October 1, 2025 • 31 mins
The source offers an analysis of ten animated television series that are noted for consistently improving in quality across their runs, citing BoJack Horseman, Avatar: The Last Airbender, and Rick and Morty as key examples. It explains that unlike shows that peak early, these series build momentum through enhanced storytelling, deeper character development, and bolder creative risks, often exploring mature themes like trauma, identity, and morality. The episode discusses specific improvements in animation quality and the shift from episodic to serialized narrative structures in shows like Gravity Falls and Adventure Time. Ultimately, the overview concludes that the evolution of these animated series highlights the medium's unique capacity for profound creative and emotional growth, ensuring their longevity and cultural impact.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the deep dive.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Good to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
So today we're going to tackle something that I find
pretty fascinating.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Oh yeah, what's that.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's this question, right, why do some animated shows just stick?
You know, they become these massive cultural phenomena. People talk
about them for decades, analyze them.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah yeah, total loyalty, intense fandoms. Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
But then you have others maybe they even start out
really strong, seem promising, and then they just kind of
vanish after a season maybe two.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Lade away completely right. It happens all the time. So
what's the secret, sauce.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, that's what we dug into, and looking at the
source material, the answer seems pretty consistent. It's not just
about like maintaining quality, no.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Not at all. It's about growth, h real proactive improvement.
The shows that last, the ones that become classics, they're
the ones that are always evolving, pushing their own limits.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
They actively get better season after season. They don't just
tread water. They actually ascend, you could.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Say, exactly, they build on the foundation.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So we dove into a whole stack of sources focusing
on specifically a ten animated series, and it's a really
diverse bunch.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Actually, yeah, everything from like foundational comedies to these big modern.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Epics, and the common thread is that consistent upward curve.
They start good, maybe even great, sure, but they just
become so much richer or funnier, or more i don't know,
emotionally deep as they go on.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And that's our mission for this deep dive, right, We're
trying to give you a shortcut.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Basically, Yeah, unpack the mechanics behind that creative evolution.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
How does that happen? How does refining the writing, the characters,
the visuals. How does that turn a pretty good show
into something truly lasting, something classic?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
And we've kind of boiled it down based on the
sources to maybe five key factors that really let animation
do this kind of continuous improvement thing.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
We'll be planning those out as we go.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, sounds good, let's dive in then part one. We're
looking at shows that started out, you know, pretty much
pure com many lots of absurdity, right joke machines exactly,
but then somehow transformed into these really sophisticated stories tackling
some surprisingly mature themes.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It's a tricky pivot, that one. Yeah, moving from easy
laughs to something with real thematic weight that's.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
High risk, definitely, And the sources, they pretty much immediately
point to one show as the defining example from the
last decade or so.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It has to be BoJack Horseman.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Season one, I mean it was hilarious, right, darkly funny,
exploring this washed up horse actor.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Loads of animal puns, Hollywood satires.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Oh yeah, the puns were relentless, but it was mostly that,
you know, absurdist tumor. If you told me back then
that the show would end up being one of the
most profound TV meditations on mental illness, addiction, trauma, you.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Wouldn't have believed it.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Not a chance.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And that transformation is the genius of the show. It
really highlights one of our key factors, factor five, thematic depth.
How so well the sources track this shift really clearly.
This show stopped just using BoJack's self destruction as like
a setup for jokes and started treating it seriously as
a consequence of his past, his trauma, his mental health struggles.
(03:13):
That's a fundamental.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Shift, and that deeper dive really kicked in around season two,
didn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, that's when they started layering in the backstories, why
is BoJack like this? Exploring his childhood, his past failures,
the cycle of addiction, all with this brutal honesty.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
But it wasn't just the themes. The sources all flagged
how incredibly experimental the show became. They took huge creative risks.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Or absolutely that brings in Factor three creative risks, And
the prime example everyone points to is Fish out of
Water in season three.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Ah, the underwater episode incredible.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Think about it, an entire episode basically dialogue free set
underwater at a film festival. Yeah, it forced them to
tell the story purely through visuals, through animation, through physical comedy.
But at the same time it was devastating, utterly. It
was maybe the most powerful portrait of BoJack's profound loneliness,
his inability to actually connect with anyone, all shown, not told.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Doing something like that structurally in the middle of what's
ostensibly a comedy, that's a massive gamble.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Huge, and it proved the creators really understood animation's unique power.
They could explore these heavy, existential themes using a visual
language that honestly, live action just couldn't replicate in the
same way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And they kept that up right that willingness to get messy,
even complex.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Right through to the end. The final season didn't offer
easy answers or neat bows.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No quick fixes for BoJack. No.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
It had to deal with closure, sure, but it balanced
that with this really difficult, realistic ambiguity about recovery, about consequences,
about whether change is even possible.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
It reached a level of complexity you just don't see
in most sitcoms, animated or live action.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Truly exceptional.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Okay, sticking with that idea of balancing total irreverence with
something deep. Next up is Rick and Morty.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Ah. Yes, another heavy hitter.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Definitely started out leaning hard into crude humor, wild sci
fi absurdity. Season one was inventive for sure, but maybe
a bit scattershot. Yeah, scattershot is a good word. Lots
of shock value. Felt like they were throwing everything at
the wall sometimes.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And the growth here the improvement. It's a fantastic example
of how refining the writing, touching on factor three, creative
risks and just overall quality, shifts the entire feel of
a show.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
How did it shift exactly? It didn't mature in the
same way BoJack did me.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
No, not quite the same kind of emotional depth focus,
at least not Initially, it was more about finding this
critical balance that they kept the irreverent, often cynical comedy,
but they started making it serve the bigger, often quite bleak,
existential storytelling. The writing went from just being cleverly and
shocking to being genuinely ambitious.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
You can really see that ambition in the episodes that
just blow the world wide up open without losing laughs.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Exactly, and the sources consistently bring up the Rick Lantis
mix up from season.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Three, Oh brilliant episode.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
On the surface, it's just a side trip to the
citadel of Rix and Morties while our main deo are
off doing something else right, but it becomes this incredibly layered,
dark exploration of society, hierarchy, inequality, power, fascism, all playing
out among infinite versions of the same two guys.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It's staggering world building, but it's disguised as a series
of vignettes and jokes.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Precisely they used what felt like a one off adventure
to retroactively deepen the entire lore and hammer home this
central idea about Rix nihilism, how even infinite potential curdles
into dysfunction.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And then they started weaving in more serialized stuff too,
didn't they about Rick's pass, the family dynamics.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yes, those threads got stronger and more complex each season.
Rick's mysterious history, Beth's identity crisis, the whole family's messed
up relationships. It rewarded viewers who paid attention to the
bigger picture, unfolding bit, the crazy adventures.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
It became much more than just joke a minute.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Sci fi definitely. Okay, So the third one in this
sort of comedy to depth section is maybe a bit
of an outlier Archer.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, because Archer's approach was different. Again, it relied on
constant reinvention, didn't it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Exactly reinvention as refinement? Season one was fantastic, sharp, super irreverent,
spy parody, loads of crude workplace humor, that amazing banter.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, the dialogue was instantly iconic.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
But that formula, as great as it was, could easily
have gotten stale over what fourteen seasons easily, So they
actively fought stagnation. This is pure factor three creative risks.
They just kept tearing down the premise and starting fresh.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Archer vice in season five, where they suddenly become cocaine
smugglers right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Or the seasons where they were private detectives or in space,
or the coma dream seasons, completely different settings and genres.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
It's kind of amazing They kept the show's voice and
character dynamics so consistent through all those radical shifts.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It really is, and you can see practical improvements too.
Touching on factor for animation quality, the animation itself got
noticeably slicker.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, more dynamics, especially the action sequences.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
They went from mostly static banter scenes early on to
staging some pretty complex fluid action later.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And crucially, the characters didn't just reset with each genre change.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
No, that's key. Their histories mattered, Stirling Archer himself, Lanna Kane,
their whole messed up found family, the relationships of all.
They explored things like loyalty, becoming parents with aj Right.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Fatherhood for Archer was a big one.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, personal growth surprisingly enough, so Archer proved you could
keep improving, keep things fresh within a very joke dense,
often episodic format just by being incredibly bold and constantly
hitting the reset button on the world around the characters.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Okay, one more for this first part. A classic futurama
Ah yes, another cornerstone.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And like some others, it started funny, obviously matt grinding pedigree.
But looking back, those early episodes could be a bit uneven,
maybe more focused on sci fi gags than really deep
character stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I think that's fair. It took a little while to
find its heart, and that's where Futurama's upward trajectory really lies,
finding its emotional core. That's factor one character development in action.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
It started blending the hilarious genre parody and the clever
sci fi concepts with these moments of genuine, unexpected poignancy.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And that blend is what cemented its legacy. I think
there's one episode that just perfectly encapsulates that shift, isn't there.
The one everyone talks.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
About has to be Jurassic Bark season four.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, see Moore the dog m Man.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's not just funny sci fi. It's genuinely heartbreaking. It's
all about Fry's connection to his past. This simple loyalty
of a dog waiting for him.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
It just hits you, it really does, and it showed
the writers weren't afraid to go there emotionally exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
That episode and others that followed showed this sudden, massive leap,
and emotional depth. They started exploring fry selflessness, the crew's
weird bond, the unspoken connections.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Leela's origins, benders, brief moments of well, not quite humanity
but something close.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Right. It moved beyond just parodying sci fi tropes. They
started pairing the ambitious concepts with real feeling human, robot, alien, whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And investing in those relationships. It made the jokes land
better too, didn't It gave them more weight.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, it gave everything higher stakes and ensure the show
endured even through multiple cancelations and revivals. People cared about
the Planet Express crew.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
That makes sense, okay, So that focus on character depth
and evolving relationships is actually a perfect bridge to our
next section, Part two.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Right where we look at shows that maybe started charming
and episodic, but then used ongoing character arcs and crucially
expanded mythology to become these huge, sprawling complex sagas.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
This is where factor two world building really comes to
the forefront.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Definitely. This category shows the power of smart serialization, taking
a fund concept and just layering it year after year,
turning standalone adventures into pieces of a much bigger.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Puzzle, rewarding the dedicated viewer exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And creating these incredibly rich, high stakes narratives out of
what might have seemed simple at first.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And I think when you talk about that kind of elevation,
that modern animated saga format, there's one show that just looms.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Large, shadowy Avatar The Last Airbender.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
A gold standard season one looking back, it's great, people
love it, but it is pretty straightforward structurally, Yeah, very.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Much an adventure of the week. Feel Ang needs to
learn water bending, so they go find a master, solve
a local village's problem, move on classic quest structures, tosodic barry.
But the sources really emphasize how quickly and deliberately that
changed the transformation into this grand epic saga was baked in.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
How did they manage that.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
By fully embracing factor two world building, Especially from season
two onwards, they started introducing much richer political intrigue, more
moral ambiguity.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Right, the world wasn't just a backdrop for bending cool
elemental powers anymore.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
No, it became this complex system history, politics, the consequences
of one hundred year war, imperialism, genocide, heavy stuff. They
explored the difficulty and the brutal realities of trying to
save a world that's been consumed by conflict, and.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
That's where the moral complexity really kicked in, wasn't it
even for the good.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Guys, Absolutely and ang struggling with the expectation to kill
the fire Lord, Katara grappling with revenge. The show wasn't
afraid to make the heroes face difficult choices with no
easy answers, and the.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Absolute core of that improvement, the thing everyone points to
is Zuko.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Oh Zuko's redemption arc. It's legendary for a reason. It's
the ultimate demonstration of factor one character development.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
He starts as this, you know, kind of one note antagonist,
angry teenager, obsessed with capturing the Avatar to restore his honor.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Pretty simple motivation, but by the end of the series,
he's one of the most complex, deeply explored characters, maybe
ever in animation.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
That internal struggle, his family's legacy versus his own conscience, his.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Slow, painful journey to figuring out who he actually is,
what he believes in, finding his own self worth away
from his father's approval.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It's incredible, and crucially, it wasn't rushed, not at all.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
It unfolded painstakingly over three full seasons. The writers allowed
him to fail to backslide, to genuinely change and earn
that redemption. It showed immense confidence and long form storytelling.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And you mentioned the themes maturing. The technical side had
to keep.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Up too, right, definitely Factor four. Animation quality stepped up
significantly by season three. The action sequences, the bending battles
that were incredibly well choreographed, fluid, and impactful.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The finale felt huge.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, it managed to balance that epic scale, the high
stakes action with Ang's personal philosophical struggle about violence. The
show literally grew up with its audience, starting accessible but
maturing in complexity, which is why it resonates so strongly
even now.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Such a great example. Okay, next up a show that's
a very different path to revealing its depth.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Adventure Time, Ah, the Land of Ooh talk about is
starting quirky right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Early Adventure Time was just this explosion of color, randomness,
non sequiturs, pure delightful cartoon.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Weirdness, mathematical algebraic, just silly fun.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But underneath all that surface.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Charm lurked this absolutely massive, surprisingly dark mythology.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Exactly the transformation here was all about the slow reveal. Yeah,
gradually unveiling the post apocalyptic origins of Ooh the Great Mushroom.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
War, and these incredibly profound themes started emerging, growing up, identity,
memory loss. Yeah, the weight of history.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It's like Factor two world building, but done in reverse almost.
They built the funhouse first, then slowly showed you the
foundations were built on something much older and sadder.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
That's a great way to put it. And by season
four or five they were really diving into that darker territory.
The big one is the Ice King's backstory.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Simon Patrick cough oh.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Man revealing he was this human antiquarium, driven mad by
a magic crown, his tragic relationship with the young Marcelene,
the vampire queen, before he lost himself.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
It's devastating, dealing with loss, the cost of magic, enduring love,
across memory loss. It's incredibly heavy stuff for a show
that also features, you know, talking candy people, and.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
That's the magic, right. They made you care deeply about
these absurd characters by giving them these rich, often tragic histories.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And the visuals evolved too, didn't they to match that
emotional weight.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, The animation became really experimental at times, another nod
to Factor three creative risks. The sources often mention episodes
like I Remember You.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Where Simon and Marceleine sing together.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and the animation is so minimalist, just raw emotion
conveyed through simple drawings and that heartbreaking song. It allowed
the show to transcend being just a kid show and
become this genre bending cult classic that adults could analyze
and connect with deeply because of that slow burned lore.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Amazing stuff. Now a show with a somewhat similar trajectory,
but maybe more compressed, more focused on mystery, Gravity falls.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Right, another fan favorite with a dedicated following.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Season one was great fun mystery comedy Dipper and Mabel
solving paranormal puzzles in this weird town. Mostly standalone monster
of the Week type.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Episode terming funny, clever, yeah, but yeah, mostly self contained adventures.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
But then season two hit and it felt like the
show just declared its intentions absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
It pivoted heart into full serialization. Suddenly, all those little
background details, the codes, the symbols from season one, they
all started.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Connecting, weaving this incredibly complex web of conspiracy, secret Society's
family history. The stakes just shot through the.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Roof, and the source's praise how tightly written it was,
how it managed to balance the ongoing mystery, the humor,
the genuine heart between the twins, and moments of actual
kid friendly horror.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It juggled a lot of tones extremely well.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And the turning point episode, the one that blew everyone's
minds and cemented the show's serialized brilliants, was not what
he seems.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Oh yeah, the reveal about grunkle Stan that.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
He had a secret twin brother, Ford, the actual author
of the journals, hidden away for decades.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
It was shocking, and it instantly recontextualized everything Weird Stan
had done throughout the entire first season and made you
realize they'd been playing the long game all along.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Total commitment to factor two world building in factor one
character development, hitting both simultaneously. It deepened the mysteries, deepened
the characters Stan, especially without losing any of the charm
or humor.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No wonder it became such a binge watching phenomenon you
felt rewarded for paying close attention.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Exactly every detail mattered.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Okay, final one in this world building group Hilda a
more recent entry.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah. The Netflix series based on the graphic novels visually
gorgeous from day.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
One, absolutely stunning, and season one was just lovely, heartfelt,
this fearless, blue haired girl exploring an enchanting world filled
with trolls and spirits, but maybe a bit simple story wise.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Simple Yeah, focused on establishing Hilda, her mom, twigged the
deer Fox, the move to Trollberg.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
So how did it improve? It didn't have like a
huge dark secret like Adventure Time or Gravity Falls.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
No, Its transformation was more subtle, but definitely there. It
leaned into expanding the world, building within its existing storybook aesthetic,
diving deeper into the specific rules and mythology of Trollberg,
the Woodman, the Mara, the weather.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Spirits, refining the world rather than revealing a hidden one exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
And refining Hilda's relationships with her mom, with her new
human friends Freda and David, understanding the creatures.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Around her, and Season two seemed to raise the stakes.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
A bit Yeah. Season two brought in more complex challenges,
higher stakes characters like the Enigmatic Librarian, who added more
layers to Trollberg's mysteries. It forced Hilda to grow up
a bit, face more responsibility.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
All while keeping that cozy, charming vibe.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
That was key. It maintained its unique tone and the animation.
Fact four, animation quality just kept getting richer, more detailed,
more immersive with each season right through to the movie finale.
It balanced adventure, emotion and these coming of age themes beautifully.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Okay, great examples of world building there. That takes us
to part three, And here we're looking at two shows
the sources flagged as kind of outliers, but crucial ones.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Right. One is the absolute foundation of the modern genre,
and the other is a very intense, very now superhero entry.
Different paths to improvement.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
You basically can't talk about animation evolution without talking about
The Simpsons. Got to start there, the blueprint really.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
For better or worse. Yeah, and those early seasons, I
mean they were revolutionary at the time, obviously nothing else.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Like it, groundbreaking, but watching them now, they feel kind.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Of raw, definitely raw, clunky animation, the writing still finding
its voice compared to what we think of as peak Simpsons.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And the sources spend a lot of time tracing that improvement,
which happened remarkably fast.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Actually very fast. The show just honed its edge incredibly quickly.
The satire got sharper, the character work deepened, the comedic
timing became razor precise, leading into what everyone calls the
Golden era.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Generally pegged is what seasons three through eight something like that.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, roughly that period, that's when it was just untouchable.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So what drove that improvement? Was it just the writers
getting better?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That was huge? Yes, the talent in that writer's room
was legendary, but it was also the visual evolution Factor four,
animation quality, moving from that rough, almost wobbly.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Early look, Yeah, very dish.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You're the vibrant, expressive, established style. We all recognize. That
allowed for better visual gags, more nuanced character expressions.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
But the core was the writing. Right that balance they stressed.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Absolutely, they perfected, balancing genuine, sometimes really moving family moments
the heart of the show with the most savage, biting
social commentary imaginable. That's factor five. Thematic depth working at
an incredibly high level.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And it wasn't just about the main family.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
No, that's crucial to the Golden era. Springfield itself came
alive all those secondary characters, Moe Apu, Chief Wigham, Skinner,
mister Burns, ned Flanders.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
They weren't just joke dispensers anymore exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
They became fully fleshed out, iconic characters with their own lives, quirks,
and contributions to the town's social fabric. The world felt
incredibly rich and lived in.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Is there one episode from that peak era that kind
of crystallizes that perfect balance of humor, heart and satire.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
The sources often point to Homer's enemy from season.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Eight, Frank Grimes, or Grimy as he liked to be called.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Poor Grimy. He comes into the power plant. He's hardworkingetent,
basically a normal person.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And he just cannot comprehend Homer.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Cannot deal with Homer's incompetence, his laziness is under lack
of awareness. And yet Homer has a house, a family,
He's been to space.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Well, Grimey has struggled for everything.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
It's hilarious, but it's also this devastating piece of social satire.
It's about unfairness, about how society sometimes rewards mediocrity or
sheer dumb luck. It's funny, but it has tea. That's
the golden era Simpsons.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Wow, Yeah, that episode is something else. Okay, shifting heres
completely now from the foundational giant to a very modern,
very intense example. Invincible, the Amazon Prime series debuted twenty
twenty one. Season one was well.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It grabbed you, Oh yeah, established the world, the characters,
Mark Grayson finding his powers, and then bam, yeah, that twist.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
The Onnyman betrayal at the end of the first episode,
brutal unexpected set the tone immediately.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So how did it improve from that already high impact start.
The show's improvement arc has been remarkably steep, hasn't it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, it refined itself very quickly after that huge set
up in season one. The transformation was about leaning immediately
and intensely into the consequences the emotional core, right.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Dealing with Marx trauma from fighting his own father, the
moral complexities of being a hero in a world that
violent and gray. That's diving straight into Factor five, thematic depth.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
And the sources. Definitely note the visual upgrade between seasons.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Big time Fact four. Animation quality got a noticeable boost
in season two. He became more polished, more fluid.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Which helped with those insane fight scenes. Right, they're known
for being incredibly viscerle.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Definitely, but it wasn't just for the gore and action.
The improved animation also allowed for much more expressive, subtle
character moments. You could really read marx exhaustion, his fear,
his pained expressions during dialogue scenes. It supported the emotional delivery.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And the writing kept pushing things too.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Oh yeah, got much bolder, tackling huge themes intergalactic war,
betrayal on a cosmic scale, family legacies, the immense sacrifice
involved in heroism.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
The multiverse stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, weaving in this complex multiversal narrative that honestly feels
as deep and serialized as anything in the big live
action superhero franchises. Invincible is kind of setting a new
bar for how quickly an adult animated series can establish
its world and then just exponentially build depth and intensity
on top of it.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Okay, so that's our ten shows. We've got the Simpson's Futurama, BoJack,
Rick and Morty Archer, An Avatar Adventure, Time, Gravity Falls, Helda,
and Invincible.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Quite a list, the Fantastic Range, all proving this core
idea of upward trajectory.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So now Part four, let's try to synthesize this, pull
it all together. What are the common threads? What are
those specific mechanics that allow these shows and animation in
general to keep improving like this, right, this.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Is the why and the how. We've seen what these
great shows getting better. Now, let's unpack the engine driving it.
And as we've hinted, the sources consistently point to five
key factors that unite these series despite their differences.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Okay, let's stick them off. Factor one you already mentioned
quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Character development, absolutely crucial. It's about the show continuously deepening
its characters, both main and supporting, over multiple seasons. This
creates that long term emotional hook for the audience.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
You really need to care about who you're watching exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Think about BoJack's six season struggle, which wasn't neat or
linear at all, or Zuko's painful earned redemption we talked about.
These characters aren't static props for plots.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
They feel like they change, mess up, learn are not right.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
They're in believable motion. The writers aren't afraid to let
them fail, to let them fundamentally evolve. That makes you
stick around. You're invested in their fate. That's longevity right there.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Okay, makes sense. Factor two world building.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, and this isn't just about having a cool setting. Initially,
it's about actively expanding that universe over time, revealing new layers,
new history, new rules, new lore.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Stuff that rewards the people paying close attention.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Precisely, it turns the show into a richer, more complex tapestry.
We saw it perfectly with Adventure Time, slowly unveiling the
post apocalyptic truth of Ooh or Gravity Falls, revealing the
town's secret history and conspiracies.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
It makes me watching more rewarding too, right, you spot
things you miss totally.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It fosters that dedicated fan base, the theorizing, the online
communities secting every frame. It sustains engagement way beyond just
watching the latest episode.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Okay, Factor three creative risks.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
This one feels essential for avoiding stagnation. The best shows,
the ones that keep getting better, aren't afraid to shake
things up. The experiment with format, with tone, even with genre,
keeps things fresh, keeps things unpredictable. Think Rick and Morty
constantly breaking the fourth wall or playing with narrative structure,
or Archer just completely rebooting its premise every few years.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, those Coma seasons or vice.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Shows that dare to break their own successful formula are
the ones that tend to last if you just keep
doing the same thing because it worked before. Eventually the
audience gets bored, the well runs dry. Risk is necessary
for growth.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Got it? Factor four? Animation quality seems maybe the most straightforward.
Better visuals are better.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Well, yes, but it's more than just looking prettier. Improved
animation directly enhances the storytelling and the emotional connection. Oh so,
think about the huge in The Simpsons from season one's
roughness to the expressive fluidity of the Golden Era that
allowed for better timing, better visual gags, more character nuanced
or invincible, where the more polished animation in season two
(27:11):
made the brutal fights more impactful and allowed for subtler
expressions of Marx trauma during quiet scenes. Better visuals mean
more tools in the storytelling toolbox, more dynamic action, deeper
emotional expression, a more immersive world.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Overall, it serves the story and characters. Okay, and the
last one Factor five thematic depths.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
This is about moving beyond just surface level plots or jokes.
It's about the willingness to tackle genuinely mature complex themes
like what grief, identity, morality, mental health, political corruption, systemic failure,
things that resonate with adult viewers on an intellectual and
emotional level.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
So it's about the show growing up in a.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Sense exactly BoJack examining addiction and depression with unflinching honesty,
Avatar dealing with the costs of war and the ethics
of power. By ensuring the themes, these shows elevate themselves
beyond simple entertainment. They become discussion points, cultural commentary. They
give adults a reason to stay invested beyond nostalgia or
basic laughs.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Okay, those five factors make a lot of sense. Character development,
world building, creative risks, animation quality, and thematic depth. So
the big question, then, why is animation as a medium
so good at leveraging these factors? What makes it uniquely
suited for this kind of continuous improvement?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
That's the million dollar question, right, and the answer really
lies in animation's inherent elasticity. It's creative freedom.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
How do you mean?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Unlike live action, which is bound by physics, budgets, actor availability, locations,
animation's limits are primarily the creator's imagination.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You can draw anything.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
You can draw anything, you can change styles, you can
create impossible worlds, you can have surreal visuals. You can
blend genres seamlessly. You can do incredibly high concept experimental
stuff like Fish out of Water or The Citadel of.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Ricks, things that would be incredibly difficult or expensive or
just plain impossible in live action.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Exactly that freedom allows animation to pivot, to reinvent, to
take those creative risks much more readily. The medium itself
encourages pushing boundaries.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And there's another point too, about the audience growing with
the show.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Right, that's a fascinating dynamic. Shows like Avatar or Hilda,
maybe even Adventure Time, they often start out fairly accessible,
maybe aimed at a younger demographic initially, but then as
the seasons progress, the show intentionally matures. The themes get
more complex, thematic depth, the characters face harder choices, character development,
(29:36):
the world gets richer world building. The show literally grows
up alongside its original viewers.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So the kids who started watching are now teens or adults,
and the show is still speaking to them, but on
a different level.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Precisely, that adaptability is huge for longevity and building that
lasting cultural impact. It keeps the original audience engaged while
also potentially interacting new, older viewers who appreciate the depth
that's developed.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So these ten shows we've talked about, The Simpsons, Futurama, BoJack,
Rick and Morty, Archer, Avatar, Adventure, Time, Gravity Falls, Hilda Invincible,
they really are just powerful examples of how refining all these.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Elements, the writing, the characters, the visual, the themes is.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
The key to turning a good idea into something truly
special and enduring in animation. Absolutely, So, to wrap things up,
then we've covered a lot of ground today looking at
these ten incredible shows as proof of animation's power to evolve,
to get richer, deeper, more compelling over time.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, it's been a great tour through some real gems.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And the final takeaway for you listening in seems pretty
clear from all this. These series demonstrate that when creators
commit to improving the writing, deepening the characters, taking bold
creative risks, they elevate animation far beyond just kids stuff
or simple gags.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
It proves the medium is capable of profound, lasting cultural impact,
but it requires the willingness to constantly challenge yourself to
build upon your own success, not just.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Coast on it, which actually brings us perfectly to our
final provocative thought for you to chew on. After this,
we've seen how crucial creative risk is. Constantly experimenting. Changing
the formula like Archer or Rick and Morty did is
key to that upward structory. So the question is what
happens when a series becomes too successful, too beloved, too
(31:25):
entrenched in its winning formula.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
H Does it become afraid to risk alienating the huge audience.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It's built Exactly? Can massive success actually stifle the very
innovation needed for continued growth and improvement. That's the tightrope
walk of legacy, isn't it, especially in a medium that
thrives on change. Something to think about.
Welcome to the deep dive.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Good to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
So today we're going to tackle something that I find
pretty fascinating.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Oh yeah, what's that.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
It's this question, right, why do some animated shows just stick?
You know, they become these massive cultural phenomena. People talk
about them for decades, analyze them.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah yeah, total loyalty, intense fandoms. Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
But then you have others maybe they even start out
really strong, seem promising, and then they just kind of
vanish after a season maybe two.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Lade away completely right. It happens all the time. So
what's the secret, sauce.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, that's what we dug into, and looking at the
source material, the answer seems pretty consistent. It's not just
about like maintaining quality, no.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Not at all. It's about growth, h real proactive improvement.
The shows that last, the ones that become classics, they're
the ones that are always evolving, pushing their own limits.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
They actively get better season after season. They don't just
tread water. They actually ascend, you could.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Say, exactly, they build on the foundation.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
So we dove into a whole stack of sources focusing
on specifically a ten animated series, and it's a really
diverse bunch.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Actually, yeah, everything from like foundational comedies to these big modern.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Epics, and the common thread is that consistent upward curve.
They start good, maybe even great, sure, but they just
become so much richer or funnier, or more i don't know,
emotionally deep as they go on.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
And that's our mission for this deep dive, right, We're
trying to give you a shortcut.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Basically, Yeah, unpack the mechanics behind that creative evolution.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
How does that happen? How does refining the writing, the characters,
the visuals. How does that turn a pretty good show
into something truly lasting, something classic?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
And we've kind of boiled it down based on the
sources to maybe five key factors that really let animation
do this kind of continuous improvement thing.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
We'll be planning those out as we go.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, sounds good, let's dive in then part one. We're
looking at shows that started out, you know, pretty much
pure com many lots of absurdity, right joke machines exactly,
but then somehow transformed into these really sophisticated stories tackling
some surprisingly mature themes.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It's a tricky pivot, that one. Yeah, moving from easy
laughs to something with real thematic weight that's.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
High risk, definitely, And the sources, they pretty much immediately
point to one show as the defining example from the
last decade or so.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It has to be BoJack Horseman.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Season one, I mean it was hilarious, right, darkly funny,
exploring this washed up horse actor.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Loads of animal puns, Hollywood satires.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Oh yeah, the puns were relentless, but it was mostly that,
you know, absurdist tumor. If you told me back then
that the show would end up being one of the
most profound TV meditations on mental illness, addiction, trauma, you.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Wouldn't have believed it.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Not a chance.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And that transformation is the genius of the show. It
really highlights one of our key factors, factor five, thematic depth.
How so well the sources track this shift really clearly.
This show stopped just using BoJack's self destruction as like
a setup for jokes and started treating it seriously as
a consequence of his past, his trauma, his mental health struggles.
(03:13):
That's a fundamental.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Shift, and that deeper dive really kicked in around season two,
didn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, that's when they started layering in the backstories, why
is BoJack like this? Exploring his childhood, his past failures,
the cycle of addiction, all with this brutal honesty.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
But it wasn't just the themes. The sources all flagged
how incredibly experimental the show became. They took huge creative risks.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Or absolutely that brings in Factor three creative risks, And
the prime example everyone points to is Fish out of
Water in season three.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Ah, the underwater episode incredible.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Think about it, an entire episode basically dialogue free set
underwater at a film festival. Yeah, it forced them to
tell the story purely through visuals, through animation, through physical comedy.
But at the same time it was devastating, utterly. It
was maybe the most powerful portrait of BoJack's profound loneliness,
his inability to actually connect with anyone, all shown, not told.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Doing something like that structurally in the middle of what's
ostensibly a comedy, that's a massive gamble.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Huge, and it proved the creators really understood animation's unique power.
They could explore these heavy, existential themes using a visual
language that honestly, live action just couldn't replicate in the
same way.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And they kept that up right that willingness to get messy,
even complex.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Right through to the end. The final season didn't offer
easy answers or neat bows.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
No quick fixes for BoJack. No.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
It had to deal with closure, sure, but it balanced
that with this really difficult, realistic ambiguity about recovery, about consequences,
about whether change is even possible.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
It reached a level of complexity you just don't see
in most sitcoms, animated or live action.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Truly exceptional.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Okay, sticking with that idea of balancing total irreverence with
something deep. Next up is Rick and Morty.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Ah. Yes, another heavy hitter.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Definitely started out leaning hard into crude humor, wild sci
fi absurdity. Season one was inventive for sure, but maybe
a bit scattershot. Yeah, scattershot is a good word. Lots
of shock value. Felt like they were throwing everything at
the wall sometimes.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
And the growth here the improvement. It's a fantastic example
of how refining the writing, touching on factor three, creative
risks and just overall quality, shifts the entire feel of
a show.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
How did it shift exactly? It didn't mature in the
same way BoJack did me.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
No, not quite the same kind of emotional depth focus,
at least not Initially, it was more about finding this
critical balance that they kept the irreverent, often cynical comedy,
but they started making it serve the bigger, often quite bleak,
existential storytelling. The writing went from just being cleverly and
shocking to being genuinely ambitious.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
You can really see that ambition in the episodes that
just blow the world wide up open without losing laughs.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Exactly, and the sources consistently bring up the Rick Lantis
mix up from season.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Three, Oh brilliant episode.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
On the surface, it's just a side trip to the
citadel of Rix and Morties while our main deo are
off doing something else right, but it becomes this incredibly layered,
dark exploration of society, hierarchy, inequality, power, fascism, all playing
out among infinite versions of the same two guys.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
It's staggering world building, but it's disguised as a series
of vignettes and jokes.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Precisely they used what felt like a one off adventure
to retroactively deepen the entire lore and hammer home this
central idea about Rix nihilism, how even infinite potential curdles
into dysfunction.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
And then they started weaving in more serialized stuff too,
didn't they about Rick's pass, the family dynamics.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Yes, those threads got stronger and more complex each season.
Rick's mysterious history, Beth's identity crisis, the whole family's messed
up relationships. It rewarded viewers who paid attention to the
bigger picture, unfolding bit, the crazy adventures.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
It became much more than just joke a minute.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Sci fi definitely. Okay, So the third one in this
sort of comedy to depth section is maybe a bit
of an outlier Archer.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, because Archer's approach was different. Again, it relied on
constant reinvention, didn't it.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Exactly reinvention as refinement? Season one was fantastic, sharp, super irreverent,
spy parody, loads of crude workplace humor, that amazing banter.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, the dialogue was instantly iconic.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
But that formula, as great as it was, could easily
have gotten stale over what fourteen seasons easily, So they
actively fought stagnation. This is pure factor three creative risks.
They just kept tearing down the premise and starting fresh.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Archer vice in season five, where they suddenly become cocaine
smugglers right.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Or the seasons where they were private detectives or in space,
or the coma dream seasons, completely different settings and genres.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
It's kind of amazing They kept the show's voice and
character dynamics so consistent through all those radical shifts.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
It really is, and you can see practical improvements too.
Touching on factor for animation quality, the animation itself got
noticeably slicker.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, more dynamics, especially the action sequences.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
They went from mostly static banter scenes early on to
staging some pretty complex fluid action later.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And crucially, the characters didn't just reset with each genre change.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
No, that's key. Their histories mattered, Stirling Archer himself, Lanna Kane,
their whole messed up found family, the relationships of all.
They explored things like loyalty, becoming parents with aj Right.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Fatherhood for Archer was a big one.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah, personal growth surprisingly enough, so Archer proved you could
keep improving, keep things fresh within a very joke dense,
often episodic format just by being incredibly bold and constantly
hitting the reset button on the world around the characters.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Okay, one more for this first part. A classic futurama
Ah yes, another cornerstone.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
And like some others, it started funny, obviously matt grinding pedigree.
But looking back, those early episodes could be a bit uneven,
maybe more focused on sci fi gags than really deep
character stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I think that's fair. It took a little while to
find its heart, and that's where Futurama's upward trajectory really lies,
finding its emotional core. That's factor one character development in action.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
It started blending the hilarious genre parody and the clever
sci fi concepts with these moments of genuine, unexpected poignancy.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And that blend is what cemented its legacy. I think
there's one episode that just perfectly encapsulates that shift, isn't there.
The one everyone talks.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
About has to be Jurassic Bark season four.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, see Moore the dog m Man.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's not just funny sci fi. It's genuinely heartbreaking. It's
all about Fry's connection to his past. This simple loyalty
of a dog waiting for him.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
It just hits you, it really does, and it showed
the writers weren't afraid to go there emotionally exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
That episode and others that followed showed this sudden, massive leap,
and emotional depth. They started exploring fry selflessness, the crew's
weird bond, the unspoken connections.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Leela's origins, benders, brief moments of well, not quite humanity
but something close.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Right. It moved beyond just parodying sci fi tropes. They
started pairing the ambitious concepts with real feeling human, robot, alien, whatever.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And investing in those relationships. It made the jokes land
better too, didn't It gave them more weight.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely, it gave everything higher stakes and ensure the show
endured even through multiple cancelations and revivals. People cared about
the Planet Express crew.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
That makes sense, okay, So that focus on character depth
and evolving relationships is actually a perfect bridge to our
next section, Part two.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Right where we look at shows that maybe started charming
and episodic, but then used ongoing character arcs and crucially
expanded mythology to become these huge, sprawling complex sagas.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
This is where factor two world building really comes to
the forefront.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Definitely. This category shows the power of smart serialization, taking
a fund concept and just layering it year after year,
turning standalone adventures into pieces of a much bigger.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Puzzle, rewarding the dedicated viewer exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And creating these incredibly rich, high stakes narratives out of
what might have seemed simple at first.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
And I think when you talk about that kind of elevation,
that modern animated saga format, there's one show that just looms.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Large, shadowy Avatar The Last Airbender.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
A gold standard season one looking back, it's great, people
love it, but it is pretty straightforward structurally, Yeah, very.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Much an adventure of the week. Feel Ang needs to
learn water bending, so they go find a master, solve
a local village's problem, move on classic quest structures, tosodic barry.
But the sources really emphasize how quickly and deliberately that
changed the transformation into this grand epic saga was baked in.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
How did they manage that.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
By fully embracing factor two world building, Especially from season
two onwards, they started introducing much richer political intrigue, more
moral ambiguity.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Right, the world wasn't just a backdrop for bending cool
elemental powers anymore.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
No, it became this complex system history, politics, the consequences
of one hundred year war, imperialism, genocide, heavy stuff. They
explored the difficulty and the brutal realities of trying to
save a world that's been consumed by conflict, and.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
That's where the moral complexity really kicked in, wasn't it
even for the good.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Guys, Absolutely and ang struggling with the expectation to kill
the fire Lord, Katara grappling with revenge. The show wasn't
afraid to make the heroes face difficult choices with no
easy answers, and the.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Absolute core of that improvement, the thing everyone points to
is Zuko.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Oh Zuko's redemption arc. It's legendary for a reason. It's
the ultimate demonstration of factor one character development.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
He starts as this, you know, kind of one note antagonist,
angry teenager, obsessed with capturing the Avatar to restore his honor.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Pretty simple motivation, but by the end of the series,
he's one of the most complex, deeply explored characters, maybe
ever in animation.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
That internal struggle, his family's legacy versus his own conscience, his.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Slow, painful journey to figuring out who he actually is,
what he believes in, finding his own self worth away
from his father's approval.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It's incredible, and crucially, it wasn't rushed, not at all.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
It unfolded painstakingly over three full seasons. The writers allowed
him to fail to backslide, to genuinely change and earn
that redemption. It showed immense confidence and long form storytelling.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And you mentioned the themes maturing. The technical side had
to keep.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Up too, right, definitely Factor four. Animation quality stepped up
significantly by season three. The action sequences, the bending battles
that were incredibly well choreographed, fluid, and impactful.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
The finale felt huge.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, it managed to balance that epic scale, the high
stakes action with Ang's personal philosophical struggle about violence. The
show literally grew up with its audience, starting accessible but
maturing in complexity, which is why it resonates so strongly
even now.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Such a great example. Okay, next up a show that's
a very different path to revealing its depth.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Adventure Time, Ah, the Land of Ooh talk about is
starting quirky right.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Early Adventure Time was just this explosion of color, randomness,
non sequiturs, pure delightful cartoon.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Weirdness, mathematical algebraic, just silly fun.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But underneath all that surface.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Charm lurked this absolutely massive, surprisingly dark mythology.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Exactly the transformation here was all about the slow reveal. Yeah,
gradually unveiling the post apocalyptic origins of Ooh the Great Mushroom.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
War, and these incredibly profound themes started emerging, growing up, identity,
memory loss. Yeah, the weight of history.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It's like Factor two world building, but done in reverse almost.
They built the funhouse first, then slowly showed you the
foundations were built on something much older and sadder.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
That's a great way to put it. And by season
four or five they were really diving into that darker territory.
The big one is the Ice King's backstory.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Simon Patrick cough oh.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Man revealing he was this human antiquarium, driven mad by
a magic crown, his tragic relationship with the young Marcelene,
the vampire queen, before he lost himself.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
It's devastating, dealing with loss, the cost of magic, enduring love,
across memory loss. It's incredibly heavy stuff for a show
that also features, you know, talking candy people, and.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
That's the magic, right. They made you care deeply about
these absurd characters by giving them these rich, often tragic histories.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And the visuals evolved too, didn't they to match that
emotional weight.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, The animation became really experimental at times, another nod
to Factor three creative risks. The sources often mention episodes
like I Remember You.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Where Simon and Marceleine sing together.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and the animation is so minimalist, just raw emotion
conveyed through simple drawings and that heartbreaking song. It allowed
the show to transcend being just a kid show and
become this genre bending cult classic that adults could analyze
and connect with deeply because of that slow burned lore.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Amazing stuff. Now a show with a somewhat similar trajectory,
but maybe more compressed, more focused on mystery, Gravity falls.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Right, another fan favorite with a dedicated following.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Season one was great fun mystery comedy Dipper and Mabel
solving paranormal puzzles in this weird town. Mostly standalone monster
of the Week type.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Episode terming funny, clever, yeah, but yeah, mostly self contained adventures.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
But then season two hit and it felt like the
show just declared its intentions absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
It pivoted heart into full serialization. Suddenly, all those little
background details, the codes, the symbols from season one, they
all started.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Connecting, weaving this incredibly complex web of conspiracy, secret Society's
family history. The stakes just shot through the.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Roof, and the source's praise how tightly written it was,
how it managed to balance the ongoing mystery, the humor,
the genuine heart between the twins, and moments of actual
kid friendly horror.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It juggled a lot of tones extremely well.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
And the turning point episode, the one that blew everyone's
minds and cemented the show's serialized brilliants, was not what
he seems.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Oh yeah, the reveal about grunkle Stan that.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
He had a secret twin brother, Ford, the actual author
of the journals, hidden away for decades.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
It was shocking, and it instantly recontextualized everything Weird Stan
had done throughout the entire first season and made you
realize they'd been playing the long game all along.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Total commitment to factor two world building in factor one
character development, hitting both simultaneously. It deepened the mysteries, deepened
the characters Stan, especially without losing any of the charm
or humor.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
No wonder it became such a binge watching phenomenon you
felt rewarded for paying close attention.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Exactly every detail mattered.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Okay, final one in this world building group Hilda a
more recent entry.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Yeah. The Netflix series based on the graphic novels visually
gorgeous from day.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
One, absolutely stunning, and season one was just lovely, heartfelt,
this fearless, blue haired girl exploring an enchanting world filled
with trolls and spirits, but maybe a bit simple story wise.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Simple Yeah, focused on establishing Hilda, her mom, twigged the
deer Fox, the move to Trollberg.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
So how did it improve? It didn't have like a
huge dark secret like Adventure Time or Gravity Falls.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
No, Its transformation was more subtle, but definitely there. It
leaned into expanding the world, building within its existing storybook aesthetic,
diving deeper into the specific rules and mythology of Trollberg,
the Woodman, the Mara, the weather.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Spirits, refining the world rather than revealing a hidden one exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
And refining Hilda's relationships with her mom, with her new
human friends Freda and David, understanding the creatures.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Around her, and Season two seemed to raise the stakes.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
A bit Yeah. Season two brought in more complex challenges,
higher stakes characters like the Enigmatic Librarian, who added more
layers to Trollberg's mysteries. It forced Hilda to grow up
a bit, face more responsibility.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
All while keeping that cozy, charming vibe.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
That was key. It maintained its unique tone and the animation.
Fact four, animation quality just kept getting richer, more detailed,
more immersive with each season right through to the movie finale.
It balanced adventure, emotion and these coming of age themes beautifully.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Okay, great examples of world building there. That takes us
to part three, And here we're looking at two shows
the sources flagged as kind of outliers, but crucial ones.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Right. One is the absolute foundation of the modern genre,
and the other is a very intense, very now superhero entry.
Different paths to improvement.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
You basically can't talk about animation evolution without talking about
The Simpsons. Got to start there, the blueprint really.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
For better or worse. Yeah, and those early seasons, I
mean they were revolutionary at the time, obviously nothing else.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Like it, groundbreaking, but watching them now, they feel kind.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Of raw, definitely raw, clunky animation, the writing still finding
its voice compared to what we think of as peak Simpsons.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
And the sources spend a lot of time tracing that improvement,
which happened remarkably fast.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Actually very fast. The show just honed its edge incredibly quickly.
The satire got sharper, the character work deepened, the comedic
timing became razor precise, leading into what everyone calls the
Golden era.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Generally pegged is what seasons three through eight something like that.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, roughly that period, that's when it was just untouchable.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So what drove that improvement? Was it just the writers
getting better?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
That was huge? Yes, the talent in that writer's room
was legendary, but it was also the visual evolution Factor four,
animation quality, moving from that rough, almost wobbly.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Early look, Yeah, very dish.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You're the vibrant, expressive, established style. We all recognize. That
allowed for better visual gags, more nuanced character expressions.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
But the core was the writing. Right that balance they stressed.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Absolutely, they perfected, balancing genuine, sometimes really moving family moments
the heart of the show with the most savage, biting
social commentary imaginable. That's factor five. Thematic depth working at
an incredibly high level.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And it wasn't just about the main family.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
No, that's crucial to the Golden era. Springfield itself came
alive all those secondary characters, Moe Apu, Chief Wigham, Skinner,
mister Burns, ned Flanders.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
They weren't just joke dispensers anymore exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
They became fully fleshed out, iconic characters with their own lives, quirks,
and contributions to the town's social fabric. The world felt
incredibly rich and lived in.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Is there one episode from that peak era that kind
of crystallizes that perfect balance of humor, heart and satire.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
The sources often point to Homer's enemy from season.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Eight, Frank Grimes, or Grimy as he liked to be called.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Poor Grimy. He comes into the power plant. He's hardworkingetent,
basically a normal person.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And he just cannot comprehend Homer.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Cannot deal with Homer's incompetence, his laziness is under lack
of awareness. And yet Homer has a house, a family,
He's been to space.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Well, Grimey has struggled for everything.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
It's hilarious, but it's also this devastating piece of social satire.
It's about unfairness, about how society sometimes rewards mediocrity or
sheer dumb luck. It's funny, but it has tea. That's
the golden era Simpsons.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Wow, Yeah, that episode is something else. Okay, shifting heres
completely now from the foundational giant to a very modern,
very intense example. Invincible, the Amazon Prime series debuted twenty
twenty one. Season one was well.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It grabbed you, Oh yeah, established the world, the characters,
Mark Grayson finding his powers, and then bam, yeah, that twist.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
The Onnyman betrayal at the end of the first episode,
brutal unexpected set the tone immediately.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So how did it improve from that already high impact start.
The show's improvement arc has been remarkably steep, hasn't it.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah, it refined itself very quickly after that huge set
up in season one. The transformation was about leaning immediately
and intensely into the consequences the emotional core, right.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Dealing with Marx trauma from fighting his own father, the
moral complexities of being a hero in a world that
violent and gray. That's diving straight into Factor five, thematic depth.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
And the sources. Definitely note the visual upgrade between seasons.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Big time Fact four. Animation quality got a noticeable boost
in season two. He became more polished, more fluid.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Which helped with those insane fight scenes. Right, they're known
for being incredibly viscerle.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Definitely, but it wasn't just for the gore and action.
The improved animation also allowed for much more expressive, subtle
character moments. You could really read marx exhaustion, his fear,
his pained expressions during dialogue scenes. It supported the emotional delivery.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And the writing kept pushing things too.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Oh yeah, got much bolder, tackling huge themes intergalactic war,
betrayal on a cosmic scale, family legacies, the immense sacrifice
involved in heroism.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
The multiverse stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, weaving in this complex multiversal narrative that honestly feels
as deep and serialized as anything in the big live
action superhero franchises. Invincible is kind of setting a new
bar for how quickly an adult animated series can establish
its world and then just exponentially build depth and intensity
on top of it.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Okay, so that's our ten shows. We've got the Simpson's Futurama, BoJack,
Rick and Morty Archer, An Avatar Adventure, Time, Gravity Falls, Helda,
and Invincible.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Quite a list, the Fantastic Range, all proving this core
idea of upward trajectory.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
So now Part four, let's try to synthesize this, pull
it all together. What are the common threads? What are
those specific mechanics that allow these shows and animation in
general to keep improving like this, right, this.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Is the why and the how. We've seen what these
great shows getting better. Now, let's unpack the engine driving it.
And as we've hinted, the sources consistently point to five
key factors that unite these series despite their differences.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Okay, let's stick them off. Factor one you already mentioned
quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Character development, absolutely crucial. It's about the show continuously deepening
its characters, both main and supporting, over multiple seasons. This
creates that long term emotional hook for the audience.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
You really need to care about who you're watching exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Think about BoJack's six season struggle, which wasn't neat or
linear at all, or Zuko's painful earned redemption we talked about.
These characters aren't static props for plots.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
They feel like they change, mess up, learn are not right.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
They're in believable motion. The writers aren't afraid to let
them fail, to let them fundamentally evolve. That makes you
stick around. You're invested in their fate. That's longevity right there.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Okay, makes sense. Factor two world building.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, and this isn't just about having a cool setting. Initially,
it's about actively expanding that universe over time, revealing new layers,
new history, new rules, new lore.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Stuff that rewards the people paying close attention.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Precisely, it turns the show into a richer, more complex tapestry.
We saw it perfectly with Adventure Time, slowly unveiling the
post apocalyptic truth of Ooh or Gravity Falls, revealing the
town's secret history and conspiracies.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
It makes me watching more rewarding too, right, you spot
things you miss totally.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It fosters that dedicated fan base, the theorizing, the online
communities secting every frame. It sustains engagement way beyond just
watching the latest episode.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Okay, Factor three creative risks.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
This one feels essential for avoiding stagnation. The best shows,
the ones that keep getting better, aren't afraid to shake
things up. The experiment with format, with tone, even with genre,
keeps things fresh, keeps things unpredictable. Think Rick and Morty
constantly breaking the fourth wall or playing with narrative structure,
or Archer just completely rebooting its premise every few years.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, those Coma seasons or vice.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Shows that dare to break their own successful formula are
the ones that tend to last if you just keep
doing the same thing because it worked before. Eventually the
audience gets bored, the well runs dry. Risk is necessary
for growth.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Got it? Factor four? Animation quality seems maybe the most straightforward.
Better visuals are better.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Well, yes, but it's more than just looking prettier. Improved
animation directly enhances the storytelling and the emotional connection. Oh so,
think about the huge in The Simpsons from season one's
roughness to the expressive fluidity of the Golden Era that
allowed for better timing, better visual gags, more character nuanced
or invincible, where the more polished animation in season two
(27:11):
made the brutal fights more impactful and allowed for subtler
expressions of Marx trauma during quiet scenes. Better visuals mean
more tools in the storytelling toolbox, more dynamic action, deeper
emotional expression, a more immersive world.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Overall, it serves the story and characters. Okay, and the
last one Factor five thematic depths.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
This is about moving beyond just surface level plots or jokes.
It's about the willingness to tackle genuinely mature complex themes
like what grief, identity, morality, mental health, political corruption, systemic failure,
things that resonate with adult viewers on an intellectual and
emotional level.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
So it's about the show growing up in a.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Sense exactly BoJack examining addiction and depression with unflinching honesty,
Avatar dealing with the costs of war and the ethics
of power. By ensuring the themes, these shows elevate themselves
beyond simple entertainment. They become discussion points, cultural commentary. They
give adults a reason to stay invested beyond nostalgia or
basic laughs.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Okay, those five factors make a lot of sense. Character development,
world building, creative risks, animation quality, and thematic depth. So
the big question, then, why is animation as a medium
so good at leveraging these factors? What makes it uniquely
suited for this kind of continuous improvement?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
That's the million dollar question, right, and the answer really
lies in animation's inherent elasticity. It's creative freedom.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
How do you mean?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Unlike live action, which is bound by physics, budgets, actor availability, locations,
animation's limits are primarily the creator's imagination.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
You can draw anything.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
You can draw anything, you can change styles, you can
create impossible worlds, you can have surreal visuals. You can
blend genres seamlessly. You can do incredibly high concept experimental
stuff like Fish out of Water or The Citadel of.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Ricks, things that would be incredibly difficult or expensive or
just plain impossible in live action.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Exactly that freedom allows animation to pivot, to reinvent, to
take those creative risks much more readily. The medium itself
encourages pushing boundaries.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And there's another point too, about the audience growing with
the show.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Right, that's a fascinating dynamic. Shows like Avatar or Hilda,
maybe even Adventure Time, they often start out fairly accessible,
maybe aimed at a younger demographic initially, but then as
the seasons progress, the show intentionally matures. The themes get
more complex, thematic depth, the characters face harder choices, character development,
(29:36):
the world gets richer world building. The show literally grows
up alongside its original viewers.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So the kids who started watching are now teens or adults,
and the show is still speaking to them, but on
a different level.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Precisely, that adaptability is huge for longevity and building that
lasting cultural impact. It keeps the original audience engaged while
also potentially interacting new, older viewers who appreciate the depth
that's developed.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So these ten shows we've talked about, The Simpsons, Futurama, BoJack,
Rick and Morty, Archer, Avatar, Adventure, Time, Gravity Falls, Hilda Invincible,
they really are just powerful examples of how refining all these.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Elements, the writing, the characters, the visual, the themes is.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
The key to turning a good idea into something truly
special and enduring in animation. Absolutely, So, to wrap things up,
then we've covered a lot of ground today looking at
these ten incredible shows as proof of animation's power to evolve,
to get richer, deeper, more compelling over time.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, it's been a great tour through some real gems.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And the final takeaway for you listening in seems pretty
clear from all this. These series demonstrate that when creators
commit to improving the writing, deepening the characters, taking bold
creative risks, they elevate animation far beyond just kids stuff
or simple gags.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
It proves the medium is capable of profound, lasting cultural impact,
but it requires the willingness to constantly challenge yourself to
build upon your own success, not just.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Coast on it, which actually brings us perfectly to our
final provocative thought for you to chew on. After this,
we've seen how crucial creative risk is. Constantly experimenting. Changing
the formula like Archer or Rick and Morty did is
key to that upward structory. So the question is what
happens when a series becomes too successful, too beloved, too
(31:25):
entrenched in its winning formula.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
H Does it become afraid to risk alienating the huge audience.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
It's built Exactly? Can massive success actually stifle the very
innovation needed for continued growth and improvement. That's the tightrope
walk of legacy, isn't it, especially in a medium that
thrives on change. Something to think about.
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