January 11, 2024 • 18 mins
In this episode, we dive into the brain's role in financial decision-making, with a special focus on individuals with ADHD. We follow the story of Jordan, who grapples with typical financial decisions, such as whether to make an extra mortgage payment or invest in stocks. Experts like E Sonuga-Barke, G Fairchild, and A Stringaris provide insights into the unique challenges faced by those with ADHD.
We examine how the default mode network, essential for planning and self-reflection, and the amygdala's reward-seeking behavior contribute to impulsive financial decisions that can impact long-term stability.
The episode explores the workings of the ADHD brain, particularly the prefrontal cortex's role in controlling attention and impulses, and the interactions of the frontostriatal and frontoparietal circuits. We also discuss the crucial functions of the anterior cingulate cortex in emotional regulation and the orbitofrontal cortex in error detection, offering a glimpse into the ADHD brain's approach to financial planning.
By the end of this episode, listeners will have a deeper understanding of the complexities of the ADHD mind and the strategies that can assist in navigating the financial challenges associated with it.
Head over to our YouTube channel for the full experience on future episodes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're not able to make a good financial decision
because your ADHD brain is a hotmess.
I've dug into the academicpapers and I've discovered why
our brains can't seem to get itsact together.
We're going to apply some stuffto financial situations.
We're going to learn about theparts of the brain that just
flop all the time it feels like,and it's going to be great.
So let's get into it.
Your brain is a mess and we knowthat.
(00:21):
We feel as every single daywhen the most innocuous wrenches
completely blow up our entireday.
Like when we go into our closetin the morning to get dressed
and we stare at the clothes forso long.
We don't know what to do.
We pick one thing out, we'relike none and I don't know, and
then you just sit there andstare and then you get
frustrated and it's dressed outand we can't even get dressed.
You finally put some clothes on, but you look in the mirror.
You're like, well, this sucks,but you don't have the time to
(00:43):
go back in there.
So you're like, whatever, I'mgoing to wear this, it sucks.
And we can't even do that.
How are we supposed to makecomplex financial decisions with
variable after variable beingthrown in and this and that and
everything like it's too much.
So today we're going to talkabout some of the things I
discovered reading some researchpapers the parts of our brain
that aren't working.
We're going to listen to somenames of the brain, so get ready
(01:04):
for that and we're going toapply it to financial situations
.
And I mean, I hope you're goingto learn from this, you're
going to build some awarenessand be like yo why is my brain
doing this?
Well now I know because myventral sciatical norovary
cortex is just flopping rightnow and that's why I can't quite
make this decision.
And that's what we're going totalk about.
In a research paper from ESonuga, bark Escortese, g
(01:27):
Fairchild, a Stringaris thesepeople, these smart people they
used existing empirical researchto hypothesize causes of our
impaired decision making forADHDers.
They went back and looked atall the research that discovered
stuff.
They kind of amalgamated ittogether and decided to make
their own hypothesis, based onthat research, of why we can't
(01:49):
make decisions.
So, in short, get a load ofthis.
This is going to sound fun.
They hypothesized that thosewith ADHD have alterations in
multiple brain systems whichinteract to disrupt
self-referential meaningthinking about yourself,
pondering, day dreaming,executive and reinforcement
processes.
Reinforcement meaning likesolidifying, like my brain is
(02:11):
thinking this and my brain issaying this is it not very good
at that?
And that act across multiplestages of processing to produce
decision making that isdeficient, inefficient,
insufficiently reflective,inconsistent and impulsive, with
a strong bias towards, ofcourse, immediate rewards.
I want that instantgratification over delayed
(02:33):
rewards.
Phew, so that's rough, butlet's go a little deeper to give
you a sense of the scope of thereal dysfunction that we have
to contend with.
Alongside these examples, I'mgoing to introduce you to a
hypothetical ADHD guy who isnamed Richard, and Richard is
going to be having a bit of astruggle.
I'm sorry, I think I named himJordan.
His name is Jordan.
Jordan is struggling to decidesome financial things and he's
(02:56):
struggling, so we're going tolearn about what parts of his
brain are struggling in thesemoments.
All right, so one of the brainsystems that's hypothesized and
this is actually something youwould have read about if you
read Russell Barclay's book butthe default mode network More
fondly, we're going to call itas the dreaming mode network.
This is a network of brainregions that are more active
(03:17):
when we are just at rest,daydreaming and reflective.
Now, we're usually pretty goodat just being in this mode.
I mean we kind of just likeback into that mode.
But it's been showed that inADHD there's a disrupted
connectivity in these areasreally hurts our ability to
project ourselves into thefuture and consider long-term
consequences.
(03:37):
We can put ourselves in thefuture, but when I do that, the
future that I'm in is like thiscomplete fantasy, idealistic
world that really I did notfollow the step-by-step process
of what's going to take to getthere and what it's going to
actually be like.
The future never is quite whatI seem it seems like.
(03:58):
So that's kind of how I relateto that.
But in this example we gotJordan, the ADHD guy.
He gets a raise and must decidewhether to use the extra money
for mortgage payments or forinvesting.
He heard that you should make adecision between this and so
while trying to focus on thepros and cons, jordan's mind
just keeps wandering.
He's trying to make aspreadsheet put the pros, put
the cons, make a great decision.
(04:19):
But he keeps getting distractedwith unrelated thoughts and he
just keeps switching back intosome reflective anxiety mode.
That is not helping and that ishim going from his task-focused
mode to the default mode,network mode, which is the
daydreaming mode, whereas a lotof people would be able to just
be like, okay, I'm intask-centered mode until further
(04:39):
notice.
We're just kind of like backand forth, back and forth, and
it's Exhausting.
Jordan's mind wandering ismaking this decision extremely
hard.
Next, we've got the ventralfront-toe striatal circuits,
which is involved inreinforcement, learning and the
processing of rewards.
So with our ADHD, there'sweakness in these circuits and
it can impair our ability toestimate the value or utility of
(05:03):
different choices.
So you have five differentchoices.
You need to value them.
Which one's better?
Which one's relatively not asgood?
Which one's the worst?
There's these differentvariables for each one.
Then you have this one that hasthis one thing and this one
doesn't have that one thing.
How are we going to square allthis and say, okay, this is
definitively the choice for meand it just hurts us?
(05:25):
So the ventral front-toestriatal circuit here, and this
weakness ultimately contributesto a preference for immediate
rewards, as the brain strugglesto send the reinforcing signal
that solidifies the value of theoptimal long-term reward.
So you might read or thinkyourself this is really what I
should do, I think, but yourbrain is unable in the way that
(05:45):
I kind of relate to this and,again, I'm no neuroscientist so
I'm just kind of reacting tokind of what I'm reading.
Is that like a lot of timesI'll think and be like this is
what I should do, but there isno emotional connection to it.
The emotional connection doesnot happen.
It's like as if my brain is nottruly believing the words
coming out of my mouth and it'ssaying, no, you're gonna stick
(06:07):
with the thing that makes me getdopamine.
No, so that's kind of how Ithink of that, and if anyone out
there is a scientist, aneuroscientist, please correct
me if that's not exactly how itworks, but that's how I was
understanding it as I wasreading it.
Jordan tries to think about thefuture rewards of paying off the
mortgage or investing the money.
However, he finds himself moreattracted to the idea of using
(06:30):
the money for immediatepleasures, like a vacation.
So Jordan is focusing so hard,he's trying so hard to get
himself in line for the rightthing, but the vacation just
keeps popping in his head,popping in his head, and he goes
with it.
He goes with the vacation andhe's not fully accounting for
and understanding theconsequences.
The reward of the vacation isan emotional feeling that is way
(06:53):
overwhelming.
That thing far out likesecurity, stability, treating
your future self with kindnessand care, leaving a legacy, all
the stuff.
No vacation, that's what I getfrom that.
So next we've got the amygdala,the good old amygdala.
Basically it's like theemotional center of your brain.
It's especially tuned into yourfeelings like fear and pleasure
(07:13):
.
And in ADHD the amygdala can beoveractive.
It's shown to be overactive inresearch, making you more
sensitive to delays, meaningmore sensitive to waiting, and
much more likely to want rewardsright away.
And this can lead to quickreactions and sometimes helpful,
sometimes not helpful.
Most of the time, in myexperience, my own impulsive,
(07:36):
fear driven reactions lead todecisions that are not optimal
by a long stretch.
So, mr Jordan, here the thoughtof him waiting years to see the
benefits of investing or payingoff mortgage payments.
Now he's trying to make adecision between investing and
mortgage payment, you know, topay off mortgage faster or to
invest and get long term returns.
He is doing neither of thembecause he keeps thinking about
(07:59):
the idea of waiting that longand it's just not working out
for him.
So this makes him anxious anduneasy.
The thought of like,intellectually, again he gets it
go into the market, you know,pay off that mortgage faster.
This all kind of makes sense,but it makes him uneasy,
especially when he thinks aboutactually starting to do it.
Meaning he's now kind of ascreed with himself and he's
(08:20):
going to do it, but now he's gotto kind of get into the
investment platform, make theinvestment, and then he gets in
there and it starts going up anddown.
Maybe he's going to pull it outright away and say you know
what?
I think I'm going to get a lotmore value out of this new
gadget right now, like thegadget that I can have tomorrow
that's going to help me.
You know, maybe it's some newfancy brain thing that's going
to help solve his ADHD orsomething, you know.
Just not aligned at all and thefear center, the emotional
(08:45):
center in his brain, isoverreacting and causing all
this, this stuff.
All right, so there we go.
So next is the front toestriatal and front toe periadal
or yeah, I'm going to sayperiadal.
I probably should have lookedup how to pronounce that.
But whatever, these are theareas critical for executive
control, beyond, obviously, theprefrontal cortex, which we know
is also really important forthat.
(09:06):
But the front toe striatal andfront toe periadal circuits are
important for managing attention, controlling impulses and
planning, and disruptions herecan slow down decision making
processes and reduce theirefficiency.
Adhd might involve does involvelapses in attention and
difficulties in staying focused.
Yep, okay, compounded byinterference from the dream mode
(09:26):
network, like we talked aboutearlier, and this interference
can lead us to have weak controlover our brain, switching from
task focus mode to defaultdaydream mode.
Okay, so I just read that offthe notes that I had, but
basically executive control, sowe don't need to talk about that
one too much more.
Essentially, I've just gave youtwo more parts of the brain that
are shown in research to beweak.
We've got the amygdala alreadyand we've already got the ventro
(09:48):
striatal circuits and thedefault mode network, which is,
you know we've got.
So we're already dealing with alot here, but there's more.
But wait, there's more, just ofcourse.
We've got the medial prefrontalcortex and the dorsolateral
prefrontal cortex, and theseparts of the prefrontal cortex
are involved in higher order,like smart and strong executive
(10:10):
functions, like planning,decision making and moderating
social behavior, anddisconnectivity between these
areas and the, again, thedefault mode network, one of the
big sort of overarching thingsthat I was reading in this
report, which I'm going to linkin the description and show
notes, is that a lot of this hasto do with the connection
between the default mode networkand these parts of the brain.
(10:31):
Basically, disconnectivity hereleads to challenges and
consistently generating andimplementing plans.
I mean, let's just get pastgenerating the plan.
You know like implementing islike a is like what implementing
a plan like generating the planalone is hard unless you're
deeply hyper focused andstimulated by the plan.
You're making that part so hard.
(10:52):
Okay, so Jordan makes apreliminary plan to invest the
extra money, but then he secondguesses this decision repeatedly
, over and over again, goingback and forth between paying
the mortgage and investing.
He just can't make a decision.
His prefrontal cortex is justplaying games with him.
It cannot just feel solidifiedon a plan.
It just, every single time hefeels like he's going to do one
(11:14):
thing, something kind of justthrows that little tiny wrench.
It doesn't have to be a bigwrench at all, it's just a
little tiny, loose screw and itswings you all the way back to
something else, thinking that'sbetter, it's all or nothing.
It's all kind of crazy.
So this inconsistency in hisdecision making in this
situation is causing him to becompletely unable to commit to a
decision and he's feelingunsure, he has anxiety, he does
(11:36):
not know what to do, and whenyou don't know what to do, it's
much easier at that point tobury your head in the sand and
just do nothing and just try andforget about it.
All right, so that's all thesebrain parts, but wait, there's
more.
Now we've got the anteriorcingulate cortex and the orbital
frontal cortex.
The anterior cingulate cortexis involved in functions like
error detection, like hey,you're making a mistake right
(11:58):
now, you should probably stop,you should probably not do that,
you should probably not buy thething and emotional regulation,
motivation.
And the orbital frontal cortexplays a role in decision making
and reward processing, likehelping you decide what you
should probably do in thissituation to make the best
decision.
Okay, so when these two areasaren't talking to each other
(12:19):
very well, it can degrade ourability to learn from experience
by impairing the process ofprediction errors, which is the
difference between expected andactual outcomes.
Let's create a little scenariohere we're going to call, just
for fun, the anterior cingulatecortex and we're going to call
the orbital frontal cortexOrville.
(12:40):
Let's say that Jordan gets hismonthly paycheck and this time
you know he got a raise and hewants to use the raise for
continuous investing orcontinuous mortgage payoff, like
we've been talking about.
However, jordan also reallyloves shopping and Jordan also
really loves gadgets, electronicgadgets Like, for instance, the
one that if I was Jordan, Iwould be going out and getting
that sensei device, thatneurofeedback device.
(13:03):
That's like $1,500.
I really want that thing, Ijust do.
Okay, jordan's thinking aboutbuying that, and the anterior
cingulate cortex would helpJordan notice when the purchase
decision might be a mistake,that it's not in line, that
something's wrong with it, it'snot really supporting his goals
and all of that.
And Orville would weigh in,which is the orbital frontal
(13:23):
cortex, would weigh in onwhether or not this purchase is
really worth it, considering thereward and Jordan's long-term
savings goal.
So Orville would be like, well,you got this goal and you've
got this much money.
You should probably do this andget to that goal.
And so, yeah, and if they'renot talking well together and in
Orville here, then things willgo wrong.
(13:44):
So when Jordan sees that flashyadvertisement for the expensive
new sensei device and theanterior cingulate cortex well,
I can't remember the rest of it,whatever, you know she's
failing to flag this as apotential error because she's
not effectively communicatingwith Orville and he's supposed
to be helping Jordan obviouslyunderstand that saving money
(14:05):
feels rewarding in the long run,but he's just not helping him
understand that and is also notgetting the right information
from and so and is not tellingOrville hey, orville, like he's
making a mistake right now, tellJordan to focus on his
long-term goal.
You do your thing, I'm doing mypart.
I'm detecting the error, themistake, that don't buy it.
You go tell him what to do, butif and is not saying that, then
(14:28):
he's going to buy it.
And if and is giving him amoment to pause, but Orville is
like, well, I think the rewardof this is pretty darn good,
then she's just going to buy it.
So, as a result, jordan gets thesensei normally and would help
Jordan learn from this mistakeby creating some sense of regret
or reminding Jordan about thesavings goals.
So and can help Jordan reflectupon and help him have some
(14:52):
emotions that are going to belike, yeah, you shouldn't have
done that, but even then, evenif he gets that regret in the
future and is going to not havehim hold on to that regret long
enough or have it affect himstrong enough so that he is
going to not do it again in thefuture.
So he's not learning from hismistakes very well and since Ann
and Orville are just not insync, jordan is just not going
(15:13):
to process this as a learningexperience.
Instead, jordan's going to feelhappy with the new sensei
device or whatever it is, butlater struggle with financial
stress due to the diminishedsort of savings and investing
and extra equity he would havein his home.
He's going to deal with thatstress, but the cycle will just
repeat because they're still notgoing to be able to talk to
(15:34):
each other.
So in this example, jordan justfalls on his face and I know a
lot of us feel like that a lotof the time.
So it's quite stressful.
So at the end of the day, Idon't have answers how to deal
with, like how to fix your brainitself.
There's things you can talk toyour therapist and you know
psychiatrist about, you knowmedication wise and things you
can do to try and rewire and allof that.
(15:55):
But what I can do, what I canhelp you with, is I'm giving you
this education which, again, Iam not a neuroscientist.
So take this as halfentertainment, half light
education fact.
Check me please.
I don't really know what I saidis true, but I was reading off
of a research paper, so I havegot that going for me.
But, like now that you kind ofknow this stuff, it's not
harmful to know what I've justsaid, because maybe you'll be
(16:16):
like in the moment you're gonnabe like, wow, I can't make this
decision between my clothesright now because my
frontostriatal circuit isimpairing my ability to evaluate
the decision or to evaluate thevalue of these two different
options.
Not nice frontostriatal circuit, and so you being able to
understand that there's realcrap going on in your head, I
(16:38):
mean, like this research iscrazy, like there is so much
research suggesting all of theseweak areas in our brain, and
that should, in and of itself,at least give you the comfort of
knowing that, like, you're notalone.
This is a struggle, this isdifficult.
Financial decisions are hard.
The financial part of your lifeis something that you shouldn't
struggle with on your own.
I highly recommend a coach, aplanner, the tools,
(17:00):
accountability, partners.
All of this stuff is reallygonna be important because
you're gonna struggle with it,if it's not something that
you're just naturally gifted atand have a passion for.
It's gonna be a struggle,people with ADHD.
As Ned Hallowell says in thisbook, which is I just got this
and I like it.
He says ADHDers would ratherwatch paint dry than look at
their finances.
So, with that said, it's gonnabe a struggle.
(17:23):
You have to accept that andunderstand that you do still
need to make the right decisions, at least enough of them, to
outweigh, over the long term,the bad decisions, because you
don't wanna end up in 20 yearsin a situation where you are so
far behind that the rest of yourlife is gonna look even more
stressful because you're gettingolder, you're getting tired,
(17:43):
you don't wanna work anymore.
You just need to do the rightthings now.
So you gotta get the help youneed.
You gotta get the support youneed and you'll be okay.
But I hope this helps youunderstand at least and make you
have some comfort in knowingthat we have a lot to deal with.
So we gotta fight it, we gottatackle it.
But just know that it's notlike you're just a terrible bad
person.
You just have ADHD in a brainthat is trying to sabotage you
(18:06):
at every turn.
So I hope this was helpful.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to giving youmore content and talk soon.
You're not able to make a good financial decision
because your ADHD brain is a hotmess.
I've dug into the academicpapers and I've discovered why
our brains can't seem to get itsact together.
We're going to apply some stuffto financial situations.
We're going to learn about theparts of the brain that just
flop all the time it feels like,and it's going to be great.
So let's get into it.
Your brain is a mess and we knowthat.
(00:21):
We feel as every single daywhen the most innocuous wrenches
completely blow up our entireday.
Like when we go into our closetin the morning to get dressed
and we stare at the clothes forso long.
We don't know what to do.
We pick one thing out, we'relike none and I don't know, and
then you just sit there andstare and then you get
frustrated and it's dressed outand we can't even get dressed.
You finally put some clothes on, but you look in the mirror.
You're like, well, this sucks,but you don't have the time to
(00:43):
go back in there.
So you're like, whatever, I'mgoing to wear this, it sucks.
And we can't even do that.
How are we supposed to makecomplex financial decisions with
variable after variable beingthrown in and this and that and
everything like it's too much.
So today we're going to talkabout some of the things I
discovered reading some researchpapers the parts of our brain
that aren't working.
We're going to listen to somenames of the brain, so get ready
(01:04):
for that and we're going toapply it to financial situations
.
And I mean, I hope you're goingto learn from this, you're
going to build some awarenessand be like yo why is my brain
doing this?
Well now I know because myventral sciatical norovary
cortex is just flopping rightnow and that's why I can't quite
make this decision.
And that's what we're going totalk about.
In a research paper from ESonuga, bark Escortese, g
(01:27):
Fairchild, a Stringaris thesepeople, these smart people they
used existing empirical researchto hypothesize causes of our
impaired decision making forADHDers.
They went back and looked atall the research that discovered
stuff.
They kind of amalgamated ittogether and decided to make
their own hypothesis, based onthat research, of why we can't
(01:49):
make decisions.
So, in short, get a load ofthis.
This is going to sound fun.
They hypothesized that thosewith ADHD have alterations in
multiple brain systems whichinteract to disrupt
self-referential meaningthinking about yourself,
pondering, day dreaming,executive and reinforcement
processes.
Reinforcement meaning likesolidifying, like my brain is
(02:11):
thinking this and my brain issaying this is it not very good
at that?
And that act across multiplestages of processing to produce
decision making that isdeficient, inefficient,
insufficiently reflective,inconsistent and impulsive, with
a strong bias towards, ofcourse, immediate rewards.
I want that instantgratification over delayed
(02:33):
rewards.
Phew, so that's rough, butlet's go a little deeper to give
you a sense of the scope of thereal dysfunction that we have
to contend with.
Alongside these examples, I'mgoing to introduce you to a
hypothetical ADHD guy who isnamed Richard, and Richard is
going to be having a bit of astruggle.
I'm sorry, I think I named himJordan.
His name is Jordan.
Jordan is struggling to decidesome financial things and he's
(02:56):
struggling, so we're going tolearn about what parts of his
brain are struggling in thesemoments.
All right, so one of the brainsystems that's hypothesized and
this is actually something youwould have read about if you
read Russell Barclay's book butthe default mode network More
fondly, we're going to call itas the dreaming mode network.
This is a network of brainregions that are more active
(03:17):
when we are just at rest,daydreaming and reflective.
Now, we're usually pretty goodat just being in this mode.
I mean we kind of just likeback into that mode.
But it's been showed that inADHD there's a disrupted
connectivity in these areasreally hurts our ability to
project ourselves into thefuture and consider long-term
consequences.
(03:37):
We can put ourselves in thefuture, but when I do that, the
future that I'm in is like thiscomplete fantasy, idealistic
world that really I did notfollow the step-by-step process
of what's going to take to getthere and what it's going to
actually be like.
The future never is quite whatI seem it seems like.
(03:58):
So that's kind of how I relateto that.
But in this example we gotJordan, the ADHD guy.
He gets a raise and must decidewhether to use the extra money
for mortgage payments or forinvesting.
He heard that you should make adecision between this and so
while trying to focus on thepros and cons, jordan's mind
just keeps wandering.
He's trying to make aspreadsheet put the pros, put
the cons, make a great decision.
(04:19):
But he keeps getting distractedwith unrelated thoughts and he
just keeps switching back intosome reflective anxiety mode.
That is not helping and that ishim going from his task-focused
mode to the default mode,network mode, which is the
daydreaming mode, whereas a lotof people would be able to just
be like, okay, I'm intask-centered mode until further
(04:39):
notice.
We're just kind of like backand forth, back and forth, and
it's Exhausting.
Jordan's mind wandering ismaking this decision extremely
hard.
Next, we've got the ventralfront-toe striatal circuits,
which is involved inreinforcement, learning and the
processing of rewards.
So with our ADHD, there'sweakness in these circuits and
it can impair our ability toestimate the value or utility of
(05:03):
different choices.
So you have five differentchoices.
You need to value them.
Which one's better?
Which one's relatively not asgood?
Which one's the worst?
There's these differentvariables for each one.
Then you have this one that hasthis one thing and this one
doesn't have that one thing.
How are we going to square allthis and say, okay, this is
definitively the choice for meand it just hurts us?
(05:25):
So the ventral front-toestriatal circuit here, and this
weakness ultimately contributesto a preference for immediate
rewards, as the brain strugglesto send the reinforcing signal
that solidifies the value of theoptimal long-term reward.
So you might read or thinkyourself this is really what I
should do, I think, but yourbrain is unable in the way that
(05:45):
I kind of relate to this and,again, I'm no neuroscientist so
I'm just kind of reacting tokind of what I'm reading.
Is that like a lot of timesI'll think and be like this is
what I should do, but there isno emotional connection to it.
The emotional connection doesnot happen.
It's like as if my brain is nottruly believing the words
coming out of my mouth and it'ssaying, no, you're gonna stick
(06:07):
with the thing that makes me getdopamine.
No, so that's kind of how Ithink of that, and if anyone out
there is a scientist, aneuroscientist, please correct
me if that's not exactly how itworks, but that's how I was
understanding it as I wasreading it.
Jordan tries to think about thefuture rewards of paying off the
mortgage or investing the money.
However, he finds himself moreattracted to the idea of using
(06:30):
the money for immediatepleasures, like a vacation.
So Jordan is focusing so hard,he's trying so hard to get
himself in line for the rightthing, but the vacation just
keeps popping in his head,popping in his head, and he goes
with it.
He goes with the vacation andhe's not fully accounting for
and understanding theconsequences.
The reward of the vacation isan emotional feeling that is way
(06:53):
overwhelming.
That thing far out likesecurity, stability, treating
your future self with kindnessand care, leaving a legacy, all
the stuff.
No vacation, that's what I getfrom that.
So next we've got the amygdala,the good old amygdala.
Basically it's like theemotional center of your brain.
It's especially tuned into yourfeelings like fear and pleasure
(07:13):
.
And in ADHD the amygdala can beoveractive.
It's shown to be overactive inresearch, making you more
sensitive to delays, meaningmore sensitive to waiting, and
much more likely to want rewardsright away.
And this can lead to quickreactions and sometimes helpful,
sometimes not helpful.
Most of the time, in myexperience, my own impulsive,
(07:36):
fear driven reactions lead todecisions that are not optimal
by a long stretch.
So, mr Jordan, here the thoughtof him waiting years to see the
benefits of investing or payingoff mortgage payments.
Now he's trying to make adecision between investing and
mortgage payment, you know, topay off mortgage faster or to
invest and get long term returns.
He is doing neither of thembecause he keeps thinking about
(07:59):
the idea of waiting that longand it's just not working out
for him.
So this makes him anxious anduneasy.
The thought of like,intellectually, again he gets it
go into the market, you know,pay off that mortgage faster.
This all kind of makes sense,but it makes him uneasy,
especially when he thinks aboutactually starting to do it.
Meaning he's now kind of ascreed with himself and he's
(08:20):
going to do it, but now he's gotto kind of get into the
investment platform, make theinvestment, and then he gets in
there and it starts going up anddown.
Maybe he's going to pull it outright away and say you know
what?
I think I'm going to get a lotmore value out of this new
gadget right now, like thegadget that I can have tomorrow
that's going to help me.
You know, maybe it's some newfancy brain thing that's going
to help solve his ADHD orsomething, you know.
Just not aligned at all and thefear center, the emotional
(08:45):
center in his brain, isoverreacting and causing all
this, this stuff.
All right, so there we go.
So next is the front toestriatal and front toe periadal
or yeah, I'm going to sayperiadal.
I probably should have lookedup how to pronounce that.
But whatever, these are theareas critical for executive
control, beyond, obviously, theprefrontal cortex, which we know
is also really important forthat.
(09:06):
But the front toe striatal andfront toe periadal circuits are
important for managing attention, controlling impulses and
planning, and disruptions herecan slow down decision making
processes and reduce theirefficiency.
Adhd might involve does involvelapses in attention and
difficulties in staying focused.
Yep, okay, compounded byinterference from the dream mode
(09:26):
network, like we talked aboutearlier, and this interference
can lead us to have weak controlover our brain, switching from
task focus mode to defaultdaydream mode.
Okay, so I just read that offthe notes that I had, but
basically executive control, sowe don't need to talk about that
one too much more.
Essentially, I've just gave youtwo more parts of the brain that
are shown in research to beweak.
We've got the amygdala alreadyand we've already got the ventro
(09:48):
striatal circuits and thedefault mode network, which is,
you know we've got.
So we're already dealing with alot here, but there's more.
But wait, there's more, just ofcourse.
We've got the medial prefrontalcortex and the dorsolateral
prefrontal cortex, and theseparts of the prefrontal cortex
are involved in higher order,like smart and strong executive
(10:10):
functions, like planning,decision making and moderating
social behavior, anddisconnectivity between these
areas and the, again, thedefault mode network, one of the
big sort of overarching thingsthat I was reading in this
report, which I'm going to linkin the description and show
notes, is that a lot of this hasto do with the connection
between the default mode networkand these parts of the brain.
(10:31):
Basically, disconnectivity hereleads to challenges and
consistently generating andimplementing plans.
I mean, let's just get pastgenerating the plan.
You know like implementing islike a is like what implementing
a plan like generating the planalone is hard unless you're
deeply hyper focused andstimulated by the plan.
You're making that part so hard.
(10:52):
Okay, so Jordan makes apreliminary plan to invest the
extra money, but then he secondguesses this decision repeatedly
, over and over again, goingback and forth between paying
the mortgage and investing.
He just can't make a decision.
His prefrontal cortex is justplaying games with him.
It cannot just feel solidifiedon a plan.
It just, every single time hefeels like he's going to do one
(11:14):
thing, something kind of justthrows that little tiny wrench.
It doesn't have to be a bigwrench at all, it's just a
little tiny, loose screw and itswings you all the way back to
something else, thinking that'sbetter, it's all or nothing.
It's all kind of crazy.
So this inconsistency in hisdecision making in this
situation is causing him to becompletely unable to commit to a
decision and he's feelingunsure, he has anxiety, he does
(11:36):
not know what to do, and whenyou don't know what to do, it's
much easier at that point tobury your head in the sand and
just do nothing and just try andforget about it.
All right, so that's all thesebrain parts, but wait, there's
more.
Now we've got the anteriorcingulate cortex and the orbital
frontal cortex.
The anterior cingulate cortexis involved in functions like
error detection, like hey,you're making a mistake right
(11:58):
now, you should probably stop,you should probably not do that,
you should probably not buy thething and emotional regulation,
motivation.
And the orbital frontal cortexplays a role in decision making
and reward processing, likehelping you decide what you
should probably do in thissituation to make the best
decision.
Okay, so when these two areasaren't talking to each other
(12:19):
very well, it can degrade ourability to learn from experience
by impairing the process ofprediction errors, which is the
difference between expected andactual outcomes.
Let's create a little scenariohere we're going to call, just
for fun, the anterior cingulatecortex and we're going to call
the orbital frontal cortexOrville.
(12:40):
Let's say that Jordan gets hismonthly paycheck and this time
you know he got a raise and hewants to use the raise for
continuous investing orcontinuous mortgage payoff, like
we've been talking about.
However, jordan also reallyloves shopping and Jordan also
really loves gadgets, electronicgadgets Like, for instance, the
one that if I was Jordan, Iwould be going out and getting
that sensei device, thatneurofeedback device.
(13:03):
That's like $1,500.
I really want that thing, Ijust do.
Okay, jordan's thinking aboutbuying that, and the anterior
cingulate cortex would helpJordan notice when the purchase
decision might be a mistake,that it's not in line, that
something's wrong with it, it'snot really supporting his goals
and all of that.
And Orville would weigh in,which is the orbital frontal
(13:23):
cortex, would weigh in onwhether or not this purchase is
really worth it, considering thereward and Jordan's long-term
savings goal.
So Orville would be like, well,you got this goal and you've
got this much money.
You should probably do this andget to that goal.
And so, yeah, and if they'renot talking well together and in
Orville here, then things willgo wrong.
(13:44):
So when Jordan sees that flashyadvertisement for the expensive
new sensei device and theanterior cingulate cortex well,
I can't remember the rest of it,whatever, you know she's
failing to flag this as apotential error because she's
not effectively communicatingwith Orville and he's supposed
to be helping Jordan obviouslyunderstand that saving money
(14:05):
feels rewarding in the long run,but he's just not helping him
understand that and is also notgetting the right information
from and so and is not tellingOrville hey, orville, like he's
making a mistake right now, tellJordan to focus on his
long-term goal.
You do your thing, I'm doing mypart.
I'm detecting the error, themistake, that don't buy it.
You go tell him what to do, butif and is not saying that, then
(14:28):
he's going to buy it.
And if and is giving him amoment to pause, but Orville is
like, well, I think the rewardof this is pretty darn good,
then she's just going to buy it.
So, as a result, jordan gets thesensei normally and would help
Jordan learn from this mistakeby creating some sense of regret
or reminding Jordan about thesavings goals.
So and can help Jordan reflectupon and help him have some
(14:52):
emotions that are going to belike, yeah, you shouldn't have
done that, but even then, evenif he gets that regret in the
future and is going to not havehim hold on to that regret long
enough or have it affect himstrong enough so that he is
going to not do it again in thefuture.
So he's not learning from hismistakes very well and since Ann
and Orville are just not insync, jordan is just not going
(15:13):
to process this as a learningexperience.
Instead, jordan's going to feelhappy with the new sensei
device or whatever it is, butlater struggle with financial
stress due to the diminishedsort of savings and investing
and extra equity he would havein his home.
He's going to deal with thatstress, but the cycle will just
repeat because they're still notgoing to be able to talk to
(15:34):
each other.
So in this example, jordan justfalls on his face and I know a
lot of us feel like that a lotof the time.
So it's quite stressful.
So at the end of the day, Idon't have answers how to deal
with, like how to fix your brainitself.
There's things you can talk toyour therapist and you know
psychiatrist about, you knowmedication wise and things you
can do to try and rewire and allof that.
(15:55):
But what I can do, what I canhelp you with, is I'm giving you
this education which, again, Iam not a neuroscientist.
So take this as halfentertainment, half light
education fact.
Check me please.
I don't really know what I saidis true, but I was reading off
of a research paper, so I havegot that going for me.
But, like now that you kind ofknow this stuff, it's not
harmful to know what I've justsaid, because maybe you'll be
(16:16):
like in the moment you're gonnabe like, wow, I can't make this
decision between my clothesright now because my
frontostriatal circuit isimpairing my ability to evaluate
the decision or to evaluate thevalue of these two different
options.
Not nice frontostriatal circuit, and so you being able to
understand that there's realcrap going on in your head, I
(16:38):
mean, like this research iscrazy, like there is so much
research suggesting all of theseweak areas in our brain, and
that should, in and of itself,at least give you the comfort of
knowing that, like, you're notalone.
This is a struggle, this isdifficult.
Financial decisions are hard.
The financial part of your lifeis something that you shouldn't
struggle with on your own.
I highly recommend a coach, aplanner, the tools,
(17:00):
accountability, partners.
All of this stuff is reallygonna be important because
you're gonna struggle with it,if it's not something that
you're just naturally gifted atand have a passion for.
It's gonna be a struggle,people with ADHD.
As Ned Hallowell says in thisbook, which is I just got this
and I like it.
He says ADHDers would ratherwatch paint dry than look at
their finances.
So, with that said, it's gonnabe a struggle.
(17:23):
You have to accept that andunderstand that you do still
need to make the right decisions, at least enough of them, to
outweigh, over the long term,the bad decisions, because you
don't wanna end up in 20 yearsin a situation where you are so
far behind that the rest of yourlife is gonna look even more
stressful because you're gettingolder, you're getting tired,
(17:43):
you don't wanna work anymore.
You just need to do the rightthings now.
So you gotta get the help youneed.
You gotta get the support youneed and you'll be okay.
But I hope this helps youunderstand at least and make you
have some comfort in knowingthat we have a lot to deal with.
So we gotta fight it, we gottatackle it.
But just know that it's notlike you're just a terrible bad
person.
You just have ADHD in a brainthat is trying to sabotage you
(18:06):
at every turn.
So I hope this was helpful.
Thank you so much.
I look forward to giving youmore content and talk soon.
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