January 28, 2025 • 41 mins
ADHD Money Talk is back!
Dave is joined by a new (and possibly recurring?!) guest, Max Moclock.
Max graduated from Penn State with a degree in Finance. After 10 years in corporate America, Max started a career pivot to becoming a brand strategist. He received an ADHD diagnosis in 2012 and is passionate about creating space for others to feel confident and empowered, regardless of their diagnosis.
This episode introduces a new perspective on setting New Year’s resolutions through the concept of the **Winter Arc**, which emphasizes achievable goals, the power of visualization, and the importance of celebrating small wins while fostering self-forgiveness.
What's inside?
• Introduction of the Winter Arc as a manageable goal-setting approach
• Importance of focusing on small, consistent victories
• Visualization techniques for achieving goals
• Encouragement to practice self-forgiveness and grace
• Reflections on the distinct challenges faced by individuals with ADHD
• Call for listeners to rethink their approach to resolutions in 2025
Head over to our YouTube channel for the full experience on future episodes.
Learn more about ADHD-friendly financial coaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In 2024, the ADHD Money Talk podcast did two
episodes that hurt.
In 2022, we did one everysingle week, I believe.
In 2023, we did almost everyweek, and in 2024, we did two.
So me, dave, burned out prettyhard.
(00:20):
So my business was getting big,but also my ADHD brain was
having a hard time staying ontop of everything and things
started to fall off.
And so the last six months orso, it's been like Dave in the
cave, hibernating, resting in away, making things less
(00:40):
complicated, shrinking onpurpose the kinds of things that
sometimes you just have toaccept that you got to do which
was very hard to accept, andit's like you don't really feel
like you've accepted it untilit's already been happening and
you're like, oh, now I see whatmy brain was trying to do.
But anyways, we've beenretooling.
I have someone now working withme named Max, and he's going to
(01:03):
be on the podcast from now on.
So let's cut right to the chaseand just let you know that in
2025, we're going to do biweekly episodes.
We're going to have Max on heretoo, as, like my co host,
because it will make it moreconversational.
It'll help make the prep forpodcasts not as difficult
because doing a solo podcast ifyou have anything if you've ever
done a podcast solo, you wouldknow that it's harder, because
(01:28):
you kind of have to beentertaining by yourself the
whole time as best as youpossibly can and you get in your
head a lot and then you're like, if you're perfectionistic
sometimes you're like hittingstop, re-record, stop, re-record
, like until you feel likeyou're going insane.
So that's so.
It's going to be easier to beconsistent.
We're going to bring outepisodes every two weeks.
We're going to talk about allkinds of stuff.
(01:49):
Hopefully we'll get some guestson if we feel like we have the
time to do the whole schedulingthing and can manage that.
But we'll be able to come upwith stuff to talk about.
It's going to stay the same asit was before Vulnerable, raw,
transparent, not ashamed to saythe mistakes that we make
relatable.
All of the things that I thinkmade the podcast somewhat
(02:13):
successful or at least I felt itwas somewhat successful in the
first place was because mostpeople would reach out and say,
hey, I appreciate you talkingabout this so raw and being so
vulnerable and transparent.
So that's what we're going tostay with, while also giving you
all the tips, the ideas andwhat you need to help.
Let's get into the episode.
So it's me and Max Moclockwho's been working with me.
(02:34):
He's got a great radio voiceYou're going to like it.
He's got a consultingbackground and he's been helping
me stay sane while I rebuild mybusiness.
And in the near future you'llstart to hear more about the new
offers we have, the new thingswe're doing in the back Lots of
exciting stuff.
So stay tuned, come back in,listen to us, go to
(02:56):
ADHDMoneyTalkcom and ask aquestion, leave a voicemail and
get in the conversation and juststay tuned because we got a lot
of cool stuff coming.
So that's enough of this.
Let's get into the episode.
We're talking about winter arc,new Year's resolution, and
we're flipping it all on itshead and saying something fresh
about New Year's resolutionswith people with ADHD.
And bear with us while ouron-camera and on-microphone
(03:19):
chemistry starts to blossom.
Could be a little awkward atfirst, but that's okay, we'll
figure it out.
All right, let's get into it.
Welcome back to ADHD Money Talk, the show that helps you figure
(03:47):
out money with ADHD.
It's as simple as that, andwe're back after a long hiatus
super long.
But just watch out, because wemight get one done and then
never show up again, or we mightget on a roll.
We'll see.
We're going to find out soon.
So, guess what?
We have someone else going tobe talking Instead of just me
powering through.
(04:07):
We've got Max, who's beenhelping me out, and it's his
first time ever talking to thepublic, to all 10 of you who
listen to the show.
So, max, say hello, introduceyourself.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
What's up Dave, what's up guys?
It's good to be here.
I'm feeling more of the gettingon a roll vibe here for 2025.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, we're going to get on a roll and it's going to
be beautiful, and we're going tohave some new things coming out
, which is going to be cool.
So stay tuned.
But, yeah, we've been in thewar room for a while figuring
out our next moves hence thecontent hiatus, moves, hence the
(04:48):
content hiatus.
But we're about ready to comeback out and go hard and bring
you guys some good content thatwill help you with your money in
a way that at least feelssomewhat approachable, because
we know money is prettyunapproachable for a lot of us,
which is understandable.
So we're going to start offthis new wave of the ADHD Money
Talk podcast talking about NewYear's resolutions.
(05:08):
So, have you ever heard of thewinter arc?
Have you ever heard of it, max?
Have you heard of the winter?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
arc.
So the winter arc is reallyjust an approach to setting
goals that breaks things downinto a more manageable time
frame.
Right, it gets you in a frameof mind that you're just
changing habits.
You're not making these crazylifestyle adjustments for an
entire year like a new year'sresolution.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, that's basically what I got from it.
So I read a couple articles.
One was called what is itwinter arc?
So thankfully they did answerthe question.
But it's kind of like you havethree months left of the year
and what a lot of people mightdo.
What I do is it gets dark andcold out and it's a little bit
(05:55):
icky and there's always holidays, so I kind of just like start
getting to the couch a littlebit sooner, get the snacks a
little bit sooner, binge eat,just go into my comfort, my
creature comforts, hard, and sothen.
So then basically I come up toJanuary and I'm like, oh, I'm
going to work out, but I'veliterally went 10 steps
backwards in those last threemonths.
(06:16):
So it's kind of likepre-priming for a new year's
resolution, like getting warmedup.
Is that kind of what you gotfrom it?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, it's like getting some momentum going so
you don't have to really crusheverything at once.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
yeah yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah.
And like in some of these inthis article, they're talking
about some like on in the, onthe, on the socials, people are
like getting up at 5 am anddoing crazy workouts and stuff
and like that's like, for Idon't know, maybe they really
are doing that.
I'm going to give them thebenefit of the doubt, but it's
(06:49):
not for me.
For me, it'd be like I'm goingto brush my teeth for an extra
10 seconds today and that's awin.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
There you go.
I think one of the biggestthings is the whole mindset
shift, because I remember in oneof the articles I think it was
either a psychologist or acounselor she said you know,
don't jump to the big things.
If you want to lose weight,make your goal weight realistic.
Like, for example, right now,if I say I want to lose 20
(07:20):
pounds, that's probably going totake me I don't know how long,
I don't know exactly how tobreak down a 20 pound weight
loss and I don't know if Ireally want to do the things
that are going to, you know, berequired for me to lose 20
pounds.
So I just said to myself thismorning when I was leaving you
know what, I'm just going tolose five pounds and that's
going to be it.
And bringing things down atthat level feels much more
(07:43):
manageable for, like my ADHD,you know like there's not as
much pressure to do this, thiscrusade towards a big grand goal
right now yeah, not nearly asmuch pressure and you can give
yourself a reward for gettingthose five pounds.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
And like when I would do my weight loss journeys,
because I've had about six ofthem in my vicious cycle of lose
, then gain and lose and gain,I've had the most success
tracking carefully, but that'salso hard to manage.
But I also had success takingpictures of myself to see like
(08:22):
changes that you did the picture, I did pictures like two of on
two of my cycles.
Yeah, I would take pictures inthe mirror and then I would.
I would be able to see theevolution and I think seeing it
and just even just looking atyourself and being like you're
okay, dave, you look good, Ithink that that kind of stuff is
helpful.
I really do that positiveself-talk that's it.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
It's huge.
Yes, it's totally huge.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So what the experts say about this winter arc,
though, is that you want to berealistic and you don't want to
make goals that are way tooidealistic, which is why they
say that 88% of people who set aNew Year's resolution don't
make it into february stickingto it, because they're just
unrealistic and they are way tooidealistic and for me and for
the adhd side of things it.
(09:17):
I always get caught up thinkingabout the um, I get infatuated
with the feeling of the outcomeand I just skip the process.
I just go right to holy crap,like I want to look like that,
let's do it.
And so the process usually goes.
What's the most extreme way?
(09:40):
I can do this as fast aspossible.
It's like I'm going to buy thisworkout package, I'm going to
follow it and I'm going to justgo hard every day.
Don't miss a day, and if I missa day, you're like, ah, it's
over, I lost, I failed.
It means I'm a total failure.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I missed one day.
Total failure and that's theexact same thing for budgeting
too for me is if I go over onecategory limit that I may have
set for myself, no matter howarbitrary it was.
If I go over a category limit,or if I skip a few days of
categorizing transactions, or ifI do have an impulse purchase
that is like $250, $500, that'sa lot for me.
(10:20):
I'll then abandon ship.
I won't look at my monarch forprobably two weeks.
I'll come back.
There'll be 88 transactions youknow I'll be overwhelmed you
have 88 transactions to reviewmax.
Yeah, you, piece of crap goodluck.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Exactly what a feeling.
And then you put it down andnext time you get it there's 250
yep.
So I guess I to I wanted tomention that the whole you know,
thinking about this topic, thelittle nugget of epiphany that I
had was that we ADHD people,generally speaking, shouldn't
(10:55):
really I mean, maybe weshouldn't think about doing New
Year's resolutions where you'remaking this goal for 2025 and
actually thinking you're goingto stick to it and actually
thinking you're going to stickto it.
Maybe we should just have aseries of winter arcs where
we're literally adding the onesmallest next thing we can do to
move towards the objective.
And I think that's important.
(11:15):
And let's talk about thinkingabout the objective Like, what
should the objective be?
Because I feel like there'ssome pitfalls people fall into
with coming up with a goal.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, like in the first place, even figuring out
what it is they want to do,whether it's a winner arc or
your weekly goal or anything.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, figuring out what you want to do.
What's the motivation behindthe goal.
Is it really truly somethingyou genuinely want and are
connected to, or does it feellike an obligation or something
like that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So, before trying to white-knuckle your way into
goals and I'm just doing thisfor the first time now because,
like we've talked about here,you know, I've kind of just
picked an arbitrary goal that Ifelt super passionate about,
focused on, threw a bunch ofmoney at and then, you know, let
fall by the wayside I'm tryingto ask these questions and go
(12:19):
into it with a little moreintention this time.
So something like askingyourself why am I even doing
this in the first place?
You know, am I setting a goalbecause I want to do this, or
because I just feel like Ishould, because I've seen other
people post about this?
Or I'm X age, I just turned 30and I feel like by the time
(12:42):
you're 30, you need to do this,or by the time you're 30, you
need to do this, or by the timeyou're 40, you need to have this
done.
And that'll help really informhow you're going to carry the
purpose of the goal with youthroughout the whole time that
you're doing this.
Because whether it's a winnerarc or whether it's something
else like if you don't reallyhave a strong why, or if it's
not really coming from the rightplace, whether it's fitness,
(13:04):
finances, hobbies, relationships.
It's probably not going to lastthat long, and I'm just
speaking from my experience here.
I've crashed and burned plentyof times when it comes to this
stuff.
Having that strong, why, likewhy, are you even doing these
things in the first place?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, I think that's super important, and anyone who
has, who's actually stuck withthis podcast through the break
and has listened to my earlyones, you know how much of a
stickler I was for why, on thatone-page financial plan that I
wanted everyone to try and do,the top thing you put on it was
what is your money purpose?
What is the purpose?
(13:40):
And you got there by doing alot of deep reflection.
You couldn't just, you couldn'tbe following a fad or following
what your friends are doing orwhat your colleagues are doing.
It had to be deeply felt andconnected to in order for it to
have any staying power, let'ssay.
And so and I think in this, inthese articles in one of them
(14:04):
they say she made a really goodpoint the winter arc is about
setting goals for yourself, likemany do, and sticking to them
without outside support cheeringyou on.
It means reinventing yourself,even just bettering yourself, or
even just bettering yourself insome way, without the
expectation that anyone else isgoing to notice or care.
(14:25):
So it's true, yeah, it's allabout that motivation.
And why are you doing it?
And one of the things that I'mtrying to do better at and I
know the power of it like I,rationally and intellectually
know the power of it.
But it is hard for us with adhdto really truly visualize our
(14:45):
future selves in the state thatwe want to be in.
But it's more than just seeinga picture, but it's seeing the
movie.
You know, it's like seeing themovie of your life with these
accomplishments and feeling theair that you breathe in in the
morning when you have no debtanymore, and putting yourself in
that environment whereeverything is calm.
(15:09):
And how do you feel when youwalk downstairs and make
breakfast?
How do you feel now?
What are the thoughts racingthrough your mind and what will
your thoughts be then?
What are the things that you'llbe able to focus on and put
your attention to?
That you can't today, becauseyou have all this kind of hum of
chaos and uncertainty andlimited choice, even because
(15:31):
when you have like debt, likewe've talked about, it can
really keep you trapped in thisprison of limited options and
kind of like ongoing subtle fear.
So the visualization, reallyfeeling it, deeply Meditating on
(15:54):
it, doing self-hypnosis on it,whatever it takes to get it into
your subconscious, that is whoyou are.
And then I've also read a lotabout and really relate to the
idea of reading that future youthat you visualized into your
current state, like into yourcurrent mindset.
So it's almost like saying I dohave what it takes, I am on the
(16:16):
path, I am worthy of it.
So I think all this mental workand this is what I drill into
all of my clients is this mentalwork is absolutely key for goal
achievement, financial orotherwise.
Not just throwing money at itcan't throw money at it and you
can't go on the continual umtreadmill of rationalization, um
(16:44):
of.
Oh yeah, look, I kind of didbetter here.
It kind of works there, butI'll do it next month you can't,
you know there's certain timeswhere you have to be super
honest with yourself and catchyourself rationalizing yourself
into a temporary safe space.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, yeah, and then just blaming, just blaming, your
ADHD.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, you really can't do that.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Don't just use it as a cop out.
I'm raising, I'm raising myhand here.
Yeah, no doubt that.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I need to so.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So yeah, I mean I think connecting with your why
in the first place is the firstbig piece to sort of creating a
successful winner arc Right.
I mean, the second thing, orthe second question that I think
you started to get intoanswering a little bit, was in
what specific ways will Ibenefit from making these
changes?
So I really liked how you saidview the movie, don't look at
(17:38):
the picture Like, don't justhave the picture flash in front
of you Like.
Start to get that repetition ofseeing what your life is going
to look like when you achieve oryou hit this goal or you
implement some new behavior orhabit in your daily life,
because that makes it a lot morereal than just kind of having a
flash, at least I think, inpictures sometimes just kind of
(17:58):
having a flash of that pictureand then just jumping right to
the next thought that you havefor or or not, really ingraining
the emotion with what you'reactually shooting for.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
No, I get what you're saying because it's like you
have the flash.
I I definitely experienced theflash of the image, the instant
kind of surge of like I wouldcall it strong but not well
built, foundationally motivation, and I lunge into it.
What?
And that could even be animpulsive purchase, where it's
like if I get this thing, it'sgoing to make my journey to this
(18:34):
goal happen.
Like this thing will do it.
You get the flash.
I'm going to use a real exampleof something that I've done
recently.
There's like a thousand of them.
I can't think of one.
If I buy this massage gun, I'mgoing to not be sore and that'll
(18:56):
make me go to the gym.
Boom bought it.
Barely use it.
That kind of thing, because Istill do that.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Oh yeah, I did it the other day.
I bought a it's this lower backheating massager strap thing,
and is it going to work?
I don't know.
Did I really need it?
Probably not.
We'll see when it gets here.
I don't know, Did I really needit?
Probably not.
We'll see when it gets here.
I don't know, maybe I'll bejumping around when my back is
in perfect shape after I've usedthis $40, you know, back
(19:27):
massager off of Amazon.
I doubt it.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Hey, man, 40 bucks though it's at least, at least
that's a in magnitude uh, notthe worst thing.
From what I can tell about you,max, I think you do a pretty, I
think you're.
You're like, you go to thelibrary, like that's, like,
that's awesome.
I, I do go to the library, yeah, and like like I was explaining
, uh, I'm like I'm gonna readthis book, so I'll buy it right
now, and then I never do.
(19:49):
Or I buy it on audible and thenI have.
So I probably have 100 books onaudible and I've probably read
30 of them yeah, yeah.
And then I keep buying new onesthat I want to read and then I
may never get to it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Oh wait, I was going to say okay on that note.
So how you brought up you knowthe, the movie and tying
emotions to it.
I think like a practical exampleof that that I just had written
down, was emergency funds a lotright?
Was emergency funds a lot right?
Like people needing emergencyfunds not just so they can have
(20:22):
an arbitrary amount of money intheir bank account, but because
when there's an expense thatcomes down or when stuff hits
the fan, you save that money,not so you can just have the
money, but so that you can feelconfident and you can feel pride
of knowing that when that thingdoes happen it does come down
(20:42):
the pike you can totally coverit without putting it onto a
credit card or without it goingto collections and stressing
about it and like for real, likewe've all been there when that
has happened, but it's not idealand that's not that like.
That's the type of thing thatkind of keeps you in those
cycles where you're not reallybreaking out of it.
So like tying that pride andthat confidence in the future.
(21:04):
You know, I think that that canreally help as you're going
about this for the first time.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, when we're talking about building up
financial stability, so manypeople want to jump straight to
debt payoff if they have creditcard debt and they overlook
having any buffer.
And I was actually talking to aclient earlier this week about
this and you know I always saywhat I gotta say about, like you
(21:31):
should have an emergency fund.
But it's nice to see when aclient finally has their own
realization where, like, I thinkI'm flying a little too close
to the sun.
I think it's time to have alittle bit of a cushion, because
it's very defeating to go tothe credit card that you've been
trying to dutifully pay offwhen something comes up that's
unplanned, an emergency or justsomething that's too good to
(21:53):
pass up.
Whatever it could possibly be,it's still.
It's just going to.
When you, when you see thatline of the balance going down
and then spiking back up andgiving away two months of
progress, that is emotionallydefeating.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, it was like me yesterday at lunch, when I had
six slices of pizza from BellaRosie and I probably needed two
yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, I mean that pizza is amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
So it is amazing and I can't wait to have it again.
I'm going to have it the nexttime we come up.
But when you work with clientstoo, could you maybe paint a
picture of what it's like forpeople when they finally do see
their credit card balance hitzero or a bill that's been with
collections or anything like inthe debt?
(22:35):
We'll just call it the debtumbrella.
You know what's that like forthem when they actually pay it
off.
Like what do you see?
What do you hear?
What are they feeling?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So the best I can, because I feel like there's a
short answer and a long answerand the answer that's everyone's
different and has their ownexperience.
So let me try and use a reason.
I have a recent kind of example.
So I had a client couple whoI've been with for over probably
almost two years at this point,and they had a lot of debt and
(23:05):
they were, you know, and we didthe old and they didn't, they
didn't want to do anythingdrastic to like affect their
credit scores and all this kindof stuff.
So for like a year and a halfor so we just dutifully kind of
set up the cash flow plan andsaid, ok, we're going to try and
chip away at the debt, we'regoing to use your budget and
we're going to keep reviewingthis and the accountability and
(23:26):
all that.
But it gets to a point where itfeels very idle and it feels
like you're almost then stuck ina pattern with the client of
like doing the same, likebeating your head against the
wall, of like doing the samelike beating your head against
the wall, um and so and thething with us a lot of us,
people with adhd and just peoplein general, but at least for me
, and, um, you can be kind ofstubborn sometimes to accept
(23:49):
freely advice when they finallycame to the conclusion that they
needed to do something drastic.
So we were basically going likesideways, like the debt wasn't
going up, which was good, likethey stopped building it, but it
was just sideways.
And the interest payments,interest payments.
They finally decided to dosomething that I had been
suggesting for a while andrecently I got the email saying
(24:10):
like we've got our first bigcard paid off.
He also had another win.
That was a legal win, but, uh,like the you could, I feel the
energy change.
Like they, like I feel, I canjust feel that their commitment,
their engagement justskyrockets and they feel that
hope and that desire to keepgoing where before it was just
(24:31):
like hanging on by a thread.
Um, so that's what?
And then it gets infectious.
And that's what I try and get,for everyone is to get to that
tipping point of infectiousness,and you can't do that by making
your first goal be I'm going topay off thirty thousand dollars
a credit card debt this yearwon't without giving yourself
(25:04):
little wins along the way, whichis huge, even if it's like I
put 50 in my savings accountthis month.
Yeah, it's like dude.
You haven't done that in years,so pat yourself on the back, go
to the mirror, saycongratulations, what a win.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Let's do it again yeah, and it starts with those
little things over those smallertime frames do it again.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, and it starts with those little things over
those smaller time frames.
Yeah, because the one of thewith it, with, with, with adhd,
we one of the biggest things westruggle with and with our
executive functioning isfollowing through and finishing
things.
But we start a ton of stuff butwe never finish.
And when you don't finish, youdon't.
And this is like, if you, Idon't there's an Andrew Huberman
(25:42):
episode about this.
If you don't close these loopsand finish things, you don't get
the, the dopamine.
You leave it, you leave it onthe shelf and it doesn't come to
you.
Doesn't come to you.
Uh, and I want to try and findthat episode and put it in the
(26:04):
in the description.
But you have to close.
It's like a dope, dope of dopeof majornix yeah, this is why I
didn't go into science right,but loop or something, you have
to close the loop.
So, even if it's like thesmallest possible thing, just
give yourself a ton of littleclosed loops, because then you
start building up thatself-efficacy Like I finished
something, I finished something,you can do it, and it builds on
top of each other, on itself,and before you know it, you're
(26:25):
just doing bigger and biggerthings.
But if you have to start at thesmallest possible thing, like
literally the smallest thing foranything, like I got out of bed
on time, huge win, like,celebrate, be like.
Holy crap, I did it.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Man, it's crazy how hardwired we are to not do that
and not do these types of things, how much that keeps people
stuck right.
We feel like we have to takethese swings for the fence Every
day.
With everything that we do,there's all or nothing, black or
white thinking.
You know finances, health,relationships, whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
A hundred percent.
It's brutal and it sets us upfor repeated failure over and
over again.
It's kind of like when a newlike, because the top things I
get from people who areinterested in working with me or
you know, debt, budgeting,whatever, but a lot of them will
have the most intense budgetingspreadsheet I've ever seen in
my life that they bring to meand this, like I've, and, and
(27:29):
you can just tell how mucheffort and you can.
You can just feel the hyperfixation that existed for that
period when they were settingthis thing up.
But then, because you overengineer and talk about over
engineering that is my middlename when you over engineer the
(27:51):
thing that's supposed to helpyou do something, the
maintenance of it isoverwhelming because you've
created this monster.
It's beautiful and it works,but it's too complicated and
then as soon as you lose thatlittle bit of motivation, it
just feels like a mountain andyou don't do it, yep, then it
(28:15):
goes to the graveyard.
Yeah.
So if I were to be like, okay,scratch every single thing you
could possibly do to setyourself up for this winter arc
thing.
Getting back to the New Year'sresolution, if it's like I want
to save, maybe your overall justobjective is like money, you
want to do better at money.
It's like, what am I going todo?
You'd make it as, make it assimple as you possibly can to
(28:36):
see a result that feels good.
Like, okay, if I were to askyou where do you spend too much
money, you'll probably be ableto know instantly.
If it's like getting DoorDash,okay, don't get DoorDash this
month or don't get DoorDash thisweek.
And then, if you have abudgeting app, go and look at
(28:59):
your spending that this weekversus the previous weeks and
see how much less you spent.
And then imagine what you coulddo with the difference if you
did that more weeks and justkeep mindsetting yourself into
that.
But like, what is the smallestthing you can do?
Save five bucks a week, week, adollar a day.
Like what can you do to see theprogress going?
(29:21):
And then just like, yeah, youget what I'm saying.
I guess I think, yeah, yeah, Ithink I know what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
We talked like just to put the the.
So there were three questionsgoing into setting up a winner
arc or just setting up a goalfor yourself, and I think we're
kind of on the third one rightnow.
The first two, just to remindeverybody why am I doing this in
the first place?
Second one in what specificways will I benefit from doing
this once it's done, once I'veachieved it?
(29:48):
The third what will help mestay consistent moving forward
as I try to do this?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
yeah, like, and I just think you're covering the
what was the second question?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
The second question in what specific ways will I,
how am I specifically going tobenefit from doing this?
What's it going to look like?
What's the movie going to looklike?
Okay, how am I going to feel?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, so we did that.
And on the benefits too, I wouldjust I would encourage you to
get get pen to paper, get actualhand like handwrite like the
benefits, like write down thebenefits and write down the
consequences of not.
You want to write down theconsequences of not because
(30:36):
sometimes they we avoid, uh,accepting them as real, and if
you write it down it may hithome a little bit more, and then
kind of having that writtendown means that you can then
re-look at it.
So, staying consistent, part ofthat is constant re-exposure to
(30:56):
what you were intending to doin the first place, because for
me it's like I can't tell youhow many times I've thought of
something, like how many microplans I've set to change my life
, that I forget within a week.
And then I'll find myself inbed one night, being like just
swimming with thoughts, and belike what was it that?
(31:17):
Like I was just focusing onsomething and I don't even know.
Like what was it that?
I was just focusing onsomething and I don't even know
what am I doing.
Now I'm doing this.
You get all over the place.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So if you have.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
if you deeply reflect on what you want and you get it
written down, then hang it upsomewhere, somehow revisit it.
Hang it up somewhere, somehowrevisit it.
I don't necessarily recommendphone reminders unless you
actually do well with them,because I do not do well with
phone stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I do somehow.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You do yeah, yeah, I do yeah you can't really
generalize the ADHD crowd onthat, but I know from you, know
a lot of my clients like phonereminders.
If there's too many reminderssometimes it's the amount of
reminders they become backgroundnoise and you just like
instinctually, literally justignore them, like as though they
(32:06):
don't exist.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, once you have you know more than I'd say, two
or more.
For me that's when it turnsinto background noise.
So you got to know your systemand what's going to work for you
for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, like everyone knows, who listened to the first
episode of this podcast or thesecond, I don't remember at this
point was you hang it up.
You hang up your one page planon your fridge.
Um, but you know it, you, youknow yourself best, because even
for me, like, if I do it on thefridge, I still could
definitely turn that into aperipheral object that I never
(32:39):
really actually look at again.
So you have to.
And then another principle thatgoes along with this is
constantly change it, like notchange the intention and the
goal, but change the methods tokeep it fresh.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Novelty, novelty.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So if it's like like I do that on my budget, on my on
monarch all the time, like Ievery quarter, I feel like I'm
restructuring the way that I'mgoing to start tracking yeah
because it gets stale.
And then I'm like, yeah, likewhat's a new way to like get
more interesting insights.
Like what's a new?
Like just keep everything novelon repeat yeah, yeah, I guess
(33:22):
we have thoughts.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, always thoughts .
We have many thoughts, a lot ofthoughts.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So in doing and achieving goals, there's a
saying right.
What's the saying about?
It's not the destination, butthe journey.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I think that's it.
Is that what it is?
Yeah, I think that's it.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's kind of like when you finally get the day you
get the gift you've beenwaiting for forever is the day
that everything starts to feelboring again, like you're the
least excited after you'veopened the present.
You're the most excited waitingfor the present anticipation
that anticipation is where andthis is totally scientific,
(34:06):
because I listened to way toomuch Andrew Huberman, well, not
too much, you can't listen totoo much Andrew Huberman, but it
is the dopamine is active inthe chase.
The dopamine comes from thechase, the, the chase.
(34:27):
So, with that said, when you'redoing visualization, you also
want to visualize yourself doingdoing what it like a visual,
visualize yourself doing thethings you got to do to reach
your little goals okay andthat's important for so many
reasons.
Um uh, another like it's.
It's important for so that youactually can see yourself like
(34:48):
doing it.
You have to be able to seeyourself doing something before
you can really do it.
And also because when you'reconfronted with the point of
decision, which is where we allstruggle, which is, we can plan
up any, we can dream up anything, but when it comes to the
moment that you have to execute,that's when it's we fall short.
If you've pre-visualized howyou're going to react to a
(35:10):
situation, you're far morelikely to subconsciously make
the better choice.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
And when you're in that moment, it's not going to
feel like Like you have tosummon all of this crazy
willpower, right?
Or like you're I don't want tosay hating yourself into making
the decision, but you're likebrute forcing your way into it.
Right, because you visualizethat you already have the
program.
You've already been there,you've already made the decision
(35:39):
.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, yeah, program, you've already, you've already
been there, you've already madethe decision.
Yeah, yeah, you don't have tolike, bring your notebook and
have like, you're like okay,when I'm confronted with this
decision, I will do, I willpause and I will think and
reflect like I mean, that's,that's not really practical at
all.
And you don't have to do that,because the part of the problem
is that this is what's alwayskind of been hard for me to wrap
(36:01):
my head around when we hear theADHD tips and the hacks and all
that about the pausing andabout the like, like.
For me it's been really hard toenact any of those things,
because it's in that point ofdecision where everything is
gone crosswired and I'm leastcapable to remember or do any of
those things, to remember or doany of those things.
(36:22):
So it's like you have topre-plan In a controlled
environment, how you're going toreact In those situations, in a
way, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Totally, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
So is there anything else?
I feel like.
I feel like we've said a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
So we covered what winner arcs are.
Three questions to ask yourselfwhen setting a winner arc or
just going into a goal ingeneral, oh, I want to say more
things.
Okay, I have more things to say.
More things to say more things.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Okay, I have more things to say, more things to
say.
So we're thinking about.
We always hear like breakdowngoals into small tasks or
whatever.
I think, I've fallen into thetrap of breaking them down into
not small enough tasks, but alsonot practical small things.
(37:22):
Like it's kind of like ifyou're just sitting at a
computer breaking it down, it'slike you kind of aren't seeing
like the real story or the realpicture of how it's going to
play out.
So like what I'm trying to getto is that if the goal is to I'm
going to use an example ofworkout then before you even
make the goal to work out, thisis actually going to feel like a
(37:45):
very not cohesive idea, but Ithink you'll get the principle.
Instead of saying I'm goinglike if I don't work out
tomorrow, I'm a failure, youjust say if I lay out workout
clothes and put them in my bagin the morning, that's the win.
Don't even expect yourself togo work out, because that could
be adding one too many things.
(38:07):
If you can just get yourclothes in the bag for a week,
then you may find yourself thenstarting to go and then, when
you go, be like just work outfor five minutes.
Once you hit five minutes, youget that check.
You've checked it off.
Yeah, and we haven't mentionedlike grace and self-forgiveness.
(38:28):
That's huge in all of this.
The one day you slip up mean, ifyou interpret that as a message
to yourself that I knew it, Iknew I couldn't really do it,
I'm just a failure, then that'ssuper self-defeating and I feel
like a lot of us have been thereand it's not fun.
So we really want to work onjust saying it's okay, or you
(38:54):
can't let that stop, you can'tlet that not, you can't let that
not.
Have you go tomorrow, orsomething like that.
I know where you're going.
Language is hard, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's what we wanted to talk about, and we did it in
true ADHD fashion.
I feel like True ADHD fashion.
Don't try and do something forthe whole year and don't make a
huge crazy goal.
Do the winter arc it's athree-month phase that you get
to change and reinvent.
So you get the novelty ofsomething, adjusting it, and
keep the first step as small asyou possibly can, be super
(39:30):
connected to it.
Do visualization figure out thewhy that really means something
to you and then you can startto make some progress stacking
them wins stack wins, littletiny wins, and give yourself
acknowledgement for them.
Build up self-efficacy so thatyou start to subconsciously
(39:52):
internalize that you aresomebody who gets little wins
instead of is someone whoconstantly doesn't finish things
and doesn't close the loop onthings, because that's just
reinforcing the message toyourself that you'll just keep
doing that because that's whoyou are, or whatever.
So we don't want that.
So if, even if the win has tobe, I poured a bowl of cereal
(40:15):
for myself this morning becauseI want to start eating breakfast
, win, acknowledge it, take itoff.
So yeah, that's what we got foryou.
I hope you enjoyed listening toa rusty ramble of a podcast for
the last, however long it's been.
We need to work on our ending,so we're going to get out of
here.
Please go to Spotify and Applepodcasts and give the show you
(40:36):
know some love so we can getthis thing rocking and rolling
again.
And show up in all the searchesand hopefully that kind of
stuff.
And go to ADHD money talk dotcom if you want to see past
episodes or ask us a questionthat we could answer on the show
potentially.
And yeah, so we'll talk to yousoon.
We're out of here, you.
In 2024, the ADHD Money Talk podcast did two
episodes that hurt.
In 2022, we did one everysingle week, I believe.
In 2023, we did almost everyweek, and in 2024, we did two.
So me, dave, burned out prettyhard.
(00:20):
So my business was getting big,but also my ADHD brain was
having a hard time staying ontop of everything and things
started to fall off.
And so the last six months orso, it's been like Dave in the
cave, hibernating, resting in away, making things less
(00:40):
complicated, shrinking onpurpose the kinds of things that
sometimes you just have toaccept that you got to do which
was very hard to accept, andit's like you don't really feel
like you've accepted it untilit's already been happening and
you're like, oh, now I see whatmy brain was trying to do.
But anyways, we've beenretooling.
I have someone now working withme named Max, and he's going to
(01:03):
be on the podcast from now on.
So let's cut right to the chaseand just let you know that in
2025, we're going to do biweekly episodes.
We're going to have Max on heretoo, as, like my co host,
because it will make it moreconversational.
It'll help make the prep forpodcasts not as difficult
because doing a solo podcast ifyou have anything if you've ever
done a podcast solo, you wouldknow that it's harder, because
(01:28):
you kind of have to beentertaining by yourself the
whole time as best as youpossibly can and you get in your
head a lot and then you're like, if you're perfectionistic
sometimes you're like hittingstop, re-record, stop, re-record
, like until you feel likeyou're going insane.
So that's so.
It's going to be easier to beconsistent.
We're going to bring outepisodes every two weeks.
We're going to talk about allkinds of stuff.
(01:49):
Hopefully we'll get some guestson if we feel like we have the
time to do the whole schedulingthing and can manage that.
But we'll be able to come upwith stuff to talk about.
It's going to stay the same asit was before Vulnerable, raw,
transparent, not ashamed to saythe mistakes that we make
relatable.
All of the things that I thinkmade the podcast somewhat
(02:13):
successful or at least I felt itwas somewhat successful in the
first place was because mostpeople would reach out and say,
hey, I appreciate you talkingabout this so raw and being so
vulnerable and transparent.
So that's what we're going tostay with, while also giving you
all the tips, the ideas andwhat you need to help.
Let's get into the episode.
So it's me and Max Moclockwho's been working with me.
(02:34):
He's got a great radio voiceYou're going to like it.
He's got a consultingbackground and he's been helping
me stay sane while I rebuild mybusiness.
And in the near future you'llstart to hear more about the new
offers we have, the new thingswe're doing in the back Lots of
exciting stuff.
So stay tuned, come back in,listen to us, go to
(02:56):
ADHDMoneyTalkcom and ask aquestion, leave a voicemail and
get in the conversation and juststay tuned because we got a lot
of cool stuff coming.
So that's enough of this.
Let's get into the episode.
We're talking about winter arc,new Year's resolution, and
we're flipping it all on itshead and saying something fresh
about New Year's resolutionswith people with ADHD.
And bear with us while ouron-camera and on-microphone
(03:19):
chemistry starts to blossom.
Could be a little awkward atfirst, but that's okay, we'll
figure it out.
All right, let's get into it.
Welcome back to ADHD Money Talk, the show that helps you figure
(03:47):
out money with ADHD.
It's as simple as that, andwe're back after a long hiatus
super long.
But just watch out, because wemight get one done and then
never show up again, or we mightget on a roll.
We'll see.
We're going to find out soon.
So, guess what?
We have someone else going tobe talking Instead of just me
powering through.
(04:07):
We've got Max, who's beenhelping me out, and it's his
first time ever talking to thepublic, to all 10 of you who
listen to the show.
So, max, say hello, introduceyourself.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
What's up Dave, what's up guys?
It's good to be here.
I'm feeling more of the gettingon a roll vibe here for 2025.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, we're going to get on a roll and it's going to
be beautiful, and we're going tohave some new things coming out
, which is going to be cool.
So stay tuned.
But, yeah, we've been in thewar room for a while figuring
out our next moves hence thecontent hiatus, moves, hence the
(04:48):
content hiatus.
But we're about ready to comeback out and go hard and bring
you guys some good content thatwill help you with your money in
a way that at least feelssomewhat approachable, because
we know money is prettyunapproachable for a lot of us,
which is understandable.
So we're going to start offthis new wave of the ADHD Money
Talk podcast talking about NewYear's resolutions.
(05:08):
So, have you ever heard of thewinter arc?
Have you ever heard of it, max?
Have you heard of the winter?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
arc.
So the winter arc is reallyjust an approach to setting
goals that breaks things downinto a more manageable time
frame.
Right, it gets you in a frameof mind that you're just
changing habits.
You're not making these crazylifestyle adjustments for an
entire year like a new year'sresolution.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, that's basically what I got from it.
So I read a couple articles.
One was called what is itwinter arc?
So thankfully they did answerthe question.
But it's kind of like you havethree months left of the year
and what a lot of people mightdo.
What I do is it gets dark andcold out and it's a little bit
(05:55):
icky and there's always holidays, so I kind of just like start
getting to the couch a littlebit sooner, get the snacks a
little bit sooner, binge eat,just go into my comfort, my
creature comforts, hard, and sothen.
So then basically I come up toJanuary and I'm like, oh, I'm
going to work out, but I'veliterally went 10 steps
backwards in those last threemonths.
(06:16):
So it's kind of likepre-priming for a new year's
resolution, like getting warmedup.
Is that kind of what you gotfrom it?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, it's like getting some momentum going so
you don't have to really crusheverything at once.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
yeah yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah.
And like in some of these inthis article, they're talking
about some like on in the, onthe, on the socials, people are
like getting up at 5 am anddoing crazy workouts and stuff
and like that's like, for Idon't know, maybe they really
are doing that.
I'm going to give them thebenefit of the doubt, but it's
(06:49):
not for me.
For me, it'd be like I'm goingto brush my teeth for an extra
10 seconds today and that's awin.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
There you go.
I think one of the biggestthings is the whole mindset
shift, because I remember in oneof the articles I think it was
either a psychologist or acounselor she said you know,
don't jump to the big things.
If you want to lose weight,make your goal weight realistic.
Like, for example, right now,if I say I want to lose 20
(07:20):
pounds, that's probably going totake me I don't know how long,
I don't know exactly how tobreak down a 20 pound weight
loss and I don't know if Ireally want to do the things
that are going to, you know, berequired for me to lose 20
pounds.
So I just said to myself thismorning when I was leaving you
know what, I'm just going tolose five pounds and that's
going to be it.
And bringing things down atthat level feels much more
(07:43):
manageable for, like my ADHD,you know like there's not as
much pressure to do this, thiscrusade towards a big grand goal
right now yeah, not nearly asmuch pressure and you can give
yourself a reward for gettingthose five pounds.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
And like when I would do my weight loss journeys,
because I've had about six ofthem in my vicious cycle of lose
, then gain and lose and gain,I've had the most success
tracking carefully, but that'salso hard to manage.
But I also had success takingpictures of myself to see like
(08:22):
changes that you did the picture, I did pictures like two of on
two of my cycles.
Yeah, I would take pictures inthe mirror and then I would.
I would be able to see theevolution and I think seeing it
and just even just looking atyourself and being like you're
okay, dave, you look good, Ithink that that kind of stuff is
helpful.
I really do that positiveself-talk that's it.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
It's huge.
Yes, it's totally huge.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So what the experts say about this winter arc,
though, is that you want to berealistic and you don't want to
make goals that are way tooidealistic, which is why they
say that 88% of people who set aNew Year's resolution don't
make it into february stickingto it, because they're just
unrealistic and they are way tooidealistic and for me and for
the adhd side of things it.
(09:17):
I always get caught up thinkingabout the um, I get infatuated
with the feeling of the outcomeand I just skip the process.
I just go right to holy crap,like I want to look like that,
let's do it.
And so the process usually goes.
What's the most extreme way?
(09:40):
I can do this as fast aspossible.
It's like I'm going to buy thisworkout package, I'm going to
follow it and I'm going to justgo hard every day.
Don't miss a day, and if I missa day, you're like, ah, it's
over, I lost, I failed.
It means I'm a total failure.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I missed one day.
Total failure and that's theexact same thing for budgeting
too for me is if I go over onecategory limit that I may have
set for myself, no matter howarbitrary it was.
If I go over a category limit,or if I skip a few days of
categorizing transactions, or ifI do have an impulse purchase
that is like $250, $500, that'sa lot for me.
(10:20):
I'll then abandon ship.
I won't look at my monarch forprobably two weeks.
I'll come back.
There'll be 88 transactions youknow I'll be overwhelmed you
have 88 transactions to reviewmax.
Yeah, you, piece of crap goodluck.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Exactly what a feeling.
And then you put it down andnext time you get it there's 250
yep.
So I guess I to I wanted tomention that the whole you know,
thinking about this topic, thelittle nugget of epiphany that I
had was that we ADHD people,generally speaking, shouldn't
(10:55):
really I mean, maybe weshouldn't think about doing New
Year's resolutions where you'remaking this goal for 2025 and
actually thinking you're goingto stick to it and actually
thinking you're going to stickto it.
Maybe we should just have aseries of winter arcs where
we're literally adding the onesmallest next thing we can do to
move towards the objective.
And I think that's important.
(11:15):
And let's talk about thinkingabout the objective Like, what
should the objective be?
Because I feel like there'ssome pitfalls people fall into
with coming up with a goal.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, like in the first place, even figuring out
what it is they want to do,whether it's a winner arc or
your weekly goal or anything.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, figuring out what you want to do.
What's the motivation behindthe goal.
Is it really truly somethingyou genuinely want and are
connected to, or does it feellike an obligation or something
like that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So, before trying to white-knuckle your way into
goals and I'm just doing thisfor the first time now because,
like we've talked about here,you know, I've kind of just
picked an arbitrary goal that Ifelt super passionate about,
focused on, threw a bunch ofmoney at and then, you know, let
fall by the wayside I'm tryingto ask these questions and go
(12:19):
into it with a little moreintention this time.
So something like askingyourself why am I even doing
this in the first place?
You know, am I setting a goalbecause I want to do this, or
because I just feel like Ishould, because I've seen other
people post about this?
Or I'm X age, I just turned 30and I feel like by the time
(12:42):
you're 30, you need to do this,or by the time you're 30, you
need to do this, or by the timeyou're 40, you need to have this
done.
And that'll help really informhow you're going to carry the
purpose of the goal with youthroughout the whole time that
you're doing this.
Because whether it's a winnerarc or whether it's something
else like if you don't reallyhave a strong why, or if it's
not really coming from the rightplace, whether it's fitness,
(13:04):
finances, hobbies, relationships.
It's probably not going to lastthat long, and I'm just
speaking from my experience here.
I've crashed and burned plentyof times when it comes to this
stuff.
Having that strong, why, likewhy, are you even doing these
things in the first place?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, I think that's super important, and anyone who
has, who's actually stuck withthis podcast through the break
and has listened to my earlyones, you know how much of a
stickler I was for why, on thatone-page financial plan that I
wanted everyone to try and do,the top thing you put on it was
what is your money purpose?
What is the purpose?
(13:40):
And you got there by doing alot of deep reflection.
You couldn't just, you couldn'tbe following a fad or following
what your friends are doing orwhat your colleagues are doing.
It had to be deeply felt andconnected to in order for it to
have any staying power, let'ssay.
And so and I think in this, inthese articles in one of them
(14:04):
they say she made a really goodpoint the winter arc is about
setting goals for yourself, likemany do, and sticking to them
without outside support cheeringyou on.
It means reinventing yourself,even just bettering yourself, or
even just bettering yourself insome way, without the
expectation that anyone else isgoing to notice or care.
(14:25):
So it's true, yeah, it's allabout that motivation.
And why are you doing it?
And one of the things that I'mtrying to do better at and I
know the power of it like I,rationally and intellectually
know the power of it.
But it is hard for us with adhdto really truly visualize our
(14:45):
future selves in the state thatwe want to be in.
But it's more than just seeinga picture, but it's seeing the
movie.
You know, it's like seeing themovie of your life with these
accomplishments and feeling theair that you breathe in in the
morning when you have no debtanymore, and putting yourself in
that environment whereeverything is calm.
(15:09):
And how do you feel when youwalk downstairs and make
breakfast?
How do you feel now?
What are the thoughts racingthrough your mind and what will
your thoughts be then?
What are the things that you'llbe able to focus on and put
your attention to?
That you can't today, becauseyou have all this kind of hum of
chaos and uncertainty andlimited choice, even because
(15:31):
when you have like debt, likewe've talked about, it can
really keep you trapped in thisprison of limited options and
kind of like ongoing subtle fear.
So the visualization, reallyfeeling it, deeply Meditating on
(15:54):
it, doing self-hypnosis on it,whatever it takes to get it into
your subconscious, that is whoyou are.
And then I've also read a lotabout and really relate to the
idea of reading that future youthat you visualized into your
current state, like into yourcurrent mindset.
So it's almost like saying I dohave what it takes, I am on the
(16:16):
path, I am worthy of it.
So I think all this mental workand this is what I drill into
all of my clients is this mentalwork is absolutely key for goal
achievement, financial orotherwise.
Not just throwing money at itcan't throw money at it and you
can't go on the continual umtreadmill of rationalization, um
(16:44):
of.
Oh yeah, look, I kind of didbetter here.
It kind of works there, butI'll do it next month you can't,
you know there's certain timeswhere you have to be super
honest with yourself and catchyourself rationalizing yourself
into a temporary safe space.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, yeah, and then just blaming, just blaming, your
ADHD.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, you really can't do that.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Don't just use it as a cop out.
I'm raising, I'm raising myhand here.
Yeah, no doubt that.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I need to so.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So yeah, I mean I think connecting with your why
in the first place is the firstbig piece to sort of creating a
successful winner arc Right.
I mean, the second thing, orthe second question that I think
you started to get intoanswering a little bit, was in
what specific ways will Ibenefit from making these
changes?
So I really liked how you saidview the movie, don't look at
(17:38):
the picture Like, don't justhave the picture flash in front
of you Like.
Start to get that repetition ofseeing what your life is going
to look like when you achieve oryou hit this goal or you
implement some new behavior orhabit in your daily life,
because that makes it a lot morereal than just kind of having a
flash, at least I think, inpictures sometimes just kind of
(17:58):
having a flash of that pictureand then just jumping right to
the next thought that you havefor or or not, really ingraining
the emotion with what you'reactually shooting for.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
No, I get what you're saying because it's like you
have the flash.
I I definitely experienced theflash of the image, the instant
kind of surge of like I wouldcall it strong but not well
built, foundationally motivation, and I lunge into it.
What?
And that could even be animpulsive purchase, where it's
like if I get this thing, it'sgoing to make my journey to this
(18:34):
goal happen.
Like this thing will do it.
You get the flash.
I'm going to use a real exampleof something that I've done
recently.
There's like a thousand of them.
I can't think of one.
If I buy this massage gun, I'mgoing to not be sore and that'll
(18:56):
make me go to the gym.
Boom bought it.
Barely use it.
That kind of thing, because Istill do that.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Oh yeah, I did it the other day.
I bought a it's this lower backheating massager strap thing,
and is it going to work?
I don't know.
Did I really need it?
Probably not.
We'll see when it gets here.
I don't know, Did I really needit?
Probably not.
We'll see when it gets here.
I don't know, maybe I'll bejumping around when my back is
in perfect shape after I've usedthis $40, you know, back
(19:27):
massager off of Amazon.
I doubt it.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Hey, man, 40 bucks though it's at least, at least
that's a in magnitude uh, notthe worst thing.
From what I can tell about you,max, I think you do a pretty, I
think you're.
You're like, you go to thelibrary, like that's, like,
that's awesome.
I, I do go to the library, yeah, and like like I was explaining
, uh, I'm like I'm gonna readthis book, so I'll buy it right
now, and then I never do.
(19:49):
Or I buy it on audible and thenI have.
So I probably have 100 books onaudible and I've probably read
30 of them yeah, yeah.
And then I keep buying new onesthat I want to read and then I
may never get to it.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Oh wait, I was going to say okay on that note.
So how you brought up you knowthe, the movie and tying
emotions to it.
I think like a practical exampleof that that I just had written
down, was emergency funds a lotright?
Was emergency funds a lot right?
Like people needing emergencyfunds not just so they can have
(20:22):
an arbitrary amount of money intheir bank account, but because
when there's an expense thatcomes down or when stuff hits
the fan, you save that money,not so you can just have the
money, but so that you can feelconfident and you can feel pride
of knowing that when that thingdoes happen it does come down
(20:42):
the pike you can totally coverit without putting it onto a
credit card or without it goingto collections and stressing
about it and like for real, likewe've all been there when that
has happened, but it's not idealand that's not that like.
That's the type of thing thatkind of keeps you in those
cycles where you're not reallybreaking out of it.
So like tying that pride andthat confidence in the future.
(21:04):
You know, I think that that canreally help as you're going
about this for the first time.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, when we're talking about building up
financial stability, so manypeople want to jump straight to
debt payoff if they have creditcard debt and they overlook
having any buffer.
And I was actually talking to aclient earlier this week about
this and you know I always saywhat I gotta say about, like you
(21:31):
should have an emergency fund.
But it's nice to see when aclient finally has their own
realization where, like, I thinkI'm flying a little too close
to the sun.
I think it's time to have alittle bit of a cushion, because
it's very defeating to go tothe credit card that you've been
trying to dutifully pay offwhen something comes up that's
unplanned, an emergency or justsomething that's too good to
(21:53):
pass up.
Whatever it could possibly be,it's still.
It's just going to.
When you, when you see thatline of the balance going down
and then spiking back up andgiving away two months of
progress, that is emotionallydefeating.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, it was like me yesterday at lunch, when I had
six slices of pizza from BellaRosie and I probably needed two
yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, I mean that pizza is amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
So it is amazing and I can't wait to have it again.
I'm going to have it the nexttime we come up.
But when you work with clientstoo, could you maybe paint a
picture of what it's like forpeople when they finally do see
their credit card balance hitzero or a bill that's been with
collections or anything like inthe debt?
(22:35):
We'll just call it the debtumbrella.
You know what's that like forthem when they actually pay it
off.
Like what do you see?
What do you hear?
What are they feeling?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So the best I can, because I feel like there's a
short answer and a long answerand the answer that's everyone's
different and has their ownexperience.
So let me try and use a reason.
I have a recent kind of example.
So I had a client couple whoI've been with for over probably
almost two years at this point,and they had a lot of debt and
(23:05):
they were, you know, and we didthe old and they didn't, they
didn't want to do anythingdrastic to like affect their
credit scores and all this kindof stuff.
So for like a year and a halfor so we just dutifully kind of
set up the cash flow plan andsaid, ok, we're going to try and
chip away at the debt, we'regoing to use your budget and
we're going to keep reviewingthis and the accountability and
(23:26):
all that.
But it gets to a point where itfeels very idle and it feels
like you're almost then stuck ina pattern with the client of
like doing the same, likebeating your head against the
wall, of like doing the samelike beating your head against
the wall, um and so and thething with us a lot of us,
people with adhd and just peoplein general, but at least for me
, and, um, you can be kind ofstubborn sometimes to accept
(23:49):
freely advice when they finallycame to the conclusion that they
needed to do something drastic.
So we were basically going likesideways, like the debt wasn't
going up, which was good, likethey stopped building it, but it
was just sideways.
And the interest payments,interest payments.
They finally decided to dosomething that I had been
suggesting for a while andrecently I got the email saying
(24:10):
like we've got our first bigcard paid off.
He also had another win.
That was a legal win, but, uh,like the you could, I feel the
energy change.
Like they, like I feel, I canjust feel that their commitment,
their engagement justskyrockets and they feel that
hope and that desire to keepgoing where before it was just
(24:31):
like hanging on by a thread.
Um, so that's what?
And then it gets infectious.
And that's what I try and get,for everyone is to get to that
tipping point of infectiousness,and you can't do that by making
your first goal be I'm going topay off thirty thousand dollars
a credit card debt this yearwon't without giving yourself
(25:04):
little wins along the way, whichis huge, even if it's like I
put 50 in my savings accountthis month.
Yeah, it's like dude.
You haven't done that in years,so pat yourself on the back, go
to the mirror, saycongratulations, what a win.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Let's do it again yeah, and it starts with those
little things over those smallertime frames do it again.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, and it starts with those little things over
those smaller time frames.
Yeah, because the one of thewith it, with, with, with adhd,
we one of the biggest things westruggle with and with our
executive functioning isfollowing through and finishing
things.
But we start a ton of stuff butwe never finish.
And when you don't finish, youdon't.
And this is like, if you, Idon't there's an Andrew Huberman
(25:42):
episode about this.
If you don't close these loopsand finish things, you don't get
the, the dopamine.
You leave it, you leave it onthe shelf and it doesn't come to
you.
Doesn't come to you.
Uh, and I want to try and findthat episode and put it in the
(26:04):
in the description.
But you have to close.
It's like a dope, dope of dopeof majornix yeah, this is why I
didn't go into science right,but loop or something, you have
to close the loop.
So, even if it's like thesmallest possible thing, just
give yourself a ton of littleclosed loops, because then you
start building up thatself-efficacy Like I finished
something, I finished something,you can do it, and it builds on
top of each other, on itself,and before you know it, you're
(26:25):
just doing bigger and biggerthings.
But if you have to start at thesmallest possible thing, like
literally the smallest thing foranything, like I got out of bed
on time, huge win, like,celebrate, be like.
Holy crap, I did it.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Man, it's crazy how hardwired we are to not do that
and not do these types of things, how much that keeps people
stuck right.
We feel like we have to takethese swings for the fence Every
day.
With everything that we do,there's all or nothing, black or
white thinking.
You know finances, health,relationships, whatever.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
A hundred percent.
It's brutal and it sets us upfor repeated failure over and
over again.
It's kind of like when a newlike, because the top things I
get from people who areinterested in working with me or
you know, debt, budgeting,whatever, but a lot of them will
have the most intense budgetingspreadsheet I've ever seen in
my life that they bring to meand this, like I've, and, and
(27:29):
you can just tell how mucheffort and you can.
You can just feel the hyperfixation that existed for that
period when they were settingthis thing up.
But then, because you overengineer and talk about over
engineering that is my middlename when you over engineer the
(27:51):
thing that's supposed to helpyou do something, the
maintenance of it isoverwhelming because you've
created this monster.
It's beautiful and it works,but it's too complicated and
then as soon as you lose thatlittle bit of motivation, it
just feels like a mountain andyou don't do it, yep, then it
(28:15):
goes to the graveyard.
Yeah.
So if I were to be like, okay,scratch every single thing you
could possibly do to setyourself up for this winter arc
thing.
Getting back to the New Year'sresolution, if it's like I want
to save, maybe your overall justobjective is like money, you
want to do better at money.
It's like, what am I going todo?
You'd make it as, make it assimple as you possibly can to
(28:36):
see a result that feels good.
Like, okay, if I were to askyou where do you spend too much
money, you'll probably be ableto know instantly.
If it's like getting DoorDash,okay, don't get DoorDash this
month or don't get DoorDash thisweek.
And then, if you have abudgeting app, go and look at
(28:59):
your spending that this weekversus the previous weeks and
see how much less you spent.
And then imagine what you coulddo with the difference if you
did that more weeks and justkeep mindsetting yourself into
that.
But like, what is the smallestthing you can do?
Save five bucks a week, week, adollar a day.
Like what can you do to see theprogress going?
(29:21):
And then just like, yeah, youget what I'm saying.
I guess I think, yeah, yeah, Ithink I know what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
We talked like just to put the the.
So there were three questionsgoing into setting up a winner
arc or just setting up a goalfor yourself, and I think we're
kind of on the third one rightnow.
The first two, just to remindeverybody why am I doing this in
the first place?
Second one in what specificways will I benefit from doing
this once it's done, once I'veachieved it?
(29:48):
The third what will help mestay consistent moving forward
as I try to do this?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
yeah, like, and I just think you're covering the
what was the second question?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
The second question in what specific ways will I,
how am I specifically going tobenefit from doing this?
What's it going to look like?
What's the movie going to looklike?
Okay, how am I going to feel?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yeah, so we did that.
And on the benefits too, I wouldjust I would encourage you to
get get pen to paper, get actualhand like handwrite like the
benefits, like write down thebenefits and write down the
consequences of not.
You want to write down theconsequences of not because
(30:36):
sometimes they we avoid, uh,accepting them as real, and if
you write it down it may hithome a little bit more, and then
kind of having that writtendown means that you can then
re-look at it.
So, staying consistent, part ofthat is constant re-exposure to
(30:56):
what you were intending to doin the first place, because for
me it's like I can't tell youhow many times I've thought of
something, like how many microplans I've set to change my life
, that I forget within a week.
And then I'll find myself inbed one night, being like just
swimming with thoughts, and belike what was it that?
(31:17):
Like I was just focusing onsomething and I don't even know.
Like what was it that?
I was just focusing onsomething and I don't even know
what am I doing.
Now I'm doing this.
You get all over the place.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So if you have.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
if you deeply reflect on what you want and you get it
written down, then hang it upsomewhere, somehow revisit it.
Hang it up somewhere, somehowrevisit it.
I don't necessarily recommendphone reminders unless you
actually do well with them,because I do not do well with
phone stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I do somehow.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
You do yeah, yeah, I do yeah you can't really
generalize the ADHD crowd onthat, but I know from you, know
a lot of my clients like phonereminders.
If there's too many reminderssometimes it's the amount of
reminders they become backgroundnoise and you just like
instinctually, literally justignore them, like as though they
(32:06):
don't exist.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, once you have you know more than I'd say, two
or more.
For me that's when it turnsinto background noise.
So you got to know your systemand what's going to work for you
for sure.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, like everyone knows, who listened to the first
episode of this podcast or thesecond, I don't remember at this
point was you hang it up.
You hang up your one page planon your fridge.
Um, but you know it, you, youknow yourself best, because even
for me, like, if I do it on thefridge, I still could
definitely turn that into aperipheral object that I never
(32:39):
really actually look at again.
So you have to.
And then another principle thatgoes along with this is
constantly change it, like notchange the intention and the
goal, but change the methods tokeep it fresh.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Novelty, novelty.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
So if it's like like I do that on my budget, on my on
monarch all the time, like Ievery quarter, I feel like I'm
restructuring the way that I'mgoing to start tracking yeah
because it gets stale.
And then I'm like, yeah, likewhat's a new way to like get
more interesting insights.
Like what's a new?
Like just keep everything novelon repeat yeah, yeah, I guess
(33:22):
we have thoughts.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, always thoughts .
We have many thoughts, a lot ofthoughts.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
So in doing and achieving goals, there's a
saying right.
What's the saying about?
It's not the destination, butthe journey.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I think that's it.
Is that what it is?
Yeah, I think that's it.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
It's kind of like when you finally get the day you
get the gift you've beenwaiting for forever is the day
that everything starts to feelboring again, like you're the
least excited after you'veopened the present.
You're the most excited waitingfor the present anticipation
that anticipation is where andthis is totally scientific,
(34:06):
because I listened to way toomuch Andrew Huberman, well, not
too much, you can't listen totoo much Andrew Huberman, but it
is the dopamine is active inthe chase.
The dopamine comes from thechase, the, the chase.
(34:27):
So, with that said, when you'redoing visualization, you also
want to visualize yourself doingdoing what it like a visual,
visualize yourself doing thethings you got to do to reach
your little goals okay andthat's important for so many
reasons.
Um uh, another like it's.
It's important for so that youactually can see yourself like
(34:48):
doing it.
You have to be able to seeyourself doing something before
you can really do it.
And also because when you'reconfronted with the point of
decision, which is where we allstruggle, which is, we can plan
up any, we can dream up anything, but when it comes to the
moment that you have to execute,that's when it's we fall short.
If you've pre-visualized howyou're going to react to a
(35:10):
situation, you're far morelikely to subconsciously make
the better choice.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
And when you're in that moment, it's not going to
feel like Like you have tosummon all of this crazy
willpower, right?
Or like you're I don't want tosay hating yourself into making
the decision, but you're likebrute forcing your way into it.
Right, because you visualizethat you already have the
program.
You've already been there,you've already made the decision
(35:39):
.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, yeah, program, you've already, you've already
been there, you've already madethe decision.
Yeah, yeah, you don't have tolike, bring your notebook and
have like, you're like okay,when I'm confronted with this
decision, I will do, I willpause and I will think and
reflect like I mean, that's,that's not really practical at
all.
And you don't have to do that,because the part of the problem
is that this is what's alwayskind of been hard for me to wrap
(36:01):
my head around when we hear theADHD tips and the hacks and all
that about the pausing andabout the like, like.
For me it's been really hard toenact any of those things,
because it's in that point ofdecision where everything is
gone crosswired and I'm leastcapable to remember or do any of
those things, to remember or doany of those things.
(36:22):
So it's like you have topre-plan In a controlled
environment, how you're going toreact In those situations, in a
way, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Totally, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
So is there anything else?
I feel like.
I feel like we've said a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
So we covered what winner arcs are.
Three questions to ask yourselfwhen setting a winner arc or
just going into a goal ingeneral, oh, I want to say more
things.
Okay, I have more things to say.
More things to say more things.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Okay, I have more things to say, more things to
say.
So we're thinking about.
We always hear like breakdowngoals into small tasks or
whatever.
I think, I've fallen into thetrap of breaking them down into
not small enough tasks, but alsonot practical small things.
(37:22):
Like it's kind of like ifyou're just sitting at a
computer breaking it down, it'slike you kind of aren't seeing
like the real story or the realpicture of how it's going to
play out.
So like what I'm trying to getto is that if the goal is to I'm
going to use an example ofworkout then before you even
make the goal to work out, thisis actually going to feel like a
(37:45):
very not cohesive idea, but Ithink you'll get the principle.
Instead of saying I'm goinglike if I don't work out
tomorrow, I'm a failure, youjust say if I lay out workout
clothes and put them in my bagin the morning, that's the win.
Don't even expect yourself togo work out, because that could
be adding one too many things.
(38:07):
If you can just get yourclothes in the bag for a week,
then you may find yourself thenstarting to go and then, when
you go, be like just work outfor five minutes.
Once you hit five minutes, youget that check.
You've checked it off.
Yeah, and we haven't mentionedlike grace and self-forgiveness.
(38:28):
That's huge in all of this.
The one day you slip up mean, ifyou interpret that as a message
to yourself that I knew it, Iknew I couldn't really do it,
I'm just a failure, then that'ssuper self-defeating and I feel
like a lot of us have been thereand it's not fun.
So we really want to work onjust saying it's okay, or you
(38:54):
can't let that stop, you can'tlet that not, you can't let that
not.
Have you go tomorrow, orsomething like that.
I know where you're going.
Language is hard, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
That's what we wanted to talk about, and we did it in
true ADHD fashion.
I feel like True ADHD fashion.
Don't try and do something forthe whole year and don't make a
huge crazy goal.
Do the winter arc it's athree-month phase that you get
to change and reinvent.
So you get the novelty ofsomething, adjusting it, and
keep the first step as small asyou possibly can, be super
(39:30):
connected to it.
Do visualization figure out thewhy that really means something
to you and then you can startto make some progress stacking
them wins stack wins, littletiny wins, and give yourself
acknowledgement for them.
Build up self-efficacy so thatyou start to subconsciously
(39:52):
internalize that you aresomebody who gets little wins
instead of is someone whoconstantly doesn't finish things
and doesn't close the loop onthings, because that's just
reinforcing the message toyourself that you'll just keep
doing that because that's whoyou are, or whatever.
So we don't want that.
So if, even if the win has tobe, I poured a bowl of cereal
(40:15):
for myself this morning becauseI want to start eating breakfast
, win, acknowledge it, take itoff.
So yeah, that's what we got foryou.
I hope you enjoyed listening toa rusty ramble of a podcast for
the last, however long it's been.
We need to work on our ending,so we're going to get out of
here.
Please go to Spotify and Applepodcasts and give the show you
(40:36):
know some love so we can getthis thing rocking and rolling
again.
And show up in all the searchesand hopefully that kind of
stuff.
And go to ADHD money talk dotcom if you want to see past
episodes or ask us a questionthat we could answer on the show
potentially.
And yeah, so we'll talk to yousoon.
We're out of here, you.
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