August 11, 2025 • 32 mins
Mark MacNichol, a playwright and charity director, shares how his therapeutic approach called Anonymous Drama helps people in recovery and the justice system process trauma and develop emotional wellbeing by viewing their inner thoughts as characters in a play.
• Anonymous Drama is not traditional theater but uses dramatic techniques for therapeutic purposes
• The program helps participants identify characters in their life story, such as the protagonist, the inner critic, and the inner mentor
• Anonymity protocol allows people to explore trauma through fictional characters without revealing personal experiences
• Participants learn to recognize the difference between their negative inner critic and their positive inner mentor
• Over 5,000 people have participated in Anonymous Drama programs, primarily in justice and recovery settings
• The method works by helping people "rewrite their scripts" and develop healthier relationships with themselves
• Mark developed this approach after his own experiences with family addiction and losing his brother to heroin overdose
• Programs are available through an app for individuals or through group sessions
• Financial assistance is available for those who cannot afford the subscription fee
To learn more about Mark's work: https://www.markmacnicol.com/
To contact Dr. Grover: ammadeeasy@fastmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy
Podcast.
Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover,an addiction medicine doctor
based on California's CentralCoast.
(00:22):
For 14 years I worked in theemergency department seeing
countless patients strugglingwith addiction.
Now I'm on the other side ofthe fight, helping people
rebuild their lives when drugsand alcohol take control.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get started.
Today's episode is a little outof my comfort zone.
(00:44):
As an addiction medicine doctor, I am familiar with medications
, therapy and group meetings.
I am used to hearing aboutdifferent types of therapy, such
as cognitive behavioral therapy.
Today's episode is on atherapeutic modality called
anonymous drama.
I interviewed Mark McNichol,who is a playwright who has
(01:04):
found that a particular way toapproach therapy, which is
taking people's lives andviewing them as scripts in a
play, is extremely therapeuticfor processing trauma and
negative emotions related toaddiction.
He's the man behind thismodality.
Mark has been doing great workhelping people in jail and
prison process their negativeexperiences.
(01:26):
I had zero knowledge orexperience about this topic
before our interview and by theend of the interview I was ready
to start referring patients tohis program.
I will include links to hiswork and programs in the show
notes.
A few heads up before we getstarted.
There is some use of adultlanguage in this episode and
Mark's audio cuts out a fewtimes during the interview, but
(01:48):
otherwise it was amazing.
I learned a ton and I'mgrateful to share it with you.
Here we go, all right, well,greetings from England.
I am so glad to have you on mypodcast.
Why don't you start by tellingme who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
My name is Mark McNichol.
I run a couple of charities inthe UK that deliver what I would
describe as emotionalwell-being programs for
individuals and also for groups.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
How did you get in that line of work this?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
became my focus, this type of work About 10 years ago
, 2016.
Prior to that, I was a writer,director, written and directed
bit of film Mostly theatre, alsoproduced some theatre.
So my day job at that point waswriting, directing and
producing Bit of film mostlytheatre and I was invited by a
(02:46):
charity in Scotland into amaximum security prison to
deliver what would be describedas a kind of traditional drama
group, a traditional appliedtheatre group, and that was my
introduction to the idea ofusing the arts and creativity
specifically with therapeuticintent.
Rather than the usual way thatyou go into these types of
(03:06):
settings with drama programs.
It's about introducing theparticipants to creative writing
or performing, etc.
I became more interested infocusing on the therapeutic
intent, so I started to studythings like drama therapy,
psychodrama, well-establishedfields that focus on utilising
(03:29):
dramatic techniques in order toprovide therapeutic support to
the individuals or groups thatare being worked with 2016,.
But then that very first projectMaximum Security Prison,
working with 10 inmates allserving life sentences on an
(03:50):
applied theatre drama type group, and I just became obsessed,
really obsessed, with the notionof the arts and creativity
being used to try and have apositive impact on individuals
in the justice system or inrecovery and over the last 10
years over 5,000 participantshave been through our group
(04:11):
programme.
I can have a big mix of groups,but probably they would be
split.
Maybe 50% of them go in thejustice space and 50% of them in
the recovery space.
I mean, really the group workcan be applied to any group.
So we've had domestic violencegroups, learning disability
groups, but the vast majority ofthose 5,000 individuals have
(04:33):
been either in the justicesystem, at risk of entering the
justice system, or in recovery.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So I recommend art and music and poetry to my
patients all the time.
In fact, I just bought one ofmy patients a PTSD art book.
She's got a history of alcoholaddiction and so the book has
exercises paint this and work onthese feelings while you paint.
But acting in theater is alittle different.
I have to say I'm not anartistic person.
(05:02):
This stage is not what I liketo do, unless I'm speaking
publicly.
What's it actually like, likeboots on the ground?
What's it feel like to be inone of these theater groups?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
first thing we always say is it's not a drama group
the way that I usually describeit to someone who's never
encountered the program beforemaybe considering taking part in
a session.
In fact, on our posters and itactually says that it's like
drama therapy for people whousually don't have any interest
in drama.
So over 75% of our participantshave no interest in creative
(05:34):
writing, they've got no interestin performing, but they're in a
situation where they might beup for trying something a bit
different.
Obviously, everybody'smotivation for taking part in a
programme is different.
So, for example, being honest,some of our participants in the
justice space might take part inthe programme because they're
bored, because they're sittingin their cell for 23 hours a day
(05:56):
.
Or they might do it becausethey want the parole boards to
look upon them favourably andthey want to be seen to be
taking part in these types ofactivities.
So you know lots of differentmotivations for taking part in
the group, but the vast majorityof individuals have got no
interest in creative writing orperforming.
(06:16):
But we've got a very structuredprogramme that we go through
and, at the kind of core, theessence of what we explore is
there's a conversation going oninside all of our heads 24-7.
And 99% of the population thinkof it as their thoughts.
But we explore an alternativeview and through the program we
(06:42):
actually start to give thosevoices inside our heads specific
character roles.
So every group builds threerecurring characters from
scratch.
The first one is theprotagonist, the main character,
and that character representseverybody in the room, everybody
in the group.
And then the second characteris the inner critic, who has a
(07:06):
constant source of negativity,disruption, all the bad stuff.
And then the third character isthe inner mentor.
The inner mentor is theopposite Constant source of love
, compassion, positivity,encouragement, all the good
stuff.
So, in essence, in the groupsessions, participants are
(07:27):
creating those three recurringcharacters from scratch and over
the weeks they are puttinglayers on those characters and
at the same time they're alsodeveloping a script.
So there is characterdevelopment, there is script
development and the work is notsubtle in the sense that what
we're trying to do is we'retrying to give you, as a
(07:47):
participant, a mirror to hold upto yourself.
So it's an opportunity to lookin the mirror in a very unique
and quite unusual setting.
Ultimately, go on a journey ofself-awareness, where, by
putting these conversationsunder the microscope, where by
putting these conversationsunder the microscope, we start
to learn more about ourselvesand develop a better
(08:10):
relationship with self.
So, for example, if we takealcohol, the nature of what we
do is it's not specifically thealcohol that we are interested
in, or the drugs, it's theconversation that goes along
with it.
Because if me and you aresitting at a table and you put a
bottle of wine or a bottle ofwhiskey on the table, our
(08:30):
relationship it will becompletely different to that
alcohol, but the alcohol is thesame.
It's the same alcohol, twodifferent conversations.
So we deconstruct for ourparticipants, or give them the
opportunity to deconstruct, theconversation that's going on
inside their heads relating toalcohol or drugs.
(08:51):
It could be anything sex,status, money, you know anything
.
Basically every piece ofcontent in our lives 24 7 that
we encounter, there's aconversation that goes along
with it.
How do we feel about thisperson or this theme or this
setting or whatever it is?
Everything in our lives isaccompanied by a conversation
(09:15):
and once people start tounderstand that, they might not
always be able to control theconversation, but as a bare
minimum, they can definitely beaware of the conversation taking
place and, like I say, 99 ofthe population are unaware of
the conversation taking placeand, like I say, 99% of the
population are unaware of theconversation and just think it's
(09:35):
their thoughts.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So let me just ask, mark.
So my first job before I was anaddiction doctor is I was a
doctor in the emergencydepartment and I like to
simplify everything to just whatI need to know.
So let me see if I can simplifythis so I understand it.
So I had come into thisconversation thinking this was
about acting, but instead whatyou're saying is that it's more
about therapy, with theframework being that your life
(10:02):
is a story, there's a script andthe individual thought patterns
are the characters, and itgives the participants a
framework to understand howtheir brain sees and lives in
the world.
Is that right?
yes okay, and why is it done ina group setting as opposed to
individual?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
well, I suppose the original program came from that
first project.
Ah, obviously I was deliveringa drama group in a prison and
it's interesting because I had aconversation with the prison
psychologist and he told mebasically that he wasn't keen on
drama groups.
And you know, obviously, assomeone who was delivering a
(10:43):
drama group, at that point I didmy best to not take it
personally and find out why.
And his answer was fascinatingbecause what he said was that
drama group was being deliveredby myself as a playwright and by
a friend of mine who's an actor.
And what he said was that overthe years that he's worked in
prisons he's seen so many dramagroups coming in and as part of
(11:06):
the work that they do especiallyif you're writing a script from
scratch and you're developingcharacters part of that might
involve you tapping into yourown history, your own lived
experience, and he reckoned thatit was quite common in that
setting for participants tostart to negotiate areas that
(11:26):
could be described asemotionally charged, in some
cases even triggering, and theexploration of unresolved trauma
, for example, as part of thecharacter and script development
.
And understandably he wasconcerned by the fact that these
drama groups were doing thatwhen you've got a playwright and
(11:47):
an actor, neither of whom aremental health professionals.
It's potentially problematic,but it's also problematic for me
as a playwright to be put in aposition where people serving
life sentences are potentiallyunpacking unresolved trauma.
So I had the idea that I wouldintroduce anonymity into the
(12:11):
program, which was somethingthat I started to experiment
with quite early on, and Idiscovered very quickly that it
was effective.
So what I basically did was Iintroduced an anonymity protocol
, which basically meant that inevery session, if Casey's a
participant and Casey wants totalk about mum's alcoholism and
(12:32):
the impact that it had on him asa child, then our facilitators
are trained to basically deflectthat onto fictional characters.
So you will be stopped and theconversation will be.
Let's not do that.
Instead, let's look at thisfictional character's mom's
alcoholism and the impact thatit had on this fictional
(12:54):
character as a child.
So all of the personal historyand lived experience is done in
such a way that basically nobodyin a session knows the
difference between what'sfiction and what's lived
experience.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
So it's almost like a safe place to let the stories
out, because it's fiction.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Nobody knows.
This is the thing.
It's interesting because if youthink about what fiction is,
fiction isn't fiction in thesense that the person who is
writing it if it's a novel or ifit's a stage play or if it's a
screenplay probably the personwho is writing that script is
using their lived experience.
(13:34):
So, for example, I wrote anovel many years ago Now.
If you read the novel and thenme and you sit down we could go
through the novel and I couldexplain to you which characters
and scenes in the novel arecompletely made up and which
ones actually happened and whichones are maybe a mixture of the
two.
But the irony of good fictionis that in order for it to be
(13:59):
good fiction, it has to be real.
So when we're in these groupsettings and participants are
developing fictional charactersin an anonymous context, an
anonymous setting where nobodyknows the difference between
what's lived experience andwhat's fiction, as the
characters are developed and asthe script is developed, who can
say what is fiction and what islived experience?
(14:21):
Just like if you read my novel,you can't say which bits are
fictional and which bits arelived experience, because you
don't have the insight into meas the source.
Creator of the novel.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So once again let me put on my simple ER doc brain.
So what I'm hearing is thatdrama therapy again is looking
at your life as a story andyou're trying to understand the
script by naming differentthoughts and even people in your
life as characters.
It would seem like this wouldbe a useful one-on-one technique
where a person could work ontheir inner critic and their
(14:56):
inner mentor, but in a groupsetting.
It's more just allowing peopleto get their stories out in a
safe place.
And my understanding abouttrauma is just you've got to
process it in some way.
And my understanding abouttrauma is just you've got to
process it in some way.
And if this works, that soundsgreat to me.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, to give you an example, we do have a program
for individuals.
That was an adaptation of thegroup program.
We started with the groupprogram but we wanted to give
exactly like you said.
We wanted to give individualsthe opportunity to do this type
of work on their own, in theirown time, at their own pace.
So we created a programmecalled Find your Mentor and that
(15:35):
programme is very successful,also In a group setting.
The idea is, for example, wealways do exit interviews.
Every participant gets an exitinterview.
It gives us the opportunity toevaluate and get a sense of
what's working, what's notworking.
And I remember one chap who saidthat something happened to him
in high school which was sotraumatic that he had never been
(15:58):
able to share it with anyone.
He'd never shared it withfriends, family.
He went to fellowship meetings.
He'd never shared a fellowshipmeeting.
He had one-to-one psychotherapyand group psychotherapy.
He had never shared afellowship meeting.
He had one-to-one psychotherapyand group psychotherapy.
He had never shared it anywherebecause it was too traumatic
for him.
However, in our group sessions,because nobody knew the
(16:18):
difference between what was realand what was fictional, he said
that he was able to do somework with a fictional character
in the group that ultimatelyrepresented him at high school
going through this difficultexperience.
But because nobody knew that itwas real, he felt more relaxed,
(16:39):
confident to be given theopportunity to do some
exploration work that was mynext question is how do you tell
if it works?
Well, unfortunately, in arecovery and a justice context
that is very easy to do, becauseif the participant returns to
jail, then it didn't work.
(17:01):
There you go.
And if in a recovery context,if the participant dies, then it
didn't work.
Recovery context if theparticipant dies, then it didn't
work.
So you know the stakes couldn'tbe any higher.
On the work that we do.
We're trying to keep people outof prison, we're trying to stop
people from offending orre-offending and we're trying to
keep people in recovery.
(17:21):
My lived experience andprobably one of the reasons why
I'm so passionate about the workwhen I grew up, my mum and dad
were both alcoholics and we canhave this conversation because
we're not in a session, so theanonymity protocol doesn't apply
.
My parents were both alcoholicsand my brother, who was in and
out of the justice system,unfortunately died of a heroin
(17:43):
overdose.
So, as a family member affectedby addiction and the justice
system, I have a fair amount oflived experience and, in terms
of how we know if we are makinga difference or not, we're not
naive and we know that it's nota silver bullet.
(18:10):
A result of this program, adecent number of people have
been kept out of the justicesystem and a decent number of
people have been kept inrecovery.
Now, obviously it's not justbecause of this program, because
if you are staying out of thejustice system or if you're
staying in recovery, then thereality is you're going to be
doing the work, and the workinvolves doing many different
things.
It's not one thing that's goingto fix you, so to speak.
(18:31):
The work is going to bedifferent for everybody.
To stay on that path that weall know is the path that we
want to stay on, then you mightbe doing things like exercise,
eating, clean meditation, sauna,cold water, supplements,
whatever.
You know, everybody's different.
(18:52):
But the people who are beingkept out of the justice system
and being kept in recovery it'snot just because of this program
, but certainly this programcould be considered to
contribute so I'm just lookingonline while we're talking it
seems like there's a couple ofpermutations of drama therapy,
so I'm seeing some drama therapythat's much more like acting.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Are there different approaches?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, the first thing I would say is drama therapy is
its own thing and anonymousdrama is its own thing.
If I say to someone it's likedrama therapy but it's not drama
therapy, at least that givesthem kind of half an idea of the
direction that I'm going in.
But my understanding of, forexample, drama therapy and
(19:40):
psychodrama now, drama therapyand psychodrama are two
well-established fields.
They are both in the mentalhealth space.
My understanding is that thisis just my personal experience.
Most of the drama therapypractitioners that I meet come
from a creative arts background,so they are perhaps trained as
(20:02):
actors or writers etc.
And moved into the dramatherapy field, whereas
psychodrama practitioners, in myexperience, come from the
mental health arena and tend tobe psychotherapists etc.
So psychodrama and dramatherapy are two well-established
fields, but, like I say,anonymous drama.
(20:24):
Basically what I did back in2016 I introduced the anonymity
to keep the prison psychologisthappy and by doing so, it gave
me the opportunity to experimentand explore what the anonymity,
what's it like in that type ofenvironment where you're
developing characters and you'redeveloping monologues and
sketchings and spoken wordswhat's it like to actually do it
(20:48):
in this unusual, anonymoussetting?
So the program is calledAnonymous Drama.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Anonymous Drama.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, because we wanted to give people a sense of
the anonymity and we alsowanted to give people a sense of
the fact that, whilst it's nota drama group, if you come to
one of the sessions, you aregoing to be getting involved in
things like improvisations andhot seats and things that
typically you would expect tosee in a rehearsal room.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Wow.
So it seems like there's anestablished field of drama
therapy and psychodrama, butyour program, specifically the
anonymous drama, is more focusedon people who are justice
involved and with addiction.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Well, technically, the anonymous drama group could
be applied to any group.
Okay, so you know the nature ofthe facilitators who go through
the induction and training inorder to deliver one of the
groups.
They don't need to have a dramabackground, they don't need to
have a therapy background.
They don't need to have a dramatherapy background.
Many of our facilitatorsactually start off as
(21:53):
participants and come back asvolunteers, go through the
induction and training, so theywould be classed as lived
experience facilitators with nodrama or therapy type
backgrounds.
But, like I say, technicallyany group could be brought into
the session plan.
You know, each session is twohours.
We start off with someicebreakers and group games and
(22:15):
then we do some characterdevelopment and then we do some
meditation and breath work andthen we do some script
development and then we do somekind of exit guided imagery.
So that session plan can beapplied to any group.
Now, why, for the last 10 years,have the charities who deliver
the programme focused inparticular on people in the
(22:37):
justice space or people in therecovery space?
If I'm being honest, it'sprobably for two reasons.
Number one, my personal livedexperience and my desire to have
a positive impact on people inthe justice space of people in
recovery.
And number two most of the workthat we do and have done is
funded.
In the UK we call it thirdsector.
(22:59):
In the US you probably call itnot-for-profit.
The vast majority of fundingcomes from grant funders and if
you are going to apply for somegrant funding, usually the grant
funders want you to sit in abox.
So if you're submitting anapplication for funding, then
it's a justice group or it's arecovery group or you know.
(23:22):
Those are probably the tworeasons why the focus has been
justice or recovery.
But, like I say, it could beapplied to any group.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I'm curious, so pick on me.
I tend to be a pretty open bookwhen I'm podcasting.
Can you actually show me, withme, what it would look like to
develop some of my owncharacters?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So are you talking about the group program or the
program for individuals?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Just kind of how it works, like, let's imagine we're
in a group and there's morepeople and you're specifically
focusing on me, helping me tounderstand my characters.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Well, I suppose it's probably going to be easier
because there's just two of us.
It's going to be easier becausethere's just two of us.
It's going to be easier for usto do it in the context of the
program for individuals.
Okay, rather than a group,because we don't have a group,
it's just you.
But the program for individualsis on an app, and so you would
log into the app and, by the way, the links to both programs are
(24:12):
on the front page of all mysocials, so what we are talking
about can be accessed on any ofmy socials, which is mark
m-a-r-k-m-a-c-n-i-c-o-l, markmcnichol.
So if you download the app, thefirst thing you're going to do
is you can either read the introor you can watch a video or
listen to the audio of the intro, and then step one is going to
(24:35):
be after you've been introducedto the concept of the
conversation that's going oninside your head, the idea of
the majority of it beingnegative and critical, and the
idea that you can actuallydevelop a relationship with a
mentor who gives you constantlove, compassion, positivity.
(24:56):
Your biggest fan that's alwaysin your corner, that's the inner
mentor.
Yeah, so when I talk about theinner critic, would it be fair
to say that you've got a goodunderstanding of who I'm talking
about inside your own head.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I know it's there, I've never worked with it.
I have a therapist, but we go atotally different direction.
Do I name it?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I would say no, because the idea is that what we
are trying to do is we aretrying to be conscious of the
fact that the inner criticexists, but keep to a minimum
the amount of interaction wehave with the inner critic,
because the inner critic's jobis to fuck you up.
It's so true.
Yeah, so basically, a good dayat the office for the inner
critic is you committing suicide?
(25:42):
That's fair.
And this is 24-7.
This is while you're asleep.
Also, you are constantly beingbombarded with messages of all
of the ways in which you are notgood enough, inadequate, a
completely useless, worthlesspiece of shit, and it's just
constant.
And if you give the innercritique the opportunity, it
(26:05):
will just do it 24-7.
And it's very subtle and it'svery clever because it knows
your specific karmic buttons.
It knows the things that it canget you on, so it might be able
to get you on things that it'snot going to try to get me on,
because it knows you arguablybetter than you know yourself so
it's my job to write the innercritic out of my script.
(26:26):
So after you start to accept theexistence of the inner critique
and after you start to becomeaware of them, it becomes a bit
like muscle memory, where themore you do the work and the
program you start to, every nowand then you'll be walking down
the street and you'll hear it.
You'll hear a voice and you'llbe like that's it.
That's the voice.
I heard that Now.
(26:46):
Previously you probably weren'teven aware of the voice because
you just thought it was yourthoughts.
So you're going to be aware ofthe voice but you're going to
meet.
In some cases for the firsttime.
You're going to meet the innermentor and you're going to meet
the opposite of the inner criticthat's got lots of different
names and lots of differentcultures to be in our program.
(27:07):
You don't have to be religiousor spiritual.
It works if you're atheist oragnostic.
Some people would call theinner mentor god, some people
would call it buddha, somepeople would call it reauthentic
self, the universe, whatever,but the idea that you've got
access to something which isgoing to put an arm around you
(27:32):
and basically just remind you ofyour inherent value.
It's that authentic self, thatpart of you that most of us
either don't know it exists or,if we do, we don't spend as much
time with it as we should.
For example, one of the firstthings that you're going to do
in the program is you're goingto pick a specific piece of
(27:52):
content, so it might might bealcohol, it might be drugs, it
might be sugar, it might be aspecific person or relationship,
it could be anything.
But in the programme we'regoing to work with that
particular piece of content andwe're going to work with
listening to what the innercritic says about that content
and engaging with the innermentor.
(28:13):
One exercise that participantsare asked to do which is very
popular is the idea of writing alove letter from your inner
mentor.
So, for example, you know Caseygiving Casey's inner mentor the
opportunity to write a one-pagelove letter telling you all of
the reasons why you're a goodguy and why you're doing your
(28:35):
best, and all of the things thatyou're a good guy and why
you're doing your best and allof the things that you've got to
be grateful for, etc.
That is something that very fewpeople that come through our
programme have ever evenconsidered doing.
It can be a very powerfulexercise when participants write
their love letter to themselvesfrom their inner mentor,
(28:58):
because we're all beingbombarded 24-7 by the inner
critic and every now and thenit's very powerful to engage
with and develop a relationshipwith the inner critic's nemesis.
Who is the inner mentor?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
The battle of good and evil in the brain mark.
This is fascinating.
I've got plenty of patientsthat would really benefit from
this.
If someone's listening and theythink I either want this sort
of therapy or I want to get in agroup like this, or my brother
or my loved one would benefitfrom this, how can they get
started?
Get?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
on the mark, but nickel socials and have a look
at the links.
Any individual who wants to gothrough the program, there's a
monthly subscription.
But if somebody can't affordthat monthly subscription
although it is quite low I mean,it's only a couple of coffees
but if, for whatever reason,somebody was not able to afford
that subscription, if theymessage the email address on the
(29:51):
link then they will get a freeaccess, because the people who
can pay pay for the people whocan't pay.
And then, when it comes to thegroup sessions, there is a link
to a subscription forindividuals to go through the
induction and training so thatthey can deliver their own
groups, because the reality isthat you probably won't have a
(30:13):
group local.
So if you don't have a grouplocal, then we would encourage
you to set up your own group andagain, if the subscription fee
was a barrier to you doing that,then you will get a free
subscription because the peoplewho can pay for it pay for the
people who can't.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
You know, Mark, I can tell you've had some lived
experience with addiction inyour life.
Because you care, I'm the Mark.
I can tell you've had somelived experience with addiction
in your life.
Because you care, I'm the sameway Like if you can't pay, we'll
make it work.
Well, I got to say, Mark, as Icame into this not knowing what
to expect, and you have totallygiven me lots to think about.
And research reminds me of apodcast episode I did a few
weeks ago with a woman Actually,I bought her book where she
(30:54):
finally got sober when shelearned to identify her inner
critic and identify positiveself-talk.
And it's just a different wayto think of the inner critic and
the inner mentor.
So I have to say thank you somuch for coming on my podcast.
I'll put some of the links toyour work in the show notes and
thank you for what you do.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Thank you for having me along, because if it wasn't
for people like you, Caseypeople like me couldn't get the
word out.
So thank you for what you do.
Thank you for having me along,because if it wasn't for people
like you, Casey people like mecouldn't get the word out.
So thank you for your work.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Before we wrap up, a huge thank you to the Montage
Health Foundation for backing mymission to create fun, engaging
education on addiction, and ashout out to the non-profit
Central Coast OverdosePrevention for teaming up with
me on this podcast.
Our partnership helps me getthe word out about how to treat
addiction and prevent overdosesTo those healthcare providers
(31:46):
out there treating patients withaddiction.
You're doing life-saving workand thank you for what you do
For everyone else tuning in.
Thank you for taking the timeto learn about addiction.
It's a fight we cannot winwithout awareness and action.
There's still so much we can doto improve how addiction is
treated.
Together we can make it happen.
Thanks for listening andremember treating addiction
(32:09):
saves lives you.
Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy
Podcast.
Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover,an addiction medicine doctor
based on California's CentralCoast.
(00:22):
For 14 years I worked in theemergency department seeing
countless patients strugglingwith addiction.
Now I'm on the other side ofthe fight, helping people
rebuild their lives when drugsand alcohol take control.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get started.
Today's episode is a little outof my comfort zone.
(00:44):
As an addiction medicine doctor, I am familiar with medications
, therapy and group meetings.
I am used to hearing aboutdifferent types of therapy, such
as cognitive behavioral therapy.
Today's episode is on atherapeutic modality called
anonymous drama.
I interviewed Mark McNichol,who is a playwright who has
(01:04):
found that a particular way toapproach therapy, which is
taking people's lives andviewing them as scripts in a
play, is extremely therapeuticfor processing trauma and
negative emotions related toaddiction.
He's the man behind thismodality.
Mark has been doing great workhelping people in jail and
prison process their negativeexperiences.
(01:26):
I had zero knowledge orexperience about this topic
before our interview and by theend of the interview I was ready
to start referring patients tohis program.
I will include links to hiswork and programs in the show
notes.
A few heads up before we getstarted.
There is some use of adultlanguage in this episode and
Mark's audio cuts out a fewtimes during the interview, but
(01:48):
otherwise it was amazing.
I learned a ton and I'mgrateful to share it with you.
Here we go, all right, well,greetings from England.
I am so glad to have you on mypodcast.
Why don't you start by tellingme who you are and what you do?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
My name is Mark McNichol.
I run a couple of charities inthe UK that deliver what I would
describe as emotionalwell-being programs for
individuals and also for groups.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
How did you get in that line of work this?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
became my focus, this type of work About 10 years ago
, 2016.
Prior to that, I was a writer,director, written and directed
bit of film Mostly theatre, alsoproduced some theatre.
So my day job at that point waswriting, directing and
producing Bit of film mostlytheatre and I was invited by a
(02:46):
charity in Scotland into amaximum security prison to
deliver what would be describedas a kind of traditional drama
group, a traditional appliedtheatre group, and that was my
introduction to the idea ofusing the arts and creativity
specifically with therapeuticintent.
Rather than the usual way thatyou go into these types of
(03:06):
settings with drama programs.
It's about introducing theparticipants to creative writing
or performing, etc.
I became more interested infocusing on the therapeutic
intent, so I started to studythings like drama therapy,
psychodrama, well-establishedfields that focus on utilising
(03:29):
dramatic techniques in order toprovide therapeutic support to
the individuals or groups thatare being worked with 2016,.
But then that very first projectMaximum Security Prison,
working with 10 inmates allserving life sentences on an
(03:50):
applied theatre drama type group, and I just became obsessed,
really obsessed, with the notionof the arts and creativity
being used to try and have apositive impact on individuals
in the justice system or inrecovery and over the last 10
years over 5,000 participantshave been through our group
(04:11):
programme.
I can have a big mix of groups,but probably they would be
split.
Maybe 50% of them go in thejustice space and 50% of them in
the recovery space.
I mean, really the group workcan be applied to any group.
So we've had domestic violencegroups, learning disability
groups, but the vast majority ofthose 5,000 individuals have
(04:33):
been either in the justicesystem, at risk of entering the
justice system, or in recovery.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
So I recommend art and music and poetry to my
patients all the time.
In fact, I just bought one ofmy patients a PTSD art book.
She's got a history of alcoholaddiction and so the book has
exercises paint this and work onthese feelings while you paint.
But acting in theater is alittle different.
I have to say I'm not anartistic person.
(05:02):
This stage is not what I liketo do, unless I'm speaking
publicly.
What's it actually like, likeboots on the ground?
What's it feel like to be inone of these theater groups?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
first thing we always say is it's not a drama group
the way that I usually describeit to someone who's never
encountered the program beforemaybe considering taking part in
a session.
In fact, on our posters and itactually says that it's like
drama therapy for people whousually don't have any interest
in drama.
So over 75% of our participantshave no interest in creative
(05:34):
writing, they've got no interestin performing, but they're in a
situation where they might beup for trying something a bit
different.
Obviously, everybody'smotivation for taking part in a
programme is different.
So, for example, being honest,some of our participants in the
justice space might take part inthe programme because they're
bored, because they're sittingin their cell for 23 hours a day
(05:56):
.
Or they might do it becausethey want the parole boards to
look upon them favourably andthey want to be seen to be
taking part in these types ofactivities.
So you know lots of differentmotivations for taking part in
the group, but the vast majorityof individuals have got no
interest in creative writing orperforming.
(06:16):
But we've got a very structuredprogramme that we go through
and, at the kind of core, theessence of what we explore is
there's a conversation going oninside all of our heads 24-7.
And 99% of the population thinkof it as their thoughts.
But we explore an alternativeview and through the program we
(06:42):
actually start to give thosevoices inside our heads specific
character roles.
So every group builds threerecurring characters from
scratch.
The first one is theprotagonist, the main character,
and that character representseverybody in the room, everybody
in the group.
And then the second characteris the inner critic, who has a
(07:06):
constant source of negativity,disruption, all the bad stuff.
And then the third character isthe inner mentor.
The inner mentor is theopposite Constant source of love
, compassion, positivity,encouragement, all the good
stuff.
So, in essence, in the groupsessions, participants are
(07:27):
creating those three recurringcharacters from scratch and over
the weeks they are puttinglayers on those characters and
at the same time they're alsodeveloping a script.
So there is characterdevelopment, there is script
development and the work is notsubtle in the sense that what
we're trying to do is we'retrying to give you, as a
(07:47):
participant, a mirror to hold upto yourself.
So it's an opportunity to lookin the mirror in a very unique
and quite unusual setting.
Ultimately, go on a journey ofself-awareness, where, by
putting these conversationsunder the microscope, where by
putting these conversationsunder the microscope, we start
to learn more about ourselvesand develop a better
(08:10):
relationship with self.
So, for example, if we takealcohol, the nature of what we
do is it's not specifically thealcohol that we are interested
in, or the drugs, it's theconversation that goes along
with it.
Because if me and you aresitting at a table and you put a
bottle of wine or a bottle ofwhiskey on the table, our
(08:30):
relationship it will becompletely different to that
alcohol, but the alcohol is thesame.
It's the same alcohol, twodifferent conversations.
So we deconstruct for ourparticipants, or give them the
opportunity to deconstruct, theconversation that's going on
inside their heads relating toalcohol or drugs.
(08:51):
It could be anything sex,status, money, you know anything
.
Basically every piece ofcontent in our lives 24 7 that
we encounter, there's aconversation that goes along
with it.
How do we feel about thisperson or this theme or this
setting or whatever it is?
Everything in our lives isaccompanied by a conversation
(09:15):
and once people start tounderstand that, they might not
always be able to control theconversation, but as a bare
minimum, they can definitely beaware of the conversation taking
place and, like I say, 99 ofthe population are unaware of
the conversation taking placeand, like I say, 99% of the
population are unaware of theconversation and just think it's
(09:35):
their thoughts.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
So let me just ask, mark.
So my first job before I was anaddiction doctor is I was a
doctor in the emergencydepartment and I like to
simplify everything to just whatI need to know.
So let me see if I can simplifythis so I understand it.
So I had come into thisconversation thinking this was
about acting, but instead whatyou're saying is that it's more
about therapy, with theframework being that your life
(10:02):
is a story, there's a script andthe individual thought patterns
are the characters, and itgives the participants a
framework to understand howtheir brain sees and lives in
the world.
Is that right?
yes okay, and why is it done ina group setting as opposed to
individual?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
well, I suppose the original program came from that
first project.
Ah, obviously I was deliveringa drama group in a prison and
it's interesting because I had aconversation with the prison
psychologist and he told mebasically that he wasn't keen on
drama groups.
And you know, obviously, assomeone who was delivering a
(10:43):
drama group, at that point I didmy best to not take it
personally and find out why.
And his answer was fascinatingbecause what he said was that
drama group was being deliveredby myself as a playwright and by
a friend of mine who's an actor.
And what he said was that overthe years that he's worked in
prisons he's seen so many dramagroups coming in and as part of
(11:06):
the work that they do especiallyif you're writing a script from
scratch and you're developingcharacters part of that might
involve you tapping into yourown history, your own lived
experience, and he reckoned thatit was quite common in that
setting for participants tostart to negotiate areas that
(11:26):
could be described asemotionally charged, in some
cases even triggering, and theexploration of unresolved trauma
, for example, as part of thecharacter and script development
.
And understandably he wasconcerned by the fact that these
drama groups were doing thatwhen you've got a playwright and
(11:47):
an actor, neither of whom aremental health professionals.
It's potentially problematic,but it's also problematic for me
as a playwright to be put in aposition where people serving
life sentences are potentiallyunpacking unresolved trauma.
So I had the idea that I wouldintroduce anonymity into the
(12:11):
program, which was somethingthat I started to experiment
with quite early on, and Idiscovered very quickly that it
was effective.
So what I basically did was Iintroduced an anonymity protocol
, which basically meant that inevery session, if Casey's a
participant and Casey wants totalk about mum's alcoholism and
(12:32):
the impact that it had on him asa child, then our facilitators
are trained to basically deflectthat onto fictional characters.
So you will be stopped and theconversation will be.
Let's not do that.
Instead, let's look at thisfictional character's mom's
alcoholism and the impact thatit had on this fictional
(12:54):
character as a child.
So all of the personal historyand lived experience is done in
such a way that basically nobodyin a session knows the
difference between what'sfiction and what's lived
experience.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
So it's almost like a safe place to let the stories
out, because it's fiction.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Nobody knows.
This is the thing.
It's interesting because if youthink about what fiction is,
fiction isn't fiction in thesense that the person who is
writing it if it's a novel or ifit's a stage play or if it's a
screenplay probably the personwho is writing that script is
using their lived experience.
(13:34):
So, for example, I wrote anovel many years ago Now.
If you read the novel and thenme and you sit down we could go
through the novel and I couldexplain to you which characters
and scenes in the novel arecompletely made up and which
ones actually happened and whichones are maybe a mixture of the
two.
But the irony of good fictionis that in order for it to be
(13:59):
good fiction, it has to be real.
So when we're in these groupsettings and participants are
developing fictional charactersin an anonymous context, an
anonymous setting where nobodyknows the difference between
what's lived experience andwhat's fiction, as the
characters are developed and asthe script is developed, who can
say what is fiction and what islived experience?
(14:21):
Just like if you read my novel,you can't say which bits are
fictional and which bits arelived experience, because you
don't have the insight into meas the source.
Creator of the novel.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So once again let me put on my simple ER doc brain.
So what I'm hearing is thatdrama therapy again is looking
at your life as a story andyou're trying to understand the
script by naming differentthoughts and even people in your
life as characters.
It would seem like this wouldbe a useful one-on-one technique
where a person could work ontheir inner critic and their
(14:56):
inner mentor, but in a groupsetting.
It's more just allowing peopleto get their stories out in a
safe place.
And my understanding abouttrauma is just you've got to
process it in some way.
And my understanding abouttrauma is just you've got to
process it in some way.
And if this works, that soundsgreat to me.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, to give you an example, we do have a program
for individuals.
That was an adaptation of thegroup program.
We started with the groupprogram but we wanted to give
exactly like you said.
We wanted to give individualsthe opportunity to do this type
of work on their own, in theirown time, at their own pace.
So we created a programmecalled Find your Mentor and that
(15:35):
programme is very successful,also In a group setting.
The idea is, for example, wealways do exit interviews.
Every participant gets an exitinterview.
It gives us the opportunity toevaluate and get a sense of
what's working, what's notworking.
And I remember one chap who saidthat something happened to him
in high school which was sotraumatic that he had never been
(15:58):
able to share it with anyone.
He'd never shared it withfriends, family.
He went to fellowship meetings.
He'd never shared a fellowshipmeeting.
He had one-to-one psychotherapyand group psychotherapy.
He had never shared afellowship meeting.
He had one-to-one psychotherapyand group psychotherapy.
He had never shared it anywherebecause it was too traumatic
for him.
However, in our group sessions,because nobody knew the
(16:18):
difference between what was realand what was fictional, he said
that he was able to do somework with a fictional character
in the group that ultimatelyrepresented him at high school
going through this difficultexperience.
But because nobody knew that itwas real, he felt more relaxed,
(16:39):
confident to be given theopportunity to do some
exploration work that was mynext question is how do you tell
if it works?
Well, unfortunately, in arecovery and a justice context
that is very easy to do, becauseif the participant returns to
jail, then it didn't work.
(17:01):
There you go.
And if in a recovery context,if the participant dies, then it
didn't work.
Recovery context if theparticipant dies, then it didn't
work.
So you know the stakes couldn'tbe any higher.
On the work that we do.
We're trying to keep people outof prison, we're trying to stop
people from offending orre-offending and we're trying to
keep people in recovery.
(17:21):
My lived experience andprobably one of the reasons why
I'm so passionate about the workwhen I grew up, my mum and dad
were both alcoholics and we canhave this conversation because
we're not in a session, so theanonymity protocol doesn't apply
.
My parents were both alcoholicsand my brother, who was in and
out of the justice system,unfortunately died of a heroin
(17:43):
overdose.
So, as a family member affectedby addiction and the justice
system, I have a fair amount oflived experience and, in terms
of how we know if we are makinga difference or not, we're not
naive and we know that it's nota silver bullet.
(18:10):
A result of this program, adecent number of people have
been kept out of the justicesystem and a decent number of
people have been kept inrecovery.
Now, obviously it's not justbecause of this program, because
if you are staying out of thejustice system or if you're
staying in recovery, then thereality is you're going to be
doing the work, and the workinvolves doing many different
things.
It's not one thing that's goingto fix you, so to speak.
(18:31):
The work is going to bedifferent for everybody.
To stay on that path that weall know is the path that we
want to stay on, then you mightbe doing things like exercise,
eating, clean meditation, sauna,cold water, supplements,
whatever.
You know, everybody's different.
(18:52):
But the people who are beingkept out of the justice system
and being kept in recovery it'snot just because of this program
, but certainly this programcould be considered to
contribute so I'm just lookingonline while we're talking it
seems like there's a couple ofpermutations of drama therapy,
so I'm seeing some drama therapythat's much more like acting.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Are there different approaches?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, the first thing I would say is drama therapy is
its own thing and anonymousdrama is its own thing.
If I say to someone it's likedrama therapy but it's not drama
therapy, at least that givesthem kind of half an idea of the
direction that I'm going in.
But my understanding of, forexample, drama therapy and
(19:40):
psychodrama now, drama therapyand psychodrama are two
well-established fields.
They are both in the mentalhealth space.
My understanding is that thisis just my personal experience.
Most of the drama therapypractitioners that I meet come
from a creative arts background,so they are perhaps trained as
(20:02):
actors or writers etc.
And moved into the dramatherapy field, whereas
psychodrama practitioners, in myexperience, come from the
mental health arena and tend tobe psychotherapists etc.
So psychodrama and dramatherapy are two well-established
fields, but, like I say,anonymous drama.
(20:24):
Basically what I did back in2016 I introduced the anonymity
to keep the prison psychologisthappy and by doing so, it gave
me the opportunity to experimentand explore what the anonymity,
what's it like in that type ofenvironment where you're
developing characters and you'redeveloping monologues and
sketchings and spoken wordswhat's it like to actually do it
(20:48):
in this unusual, anonymoussetting?
So the program is calledAnonymous Drama.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Anonymous Drama.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, because we wanted to give people a sense of
the anonymity and we alsowanted to give people a sense of
the fact that, whilst it's nota drama group, if you come to
one of the sessions, you aregoing to be getting involved in
things like improvisations andhot seats and things that
typically you would expect tosee in a rehearsal room.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Wow.
So it seems like there's anestablished field of drama
therapy and psychodrama, butyour program, specifically the
anonymous drama, is more focusedon people who are justice
involved and with addiction.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Well, technically, the anonymous drama group could
be applied to any group.
Okay, so you know the nature ofthe facilitators who go through
the induction and training inorder to deliver one of the
groups.
They don't need to have a dramabackground, they don't need to
have a therapy background.
They don't need to have a dramatherapy background.
Many of our facilitatorsactually start off as
(21:53):
participants and come back asvolunteers, go through the
induction and training, so theywould be classed as lived
experience facilitators with nodrama or therapy type
backgrounds.
But, like I say, technicallyany group could be brought into
the session plan.
You know, each session is twohours.
We start off with someicebreakers and group games and
(22:15):
then we do some characterdevelopment and then we do some
meditation and breath work andthen we do some script
development and then we do somekind of exit guided imagery.
So that session plan can beapplied to any group.
Now, why, for the last 10 years,have the charities who deliver
the programme focused inparticular on people in the
(22:37):
justice space or people in therecovery space?
If I'm being honest, it'sprobably for two reasons.
Number one, my personal livedexperience and my desire to have
a positive impact on people inthe justice space of people in
recovery.
And number two most of the workthat we do and have done is
funded.
In the UK we call it thirdsector.
(22:59):
In the US you probably call itnot-for-profit.
The vast majority of fundingcomes from grant funders and if
you are going to apply for somegrant funding, usually the grant
funders want you to sit in abox.
So if you're submitting anapplication for funding, then
it's a justice group or it's arecovery group or you know.
(23:22):
Those are probably the tworeasons why the focus has been
justice or recovery.
But, like I say, it could beapplied to any group.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
I'm curious, so pick on me.
I tend to be a pretty open bookwhen I'm podcasting.
Can you actually show me, withme, what it would look like to
develop some of my owncharacters?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
So are you talking about the group program or the
program for individuals?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Just kind of how it works, like, let's imagine we're
in a group and there's morepeople and you're specifically
focusing on me, helping me tounderstand my characters.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Well, I suppose it's probably going to be easier
because there's just two of us.
It's going to be easier becausethere's just two of us.
It's going to be easier for usto do it in the context of the
program for individuals.
Okay, rather than a group,because we don't have a group,
it's just you.
But the program for individualsis on an app, and so you would
log into the app and, by the way, the links to both programs are
(24:12):
on the front page of all mysocials, so what we are talking
about can be accessed on any ofmy socials, which is mark
m-a-r-k-m-a-c-n-i-c-o-l, markmcnichol.
So if you download the app, thefirst thing you're going to do
is you can either read the introor you can watch a video or
listen to the audio of the intro, and then step one is going to
(24:35):
be after you've been introducedto the concept of the
conversation that's going oninside your head, the idea of
the majority of it beingnegative and critical, and the
idea that you can actuallydevelop a relationship with a
mentor who gives you constantlove, compassion, positivity.
(24:56):
Your biggest fan that's alwaysin your corner, that's the inner
mentor.
Yeah, so when I talk about theinner critic, would it be fair
to say that you've got a goodunderstanding of who I'm talking
about inside your own head.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I know it's there, I've never worked with it.
I have a therapist, but we go atotally different direction.
Do I name it?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I would say no, because the idea is that what we
are trying to do is we aretrying to be conscious of the
fact that the inner criticexists, but keep to a minimum
the amount of interaction wehave with the inner critic,
because the inner critic's jobis to fuck you up.
It's so true.
Yeah, so basically, a good dayat the office for the inner
critic is you committing suicide?
(25:42):
That's fair.
And this is 24-7.
This is while you're asleep.
Also, you are constantly beingbombarded with messages of all
of the ways in which you are notgood enough, inadequate, a
completely useless, worthlesspiece of shit, and it's just
constant.
And if you give the innercritique the opportunity, it
(26:05):
will just do it 24-7.
And it's very subtle and it'svery clever because it knows
your specific karmic buttons.
It knows the things that it canget you on, so it might be able
to get you on things that it'snot going to try to get me on,
because it knows you arguablybetter than you know yourself so
it's my job to write the innercritic out of my script.
(26:26):
So after you start to accept theexistence of the inner critique
and after you start to becomeaware of them, it becomes a bit
like muscle memory, where themore you do the work and the
program you start to, every nowand then you'll be walking down
the street and you'll hear it.
You'll hear a voice and you'llbe like that's it.
That's the voice.
I heard that Now.
(26:46):
Previously you probably weren'teven aware of the voice because
you just thought it was yourthoughts.
So you're going to be aware ofthe voice but you're going to
meet.
In some cases for the firsttime.
You're going to meet the innermentor and you're going to meet
the opposite of the inner criticthat's got lots of different
names and lots of differentcultures to be in our program.
(27:07):
You don't have to be religiousor spiritual.
It works if you're atheist oragnostic.
Some people would call theinner mentor god, some people
would call it buddha, somepeople would call it reauthentic
self, the universe, whatever,but the idea that you've got
access to something which isgoing to put an arm around you
(27:32):
and basically just remind you ofyour inherent value.
It's that authentic self, thatpart of you that most of us
either don't know it exists or,if we do, we don't spend as much
time with it as we should.
For example, one of the firstthings that you're going to do
in the program is you're goingto pick a specific piece of
(27:52):
content, so it might might bealcohol, it might be drugs, it
might be sugar, it might be aspecific person or relationship,
it could be anything.
But in the programme we'regoing to work with that
particular piece of content andwe're going to work with
listening to what the innercritic says about that content
and engaging with the innermentor.
(28:13):
One exercise that participantsare asked to do which is very
popular is the idea of writing alove letter from your inner
mentor.
So, for example, you know Caseygiving Casey's inner mentor the
opportunity to write a one-pagelove letter telling you all of
the reasons why you're a goodguy and why you're doing your
(28:35):
best, and all of the things thatyou're a good guy and why
you're doing your best and allof the things that you've got to
be grateful for, etc.
That is something that very fewpeople that come through our
programme have ever evenconsidered doing.
It can be a very powerfulexercise when participants write
their love letter to themselvesfrom their inner mentor,
(28:58):
because we're all beingbombarded 24-7 by the inner
critic and every now and thenit's very powerful to engage
with and develop a relationshipwith the inner critic's nemesis.
Who is the inner mentor?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
The battle of good and evil in the brain mark.
This is fascinating.
I've got plenty of patientsthat would really benefit from
this.
If someone's listening and theythink I either want this sort
of therapy or I want to get in agroup like this, or my brother
or my loved one would benefitfrom this, how can they get
started?
Get?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
on the mark, but nickel socials and have a look
at the links.
Any individual who wants to gothrough the program, there's a
monthly subscription.
But if somebody can't affordthat monthly subscription
although it is quite low I mean,it's only a couple of coffees
but if, for whatever reason,somebody was not able to afford
that subscription, if theymessage the email address on the
(29:51):
link then they will get a freeaccess, because the people who
can pay pay for the people whocan't pay.
And then, when it comes to thegroup sessions, there is a link
to a subscription forindividuals to go through the
induction and training so thatthey can deliver their own
groups, because the reality isthat you probably won't have a
(30:13):
group local.
So if you don't have a grouplocal, then we would encourage
you to set up your own group andagain, if the subscription fee
was a barrier to you doing that,then you will get a free
subscription because the peoplewho can pay for it pay for the
people who can't.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
You know, Mark, I can tell you've had some lived
experience with addiction inyour life.
Because you care, I'm the Mark.
I can tell you've had somelived experience with addiction
in your life.
Because you care, I'm the sameway Like if you can't pay, we'll
make it work.
Well, I got to say, Mark, as Icame into this not knowing what
to expect, and you have totallygiven me lots to think about.
And research reminds me of apodcast episode I did a few
weeks ago with a woman Actually,I bought her book where she
(30:54):
finally got sober when shelearned to identify her inner
critic and identify positiveself-talk.
And it's just a different wayto think of the inner critic and
the inner mentor.
So I have to say thank you somuch for coming on my podcast.
I'll put some of the links toyour work in the show notes and
thank you for what you do.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Thank you for having me along, because if it wasn't
for people like you, Caseypeople like me couldn't get the
word out.
So thank you for what you do.
Thank you for having me along,because if it wasn't for people
like you, Casey people like mecouldn't get the word out.
So thank you for your work.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Before we wrap up, a huge thank you to the Montage
Health Foundation for backing mymission to create fun, engaging
education on addiction, and ashout out to the non-profit
Central Coast OverdosePrevention for teaming up with
me on this podcast.
Our partnership helps me getthe word out about how to treat
addiction and prevent overdosesTo those healthcare providers
(31:46):
out there treating patients withaddiction.
You're doing life-saving workand thank you for what you do
For everyone else tuning in.
Thank you for taking the timeto learn about addiction.
It's a fight we cannot winwithout awareness and action.
There's still so much we can doto improve how addiction is
treated.
Together we can make it happen.
Thanks for listening andremember treating addiction
(32:09):
saves lives you.
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