience.
I try to be very clear andexplain the neuroscience behind
(13:14):
it and let them know this is thereality is that emotions drive
decision-making behaviors.
And so if you cannot regulateyour own emotions, you are
always going to look for anupper, a downer, or something
that can control that emotionfor you.
So if you're not teachingyourself how to mitigate that or
(13:36):
how to manage those emotions,you're gonna look for whatever
can, whether it's picking upthat pill or having that glass
of wine or whatever the case maybe, whatever that muse is to
settle that emotion, you'regonna seek that out rather than
deal with the problem, the rootcause of the problem.
So I try to be very transparentwith people and just the reality
(13:57):
is this is the way human brainswork.
This is limbic brain activation.
And the only way to counter itis to activate the prefrontal
cortex and to really seriouslysit with yourself and think
about what you're feeling andwhy you're feeling it before
making an impulsive decision onhow to manage what you're
feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
That is so unfortunate for my patients
because in addiction, theprefrontal cortex is
underfunctioning and the limbicbrain is overfunctioning.
Man.
So it sounds like first sessionis just, hey, I'm Dr.
K, or how do you introduceyourself?
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
I actually go by Coach K.
I think it's a little bit moreapproachable.
And I like doing that.
I like getting people to knowthat, like, I'm a doctor, sure,
but I'm not your therapist.
I'm not gonna sit here and tellyou what's wrong with you.
I'm here to work with you and tohelp you see that you're not
broken, but you're you can getbetter at anything you want to.
And I'll explain how and if wecan work together on it.
(14:55):
And it's less of I'm telling youand more I'm cooperating with
you.
Like we're doing this together.
So I think Coach K is moreapproachable.
So yeah, I just go in, I'm CoachK, and I'd love to hear what
brought you to me and how youthink I can help.
And I'd love to give you somemore information on the
neuroscience behind resilienceand all of this emotional
(15:18):
regulation stuff that you hearabout, and we can go from there.
And something usually resonateswith them.
Usually one of those things thatwe discuss will stick with them
and then they'll want to divedeeper into that.
And that's my like hook.
What is it that draw like drewyou to me, drew you to
resilience training or coaching?
What do you want to get out ofit?
(15:39):
Because that's where we want tostart.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
Makes sense that you are focusing on first responders
that are very motivated.
Do you ever get folks that arebrought to you as a you have to
see Coach K, or else, likeyou've got addiction or you got
a DUI, or you're disassociatingat work and you can't function.
You need to get it together.
SPEAKER_02 (16:00):
I am lucky enough to say that I have not had that
yet.
I haven't had anyone forced tosee me.
I don't know how I would handlethat, to be honest.
I think for me, a big part of myphilosophy in working with
people is that I want them tosee their own value, their own
worth.
And with first responders who gothrough something and then they
(16:21):
end up having to go to theshrink to see if they're fit for
duty, right?
They're not gonna want to talkto that person in an honest and
open way and give them therealities or the truth of what
they experienced because thatcould be their job, right?
That could be their gun andbadge.
And so I think for me, if I'mworking with someone who is sent
to me, I can already expect thatthey're not gonna be fully open
with me.
They're not gonna be fullywilling to absorb what I have to
(16:45):
say or how we could worktogether.
And so I think I would have aharder time with that.
I think I genuinely want to workwith people who want to get
something out of it or who areat least curious.
Like if you're a little bitcurious, that's perfect.
That's all I need.
I can take you from there andI'll give you all the
information you need.
At some point, I'm suresomething will stick with you
and you'll want to do more orlearn more.
(17:06):
But if you're just there becauseyou have to be, if you don't, if
you're not interested in it,then you're not gonna get
anything out of it.
And I think there's a lot thatcan be said for pretty much
anything in life.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah.
So session one, it sounds like,is I'm Coach K.
Let's talk about why you'rehere, talk about what you want
to work on.
Let's say you're picking on me.
I'm little baby, Dr.
Grover.
I'm 29 years old.
I just finished residency.
And I say one of my buddies tookcare of a woman who had a
cardiac arrest while she waspregnant, and they did a
(17:36):
perimortem C-section.
I don't know how he dealt withthat.
I'm overwhelmed by being an ERdoc for the next 15 years.
Where do we go from here?
SPEAKER_02 (17:45):
So the first thing I would say is what is the number
one emotion you felt when youheard about that experience or
witnessed it or had that come toyour mind?
What was the first thing youfelt?
And the word I heard from youjust now was overwhelmed.
And so overwhelmed is a reallyunique kind of characteristic
because what it's actuallyimplying is that you were
(18:07):
unprepared to handle what youexperienced or what that input
was.
Not unprepared in the sense thatyou don't know what you're
doing.
Unprepared is in you didn't knowthat would have an impact on you
until you heard it.
And now you're not sure what todo with it.
And so this is again where thatkind of self-awareness of why am
I overwhelmed?
Because I didn't expect that.
That was something unexpected tome.
(18:28):
That was an external kind ofinput that I wasn't necessarily
expecting.
So if that's the case, you'reoverwhelmed, okay, sit with it.
What's the next biggest emotionthat you feel?
Well, it was horrible.
I feel sad or I feel anxiousabout it.
And instead of phrasing it inthat negative context, you can
say, I'm transitioning withthis.
(18:48):
I'm working with this and I'mtrying to work through it in my
own mind and understand it in adifferent light.
And when you shift from anxiousto anticipation or sad to
transition, or from frustrationto I need clarity, when you have
that kind of positive shift fromthis negative emotion you felt
(19:09):
to this is what it couldactually be, this positive kind
of other side of it, then you'reless likely to have it resonate
with you in a negative way.
And then it sinks and it settleson your head.
And suddenly you're feeling downor you're feeling low and you
can't understand why you can'tget out of this funk.
And a lot of it just comes fromwhat we think of a situation or
(19:32):
what we think of what peopletell us.
If it's negative, you're puttingin negative information into
your brain, and you can onlyexpect that the reaction you
have to it will also benegative.
So it's in that situation.
These are the realities.
Sure.
I'm sure people would say that.
Like these are the realities ofthe job, deal with it.
(19:52):
But are you actually dealingwith it?
Are you working through it?
Are you sitting there andthinking about how it made you
feel, why it made you feel thatway?
What you what can you learn fromit?
What can you take away from thatexperience that can help better
prepare you for a similarexperience moving forward or
something else in the future?
And then walking away from itwith I learned something about
myself, or I learned somethingabout this job, or I learned
(20:16):
something about my friend.
Those are all positive takeawaysfrom a potentially really
negative experience.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
So back when I was an ER doc, I tried to keep
everything simple because youhave to know a little bit about
everything.
Yeah.
So what I'm hearing is step oneis to work on emotional
awareness.
Yes.
Yep.
Does that sound right?
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
Yes.
Yep.
Think about what you're feeling.
What are you feeling?
What are you feeling?
Why are you feeling it?
And if you can identify thosetwo things, you're halfway there
because you're bringingawareness to your own mind and
your own thought processes andhow your thought processes
connect to your emotions and howas a result, your emotions can
(20:59):
connect to your behaviors.
So just bringing awareness tothose two things can help you
mitigate that pathway fromnegative emotions straight to
impulsive or negative behavior.
And instead, you're identifyingsomething negative potentially,
but here's the flip side of it.
And here's how it couldpotentially be better or
beneficial or helpful.
(21:20):
So it's forcing yourself to flipthe script or change the
narrative and understand it froma different perspective so that
you're not just absorbingnegativity constantly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
And are you going through scenarios with people in
your sessions only?
Or is it like self-guided work,like journaling?
I'm assuming it's a probably acombination of both.
What does the work actually looklike?
SPEAKER_02 (21:43):
Yeah, it's definitely a combination of
both.
I love to sit with people foranywhere from one to four hours
a month.
So it's usually one hoursessions, and just talk to them.
And a lot of it's just, I wantto just hear from them.
What's the worst thing you'veever experienced?
What's the best thing you'veever experienced?
What's something that changedyour life entirely?
What's something you wish youwould have done or something you
(22:05):
regret?
And just getting to understandwhat motivates them and what
influences their decisions andwhat gets them excited to get
out of bed in the morning andwhat just drives them absolutely
crazy.
Because if you just get to knowsomebody, it becomes a lot
easier to help them draw theirown path through resilience
training.
And so from there, it'sjournaling exercises, it's
(22:27):
mindfulness exercises, composureexercises.
And sometimes it's even assimple as what intrinsically
motivates you.
What's your why?
What makes you want to get outof bed in the morning?
Because if you're in thecompletely wrong field and
you're only doing it because youneed the paycheck, or you're
only doing it because, you know,your dad told you you had to, or
whatever the case may be, thenyou're never going to feel
(22:52):
really fulfilled or reallypositive about your experiences
in that stage of your life.
And so sometimes it's literallyas simple as what's your
passion, what's your purpose?
Do you know your why?
What's your vision?
What is it that you want to dowith your life?
Because a lot of people haven'treally thought that far ahead.
They're just, this is the job,this is what I've got, this is
what I've been doing, and this,I'm content here.
(23:14):
But they don't understand howthat can be so impactful on
their mind in the long run.
They just settle, they getcomplacent.
So it can be anywhere fromwhat's your why to what's your
composure, to how do you reasonwith something?
What's your health?
Because that's a big part of itthat we don't talk about.
And that's the foundationalelement of are you hydrating?
Are you exercising?
(23:35):
And are you keeping up withsocial relationships?
Are you not isolating yourselftoo much?
Or so it's just like getting avibe for where they are in their
life and these various differentdomains and how they handle it,
and then the little exercisesthat you can give them to help
in each of those domains.
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
ER doc oversimplification again.
It's almost like you're goingwine tasting with their various
emotions and identities andtasting each one and seeing
which one tastes the worst andneeds the most work.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Yes.
Yeah.
That's a great way to say it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's it is, it's based onsix domains.
So the resilience domains arevision, your purpose, your why.
There's composure.
So how you handle stress and howyou react to situations.
There's reasoning.
So can you be resourceful andfigure out a solution to a
problem as it comes up?
(24:28):
There's health, which is againthe basics.
Are you hydrating?
Are you sleeping?
Are you eating a proper diet andare you working out?
That kind of thing.
There's tenacity, which isreally self-motivation, the
ability to keep yourself goingwithout any external kind of
motivators.
And there's collaboration, whichcollaboration is one of the most
understated parts of resilience,but you really do need to invest
(24:52):
in social relationships andinvest in the people in your
life who make up your socialnetwork, because at the end of
the day, those are the peopleyou can rely on and count on to
help you out of a bad place,whether that's mentally or
physically.
And so those are the sixdomains.
And so I will, I'll pick aquestion or two in each of those
domains and I'll get a vibe forthe person on each of those
(25:14):
domains.
I do have a survey instrument Ican give them that will actually
give me the results and thescores in all six of those
domains, and I can see exactlywhich one I need to work on with
them first.
But I like to figure it out,puzzle it together and see which
one maybe they would want towork on first.
And then from there, it's justthe little exercises I can give
them in each of those domains tohelp them improve in that
(25:36):
various part of their life.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
I am seeing all the domains I've been deficient in
for many years as aprofessional.
Yeah.
Yeah, my therapist always getson me of did you ask for help?
I'm like, ah, I forgot.
Okay.
So do you find that you get morework done when you work on
things that people are not goodat, or you help enhance the
things that they are alreadygood at?
(26:00):
Or I'm assuming it dependsperson to person, but generally,
which do you find works better?
SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
I'm a big advocate for small wins.
So if I can make them a littlebit better in a category that
they're already pretty good atand show them like, look how
good you did with that, right?
Like that little boost of, oh, Idid really good with that.
That's enough to keep themcoming back.
So if I can give them thatlittle serotonin boost of, hey,
this is what I feel and this iswhy I feel it.
(26:26):
And oh yeah, I did that formyself.
Then all of a sudden they'reseeing how these little things
can help in the long run.
And it's less of something Idid, and it's more, you're
already really good at that.
Look how good you did that.
You know?
And so I'm would rather work onthe things they're good at and
point out those positiveattributes of theirs before I
dive into this.
(26:46):
This is what you suck at.
So let's work on that.
That's not nobody wants to hearthat.
And nobody really wants to likework with someone who's just
gonna point out the negativesall the time.
SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
Makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_01 (26:56):
So you give them education around identifying
their emotions, you have themsample out some different
emotional states and emotions,go for the easy wins.
How much does that help buildsomeone's emotional resilience?
Just those first three steps.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
A lot.
And I think the one thing thatin all three of just me sitting
with someone and doing that isit taps into the collaboration
domain.
And whether they recognize it ornot, them talking to me and
explaining what they're feelingand what they've experienced and
why they do what they do, thatreleases little positive
(27:35):
chemicals in their brain thatmake them feel better.
And so when you actually talkabout something, even if it's
something negative with anotherhuman being, not AI and not the
wall or not your phone oranything else, not texting, when
you're talking face to face witha human, it releases the
chemicals in your brain thatmake you happy.
And it's as simple as that.
(27:56):
And so when they leave the firstcall with me, they should feel
lightheaded in a positive way.
Oh, that wasn't what I thoughtit was gonna be, but I feel
okay.
And that was okay.
And that kind of moment is whatI lean on the most.
That's where I'm like, let'schat again.
Let's just talk.
It's not a session, it's not atherapy session.
I'm not gonna diagnose you, I'mnot gonna talk to you about what
(28:18):
you did wrong, what you couldhave done better.
I just want to talk to you.
I want to get to know you.
And you should leave feelingthat much better because you
just were able to say it exactlythe way you felt and exactly the
way it came across to you, tosomeone who's not judging you
for it and isn't gonna take awayanything from you because of it.
(28:38):
I'm just here to listen and tobe there and work through it
with you.
And I think that's one of themost important things that comes
away from just something assimple as that introductory
first meeting with them.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
So we talked about the first three steps, and
obviously there's so much moreto this, but again, ER doc brain
keeps it simple.
Those first three steps we talkabout.
How many sessions is that to getthat sort of work done?
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Probably three to four, I would say, to really get
to the nitty-gritty, because thefirst one is always a little
uncomfortable.
They don't really know what toexpect.
And maybe I'll ask a question,they'll give me a very dry or
generic answer, but they're notreally giving me any detail.
And so it takes a couple ofsessions just to get them
comfortable to talk and toreally recognize that I'm not
here to take that informationand retaliate or do anything
(29:26):
with it, really.
I'm just here for them if theywant to talk.
And once they open up to that,then it becomes a lot easier to
be, okay, this is the domain I'mseeing, or this is the word I'm
hearing, or this is great whatyou did in that situation.
I think that's awesome.
And those are the little sparksthat I could throw in as they
start to open up and talk to me.
So it can take three to foursessions, depending on the
(29:48):
person.
Some people come to me andthey're like, listen, this is
everything that I've beendealing with, and I need you to
tell me where to start.
And that's great too.
Okay, let's jump in.
But just depends on the person.
SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
So I got some physician coaching a few years
ago.
I was a new chief of staff at myhospital, and we got an
educational stipend to learn andtake classes, and so I signed up
for some physician coaching.
And I didn't know I had PTSD atthe time.
And I'll get to my question, butlet me just give it the
scenario.
Yeah.
So I was a new chief of staff.
I want to advocate for my fellowdoctors.
(30:21):
I want to work on burnout.
And so I started working with mycoach, and he was asking me all
this stuff, and he gave me somethings.
And the one thing he reallywanted me to work on is when
people stop and say thank you,to actually stop and listen and
attend to it and feel thegratitude.
And I was so bitter still atthat time in emergency medicine,
(30:44):
I couldn't do it.
I could not stop and enjoy thethank you.
And so, my question to you isthat was 10 years into being a
doctor with yet undiagnosedPTSD.
Once someone already goes down anegative path with worsening
emotional resilience, burnout,even post-traumatic stress
disorder, how much can you pullthem back?
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
As much as they are willing to work for it, you can
go all the way back to squareone.
You can get that much better.
But at first, I really stand byjust transparency.
So this is the reality.
This is where you are.
Let's figure out how you gothere and let's work our way back
(31:27):
from there.
So, in that case, where youcouldn't accept the thank you,
you couldn't look somebody inthe face and really feel that.
You just brush it off and keepgoing with your day.
Why?
Why were you doing that?
Do you remember a specificinstance where that started
happening for you?
Do you remember the first timesomeone said thank you and you
could tell that it wasn'tsincere?
(31:48):
Do you remember what that was?
And why did that resonate withyou more than someone's genuine
appreciation for what you did?
And just trickling back throughwhere did it all crumble and
getting to the root of thatsituation can sometimes make it
easier to then moving forward.
Thank you.
Of course, thank you for sayingthat and thank you for your
(32:10):
support.
And suddenly it can be a littlebit more intensive.
And starting with one scenarioat a time, one emotion at a
time.
It's not tackle the person andget to the root of all of their
problems.
That's a great example.
You have a hard time with peoplesaying thank you and taking it
sincerely.
Why?
Let's figure out why.
Let's backtrack through ourlives and figure out all the
(32:32):
scenarios where somebody mayhave said that to you.
And somewhere along the way, Ibet you there was a situation
where you felt that was themfeeling obligated to say it, but
you knew they didn't mean it, oryou felt, I didn't deserve it.
I didn't deserve that.
And so where did that happen?
And how can we rework throughthat scenario retroactively and
(32:55):
reframe it and change thenarrative and shift the
perspective so that you canexperience it in a new light and
walk away from it differently?
So it's a little bit more ifwe're talking kind of
retroactive resilience training,it's reliving it to some degree,
but in an effort to understandit rather than that's what
(33:18):
happened and that's the end ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
So in other words, it's the same process, emotional
awareness, sampling thedifferent emotions and trying to
focus on the easy wins, but it'salmost like your your approach
is different or like you'rezooming in or zooming out as it
pertains to the particular thingthat's troublesome.
How interesting.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
Yeah.
I like to tell people, I wantyou to revisit what that
experience was, but from abird's eye view or from a fly on
the wall.
See it from someone who iswatching from a third-party
perspective and not from whereyou were and who you were
facing, but from a side angle.
Because what they'll notice arelittle things like that person
(34:00):
was really frustrated and wasn'tin the right state of mind to
really be talking to me likethat or saying anything to me,
or vice versa.
I was really frustrated, I had along day, I wasn't in the right
mind or mental state to reallybe responsive to that.
And if you have that objective,wait a second, this was not
personal, this was notintentional.
(34:21):
There were other externalinfluencers at the time that
were feeding into that scenario.
Suddenly it takes the Otis offof the impact it had on you.
And it's okay, I understand thatthat was impactful to me, but
there's plenty of other thingsthat were influencing that
situation.
And it wasn't just me or itwasn't just directed at me.
(34:42):
And so looking at it from thethird-party perspective, that's
one of the best ways to getpeople to understand more of
what they were experiencing atthe time.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
So it's almost like the work of helping someone who
has struggled with emotionalresilience, trying to bring them
back is similar to work that youdo for someone who is new in
their career, you've gotten theeasy wins, and now you're
tackling the harder stuff.
Does that sound right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think that it changes awhole lot.
And that's the beauty of it isthat when it comes to resilience
training and emotionalresilience coaching, you can
start at any point.
You can start when you're superburnt out and already have
experienced the worst of theworst, or you can start when
you're brand new to a field orbrand new to a job and you're
(35:31):
just trying to get your feetwet, right?
Those are completely differentparts or positions in life, but
both of those people can gain alot from it and can grow a lot
from it.
And it doesn't have to be, oh,you're young and you haven't
really experienced anything yet.
So what do you need to worryabout?
Or, man, you're too far gone.
There's nothing I can do foryou.
(35:51):
There's no one part of thespectrum that is the best for
emotional resilience coachingand training.
It's anybody in any stage oftheir life can learn and grow
from it and be better because ofit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
Have you read the book, The Upside of Stress?
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
I have not.
I've heard a lot of good thingsabout it, though.
People keep recommending it tome.
SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
It sounds a lot like what you do, which is to
basically stop, be aware of whatyou're feeling, recognize that
there can be positivity in whatyou do, even if it's hard.
SPEAKER_02 (36:20):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
And getting people to learn thatnot even learn it, but just
recognize it on a regular basisis really tricky.
It's really tricky.
SPEAKER_00 (36:31):
How about the book Grit?
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
Grit is a great book.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Love that book.
Angela Duckworth, yes.
Great read and very interesting.
Have you taken your grit score?
I have not.
Did you know there was a gritscore?
I didn't.
Yeah.
So apparently you can actuallygo online and take your grit
score and you can get a sense ofhow gritty you are.
In other words, how much I lookat it, how much emotional
resilience are you born with?
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
That's pretty cool.
Have you done it?
SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
Yeah, I was highly resilient.
SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
Look at that.
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Shockered.
That's how I survived med schooland residency with a two-hour
commute and a child and aninfant and a long distance
relationship.
And somehow seemed to come outokay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
So resilient.
So resilient.
I love it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Yeah.
One thing I wanted to ask you iswhen I began to work with my
therapist, we talked about thefact that not everyone who is in
a job like mine developspost-traumatic stress disorder.
Can you talk about someone'semotional predisposition to
develop post-traumatic stressdisorder or not develop
post-traumatic stress disorder?
SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I get asked this quite a bit.
One of the workshops that I wasdoing, someone had asked how
ACEs or adverse childhoodexperiences play into PTSD and
other negative mental healthproblems in the future.
And when it comes topredisposition, anybody can
(38:00):
experience something likepost-traumatic stress disorder,
regardless of what yourchildhood was like, regardless
of how nurturing your mother wasor wasn't, or if your father was
in the picture, or we like topinpoint these different parts
of people's lives and attributewhy they were less resilient in
life to something that happened.
(38:22):
But in reality, there's peoplewho experience adverse childhood
experiences and are some of themost resilient people you'll
meet.
And that's not reallyindicative.
And I think I have a hard timesaying that certain people are
more predisposed to adverseexperiences in life or negative
(38:44):
mental health effects or areless likely to be resilient
because depending on the person,they could experience all of
those negative things or have ahistory of mental health
deficits in the family and stillgrow to be very resilient
people.
And so I don't really buy toomuch into predisposition as a as
(39:07):
it stands.
But as far as the research, it'sthose kind of things.
It's what aces did youpotentially experience?
What was your family life like?
Have you ever been raped?
Have you been assaulted?
Have you been mugged?
Have you witnessed that oranything of the sort?
And a lot of the time, peoplewho are severely traumatized and
(39:31):
have an issue with resilienceare people who maybe it didn't
happen directly to them, butthey witnessed it or they were
privy to it at some point in ayoung developmental stage.
And as a result, they didn'tknow how to handle it then.
They were never taught how tohandle it later.
And so they just close in onthemselves when something of
(39:51):
that nature happens to them inthe future, or when something
traumatic or scary happens tothem in the future.
And those people, it's more ofless predisposition.
And more of just, man, I wish Iwould have gotten to you sooner.
I wish I would have known yousooner.
I wish somebody would havegrabbed your hand and talked to
you sooner because again, you'renot broken.
You just nobody helped you ornobody told taught you.
(40:13):
Nobody talked to you.
Nobody took your hand and walkedyou through it when it happened.
And now you're feeling like it'swho you are fundamentally for
the rest of your life.
And that's the scariest part isthat people just get left behind
and then they are deemed lessresilient.
And really it's, I just wasnever, I was never told.
I was never taught.
I was never trained.
(40:33):
So I'm dealing with it the onlyway my body knows how, which is
usually negatively.
SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
You and I both love CrossFit.
So I want to throw my anathletic idea at you and see
what you think and then bring itback to your work.
So I have always wondered why dowe not teach people how to run?
So you look, and some people runnaturally beautifully, and
others it just looks like ithurts.
So bringing that back, we don'tteach kids how to run.
(41:01):
We don't teach kids how to beemotionally resilient.
We should.
At what age do you think thatshould probably start?
SPEAKER_02 (41:10):
So in my research, I talk about how people's lives
are shaped and theirgenerational narratives are
shaped in key developmentalperiods of life.
And those key developmentalperiods are usually somewhere
between 13 years old, probablyto about 18 years old.
So from 13 to 18 is wherereally, if you experience
(41:34):
something horrific or ifsomething traumatic happens,
it's more likely to have along-lasting impact on you.
This is how generationalnarratives are created.
This is why when you look atgenerations and what
differentiates us from eachother, a lot of it is what was
the key or the criticalmonumental incident that
happened when we were in our keydevelopmental stages.
(41:56):
So for Gen X, a lot of it wasfocused around 9-11.
For millennials, a lot of it'sfocused around COVID.
So it's these criticaldevelopmental occurrences that
happen when we're young, but ourbrain is still processing and
absorbing in a really intensiveway.
So I would give anything to sitdown with high school seniors
(42:21):
and teach them this stuff.
Because I think not only are wenot being taught the basics of
living, like balancing acheckbook or credits, but then
we're also not being taught howto be social and how to be human
in a world that's really relyingheavily on technology now.
And so if we could get to thesepopulations, high school seniors
(42:43):
or even younger anywhere in highschool from freshman to senior
year, and just teach them thesetraits and these skill sets, I
think you see very drasticallydifferent outcomes in the long
run as far as how they canmanage their stress, how they
manage their relationships andwhat they take away from what
they want to do with life andwhat they take away from what
(43:04):
they're learning in school and alot more.
Emotional resilience for all.
Yes, definitely.
Definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (43:14):
Regrettably, we have reached the end of the time we
set aside.
Did we miss anything about thework that you do?
SPEAKER_02 (43:20):
I don't think so.
Yeah, I know.
That's in a nutshell what I do.
And it's it changes all thetime.
I am constantly learning.
Learning just never stops.
So it's a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (43:31):
Yeah, if it's okay with you, I think I'll provide
your information about yourpractice to my former ER group.
Just that if anyone wants towork on developing and growing
emotional resilience, I wish Ihad known about this sort of
work 10 years ago.
I'd be a very different doctornow.
SPEAKER_02 (43:45):
Yeah, I would absolutely love to work with
anybody who'd be willing to sitdown with me for even just for a
few sessions and talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
All right.
Coach K, I'm super impressed.
I did not know what you did whenwe came into this.
I know we've done CrossFittogether, but I love the work
that you do, building emotionalresilience.
SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
And I love the work you do.
We're just out here having animpact on people.
It's great.
SPEAKER_01 (44:12):
One last question as we go to wrap up.
How do you incorporate exerciseinto someone's emotional
resilience?
SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
I think it's so critical.
I try to encourage people to getinto some sort of exercise
routine.
And it doesn't have to beCrossFit.
I try to very be very clear.
Go do a sport, go playvolleyball, go golfing, go play
basketball with your friends,anything, any sport you want to
do, just go be active becausegetting out and being active, it
(44:40):
does so much for your bodyphysically and and your mind as
well.
So it's just, it's an incredibletool and having fun is the cost
of it.
And so that's, I think that'ssomething that people sh really
need to incorporate in on theirday-to-day.
SPEAKER_01 (44:54):
All right.
I think we will probably need tocome back and dig into this a
little bit deeper because wetalked about the
high-functioning person that youdo emotional resilience work
with.
I'd love to come back and talkabout when somebody is not as
well resourced and what it'slike really helping someone to
really level up when they don'thave a lot of resilience at
baseline.
Yeah, definitely.
All right.
(45:14):
On that, I thank you for yourtime and I really appreciate
coming on and teaching me.
SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
Yeah, of course.
I look forward to chatting withyou again soon.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
Before we wrap up, a huge thank you to the Montage
Health Foundation for backing mymission to create fun, engaging
education on addiction.
And a shout out to the nonprofitCentral Coast Overdose
Prevention for teaming up withme on this podcast.
Our partnership helps me get theword out about how to treat
addiction and prevent overdoses.
(45:46):
To those healthcare providersout there treating patients with
addiction, you're doinglife-saving work and thank you
for what you do.
For everyone else tuning in,thank you for taking the time to
learn about addiction.
It's a fight we cannot winwithout awareness and action.
There's still so much we can doto improve how addiction is
treated.
Together, we can make it happen.
(46:07):
Thanks for listening.
And remember, treating addictionsaves lives.
Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy
podcast.
Hey there, I'm Dr.
Casey Grover, an addictionmedicine doctor based on
(00:20):
California's Central Coast.
For 14 years, I worked in theemergency department, seeing
countless patients strugglingwith addiction.
Now, I'm on the other side ofthe fight, helping people
rebuild their lives when drugsand alcohol take control.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get started.
Today we are going to be talkingabout how to build emotional
(00:43):
resilience.
Now, what's the backstory behindthis episode?
Well, this is an interview withCoach Kay.
I do CrossFit with her and Iasked her after a workout what
her day job was, and she saidthat she had a PhD and worked on
building emotional resilience.
And so, of course, I wasinterested as building emotional
(01:04):
resilience is a lot of what wetry to do when we treat
addiction.
If you think about it, addictionat its core is using substances
to change how we feel, and oftenthat is managing negative
emotions.
People with addiction oftendon't have much emotional
resilience, and that's why theyuse substances to self-regulate.
(01:25):
So when I heard that she helpsbuild emotional resilience, the
first thought that came to mymind was, oh my gosh, I need
that for my patients.
Coach Kay specializes in helpingprofessionals manage the
negative emotions that come withhigh stress work.
People in these professions havesome emotional resilience, but
need to build more to be able toavoid burnout and quitting their
(01:48):
jobs.
So her work is not as much withpeople with addiction, but the
approach that she takes is stillapplicable to people with
addiction.
A few points that I wanted toclarify that came up during our
conversation.
Coach Kay mentioned two parts ofthe brain, and I just wanted to
clarify what they are.
First, the limbic brain.
(02:08):
The limbic brain is a primitivepart of the brain that is
involved with processing andregulating emotion and memory.
It is also home to the behaviorsthat keep us alive: eating,
motivating us to reproduce, andour fight or flight response.
And second, the prefrontalcortex.
The prefrontal cortex is themost highly evolved part of our
(02:30):
brain and is the home of ourexecutive functioning.
It does things like thinkingthrough decisions, setting
goals, and self-control.
So for the sake of ourconversation, you can think of
the limbic brain as ourprimitive survival brain and the
prefrontal cortex as the home ofself-regulation, problem
solving, and complex decisionmaking.
This was a really enlighteningepisode for me, and we are
(02:53):
hoping to come back and doanother episode in the future
focused more on how to helppeople who, for whatever reason,
maybe including addiction, haveless emotional resilience and
really need to build it from theground up.
And with that, here we go.
All right.
I am so excited to have you onmy podcast.
(03:14):
Why don't we start by having youtell us who you are and what you
do?
Yeah.
So my name is Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
Kaelin Switzer, and I am the founder of Cyrus, which
is a holistic health andwellness coaching model designed
to practice proactive mentalhealth with people in high
stress environments,specifically first responders,
law enforcement, nurses, ERpersonnel, those kind of
(03:40):
occupations.
My goal is really to give themthe tools to mitigate their
stress so that they're able tohandle traumatic experiences
when they happen, if theyhappen, rather than needing to
seek help after they'veexperienced something horrible
or traumatic.
So really just giving them thetools up front to be able to
mitigate their own stress andprevent burnout and other
(04:04):
long-term issues.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
Man, I needed you 10 years ago.
I have PTSD from the emergencydepartment.
That was my first job.
Can I refer colleagues to you?
SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Yeah, of course.
And I hear that unfortunately alot.
And that was one of the reasonsI decided to go into this field
because a lot of specificallywhen it comes to first
responders like law enforcementand ER personnel, a lot of times
it's wait for something tohappen and then we'll send you
to the doctor, we'll send you tothe therapist and they'll work
with you through what youexperience so that you don't
(04:35):
burn out.
But in reality, it's once you'veexperienced something super
traumatic, if you weren'tprepared to handle that stress
on your mind, there isn't awhole lot more you can do after
the fact to prevent you fromburning out because at that
point you're you just weren'tprepared for it and it was just
an overload on your mind.
So I think my approach wasreally one of the first
(04:57):
proactive approaches to tryingto get ahead of those impacts on
these occupations.
SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
Yeah, we talked about building emotional
resilience.
Now I know what you meant.
Yeah, for sure.
Wow.
Yeah.
I just we just had anotherdoctor start in my practice who,
like me, is emergency medicineand addiction medicine.
And the first thing I told herwas, please take care of your
mental health.
I had no idea I would get PTSDfrom the emergency department.
SPEAKER_02 (05:25):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's horrible.
It's horrible.
And it's we need people in thoseoccupations, right?
Those are important fields.
And we need these people toremain strong and we need them
to be able to do their jobs, andwe don't want them burning out.
So it blew my mind when I wasdoing the research that there
was really not a whole lot ofthese proactive approaches to
this.
Why are we not implementingresilience training and
(05:48):
emotional labeling therapy upfront so that people can handle
this kind of occupational stressover the long run?
Why don't we?
I think a lot of it comes downto the science is still pretty
new as far as what the impactsof resilience training can be,
like the positive impacts canbe.
(06:09):
There was a lot of science beingdone on burnout specifically,
but of course it's all lookingat everything retroactively.
So until all of that researchwas published, we didn't really
know what the solutions or whatthe positive impacts of
preventative maintenance orpreventative mental health were.
(06:30):
So it took a lot of time justfor the research to be published
and conducted to understand whatburnout really is and what the
main causes of it are and thevarious ways that we can prevent
it and get ahead of it.
And I think now that we'restarting to understand that, and
there's more and more researchcoming out to show that
proactive approaches toresilience training can help
(06:52):
prevent burnout and preventturnover intentions.
Now we're starting to consider,okay, how do we implement this
on the front end?
So it's still pretty new, Iwould say.
It's not something that a wholelot of people were practicing
because there wasn't a whole lotof support for it, empirical or
otherwise.
But now that it's becoming moreregular and more well known that
(07:15):
it's a helpful tool, it's slowlystarting to become implemented
in these fields.
SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
So before we talk about what you do, I have one
more question about who you workwith.
Shouldn't every human being onplanet Earth be doing this in
some way?
We all need emotionalresilience.
SPEAKER_02 (07:32):
Yes, absolutely.
And I work with everybodypersonally.
I actually really enjoy workingwith people in just day-to-day
lives.
I love helping people reframetheir thought processes and
helping them understand thatwhat they went through wasn't
personal or it wasn't directedat them, but this is how they
can take what they learned fromit and do something positive
(07:52):
with it.
I love getting people tounderstand that it doesn't
really matter what occupation orwhat your day-to-day looks like.
Everybody does need this.
My focus has always been thosehigh stress occupations because
we are seeing unprecedentedlevels of burnout and turnover
in those fields.
And those fields are soincredibly important to our
(08:13):
population that I felt verydrawn to how can I help them.
And in the process, I learned,yes, this is highly beneficial
for everybody, not just them.
So it's been really great justto be able to practice it with
people from all walks of life.
But it's been amazing to reallylearn how it can be impactful on
higher stress situations andoccupations.
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
As we talk through this, I just keep thinking my
patients who have addictionstart with a baseline lower
level of emotional resiliencethan someone who's going to have
a successful career.
And addiction in and of itselfis stressful.
I feel like my patients need youeven more than first responder
who's got a college degree.
(08:54):
I'm just curious how thatresonates with you.
SPEAKER_02 (08:57):
I I really appreciate that you see the
importance of what I'm doing andhow it could help a lot of
different populations.
And I would love to work withanybody who would be willing to
sit and listen and work with meon this stuff.
One of the hardest kind ofscenarios I run into with police
(09:18):
officers and other people whohave these really crazy
occupations, let alone theaverage person, is that you have
to want to do it.
And I think one of the biggestproblems when it comes to
individuals who are sufferingfrom addiction or mental health
issues already, or if they havemental health disorders, then if
(09:38):
you're already suffering throughthat, I can't, I can't really
get through to you until we getto the root of that problem
first.
So I've always said thatoutpatient, absolutely.
I could work with somebody tohelp keep them on track and help
keep them accountable and helpthem build these tools moving
forward.
But I've also worked with peoplewho I wasn't the right fit for.
(10:00):
I really wasn't.
They needed a clinician.
They needed a therapist whocould help them work through
what they already wereexperiencing and what they had
already gone through before Iwas ever going to be effective.
And so I think a lot of it comesback to just knowing when I can
actually be impactful tosomebody and when it's not my
turn yet and not maybe not thetime for me to step in.
SPEAKER_01 (10:21):
So I know how I define emotional resilience in
my practice, but you're anexpert in this.
How do you define emotionalresilience?
SPEAKER_02 (10:28):
I would define emotional resilience as the
capacity to notice, understand,and regulate your internal
emotional landscape so that youcan really respond to stressors
effectively rather thanimpulsively.
(10:48):
So it's your ability tounderstand this is what I'm
feeling, this is why I'm feelingit.
And rather than reactingimpulsively based on that
feeling, I can reassess andregulate that emotion and react
in a more cognizant and calmmanner.
(11:09):
So that's how I would define it.
It's more of a skill set than itis something that you just have
or something that you're justborn with, or something that
it's something that everyone canlearn and everyone can develop.
And even if you already havesome of that skill, you can
always improve it.
It's just this ongoingself-awareness and internal
(11:29):
narrative.
SPEAKER_01 (11:31):
So you're trying to say that what I was taught in
medical school, which is toshove it down and move on to the
next patient, wasn't the rightanswer?
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Not necessarily.
I wouldn't think that's thebest.
It's actually interesting,though, because in my high
adversity resilience training,one of the things they do
encourage in high stressoccupations is
compartmentalization, which issomething that previously that
was frowned upon.
They're like, we don't want youto compartmentalize things.
(11:58):
That's shoving it down into abox and forgetting about it and
not dealing with it.
But in these high stressoccupations, it's actually
becoming more of a regulartraining to have police officers
or ER nurses compartmentalizewhat they're experiencing so
that they don't take it homewith them.
And it's their way of separatingwork from home life.
(12:20):
So what we were taught in thepast, yeah, of course, there's
not necessarily a whole lot ofvalidation to everything that we
were taught, but we are learningnew ways to approach it and
teach it and train peopleeffectively on it versus just
shove it down and don't thinkabout it anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
So for my addiction patients, they just get so
overwhelmed so easily, which islargely why they turn to
substances, right?
I feel overwhelmed by this.
I'm gonna pick a downer andthat's gonna calm me down and I
can function.
Where do you start with someoneon your first visit?
What's it like?
SPEAKER_02 (12:53):
A lot of the times I try to be very transparent and
educate someone.
I don't try to come at themlike, this is what you're doing,
this is why you're doing it,this is what you're
experiencing, and this is howyou fix it.
That's really not how toapproach anybody in any stage of
their training with emotionalresilience.
I try to be very clear andexplain the neuroscience behind
(13:14):
it and let them know this is thereality is that emotions drive
decision-making behaviors.
And so if you cannot regulateyour own emotions, you are
always going to look for anupper, a downer, or something
that can control that emotionfor you.
So if you're not teachingyourself how to mitigate that or
(13:36):
how to manage those emotions,you're gonna look for whatever
can, whether it's picking upthat pill or having that glass
of wine or whatever the case maybe, whatever that muse is to
settle that emotion, you'regonna seek that out rather than
deal with the problem, the rootcause of the problem.
So I try to be very transparentwith people and just the reality
(13:57):
is this is the way human brainswork.
This is limbic brain activation.
And the only way to counter itis to activate the prefrontal
cortex and to really seriouslysit with yourself and think
about what you're feeling andwhy you're feeling it before
making an impulsive decision onhow to manage what you're
feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
That is so unfortunate for my patients
because in addiction, theprefrontal cortex is
underfunctioning and the limbicbrain is overfunctioning.
Man.
So it sounds like first sessionis just, hey, I'm Dr.
K, or how do you introduceyourself?
SPEAKER_02 (14:32):
I actually go by Coach K.
I think it's a little bit moreapproachable.
And I like doing that.
I like getting people to knowthat, like, I'm a doctor, sure,
but I'm not your therapist.
I'm not gonna sit here and tellyou what's wrong with you.
I'm here to work with you and tohelp you see that you're not
broken, but you're you can getbetter at anything you want to.
And I'll explain how and if wecan work together on it.
(14:55):
And it's less of I'm telling youand more I'm cooperating with
you.
Like we're doing this together.
So I think Coach K is moreapproachable.
So yeah, I just go in, I'm CoachK, and I'd love to hear what
brought you to me and how youthink I can help.
And I'd love to give you somemore information on the
neuroscience behind resilienceand all of this emotional
(15:18):
regulation stuff that you hearabout, and we can go from there.
And something usually resonateswith them.
Usually one of those things thatwe discuss will stick with them
and then they'll want to divedeeper into that.
And that's my like hook.
What is it that draw like drewyou to me, drew you to
resilience training or coaching?
What do you want to get out ofit?
(15:39):
Because that's where we want tostart.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
Makes sense that you are focusing on first responders
that are very motivated.
Do you ever get folks that arebrought to you as a you have to
see Coach K, or else, likeyou've got addiction or you got
a DUI, or you're disassociatingat work and you can't function.
You need to get it together.
SPEAKER_02 (16:00):
I am lucky enough to say that I have not had that
yet.
I haven't had anyone forced tosee me.
I don't know how I would handlethat, to be honest.
I think for me, a big part of myphilosophy in working with
people is that I want them tosee their own value, their own
worth.
And with first responders who gothrough something and then they
(16:21):
end up having to go to theshrink to see if they're fit for
duty, right?
They're not gonna want to talkto that person in an honest and
open way and give them therealities or the truth of what
they experienced because thatcould be their job, right?
That could be their gun andbadge.
And so I think for me, if I'mworking with someone who is sent
to me, I can already expect thatthey're not gonna be fully open
with me.
They're not gonna be fullywilling to absorb what I have to
(16:45):
say or how we could worktogether.
And so I think I would have aharder time with that.
I think I genuinely want to workwith people who want to get
something out of it or who areat least curious.
Like if you're a little bitcurious, that's perfect.
That's all I need.
I can take you from there andI'll give you all the
information you need.
At some point, I'm suresomething will stick with you
and you'll want to do more orlearn more.
(17:06):
But if you're just there becauseyou have to be, if you don't, if
you're not interested in it,then you're not gonna get
anything out of it.
And I think there's a lot thatcan be said for pretty much
anything in life.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
Yeah.
So session one, it sounds like,is I'm Coach K.
Let's talk about why you'rehere, talk about what you want
to work on.
Let's say you're picking on me.
I'm little baby, Dr.
Grover.
I'm 29 years old.
I just finished residency.
And I say one of my buddies tookcare of a woman who had a
cardiac arrest while she waspregnant, and they did a
(17:36):
perimortem C-section.
I don't know how he dealt withthat.
I'm overwhelmed by being an ERdoc for the next 15 years.
Where do we go from here?
SPEAKER_02 (17:45):
So the first thing I would say is what is the number
one emotion you felt when youheard about that experience or
witnessed it or had that come toyour mind?
What was the first thing youfelt?
And the word I heard from youjust now was overwhelmed.
And so overwhelmed is a reallyunique kind of characteristic
because what it's actuallyimplying is that you were
(18:07):
unprepared to handle what youexperienced or what that input
was.
Not unprepared in the sense thatyou don't know what you're
doing.
Unprepared is in you didn't knowthat would have an impact on you
until you heard it.
And now you're not sure what todo with it.
And so this is again where thatkind of self-awareness of why am
I overwhelmed?
Because I didn't expect that.
That was something unexpected tome.
(18:28):
That was an external kind ofinput that I wasn't necessarily
expecting.
So if that's the case, you'reoverwhelmed, okay, sit with it.
What's the next biggest emotionthat you feel?
Well, it was horrible.
I feel sad or I feel anxiousabout it.
And instead of phrasing it inthat negative context, you can
say, I'm transitioning withthis.
(18:48):
I'm working with this and I'mtrying to work through it in my
own mind and understand it in adifferent light.
And when you shift from anxiousto anticipation or sad to
transition, or from frustrationto I need clarity, when you have
that kind of positive shift fromthis negative emotion you felt
(19:09):
to this is what it couldactually be, this positive kind
of other side of it, then you'reless likely to have it resonate
with you in a negative way.
And then it sinks and it settleson your head.
And suddenly you're feeling downor you're feeling low and you
can't understand why you can'tget out of this funk.
And a lot of it just comes fromwhat we think of a situation or
(19:32):
what we think of what peopletell us.
If it's negative, you're puttingin negative information into
your brain, and you can onlyexpect that the reaction you
have to it will also benegative.
So it's in that situation.
These are the realities.
Sure.
I'm sure people would say that.
Like these are the realities ofthe job, deal with it.
(19:52):
But are you actually dealingwith it?
Are you working through it?
Are you sitting there andthinking about how it made you
feel, why it made you feel thatway?
What you what can you learn fromit?
What can you take away from thatexperience that can help better
prepare you for a similarexperience moving forward or
something else in the future?
And then walking away from itwith I learned something about
myself, or I learned somethingabout this job, or I learned
(20:16):
something about my friend.
Those are all positive takeawaysfrom a potentially really
negative experience.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
So back when I was an ER doc, I tried to keep
everything simple because youhave to know a little bit about
everything.
Yeah.
So what I'm hearing is step oneis to work on emotional
awareness.
Yes.
Yep.
Does that sound right?
SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
Yes.
Yep.
Think about what you're feeling.
What are you feeling?
What are you feeling?
Why are you feeling it?
And if you can identify thosetwo things, you're halfway there
because you're bringingawareness to your own mind and
your own thought processes andhow your thought processes
connect to your emotions and howas a result, your emotions can
(20:59):
connect to your behaviors.
So just bringing awareness tothose two things can help you
mitigate that pathway fromnegative emotions straight to
impulsive or negative behavior.
And instead, you're identifyingsomething negative potentially,
but here's the flip side of it.
And here's how it couldpotentially be better or
beneficial or helpful.
(21:20):
So it's forcing yourself to flipthe script or change the
narrative and understand it froma different perspective so that
you're not just absorbingnegativity constantly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
And are you going through scenarios with people in
your sessions only?
Or is it like self-guided work,like journaling?
I'm assuming it's a probably acombination of both.
What does the work actually looklike?
SPEAKER_02 (21:43):
Yeah, it's definitely a combination of
both.
I love to sit with people foranywhere from one to four hours
a month.
So it's usually one hoursessions, and just talk to them.
And a lot of it's just, I wantto just hear from them.
What's the worst thing you'veever experienced?
What's the best thing you'veever experienced?
What's something that changedyour life entirely?
What's something you wish youwould have done or something you
(22:05):
regret?
And just getting to understandwhat motivates them and what
influences their decisions andwhat gets them excited to get
out of bed in the morning andwhat just drives them absolutely
crazy.
Because if you just get to knowsomebody, it becomes a lot
easier to help them draw theirown path through resilience
training.
And so from there, it'sjournaling exercises, it's
(22:27):
mindfulness exercises, composureexercises.
And sometimes it's even assimple as what intrinsically
motivates you.
What's your why?
What makes you want to get outof bed in the morning?
Because if you're in thecompletely wrong field and
you're only doing it because youneed the paycheck, or you're
only doing it because, you know,your dad told you you had to, or
whatever the case may be, thenyou're never going to feel
(22:52):
really fulfilled or reallypositive about your experiences
in that stage of your life.
And so sometimes it's literallyas simple as what's your
passion, what's your purpose?
Do you know your why?
What's your vision?
What is it that you want to dowith your life?
Because a lot of people haven'treally thought that far ahead.
They're just, this is the job,this is what I've got, this is
what I've been doing, and this,I'm content here.
(23:14):
But they don't understand howthat can be so impactful on
their mind in the long run.
They just settle, they getcomplacent.
So it can be anywhere fromwhat's your why to what's your
composure, to how do you reasonwith something?
What's your health?
Because that's a big part of itthat we don't talk about.
And that's the foundationalelement of are you hydrating?
Are you exercising?
(23:35):
And are you keeping up withsocial relationships?
Are you not isolating yourselftoo much?
Or so it's just like getting avibe for where they are in their
life and these various differentdomains and how they handle it,
and then the little exercisesthat you can give them to help
in each of those domains.
SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
ER doc oversimplification again.
It's almost like you're goingwine tasting with their various
emotions and identities andtasting each one and seeing
which one tastes the worst andneeds the most work.
SPEAKER_02 (24:07):
Yes.
Yeah.
That's a great way to say it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's it is, it's based onsix domains.
So the resilience domains arevision, your purpose, your why.
There's composure.
So how you handle stress and howyou react to situations.
There's reasoning.
So can you be resourceful andfigure out a solution to a
problem as it comes up?
(24:28):
There's health, which is againthe basics.
Are you hydrating?
Are you sleeping?
Are you eating a proper diet andare you working out?
That kind of thing.
There's tenacity, which isreally self-motivation, the
ability to keep yourself goingwithout any external kind of
motivators.
And there's collaboration, whichcollaboration is one of the most
understated parts of resilience,but you really do need to invest
(24:52):
in social relationships andinvest in the people in your
life who make up your socialnetwork, because at the end of
the day, those are the peopleyou can rely on and count on to
help you out of a bad place,whether that's mentally or
physically.
And so those are the sixdomains.
And so I will, I'll pick aquestion or two in each of those
domains and I'll get a vibe forthe person on each of those
(25:14):
domains.
I do have a survey instrument Ican give them that will actually
give me the results and thescores in all six of those
domains, and I can see exactlywhich one I need to work on with
them first.
But I like to figure it out,puzzle it together and see which
one maybe they would want towork on first.
And then from there, it's justthe little exercises I can give
them in each of those domains tohelp them improve in that
(25:36):
various part of their life.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
I am seeing all the domains I've been deficient in
for many years as aprofessional.
Yeah.
Yeah, my therapist always getson me of did you ask for help?
I'm like, ah, I forgot.
Okay.
So do you find that you get morework done when you work on
things that people are not goodat, or you help enhance the
things that they are alreadygood at?
(26:00):
Or I'm assuming it dependsperson to person, but generally,
which do you find works better?
SPEAKER_02 (26:05):
I'm a big advocate for small wins.
So if I can make them a littlebit better in a category that
they're already pretty good atand show them like, look how
good you did with that, right?
Like that little boost of, oh, Idid really good with that.
That's enough to keep themcoming back.
So if I can give them thatlittle serotonin boost of, hey,
this is what I feel and this iswhy I feel it.
(26:26):
And oh yeah, I did that formyself.
Then all of a sudden they'reseeing how these little things
can help in the long run.
And it's less of something Idid, and it's more, you're
already really good at that.
Look how good you did that.
You know?
And so I'm would rather work onthe things they're good at and
point out those positiveattributes of theirs before I
dive into this.
(26:46):
This is what you suck at.
So let's work on that.
That's not nobody wants to hearthat.
And nobody really wants to likework with someone who's just
gonna point out the negativesall the time.
SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
Makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_01 (26:56):
So you give them education around identifying
their emotions, you have themsample out some different
emotional states and emotions,go for the easy wins.
How much does that help buildsomeone's emotional resilience?
Just those first three steps.
SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
A lot.
And I think the one thing thatin all three of just me sitting
with someone and doing that isit taps into the collaboration
domain.
And whether they recognize it ornot, them talking to me and
explaining what they're feelingand what they've experienced and
why they do what they do, thatreleases little positive
(27:35):
chemicals in their brain thatmake them feel better.
And so when you actually talkabout something, even if it's
something negative with anotherhuman being, not AI and not the
wall or not your phone oranything else, not texting, when
you're talking face to face witha human, it releases the
chemicals in your brain thatmake you happy.
And it's as simple as that.
(27:56):
And so when they leave the firstcall with me, they should feel
lightheaded in a positive way.
Oh, that wasn't what I thoughtit was gonna be, but I feel
okay.
And that was okay.
And that kind of moment is whatI lean on the most.
That's where I'm like, let'schat again.
Let's just talk.
It's not a session, it's not atherapy session.
I'm not gonna diagnose you, I'mnot gonna talk to you about what
(28:18):
you did wrong, what you couldhave done better.
I just want to talk to you.
I want to get to know you.
And you should leave feelingthat much better because you
just were able to say it exactlythe way you felt and exactly the
way it came across to you, tosomeone who's not judging you
for it and isn't gonna take awayanything from you because of it.
(28:38):
I'm just here to listen and tobe there and work through it
with you.
And I think that's one of themost important things that comes
away from just something assimple as that introductory
first meeting with them.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
So we talked about the first three steps, and
obviously there's so much moreto this, but again, ER doc brain
keeps it simple.
Those first three steps we talkabout.
How many sessions is that to getthat sort of work done?
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Probably three to four, I would say, to really get
to the nitty-gritty, because thefirst one is always a little
uncomfortable.
They don't really know what toexpect.
And maybe I'll ask a question,they'll give me a very dry or
generic answer, but they're notreally giving me any detail.
And so it takes a couple ofsessions just to get them
comfortable to talk and toreally recognize that I'm not
here to take that informationand retaliate or do anything
(29:26):
with it, really.
I'm just here for them if theywant to talk.
And once they open up to that,then it becomes a lot easier to
be, okay, this is the domain I'mseeing, or this is the word I'm
hearing, or this is great whatyou did in that situation.
I think that's awesome.
And those are the little sparksthat I could throw in as they
start to open up and talk to me.
So it can take three to foursessions, depending on the
(29:48):
person.
Some people come to me andthey're like, listen, this is
everything that I've beendealing with, and I need you to
tell me where to start.
And that's great too.
Okay, let's jump in.
But just depends on the person.
SPEAKER_01 (29:59):
So I got some physician coaching a few years
ago.
I was a new chief of staff at myhospital, and we got an
educational stipend to learn andtake classes, and so I signed up
for some physician coaching.
And I didn't know I had PTSD atthe time.
And I'll get to my question, butlet me just give it the
scenario.
Yeah.
So I was a new chief of staff.
I want to advocate for my fellowdoctors.
(30:21):
I want to work on burnout.
And so I started working with mycoach, and he was asking me all
this stuff, and he gave me somethings.
And the one thing he reallywanted me to work on is when
people stop and say thank you,to actually stop and listen and
attend to it and feel thegratitude.
And I was so bitter still atthat time in emergency medicine,
(30:44):
I couldn't do it.
I could not stop and enjoy thethank you.
And so, my question to you isthat was 10 years into being a
doctor with yet undiagnosedPTSD.
Once someone already goes down anegative path with worsening
emotional resilience, burnout,even post-traumatic stress
disorder, how much can you pullthem back?
SPEAKER_02 (31:07):
As much as they are willing to work for it, you can
go all the way back to squareone.
You can get that much better.
But at first, I really stand byjust transparency.
So this is the reality.
This is where you are.
Let's figure out how you gothere and let's work our way back
(31:27):
from there.
So, in that case, where youcouldn't accept the thank you,
you couldn't look somebody inthe face and really feel that.
You just brush it off and keepgoing with your day.
Why?
Why were you doing that?
Do you remember a specificinstance where that started
happening for you?
Do you remember the first timesomeone said thank you and you
could tell that it wasn'tsincere?
(31:48):
Do you remember what that was?
And why did that resonate withyou more than someone's genuine
appreciation for what you did?
And just trickling back throughwhere did it all crumble and
getting to the root of thatsituation can sometimes make it
easier to then moving forward.
Thank you.
Of course, thank you for sayingthat and thank you for your
(32:10):
support.
And suddenly it can be a littlebit more intensive.
And starting with one scenarioat a time, one emotion at a
time.
It's not tackle the person andget to the root of all of their
problems.
That's a great example.
You have a hard time with peoplesaying thank you and taking it
sincerely.
Why?
Let's figure out why.
Let's backtrack through ourlives and figure out all the
(32:32):
scenarios where somebody mayhave said that to you.
And somewhere along the way, Ibet you there was a situation
where you felt that was themfeeling obligated to say it, but
you knew they didn't mean it, oryou felt, I didn't deserve it.
I didn't deserve that.
And so where did that happen?
And how can we rework throughthat scenario retroactively and
(32:55):
reframe it and change thenarrative and shift the
perspective so that you canexperience it in a new light and
walk away from it differently?
So it's a little bit more ifwe're talking kind of
retroactive resilience training,it's reliving it to some degree,
but in an effort to understandit rather than that's what
(33:18):
happened and that's the end ofit.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
So in other words, it's the same process, emotional
awareness, sampling thedifferent emotions and trying to
focus on the easy wins, but it'salmost like your your approach
is different or like you'rezooming in or zooming out as it
pertains to the particular thingthat's troublesome.
How interesting.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
Yeah.
I like to tell people, I wantyou to revisit what that
experience was, but from abird's eye view or from a fly on
the wall.
See it from someone who iswatching from a third-party
perspective and not from whereyou were and who you were
facing, but from a side angle.
Because what they'll notice arelittle things like that person
(34:00):
was really frustrated and wasn'tin the right state of mind to
really be talking to me likethat or saying anything to me,
or vice versa.
I was really frustrated, I had along day, I wasn't in the right
mind or mental state to reallybe responsive to that.
And if you have that objective,wait a second, this was not
personal, this was notintentional.
(34:21):
There were other externalinfluencers at the time that
were feeding into that scenario.
Suddenly it takes the Otis offof the impact it had on you.
And it's okay, I understand thatthat was impactful to me, but
there's plenty of other thingsthat were influencing that
situation.
And it wasn't just me or itwasn't just directed at me.
(34:42):
And so looking at it from thethird-party perspective, that's
one of the best ways to getpeople to understand more of
what they were experiencing atthe time.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
So it's almost like the work of helping someone who
has struggled with emotionalresilience, trying to bring them
back is similar to work that youdo for someone who is new in
their career, you've gotten theeasy wins, and now you're
tackling the harder stuff.
Does that sound right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think that it changes awhole lot.
And that's the beauty of it isthat when it comes to resilience
training and emotionalresilience coaching, you can
start at any point.
You can start when you're superburnt out and already have
experienced the worst of theworst, or you can start when
you're brand new to a field orbrand new to a job and you're
(35:31):
just trying to get your feetwet, right?
Those are completely differentparts or positions in life, but
both of those people can gain alot from it and can grow a lot
from it.
And it doesn't have to be, oh,you're young and you haven't
really experienced anything yet.
So what do you need to worryabout?
Or, man, you're too far gone.
There's nothing I can do foryou.
(35:51):
There's no one part of thespectrum that is the best for
emotional resilience coachingand training.
It's anybody in any stage oftheir life can learn and grow
from it and be better because ofit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
Have you read the book, The Upside of Stress?
SPEAKER_02 (36:07):
I have not.
I've heard a lot of good thingsabout it, though.
People keep recommending it tome.
SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
It sounds a lot like what you do, which is to
basically stop, be aware of whatyou're feeling, recognize that
there can be positivity in whatyou do, even if it's hard.
SPEAKER_02 (36:20):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
And getting people to learn thatnot even learn it, but just
recognize it on a regular basisis really tricky.
It's really tricky.
SPEAKER_00 (36:31):
How about the book Grit?
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
Grit is a great book.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:35):
Love that book.
Angela Duckworth, yes.
Great read and very interesting.
Have you taken your grit score?
I have not.
Did you know there was a gritscore?
I didn't.
Yeah.
So apparently you can actuallygo online and take your grit
score and you can get a sense ofhow gritty you are.
In other words, how much I lookat it, how much emotional
resilience are you born with?
SPEAKER_02 (36:56):
That's pretty cool.
Have you done it?
SPEAKER_01 (36:58):
Yeah, I was highly resilient.
SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
Look at that.
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Shockered.
That's how I survived med schooland residency with a two-hour
commute and a child and aninfant and a long distance
relationship.
And somehow seemed to come outokay.
SPEAKER_02 (37:14):
So resilient.
So resilient.
I love it.
SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Yeah.
One thing I wanted to ask you iswhen I began to work with my
therapist, we talked about thefact that not everyone who is in
a job like mine developspost-traumatic stress disorder.
Can you talk about someone'semotional predisposition to
develop post-traumatic stressdisorder or not develop
post-traumatic stress disorder?
SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I get asked this quite a bit.
One of the workshops that I wasdoing, someone had asked how
ACEs or adverse childhoodexperiences play into PTSD and
other negative mental healthproblems in the future.
And when it comes topredisposition, anybody can
(38:00):
experience something likepost-traumatic stress disorder,
regardless of what yourchildhood was like, regardless
of how nurturing your mother wasor wasn't, or if your father was
in the picture, or we like topinpoint these different parts
of people's lives and attributewhy they were less resilient in
life to something that happened.
(38:22):
But in reality, there's peoplewho experience adverse childhood
experiences and are some of themost resilient people you'll
meet.
And that's not reallyindicative.
And I think I have a hard timesaying that certain people are
more predisposed to adverseexperiences in life or negative
(38:44):
mental health effects or areless likely to be resilient
because depending on the person,they could experience all of
those negative things or have ahistory of mental health
deficits in the family and stillgrow to be very resilient
people.
And so I don't really buy toomuch into predisposition as a as
(39:07):
it stands.
But as far as the research, it'sthose kind of things.
It's what aces did youpotentially experience?
What was your family life like?
Have you ever been raped?
Have you been assaulted?
Have you been mugged?
Have you witnessed that oranything of the sort?
And a lot of the time, peoplewho are severely traumatized and
(39:31):
have an issue with resilienceare people who maybe it didn't
happen directly to them, butthey witnessed it or they were
privy to it at some point in ayoung developmental stage.
And as a result, they didn'tknow how to handle it then.
They were never taught how tohandle it later.
And so they just close in onthemselves when something of
(39:51):
that nature happens to them inthe future, or when something
traumatic or scary happens tothem in the future.
And those people, it's more ofless predisposition.
And more of just, man, I wish Iwould have gotten to you sooner.
I wish I would have known yousooner.
I wish somebody would havegrabbed your hand and talked to
you sooner because again, you'renot broken.
You just nobody helped you ornobody told taught you.
(40:13):
Nobody talked to you.
Nobody took your hand and walkedyou through it when it happened.
And now you're feeling like it'swho you are fundamentally for
the rest of your life.
And that's the scariest part isthat people just get left behind
and then they are deemed lessresilient.
And really it's, I just wasnever, I was never told.
I was never taught.
I was never trained.
(40:33):
So I'm dealing with it the onlyway my body knows how, which is
usually negatively.
SPEAKER_01 (40:40):
You and I both love CrossFit.
So I want to throw my anathletic idea at you and see
what you think and then bring itback to your work.
So I have always wondered why dowe not teach people how to run?
So you look, and some people runnaturally beautifully, and
others it just looks like ithurts.
So bringing that back, we don'tteach kids how to run.
(41:01):
We don't teach kids how to beemotionally resilient.
We should.
At what age do you think thatshould probably start?
SPEAKER_02 (41:10):
So in my research, I talk about how people's lives
are shaped and theirgenerational narratives are
shaped in key developmentalperiods of life.
And those key developmentalperiods are usually somewhere
between 13 years old, probablyto about 18 years old.
So from 13 to 18 is wherereally, if you experience
(41:34):
something horrific or ifsomething traumatic happens,
it's more likely to have along-lasting impact on you.
This is how generationalnarratives are created.
This is why when you look atgenerations and what
differentiates us from eachother, a lot of it is what was
the key or the criticalmonumental incident that
happened when we were in our keydevelopmental stages.
(41:56):
So for Gen X, a lot of it wasfocused around 9-11.
For millennials, a lot of it'sfocused around COVID.
So it's these criticaldevelopmental occurrences that
happen when we're young, but ourbrain is still processing and
absorbing in a really intensiveway.
So I would give anything to sitdown with high school seniors
(42:21):
and teach them this stuff.
Because I think not only are wenot being taught the basics of
living, like balancing acheckbook or credits, but then
we're also not being taught howto be social and how to be human
in a world that's really relyingheavily on technology now.
And so if we could get to thesepopulations, high school seniors
(42:43):
or even younger anywhere in highschool from freshman to senior
year, and just teach them thesetraits and these skill sets, I
think you see very drasticallydifferent outcomes in the long
run as far as how they canmanage their stress, how they
manage their relationships andwhat they take away from what
they want to do with life andwhat they take away from what
(43:04):
they're learning in school and alot more.
Emotional resilience for all.
Yes, definitely.
Definitely.
SPEAKER_01 (43:14):
Regrettably, we have reached the end of the time we
set aside.
Did we miss anything about thework that you do?
SPEAKER_02 (43:20):
I don't think so.
Yeah, I know.
That's in a nutshell what I do.
And it's it changes all thetime.
I am constantly learning.
Learning just never stops.
So it's a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (43:31):
Yeah, if it's okay with you, I think I'll provide
your information about yourpractice to my former ER group.
Just that if anyone wants towork on developing and growing
emotional resilience, I wish Ihad known about this sort of
work 10 years ago.
I'd be a very different doctornow.
SPEAKER_02 (43:45):
Yeah, I would absolutely love to work with
anybody who'd be willing to sitdown with me for even just for a
few sessions and talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (43:55):
All right.
Coach K, I'm super impressed.
I did not know what you did whenwe came into this.
I know we've done CrossFittogether, but I love the work
that you do, building emotionalresilience.
SPEAKER_02 (44:05):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
And I love the work you do.
We're just out here having animpact on people.
It's great.
SPEAKER_01 (44:12):
One last question as we go to wrap up.
How do you incorporate exerciseinto someone's emotional
resilience?
SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
I think it's so critical.
I try to encourage people to getinto some sort of exercise
routine.
And it doesn't have to beCrossFit.
I try to very be very clear.
Go do a sport, go playvolleyball, go golfing, go play
basketball with your friends,anything, any sport you want to
do, just go be active becausegetting out and being active, it
(44:40):
does so much for your bodyphysically and and your mind as
well.
So it's just, it's an incredibletool and having fun is the cost
of it.
And so that's, I think that'ssomething that people sh really
need to incorporate in on theirday-to-day.
SPEAKER_01 (44:54):
All right.
I think we will probably need tocome back and dig into this a
little bit deeper because wetalked about the
high-functioning person that youdo emotional resilience work
with.
I'd love to come back and talkabout when somebody is not as
well resourced and what it'slike really helping someone to
really level up when they don'thave a lot of resilience at
baseline.
Yeah, definitely.
All right.
(45:14):
On that, I thank you for yourtime and I really appreciate
coming on and teaching me.
SPEAKER_02 (45:18):
Yeah, of course.
I look forward to chatting withyou again soon.
SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
Before we wrap up, a huge thank you to the Montage
Health Foundation for backing mymission to create fun, engaging
education on addiction.
And a shout out to the nonprofitCentral Coast Overdose
Prevention for teaming up withme on this podcast.
Our partnership helps me get theword out about how to treat
addiction and prevent overdoses.
(45:46):
To those healthcare providersout there treating patients with
addiction, you're doinglife-saving work and thank you
for what you do.
For everyone else tuning in,thank you for taking the time to
learn about addiction.
It's a fight we cannot winwithout awareness and action.
There's still so much we can doto improve how addiction is
treated.
Together, we can make it happen.
(46:07):
Thanks for listening.
And remember, treating addictionsaves lives.
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