May 12, 2025 • 29 mins
Tom Barnum, former Michigan State linebacker and NFL player, shares his remarkable journey from addiction to finding joy in sobriety through his team-based approach to recovery.
He is the author of the book "Sobriety is a Team Sport"
We discuss:
• Addiction recovery requires admitting the problem is beyond personal control
• Tom identifies the three paths for people with addiction: sobriety, jail, or death
• AA meetings provide essential human connection that helps rewire the brain's dopamine system
• Forced sobriety through court mandates or fear tactics rarely works long-term
• Recovery groups create unique bonds between people who might otherwise never connect
• Non-alcoholic beverages can be safely incorporated into recovery for some individuals
• Even after decades of sobriety, addiction triggers can unexpectedly surface
• Tom's recovery team includes his wife of 56 years, family, physicians, and former teammates
• Social media has played a positive role in maintaining Tom's recovery connections
Find Tom's book "Sobriety is a Team Sport" on Barnes & Noble or Amazon.
To contact Dr. Grover: ammadeeasy@fastmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy
Podcast.
Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover,an addiction medicine doctor
based on California's CentralCoast.
(00:22):
For 14 years I worked in theemergency department, seeing
countless patients strugglingwith addiction.
Now I'm on the other side ofthe fight, helping people
rebuild their lives when drugsand alcohol take control.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get started.
Today.
I am very pleased to beinterviewing Tom Barnum.
(00:44):
I tell my patients all the timethat treating addiction is a
team sport, and the reason I aminterviewing Tom on the podcast
is because he wrote a bookcalled Sobriety is a Team Sport.
Tom is a former Michigan Statelinebacker who went on to play
in the NFL and we are going totalk today about how he got
(01:06):
sober and how he has a team tohelp him stay sober and the role
of teams in treating addiction.
We will also discuss howAlcoholics Anonymous meetings
help people stay sober and getsober in the first place.
A few clarifications and thenwe'll get started.
First, tom had a question for meabout treating addiction with
medication.
(01:26):
We specifically discussed themedication disulfiram, also
known as Antabuse.
The way the interview went, itsounded like they were different
medications, so I want toclarify that they are the same
medication.
Antabuse is the brand name anddisulfiram is the generic name.
And second Tom referenced amovie called North Dallas 40.
(01:48):
He and I discussed it before westarted the recording and I
hadn't heard of it.
It's based on a book of thesame title and exposes the wild
and decadent lifestyle ofprofessional football players.
And with that here we go.
And with that here we go.
All right, well, I am so gladto have you on my podcast.
(02:09):
I was just telling you, I sayall the time that treating
addiction is a team sport andyou wrote a book about it.
So why don't you tell me whoyou are and what you do?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, I am a.
I'm a retired educator and aretired linebacker, so I spend
my time now.
I lived in Michigan for like 70years and then three or four
years ago we moved over.
We live near the Twin Citiesnow.
My daughter is a physician overhere and I've got a couple of
young grandsons.
(02:39):
So my wife and I build a littlehouse across the road from her
farm and we spent all our timespoiling grandkids, traveling
and hitting the golf ball.
I, as I say, was an oldlinebacker.
I played college football atMichigan State and then I was in
the NFL with two differentSuper Bowl teams.
(03:00):
So my first experience was withthe 72 Dolphins and then the
following year was with theVikings, who ended up playing
the Dolphins the following yearin the Super Bowl.
But my playing career wasactually limited to training
camps and exhibition games andthat sort of thing.
So I then went into coachingand taught high school math and
(03:25):
had a small carpenter businessand I've done a lot of things.
Anyways, when I first learnedabout sobriety?
Well, when I first learnedabout alcoholism let me back up
a little bit 1984, I got a drunkdriving ticket.
In 1984, I got a drunk drivingticket and I had been a pretty
(03:46):
lousy parent and husband forseveral years leading up to that
.
My wife gave me an ultimatumthat I needed to do something
about my drinking, or she andthe girls were going to be
leaving.
So I realized that it was timeto hit the door.
Anyway, I went into a treatmentcenter for 30 days and then I
(04:08):
started going to AA for Mondaynight meetings in the basement
of an old Greek Orthodox church,and I didn't drink, but I
certainly was not sober.
I was in treatment we callourselves dry drunks and I spent
about 20 years as a dry drunk.
I just didn't get it.
(04:29):
I couldn't understand why theseold people were so happy in
their sobriety and I didn'tcatch on.
Ultimately, I developed anotherbad habit.
I played blackjack and decidedthat I knew how to win at
blackjack and wasn't smartenough to leave the table when I
was up.
And my addiction to gamblingput me on the right path for
(04:53):
understanding mindfulness andliving in the present.
And that, in combination with,I started studying Buddhism
Buddhism At the time I was anold Presbyterian and the
Christian thing.
I was having a hard time withsome of the stories and this and
(05:13):
that.
And in AA they fight.
The Christians and thenon-Christians battle all the
time in Alcoholics Anonymousmeetings all over the country.
That's been an ongoing fightfor 90 years.
And's still the same and wehave to learn to work with that.
But ultimately I learned tolive in the moment.
I learned some things aboutcontrolling my breath and my
(05:36):
emotions and and things likethat, and in the past several
years I've I've had a prettygood life and I spent a fair
amount of time helping peoplewith their sobriety.
I'm happier now than I've everbeen in my entire life and it's
worked for me and I try tospread the message.
So that prompted the book.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So your book is called Sobriety as a Team Sport.
What's the story behind thebook?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yes, Well, actually, actually, that my my pen name
still Tom came before, camebefore the book title itself and
one of the things that welearned in recovery.
There's two very importantthings that have to be mastered
right off the get go.
Number one uh, an unhealthy wayof dealing with desire, which
(06:27):
leads to craving, and then theinability to handle craving,
which then turns to addiction.
Once an addictive behavior orpattern has developed, the
person themselves has zerochance of changing that behavior
.
They must admit that it's outof their control and find some
(06:53):
sort of a resource that's goingto allow them to learn about
addiction and to discoversobriety and to have a chance to
be happy.
In group meetings we talk aboutpeople who are addicted have
three paths One is to get sober,one is to go to jail and one is
to die.
(07:14):
Well, it starts out.
You learn that you have to findsobriety, and then those of us
who have managed to find a happysobriety understand that being
sober is better than chasing abuzz, even the minor buzz that
(07:34):
we thought we were going afterwhen we were younger.
Being a happy, sober person tome is far better than having a
little buzz.
So I think that it wasinteresting.
I've looked at some of yourpodcasts and understand.
I understand that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but myunderstanding is that you
(07:58):
assist people who are addictedby prescribing the proper
chemical that helps them to weanthemselves off off, and I'm
fascinated by that because Ithink that's very important.
(08:19):
But I don't want to argue withyou.
But that's minimizingdiscomfort but it is far from
putting people on a path in theright direction.
Is that something that you havethought about or dispute or
have ideas about?
Speaker 1 (08:37):
have thought about or dispute or have ideas about.
So essentially my specialty isaddiction medicine and that
second word, medicine,references what I'm good at,
which is prescribing medications.
That being said, in the way Ilook at addiction, there's three
basic treatments there'smedications, there's group
meetings and then there's someform of therapy.
And a lot of times I'm in aposition where it's not the
medicine that's the problem.
(08:58):
I'll give you an example Forone of my patients who's
homeless, I cannot prescribe ahome.
I can't address that aspect ofhis life.
He's depressed, upset and,being homeless, he feels
horrible and people around himuse, and so he uses with them.
So I can prescribe all the medsI want, but I can't fix the
(09:21):
fact that he's unhoused andliving with other people who use
.
In other words, the medicinehas a time and a place, but it's
not always the focus, and Imake this joke all the time.
If someone told me, dr Grover,when I put mayonnaise on my left
ear, I'm sober, I'm going to goto Safeway and buy them some
(09:42):
mayonnaise.
In other words, I look at itthat each of us has a different
path to sobriety and I want tosupport whoever needs what in
what capacity, and I think thereason there may be some
misperceptions about what I dowith the medicine is sometimes
it's understanding their mentalhealth diagnoses, whether it's a
(10:05):
life of trauma, whether it's achemical imbalance like the
bipolar disorder.
But if you can imagine, if yourbrain is distracted by these
mental health symptoms, it'sreally hard to do the recovery
work, like if you're constantlydistracted in an AA meeting
because of your ADHD.
I need your brain to workbetter so you can do the
recovery work.
I need you to get through stepfour.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
That makes perfect sense to me and that's one of
the reasons that I wanted totalk to you today.
Aa is 90 years old, okay, sothere's a lot of things that, in
my opinion, have run theircourse.
And so if somebody tells methat all I have to do is turn my
(10:48):
life over to a higher power andcome to these meetings and sit
and listen and I stay sober, Isay congratulations and good for
you, and the same way thatyou're looking at if I put
mayonnaise on my ear and I nolonger have the desire to drink,
good for me.
That makes perfect sense andit's far better than to feel as
(11:13):
though we have to be right.
That's another problem, in myopinion, is there's so many
similarities in alcoholicpersonalities.
There's usually a deep-rootedinferiority complex.
There's anger that pops up andis always close to the surface.
(11:35):
There's so many things.
There's having to be right.
You know we expect to win everysingle argument.
There's a reason that abouttwice the number of military
families experience alcoholismbecause when you, when you
realize number one, that youhave to surrender the military,
(12:01):
people don't want to surrender.
People who are macho don't wantto surrender, but they have to
learn that it takes courage tosurrender.
That doesn't fit.
That doesn't fit, that doesn'tfit our thinking, and it's a
very critical element of havingan opportunity to follow a path
(12:23):
that leads to sobriety and happy, peaceful, mindful living.
I was curious.
I had another question for you.
If you don't mind, I canremember when I first got sober,
the only drug that was given toalcoholics was called Anabuse.
Do they still have that?
Is that still a thing or not?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
and it makes people sick violently sick, if they
drink, and the studies havelargely shown that it doesn't
work, because if people want todrink, they know they can not
take it and then they can, theycan just drink.
I have a very, very smallnumber of patients that take it
and it's really when coming backto your book title, they have a
team around them.
Back to your book title, theyhave a team around them, meaning
(13:16):
that it's around accountabilityand someone to really support
them.
So one of my patients is on it.
He's on the last legs with hisfamily of it's get sober or
you're going to live somewhereelse.
And every morning the wholefamily gathers, they all support
him and he takes his disulfiramor antibus and then they know
that he's really not able todrink for that day and then they
(13:38):
come back together again andthey support him in taking it.
And that's really the onlycircumstance that we use
disulfiram or antibus is whenthere is a lot of family support
, just because otherwise peoplewon't take it.
And I think for me the desireto drink is complicated and the
fear of consequences is notenough to deter people.
(14:00):
So it's really a combinationfor disulfiram of the carrot and
the stick.
Right the stick is you'll getsick, but the carrot is that
your family supports you, and Isay all the time that treating
addiction is a team sport and sowith that particular medication
I will really only offer it ifsomeone has a lot of family
(14:21):
support.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
That makes perfect sense.
I can understand thatcompletely.
You get a drunk driving or twoand the judge takes your
driver's license away and thendecides that you are going to be
on a tether, or you have toblow in something to start your
car, or, in some extreme cases,you flat out have to prove your
(14:44):
sobriety on a daily basis ortwice a day basis, and it never,
ever, ever works.
You can't scare people intostopping their behavior.
You are correct.
I feel sorry for judges.
Really, that's all they got.
They can tell people they haveto go to meetings and sign in
and bring the thing back totheir caseworker and that sort
(15:07):
of thing, but the fact of thematter is forced sobriety does
not work.
We have to have as you say andas I say, you have to have a
team.
And one of the things that Ifind in group is, if you find a
group that you're comfortablewith, it's incredible the
dynamics, the dynamics insobriety groups.
(15:30):
You discuss things, you becomecloser with people in sobriety
groups than family members orfriends or neighbors.
It's a very bizarre dynamicwhere people who normally
wouldn't have anything to dowith each other are drawn
together around this table.
There is one alcoholic group.
(15:51):
That refers to their higherpower as a group of drunks, and
the people that they sit aroundthe table with is their group of
drunks and their higher power.
There's an element of peoplethat get sober, and with people
like that, oftentimes thepre-meeting and the post-meeting
will have more of an effect onthe person than the meeting
(16:13):
itself.
I find that a good meeting isgoing to have an equal portion
of laughing and crying both, andthe emotions are honest.
The other thing that I thinkmaybe has run its course with
Alcoholics Anonymous is the wordanonymous was put in back at
(16:33):
the beginning, as though there'sa stigma.
Somehow you need to feelembarrassed that you are
addicted.
There's a feeling that you haveto be embarrassed.
I understand that sometimespeople's jobs are on the line in
terms of get sober and loseyour job, and so you know that
(16:55):
portion becomes very important.
But the fact that anonymity iskind of forced on people who
attend Alcoholics Anonymous Ifight that all the time.
That's where the pen name forthis book came still top.
When I go to an alcoholic'smeeting, the typical way that
you would introduce yourself isHi, my name is Tom, I'm an
(17:16):
alcoholic, or Hi, my name is Tomand I'm an addict For years.
When I go to a meeting, Iintroduce myself as I'm still
Tom.
I'm going to be an alcoholicwhen I die and I've had years of
sobriety.
I count my sober life asbeginning when I stopped playing
blackjack and that was in 2005.
(17:41):
So I am coming up here on 20years of sobriety, even though
I've got more time than thatsince I had a drink.
It's too bad that you are notfamiliar with North Dallas 40,
because that had to do with NFLplayers and steroids.
We used to have a saying in theNFL the bigger they are, the
(18:04):
bigger the pill, and teamphysicians inscribed speed Team
physicians would give youdowners because after you got
too hopped up on the speed and agood team doctor was every bit
as much a chemist as he was aphysician.
So that part of it going alongwith the partying type of a
(18:26):
lifestyle and that sort of thingjust caused a very large number
of people to be off the hook.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I have learned quite a bit about addiction in
professional athletes.
It's, unfortunately, a lot morecommon than I was aware of.
I met a former NFL player whospoke at an event we did locally
and he got sober with AA and hetalked about drinking during
halftime and blackout periods ofdrinking the night before and
waking up still intoxicated andgo into the game, and I found
(18:57):
some interesting podcasts onaddiction at that level.
There are a few NFL playersthat are open about their
sobriety from alcohol and thenprescription opioids.
Obviously there are some badcases of just give them more
opioids you got to keep playing,leading to some pretty bad
consequences.
So it's interesting We'vetalked now about when you have a
good team like AA supportingyou, you can get sober, and when
(19:20):
you've got a not so good team,with people who are using around
you, it's hard to stay sober.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, Exactly and even with the idea of
prescription medicine comingfrom physicians.
I've heard a joke before thathas to do with prescribed
medicine where they said if theycame up with a chemical that
could cure alcoholics fromdrinking by only taking one a
(19:48):
day, alcoholics are going totake two.
That's just the way that it is.
If one is good, two is better.
Simple as that.
We don't know what one is.
It's like me trying to eat onecookie.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the science
behind why AA meetings can workand why having a good team is so
helpful.
So the chemical that makes usfeel good is called dopamine.
It's the chemical that we'velearned over thousands of years
helps us to do things that areassociated with survival for the
(20:29):
long term.
Right, so the short term, ourfirst response is to ensure that
we're safe.
If our fight or flight responselooks around and there's no
danger, we take a deep breathand then our brain motivates us
to do things that are associatedwith long-term survival, namely
food, sex and human connection.
Right, we needed a village toprotect us.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And the idea is is that when we develop an
addiction, it's through thatdopamine system breaking.
People consume alcohol,cannabis, cocaine, whatever, and
the dopamine goes off thecharts beyond normal levels and
eventually people forget whatgood human connection feels like
because they've broken theirdopamine system through gambling
(21:11):
, pornography, alcohol, whatever.
And part of an AA meeting isyou go and there's good human
connection that's dopamine.
You feel accepted, that'sdopamine.
And then it's like you said,it's more than the meeting.
It's catching up with peoplebefore the meeting that's
(21:32):
dopamine.
The meeting itself getting yourchips oh my gosh, I'm 30 days
sober and people clap that'sdopamine.
And then the socializingafterwards as well, and then
being told we want you to comeback, downplay any of the great
work that AA does.
But when I look at AA as adoctor, I think about the
(21:53):
chemical behind it, which isessentially it teaches people
how to enjoy human connectionagain and it helps to retrain
their dopamine system to workbetter.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
That makes very good sense.
I would tell you that I have apersonal experience with years
ago.
Years ago, when non-alcoholicbeer first came out, the
prevalent attitude was wait andsee.
But this is scary.
(22:25):
It's too much like the behaviorthat we had that we enjoyed,
and if we begin drinkingnon-alcoholic beer we perhaps
are going to enjoy it too muchand it's going to cause a slip.
So there was two rules in earlysobriety.
Number one is that you don'tconsume non-alcoholic beer and
(22:46):
you don't begin a romanticrelationship too early into your
into your sobriety.
Well, that that has kind ofplayed itself out and I, I, I
started drinking non-alcoholicbeer back when it was horrible,
the old O'Doul's and Sharps, andit was just God awful stuff.
Well, as the as the better IPAsand better beers have come out,
(23:12):
we now have a pretty goodtasting non-alcoholic beer and I
do drink non-alcoholic beer andI don't have a problem with it.
I can drink one or two and I'vedone it that way, and I've done
it that way for years.
And sometimes if I go out Ijust drink water.
Way, and I've done it that wayfor years.
(23:32):
And sometimes if I go out Ijust drink water.
And so I stand at the positionwhere it is okay as long as it
doesn't create a problem.
You know, we've had too manytimes when we change geography
and we change what we drink andwe change when we drink and
things like that, and thatalways leads you to going off
the rails.
So, fortunately for me and fora few people that I know, the
(23:55):
non-alcoholic beverages haveworked.
Now I have an exception to thatthat I am involved with and
that's the CBD stuff.
My wife and my daughters drinkthe CBD beverages.
Some don't have THC, some dohave THC, and the amount of THC
(24:24):
varies greatly in these drinks.
I'm scared to try them.
I understand that I drank foryears because I was trying to
capture a feeling, and the lastthing I want to risk is trying
to capture a feeling by drinkinga CBD beverage, and so I'm too
(24:48):
scared to try it and I'm notgoing to.
It's as simple as that.
I'll stop and buy it for mywife and daughters, but I'm not
going to drink it With THC.
Without THC, it doesn't mattera bit.
I would also share a story frommy personal experience that
(25:10):
happened just a month or so ago.
I had an old molar that had aroot canal in it and the root
canal was kind of old and thetooth went bad and I had to have
the tooth taken out.
Well, I can remember in myyounger years I wouldn't even
(25:31):
think of having my teeth cleanedwithout having laughing gas.
Oh, I just, I loved laughinggas.
Okay, now, prior to, you know,getting getting my jaw drilled
with the, drilled with theNovocaine.
I knew that I was going to begetting laughing gas and the
(25:56):
memories started coming back tothe point that I can remember
sitting in the chair waiting forthe girl to put the mask on my
face.
She's at her computer and Istart to get impatient.
What the hell you got to do allthat stuff?
Get that mask on my face.
(26:18):
Now I'm talking as someone withdecades of sobriety and that
feeling hit me just a month orso ago.
So I'm still an alcoholic, I'mstill addicted, I'm smarter than
I was, but we're never cured.
(26:41):
We're only on the right path,but it's easy to fall off a path
and we just have to be aware.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Well, I was going to say, unfortunately we have to
wrap up, but I am really excitedto read your book and I will
probably start handing it out tomy patients because I keep
telling them getting sober is ateam sport.
Let's wrap up with telling uswho's on your team right now.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
My team is my wife, who has stayed with me for 56
years, and my family who doesthe same.
I have a couple of physicianswho direct people in the path of
attempting to find sobriety.
I've got old teammates fromMichigan State that I stay in
(27:27):
regular contact with.
Facebook is perfect.
Social media is bad forpolitics because I get sucked
into that, but there are goodthings, and Facebook and
Instagram and things like thatare very good about sharing.
So my Facebook friends are onmy team.
There's a lot of people fromHazleton live here in this area,
(27:51):
yep, and so I've got I've got astrong team with them and and
I'm starting to do the do thepodcast things on a on a more
regular basis.
Again, the book it's sobrietyas a team sport, and there's a
couple of stores that got it,but mostly the easiest way is
Barnes and Noble or Amazon.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
So it's worth the read Well said Before we wrap up
, a huge thank you to theMontage Health Foundation for
backing my mission to create fun, engaging education on
addiction, and a shout out tothe nonprofit Central Coast
Overdose Prevention for teamingup with me on this podcast.
(28:29):
Our partnership helps me getthe word out about how to treat
addiction and prevent overdosesTo those healthcare providers
out there treating patients withaddiction.
You're doing life-saving workand thank you for what you do
For everyone else tuning in.
Thank you for taking the timeto learn about addiction.
It's a fight we cannot winwithout awareness and action.
(28:50):
There's still so much we can doto improve how addiction is
treated.
Together we can make it happen.
Thanks for listening andremember treating addiction
saves lives.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Bye.
Welcome to the Addiction Medicine Made Easy
Podcast.
Hey there, I'm Dr Casey Grover,an addiction medicine doctor
based on California's CentralCoast.
(00:22):
For 14 years I worked in theemergency department, seeing
countless patients strugglingwith addiction.
Now I'm on the other side ofthe fight, helping people
rebuild their lives when drugsand alcohol take control.
Thanks for tuning in.
Let's get started.
Today.
I am very pleased to beinterviewing Tom Barnum.
(00:44):
I tell my patients all the timethat treating addiction is a
team sport, and the reason I aminterviewing Tom on the podcast
is because he wrote a bookcalled Sobriety is a Team Sport.
Tom is a former Michigan Statelinebacker who went on to play
in the NFL and we are going totalk today about how he got
(01:06):
sober and how he has a team tohelp him stay sober and the role
of teams in treating addiction.
We will also discuss howAlcoholics Anonymous meetings
help people stay sober and getsober in the first place.
A few clarifications and thenwe'll get started.
First, tom had a question for meabout treating addiction with
medication.
(01:26):
We specifically discussed themedication disulfiram, also
known as Antabuse.
The way the interview went, itsounded like they were different
medications, so I want toclarify that they are the same
medication.
Antabuse is the brand name anddisulfiram is the generic name.
And second Tom referenced amovie called North Dallas 40.
(01:48):
He and I discussed it before westarted the recording and I
hadn't heard of it.
It's based on a book of thesame title and exposes the wild
and decadent lifestyle ofprofessional football players.
And with that here we go.
And with that here we go.
All right, well, I am so gladto have you on my podcast.
(02:09):
I was just telling you, I sayall the time that treating
addiction is a team sport andyou wrote a book about it.
So why don't you tell me whoyou are and what you do?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, I am a.
I'm a retired educator and aretired linebacker, so I spend
my time now.
I lived in Michigan for like 70years and then three or four
years ago we moved over.
We live near the Twin Citiesnow.
My daughter is a physician overhere and I've got a couple of
young grandsons.
(02:39):
So my wife and I build a littlehouse across the road from her
farm and we spent all our timespoiling grandkids, traveling
and hitting the golf ball.
I, as I say, was an oldlinebacker.
I played college football atMichigan State and then I was in
the NFL with two differentSuper Bowl teams.
(03:00):
So my first experience was withthe 72 Dolphins and then the
following year was with theVikings, who ended up playing
the Dolphins the following yearin the Super Bowl.
But my playing career wasactually limited to training
camps and exhibition games andthat sort of thing.
So I then went into coachingand taught high school math and
(03:25):
had a small carpenter businessand I've done a lot of things.
Anyways, when I first learnedabout sobriety?
Well, when I first learnedabout alcoholism let me back up
a little bit 1984, I got a drunkdriving ticket.
In 1984, I got a drunk drivingticket and I had been a pretty
(03:46):
lousy parent and husband forseveral years leading up to that
.
My wife gave me an ultimatumthat I needed to do something
about my drinking, or she andthe girls were going to be
leaving.
So I realized that it was timeto hit the door.
Anyway, I went into a treatmentcenter for 30 days and then I
(04:08):
started going to AA for Mondaynight meetings in the basement
of an old Greek Orthodox church,and I didn't drink, but I
certainly was not sober.
I was in treatment we callourselves dry drunks and I spent
about 20 years as a dry drunk.
I just didn't get it.
(04:29):
I couldn't understand why theseold people were so happy in
their sobriety and I didn'tcatch on.
Ultimately, I developed anotherbad habit.
I played blackjack and decidedthat I knew how to win at
blackjack and wasn't smartenough to leave the table when I
was up.
And my addiction to gamblingput me on the right path for
(04:53):
understanding mindfulness andliving in the present.
And that, in combination with,I started studying Buddhism
Buddhism At the time I was anold Presbyterian and the
Christian thing.
I was having a hard time withsome of the stories and this and
(05:13):
that.
And in AA they fight.
The Christians and thenon-Christians battle all the
time in Alcoholics Anonymousmeetings all over the country.
That's been an ongoing fightfor 90 years.
And's still the same and wehave to learn to work with that.
But ultimately I learned tolive in the moment.
I learned some things aboutcontrolling my breath and my
(05:36):
emotions and and things likethat, and in the past several
years I've I've had a prettygood life and I spent a fair
amount of time helping peoplewith their sobriety.
I'm happier now than I've everbeen in my entire life and it's
worked for me and I try tospread the message.
So that prompted the book.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
So your book is called Sobriety as a Team Sport.
What's the story behind thebook?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yes, Well, actually, actually, that my my pen name
still Tom came before, camebefore the book title itself and
one of the things that welearned in recovery.
There's two very importantthings that have to be mastered
right off the get go.
Number one uh, an unhealthy wayof dealing with desire, which
(06:27):
leads to craving, and then theinability to handle craving,
which then turns to addiction.
Once an addictive behavior orpattern has developed, the
person themselves has zerochance of changing that behavior
.
They must admit that it's outof their control and find some
(06:53):
sort of a resource that's goingto allow them to learn about
addiction and to discoversobriety and to have a chance to
be happy.
In group meetings we talk aboutpeople who are addicted have
three paths One is to get sober,one is to go to jail and one is
to die.
(07:14):
Well, it starts out.
You learn that you have to findsobriety, and then those of us
who have managed to find a happysobriety understand that being
sober is better than chasing abuzz, even the minor buzz that
(07:34):
we thought we were going afterwhen we were younger.
Being a happy, sober person tome is far better than having a
little buzz.
So I think that it wasinteresting.
I've looked at some of yourpodcasts and understand.
I understand that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but myunderstanding is that you
(07:58):
assist people who are addictedby prescribing the proper
chemical that helps them to weanthemselves off off, and I'm
fascinated by that because Ithink that's very important.
(08:19):
But I don't want to argue withyou.
But that's minimizingdiscomfort but it is far from
putting people on a path in theright direction.
Is that something that you havethought about or dispute or
have ideas about?
Speaker 1 (08:37):
have thought about or dispute or have ideas about.
So essentially my specialty isaddiction medicine and that
second word, medicine,references what I'm good at,
which is prescribing medications.
That being said, in the way Ilook at addiction, there's three
basic treatments there'smedications, there's group
meetings and then there's someform of therapy.
And a lot of times I'm in aposition where it's not the
medicine that's the problem.
(08:58):
I'll give you an example Forone of my patients who's
homeless, I cannot prescribe ahome.
I can't address that aspect ofhis life.
He's depressed, upset and,being homeless, he feels
horrible and people around himuse, and so he uses with them.
So I can prescribe all the medsI want, but I can't fix the
(09:21):
fact that he's unhoused andliving with other people who use
.
In other words, the medicinehas a time and a place, but it's
not always the focus, and Imake this joke all the time.
If someone told me, dr Grover,when I put mayonnaise on my left
ear, I'm sober, I'm going to goto Safeway and buy them some
(09:42):
mayonnaise.
In other words, I look at itthat each of us has a different
path to sobriety and I want tosupport whoever needs what in
what capacity, and I think thereason there may be some
misperceptions about what I dowith the medicine is sometimes
it's understanding their mentalhealth diagnoses, whether it's a
(10:05):
life of trauma, whether it's achemical imbalance like the
bipolar disorder.
But if you can imagine, if yourbrain is distracted by these
mental health symptoms, it'sreally hard to do the recovery
work, like if you're constantlydistracted in an AA meeting
because of your ADHD.
I need your brain to workbetter so you can do the
recovery work.
I need you to get through stepfour.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
That makes perfect sense to me and that's one of
the reasons that I wanted totalk to you today.
Aa is 90 years old, okay, sothere's a lot of things that, in
my opinion, have run theircourse.
And so if somebody tells methat all I have to do is turn my
(10:48):
life over to a higher power andcome to these meetings and sit
and listen and I stay sober, Isay congratulations and good for
you, and the same way thatyou're looking at if I put
mayonnaise on my ear and I nolonger have the desire to drink,
good for me.
That makes perfect sense andit's far better than to feel as
(11:13):
though we have to be right.
That's another problem, in myopinion, is there's so many
similarities in alcoholicpersonalities.
There's usually a deep-rootedinferiority complex.
There's anger that pops up andis always close to the surface.
(11:35):
There's so many things.
There's having to be right.
You know we expect to win everysingle argument.
There's a reason that abouttwice the number of military
families experience alcoholismbecause when you, when you
realize number one, that youhave to surrender the military,
(12:01):
people don't want to surrender.
People who are macho don't wantto surrender, but they have to
learn that it takes courage tosurrender.
That doesn't fit.
That doesn't fit, that doesn'tfit our thinking, and it's a
very critical element of havingan opportunity to follow a path
(12:23):
that leads to sobriety and happy, peaceful, mindful living.
I was curious.
I had another question for you.
If you don't mind, I canremember when I first got sober,
the only drug that was given toalcoholics was called Anabuse.
Do they still have that?
Is that still a thing or not?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
and it makes people sick violently sick, if they
drink, and the studies havelargely shown that it doesn't
work, because if people want todrink, they know they can not
take it and then they can, theycan just drink.
I have a very, very smallnumber of patients that take it
and it's really when coming backto your book title, they have a
team around them.
Back to your book title, theyhave a team around them, meaning
(13:16):
that it's around accountabilityand someone to really support
them.
So one of my patients is on it.
He's on the last legs with hisfamily of it's get sober or
you're going to live somewhereelse.
And every morning the wholefamily gathers, they all support
him and he takes his disulfiramor antibus and then they know
that he's really not able todrink for that day and then they
(13:38):
come back together again andthey support him in taking it.
And that's really the onlycircumstance that we use
disulfiram or antibus is whenthere is a lot of family support
, just because otherwise peoplewon't take it.
And I think for me the desireto drink is complicated and the
fear of consequences is notenough to deter people.
(14:00):
So it's really a combinationfor disulfiram of the carrot and
the stick.
Right the stick is you'll getsick, but the carrot is that
your family supports you, and Isay all the time that treating
addiction is a team sport and sowith that particular medication
I will really only offer it ifsomeone has a lot of family
(14:21):
support.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
That makes perfect sense.
I can understand thatcompletely.
You get a drunk driving or twoand the judge takes your
driver's license away and thendecides that you are going to be
on a tether, or you have toblow in something to start your
car, or, in some extreme cases,you flat out have to prove your
(14:44):
sobriety on a daily basis ortwice a day basis, and it never,
ever, ever works.
You can't scare people intostopping their behavior.
You are correct.
I feel sorry for judges.
Really, that's all they got.
They can tell people they haveto go to meetings and sign in
and bring the thing back totheir caseworker and that sort
(15:07):
of thing, but the fact of thematter is forced sobriety does
not work.
We have to have as you say andas I say, you have to have a
team.
And one of the things that Ifind in group is, if you find a
group that you're comfortablewith, it's incredible the
dynamics, the dynamics insobriety groups.
(15:30):
You discuss things, you becomecloser with people in sobriety
groups than family members orfriends or neighbors.
It's a very bizarre dynamicwhere people who normally
wouldn't have anything to dowith each other are drawn
together around this table.
There is one alcoholic group.
(15:51):
That refers to their higherpower as a group of drunks, and
the people that they sit aroundthe table with is their group of
drunks and their higher power.
There's an element of peoplethat get sober, and with people
like that, oftentimes thepre-meeting and the post-meeting
will have more of an effect onthe person than the meeting
(16:13):
itself.
I find that a good meeting isgoing to have an equal portion
of laughing and crying both, andthe emotions are honest.
The other thing that I thinkmaybe has run its course with
Alcoholics Anonymous is the wordanonymous was put in back at
(16:33):
the beginning, as though there'sa stigma.
Somehow you need to feelembarrassed that you are
addicted.
There's a feeling that you haveto be embarrassed.
I understand that sometimespeople's jobs are on the line in
terms of get sober and loseyour job, and so you know that
(16:55):
portion becomes very important.
But the fact that anonymity iskind of forced on people who
attend Alcoholics Anonymous Ifight that all the time.
That's where the pen name forthis book came still top.
When I go to an alcoholic'smeeting, the typical way that
you would introduce yourself isHi, my name is Tom, I'm an
(17:16):
alcoholic, or Hi, my name is Tomand I'm an addict For years.
When I go to a meeting, Iintroduce myself as I'm still
Tom.
I'm going to be an alcoholicwhen I die and I've had years of
sobriety.
I count my sober life asbeginning when I stopped playing
blackjack and that was in 2005.
(17:41):
So I am coming up here on 20years of sobriety, even though
I've got more time than thatsince I had a drink.
It's too bad that you are notfamiliar with North Dallas 40,
because that had to do with NFLplayers and steroids.
We used to have a saying in theNFL the bigger they are, the
(18:04):
bigger the pill, and teamphysicians inscribed speed Team
physicians would give youdowners because after you got
too hopped up on the speed and agood team doctor was every bit
as much a chemist as he was aphysician.
So that part of it going alongwith the partying type of a
(18:26):
lifestyle and that sort of thingjust caused a very large number
of people to be off the hook.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
I have learned quite a bit about addiction in
professional athletes.
It's, unfortunately, a lot morecommon than I was aware of.
I met a former NFL player whospoke at an event we did locally
and he got sober with AA and hetalked about drinking during
halftime and blackout periods ofdrinking the night before and
waking up still intoxicated andgo into the game, and I found
(18:57):
some interesting podcasts onaddiction at that level.
There are a few NFL playersthat are open about their
sobriety from alcohol and thenprescription opioids.
Obviously there are some badcases of just give them more
opioids you got to keep playing,leading to some pretty bad
consequences.
So it's interesting We'vetalked now about when you have a
good team like AA supportingyou, you can get sober, and when
(19:20):
you've got a not so good team,with people who are using around
you, it's hard to stay sober.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, Exactly and even with the idea of
prescription medicine comingfrom physicians.
I've heard a joke before thathas to do with prescribed
medicine where they said if theycame up with a chemical that
could cure alcoholics fromdrinking by only taking one a
(19:48):
day, alcoholics are going totake two.
That's just the way that it is.
If one is good, two is better.
Simple as that.
We don't know what one is.
It's like me trying to eat onecookie.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about the science
behind why AA meetings can workand why having a good team is so
helpful.
So the chemical that makes usfeel good is called dopamine.
It's the chemical that we'velearned over thousands of years
helps us to do things that areassociated with survival for the
(20:29):
long term.
Right, so the short term, ourfirst response is to ensure that
we're safe.
If our fight or flight responselooks around and there's no
danger, we take a deep breathand then our brain motivates us
to do things that are associatedwith long-term survival, namely
food, sex and human connection.
Right, we needed a village toprotect us.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And the idea is is that when we develop an
addiction, it's through thatdopamine system breaking.
People consume alcohol,cannabis, cocaine, whatever, and
the dopamine goes off thecharts beyond normal levels and
eventually people forget whatgood human connection feels like
because they've broken theirdopamine system through gambling
(21:11):
, pornography, alcohol, whatever.
And part of an AA meeting isyou go and there's good human
connection that's dopamine.
You feel accepted, that'sdopamine.
And then it's like you said,it's more than the meeting.
It's catching up with peoplebefore the meeting that's
(21:32):
dopamine.
The meeting itself getting yourchips oh my gosh, I'm 30 days
sober and people clap that'sdopamine.
And then the socializingafterwards as well, and then
being told we want you to comeback, downplay any of the great
work that AA does.
But when I look at AA as adoctor, I think about the
(21:53):
chemical behind it, which isessentially it teaches people
how to enjoy human connectionagain and it helps to retrain
their dopamine system to workbetter.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
That makes very good sense.
I would tell you that I have apersonal experience with years
ago.
Years ago, when non-alcoholicbeer first came out, the
prevalent attitude was wait andsee.
But this is scary.
(22:25):
It's too much like the behaviorthat we had that we enjoyed,
and if we begin drinkingnon-alcoholic beer we perhaps
are going to enjoy it too muchand it's going to cause a slip.
So there was two rules in earlysobriety.
Number one is that you don'tconsume non-alcoholic beer and
(22:46):
you don't begin a romanticrelationship too early into your
into your sobriety.
Well, that that has kind ofplayed itself out and I, I, I
started drinking non-alcoholicbeer back when it was horrible,
the old O'Doul's and Sharps, andit was just God awful stuff.
Well, as the as the better IPAsand better beers have come out,
(23:12):
we now have a pretty goodtasting non-alcoholic beer and I
do drink non-alcoholic beer andI don't have a problem with it.
I can drink one or two and I'vedone it that way, and I've done
it that way for years.
And sometimes if I go out Ijust drink water.
Way, and I've done it that wayfor years.
(23:32):
And sometimes if I go out Ijust drink water.
And so I stand at the positionwhere it is okay as long as it
doesn't create a problem.
You know, we've had too manytimes when we change geography
and we change what we drink andwe change when we drink and
things like that, and thatalways leads you to going off
the rails.
So, fortunately for me and fora few people that I know, the
(23:55):
non-alcoholic beverages haveworked.
Now I have an exception to thatthat I am involved with and
that's the CBD stuff.
My wife and my daughters drinkthe CBD beverages.
Some don't have THC, some dohave THC, and the amount of THC
(24:24):
varies greatly in these drinks.
I'm scared to try them.
I understand that I drank foryears because I was trying to
capture a feeling, and the lastthing I want to risk is trying
to capture a feeling by drinkinga CBD beverage, and so I'm too
(24:48):
scared to try it and I'm notgoing to.
It's as simple as that.
I'll stop and buy it for mywife and daughters, but I'm not
going to drink it With THC.
Without THC, it doesn't mattera bit.
I would also share a story frommy personal experience that
(25:10):
happened just a month or so ago.
I had an old molar that had aroot canal in it and the root
canal was kind of old and thetooth went bad and I had to have
the tooth taken out.
Well, I can remember in myyounger years I wouldn't even
(25:31):
think of having my teeth cleanedwithout having laughing gas.
Oh, I just, I loved laughinggas.
Okay, now, prior to, you know,getting getting my jaw drilled
with the, drilled with theNovocaine.
I knew that I was going to begetting laughing gas and the
(25:56):
memories started coming back tothe point that I can remember
sitting in the chair waiting forthe girl to put the mask on my
face.
She's at her computer and Istart to get impatient.
What the hell you got to do allthat stuff?
Get that mask on my face.
(26:18):
Now I'm talking as someone withdecades of sobriety and that
feeling hit me just a month orso ago.
So I'm still an alcoholic, I'mstill addicted, I'm smarter than
I was, but we're never cured.
(26:41):
We're only on the right path,but it's easy to fall off a path
and we just have to be aware.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Well, I was going to say, unfortunately we have to
wrap up, but I am really excitedto read your book and I will
probably start handing it out tomy patients because I keep
telling them getting sober is ateam sport.
Let's wrap up with telling uswho's on your team right now.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
My team is my wife, who has stayed with me for 56
years, and my family who doesthe same.
I have a couple of physicianswho direct people in the path of
attempting to find sobriety.
I've got old teammates fromMichigan State that I stay in
(27:27):
regular contact with.
Facebook is perfect.
Social media is bad forpolitics because I get sucked
into that, but there are goodthings, and Facebook and
Instagram and things like thatare very good about sharing.
So my Facebook friends are onmy team.
There's a lot of people fromHazleton live here in this area,
(27:51):
yep, and so I've got I've got astrong team with them and and
I'm starting to do the do thepodcast things on a on a more
regular basis.
Again, the book it's sobrietyas a team sport, and there's a
couple of stores that got it,but mostly the easiest way is
Barnes and Noble or Amazon.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
So it's worth the read Well said Before we wrap up
, a huge thank you to theMontage Health Foundation for
backing my mission to create fun, engaging education on
addiction, and a shout out tothe nonprofit Central Coast
Overdose Prevention for teamingup with me on this podcast.
(28:29):
Our partnership helps me getthe word out about how to treat
addiction and prevent overdosesTo those healthcare providers
out there treating patients withaddiction.
You're doing life-saving workand thank you for what you do
For everyone else tuning in.
Thank you for taking the timeto learn about addiction.
It's a fight we cannot winwithout awareness and action.
(28:50):
There's still so much we can doto improve how addiction is
treated.
Together we can make it happen.
Thanks for listening andremember treating addiction
saves lives.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Bye.
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