Episode Transcript
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Isabel Byon (00:00):
The New York State Office of Addiction Services and
Supports, or OASAS, providesthis podcast as a public service
.
Opinions expressed do notnecessarily reflect those of the
agency or state.
This is Addiction (00:12):
The Next Step.
Jerry Gretzinger (00:18):
Hello there, Jerry Gretzinger here.
Your host for Addiction (00:19):
The Next Step.
It's our podcast, brought toyou by the New York State Office
of Addiction Services andSupports.
Today, our episode is going tofocus on, well, 30 years 30
years of work to help those whoare living with problem gambling
, and you know there's been alot that we've been talking
about.
We've had campaigns that we'vebeen undertaking to help people
(00:41):
who maybe are looking forservices or supports or just for
some consultation.
Right, maybe they're concernedthat they're gambling or mobile
sports wagering too much, andthat's part of what's changed.
Right, we talk about mobilesports wagering it's pretty much
everywhere now but we want totalk about where it's come from,
where it is today and how itimpacts everybody here in the
great state of New York.
So, joining us to have thisconversation, we have Jim Maney
(01:05):
from the New York Council onProblem Gambling.
He's the executive directorthere.
Jim, thanks for sitting downwith us.
Jim Maney (01:10):
Thanks for having me.
Jerry Gretzinger (01:11):
And, of course , our own Rebecca Cooper, Bureau
Director for Problem Gamblingwith OASAS.
Thanks, Rebecca, for sittingdown again.
Rebecca Cooper (01:16):
Thanks
Jerry Gretzinger (01:17):
And you're going to be becoming a regular
on the podcast.
Rebecca Cooper (01:19):
Yeah, well, you know, we're going to get someone
else to start talking about it.
Jerry Gretzinger (01:22):
Well as many people as we can right.
Because we have a lot ofconversations we can have,
certainly about addiction ingeneral, but, as I mentioned
today, talking about problemgambling.
So the two of you together, youhave a lot of combined years of
working to help people throughthe issues of problem gambling.
So, Jim, let's start with you.
I mean, how many years have youbeen doing this type of work?
Jim Maney (01:45):
This is my 30th in problem gambling and probably 10
years before that in substanceabuse.
Jerry Gretzinger (01:50):
Wow, All right .
So I mean a lot of time and youhave a good knowledge, my whole
life, your whole life, that'sright.
So, as you see, he's 40, right,you've been 30 and 10 before
that.
So there you go, and Rebecca.
Rebecca Cooper (02:07):
Yeah.
So, 30 years problem gamblingand eight years before that for
substance use.
Jerry Gretzinger (02:09):
So that's why we have you guys sitting down
with us, because this isn't yourfirst rodeo, as they say.
So I want to start with this.
We talk about the changinglandscape of what is gambling
and wagering, and certainly Iwould think one of the top
things that people would thinkabout is mobile sports wagering.
You've got it on every device.
Everywhere you look, thereseems to be another commercial
(02:29):
saying hey, pick up your phone,get on your laptop, place a
wager.
Jim.
Let me ask you to start.
What was the impact of that interms of, you know, the
incidence of problem gambling orthe likelihood that somebody
could then be dealing with that,having that access 24-7.
Jim Maney (02:47):
I have a 22-year-old daughter and her boyfriend is a
member of a frat out in Buffaloand he tells me all the stories
where I get my anecdotalinformation from him.
He has all nine accounts forall the nine licensees in New
York State.
And every one of the boys hasthose and I think the change
(03:07):
would be that he wouldn't havedone illegal gambling, offshore
gambling, he wouldn't have goneto websites.
None of them would have.
But they make it easy, simpleand that's all.
It is availability andaccessibility for it.
And I think the informationcoming from him and what they do
is they they sit, they watch,they bet.
(03:28):
They're not saying he's got agambling problem whatsoever I
don't think most people do buthow simple it is and what a
change that has been.
If we're talking about 30 years, you know, you think about it.
The people we used to see 30years ago were middle class
white men who played the horsesand took about 20 years for them
to develop a problem.
Jerry Gretzinger (03:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And now this accessibility andthe ease of just having it on
your device, Rebecca, what aboutyou?
Rebecca Cooper (03:54):
Yeah, I think you know along the same lines of
what Jim said.
It's just too easy and with theaccessibility and availability
we know, even from a preventionstandpoint, you know people tend
to develop more problems.
So the easier it is, the morelikely it is that someone's
going to develop a problem as aresult of it.
Jerry Gretzinger (04:11):
Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of what
we're here to talk about todaytoo is you know it's legal in
New York State, right?
And so a lot of what we dothrough OASAS is you know,
whether it's substances orwagering or whatnot.
If people are going to do it,we want them to be safe, we want
them to take you know we callit harm reduction, right.
We want you to take the stepsso that it doesn't get out of
control, right?
(04:31):
Do it responsibly, do itappropriately.
So let's talk on that for thetime being.
So, now that there is thisenhanced accessibility and I
don't know how it can be moreaccessible than it is now but
how has that changed in what wecan do to help people?
Because, like you said,somebody could be, you know,
betting on the horses for 20years before they develop what
we consider a problem.
(04:52):
What do we do now to try tohelp people with this?
I can access it 24 hours a day,seven days a week, right at the
tip of my fingers.
How are we trying to helppeople avoid getting into a I
don't know a level of gamblingwhere it gets out of control?
Jim Maney (05:09):
I don't know about answering that question, but it
reminds me when I first started.
Went to do a training at thelabor department.
I knew a man that was workingthere.
I said, Jim, come up and do atalk about problem gambling, be
the first one ever.
And I remember going up thereand it was 12 o'clock lunchtime
and nobody showed up, not oneperson, right?
(05:30):
No big deal.
We said let's try it again nextmonth.
So I go back again next month.
And three women came in and I'mlike, yes, we have three people
that are going to listen to metalk about problem, yeah, but
I'm doing my job, right.
And so we're about to start andthey three got up and said oh,
we were just looking for a placeto have lunch.
(05:51):
So you take a look at that.
And you think your question washow do we do it?
But you take a look at yourpodcast today.
That's how we do it, right.
We do it the same way thatindustry does it, and we don't
take a stand, but they do itgreat, right?
They ping you, they issue theinformation to you, boom, boom,
(06:13):
boom, boom, we just have to doit the same exact way they do,
because how they do it works,and I think we just have to have
the resources to do it the waythey do it, because I think our
folks residents in New Yorkdeserve that and need that
information, and then they canchoose to decide where they want
to go with stuff.
But to answer that, I thinkwe're on the right path of what
(06:37):
we're doing.
We just have to do more of it asmuch as we can.
Jerry Gretzinger (06:39):
I was gonna say you started your response by
saying well, I don't know aboutanswering that question, but
but I think you give a goodanswer to that question because
because you're right, and thatis that is why we try to do this
, because we want to be wherepeople are right.
So if they're listening topodcasts, you know.
If they're on social media, weknow we need to be there as well
.
And so, Rebecca, on that end ofthings, I mean certainly we're
doing what we can to be in thoseplaces.
I don't know if you want totalk about, you know, some of
(07:00):
those efforts and what we'rekind of seeing.
I know one of the things we'redoing right now encourages
people to actively engage withthe survey and the numbers that
we're seeing.
If you want to talk about someof that.
Rebecca Cooper (07:09):
Yeah, and I think you know along the same
lines of what Jim was saying, isthat you know, over time people
are becoming more and moreaware that this potentially
could become a problem.
And I remember, you know, 30years ago, you know, people
would come into the clinic thatwe were working at and they were
very shameful and they werevery sad and it was.
(07:30):
There was a lot of stigmaaround that because nobody
talked about it, nobodyrecognized it as a problem.
It was much more sociallyacceptable.
And so I think, as we haveevolved in, you know, expanding
access, you know advertising,surveys, making people more
aware, even just just havingconversations because that's
(07:53):
where everything starts rightand making it part of a sort of
normal conversation that, hey,yeah, you know, gambling can be
really fun but it can become anaddiction, just like substance
abuse can, and I think thatallows people to feel like
they're a little bit moreconnected and that there's no
shame if they are experiencing aproblem or living with someone
(08:13):
that's having a problem.
Jerry Gretzinger (08:14):
And you know, and I, as you're talking about
that, I was thinking too.
You talked about surveys, andone of the major pushes that we
have right now is we'reencouraging people to take a
survey to see what level they'reat in terms of gambling.
Is it, is it just my you know,for mild entertainment, or is it
rising to a more of aconcerning level?
And I feel, from the resultswe're seeing, that people are
(08:35):
interested to know.
Okay, yeah, where do I land?
So enough people areparticipating often enough where
they have that question wheream I at?
And I think one of the biggestthings we're seeing is the
completion rate of the survey.
Rebecca Cooper (08:50):
And I think that what that tells us is that
people want to know, they wantthat balanced approach.
They want, you know, they wantto understand how the behaviors
that they're exhibiting withtheir gambling like, how do they
keep it sort of in the safelane, how do they prevent it
from becoming a problem?
What does that look like?
And so, by giving them, youknow, what we would call
(09:11):
normative feedback, they take aquick survey, you know, talk
about what their specificgambling behaviors are, and then
they get a very quick normativefeedback on where they are sort
of on the spectrum, and then weprovide additional information
for them to get additionalsupport.
But we want people tounderstand, and I think one of
the other distinct differences,you know, with a gambling
(09:33):
addiction, then substance use,that we see is there's not
always a lot of warning signs.
So, you know, that also combatssome of the identification
issues as well.
And so by creatingopportunities for people to see
where they are, I think thatreally opens up the
opportunities for people toeither, you know, either reduce
their gambling or prevent itfrom getting a problem.
Jerry Gretzinger (09:55):
You just talked about warning signs too,
and, Jim, I'm going to jump backto you now.
You talked about 30 years inproblem gambling and 10 years
before that in addiction.
When we think about warningsigns that people could look for
, we often hear that when itcomes to gambling they can be
really difficult to see Becauseit's not much of an outward I
don't know display of symptomsalways.
(10:16):
But has that changed at allover the past 30 years?
Because, as you said, peopleused to go to the track right.
So if somebody was at the trackevery day, maybe you'd start to
wonder.
Now, with people on theirphones, it's hard to know what
can people look for or whatcould serve as a sign.
Jim Maney (10:33):
Jerry, I've lived in this area my whole life and went
to the track the first time in1973 to see Secretariat run.
I didn't know who Secretariatwas, but I was at that race.
I've never met anybody leavingthe Saratoga race track that has
never said they've lost money,right, They've always broke even
because you could never tell ifthey won or not, or lost.
(10:54):
I think when you talk aboutthese things it reminds me of
you know, back in the day, sincewe're going back 30 years, what
we wanted to do with lotterytickets.
That was a major thing backthen.
It was like why can't we makelottery tickets like
prescription drugs?
You ever see those prescriptiondrugs and all of a sudden they
do a commercial and then for thelast 15 seconds they talk about
the warning signs and what'sgoing to happen heart attacks,
(11:16):
death, this and that.
And I remember my daughter wassaying, Dad, why would anybody
ever take this medication ifthey were going to die?
It doesn't make sense.
So we always wanted the samething on lottery tickets.
All right, buy a lottery ticket, but in case there may be
divorce, suicide, lose yourhouse, lose your family, lose
all these type of things.
(11:37):
And we think the same thing nowfor mobile sports betting.
We see every ad in the worldright, put five dollars up,
we'll give you 150.
And at the beginning, caesarswas given three thousand dollars
away in money.
You know simple bets and Ialways imagine if we could do
that, come to treatment andwe'll give you $150.
(11:57):
Come to treatment, we'll giveyou $3,000.
Our places, our clinics, wouldbe full if we could do it the
same exact way.
So I think Rebecca is perfectlyright.
Raising the awareness is theonly thing we have to do,
because if we do it, by allthese things that we're talking
about, we have a really goodchance, because it will make the
(12:17):
conversation start and themajority of people understand
that it can be an addiction, canbe problematic and, as we know,
this addiction we need each andevery one of us to work on this
.
This is not, you know, in theold days, you got DWI and then
you had to get treatment.
We don't have anything for that, for gambling whatsoever, right
(12:39):
, in fact, this is the hardestone because you're winning
gambling, right, you could bedown $10,000, right, and in the
midst of panic, in the midst ofeverything, and you hit Guess
what, you have no problemsanymore.
That's the big difference, andI think you're raising the
awareness of problem gambling isthe number one thing we can do
and that's why you're doingthese things and all the
(13:01):
information that OASAS is doingis the best thing possible.
Jerry Gretzinger (13:05):
Well, we definitely appreciate hearing
that.
We feel we're doing the rightthing and we just hope the
message is getting to enoughpeople, Jim.
So I'm getting the sense.
You have a lot of good storiesand you're a very good
storyteller, and we often findthat one of the best things you
can do to reach people is toshare a story about someone
who's lived this experienceright, who went through it.
(13:27):
And I'm assuming in your 30years of doing the work you do
now, you've probably encountereda couple of people who had a
story that's probably stuck withyou and I just wasn't sure if
you want to take a minute or cantake a minute to tell us a
story about someone who realizedokay, this is getting out of my
control at this point.
I don't know if I can turn thisaround, but I'm going to try
(13:50):
and maybe did or didn't, but astory that you could share.
Jim Maney (13:58):
That, might, you know , resonate with people at home.
There's a thousand of them, I'msure there are, and you know
every story starts to say thesame Shame, guilt and loss of
money.
Right, and the hardest thing isI think one of the first ones,
and Rebecca and I were both inon this case, one of the first
ones ever a woman came in, aprofessional woman, and she was
going to buy a new car and thesalesperson said you know your
(14:23):
credit card information and sheput her one credit card down and
the man came back and laughedat her.
He said you have to put all 13of yours down.
She says I beg your pardon, Ionly have one credit card.
Well, it turned out her husbandtook out 12 credit cards in her
name and, like a good gambler,got the credit card information
(14:43):
sent to his post office box and,like a good gambler, he paid
off the minimum with the firstcredit to pay the second to pay
a certain credit for it.
And they came into treatmentand she called the helpline and
got to us and I remember onsunday getting a call and saying
come in monday morning brightand early and bring your husband
.
And so they came in mondaymorning and I said when do you
(15:08):
get paid?
And he said Wednesday.
And I said what do you do withthe money?
And he looked right at her andsaid sweetie, if you just let me
gamble one more time, I can getall this money back.
So the first thing he realizedthat he was a pathological
gambler.
He was right in the midst of it, still right, and I remember
(15:29):
that case vividly and we weren'tRebecca and I both worked on
that case individually and thenin couples, and I will say that
that's probably the firstsuccess that I had and we had
together as a couple.
And you thought, okay.
I remember she saying what aremy options?
Well, you can divorce them, youcan arrest them right, or you
(15:55):
can stay with them.
And she's like those aren't thegreatest options, are they
right?
And I remember I think they waslike either 70 something
$80,000, which was a ton ofmoney back then, and I think we
even did the finances.
If he worked the second jobright Back then, you were
probably getting $6 an hour at asecond job at Walmart or
(16:18):
something.
It was going to take him 34years to pay this off.
And as we went throughtreatment the beginning of the
month, every month with her wasvery tough because the bills
were due and she was paying forthem and so we had we, I mean we
had to do suicide allergy,homicide allergy with these
(16:39):
situations because it was andthey were.
They were very, very, very,very hard and the last I know,
success.
So to me that was the first andRebecca can tell more about it.
Rebecca Cooper (16:52):
Yeah, I mean I think I'll go to another story.
Because, Jim gave a greatoverview of that.
But one of the things thatalways stuck with me is it was
pretty early on when we were atthe Center for Problem Gambling
and I remember Jim always had towalk by my office to get to his
and he had a new intake and hewent and got him in the waiting
(17:14):
room and I hear himchit-chatting away in the
hallway and it's a younger guyand Jim does a session and he
comes out and he comes in myoffice and he's like I just got
to tell you about this and I'mlike this intake, I just did.
And I'm like this intake, Ijust did.
I'm like, oh well, what's goingon?
He's like I sat down and theguy, the kid, was like, oh, do
you remember me?
And Jim's like, no, not really.
(17:35):
He's like well, you were mycounselor when I worked at was
hospitality house hope house youwere my counselor when I worked
at hope house five years agoand I had a gambling problem
back then and it got worse.
So are you gonna?
And you never asked me about mygambling when I was in
substance use treatment.
So are you going to help me now?
And I remember we both satthere like oh my gosh.
(17:59):
And that always has stuck withme and as services have evolved
and I never forgot that storyand so I think, as wherever you
go and you know, when I came toOASAS 20 years ago, it's like
that is also so important isthat co-occurring and then
integrating asking thosequestions right, because we know
(18:22):
people that have a substanceuse disorder at higher risk and
vice versa, and just askingthose questions and we do people
a disservice when we weren'tasking those questions in
substance use treatment and nowour outpatient providers have to
screen for it.
And those kinds of things makeall the difference in the world
when we talk about harmreduction and preventative
(18:42):
across the board.
So that's one of my earlierstories with us working together
and it was really we both werelike dumbfounded, like oh my
gosh, we've been in substanceuse treatment.
We never ask these questions.
Jim Maney (18:56):
I can still feel the kick in the gut right now as
Rebecca tells that story.
It was horrible.
It was horrible.
Can you help me now?
I remember the conversationgoing forward and he was clean
and sober from alcohol and drugs, but he did two bits in prison
as a result of his gambling andso it was.
(19:18):
I can feel that today.
So thanks a lot Rebecca.
Rebecca Cooper (19:23):
I remember not a lot of things rattled Jim Maney
, but that did, and we both satthere like, oh my goodness.
Jerry Gretzinger (19:31):
You mentioned that, though, that has become
such a significant focus rightthe co-occurring and you know
you talk about just things thatchange, not just you know what,
what's encouraging people to goout there and participate in
gambling, but also the way youscreen for it when you screen
for it.
So these are all positivechanges that are happening on
that end of things.
And, Rebecca, I've heard youtalk about co-occurring, but I
hadn't heard that story, but soI can.
(19:53):
You know, it kind of gives youa little background as to why
that's so important to you andwhy it's important anyway.
Rebecca Cooper (19:58):
Right.
Jerry Gretzinger (19:58):
Because you never know.
Rebecca Cooper (19:59):
You don't ever know.
Jim Maney (20:01):
And yet we did some really good work back then.
So it's interesting thinkingback.
I mean Rebecca formed the firstsignificant other group in the
country for significant otherproblem gamblers and I mean that
was unbelievable work that weidentified that and we took a
look at that and that grew.
(20:21):
I remember that grewtremendously.
Monday nights.
Yeah, what work we did in that.
So there's a lot of stories, alot of great stories, a lot of
great successes.
You know, I think the greatestthing is when you learn.
You have to learn in the midstof the trenches and that's when
we learn the most.
You know, we know we learn somestuff from books and things
that.
But you learn from the client,you learn from your mistakes,
(20:43):
you learn from what you did notdo and you're going to do it
better next time.
And you know, I think if, if wetake a look at 30 years, the
both of us have growntremendously because we've
listened and we've adapted andwe had the basic thing to care
about, the people that we weresupposed to care about.
Jerry Gretzinger (20:59):
Yeah, yeah, and you know I always talk about
the other folks we'veinterviewed who have come on and
shared their personal stories,their lived experience with
gambling and certainly treatmentand now living in recovery from
it.
And it's, it is, it's, it's a.
It can be a difficult journey,but everybody that we've heard
from has said they're so happythat they had someone who helped
them along the way, becausethey got them to where they are
(21:21):
now.
Rebecca Cooper (21:21):
And I, you know, I really it's a privilege.
I mean, if you think back, and,as you know, we're just sort of
reflecting being able to be apart of that and and and
creating safe spaces for peopleand listening and caring and,
you know, being there to sort ofwalk with them, it's definitely
, it's been a privileged career.
Jim Maney (21:38):
Oh, we're lucky to meet more world to care about
people, because caring aboutpeople makes one happier, makes
one more satisfied.
And so we're very lucky to dothe work we've been chosen to do
.
Jerry Gretzinger (21:50):
Listen, let me ask you both, as we kind of get
ready to close here.
I think sometimes people thinkthat help, services, supports
are there for people who are ata point where I have no other
choice I've already gottenmyself in so deep I don't know
what else to do but I know a lotof what we want to try to do
also is to help people preventgetting to that level.
Giving them we talked about inanother recent podcast episode
(22:15):
the guide rails right.
How can I do this safely?
How can I keep myself fromgetting into a point where I
don't know how to get out of it?
So what would you say to folksout there who are listening, who
may be wondering well, yeah,maybe I'm doing this more than I
was, but I'm okay for now, Ithink.
What would you say to them?
Jim Maney (22:35):
I think we have to make it the same way.
If you have a rash on your arm,you're not worried about
calling the doctor or callinganybody or taking a look at or
showing it to your mother oryour wife Nothing, right?
Look at this new rash I have.
What do you think about it?
But I think that has to be thesame conversation that we have
to be able to have theconversation about gambling,
(22:58):
problem gambling, the wholelevel of it.
But it has to be decided and wecan't let the world decide it
for us, right?
We can't let Kevin Hart andLeBron James decide what our
gambling is for us, right?
We have to have the voice.
Our voice has to be heard asmuch as anybody else's voice out
(23:19):
there.
So for the person that'shearing, they hear the voice,
they hear the OASAS voice, theyhear the New York Council
Problem Gambling.
They have the Liberty Experianvoice at the same time, so they
can have the choice.
All the information.
They're not getting all theinformation right now.
It's still, I would say moreone-sided on the message that
(23:40):
gambling is harmless.
How can you not be?
Everybody's doing this, and ifyou're not, there's something
wrong with you as compared toquestioning and thinking.
Jerry Gretzinger (23:51):
Right.
Rebecca Cooper (23:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think what what I would say is,
you know, very simple, thatyou're not alone.
I mean, there's many peoplethat have traveled this journey.
There's people that are askingthe same questions that they are
, and there's no shame inreaching out, um, you know, and
asking for help, whatever that,wherever that may be, and that
there are a lot of supports outthere in New York State that
(24:15):
never were there, that weren'tthere 15 years ago or 30 years
ago.
You know we've expanded that wehave access to peers now.
You know there's lots of othertreatment services available.
We just brought in GAMFIM forfinancial things, so there's a
lot of options for people andall they have to do is ask.
Jerry Gretzinger (24:35):
Yeah, just get the conversation started.
And, as we talked to you about,there's so many other types of
new services and you talk aboutthe peer access and then we talk
about all the changes thatthere are and where the
availability of gambling andwagering is.
There's so many new things outthere.
I mean, we don't expect peopleto be able to understand or know
how all of that operates andcertainly what to do if it's
(24:58):
gotten a little bit out ofcontrol.
So, reach out to us, get theconversation started, and that's
all you got to do is starttalking and somebody else will
talk back with you.
So, hey, listen, Jim andRebecca.
Thanks for sitting down with us.
Again, we really appreciate itand we'll keep getting the
information out there, Jim, likeyou said.
Jim Maney (25:15):
Thank you.
Jerry Gretzinger (25:16):
Thank you very much, all right.
So if you want to have thatconversation, get it started.
I'll tell you a couple differentways you can do it.
You can go to our website,oasas.
ny.
gov.
Once you're on there, you cannavigate right to the problem
gambling pages and you can getsome specific information.
You could also find a link toGamfin on there that Rebecca was
talking about.
They can give you someconsultation, assistance with
(25:38):
that, to see where you're at.
You could also take a survey tofind out what level of gambling
you're at right now Hopefullyharmless, but if not, you can
find out there as well.
And then, obviously, the realeasy way to get a hold of
someone to talk to you go to ourHOPE line 877-8-HOPE-NY,
877-8-HOPE-NY.
Thanks for checking out thisepisode of Addiction: The Next
Step I'm your host, JerryGretzinger.
(25:59):
Until we see you again nexttime, be well.
The New York State Office of Addiction Services and
Supports, or OASAS, providesthis podcast as a public service
.
Opinions expressed do notnecessarily reflect those of the
agency or state.
This is Addiction (00:12):
The Next Step.
Jerry Gretzinger (00:18):
Hello there, Jerry Gretzinger here.
Your host for Addiction (00:19):
The Next Step.
It's our podcast, brought toyou by the New York State Office
of Addiction Services andSupports.
Today, our episode is going tofocus on, well, 30 years 30
years of work to help those whoare living with problem gambling
, and you know there's been alot that we've been talking
about.
We've had campaigns that we'vebeen undertaking to help people
(00:41):
who maybe are looking forservices or supports or just for
some consultation.
Right, maybe they're concernedthat they're gambling or mobile
sports wagering too much, andthat's part of what's changed.
Right, we talk about mobilesports wagering it's pretty much
everywhere now but we want totalk about where it's come from,
where it is today and how itimpacts everybody here in the
great state of New York.
So, joining us to have thisconversation, we have Jim Maney
(01:05):
from the New York Council onProblem Gambling.
He's the executive directorthere.
Jim, thanks for sitting downwith us.
Jim Maney (01:10):
Thanks for having me.
Jerry Gretzinger (01:11):
And, of course , our own Rebecca Cooper, Bureau
Director for Problem Gamblingwith OASAS.
Thanks, Rebecca, for sittingdown again.
Rebecca Cooper (01:16):
Thanks
Jerry Gretzinger (01:17):
And you're going to be becoming a regular
on the podcast.
Rebecca Cooper (01:19):
Yeah, well, you know, we're going to get someone
else to start talking about it.
Jerry Gretzinger (01:22):
Well as many people as we can right.
Because we have a lot ofconversations we can have,
certainly about addiction ingeneral, but, as I mentioned
today, talking about problemgambling.
So the two of you together, youhave a lot of combined years of
working to help people throughthe issues of problem gambling.
So, Jim, let's start with you.
I mean, how many years have youbeen doing this type of work?
Jim Maney (01:45):
This is my 30th in problem gambling and probably 10
years before that in substanceabuse.
Jerry Gretzinger (01:50):
Wow, All right .
So I mean a lot of time and youhave a good knowledge, my whole
life, your whole life, that'sright.
So, as you see, he's 40, right,you've been 30 and 10 before
that.
So there you go, and Rebecca.
Rebecca Cooper (02:07):
Yeah.
So, 30 years problem gamblingand eight years before that for
substance use.
Jerry Gretzinger (02:09):
So that's why we have you guys sitting down
with us, because this isn't yourfirst rodeo, as they say.
So I want to start with this.
We talk about the changinglandscape of what is gambling
and wagering, and certainly Iwould think one of the top
things that people would thinkabout is mobile sports wagering.
You've got it on every device.
Everywhere you look, thereseems to be another commercial
(02:29):
saying hey, pick up your phone,get on your laptop, place a
wager.
Jim.
Let me ask you to start.
What was the impact of that interms of, you know, the
incidence of problem gambling orthe likelihood that somebody
could then be dealing with that,having that access 24-7.
Jim Maney (02:47):
I have a 22-year-old daughter and her boyfriend is a
member of a frat out in Buffaloand he tells me all the stories
where I get my anecdotalinformation from him.
He has all nine accounts forall the nine licensees in New
York State.
And every one of the boys hasthose and I think the change
(03:07):
would be that he wouldn't havedone illegal gambling, offshore
gambling, he wouldn't have goneto websites.
None of them would have.
But they make it easy, simpleand that's all.
It is availability andaccessibility for it.
And I think the informationcoming from him and what they do
is they they sit, they watch,they bet.
(03:28):
They're not saying he's got agambling problem whatsoever I
don't think most people do buthow simple it is and what a
change that has been.
If we're talking about 30 years, you know, you think about it.
The people we used to see 30years ago were middle class
white men who played the horsesand took about 20 years for them
to develop a problem.
Jerry Gretzinger (03:48):
Yeah, yeah.
And now this accessibility andthe ease of just having it on
your device, Rebecca, what aboutyou?
Rebecca Cooper (03:54):
Yeah, I think you know along the same lines of
what Jim said.
It's just too easy and with theaccessibility and availability
we know, even from a preventionstandpoint, you know people tend
to develop more problems.
So the easier it is, the morelikely it is that someone's
going to develop a problem as aresult of it.
Jerry Gretzinger (04:11):
Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of what
we're here to talk about todaytoo is you know it's legal in
New York State, right?
And so a lot of what we dothrough OASAS is you know,
whether it's substances orwagering or whatnot.
If people are going to do it,we want them to be safe, we want
them to take you know we callit harm reduction, right.
We want you to take the stepsso that it doesn't get out of
control, right?
(04:31):
Do it responsibly, do itappropriately.
So let's talk on that for thetime being.
So, now that there is thisenhanced accessibility and I
don't know how it can be moreaccessible than it is now but
how has that changed in what wecan do to help people?
Because, like you said,somebody could be, you know,
betting on the horses for 20years before they develop what
we consider a problem.
(04:52):
What do we do now to try tohelp people with this?
I can access it 24 hours a day,seven days a week, right at the
tip of my fingers.
How are we trying to helppeople avoid getting into a I
don't know a level of gamblingwhere it gets out of control?
Jim Maney (05:09):
I don't know about answering that question, but it
reminds me when I first started.
Went to do a training at thelabor department.
I knew a man that was workingthere.
I said, Jim, come up and do atalk about problem gambling, be
the first one ever.
And I remember going up thereand it was 12 o'clock lunchtime
and nobody showed up, not oneperson, right?
(05:30):
No big deal.
We said let's try it again nextmonth.
So I go back again next month.
And three women came in and I'mlike, yes, we have three people
that are going to listen to metalk about problem, yeah, but
I'm doing my job, right.
And so we're about to start andthey three got up and said oh,
we were just looking for a placeto have lunch.
(05:51):
So you take a look at that.
And you think your question washow do we do it?
But you take a look at yourpodcast today.
That's how we do it, right.
We do it the same way thatindustry does it, and we don't
take a stand, but they do itgreat, right?
They ping you, they issue theinformation to you, boom, boom,
(06:13):
boom, boom, we just have to doit the same exact way they do,
because how they do it works,and I think we just have to have
the resources to do it the waythey do it, because I think our
folks residents in New Yorkdeserve that and need that
information, and then they canchoose to decide where they want
to go with stuff.
But to answer that, I thinkwe're on the right path of what
(06:37):
we're doing.
We just have to do more of it asmuch as we can.
Jerry Gretzinger (06:39):
I was gonna say you started your response by
saying well, I don't know aboutanswering that question, but
but I think you give a goodanswer to that question because
because you're right, and thatis that is why we try to do this
, because we want to be wherepeople are right.
So if they're listening topodcasts, you know.
If they're on social media, weknow we need to be there as well
.
And so, Rebecca, on that end ofthings, I mean certainly we're
doing what we can to be in thoseplaces.
I don't know if you want totalk about, you know, some of
(07:00):
those efforts and what we'rekind of seeing.
I know one of the things we'redoing right now encourages
people to actively engage withthe survey and the numbers that
we're seeing.
If you want to talk about someof that.
Rebecca Cooper (07:09):
Yeah, and I think you know along the same
lines of what Jim was saying, isthat you know, over time people
are becoming more and moreaware that this potentially
could become a problem.
And I remember, you know, 30years ago, you know, people
would come into the clinic thatwe were working at and they were
very shameful and they werevery sad and it was.
(07:30):
There was a lot of stigmaaround that because nobody
talked about it, nobodyrecognized it as a problem.
It was much more sociallyacceptable.
And so I think, as we haveevolved in, you know, expanding
access, you know advertising,surveys, making people more
aware, even just just havingconversations because that's
(07:53):
where everything starts rightand making it part of a sort of
normal conversation that, hey,yeah, you know, gambling can be
really fun but it can become anaddiction, just like substance
abuse can, and I think thatallows people to feel like
they're a little bit moreconnected and that there's no
shame if they are experiencing aproblem or living with someone
(08:13):
that's having a problem.
Jerry Gretzinger (08:14):
And you know, and I, as you're talking about
that, I was thinking too.
You talked about surveys, andone of the major pushes that we
have right now is we'reencouraging people to take a
survey to see what level they'reat in terms of gambling.
Is it, is it just my you know,for mild entertainment, or is it
rising to a more of aconcerning level?
And I feel, from the resultswe're seeing, that people are
(08:35):
interested to know.
Okay, yeah, where do I land?
So enough people areparticipating often enough where
they have that question wheream I at?
And I think one of the biggestthings we're seeing is the
completion rate of the survey.
Rebecca Cooper (08:50):
And I think that what that tells us is that
people want to know, they wantthat balanced approach.
They want, you know, they wantto understand how the behaviors
that they're exhibiting withtheir gambling like, how do they
keep it sort of in the safelane, how do they prevent it
from becoming a problem?
What does that look like?
And so, by giving them, youknow, what we would call
(09:11):
normative feedback, they take aquick survey, you know, talk
about what their specificgambling behaviors are, and then
they get a very quick normativefeedback on where they are sort
of on the spectrum, and then weprovide additional information
for them to get additionalsupport.
But we want people tounderstand, and I think one of
the other distinct differences,you know, with a gambling
(09:33):
addiction, then substance use,that we see is there's not
always a lot of warning signs.
So, you know, that also combatssome of the identification
issues as well.
And so by creatingopportunities for people to see
where they are, I think thatreally opens up the
opportunities for people toeither, you know, either reduce
their gambling or prevent itfrom getting a problem.
Jerry Gretzinger (09:55):
You just talked about warning signs too,
and, Jim, I'm going to jump backto you now.
You talked about 30 years inproblem gambling and 10 years
before that in addiction.
When we think about warningsigns that people could look for
, we often hear that when itcomes to gambling they can be
really difficult to see Becauseit's not much of an outward I
don't know display of symptomsalways.
(10:16):
But has that changed at allover the past 30 years?
Because, as you said, peopleused to go to the track right.
So if somebody was at the trackevery day, maybe you'd start to
wonder.
Now, with people on theirphones, it's hard to know what
can people look for or whatcould serve as a sign.
Jim Maney (10:33):
Jerry, I've lived in this area my whole life and went
to the track the first time in1973 to see Secretariat run.
I didn't know who Secretariatwas, but I was at that race.
I've never met anybody leavingthe Saratoga race track that has
never said they've lost money,right, They've always broke even
because you could never tell ifthey won or not, or lost.
(10:54):
I think when you talk aboutthese things it reminds me of
you know, back in the day, sincewe're going back 30 years, what
we wanted to do with lotterytickets.
That was a major thing backthen.
It was like why can't we makelottery tickets like
prescription drugs?
You ever see those prescriptiondrugs and all of a sudden they
do a commercial and then for thelast 15 seconds they talk about
the warning signs and what'sgoing to happen heart attacks,
(11:16):
death, this and that.
And I remember my daughter wassaying, Dad, why would anybody
ever take this medication ifthey were going to die?
It doesn't make sense.
So we always wanted the samething on lottery tickets.
All right, buy a lottery ticket, but in case there may be
divorce, suicide, lose yourhouse, lose your family, lose
all these type of things.
(11:37):
And we think the same thing nowfor mobile sports betting.
We see every ad in the worldright, put five dollars up,
we'll give you 150.
And at the beginning, caesarswas given three thousand dollars
away in money.
You know simple bets and Ialways imagine if we could do
that, come to treatment andwe'll give you $150.
(11:57):
Come to treatment, we'll giveyou $3,000.
Our places, our clinics, wouldbe full if we could do it the
same exact way.
So I think Rebecca is perfectlyright.
Raising the awareness is theonly thing we have to do,
because if we do it, by allthese things that we're talking
about, we have a really goodchance, because it will make the
(12:17):
conversation start and themajority of people understand
that it can be an addiction, canbe problematic and, as we know,
this addiction we need each andevery one of us to work on this
.
This is not, you know, in theold days, you got DWI and then
you had to get treatment.
We don't have anything for that, for gambling whatsoever, right
(12:39):
, in fact, this is the hardestone because you're winning
gambling, right, you could bedown $10,000, right, and in the
midst of panic, in the midst ofeverything, and you hit Guess
what, you have no problemsanymore.
That's the big difference, andI think you're raising the
awareness of problem gambling isthe number one thing we can do
and that's why you're doingthese things and all the
(13:01):
information that OASAS is doingis the best thing possible.
Jerry Gretzinger (13:05):
Well, we definitely appreciate hearing
that.
We feel we're doing the rightthing and we just hope the
message is getting to enoughpeople, Jim.
So I'm getting the sense.
You have a lot of good storiesand you're a very good
storyteller, and we often findthat one of the best things you
can do to reach people is toshare a story about someone
who's lived this experienceright, who went through it.
(13:27):
And I'm assuming in your 30years of doing the work you do
now, you've probably encountereda couple of people who had a
story that's probably stuck withyou and I just wasn't sure if
you want to take a minute or cantake a minute to tell us a
story about someone who realizedokay, this is getting out of my
control at this point.
I don't know if I can turn thisaround, but I'm going to try
(13:50):
and maybe did or didn't, but astory that you could share.
Jim Maney (13:58):
That, might, you know , resonate with people at home.
There's a thousand of them, I'msure there are, and you know
every story starts to say thesame Shame, guilt and loss of
money.
Right, and the hardest thing isI think one of the first ones,
and Rebecca and I were both inon this case, one of the first
ones ever a woman came in, aprofessional woman, and she was
going to buy a new car and thesalesperson said you know your
(14:23):
credit card information and sheput her one credit card down and
the man came back and laughedat her.
He said you have to put all 13of yours down.
She says I beg your pardon, Ionly have one credit card.
Well, it turned out her husbandtook out 12 credit cards in her
name and, like a good gambler,got the credit card information
(14:43):
sent to his post office box and,like a good gambler, he paid
off the minimum with the firstcredit to pay the second to pay
a certain credit for it.
And they came into treatmentand she called the helpline and
got to us and I remember onsunday getting a call and saying
come in monday morning brightand early and bring your husband
.
And so they came in mondaymorning and I said when do you
(15:08):
get paid?
And he said Wednesday.
And I said what do you do withthe money?
And he looked right at her andsaid sweetie, if you just let me
gamble one more time, I can getall this money back.
So the first thing he realizedthat he was a pathological
gambler.
He was right in the midst of it, still right, and I remember
(15:29):
that case vividly and we weren'tRebecca and I both worked on
that case individually and thenin couples, and I will say that
that's probably the firstsuccess that I had and we had
together as a couple.
And you thought, okay.
I remember she saying what aremy options?
Well, you can divorce them, youcan arrest them right, or you
(15:55):
can stay with them.
And she's like those aren't thegreatest options, are they
right?
And I remember I think they waslike either 70 something
$80,000, which was a ton ofmoney back then, and I think we
even did the finances.
If he worked the second jobright Back then, you were
probably getting $6 an hour at asecond job at Walmart or
(16:18):
something.
It was going to take him 34years to pay this off.
And as we went throughtreatment the beginning of the
month, every month with her wasvery tough because the bills
were due and she was paying forthem and so we had we, I mean we
had to do suicide allergy,homicide allergy with these
(16:39):
situations because it was andthey were.
They were very, very, very,very hard and the last I know,
success.
So to me that was the first andRebecca can tell more about it.
Rebecca Cooper (16:52):
Yeah, I mean I think I'll go to another story.
Because, Jim gave a greatoverview of that.
But one of the things thatalways stuck with me is it was
pretty early on when we were atthe Center for Problem Gambling
and I remember Jim always had towalk by my office to get to his
and he had a new intake and hewent and got him in the waiting
(17:14):
room and I hear himchit-chatting away in the
hallway and it's a younger guyand Jim does a session and he
comes out and he comes in myoffice and he's like I just got
to tell you about this and I'mlike this intake, I just did.
And I'm like this intake, Ijust did.
I'm like, oh well, what's goingon?
He's like I sat down and theguy, the kid, was like, oh, do
you remember me?
And Jim's like, no, not really.
(17:35):
He's like well, you were mycounselor when I worked at was
hospitality house hope house youwere my counselor when I worked
at hope house five years agoand I had a gambling problem
back then and it got worse.
So are you gonna?
And you never asked me about mygambling when I was in
substance use treatment.
So are you going to help me now?
And I remember we both satthere like oh my gosh.
(17:59):
And that always has stuck withme and as services have evolved
and I never forgot that storyand so I think, as wherever you
go and you know, when I came toOASAS 20 years ago, it's like
that is also so important isthat co-occurring and then
integrating asking thosequestions right, because we know
(18:22):
people that have a substanceuse disorder at higher risk and
vice versa, and just askingthose questions and we do people
a disservice when we weren'tasking those questions in
substance use treatment and nowour outpatient providers have to
screen for it.
And those kinds of things makeall the difference in the world
when we talk about harmreduction and preventative
(18:42):
across the board.
So that's one of my earlierstories with us working together
and it was really we both werelike dumbfounded, like oh my
gosh, we've been in substanceuse treatment.
We never ask these questions.
Jim Maney (18:56):
I can still feel the kick in the gut right now as
Rebecca tells that story.
It was horrible.
It was horrible.
Can you help me now?
I remember the conversationgoing forward and he was clean
and sober from alcohol and drugs, but he did two bits in prison
as a result of his gambling andso it was.
(19:18):
I can feel that today.
So thanks a lot Rebecca.
Rebecca Cooper (19:23):
I remember not a lot of things rattled Jim Maney
, but that did, and we both satthere like, oh my goodness.
Jerry Gretzinger (19:31):
You mentioned that, though, that has become
such a significant focus rightthe co-occurring and you know
you talk about just things thatchange, not just you know what,
what's encouraging people to goout there and participate in
gambling, but also the way youscreen for it when you screen
for it.
So these are all positivechanges that are happening on
that end of things.
And, Rebecca, I've heard youtalk about co-occurring, but I
hadn't heard that story, but soI can.
(19:53):
You know, it kind of gives youa little background as to why
that's so important to you andwhy it's important anyway.
Rebecca Cooper (19:58):
Right.
Jerry Gretzinger (19:58):
Because you never know.
Rebecca Cooper (19:59):
You don't ever know.
Jim Maney (20:01):
And yet we did some really good work back then.
So it's interesting thinkingback.
I mean Rebecca formed the firstsignificant other group in the
country for significant otherproblem gamblers and I mean that
was unbelievable work that weidentified that and we took a
look at that and that grew.
(20:21):
I remember that grewtremendously.
Monday nights.
Yeah, what work we did in that.
So there's a lot of stories, alot of great stories, a lot of
great successes.
You know, I think the greatestthing is when you learn.
You have to learn in the midstof the trenches and that's when
we learn the most.
You know, we know we learn somestuff from books and things
that.
But you learn from the client,you learn from your mistakes,
(20:43):
you learn from what you did notdo and you're going to do it
better next time.
And you know, I think if, if wetake a look at 30 years, the
both of us have growntremendously because we've
listened and we've adapted andwe had the basic thing to care
about, the people that we weresupposed to care about.
Jerry Gretzinger (20:59):
Yeah, yeah, and you know I always talk about
the other folks we'veinterviewed who have come on and
shared their personal stories,their lived experience with
gambling and certainly treatmentand now living in recovery from
it.
And it's, it is, it's, it's a.
It can be a difficult journey,but everybody that we've heard
from has said they're so happythat they had someone who helped
them along the way, becausethey got them to where they are
(21:21):
now.
Rebecca Cooper (21:21):
And I, you know, I really it's a privilege.
I mean, if you think back, and,as you know, we're just sort of
reflecting being able to be apart of that and and and
creating safe spaces for peopleand listening and caring and,
you know, being there to sort ofwalk with them, it's definitely
, it's been a privileged career.
Jim Maney (21:38):
Oh, we're lucky to meet more world to care about
people, because caring aboutpeople makes one happier, makes
one more satisfied.
And so we're very lucky to dothe work we've been chosen to do
.
Jerry Gretzinger (21:50):
Listen, let me ask you both, as we kind of get
ready to close here.
I think sometimes people thinkthat help, services, supports
are there for people who are ata point where I have no other
choice I've already gottenmyself in so deep I don't know
what else to do but I know a lotof what we want to try to do
also is to help people preventgetting to that level.
Giving them we talked about inanother recent podcast episode
(22:15):
the guide rails right.
How can I do this safely?
How can I keep myself fromgetting into a point where I
don't know how to get out of it?
So what would you say to folksout there who are listening, who
may be wondering well, yeah,maybe I'm doing this more than I
was, but I'm okay for now, Ithink.
What would you say to them?
Jim Maney (22:35):
I think we have to make it the same way.
If you have a rash on your arm,you're not worried about
calling the doctor or callinganybody or taking a look at or
showing it to your mother oryour wife Nothing, right?
Look at this new rash I have.
What do you think about it?
But I think that has to be thesame conversation that we have
to be able to have theconversation about gambling,
(22:58):
problem gambling, the wholelevel of it.
But it has to be decided and wecan't let the world decide it
for us, right?
We can't let Kevin Hart andLeBron James decide what our
gambling is for us, right?
We have to have the voice.
Our voice has to be heard asmuch as anybody else's voice out
(23:19):
there.
So for the person that'shearing, they hear the voice,
they hear the OASAS voice, theyhear the New York Council
Problem Gambling.
They have the Liberty Experianvoice at the same time, so they
can have the choice.
All the information.
They're not getting all theinformation right now.
It's still, I would say moreone-sided on the message that
(23:40):
gambling is harmless.
How can you not be?
Everybody's doing this, and ifyou're not, there's something
wrong with you as compared toquestioning and thinking.
Jerry Gretzinger (23:51):
Right.
Rebecca Cooper (23:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think what what I would say is,
you know, very simple, thatyou're not alone.
I mean, there's many peoplethat have traveled this journey.
There's people that are askingthe same questions that they are
, and there's no shame inreaching out, um, you know, and
asking for help, whatever that,wherever that may be, and that
there are a lot of supports outthere in New York State that
(24:15):
never were there, that weren'tthere 15 years ago or 30 years
ago.
You know we've expanded that wehave access to peers now.
You know there's lots of othertreatment services available.
We just brought in GAMFIM forfinancial things, so there's a
lot of options for people andall they have to do is ask.
Jerry Gretzinger (24:35):
Yeah, just get the conversation started.
And, as we talked to you about,there's so many other types of
new services and you talk aboutthe peer access and then we talk
about all the changes thatthere are and where the
availability of gambling andwagering is.
There's so many new things outthere.
I mean, we don't expect peopleto be able to understand or know
how all of that operates andcertainly what to do if it's
(24:58):
gotten a little bit out ofcontrol.
So, reach out to us, get theconversation started, and that's
all you got to do is starttalking and somebody else will
talk back with you.
So, hey, listen, Jim andRebecca.
Thanks for sitting down with us.
Again, we really appreciate itand we'll keep getting the
information out there, Jim, likeyou said.
Jim Maney (25:15):
Thank you.
Jerry Gretzinger (25:16):
Thank you very much, all right.
So if you want to have thatconversation, get it started.
I'll tell you a couple differentways you can do it.
You can go to our website,oasas.
ny.
gov.
Once you're on there, you cannavigate right to the problem
gambling pages and you can getsome specific information.
You could also find a link toGamfin on there that Rebecca was
talking about.
They can give you someconsultation, assistance with
(25:38):
that, to see where you're at.
You could also take a survey tofind out what level of gambling
you're at right now Hopefullyharmless, but if not, you can
find out there as well.
And then, obviously, the realeasy way to get a hold of
someone to talk to you go to ourHOPE line 877-8-HOPE-NY,
877-8-HOPE-NY.
Thanks for checking out thisepisode of Addiction: The Next
Step I'm your host, JerryGretzinger.
(25:59):
Until we see you again nexttime, be well.
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