Live From the The Himalayas and an Interview with Jeremy Kroeker, ADV Author

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Alright, listeners.

(00:03):
We're a bit sorry for the delay.
Maybe we're not that sorry atall.
We are at the world's highestmedieval pass at Um Ninh La.
And we're actually in theparking area right now, which is
19,024 feet.
It's really hard to thinkstraight at this altitude.
We've been here for about six orseven minutes.
We should be here only a totalof 15.
And we apologize that thepodcast will be late, but we are

(00:26):
in a hovel and we really don'thave internet except for a
couple of hours in the morningand a couple of hours in the
evening.
And it's hard to and get thingsrolling in that short a period
of time.
So we're also going to do alittle oxygen sensor.

SPEAKER_01 (00:41):
Yeah, we did our oxygen sensors.
He is at 71% SpO2, and I'm at80%.
So it just goes to show you'renot thinking straight.
And I also wanted to mention inthis podcast, we're playing two
original songs by Jeremy.
And I'm sorry we forgot tomention it.
But on that note, let's rollwith the intro.

SPEAKER_06 (00:59):
Welcome to the ADV Cannonball Podcast.
where we discuss all things ontwo wheels, the adventure bike
cannonball, and othermotorcycle-related nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Season three, episode 16.
Welcome to Adventure CannonballPodcast.
I'm your host, Taylor Lawson,and I'm joined by global
traveler and my good friend,Aaron Pufall.
Yeah, buddy.
Thanks for having me.
Where are you sitting today?
I'm

SPEAKER_01 (01:38):
sitting right across from you, Muppet.

SPEAKER_02 (01:41):
Yeah, okay.
Good point.
Right.
So we are having a lay day inlay, and we are sitting just
outside the Druk Hotel.
And yeah, today's our lay day.
It's our chance to acclimate tothe 3,500 meters.
Or 9,000.
11,500 feet.
11,500 feet.

SPEAKER_01 (02:00):
Yeah.
So.
First things first, my friend.
We're forgetting our tradition.
Yeah.
First things first.
We do not have an IPA.
However, we have somethingcalled the legendary Godfuck.
It is just the beer, but it'sall we got.
But cheers.

SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
There's to it, my friend.
I did just want to say, youknow, there's a bit more to
this.
You know, it's a tall boy,right?
And it is the legendary premiumstrong beer.
Just to be politically accuratehere.
Get it all in there.
It is strong.
It feels like a good 8%.
Nice.
We have got an action-packedshow for you today.
First, you'll hear from ourVashi, our fixer on this trip.

(02:35):
Then we'll bring in two riderswho are on this trip with us,
Chris Watson and Chris Jobe.
And we'll get their respectivetakes on the different sections
of different passes that we'vehad in these last two days.
And then we'll wrap with anintro of another great interview
conducted by Aaron, this timewith adventure rider and author
Jeremy Kroger.
Before we jump in, I'd like toanswer a few listener questions.

(02:55):
What type of bike?
We are on a rented fleet ofone-year-old Royal Enfield
Himalayan 450s.
These are the ones, if you'rewatching the series, this is the
last one that Itchy Boots did arun around this part of the
world actually with.
And fairly new in the sense thatmine had 10,000 kilometers or
6,200 miles on it when I pickedit up.

(03:17):
Question number two was, howreadily is fuel available?
And the answer to that is prettyavailable.
Obviously, there's no fuel stopson the passes, but these bikes
These bikes don't run.
They don't burn that much fuel,we've learned.
So when we get back down at thelittle towns, it's easy to get
fuel.
And what we do at the end ofeach day is the first person in

(03:38):
opens the fuel pump and then weall roll through and just keep
filling the bikes.
That leads into the thirdquestion of how much are we
actually burning?
And we're actually burning aboutseven liters or about just under
two gallons a day.
And the last question is whatkind of distances are we riding?
And we're doing about 101 130 to155 miles or 208 to 250

(04:00):
kilometers per day and it'sreally not it's just like we
talk about in the cannonballrally it's really not about how
many miles that you're ridingit's about how long you're in
the saddle so the first day wewere in the saddle we did get
breaks but from from the time wekicked out to the time we
actually stopped it was about anine hour day and then day

(04:21):
number two again we're only twodays into this nine days of
riding day number two was isabout the same, maybe a half an
hour long.
So to get more questionsanswered, keep sending those
questions in, and we'll do adeep dive on the whole
experience here, including theseother days.
We'll talk more about that inthe next episode.
And with that, I'd like to rolla clip that we asked Urvashi,

(04:44):
who is our fixer on this, and weasked her some questions at
lunch earlier today.

UNKNOWN (04:52):
Music

SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
I am sitting here at the Tibetan kitchen, also known
locally as the Tibetan kitchenin Leh, having lunch with our
fixer, Urvashi.
Welcome to the podcast, Urvashi.

SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Hello.

SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
So what I'd like to ask you is what has been the
most interesting part orunexpected part of being a fixer
for this particular group inLeh, considering that we are,
for the most part, Westernerscoming into India?

SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
The most interesting part of this group is that I got
to be with them and it was animpromptu thing.
It was unexpected.
So yeah, that's been the mostinteresting part.
And I've got a bunch of lovelyguys, young guys that I'm
hanging out with.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:45):
I think that she was being generous and kind when she
said young, but so we'll takeit.
So has there been anythinginteresting that you've had to
tell people when you book arestaurant?
Is there any information youhave to give in advance when we
show up?

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
So given that you guys are not used to the spice
levels, that the Indians go by,we've had to explain to them
literally how much is your spicetolerance and the kind of food
that they should be cooking andthe kind of spices that they
should be using.

SPEAKER_02 (06:15):
And how have they responded to that request?

SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
I think so far it's been okay.

SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
I'd say from our perspective, it's been
excellent.
Yesterday was quite a lot ofspice.
And then yesterday was quite anice little bit of a bland
lunch, which was just a good dayto give our bodies a bit of a
moment to rest from the amazingspicy food that we've been
having so far.
In follow-up to that question,has there been anybody, you
know, right now we're sitting at3,600 or 3,800 meters and acute

(06:46):
mountain sickness, also known asAMS, is something that we've had
to deal with.
Have you had any particularsituations that you've had to
deal with regarding AMS?

SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
Yeah, one of the photographers from the crew, he
experienced it since last nightand we had to take him to the
hospital he had to get two shotsbecause he was throwing up a lot
and his oxygen levels were quitelow so yeah we had to take him
to the hospital to get thatfixed

SPEAKER_02 (07:14):
yeah it's important to know thanks for that it's
it's important to know that it'sreally you need to take care of
your body you need to take itseriously and drinking a lot of
water is one of the things youneed to do potentially not
smoking also a good thing andyeah generally taking care of
yourself and drinking a lot ofwater and trying to keep your
stress levels low and takingtime to acclimate, which is

(07:36):
actually one of the things thatwe're doing here in Leh.
We're taking a day here to dowhat?

SPEAKER_00 (07:40):
We've taken a day here, a rest day, so that our
bodies get acclimatized to thehigh altitude.
And it's important to do that sothat our bodies get used to the
oxygen levels here because wedon't really stay.
In general, we are at much loweraltitudes.

(08:01):
So, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
Yeah.
fantastic thanks very much foryour comments I appreciate that
adventure endurance

SPEAKER_05 (08:08):
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you to ride from coast to coastnavigating checkpoint to
checkpoint by GPS and pushingpast your limits take on every
off-road stage and you'll earnbragging rights and the coveted

(08:29):
rough rider trophy own thetwisty tarmac and you'll claim
the Checkpoint Crusher award.
Every mile counts, every choicematters.
Rack up the points and your namecould be etched forever on the
winner's cup.
This year the routes are harder,the mileage is longer, the glory
is greater.
The ADV Cannonball Rally is openfor registration.

(08:52):
Fortune favors the bold.
Sign up today.

SPEAKER_02 (09:06):
And we are back.
So one of the things thatUrbashi talked about was AMS,
acute mountain sickness.
And later today, we will checkin with the photographer.
Later in this week, we'll checkwith him.
But we did just see him taking arooftop picture of us.
So we're guessing that he's okaybecause he seemed to be smiling.
Maybe this gave him a couple ofreally good shots and he's

(09:27):
flying.
But either way, he seems to beback in the saddle.
And with that, I would like tointroduce our guests.
We've got Chris Watson and ChrisJob, Chris and Chris, welcome to
the podcast.
Hey, thanks for asking

SPEAKER_07 (09:40):
me.
Yeah, guys, really great to behere.
Nice to be

SPEAKER_02 (09:43):
here.
So for full transparency, soAaron and I are on comms.
We had Vijay.
Earlier, V-Day with Vijay wasthe episode I did with him.
He had to leave, unfortunately.
But so it was Vijay and Aaronand me, and we were all on
comms.
And whenever we'd say, we'retalking about where people were
positioned in the riding, we'dsay, who's in front of you?
You go, Chris.
And I'd say, who's Chris?

(10:03):
So to be clear and for fulltransparency, Chris Watson, we
refer to you as UK Chris, andChris Jobe, we refer to you as
Sweden Chris.
And with that, Aaron, I'll handit over to you.

SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
Yeah.
UK Chris, thanks for being here.
On our first day, the ridingbegan with pure chaos.
We were in the city, there wasmayhem, there was horns, we were
lane filtering, and then all ofa sudden we were climbing up
through what could only bedescribed as the white powder
mountain roads loaded withmassive trucks and switchbacks.
So in all honesty, was this whatyou were expecting, or did to

(10:36):
catch you off guard and how didyou fare?

SPEAKER_08 (10:38):
Well, where do you start?
Yeah, it was chaos from thehotel.
I think everybody was a littlebit apprehensive, not sure what
everybody was going to be likeand how we were going to react
once we got on the streets, evenwhether they're driving on the
right side of the road.
Yeah, I was glad to get out ofStringer and understanding the

(11:01):
road system.
Luckily, I drive on that side ofthe road anyhow, so that was an
easy one for me.
It was a bit of disorganizedchaos as we weren't sure which
way, how much speed, how long wewere going to go, what we were
going to do.
But anyhow, it settled out andwe started up into the
mountains, which was a littlebit refreshing, I believe.

(11:23):
Once we started up themountains, you were thinking,
well, yeah, this is why I'vecome here.
You know, the scenery, thelight, everything was pretty
good.
Really enjoyed that sectionuntil you start getting this
roads that aren't roads they'renot there there's just powder
there's shit there's trucksemitting this black screen that

(11:44):
you can't see through thensomebody decides to overtake and
you've got to follow and there'sa car coming the other way at
the same time you're thinkingholy shit what we're going to do
but you know somehow we kind ofmanaged it there was one
interesting one I think the bikein front of me I think Aaron
just passed me and then thisbike went in front of a car and

(12:04):
the car hit him not one of ourguys I have to say are local but
we all shot through after thatand we kind of calmed down and
got it together so as we wentfurther up the passes yeah the
first break I think when we gotI can't remember whether it was
coffee or whatever but we wereall smiling buzzing high-fiving

(12:26):
because it was certainly a greatstart to the day and the day
only got better tighter roadsmore dangerous situations people
being Crazy, that's all I cansay.
There was a few cats lives lost.
by more than one person, youknow?
But what an experience.
Did it come to my expectationsof the journey on day one?

(12:51):
Yeah, it did.
You know, and I've done a coupleof rides before in my time.
And yeah, the nerves still wentfrom my guts and I had a fucking
great day.
Excuse my language, sorry.
But it was spot on.
A really, really good day.

SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Yeah, thanks for that candid description.
I couldn't have described itbetter.
And on day two, we were hit withan unexpected surprise.
Well, for me anyways.
We hit an amazing strip ofblacktop.
It was winding.
It was well over 10,000 feet.
The motorcycles were struggling,and I was not expecting that.
And the blacktop was interruptedwith missing sections and

(13:29):
boulders and all kinds ofdetritus all over the place.
Chris, Swedish Chris, what wasyour impression of day two?

SPEAKER_07 (13:37):
So day two started out a bit chaotic in the town.
actually you know we ended upgoing the wrong way immediately
like we took a wrong turn andthen you know the whole group
had to do a 180 turn which was abit interesting with about 200
people around them so you knowbut we got it done and then we
got out of town we started toclimb out with Cargill and
immediately the twist startedyou know and the group after day

(14:00):
one had already like gelled witheach other and everything really
good riding you know it is Iwould say quite an advanced
level ride because there are alot of twisties in there.
When you're going around thecorners as well, you need to
watch out for a lot of sand,fallen rocks.
There could be a truck comingaround the corner on your side

(14:21):
of the road.
The corners of them stick outquite far, so you do need to be
really careful when you're goingaround the corners.
But there is a technique to it.
After the first day, you beginto get used to how the locals
think and how it all works andhow it works with the horns as
well.
The horns are everything here,right?
There's a whole language withthe horns.
So a little beep-beep means thatI'm here when it gets a bit more

(14:42):
intense it means like okay I'mreally here like you're getting
in my way and then when it'sfull on it's like okay I'm in
danger now so yeah there's awhole language there for sure
but when we got up into themountains we started to do the
twisties there and you knowthere's different levels of
riders in the group that they'reall pretty pretty good riders
but we started to separate a bitbut we don't go too fast so that

(15:04):
you know someone ends up goingoff the edge of a cliff or
something like that but we'renot slow either you know there's
really good pace and then thoseadvanced riders that really want
you know to go around thecorners really you know these
twisties really quickly and dohave a really good time as well
and that's where I come from youknow I'm used to riding sports
bikes on the road so there'ssomething for everybody here

(15:27):
whether it's off-road we haven'tdone that yet that will be in
the next few days but on road aswell if you really like that
sort of thing there was some ofthe best roads I've ever rode on
going up that hill there I meanthe amount of hairpin bends that
we did.
We probably did like, I don'tknow, 100, 150 really cool
bends.
And yeah, you can really get agood adrenaline rush.

(15:49):
As you get higher, you can startto feel the effects of the
altitude.
But for me, it wasn't too bad.
And for the rest of the group,we haven't had any major
problems, really, the riders.
So yeah, overall, it was anawesome ride.
I mean, definitely the bestriding I've done in my lifetime,
for sure.
And I come from the motorbikeindustry.
When I was a lot younger, I'veridden a lot of bikes.

(16:09):
I've ridden quite a lot in theUK but actually these bikes were
perfect to go around theHimalayas with because you don't
need too much power but it'sreally fun to work the gearbox
and get the bike moving you knowand think about okay I'm going
into this corner I need to lookahead to see exactly like what
cars are coming what you need tobe aware of when you go around

(16:30):
the corner and also what gearyou need to be in and how how
much leaned over you need to beto get around the corner at a
good speed and keep the pace upand it was it was really really
fun

SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
yeah thanks for that and choosing the gears and being
in the right gears can be poorlyillustrated in the videos that I
posted on social media becauseI'm not used to a 450 and I'm
not used to oxygen starvedengine and it was a nightmare
but we got it done and it wasflat out all the time just to
get moving and I think yourshifting and your gear selection

(17:01):
was probably a lot smoother thanmine was

SPEAKER_07 (17:03):
yeah I mean we found out I found out pretty quickly
like second gear was the keyright if you went rounded and
you were trying to climb up ahill around a hairpin in third
gear with a single-cylinder 450,there was times when it would
stutter a bit, and that wouldreally throw your balance off.
So second gear, high revs, goodcontrol, and then you can really

(17:23):
burn it out of the cornernicely.
It was great fun.

SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Yeah, thanks for that.
And we're outside of the hotelhaving a couple of beers, and
you can hear the motorbikescoming back from the repair
shop.
And with that, I'm going to handit back to the boss of the show,
Taylor.

SPEAKER_02 (17:36):
Gentlemen, thank you very much.
I do appreciate that.
closed the road section I wantto say that we came around one
of the things that was mostmemorable for me riding
yesterday we came around we wereon what was seemed to be freshly
laid beautiful blacktop and thenwe were on a dirt road single
lane traffic backed up bothdirections there was dust
everywhere and if you look downyou can recognize that three

(18:00):
meters below where we were aboutten feet below where we actually
were on this new dirt road wasprobably the old road and if you
looked up the hill there wasthis massive washout.
And if you look down the hill,you realize that there was the
rest of the road gone.
So this amazing two-lane ribbonwas gone.

SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Yeah.
Tune in next week or the nextepisode, and we'll have a deep
dive into all of this.

SPEAKER_02 (18:22):
Yeah.
So we'll close that section.
Gentlemen, thank you very muchfor being part of this and
sharing your input.
That was really nice to hearthat.
Thank you so much.
As promised at the top, we wouldhave an interview with Jeremy.
And it's extremely relevant tothis particular segment of what
we're doing in this particulartrip, because his book does Lost
to Darkness is about riding in aMuslim country, and indeed, that

(18:44):
is what we are doing.
And with that, let's roll the

SPEAKER_03 (18:58):
interview.
I got a garbage job.
I'm a garbage man.
I've been driving this truck solong it's all I can stand.
In my head a song, on my face afrown I'm getting kinda sick and
tired of cleaning up this townWhen the office checked in, to

(19:23):
ask how we are One day I toldthem how I felt, they sent me to
HR Now when they ask, to avoidthe strife I smile and I say I'm
having the best day my life.
The best day of my life.

(19:44):
This job is alright.
If you let me never go home andkeep working all night.
Tell the office no.
Don't you have any fears?
It's only because I'm happy thatyou see my tears.
A promotion came up.

(20:05):
I put my hat in the ring.
I was the only I'm the only onewho applied who knew a garbage
thing Ten years on this job Isweat and I bleed They took the
greenest hat on the crew Andthey made them team lead Now
that cut in two My brain like aknife But when they check on me

(20:31):
I'm having the best day of mylife The best day of my life
This job is alright If they letme I'd never go home I'd keep
working all night In Sisypheanjobs Depression is rife But not

(20:53):
over here I'm having the bestday of my life guitar solo If I

(21:18):
could see myself when I wasyoung, I'd say try to worry less
and try to have more fun.
Forgive yourself.
Avoid my ex-wife.
And at work, always say I'mhaving the best day of my life.

(21:39):
The best day of my life.
This job is not

SPEAKER_06 (21:45):
right.
If they let me, I'd never gohome and keep working all night.
I tell the office, no.

SPEAKER_03 (21:52):
Don't you have any fears?
It's only because I'm happy thatyou see my tears.
It's just a fee and jobsDepression is right But now I'm
right here Having the best dayof my life

SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
Jeremy Craker, welcome to the podcast.
Oh, thanks for having me.
I know you're in Alberta, Canadatoday, but did you grow up in
Alberta?

SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
Well, I grew up in Manitoba for the first eight
years and then Saskatchewan forthe, you know, the remainder of
my formative years.
And then I'm in Alberta now, butI've only been in Alberta since
about 1999 and I'm 52 now.

SPEAKER_01 (22:46):
And I just finished reading your book Through Dust
and Darkness.
And that is a motorcycle journeyfrom Alberta all the way in to
the Middle East, but you startoff the book by describing your
childhood and you mentioned yourfamily were Mennonites, but I
don't know what a Mennonite is.
Perhaps you can tell us what aMennonite is.

SPEAKER_03 (23:04):
Well, yeah, I'm not a religious scholar or an expert
in this, but a Mennonite isbasically one of the Anabaptist.
It's of the Anabaptist theologyand it was founded by Menno
Simons, I think in the 1500s.
He was excommunicated by theCatholic Church and went on to

(23:25):
form a new Protestant kind ofbranch of theology.
And anybody who subscribes tothat theology is a Mennonite.
But it is a little bit like, Ihesitate to say this, but I'm
going to say it anyway.
It's a little bit like beingJewish in that you can be Jewish
without being religious.

(23:45):
So same, same with theMennonites.
If you attend a Mennonite churchand you subscribe to their
theology, you are a Mennonite.
But if you're born like to along heritage of Mennonite
people, then you can be aMennonite, even though you may
be an atheist.

SPEAKER_01 (24:00):
Through dust and darkness is quite a motorcycle
journey.
What was your introduction tomotorcycles?

SPEAKER_03 (24:05):
I was trying to think about this.
I don't entirely know, but Imust have been between the ages
of 10 and 13, somewhere inthere.
So 10, 11, 12, 13.
My dad bought me a little SuzukiDS80.
It was a two-stroke, yellow andblue, and I just ripped all all
over the Saskatchewan prairieson that thing.

SPEAKER_01 (24:26):
That's fantastic.
And it sounds like theappropriate motorcycle for a kid
to learn how to ride.

SPEAKER_03 (24:30):
Yeah, he got me the appropriate bike.
Although when he bought it, hedid ask the dealer, like, how
big of a kid can ride thisthing?
And he said, Well, you know,your son's about the right size.
And he's like, Yeah, but how bigof a kid can ride it?
And he goes, Oh, yeah, I guessyou could ride it too.
So my dad did rip around withhis knees up like against his
chest on that little dirt biketoo.

(24:51):
So and, and I have a youngerbrother.
So all three of us were, youknow, making use of that
machine.
Although I wrote it the most byfar.

SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
I bet your father never thought that buying a
little motorcycle to rip aroundthe farm would turn into a
journey such as this and turninto a fantastic book that you
wrote.
But before you left on thisjourney, I remember reading
something about some volunteerwork you did in Bosnia.
Maybe you can tell us aboutthat.

SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
Oh, yeah, that was in 1995, the winter.
So it was December, January.
So I can't remember if it waslike late 95 or early 96 my
dates are a little bit wrong butit was just after the Balkan War
had kind of you know died downto a murmur there was still some

(25:37):
well there was a heavy UNpresence in the country in
Croatia and I went there tovolunteer at this kind of
refugee center it was kind of arefugee getaway camp if you can
imagine that so it was in abeautiful part of Croatia and
they would take people peoplethat had been in parts of the

(25:57):
Balkans that had been absolutelydevastated and they would take
them out of that rubble and outof that ruin and they would take
them to the center for basicallya little reprieve and they could
have like child care taken careof they could have proper meals
and you know a little bit ofreprieve the sad part is that it
wasn't a permit Center so aftera certain period of time they

(26:22):
would go back to their homes orwhat was left of them.
So I wasn't exactly rebuildinghomes, but I did a little bit of
construction work in Mostar.
And, you know, it was just acity of ruins and rubble when I
was there.

SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
Surely your efforts made an impact on the people you
were there to help.
And all of these lifeexperiences help us prepare for
big motorcycle trips.
How old were you when you lefton this Middle Eastern trip?

SPEAKER_03 (26:50):
I think I set off, well, it was 2007 and I'm 52
now.
So again, I guess it was 34,something like that.
And I was gone for a year, so Iguess I must have turned the age
of 35 somewhere, somewhere inthe Middle

SPEAKER_01 (27:03):
East.
And when you finally left onthis motorcycle trip, you chose
a KLR 650, the donkey tractor ofmotorcycles.
How did you come to theconclusion that this was the
right weapon of choice?

SPEAKER_03 (27:16):
Oh, well, this all stems from a conversation that I
had with a friend of mine in1995.
We were in Austria.
I spent all summer there.
at a kind of a mountaineeringschool and we were learning to
climb and rappel and cave andall that kind of stuff and then
this friend of mine he suggestedthat when we got back to Canada

(27:36):
we should buy KLR 650motorcycles and ride to
Argentina and you know I waswhat was at the time 22
something like this and Ithought that sounds great except
I can't afford that but it doessound like a great idea and from
that one conversation I now gotover the thought that I needed
to buy a KLR 650 in order toride around the world and you

(28:00):
know 1995 I remember this waskind of before the internet or
very early days like I don'tthink I had an email address at
that time yet no I didn't so Icouldn't do any research like
what is the proper motorcycle totake around the world my friend
said a KLR 650 and I went okayand so I've just been purchasing
KLR 650s ever since and Ifinally did take the KLR to

(28:25):
Panama and back.
And that was my trip in 2003that became my first book,
Motorcycle Therapy.

SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
I think we've all had a friend talk us into buying
a KLR and we're all better offfor it.
In fact, my friend Brian talkedme into getting a KLR once.
I had a first generation and itwas fantastic.
We did the backcountry discoveryroute, I think the Washington
route, and it was the perfectmachine for that.
They're pretty muchindestructible.

SPEAKER_03 (28:51):
Yeah, you almost can't destroy them But, you
know, you can I've done it, butit takes a lot of

SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
effort.
And they're great value formoney, that's for sure.
And your trip starts in Canada,but you shipped your motorcycle
over to Germany.
How did you come to theconclusion that starting in
Germany was the right move foryou?

SPEAKER_03 (29:10):
Well, again, I'm not much for research, to be honest.
So I poked around a little bitand I tried to find a shipping
company that would take a KLRfrom Calgary.
You know, I didn't want to haveto drive to Vancouver first or I
didn't want to have to go fromFlorida.
Those are two kind of commonshipping points.
So that limited my options.
And I found this one company.

(29:31):
I forget the name of it now, butI don't think it matters because
they no longer exist.
Anyway, they shipped right fromCalgary, right to Frankfurt,
Germany.
And it only cost me fourteenhundred Canadian dollars with
the motorcycle and myself to goone way.
So I actually flew on the sameplane as my bike and the process

(29:52):
could not have been smoother.
It was so good.

SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
I recently had the same experience.
I flew my GSA from Great Britainto Vancouver.
And we use a company called MotoFreight.
And that bike was shipped on thesame airplane that I was on.
And the Canadians had no issuewith a foreign plated bike
because the bike is registeredin the state of Washington.

(30:15):
And I just went over to thecustoms area.
I didn't have to pay any dutiesor fees.
I uncrated my motorcycle.
And I was off.
It was a fantastic experience.

SPEAKER_03 (30:26):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm hoping that, uh, somy partner and I are now
planning on another big trip.
We, we, I don't know if we talkabout this later or whatnot, but
we did, uh, spend a yeartraveling from Calgary to, uh,
Argentina and back, uh, just acouple of years ago.
And then on the way back, we gotstuck because of COVID and that
was a whole big ordeal.
But next we're hoping to, to,uh, ship to Europe and, uh, do

(30:48):
another adventure, you know,next summer.

SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
I'm also shipping my bike back to Europe after our in
October.
I'm shipping at Seafreight outof LA and it's heading over to
London Heathrow again with Kathyat Motofreight.
And it's going to cost verylittle.
I think it's less than$2,000,especially now with the higher
prices, it's still veryaffordable.

(31:11):
And I'll probably just leave itthere for a couple of years.
But speaking of Europe andspeaking of your book, your
opening paragraph of your actualjourney starts in Istanbul.
And I think the mindset of isthat our Middle Eastern or our
far-flung journeys based out ofEurope starts in Istanbul.

(31:32):
But you said that in your mind,your journey didn't really start
until Syria.
And why is that?

SPEAKER_03 (31:39):
Well, there again, I had been trying to get to Iran
and the greater Middle East, andI had been to the Middle East
before.
I was there in 2001, like rightafter the terror attacks of
9-11.
was there and so I had seenEgypt and a few other

(31:59):
neighboring countries and I'dseen like what they you know
what the busy crazy markets wereand when I was in Turkey it
still did feel like it had onefoot in Europe and one foot in
the Middle East and you know theGrand Bazaar in Istanbul it's
it's awesome it's something tobehold but it lacked a certain
grit a certain authenticity youknow it was definitely very

(32:22):
friendly to tourists whereas insome of these more far-flung
destinations in the Middle East,there's nothing for tourists and
they stare at you and look atyou weird and you get some more
authentic experience, I think,in those situations.
So I guess that's why I reallyfelt like the Middle East
started when I got to Syria.

SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
And specifically for those reasons, that's why Turkey
and Istanbul and even Moroccoare sometimes seen as the
gateway into the Middle East.
And you really get a sense of ofcrossing over into a special
place.
And when you left Turkey and youcrossed the Bosporus, you had

(33:02):
fantastic travel advice.
Did you ever get a ticket forjumping the toll gate?

SPEAKER_03 (33:06):
No, no.
Yeah, the owner of the hostel,he was like, all right.
So I was getting directions howto get from point A to point B,
leaving the city.
He's like, all right, are youever coming back to Istanbul
again?
And I'm like, like, I mean,ever, he said.
I'm like, I don't think so.
I was like, okay, then take thefar left lane or whatever it

(33:26):
was, the specific lane that hesuggested and just keep going
and don't stop.
And I didn't realize what thesedirections meant, but what he
was advising me to do was blowthrough all the toll booths and
all these alarm bells went offand flashing lights and sirens,
but nobody chased me.
So I just kept rolling, but youknow, but then I did end up back

(33:47):
in Istanbul.
So, uh, you know, I could havebeen ticketed, I suppose, but I
never was.

SPEAKER_01 (33:52):
Nothing worse.
And always looking in yourmirror in case the cops are
following you and you're alwayswondering if they're going to
catch you.
Yeah, right.
One of the great reasons fortraveling on a motorcycle is I
find people want to interactwith you a little bit more for
some reason.
And I remember a character fromyour book.
He was a Japanese reporter.
He gave you some really greattravel advice.

(34:15):
Do you remember what that was?

SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
Yeah, I think he said, you know, he was looking
at me and my friend that I justmet at the hostel and we were
she was hitchhiking around andtaking public transit and i was
on my motorcycle and uh helooked at us and he kind of
sighed you know this heavy sighand he was like you can only
have two of three things moneystatus or freedom and then he

(34:39):
said you two have freedom and hesaid it very wistfully and like
he did not he was just abusinessman he was a
hard-charging journalist he hadmoney he had status um but you
know he paid the price for itand we had our freedom but i
didn't didn't have money orstatus either so I maybe I don't
know I got the bad end of thatdeal well one out of two ain't

(34:59):
bad yeah I guess you could havea maximum of two things I had at
the time one thing

SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
yeah and speaking of money we all need money to go on
an adventure like this and inthis book you describe how you
travel and you travel quitefrugally and sometimes quite
rough I remember one scene whereyou camp next to your motorcycle
under a tarp on the side of theroad are you still traveling
that in that same fashion orhave you L elevated your travel
experience a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 (35:25):
Well, a little, you know, a little of both.
I still do travel very frugally.
And with my partner now, ElleWest, we travel together and she
is she makes me look like aspoiled prince.
So she is willing and able tocut costs and she will do so
under all circumstances.
So I'm generally the one saying,you know, there's two of us.

(35:49):
If we got a cheap hotel roomtonight, it would be kind of the
same.
as if we got a camp spot.
And sometimes I can convinceher, but sometimes we still
sleep under a tarp next to ourmotorcycles.

SPEAKER_01 (36:02):
Wow, that's a little shocking.
In this house, it's the completeopposite.
My wife is not roughing it andI'm inclined not to rough it
anymore.
That's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 (36:09):
Oh, no.
Well, so another example, thisisn't really to save money, but
we were caught in a wickedwindstorm in Argentina, me and
Elle.
This was in 2019 on our waysouth and the wind was brutal
and we were on loose like roundriver rock roads.
And Elle crashed her bike andthen she crashed it again.

(36:29):
And then I picked it up and Icrashed it.
And so she was like, you knowwhat?
I'm done.
Let's sleep here.
So in the middle of this wind,and it's hard to exaggerate the
intensity of this wind inPatagonia.
I set up the tent right thereand we used the motorcycles
themselves to anchor the cornersdown, like with the kickstands

(36:50):
and rocks and things.
And we just collapsed at theside of the road and kind of
slept until, you know, fouro'clock in the morning.
And I think we were awakened bysilence, like the wind stopped
or at least settled down.
And that's when we were able tolike pack up our things as fast
as we could and and hit the roadagain before we had to encounter

(37:12):
that wind on that road.
So that was Elle's suggestion tonot to be frugal, but that was
her saying it's camping time.

SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
Those winds in that area are quite famous and they
are relentless That's for sure.
In your book, you said that, andI love the quote, you said that
life is fairly pointless, so whynot go on a fairly pointless
journey?
Do you still hold that opinion?

SPEAKER_03 (37:33):
Well, I can't remember that part that I wrote
that, but I'll take your wordfor it.
You were a fresh pair of eyes onit.
I am just reading Hitchhiker'sGuide to the Galaxy.
So yes, that is, and I've readit before, but that is
definitely reinforcing theopinion that life is pointless.
So you may as well do theoccasional pointless thing.

SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
The most anticlimactic conclusion to a
book ever, and I'm not going toruin it for you.

SPEAKER_03 (37:57):
Oh, no, I've read the book before.
I'm just going through it again.
It felt like it was the righttime.

SPEAKER_01 (38:01):
And speaking of great books, you mentioned Zen
and the art in your book.
And did you apply any lessonsfrom Robert's book to your
journey?

SPEAKER_03 (38:12):
Well, you know what, I read that book, and I've read
it twice now.
And I still can't say that Ireally understand it.
A lot of it is Easternphilosophy and things like this.
But Robert person he keepscoming back to this idea of
quality and if something's worthdoing you know it's worth doing
well uh so that's a lesson thati aspire to even though i still

(38:33):
cut corners and um you know iwas a ice road truck driver this
winter and one of the drivers hesaid the lazy man works the
hardest so i remember that asmuch as i remember zan and the
art of motorcycle maintenance sosometimes it's worth taking a
step back and uh you know beingthoughtful more than in a hurry

(38:54):
or a rush to fix something.

SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Being deliberate and patient and thoughtful on the
side of a highway or in themiddle of the desert when you're
trying to fix your motorcyclecan sometimes be a little
trying.
But yeah, that's definitelyfantastic advice.
And I know you had a lot oftrouble fixing tires.
Have you gotten better at thisskill set?

SPEAKER_03 (39:14):
Well, they would almost have to, wouldn't they?
You've read the book.
So yeah, I'm definitely not agreat mechanic.
But yes, the the skills haveimproved.
Me and Elle got a bunch ofpractice with that because I
think I had five flat tires,mostly in Peru in 2019 on our
way South.
And, um, you know, I made avideo about that and just

(39:35):
struggling at the roadside, uh,with a ridiculous tire.
I won't mention the brand name,but, um, they're notoriously
stiff to, you know, pull off andput on.
And we had one of those on theback of my KLR.
And, um, yeah, if we could justnot get that thing on, it was
ridiculous but i now have abrand new toolkit um this

(39:56):
company out of austria saw mywebsite or saw my my youtube
channel uh they're called royalemoto and they sent me this
toolkit for the honda crf 300which is the bike that i have
now and in it they've got allthe things that i need to fix
the you know the tire with muchgreater efficiency i think i'm
gonna do some practicing beforei hit the road um you know the

(40:19):
next time

SPEAKER_01 (40:20):
yeah that's some great advice i think all of us
uh should do a bit ofpracticing.
Unfortunately, there's neverenough time, is there?
And flat tires never seem tohappen in the most convenient of
locations, do they?

SPEAKER_03 (40:30):
No, they sure don't.
Yeah.
At the edge of actually at theedge of Quito, I had another
flat tire.
And finally, we pulled over tothis gas station.
We couldn't find accommodationfor the night.
So, you know, I actually took mywheel off, but I've used my last
tube.
And when I pulled out the innertube, it was like slashed.

(40:52):
There was no way you could patchSo I actually sent Elle into
Quito, you know, with my wheeland she left to find a repair
shop.
Only then did I kind of reallythink that that was not a good
idea because we had no way ofcommunicating with each other.
We didn't have cell phones thatworked in that country yet.
And if something happened toher, like she got into an

(41:13):
accident or something, I wouldbe stranded at that gas station
for an indeterminate amount oftime.
But, you know, it worked out.
She got back with the tire andwe put it back and it was all
good but that was a risk thatwas a foolhardy risk

SPEAKER_01 (41:27):
hindsight is always 2020 but the more people i talk
to on this podcast the more ifeel comfortable coming to the
conclusion especially formotorcyclists that the world
generally is a pretty good placeand the good stories far
outweigh the bad stories in facti very rarely hear a bad story

SPEAKER_03 (41:46):
yeah well i mean here's hoping but you know
things work out until they don'tum but generally speaking things
will be you know, things will befine.

SPEAKER_01 (41:54):
Speaking of personal safety, I think in one of your
chapters, you were in Lebanon.

SPEAKER_03 (42:00):
Beirut in Lebanon.

SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
For an election and people were talking about
fleeing the country and therewas a, you know, sense of doom
and gloom.
This is in stark contrast to anelection, let's say in Canada or
the US.
What was your chief takeawayfrom that experience?

SPEAKER_03 (42:16):
Well, several takeaways.
One, we have it good here inCanada.
And, you know, we've got, youknow, fair and reasonable
election system.
And it's peaceful.
And that's what I appreciateabout this country.
One of the many things Iappreciate about Canada and
other parts of the world are notso blessed.
Now, the electoral system inLebanon is bananas because of

(42:42):
the way that the colonialistskind of left it when they made
their exit.
So it's not majority rules.
There's within the branches ofgovernment and one of the
leaders had recently beenassassinated and Hezbollah was
blocking the election of thenext leader from that you know

(43:03):
community and it was just crazyand there was a lot of people
fleeing Lebanon because they hadseen Civil War you know in the
80s it was um it was a horribleplace to be and I think a lot of
them were thinking that we wereheading right back for that and
me and my fellow travelers wewere seeing this and we were
witnessing like the tension andthe heightened sense of danger.

(43:28):
But we were almost just kind ofobserving it like we were
watching it through the lens ofa camera or something.
It didn't feel real to us, butit sure felt real to some of the
local population.

SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
I think your analysis of that was great in
your book.
And you had another reallypowerful experience in a refugee
camp called Shatila.
And I encourage everyone to readthat in your book.
And unfortunately, history issimply repeating itself over and
over again in the region.
And we will leave thatconversation for people that are

(43:59):
smarter than me anyways.
But on a lighter note, you had afantastic local experience,
something, an experience that Idefinitely wouldn't have dove
into.
But you went to the local men'sbathhouse and this was a
fascinating experience.

SPEAKER_03 (44:13):
Well, yeah, I didn't know what I was getting into.
I just went to this bathhousebecause it was listed, I think,
in one of the guidebooks assomething you have to
experience.
And I was like, oh, okay, I'llexperience what I have to
experience.
And I thought it was going to bekind of like a day spa for men.
You know, it's segregated.
In fact, some of them don't evenallow women in at all.

(44:34):
And I think this may have beenone of those ones.
Or maybe they have a special dayor two for women and not men.
I can't remember the details.
But yeah, you go in and yousurrender your clothing and you
surrender a little bit of money.
And you're given this thin toweland these like wooden shoes
that, you know do their best toslip slide your masculinity

(44:56):
right up from underneath you andyou're ushered into these marble
floors where you can't seeanything really there's steam
everywhere and men lying aroundsome of them scrubbing each
other down I didn't see any likeinappropriate touching but it
was definitely very affectionateand one of the rules in fact was

(45:16):
that you had to keep your towelon at all times but those towels
don't leave anything to theimagination so I can't imagine
why and yeah you just go fromone room to another and you try
to observe like the customs whatpeople are doing there's
stations and one of the stationsis a massage and so I went in

(45:38):
and laid down and it was unlikeany massage you ever had before
including like cracking my neckand cracking my back and like
slapping me around and stufflike this and then after the
massage yeah then they sent meto this room I don't even know
how to describe it it was asmall small room with a
bear-like man you know coveredin hair and a big burly dude and

(46:00):
he didn't speak much English andI didn't speak much Arabic but I
was made to understand that Iwas supposed to lie down on the
marble floor which was hotbecause it was a steam room
anyway and he just proceeded toscrub the living daylights out
of me with this abrasive I don'tknow what it was it felt like a
scotch-brite pad and he let metell you I don't want to go into

(46:22):
too detail here to like scarethe listener but there was not a
nook or cranny in my body thatwas not scrubbed raw by this man

SPEAKER_01 (46:31):
I will take a pass a hard pass on the burly abrasive
man and I will I will skip therecommendation I

SPEAKER_03 (46:38):
recommend it I recommend it you should
definitely go yeah

SPEAKER_01 (46:42):
you're one of your goals in the book was to go to
Iran and everyone thinks ofCanada as almost you know
Switzerland but there was somefor fraught diplomacy between
Canada and Iran at the time.
How did you finally get yourvisa to complete your journey
into Iran?

SPEAKER_03 (47:01):
Well, OK, so actually Canada and Iran have a
very fraught history.
And it's actually even when Iwent, it was more difficult for
a Canadian to get in than it wasfor an American.
You know, it stems from somepolitical situation with a
Canadian Iranian citizen back inthe day.
She went to even prison fortaking photographs and she was

(47:22):
brutally murdered there.
And the Canadian governmentsaid, you don't do that to one
of our citizens.
And the Iranians went, whatcitizen?
You know, she's ours.
And also she died by accidentand all this kind of stuff.
So yeah, Canadian and Iranianpolitical relationships have
been very difficult to say theleast.
Zahra Kazemi.

(47:42):
There it is.
I believe it's Zahra Kazemi.
So how did I get my visa?
I used a service.
So first I said, before I evenwent, I tried directly to go
through the Iranian embassy,which was still functioning in
Ottawa.
So I sent my passport there andit stayed there for weeks and
weeks and weeks.
And my departure date wascoming.

(48:03):
And I contacted the Canadianconsulate and they said, well,
we can get your passport backfor you, but that means you
definitely won't get a visa.
And so I said, okay, do that.
They got my passport back forme.
And then I hired a visa serviceand they gave me all kinds of
assurances that you yes, yourvisa will be in and you can pick

(48:24):
it up in Istanbul and blah,blah, blah.
And to make a long story short,that didn't happen.
So I ended up abandoning theidea of going to Iran and just
started motorcycling around therest of the Middle East.
And then finally they said, ohyeah, your visa's here.
But I had already left the area.
So I was now in Syria.
No, I was in Lebanon when I gotthat email.

(48:46):
And then it was a long,difficult journey to get back to
Iran because it was now winterand the mountain mountains were
all choked with snow.
So, you know, it's a long story.
I don't know how much more youwant me to get into it, but

SPEAKER_01 (48:58):
it was a hassle.
It was so much of a hassle thatI think you left your motorcycle
somewhere and you flew into Iranto complete your journey.
And then when you were there,you did something quite brazen.
You basically snuck into areally famous mosque.
Well, yeah, I mean, I

SPEAKER_03 (49:15):
was invited in.
I won't quite say that I snuckin, at I was in Mashhad.
That's it.
It's one of the holy cities inIran.
And one of the reasons people gothere is to visit the holy
shrine of Imam Reza.
And so I was there, but Iunderstood that I was not

(49:36):
allowed to go in because youmust be a Muslim.
So, okay, you can walk around itand you can kind of see it from
the outside.
And it is grand.
It's beautiful.
It's ornate.
It's awe-inspiring, but youcan't go inside.
So I was in an internet cafe.
Remember, this was 2007.
and um you know writing someemails and things like this and

(49:57):
this man approached me he wasdressed all in black he looked
like a devout muslim he didn'tuh yeah he looked like a devout
muslim and he said why are youhere and i said i'm sightseeing
and he's like have you seen theshrine yet i'm like well i can't
go and he's like oh you must i'mlike well i can't he's like you
can if you come with me i wentoh okay so we agreed to meet the

(50:19):
next day and uh he i'm going tosay snuck me in, but I was
wearing, you know, it waswinter.
I was wearing a black toque andI was wearing all black and I
had a big beard at the time.
Like I do now, I guess too, butsometimes I don't have a beard.
Anyway, I did then.
And, uh, he walked with me intothe holiest shrine in all of

(50:40):
Iran.
And it was awe inspiring to seethese worshipers there just, um,
you know, circumambulating theshrine and touching it and every
surface that could be touchedlike about you know as high as a
man can reach and i say menbecause they were only men
allowed it was all polishedsmooth from people touching the

(51:02):
wood and the metal andeverything and they would pass
money to each other which theywould insert into the shrine and
it was awe-inspiring like i grewup in a very fundamental
religious home and i was kind oftrying to re-examine that from a
different vantage point sothat's why i was going to iran
And there I found people alsovery fundamentally religious,

(51:27):
but very sincere.
And that's kind of when my ideaof religion began to break down.
And I started a journey toextricate myself from that.
And I'm happy that I did.
But that kind of started there.

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
And you were quite honest about your
self-examination.
And you made some greatobservations while you were
there.
And one of them was that it'sfunny how you will often simply
become the religion in the placethat you live or you're born or
you're most social in.
Yeah.
And is that still your opiniontoday?

SPEAKER_03 (52:00):
Oh, yeah, 100%.
Like, you know, Canada and theUS, right, they're more diverse
than some countries are.
But like, if you're born inEgypt, there's no way that
you're not going to be a Muslim,you could be a Coptic Christian,
or you could be a few of theother outliers that they have
there, but you're going to be aMuslim.
Same if you're born in SaudiArabia, or, you know, you You

(52:22):
could be a Hindu if you're bornin this country or Buddhist if
you're born here.
Some of them are almostmonolithic in their religious
ideology.
Like again, Canada and the USmaybe are exceptions, but you're
more likely to be a Christian ifyou're born in the West than you
are if you're born, say, in, youknow, well, if you're born in

(52:43):
Israel, you'll either be Jewishor you'll be Muslim or if
you're, you know, you know whatI'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 (52:48):
It's an obvious fact that is often conveniently
overlooked when people dive intoa religious discussion.
But while you were there in theMiddle East, you were shocked by
the amount of mosques that yousaw.
And it can't be helped.
You can't avoid the discussion,especially when traveling
through what we will call theold world of the Middle East.

(53:12):
I did some research.
There are 82,000 mosques inTurkey alone, and there are 3.6
million mosques on the planet bybest estimate.
And in the US, there are 360,000houses of worship in the US
alone and millions of Christianchurches on the planet.

(53:35):
Were you taken aback by theamount of mosques that you saw
during your travel?
No, not really.
I kind

SPEAKER_03 (53:42):
of knew what I was getting into.
And I think I say in the booktoo, that like riding through
the Middle East withoutdiscussing religion is like
sailing around the world withouttalking about the ocean.
it's just it permeateseverything like even to speak
arabic you have to use religiouslanguage like it's it's steeped
in religion and um yes a lot ofthese mosques uh that you

(54:04):
mentioned you don't really seethem they're just little
doorways and you wouldn't evenknow that there's a mosque
behind there um but the onesthat are grand and uh elaborate
you know from the ottoman empireor earlier they're just gorgeous
and uh there is something

SPEAKER_01 (54:19):
beautiful about the culture i have a lived for a
couple of years in the MiddleEast and in all the modern
cities, it is quite secular andit is quite contemporary and
forward facing.
At the end of your book, it kindof just ends.
And I think readers would liketo know.
Oh, yeah.
What happened to your journeyafter the book ended?

SPEAKER_03 (54:38):
Yeah.
So, I mean, I guess spoileralert.
So if you're going to readThrough Dust and Darkness and
you don't want to be, you know,have the ending ruined for you,
stop listening now or just comeback to it later.
But yeah, the journey ends.
as I'm leaving Syria on my wayinto Egypt.
And that's kind of where thejourney, the story kind of

(54:59):
naturally terminated there.
But after that, I went intoEgypt, tooled around there for a
little bit.
And then I went into Libya andthen Tunisia.
And from Tunisia, I took a ferryto Marseille in France.
And then from France, made myway through the snow into
England.
And then from there, shipped themotorcycle back to Toronto.

(55:22):
So I arrived in Toronto, Canadain March.
I think it was March or April.
Anyway, it was way too early tobe riding a motorcycle across
Canada, but I did.
I landed in Toronto and rodethrough like bad snowy roads all
the way back to Canmore,Alberta.

SPEAKER_01 (55:41):
Wow.
That's quite the cold journeyhome.
Maybe a bit apropos to have tobrave a Canadian snowfall to get
home on your KLR.
That's pretty awesome.
Having accomplished this bigjourney and clearly you've had
many others.
Do you have any advice forpeople who are considering a
journey such as this?

SPEAKER_03 (55:58):
Actually, it's funny you ask.
I'm working on an e-book.
I think it's tentatively titledRide Slow, Have Fun, Advice for
Adventure Motorcycle Beginners.
And I'm just about ready to pushpublish on it, so I don't know
when this podcast comes out.
But it's a little e-book that'skind of full of general advice.
If you want specific advice,you've got to contact Chris

(56:21):
Scott or find his book,Adventure Motorcycling Handbook.
He wrote basically the Bibleabout this, and I'm just writing
a little supplemental thoughtsfrom my own head.
Anyway, so what would I say?
You know, you got to do someplanning.
You got to do some research.
But also you can get trapped inover planning.
And I've seen that happen to alot of people where they just

(56:44):
don't know when to stop theplanning because you'll never
quite be ready.
So I'm not advocating for peopleto just go willy nilly into some
foreign culture without doingany research.
But I'm also saying, you know,try not to overdo it.
You'll never be ready.
You'll never imagine everyscenario that you'll encounter.
You'll just have to like dealwith it when you're on the road.

SPEAKER_01 (57:07):
If folks are interested season three, I think
episode 10, there's a greatexample of someone that I've
called the accidentaladventurer.
And this is a great, you know,young German lady.
She didn't know anything aboutmotorcycle mechanics.
She didn't even know how to fixa tire.
And she is halfway around theworld starting her journey in
Morocco.

(57:28):
You know, can you offer someadvice of where to start, where
not to start a journey likethat?

SPEAKER_03 (57:32):
Yeah, there's a few, there's a few countries you
don't want to select as yourfirst adventure.
Like I would say, don't, don'tgo to Somalia as your first
adventure or, you know, theDemocratic Republic of Congo.
So avoid some hot spots and usesome prudence.
But yeah, if you're if you'rejust going on your first
adventure and you're pickingsome reasonable destinations,

(57:53):
you should be fine.

SPEAKER_01 (57:54):
I think my comments from earlier in the show serve
as great advice for people thatare taking their first
adventure.
If you're based out of Europe,probably Istanbul is a great
gateway.
Morocco is a great gateway intosome adventure travel.
And if you're in North America,obviously Mexico and the Baja
are fantastic places to getstarted.
And it's not too extreme, that'sfor sure.
And then by the end of thosecountries, you will know if

(58:15):
adventure travel is for you.
And surely it is.
Talking about the Middle Eastand finishing that up.
Have you been back since thecompletion of your book?

SPEAKER_03 (58:23):
Yeah, I have.
So I mentioned that I was thereearlier, more than once,
actually, in 2001 was the firsttime.
And then I did that trip thatbecame Through Dust and
Darkness.
And then I went back in 2012.
And I was working as a freejournalist mostly writing
articles for the Toronto Starbased out of Syria so yeah it

(58:46):
was in the very early stages ofSyria's civil war in fact when I
was there no official newsagency that I know of had yet
called it a civil war but I wasthere with a few other
freelancers and we were all kindof looking around at each other
and we're like who's gonna writeit like who's gonna say it's a
civil war cuz that's what it isbut you know I didn't have that

(59:07):
kind of gravitas I was justwriting kind of color pieces man
on the street like what i wasseeing who i was talking to sort
of pieces kind of like uhcharlie wilson's war that sort
of thing um no not charliewilson's war ernie piles war
there it is so yeah i was backin 2012 and uh basically there's
another long story there i didget detained by syrian officials

(59:30):
and held for the better part ofa day while they interrogated me
non-violently but it was stillintense and they called in like
people to cross reference what Iwas saying, including my
landlord and things like that.
And eventually I had to end upfleeing the country.
So I went to Lebanon and stillkept working for a little while
and then running out of money.

(59:51):
I went across Libya again in2012 so that I went while
Gaddafi was still alive in 2008.
And then I went after he hadbeen killed in 2012 and ended up
again in Tunisia and thenbasically back home from there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:07):
Frequent listeners will know that I'm a big fan of
Anthony Bourdain.
And one of his most popularepisodes is when he returned to
Libya and he returned just afterGaddafi was killed.
And it was a really specialtime.
It was a time of celebration,but it was also a time of
change.
What were your observations whenyou went back?

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:28):
Well, it was a celebratory time.
So Gaddafi had just been killedand they didn't then realize
that they were still ahead atlike in for some very tough
times and some more civil war tocome.
Um, so it was very celebratory.
People did feel free.
They were talking, um, aboutpolitics and about their future,

(01:00:49):
uh, all while they were shootingAK 47s in the air and like doing
burnouts with their cars andstuff because they didn't feel
very free.
Um, contrast that with CERT,which was Gaddafi's hometown.
And we stayed in this hotel, meand, um, me and two other
journalists, uh, who weredriving across country in a car
and yeah the hotel had nowindows it was it had been on

(01:01:13):
fire at one point but it was theonly place to stay there were
armed militia men in the lobbyand they reluctantly let us stay
uh but it was very subdued andit was not a hopeful environment
in that community because ithink they realized that um they
can claim that they were youknow with the rebels all along
but everybody knew that if youwere from cert you were aligned

(01:01:35):
with gaddafi and um yeah itended up that just weeks after
we left CERT and got out ofLibya, then rebel forces came
into that community and did awholesale cleanup of, you know,
of whoever was fighting age.
So there was a slaughter there.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:51):
This being 2025, fingers are crossed that Syria
doesn't repeat the history ofLibya and they can find some
freedom without any morebloodshed.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:01):
Well, yeah, I mean, I think Syria, again, is headed
for a long, difficult recovery.
But I do look forward forward tothe day when someone can go
there and travel safely again,because it was one of my
favorite countries that I'veever been to.
And that was like, of course, in2008.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:17):
believe anyone who has been to Syria during its
golden age and anyone who livesthere would like to see them
return to that fantastic time.
Perhaps you can share some ofyour other work with us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:30):
Sure.
It starts with motorcycletherapy.
That's my first book.
It's basically me and my buddywe both got dumped by our
girlfriends at the same time andwe were melodramatic in our 20s
so we just bought motorcyclesand hit the road and on that
trip it turns out that I didn'tget along with him very well
either so that's when I realizedoh okay my girlfriend dumped me

(01:02:53):
and I don't get along with thisguy maybe I'm the problem so
that's the central theme of thatbook and then Through Dust and
Darkness that's my second bookthat's the one that we've been
discussing mostly through theMiddle East and North Africa and
then I wrote two collectionWell, I didn't write them all.
I'm the editor and contributorto Motorcycle Messengers and

(01:03:14):
Motorcycle Messengers 2.
So Motorcycle Messengers is acollection of short stories from
myself and other people thatcame out in 2015.
And then Motorcycle Messengers 2came out in 2019, which was
horrible timing.
The plan was it was going tocome out, then Elle and I were
going to ride to Argentina andback, and then I was going to
hit the motorcycle show circuitand sell all of these thousands

(01:03:37):
of books.
But, you know, on the way backfrom Argentina, of course, all
the borders closed.
We got stuck in Uruguay for fivemonths and we had to have this
crazy misadventure on our wayhome.
And then all of the motorcycleshows were like null and void
and discontinued for the nextseveral years.
So now I still have I still havethousands of copies of
Motorcycle Messengers 2 in mystorage unit.

(01:04:01):
And then more recently, I justput together a collection.
So on this trip to SouthAmerica, I was writing articles
for Mark Richardson, actually.
He was the editor of an onlinemotorcycle magazine that no
longer exists.
And I was writing monthlydispatches for him.
So I just kind of compiledthose, tidied them up a little
bit.

(01:04:21):
And you can buy those onlineright now.
And then there's that advicebook that I referenced, which is
tentatively called Ride Slow,Have Fun, Advice for Adventure
Motorcycle Beginners.
And that will be an e-book form,but it's not out yet.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:36):
And in addition to your writing, I was doing some
research and I ran across yourYouTube music channel.
Perhaps you can share thatjourney with us.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:44):
Yeah, that's a funny story, too.
So, I mean, my dad passed away.
This isn't the funny part, butmy dad passed away, I don't
know, 11 years ago, and he leftbehind two acoustic guitars.
So they came to me and I didn'tknow how to play, but I knew
that, like, I just didn't feelright selling them.
So I learned to play the guitarand I've been doing that for 10

(01:05:07):
years or so.
And along the way, I ended upwriting five original songs that
I then brought to a studio inCalgary.
And at the time, I was workingas a garbage man for the town of
Canmore.
And that meant that I was securein my job and I had some money,
some disposable income.
I don't have kids.

(01:05:28):
So I spent a fair bit of moneyhaving these songs produced and
properly recorded with studiomusicians and the whole bit.
And then one of the songs...
was about being a garbage manbecause i was a garbage man at
the time so i wrote a song aboutthat and then i made a music
video about that and then ipublished that music video on
youtube on my second youtubechannel called jeremy craker

(01:05:51):
music and as soon as i publishedthat music video i got fired
from my job as a garbage man souh yeah i've got an original ep
it's called the best day of mylife by jeremy craker you can
stream it wherever you streammusic or you can find the music
videos for that EP on my secondYouTube channel, Jeremy Craker

(01:06:12):
Music.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:13):
And if we haven't played some of your music during
this podcast, I will mostdefinitely put the links down in
the show notes for everyone.
And do you have any plans forthe immediate future?
Any travel plans?
Okay, well,

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:24):
L West, my partner and I, we're off to England
later this month, very actuallycoming up very quickly.
And we're going to be at theOverland event in Oxford,
England.
That's the last weekend ofAugust.
And from there, were flying toPortugal because some friends of
ours found out that we weregoing to Europe this summer and

(01:06:45):
they went, oh, we've got twomotorcycles in Portugal but we
want them to be in Bulgaria.
And we went, oh, okay, we'll dothat.
So we've been assigned this tripto relocate these motorcycles
from Portugal to Bulgaria thissummer.
So that's the most immediatetrip.
And then next year we're hopingto take a year off and travel

(01:07:07):
ship our two Honda CRF 300rallies to Europe and then spend
the summer traveling in Europeand then on into Africa and
details to be determined becausewe're not sure like what's you
know where we're going yet butthat's the general ballpark plan

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:26):
and you plan on publishing this on your YouTube
channel

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:29):
oh yeah my YouTube channel is kind of what I've
spent most of my time withrecently like I do write still
I'm still writing but I'm alsoediting and making videos.
And that's on just my name,Jeremy Craker.
It's a hard name to spell, butonce you learn how to spell it,
you'll never forget it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:46):
And it rhymes with Baker.
That's how I remember it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:49):
Yeah.
It's like it rhymes withbreaker, but it's spelled
K-R-O-E-K-E-R.
So they're all on my YouTubechannel.
Oh, one more thing.
I should mention the obviousone.
If you can't find my booksonline anywhere else, you can
always find them on my website,which is MotorcycleTherapy.com
or JeremyCraker.com.
And there you can find all Allof my books.
And I'm desperately trying toclear out thousands of copies of

(01:08:12):
Motorcycle Messengers 2 justbefore we leave on our trip.
Got to be done.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:16):
And yet another pandemic motorcycle story.
And I wanted to mention that Iwas talking to Mark Richardson
just yesterday, in fact, and hementioned you were at a
motorcycle show with him and youwere selling books three to one
over him.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:29):
Well, well, maybe my books, the motorcycle therapy is
the one that I had at the time,and it was a very thin book.
So it's very a accessible.
And so maybe some of the peoplewho attended that motorcycle
show weren't big readers.
Let's put it that way.
But Mark's book is amazing.
Like you got it.
He's a great writer.
I like him a lot.
Absolutely.
And

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:50):
thank you so much for coming to the podcast and
sharing your stories.
And please keep in touch whenyou drop your next work.
Oh, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:14):
When I was young I shot a hole in the sky With a
pellet gun Out in the fields Anabandoned well It was cold down

(01:09:36):
inside And dark as hell It wascold down inside from in that
well

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:53):
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:53):
just knew that I'd see stars in the sky though the
sky was blue but from the edgeand looking down just bullet
holes in the sky the world wasbrown I just knew Loads of sound

(01:11:27):
of a train hauling wheat andwestward bound.
Just some grain and a runaway.
I hopped that train and I wrotea song that I don't play.

UNKNOWN (01:11:57):
I hopped that train

SPEAKER_04 (01:12:02):
One deep breath and I'm gone Yeah this place is just

(01:12:27):
a place for moving on One deepbreath and I'm gone Yeah this
place is just a place for movingon

SPEAKER_06 (01:12:33):
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(01:12:54):
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If you'd like to send us aquestion or Or if you are a
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(01:13:17):
Thanks for listening, andremember, don't be an ADV
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UNKNOWN (01:13:29):
Weenie.