November 7, 2024 • 33 mins
Join Attorney Bob Mannor and aging care expert Dr. Corinne Auman for an insightful conversation on Advice From Your Advocates. Dr. Auman discusses her book Keenagers and shares how her personal experiences shaped her approach to aging care management. Together, they explore the challenges families face during senior healthcare crises, the impact of cultural narratives on aging, and the essential role of care navigators. Learn how positive perspectives on aging can drive better retirement planning and why ageism needs to be actively challenged. This episode offers practical advice for families, caregivers, and individuals wanting to prepare for the future and navigate the complexities of elder care.
Host: Attorney Bob Mannor
Guest: Corinne Auman, PH.D
Executive Producer: Savannah Meksto
Assistant Producer: Samantha Noah
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ABOUT US:
Mannor Law Group helps clients in all matters of estate planning and elder law including special needs planning, veterans’ benefits, Medicaid planning, estate administration, and more. We offer guidance through all stages of life.
We also help families dealing with dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and other illnesses that cause memory loss. We take a comprehensive, holistic approach, called Life Care Planning. LEARN MORE...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Advice from your Advocates.
I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a certified elder lawattorney in Michigan and I'm
really excited about today'spodcast.
I think you're going to findthis really interesting and fun.
So we have Dr Corinne Ahman ofChoice Care Navigators.
Welcome Corinne.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So tell us a little bit about yourself.
I know you have a variety ofexperience and credentials, but
just tell us a little about whoyou are and how you got started
in Choice Care Navigators.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh sure.
So Choice Care Navigators is ageriatric care management agency
, also called Aging Life Care.
That's our professionalorganization and what we do is
help families navigate thesenior health care industry.
So typically people call uswhen there's some sort of crisis
.
You know everything was fineuntil, and you know some sort of
(00:51):
event has happened and now theyneed to figure out everything
there is to know about seniorcare that they yesterday they
didn't think they needed to knowand today they need to know
everything.
And so we're the people youcall to help you figure all
those things out in that momentof crisis.
But I do love it when peoplecall me way ahead of time
(01:12):
because they're planning andthey're thinking and they're
getting ready for these olderadult years.
But that I'd say I get.
Of 10 phone calls, maybe half aphone call is one of those.
Most of them are the crisissort of thing, and so that's
what I do for my day job.
And then I also am an advocatefor changing how we think about
(01:41):
aging, kind of reframing ourviews on aging, because one of
the things I think keeps peoplefrom planning for their older
adult years calling an attorney,getting their paperwork in
order, doing the planning, doingthe talking is just this really
negative story we have aroundaging and all the fear mongering
(02:02):
we do around aging just kind ofin our cultural narrative that
makes people deny it rather thanbase it, and I think there's so
much empowerment and a positivestory around aging and there is
a lot to look forward to.
It is not all doom and gloom,and so if we can focus on those
(02:24):
things, it actually helps usplan and prepare to make it the
best experience it can be.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Now, where are you geographically and what families
that would like to interactwith you?
Do they need to be in a certainarea geographically?
I know that you have.
We're going to talk about yourbook and the cause that you're
promoting here, but from yourday job are you mostly working
with folks that are right aroundyour geographic area.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, so I'm in North Carolina and I'm right in the
center of the state, nearGreensboro, north Carolina, and
so that's where you wouldinteract with me specifically
for my day job.
But there are people like meall over the country and our
professional organization, agingLife Care you can go to their
website, aginglifecareorg, andthere is a search feature that
(03:16):
you can search by zip code forpeople just like me all across
the United States.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's great, out of curiosity.
So you use terms that we useand so there are a small, very
small group of lawyers that do asimilar thing and we
incorporate sort of the legaland financial planning as part
of that care navigation, as partof that life care planning, and
so you use similar language.
Have you ever encounteredlawyers like that or worked with
(03:45):
lawyers in a situation whereyou know we can kind of
collaborate together?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh, absolutely yeah, Because if people are really
planning for those years, theyneed to be thinking about, okay,
where, if I were to need care,am I going to stay at home?
What does that cost?
How do I budget for that?
What are my options Like, whatkinds of things can I do at home
?
What kinds of things housemodifications or other things
(04:11):
how do we budget for those?
Do we go ahead and do that?
If I'm going to be in afacility, what do the facilities
cost?
How do I plan appropriately forthat?
What kind of paperwork do Ineed to have done?
Because if you're going to moveinto a facility, they want to
see that you've done ahealthcare power of attorney and
all of that sort of legal stuffthat the attorney is going to
(04:31):
be helping you with.
And then if people are thinkingthat they're going to do like
financial planning and they'regoing to try to protect their
assets so that they mightqualify for Medicaid in the
future, that's okay.
But one of the discussions Iwant to have with them is let's
talk about how that changes youroptions for care when you
(04:52):
actually get to that stage.
Because if you say to me I'mgoing to pay privately for my
care.
You know your options are wideopen in terms of where you might
go.
But if you say I'm going to useMedicaid, that actually narrows
your options quite a bit and wewant to talk about you know the
facilities that will acceptthat form of payment versus if
(05:15):
you're private pay, because itreally does change the outlook
for the care that you're goingto get and if that's what you
want to do, that's your decision.
But I think it's very importantto go into that with open eyes
about you know who's going toaccept that payment and who's
not.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Absolutely, and I agree with you on that.
So, as you know, that variesfrom state to state what
programs are going to cover, andso there's a lot of lawyers, so
there's sort of three sort oflevels of lawyers that do this
type of thing.
So there's a lot of lawyers, sothere's sort of three sort of
levels of lawyers that do thistype of thing.
So there's a lot of lawyersthat do help people with those
government benefits, includingveterans benefits, which is a
(05:52):
lot more flexible than Medicaidoften.
But then there's a group ofattorneys that don't really
actually get involved inapplying for benefits, but
they're telling people inadvance oh, you should plan for
these things.
They won't be there for youwhen you decide to apply for
those benefits.
They're just trying to tell youyears in advance that you
should protect your assets.
(06:13):
And that's where I think yourconversation is very relevant
for folks that they think, okay,well, my lawyer said that I've
done a plan that can help me getmedicaid.
Well, do you know what thatmeans?
What will that get you?
And I think that's a veryimportant conversation.
The third level is what we doand, like I said, there's a
small group of us that do this,where, not only are we
incorporating the governmentbenefits and those types of
(06:35):
things in the legal planning andmaking sure that we have all
the permissions and documents inplace, we are actively involved
in care advocacy, and so that'sa really important part of it
to see that.
Okay, we're not a lot of myclients I've seen me about this
come in a crisis situation, likeyou said, but a lot of our
(06:56):
folks are coming in and we'renot looking at Medicaid.
We might be looking at it as afuture plan, but we're looking
at it from a standpoint ofmaking good decisions,
leveraging the money that wehave, making sure that the
family understands the landscapeof what's out there and making
sure they can get the best carethat they can get for their
family members, whether it be intheir home or outside of their
(07:18):
home Absolutely so.
I know we're going to get toyour book in just a second, but
I'd like to.
I'm really curious about howyou got into this area and what
you know.
What brought this passion toyou?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Sure.
So my personal story, I think,is a lot like a lot of people
who are in the senior care world, in that I had grandparents who
I adored and I happened to liveright next door to them growing
up and we went from these aremy mom's parents and we went
(07:53):
from having both grandparentsthere to my grandfather getting
sick and passing away prettyquickly, and when that happened
my mom and her sister went whatfelt like overnight from having
two parents to only having one,and then realizing very quickly
that my grandfather had beenprotecting my grandmother and
hiding coping for her memorydeficits.
(08:17):
So she had dementia and theyrealized very quickly that she
could not be left alone and hehad been taking care of her.
So I watched that happen when Iwas in like eighth grade and
she did not pass away until Iwas a junior in college.
And so I spent my entire highschool and college years
(08:37):
watching my mom and her sistertry to navigate this right, like
having caregivers in the home,having not so great caregivers
in the home, having to put herin a facility, picking the wrong
facility having to switch.
You know, just kind of makingall the decisions with no
guidance and just thinking atthe time.
(08:58):
Why isn't there somebody whohelps you with this, like why?
isn't there somebody you calland they say, okay, here are
your options and here's whatthey cost and here's what you do
and fast forward.
I went on and got my PhD indevelopmental psychology and my
specialty is adulthood and aging, and I went to.
I've been teaching atuniversities in the either the
(09:19):
psychology or the gerontologyprograms and in 2012, I finally
looked at my husband and saidyou know, that business I've
always talked about that.
There ought to be somebody whohelps you navigate these things,
helps you figure them out.
If I'm ever going to start it,it's time to do it, because
things have only gotten morecomplicated since my grandmother
passed away.
(09:39):
And so the short version of thelong story about how I got into
the field in the first place.
So I was obviously alreadyinterested in working with older
adults.
You know, I went and got thatdegree, but it just took me a
while to get up the gumption tosay, ok, I'm actually going to
go start a business.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Very nice.
So let's get into your book alittle bit.
It's kind of a fun title, soit's Keenagers.
Am I saying that, right,keenagers?
Am I saying that, right,keenager?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, with a K yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Keenager telling a new story about aging.
So let's talk about your book.
How did it come about?
And tell us a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, so the book itself is about how older
adulthood today is differentthan what our stereotypes would
have us believe.
It's different than the olderadulthood that your parents or
grandparents might haveexperienced, because we're
living longer, we're livinghealthier.
You're two times more likely toenter your 60s today with no
(10:36):
chronic conditions than peoplewere 100 years ago, and so All
that has changed.
And yet our story about aging,our stereotypes about aging, the
words we use for olderadulthood have not changed.
If you're 60, we call you anolder adult, and if you're 99,
(10:59):
we call you an older adult.
There is no other time periodin life where we would take
people who are over 30 yearsapart in age and say, hey, you
two are basically the same,right, there's just that doesn't
happen.
And so the book is about howthings have changed, trying to
tell a new story, trying to usesome new language.
(11:21):
Right, this word teenageraround aging and a positive word
.
That's the other thing.
If you think about, what aresome positive words about aging?
Yeah it's really difficult.
So I feel like it's reallyimportant to try to reframe that
story, to reshape that storybecause and this comes from my
(11:44):
care management practice toostory because and this comes
from my care management practicetoo I see the difference in the
people who are looking forwardto growing older those calls I
do get about planning and thoseare the people who have a
positive outlook.
They don't have like a, youknow, it's all going to be great
(12:04):
, nothing's ever going to gowrong, they know.
But they're looking forward tothose years and they're thinking
how do I make this the verybest it can be?
What do I need to do?
How do I talk to my familymembers?
You know, what do I need tomake this go as well as it can
possibly go Versus the peoplewho have a really negative
(12:26):
outlook and who are afraid of it.
They just kind of bury theirheads in the sand.
They don't talk about it, theydon't plan for it.
And that is the crisis callthat I get, where people are
like we didn't, we didn't.
We've never discussed this,we've never talked about it.
I don't know what they want.
I don't know how much moneythey have.
I don't know what they want.
I don't know how much moneythey have.
I don't know anything.
(12:47):
So I think the power of apositive aging story, a positive
aging perspective, is that youwill look forward and go what do
I need to do to make this thebest it can possibly be?
And that there are things tolook forward to as we grow older
, because there are.
(13:08):
You talk to any maybe not any,but you talk to most older
adults and they'll tell you allthe pros.
And there's actually researchon happiness.
There's the U-curve.
Of happiness tells us thatpeople are happy when they're
young and they don't have a tonof responsibilities.
We get into midlife and we getstressed out, but people
(13:29):
actually report the highestlevels of happiness in their 60s
, 70s and 80s.
So, there are things to lookforward to that our cultural
narrative around aging wouldtell you would not have you
believe, and that's why I thinkit's really important to change
it.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I love everything that you're saying.
I do a lot of talking to groupsand talking to older folks that
you know I'm getting into thatcategory of older folks myself,
but the idea is one of thethings I often will talk about
just to get people thinking inthis kind of same framework is
that all through our lives we'rekind of planning for different
stages, right.
So when we get out of highschool, that's a huge.
(14:16):
My daughter just graduated highschool last year.
That was a huge transition andthere was a whole lot of
planning around that.
Are we going to go in themilitary?
Are we going to go to college?
Are we going to try to, youknow, find a career?
Are we going to go in themilitary?
Are we going to go to college?
Are we going to try to find acareer?
Are we going to get a trade?
There's just a whole lot ofplanning around that.
Certainly, when you get out ofcollege a whole lot of planning
Everybody thinks about that andeverybody understands that as a
(14:37):
transitionary time and that weneed to plan for it.
When we start thinking aboutmarriage, start thinking about
kids that's obviously somethingthat people plan for years for
sometimes and then, of course,when we start thinking about
retirement.
I'm often brought in as aspeaker to places where they say
, well, these folks are probablythinking about retiring in
about 10 years, so they'replanning 10 years in advance for
(15:00):
that, saying, okay, we'regetting ready to retire, and
then all of a sudden it's like,okay, you retired, now,
everything's perfect andeverything's.
You know, not that everything'sperfect necessarily, but there's
no planning.
Nobody thinks about all thetransitions that are going to
occur between retirement anddeath and I'm not afraid, you
know, I think it's important totalk about death as part of that
too, because that is a thingthat we should not avoid talking
(15:23):
about.
And so I do think it's veryinteresting and I encourage
people and I'll encourage folksto read your book and get more
information from you, because itis something that if more folks
would kind of take that likethey do every other part of
their life, and say, hey, thisrequires some planning to, this
requires some thinking through.
There are going to be sometransitions and some changes,
(15:47):
especially as we get into someof the later stages, and the
later stages could be in your60s, they could be in your 90s,
they could be at any time.
We don't know when that's goingto be, but that requires
additional thought, process andplanning and talking to the
family and things like thatthought process and planning and
(16:07):
talking to the family andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, when Social Security was first enacted in
the 1930s the average Americanlifespan was 67 years.
So you got Social Security at65, and we expected you to be in
quote retirement for a coupleof years.
Today, the average lifespan isaround 77 years.
So we're again, that's back towe're living longer, we're
living healthier and again,that's just the average.
We've got people living intotheir 80s, 90s and beyond you
(16:36):
know, a lot more than we've everhad before.
And so when you think aboutretiring at 65, you're not just
looking at a couple of years,you're looking at decades of
your life still ahead of you,and that it's very typical for
people to retire and then kindof have a honeymoon period where
(16:57):
they're really happy right,because nobody wants to continue
their 40 hour work week.
But then after a couple ofyears you can kind of become
discontented because it's like,well, what am I going to do?
Right, unlimited relaxation isfun for a while, but then it can
kind of become boring.
(17:17):
So what are you going to dowith these decades of your life
socially, emotionally, to giveyou purpose, to make you want to
get out of bed on a Wednesdaymorning?
Sometimes, when I say somethinglike that, somebody will say,
well, what's going to give mepurpose in retirement is sitting
around and doing nothing.
And I get it, because we kindof have this cultural narrative
(17:41):
around retirement that it islike unlimited relaxation, that
you're well-earned rest, and itcan be those things and also be
a time when you find purpose,find meaning in whatever brings
you joy.
You know, maybe it's going backto work, maybe it's starting a
new business, maybe it'svolunteering, maybe it's
(18:01):
caregiving for yourgrandchildren, who knows?
But you will want to findsomething to do, and kind of
planning for that is reallyhelpful.
To say, okay, yeah, I don'thave to work 40 hours a week.
What would I like to do now?
That's going to make me want toget out of bed in the morning.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I want to go back on something that you said a while
back about your grandfather.
When he passed, you guysrealized that he was kind of
covering for your grandmother.
We see that very frequently andit's very interesting,
especially when there's a memoryissue involved.
Families tend to try to hide it, or cocoon within the house to
(18:47):
try to hide it, or cocoon withinthe house, and really you know
that's not good for Grandpabecause now he's not getting the
social interaction andengagement that he needs and
he's having to try to hide this.
But we see it all the time andI think what you're saying is
having these conversations cankind of open that up to say,
look, a lot of almost everybodyyou're going to talk to has that
in their family or they knowsomeone that was suffering from
(19:10):
memory loss, dementia,alzheimer's, you know, and that
this is not a taboo that we haveto hide.
But that is still.
We see this all the time thatthe family comes in.
We see this as we're recordinghere today.
We're coming up to thanksgivingand christmas.
Some of our biggest surges ofpeople calling us is when the
family comes home forThanksgiving, family comes home
(19:31):
for Christmas.
They had no idea until that.
They see it in person that howmuch of a struggle that their
parents are having and thathasn't been talked about or
exposed to them if they're notcoming over or they're not
seeing it, and even sometimes,when they are seeing it, it's
being hidden from them by, youknow, by a loving spouse or
(19:53):
sometimes a loving child, right?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, absolutely no, it's.
The holidays are our biggesttime of the year too November,
december, january in caremanagement.
Because same thing people comehome and they they find out that
things aren't going the waythey thought they were going,
and then we get those same phonecalls.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit more about the book.
I'm really interested in that.
It takes a lot to write a book,and so what was your thought
process, what was your processfor writing that book?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Well, my thought process I'd been talking about
writing a book for five plusyears at least and I finally
decided hey, no, I'm reallygoing to do this.
And I have a great quote up hereon my wall that says writing is
the process by which yourealize you do not understand
what you are talking about.
Because I think I started offthinking I was really going to
(20:46):
write a book about caremanagement right, like planning
and preparing from kind of acare management perspective and
then, as I got into writing it,I was like no, because I think I
go give some of those sametypes of talks you do about
planning and all the things youneed to do to prepare, and I
feel like that not that thereisn't purpose in that, but
(21:08):
sometimes it kind of falls ondeaf ears.
And the reason it falls on deafears is because people are
afraid of it and they don't wantto talk about it because
they're afraid of it.
And so what I really want totalk about is why people
shouldn't be afraid of it andeverything there is to look
forward to, because I do believethat if I can reshape how you
(21:33):
start to think about your ownaging, you can start to see that
planning process as empowering.
Absolutely it's giving youcontrol over how this goes,
because we do.
We have an enormous amount ofcontrol over how these years are
going to go, but you have totake that power for yourself.
(21:55):
You have to say I'm going todecide how this goes, I'm going
to look forward to it, I'm goingto get all my ducks in a row,
that kind of stuff, and I reallythink the negative outlook is
our biggest obstacle.
And so that's how the book kindof shifted from I'm going to
talk about care management andwhat you need to do to prepare
(22:16):
to no, I really want to talkabout those things, but I want
to talk about them in theframework of let's overcome
ageism, let's overcome our fearof aging.
Let me give you a lot ofexamples.
I have a bunch of interviews inthe book with people who are
the teenagers, as I name them,to say here are people who are
(22:36):
doing really interesting, funthings in these older adult
years, and this could be you too, if you so choose.
That's the point.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
That's great.
What do you think are some ofthe biggest misconceptions about
aging?
I know this is a big topic foryou, so I think we all kind of
get our awareness of thingssometimes from the culture, from
movies, just maybe from ourparents.
There are certain things thatwe just that they are cultural
beliefs, and so what are some ofthe misconceptions that you
(23:08):
would say need to be exposed?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
so I think the the biggest things are that it's all
downhill, right, that, um, allthe negative kind of stereotypes
that we have.
I mean, just go look in thebirthday card section for
anybody over 40, right?
It's like we only have onething to say to you on your
(23:31):
birthday after the age of 40,and that's that you're old,
right.
And so this idea that and we'reall cooking in this cultural
soup all the time, right, sowe're all ageists, we are all
the time right, so we're allageist, we are all ageist.
I really try not to be and it'sso hard.
But my husband caught me theother day.
(23:52):
I had some headphones and theywere my old headphones and they
weren't connecting to my phoneand I said, oh, these are my old
ones, they're just old andcranky.
And he looked at me and he saidyou know, that's ageist, right.
And I'm like, oh, you know, soi's ageist, right.
And I'm like, oh, you know, soI'm hyper aware.
And yet I'm still saying outloud these kind of ageist tropes
, right, these phrases that arejust all around us all the time.
(24:15):
And the thing is there's aresearcher, dr Becca Levy, up at
the Yale School of PublicHealth, and she has a ton of
research about how having apositive outlook on aging,
having just a positivestereotype about that it's going
to, there are things to lookforward to and that you know
(24:36):
it's going to be good, that addsseven additional years to your
life.
You walk faster when you have apositive outlook.
You are 44% more likely torecover from a serious
life-threatening injury.
If you have a positive outlookabout aging, so we have so much
(24:58):
power in just our own mind abouthow this is going to go based
on that outlook that we have.
And that is so wonderful andalso so hard, because we are
living in this society that isjust bombarding us all the time
with the negative agingstereotypes and the tropes.
(25:22):
And that makes sense becausethe anti-aging industry is a
multi-trillion dollar industry,so a lot of people are making a
lot of money off of your fear ofgrowing older.
But just the power we have overour own lives based on how
we're looking at it right, areyou looking forward to it and
(25:44):
thinking it's going to be good,or are you thinking, oh man,
it's all downhill from here.
You know, aging sucks and it'slike maybe don't say that out
loud and don't say it in yourown head either.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So that leads me.
So I really think that's greatand it leads me to a
conversation I think we shouldhave about those crisis
situations where there's afamily that has a crisis
situation.
They come to you and what Iwant to kind of talk about it in
the context of, of course,there's going to be a crisis.
(26:16):
There's going to be for most ofus at least, most of us are
going to experience it in ourfamily, if not for ourselves,
and the idea of approaching itwith that kind of attitude.
So it's true, a lot of folksaren't going to plan ahead, like
we both would like them to do,and they are going to come into
a crisis, and so then we canlook at that crisis in a way of
(26:40):
being very negative about it andreally, you know, just trying
to hide the situation, notengage, not get the interactions
and get the advice and servicesand options that we have.
Or we can approach it with theidea okay, here's a thing, all
right, grandpa has memory loss.
(27:02):
All right, grandpa has memoryloss, grandpa has dementia or
some form of dementia, all right, so that's, that's a, that's
true, that's a reality.
What are we going to do aboutit?
We can hide it and cocoon inour house and and have it affect
, you know, the family's life,because we're all trying to hide
(27:23):
it and cocoon and not you knowhave those interactions, trying
to hide it and cocoon and not,you know, have those
interactions.
Or we can still try to get thebest quality of life that we can
, knowing that there is a factof life that someone has
Alzheimer's or someone hasvascular dementia or whatever it
is, and approach it with thatsame kind of attitude of this is
true.
What are we going to do aboutit?
Are we going to take thatnegative approach, just like you
(27:44):
talked about, or are we goingto approach it with a little bit
of a hopefulness about it tosay what can we do to make the
quality of life of not justgrandpa but also grandma and
kids and the kids that live nextdoor?
So I'd like you to talk alittle bit about that of next
(28:06):
door.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
So I'd like you to talk a little bit about that.
So I'm with you.
I mean, I see that all the time, in the sense that some
families approach it almost asif they feel like it's shameful
that this has happened to theirfamily and the downside of that
is, yeah, that they cocoon, butalso that they miss out on a ton
of resources and things thatcould assist them.
(28:28):
You know, I had a family onetime that the husband had
dementia, the wife was thecaretaker and I, you know, I
asked her OK, who's, who could,who can help you?
Right, like the kids weren'tclose by, but like she had a
church family and things likethat.
I said who could come help you?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
And she said well, they would help me.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
She said, but I don't , I don't want them to see him
like this and so she would notask for help because she didn't
want other people to see herhusband the way he was then and
that, ultimately, is going toburn her out.
You know, because she she needshelp, she needs support, all
those things.
The other thing that I seefamilies do that I actually
(29:10):
think is a pro sometimes, whenparents or some member of the
family is cocooning or nothandling it well, they didn't
prepare, they didn't plan.
When I'm working with the adultchildren in that situation,
they often are kind of watchingthe train wreck that is
(29:31):
happening with their parents andthey go I am never going to do
this Right, I am never going todo this to my children, I am
never going to do this to myself.
And so it can be quite acatalyst for those adult
children to go do their planningright, For them to start to say
how do I put things in place tomake sure this never happens?
(29:54):
And I do.
I hate that that's happeningwith the older generation in
that case.
But I do think that the adultchildren learn a lot.
They cause, they see what,because they see what can go
wrong, and that teaches themsomething that you know, me
saying it to them and you sayingit to them doesn't always make
it sink in.
But when they watch it happen,they realize and then they will
(30:16):
start to make their own plansvery quickly.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I appreciate everythingthat you're doing and the
efforts that you're making toaddress ageism and really kind
of reframe this, which is great.
Any tips that you want to leaveour listeners that you think
might be helpful?
So our listeners are oftenpeople in the long-term care
industry, social workers, peoplein the healthcare industry and
(30:42):
then, of course, just thegeneral public that might be
listening.
So any tips that you would liketo leave them with?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So I really do think our negative story around aging
and ageism is one of our numberone things we have to combat,
both as a society, excuse me andinternally.
And I think it starts with eachof us kind of stopping and
saying, like where my husbandcalled me out, you know on my
(31:13):
own, on my own ageism, butstopping to say how am I viewing
older adulthood, how am Iviewing older adults?
Do I have these negativeinternalized beliefs about aging
?
And you probably do, becausewe've all been raised in this
world and trying to check thatat the door as much as we
(31:36):
possibly can, because once youstart to pay attention to the
ageism in the world, you willsee it everywhere, I mean just
all the time.
But I think it takes each of uspaying attention to it, calling
it out when we see it and going.
You know that's really ageistwhat you just said, which can be
(31:57):
quite uncomfortable because alot of things people say they
just say because that's justconversation, that's the joke
you make that sort of stuff.
That's the only way Like if youdon't like how older people are
treated or viewed.
Today I have news for you thatwe are all old people in
training.
Right, this is coming for allof us viewed and treated today.
(32:27):
The only way we're going tochange that is by changing our
own views and working to changethe views of other people in our
society about older adulthood,so that then you and I are not
viewed and treated the same waywhen we get there.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's fantastic.
So I encourage everybody tocheck out Dr Curran-Ammon's book
Teenagers with a K Telling aNew Story About Aging.
It's a fantastic book.
And, dr Corinne, if people wereinterested in getting more
information, obviously they canprobably get your book from
Amazon or other sources.
What would be the best way ifthey wanted to get more
(33:00):
information about you and thework that you do?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Sure.
So my website is just my name,it's corinnaulmancom and there
you can find links to the book,links to all my social media
accounts, things like that.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
That's fantastic.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
If you've enjoyed this podcastand you want to make sure that
you don't miss any of them, makesure to subscribe.
You can find us at any placethat you listen to podcasts, or
you can go to our website atmanorlawgroupcom, or you can
find us on YouTube.
Thanks so much and we'll seeyou next time.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
To learn more, visit manorlawgroupcom.
Welcome back to Advice from your Advocates.
I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a certified elder lawattorney in Michigan and I'm
really excited about today'spodcast.
I think you're going to findthis really interesting and fun.
So we have Dr Corinne Ahman ofChoice Care Navigators.
Welcome Corinne.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So tell us a little bit about yourself.
I know you have a variety ofexperience and credentials, but
just tell us a little about whoyou are and how you got started
in Choice Care Navigators.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh sure.
So Choice Care Navigators is ageriatric care management agency
, also called Aging Life Care.
That's our professionalorganization and what we do is
help families navigate thesenior health care industry.
So typically people call uswhen there's some sort of crisis
.
You know everything was fineuntil, and you know some sort of
(00:51):
event has happened and now theyneed to figure out everything
there is to know about seniorcare that they yesterday they
didn't think they needed to knowand today they need to know
everything.
And so we're the people youcall to help you figure all
those things out in that momentof crisis.
But I do love it when peoplecall me way ahead of time
(01:12):
because they're planning andthey're thinking and they're
getting ready for these olderadult years.
But that I'd say I get.
Of 10 phone calls, maybe half aphone call is one of those.
Most of them are the crisissort of thing, and so that's
what I do for my day job.
And then I also am an advocatefor changing how we think about
(01:41):
aging, kind of reframing ourviews on aging, because one of
the things I think keeps peoplefrom planning for their older
adult years calling an attorney,getting their paperwork in
order, doing the planning, doingthe talking is just this really
negative story we have aroundaging and all the fear mongering
(02:02):
we do around aging just kind ofin our cultural narrative that
makes people deny it rather thanbase it, and I think there's so
much empowerment and a positivestory around aging and there is
a lot to look forward to.
It is not all doom and gloom,and so if we can focus on those
(02:24):
things, it actually helps usplan and prepare to make it the
best experience it can be.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Now, where are you geographically and what families
that would like to interactwith you?
Do they need to be in a certainarea geographically?
I know that you have.
We're going to talk about yourbook and the cause that you're
promoting here, but from yourday job are you mostly working
with folks that are right aroundyour geographic area.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, so I'm in North Carolina and I'm right in the
center of the state, nearGreensboro, north Carolina, and
so that's where you wouldinteract with me specifically
for my day job.
But there are people like meall over the country and our
professional organization, agingLife Care you can go to their
website, aginglifecareorg, andthere is a search feature that
(03:16):
you can search by zip code forpeople just like me all across
the United States.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's great, out of curiosity.
So you use terms that we useand so there are a small, very
small group of lawyers that do asimilar thing and we
incorporate sort of the legaland financial planning as part
of that care navigation, as partof that life care planning, and
so you use similar language.
Have you ever encounteredlawyers like that or worked with
(03:45):
lawyers in a situation whereyou know we can kind of
collaborate together?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Oh, absolutely yeah, Because if people are really
planning for those years, theyneed to be thinking about, okay,
where, if I were to need care,am I going to stay at home?
What does that cost?
How do I budget for that?
What are my options Like, whatkinds of things can I do at home
?
What kinds of things housemodifications or other things
(04:11):
how do we budget for those?
Do we go ahead and do that?
If I'm going to be in afacility, what do the facilities
cost?
How do I plan appropriately forthat?
What kind of paperwork do Ineed to have done?
Because if you're going to moveinto a facility, they want to
see that you've done ahealthcare power of attorney and
all of that sort of legal stuffthat the attorney is going to
(04:31):
be helping you with.
And then if people are thinkingthat they're going to do like
financial planning and they'regoing to try to protect their
assets so that they mightqualify for Medicaid in the
future, that's okay.
But one of the discussions Iwant to have with them is let's
talk about how that changes youroptions for care when you
(04:52):
actually get to that stage.
Because if you say to me I'mgoing to pay privately for my
care.
You know your options are wideopen in terms of where you might
go.
But if you say I'm going to useMedicaid, that actually narrows
your options quite a bit and wewant to talk about you know the
facilities that will acceptthat form of payment versus if
(05:15):
you're private pay, because itreally does change the outlook
for the care that you're goingto get and if that's what you
want to do, that's your decision.
But I think it's very importantto go into that with open eyes
about you know who's going toaccept that payment and who's
not.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Absolutely, and I agree with you on that.
So, as you know, that variesfrom state to state what
programs are going to cover, andso there's a lot of lawyers, so
there's sort of three sort oflevels of lawyers that do this
type of thing.
So there's a lot of lawyers, sothere's sort of three sort of
levels of lawyers that do thistype of thing.
So there's a lot of lawyersthat do help people with those
government benefits, includingveterans benefits, which is a
(05:52):
lot more flexible than Medicaidoften.
But then there's a group ofattorneys that don't really
actually get involved inapplying for benefits, but
they're telling people inadvance oh, you should plan for
these things.
They won't be there for youwhen you decide to apply for
those benefits.
They're just trying to tell youyears in advance that you
should protect your assets.
(06:13):
And that's where I think yourconversation is very relevant
for folks that they think, okay,well, my lawyer said that I've
done a plan that can help me getmedicaid.
Well, do you know what thatmeans?
What will that get you?
And I think that's a veryimportant conversation.
The third level is what we doand, like I said, there's a
small group of us that do this,where, not only are we
incorporating the governmentbenefits and those types of
(06:35):
things in the legal planning andmaking sure that we have all
the permissions and documents inplace, we are actively involved
in care advocacy, and so that'sa really important part of it
to see that.
Okay, we're not a lot of myclients I've seen me about this
come in a crisis situation, likeyou said, but a lot of our
(06:56):
folks are coming in and we'renot looking at Medicaid.
We might be looking at it as afuture plan, but we're looking
at it from a standpoint ofmaking good decisions,
leveraging the money that wehave, making sure that the
family understands the landscapeof what's out there and making
sure they can get the best carethat they can get for their
family members, whether it be intheir home or outside of their
(07:18):
home Absolutely so.
I know we're going to get toyour book in just a second, but
I'd like to.
I'm really curious about howyou got into this area and what
you know.
What brought this passion toyou?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Sure.
So my personal story, I think,is a lot like a lot of people
who are in the senior care world, in that I had grandparents who
I adored and I happened to liveright next door to them growing
up and we went from these aremy mom's parents and we went
(07:53):
from having both grandparentsthere to my grandfather getting
sick and passing away prettyquickly, and when that happened
my mom and her sister went whatfelt like overnight from having
two parents to only having one,and then realizing very quickly
that my grandfather had beenprotecting my grandmother and
hiding coping for her memorydeficits.
(08:17):
So she had dementia and theyrealized very quickly that she
could not be left alone and hehad been taking care of her.
So I watched that happen when Iwas in like eighth grade and
she did not pass away until Iwas a junior in college.
And so I spent my entire highschool and college years
(08:37):
watching my mom and her sistertry to navigate this right, like
having caregivers in the home,having not so great caregivers
in the home, having to put herin a facility, picking the wrong
facility having to switch.
You know, just kind of makingall the decisions with no
guidance and just thinking atthe time.
(08:58):
Why isn't there somebody whohelps you with this, like why?
isn't there somebody you calland they say, okay, here are
your options and here's whatthey cost and here's what you do
and fast forward.
I went on and got my PhD indevelopmental psychology and my
specialty is adulthood and aging, and I went to.
I've been teaching atuniversities in the either the
(09:19):
psychology or the gerontologyprograms and in 2012, I finally
looked at my husband and saidyou know, that business I've
always talked about that.
There ought to be somebody whohelps you navigate these things,
helps you figure them out.
If I'm ever going to start it,it's time to do it, because
things have only gotten morecomplicated since my grandmother
passed away.
(09:39):
And so the short version of thelong story about how I got into
the field in the first place.
So I was obviously alreadyinterested in working with older
adults.
You know, I went and got thatdegree, but it just took me a
while to get up the gumption tosay, ok, I'm actually going to
go start a business.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Very nice.
So let's get into your book alittle bit.
It's kind of a fun title, soit's Keenagers.
Am I saying that, right,keenagers?
Am I saying that, right,keenager?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, with a K yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Keenager telling a new story about aging.
So let's talk about your book.
How did it come about?
And tell us a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yeah, so the book itself is about how older
adulthood today is differentthan what our stereotypes would
have us believe.
It's different than the olderadulthood that your parents or
grandparents might haveexperienced, because we're
living longer, we're livinghealthier.
You're two times more likely toenter your 60s today with no
(10:36):
chronic conditions than peoplewere 100 years ago, and so All
that has changed.
And yet our story about aging,our stereotypes about aging, the
words we use for olderadulthood have not changed.
If you're 60, we call you anolder adult, and if you're 99,
(10:59):
we call you an older adult.
There is no other time periodin life where we would take
people who are over 30 yearsapart in age and say, hey, you
two are basically the same,right, there's just that doesn't
happen.
And so the book is about howthings have changed, trying to
tell a new story, trying to usesome new language.
(11:21):
Right, this word teenageraround aging and a positive word
.
That's the other thing.
If you think about, what aresome positive words about aging?
Yeah it's really difficult.
So I feel like it's reallyimportant to try to reframe that
story, to reshape that storybecause and this comes from my
(11:44):
care management practice toostory because and this comes
from my care management practicetoo I see the difference in the
people who are looking forwardto growing older those calls I
do get about planning and thoseare the people who have a
positive outlook.
They don't have like a, youknow, it's all going to be great
(12:04):
, nothing's ever going to gowrong, they know.
But they're looking forward tothose years and they're thinking
how do I make this the verybest it can be?
What do I need to do?
How do I talk to my familymembers?
You know, what do I need tomake this go as well as it can
possibly go Versus the peoplewho have a really negative
(12:26):
outlook and who are afraid of it.
They just kind of bury theirheads in the sand.
They don't talk about it, theydon't plan for it.
And that is the crisis callthat I get, where people are
like we didn't, we didn't.
We've never discussed this,we've never talked about it.
I don't know what they want.
I don't know how much moneythey have.
I don't know what they want.
I don't know how much moneythey have.
I don't know anything.
(12:47):
So I think the power of apositive aging story, a positive
aging perspective, is that youwill look forward and go what do
I need to do to make this thebest it can possibly be?
And that there are things tolook forward to as we grow older
, because there are.
(13:08):
You talk to any maybe not any,but you talk to most older
adults and they'll tell you allthe pros.
And there's actually researchon happiness.
There's the U-curve.
Of happiness tells us thatpeople are happy when they're
young and they don't have a tonof responsibilities.
We get into midlife and we getstressed out, but people
(13:29):
actually report the highestlevels of happiness in their 60s
, 70s and 80s.
So, there are things to lookforward to that our cultural
narrative around aging wouldtell you would not have you
believe, and that's why I thinkit's really important to change
it.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
I love everything that you're saying.
I do a lot of talking to groupsand talking to older folks that
you know I'm getting into thatcategory of older folks myself,
but the idea is one of thethings I often will talk about
just to get people thinking inthis kind of same framework is
that all through our lives we'rekind of planning for different
stages, right.
So when we get out of highschool, that's a huge.
(14:16):
My daughter just graduated highschool last year.
That was a huge transition andthere was a whole lot of
planning around that.
Are we going to go in themilitary?
Are we going to go to college?
Are we going to try to, youknow, find a career?
Are we going to go in themilitary?
Are we going to go to college?
Are we going to try to find acareer?
Are we going to get a trade?
There's just a whole lot ofplanning around that.
Certainly, when you get out ofcollege a whole lot of planning
Everybody thinks about that andeverybody understands that as a
(14:37):
transitionary time and that weneed to plan for it.
When we start thinking aboutmarriage, start thinking about
kids that's obviously somethingthat people plan for years for
sometimes and then, of course,when we start thinking about
retirement.
I'm often brought in as aspeaker to places where they say
, well, these folks are probablythinking about retiring in
about 10 years, so they'replanning 10 years in advance for
(15:00):
that, saying, okay, we'regetting ready to retire, and
then all of a sudden it's like,okay, you retired, now,
everything's perfect andeverything's.
You know, not that everything'sperfect necessarily, but there's
no planning.
Nobody thinks about all thetransitions that are going to
occur between retirement anddeath and I'm not afraid, you
know, I think it's important totalk about death as part of that
too, because that is a thingthat we should not avoid talking
(15:23):
about.
And so I do think it's veryinteresting and I encourage
people and I'll encourage folksto read your book and get more
information from you, because itis something that if more folks
would kind of take that likethey do every other part of
their life, and say, hey, thisrequires some planning to, this
requires some thinking through.
There are going to be sometransitions and some changes,
(15:47):
especially as we get into someof the later stages, and the
later stages could be in your60s, they could be in your 90s,
they could be at any time.
We don't know when that's goingto be, but that requires
additional thought, process andplanning and talking to the
family and things like thatthought process and planning and
(16:07):
talking to the family andthings like that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, when Social Security was first enacted in
the 1930s the average Americanlifespan was 67 years.
So you got Social Security at65, and we expected you to be in
quote retirement for a coupleof years.
Today, the average lifespan isaround 77 years.
So we're again, that's back towe're living longer, we're
living healthier and again,that's just the average.
We've got people living intotheir 80s, 90s and beyond you
(16:36):
know, a lot more than we've everhad before.
And so when you think aboutretiring at 65, you're not just
looking at a couple of years,you're looking at decades of
your life still ahead of you,and that it's very typical for
people to retire and then kindof have a honeymoon period where
(16:57):
they're really happy right,because nobody wants to continue
their 40 hour work week.
But then after a couple ofyears you can kind of become
discontented because it's like,well, what am I going to do?
Right, unlimited relaxation isfun for a while, but then it can
kind of become boring.
(17:17):
So what are you going to dowith these decades of your life
socially, emotionally, to giveyou purpose, to make you want to
get out of bed on a Wednesdaymorning?
Sometimes, when I say somethinglike that, somebody will say,
well, what's going to give mepurpose in retirement is sitting
around and doing nothing.
And I get it, because we kindof have this cultural narrative
(17:41):
around retirement that it islike unlimited relaxation, that
you're well-earned rest, and itcan be those things and also be
a time when you find purpose,find meaning in whatever brings
you joy.
You know, maybe it's going backto work, maybe it's starting a
new business, maybe it'svolunteering, maybe it's
(18:01):
caregiving for yourgrandchildren, who knows?
But you will want to findsomething to do, and kind of
planning for that is reallyhelpful.
To say, okay, yeah, I don'thave to work 40 hours a week.
What would I like to do now?
That's going to make me want toget out of bed in the morning.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I want to go back on something that you said a while
back about your grandfather.
When he passed, you guysrealized that he was kind of
covering for your grandmother.
We see that very frequently andit's very interesting,
especially when there's a memoryissue involved.
Families tend to try to hide it, or cocoon within the house to
(18:47):
try to hide it, or cocoon withinthe house, and really you know
that's not good for Grandpabecause now he's not getting the
social interaction andengagement that he needs and
he's having to try to hide this.
But we see it all the time andI think what you're saying is
having these conversations cankind of open that up to say,
look, a lot of almost everybodyyou're going to talk to has that
in their family or they knowsomeone that was suffering from
(19:10):
memory loss, dementia,alzheimer's, you know, and that
this is not a taboo that we haveto hide.
But that is still.
We see this all the time thatthe family comes in.
We see this as we're recordinghere today.
We're coming up to thanksgivingand christmas.
Some of our biggest surges ofpeople calling us is when the
family comes home forThanksgiving, family comes home
(19:31):
for Christmas.
They had no idea until that.
They see it in person that howmuch of a struggle that their
parents are having and thathasn't been talked about or
exposed to them if they're notcoming over or they're not
seeing it, and even sometimes,when they are seeing it, it's
being hidden from them by, youknow, by a loving spouse or
(19:53):
sometimes a loving child, right?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, absolutely no, it's.
The holidays are our biggesttime of the year too November,
december, january in caremanagement.
Because same thing people comehome and they they find out that
things aren't going the waythey thought they were going,
and then we get those same phonecalls.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit more about the book.
I'm really interested in that.
It takes a lot to write a book,and so what was your thought
process, what was your processfor writing that book?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Well, my thought process I'd been talking about
writing a book for five plusyears at least and I finally
decided hey, no, I'm reallygoing to do this.
And I have a great quote up hereon my wall that says writing is
the process by which yourealize you do not understand
what you are talking about.
Because I think I started offthinking I was really going to
(20:46):
write a book about caremanagement right, like planning
and preparing from kind of acare management perspective and
then, as I got into writing it,I was like no, because I think I
go give some of those sametypes of talks you do about
planning and all the things youneed to do to prepare, and I
feel like that not that thereisn't purpose in that, but
(21:08):
sometimes it kind of falls ondeaf ears.
And the reason it falls on deafears is because people are
afraid of it and they don't wantto talk about it because
they're afraid of it.
And so what I really want totalk about is why people
shouldn't be afraid of it andeverything there is to look
forward to, because I do believethat if I can reshape how you
(21:33):
start to think about your ownaging, you can start to see that
planning process as empowering.
Absolutely it's giving youcontrol over how this goes,
because we do.
We have an enormous amount ofcontrol over how these years are
going to go, but you have totake that power for yourself.
(21:55):
You have to say I'm going todecide how this goes, I'm going
to look forward to it, I'm goingto get all my ducks in a row,
that kind of stuff, and I reallythink the negative outlook is
our biggest obstacle.
And so that's how the book kindof shifted from I'm going to
talk about care management andwhat you need to do to prepare
(22:16):
to no, I really want to talkabout those things, but I want
to talk about them in theframework of let's overcome
ageism, let's overcome our fearof aging.
Let me give you a lot ofexamples.
I have a bunch of interviews inthe book with people who are
the teenagers, as I name them,to say here are people who are
(22:36):
doing really interesting, funthings in these older adult
years, and this could be you too, if you so choose.
That's the point.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
That's great.
What do you think are some ofthe biggest misconceptions about
aging?
I know this is a big topic foryou, so I think we all kind of
get our awareness of thingssometimes from the culture, from
movies, just maybe from ourparents.
There are certain things thatwe just that they are cultural
beliefs, and so what are some ofthe misconceptions that you
(23:08):
would say need to be exposed?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
so I think the the biggest things are that it's all
downhill, right, that, um, allthe negative kind of stereotypes
that we have.
I mean, just go look in thebirthday card section for
anybody over 40, right?
It's like we only have onething to say to you on your
(23:31):
birthday after the age of 40,and that's that you're old,
right.
And so this idea that and we'reall cooking in this cultural
soup all the time, right, sowe're all ageists, we are all
the time right, so we're allageist, we are all ageist.
I really try not to be and it'sso hard.
But my husband caught me theother day.
(23:52):
I had some headphones and theywere my old headphones and they
weren't connecting to my phoneand I said, oh, these are my old
ones, they're just old andcranky.
And he looked at me and he saidyou know, that's ageist, right.
And I'm like, oh, you know, soi's ageist, right.
And I'm like, oh, you know, soI'm hyper aware.
And yet I'm still saying outloud these kind of ageist tropes
, right, these phrases that arejust all around us all the time.
(24:15):
And the thing is there's aresearcher, dr Becca Levy, up at
the Yale School of PublicHealth, and she has a ton of
research about how having apositive outlook on aging,
having just a positivestereotype about that it's going
to, there are things to lookforward to and that you know
(24:36):
it's going to be good, that addsseven additional years to your
life.
You walk faster when you have apositive outlook.
You are 44% more likely torecover from a serious
life-threatening injury.
If you have a positive outlookabout aging, so we have so much
(24:58):
power in just our own mind abouthow this is going to go based
on that outlook that we have.
And that is so wonderful andalso so hard, because we are
living in this society that isjust bombarding us all the time
with the negative agingstereotypes and the tropes.
(25:22):
And that makes sense becausethe anti-aging industry is a
multi-trillion dollar industry,so a lot of people are making a
lot of money off of your fear ofgrowing older.
But just the power we have overour own lives based on how
we're looking at it right, areyou looking forward to it and
(25:44):
thinking it's going to be good,or are you thinking, oh man,
it's all downhill from here.
You know, aging sucks and it'slike maybe don't say that out
loud and don't say it in yourown head either.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So that leads me.
So I really think that's greatand it leads me to a
conversation I think we shouldhave about those crisis
situations where there's afamily that has a crisis
situation.
They come to you and what Iwant to kind of talk about it in
the context of, of course,there's going to be a crisis.
(26:16):
There's going to be for most ofus at least, most of us are
going to experience it in ourfamily, if not for ourselves,
and the idea of approaching itwith that kind of attitude.
So it's true, a lot of folksaren't going to plan ahead, like
we both would like them to do,and they are going to come into
a crisis, and so then we canlook at that crisis in a way of
(26:40):
being very negative about it andreally, you know, just trying
to hide the situation, notengage, not get the interactions
and get the advice and servicesand options that we have.
Or we can approach it with theidea okay, here's a thing, all
right, grandpa has memory loss.
(27:02):
All right, grandpa has memoryloss, grandpa has dementia or
some form of dementia, all right, so that's, that's a, that's
true, that's a reality.
What are we going to do aboutit?
We can hide it and cocoon inour house and and have it affect
, you know, the family's life,because we're all trying to hide
(27:23):
it and cocoon and not you knowhave those interactions, trying
to hide it and cocoon and not,you know, have those
interactions.
Or we can still try to get thebest quality of life that we can
, knowing that there is a factof life that someone has
Alzheimer's or someone hasvascular dementia or whatever it
is, and approach it with thatsame kind of attitude of this is
true.
What are we going to do aboutit?
Are we going to take thatnegative approach, just like you
(27:44):
talked about, or are we goingto approach it with a little bit
of a hopefulness about it tosay what can we do to make the
quality of life of not justgrandpa but also grandma and
kids and the kids that live nextdoor?
So I'd like you to talk alittle bit about that of next
(28:06):
door.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
So I'd like you to talk a little bit about that.
So I'm with you.
I mean, I see that all the time, in the sense that some
families approach it almost asif they feel like it's shameful
that this has happened to theirfamily and the downside of that
is, yeah, that they cocoon, butalso that they miss out on a ton
of resources and things thatcould assist them.
(28:28):
You know, I had a family onetime that the husband had
dementia, the wife was thecaretaker and I, you know, I
asked her OK, who's, who could,who can help you?
Right, like the kids weren'tclose by, but like she had a
church family and things likethat.
I said who could come help you?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
And she said well, they would help me.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
She said, but I don't , I don't want them to see him
like this and so she would notask for help because she didn't
want other people to see herhusband the way he was then and
that, ultimately, is going toburn her out.
You know, because she she needshelp, she needs support, all
those things.
The other thing that I seefamilies do that I actually
(29:10):
think is a pro sometimes, whenparents or some member of the
family is cocooning or nothandling it well, they didn't
prepare, they didn't plan.
When I'm working with the adultchildren in that situation,
they often are kind of watchingthe train wreck that is
(29:31):
happening with their parents andthey go I am never going to do
this Right, I am never going todo this to my children, I am
never going to do this to myself.
And so it can be quite acatalyst for those adult
children to go do their planningright, For them to start to say
how do I put things in place tomake sure this never happens?
(29:54):
And I do.
I hate that that's happeningwith the older generation in
that case.
But I do think that the adultchildren learn a lot.
They cause, they see what,because they see what can go
wrong, and that teaches themsomething that you know, me
saying it to them and you sayingit to them doesn't always make
it sink in.
But when they watch it happen,they realize and then they will
(30:16):
start to make their own plansvery quickly.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I appreciate everythingthat you're doing and the
efforts that you're making toaddress ageism and really kind
of reframe this, which is great.
Any tips that you want to leaveour listeners that you think
might be helpful?
So our listeners are oftenpeople in the long-term care
industry, social workers, peoplein the healthcare industry and
(30:42):
then, of course, just thegeneral public that might be
listening.
So any tips that you would liketo leave them with?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So I really do think our negative story around aging
and ageism is one of our numberone things we have to combat,
both as a society, excuse me andinternally.
And I think it starts with eachof us kind of stopping and
saying, like where my husbandcalled me out, you know on my
(31:13):
own, on my own ageism, butstopping to say how am I viewing
older adulthood, how am Iviewing older adults?
Do I have these negativeinternalized beliefs about aging
?
And you probably do, becausewe've all been raised in this
world and trying to check thatat the door as much as we
(31:36):
possibly can, because once youstart to pay attention to the
ageism in the world, you willsee it everywhere, I mean just
all the time.
But I think it takes each of uspaying attention to it, calling
it out when we see it and going.
You know that's really ageistwhat you just said, which can be
(31:57):
quite uncomfortable because alot of things people say they
just say because that's justconversation, that's the joke
you make that sort of stuff.
That's the only way Like if youdon't like how older people are
treated or viewed.
Today I have news for you thatwe are all old people in
training.
Right, this is coming for allof us viewed and treated today.
(32:27):
The only way we're going tochange that is by changing our
own views and working to changethe views of other people in our
society about older adulthood,so that then you and I are not
viewed and treated the same waywhen we get there.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's fantastic.
So I encourage everybody tocheck out Dr Curran-Ammon's book
Teenagers with a K Telling aNew Story About Aging.
It's a fantastic book.
And, dr Corinne, if people wereinterested in getting more
information, obviously they canprobably get your book from
Amazon or other sources.
What would be the best way ifthey wanted to get more
(33:00):
information about you and thework that you do?
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Sure.
So my website is just my name,it's corinnaulmancom and there
you can find links to the book,links to all my social media
accounts, things like that.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
That's fantastic.
Thanks so much for joining ustoday.
If you've enjoyed this podcastand you want to make sure that
you don't miss any of them, makesure to subscribe.
You can find us at any placethat you listen to podcasts, or
you can go to our website atmanorlawgroupcom, or you can
find us on YouTube.
Thanks so much and we'll seeyou next time.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
To learn more, visit manorlawgroupcom.
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