April 30, 2024 • 54 mins
"Who's going to watch over my child and make sure that things are being done properly, that they have everything they need?"
In this conversation, Bob Mannor, a certified elder law attorney, interviews Michele Fuller, a nationally recognized top special needs attorney, about special needs planning.
Bob and Michele discuss the importance of collaboration and the need for a comprehensive approach to planning for families with loved ones with special needs. They highlight the role of a special needs trust and the importance of choosing the right trustee. They also emphasize the need for ongoing planning and the involvement of professionals with expertise in government benefits and financial management. Overall, the conversation provides valuable insights into the key considerations and resources for special needs planning.
They also offer advice for professionals working with families in this situation and highlight the importance of engaging the thinking brain and testing processes. The conversation concludes with information and additional resources.
Takeaways
- Special needs planning requires a comprehensive and collaborative approach
- Ongoing planning is necessary to address changing circumstances and laws
- Leaving funds for a special needs child through a standalone trust can protect them from potential disruptions in social security benefits and ensure that the funds are used appropriately.
- Proper planning is crucial to avoid common mistakes, such as disinheriting the special needs child or leaving funds to someone else without proper safeguards.
- Creating a memo of intent that outlines the family's values, wishes, and instructions for care is essential for effective planning.
- Professionals working with families in special needs planning should meet them where they're at, help clarify their struggles, and provide resources and guidance tailored to their specific needs.
- Every family with a disabled or special needs child should consult with a special needs attorney to develop a plan that addresses their specific needs and concerns.
Host: Attorney Bob Mannor
Guest: Attorney Michele Fuller
Executive
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ABOUT US:
Mannor Law Group helps clients in all matters of estate planning and elder law including special needs planning, veterans’ benefits, Medicaid planning, estate administration, and more. We offer guidance through all stages of life.
We also help families dealing with dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and other illnesses that cause memory loss. We take a comprehensive, holistic approach, called Life Care Planning. L
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Attorney Bob Mannor (00:00):
You're listening to Advice from your
Advocates, a show where weprovide elder law advice to
professionals who work with theelderly and their families.
Attorney Michele Fuller (00:10):
Welcome back to Advice from your
Advocates.
I'm Bob Mannor.
I'm a certified elder lawattorney in Michigan and we have
a special focus in our lawpractice on families that have a
loved one with dementia.
Today we're going to be talkingto one of my favorite attorneys
, and that's Michele Fuller.
Michele, welcome.
Attorney Bob Mannor (00:29):
Thank you so much for having me, Bob.
Attorney Michele Fuller (00:31):
So Michele is a friend of mine and
one of the well certainly a topattorney in the country when it
comes to special needs planning.
In fact, parents Magazine hasdeclared her to be a top special
needs attorney for the entirecountry, and they're not the
only ones that have realized howspecial Michele is.
(00:54):
In fact, the state of Michiganand the governor, has appointed
Michele as a special attorneygeneral.
Now, for those of you inMichigan, you certainly know
about this, but even if you'reoutside of Michigan, you've
probably heard of the Flintwater crisis, where there was a
lot of people, and especiallychildren, that were exposed to
(01:16):
some chemicals or lead.
I think.
Was it lead, Michele?
Attorney Bob Mannor (01:19):
Yes, lead poisoning.
Attorney Michele Fuller (01:20):
In their drinking water, and so, of
course, there were somesettlements based on this and
they needed to figure out how tomanage those settlements.
And so they scoured the stateand they said who could be
capable of this?
And they figured out thatMichele was very capable of it.
So she's a very special person,a very special attorney.
Michele, tell us a little bitabout your practice.
Attorney Bob Mannor (01:41):
Well, thanks, bob.
It's always a delight to workwith you on anything, and so I
really wanted to thank you forallowing me to participate in
this really awesome podcast.
And so my practice is reallywith a focus on special needs
planning, and I've been doingthat since I was a baby lawyer
working for Patricia Patterson,my favorite professor at
(02:01):
University of Detroit Law School, so I've been doing it ever
since and that is really thefocus of my practice, and I also
have a child with special needs, and so that helps to drive my
passion.
That already existed, but thatis really the focus of my part
of the practice, and I know thatyou and I collaborate quite a
bit, and the other part of whatI do is I administer special
(02:24):
needs trust through a nonprofitthat I established in 2005
called Advocacy, and so that hasa little bit of history, and
you and I kind of talked aboutthis.
You know to prepare for this,and the purpose of that is
basically to fulfill the promisethat we make to clients when
we're doing planning and whatthat looks like, and so, as a
(02:45):
planner, we get involved increating the legal structure,
and the biggest concern thatparents have any parent has is
what's going to happen after I'mgone?
Who's going to watch over mychild and make sure that things
are being done properly, thatthey have everything that they
need and they're not justsubsistence but they're actually
thriving?
And so, to be fair, I just tooka look around and I was like I
(03:09):
just don't like what I see, andso that's where it all started
and that's where my career haskind of flourished in that area.
Attorney Michele Fuller (03:19):
You know, it's really interesting
the way you talk about that,michelle, because it's so true
and a lot of folks they think oflawyers as documents or they
think of them as transactional.
And a lot of lawyers think ofit that way they want to do the
documents, they want to get theclient in, do the work, get a
check and then be done with it.
(03:40):
And both you and I have acompletely different perspective
, that this is about producingresults for the families,
helping the families throughthese situations, through these
crises, and that is not aone-time event, it's not a
transactional event.
So I'm glad that you broughtthat up because it really is a
kind of a distinction betweenyour practice and my practice
(04:03):
and a lot of what people imaginefor lawyers and what a lot of
what lawyers think of themselvesis it's just a transaction and
then we're done with it.
Families aren't a transaction.
Families go on, life goes onand things change and they need
to have the assistance andadvocacy I like the name of the
company advocacy through therest of their lives sometimes.
Attorney Bob Mannor (04:26):
Exactly, and I think that's where one of
the reasons that you and I getalong so well is that we have a
similar value, which is that youknow you can treat estate
planning, or planning thatfamilies need, as a transaction,
like you said, and the idea isyou know, you just call us when
you need us, but the familiesdon't know when they need us.
They need to maintain an estateplan, and it might be a little
(04:47):
surprising, right?
You might have to, as familiesare listening to this.
You might have, if you have one.
You might have to blow the dustoff of the binder that's
sitting on a shelf somewhere,and that's fine, unless there's
never, you know, no changes inthe law, there's no changes in
your family or no changes inwhat you own, and that doesn't
apply to anyone that I know.
(05:14):
Relationships change, yourassets change, how you think
about things, change and makingsure that things go smoothly,
and the best way to do that isto have a relationship with your
planning attorney, and so Iknow that your focus on elder
law is usually driven by crisisright, and that's where you
excel, for sure, and so this iswhere you know this isn't just
we don't want a crisis, is aboutcrisis prevention, and so
(05:36):
having a legally sufficientframework is just a starting
point, and so that's one of thethings with elder law and
special needs planning that it'snot just about creating a
sufficient legal document, it'sabout the resources.
And where are you at today?
Okay, assessing where there'sgaps, where there's frustrations
(05:59):
, predicting the future right,because there's hoping, and then
there's planning.
Attorney Michele Fuller (06:06):
Right.
Attorney Bob Mannor (06:06):
Drives you toward whatever that goal might
be, and it might be hard.
You have a special needs childthat's young.
You don't know where they'regoing to end up.
My daughter, for instance, Imean she's fantastic and she's
living independently inCalifornia.
If you had talked to me whenshe was five, there's no way I
could have predicted that shewould be where she's at today,
(06:27):
and so this is where thatrelationship is really important
.
And families don't know.
They don't know what they don'tknow.
So finding an elder lawattorney and finding a special
needs planning attorney first,they don't even know what to
call it.
So that's the first thing.
But a lot of estate plannerswill say that they do them.
(06:48):
So one of the questions forbeing a good consumer as a
family what do you look to?
How many do they do a year, oris it less than 10?
How do they keep up withchanges in the law and how many
of they defended right, whatadditional resources they can
(07:10):
bring to the table.
And I know that's somethingthat you and I really have in
common, where it's that we bringthose additional resources in
to help eliminate frustrationsand give the client the services
that they need, where it maynot be within our office, but
it's about that collaboration tohave a complete plan, and so
that's just a good startingpoint as to what they look for,
(07:33):
what kind of questions to ask oftheir estate planner and
customization building in thatframework.
Attorney Michele Fuller (07:40):
You said a couple things that I want
to highlight there because Ithought they were really
interesting.
One was the idea of that thefamilies don't know what they
don't know.
To be honest, they can't know.
It would be shocking if afamily knew all the things they
needed to know to deal with thelaw and Social Security and
(08:01):
insurance and Medicare and allof the different programs that
are out there and dealing withthe healthcare system, dealing
with the, you know, hopefullyavoiding the court system.
You know all those things Idon't know in both of our
practices with special needs andwith elder law.
I don't know that most lawyerscould maneuver the maze that is
(08:25):
created for both of thesepractices.
Attorney Bob Mannor (08:28):
I agree.
I mean, if I ran across aclient that could do that, I
would hire them.
Attorney Michele Fuller (08:32):
Yes, exactly Exactly.
The other thing you said that Ithought was really important to
highlight was defending thework, and that's something that
we both are comfortable doing,and a lot of lawyers are happy
to do the planning, but they'reworried about it or they won't
defend it.
In other words, if it getschallenged by Social Security,
(08:53):
if it gets challenged by theDepartment of Health and Human
Services and they say thatsomething is wrong or that they
don't like the wording ofsomething, that you have and I
have the capacity to defend ourwork and pursue it through the
appropriate appellate process,and that, I think, is a huge
advantage for our clients.
Attorney Bob Mannor (09:13):
Absolutely, and I think that that's where
we, in my practice and in yours,get referrals from other
professionals that maybe havedrafted a trust but they've run
into a problem, from otherprofessionals that maybe have
drafted a trust but they've runinto a problem.
And so, as a consumer or as apotential client, I think that's
an important question to ask.
Is that how many?
Not if, but well, maybe that'swhere you start is have you
(09:35):
defended a special needs trustin front of either DHS or social
security and, if so, what'syour win rate?
Right, that's a big deal.
So I think that it does take aspecial skill set.
And if you run into a referralwhere I do get some of those
referrals from other attorneyswhere they're like there's a
(09:57):
problem here and we need to getthis fixed One is that assessing
the problem appropriately.
Is this something that'sfixable or what's the end game?
So what is the client'sobjective and what's the
quickest, most efficient,cost-effective way to get there?
And it may not be pursuing anappeal, it might be just fixing
(10:17):
the problem, and so sometimesit's just putting that choice in
front of the client what areyou giving up by going with
choice A versus choice B, andwhat is the cost, and so usually
you know, and then what's yourrecommendation?
So it's just like anyprofession.
You know, if you think aboutthis in a medical sense, if you
have cancer you don't go to yourgeneral practitioner.
(10:39):
You go to them when you have acold or a stomach ache or I've
got a sinus infection, but ifyou have a heart condition,
you're going to go to acardiologist, right, and so it's
the same thing you want to goto a specialist.
If you have a child that's gotchallenges, and it's just not.
It's not limited to thatclassic.
You know, child in a wheelchairor something like that.
(11:01):
It's where you think of atypical diagnosis.
It could be someone who'sstruggling, where they're.
Just you know how many kids didwe go to school with that?
They didn't get properlydiagnosed.
You see the effect of whatthey've been struggling with,
but not the underlying cause,and so you could see it.
Where you've got multiplefailed marriages, and so you
(11:24):
could see it.
Where you've got multiplefailed marriages, where you've
got money issues, addictionissues, mental health struggles,
and so it's not just theclassic.
You know, child lockdownsyndrome, it's a spectrum Right.
Have a child that you'reconcerned with and with their
ability to manage money, wherethey need that additional
(11:46):
support and framework, then thatalso is a special need that
gets under that umbrella as well.
So do they need additionalprotection?
Are you concerned about it?
Then that's something thatshould be consulted about.
Attorney Michele Fuller (11:59):
I think that's an excellent point,
michelle, that really, when it'sparents talking about how we're
going to leave our money to ourchildren, it doesn't have to be
a government defined disabilityright.
There are times where we dowant, you know, we might want an
entity like Advocacy Inc tohelp manage that money.
(12:22):
You know money and inheritancecan hurt somebody.
I know that we never.
We hardly.
Most people don't think aboutit that way, but if somebody's
having addiction issues orthey're having other issues or
marital issues and we throw abunch of money at them, it can
make their life a lot worse thanif it's managed properly, if
they're getting the moneythrough an appropriate
(12:43):
management of that money.
And so that's not necessarily adefined disability according to
the government, but it issomething that parents might
want to think about from thestandpoint of saying, okay, we
worked really hard for thismoney, maybe we got it from our
parents, things like that.
But whatever it is, we want tomake sure that this is made for
(13:04):
good use and it's not actuallygoing to harm our children.
Attorney Bob Mannor (13:08):
Absolutely, and that's where the choice of
trustee is huge.
So typically when I draft, youknow there's different
perspectives on this.
There's not one way to dothings, certainly, especially
when it comes to drafting.
But in other words, what do thewords look like, what is our
governing instrument, what isour contract and the rules that
(13:31):
we're creating in this documentthat we call a trust?
And so typically what I like todo is balance a professional
trustee with a role for familyto be like a super trustee.
They make sure that the trusteeis doing their job, but they're
not responsible for day-to-dayactivities.
So most of the time when we'rethinking about trust and who we
nominate as trustee now, this isfor any kind of trust, right,
(13:56):
but most importantly, a specialneeds trust where the trust is
designed to really be createdand act for life, not just pay
it out over a certain period oftime.
Think about that child.
Most of the time, people arewho are they nominating?
They're nominating an adultchild, like the responsible
child, right, which is typicallyyou or me or someone like us, a
(14:21):
busy professional, and so arethey going to have the time to
do?
It is first, first and foremost, and the answer is probably not
.
Secondly, um, you know they'rethe ones who now, instead of
just having a brother or sisterrelationship, now they're the
money manager, they're what'sstanding between their sibling
(14:43):
and a trustee, or in their money, and so do you want them having
to take the calls and make harddecisions?
And so it's usually better inthose circumstances to have an
independent trustee who'sdoesn't have, um, you know,
decades of emotional, you know,sibling issues, parent issues
(15:06):
Not every family is.
You know the Brady family was ablended family right, and they
didn't talk about ex-spousesever on the Brady family, or
former or widows or any of thatfamily, additional family
structures, and you know it'snot unusual to have blended
families.
And so those are just layers ofcomplications that sometimes
(15:27):
can be better handled whenyou've got an independent
trustee where they're makingthose decisions and handling
day-to-day types ofadministration, government
entities and policies thatchange every quarter or are
updated quite frequently, like,for instance, on SSI, social
(15:50):
security just eliminated food asan issue, oh, my goodness.
Yeah, that's a huge deal.
It's being completely, you know, it's being phased in and
implemented as of September, sothat changes and impacts
directly impacts the lives ofpeople who are on SSI benefits.
How does a family trusteenavigate that and manage that
(16:12):
and make sure that they'restaying up to date on all of
that on top of everything elsethat they already have to do
during their lives manage theircareer, their own family?
Attorney Michele Fuller (16:21):
they just have no shot and so it's
very difficult michelle, Iwanted to address that too,
because you know part of thatpeople don't always like to
think about this part of it, butit's also the money management
meaning uh, growing the moneypotentially, and so we're
sometimes expecting someone nowthat to not only be an expert at
(16:45):
government policy, know all ofthe changes that might occur on
any given day with regard toSocial Security, medicare,
medicaid insurance, health care,decision making, all of these
things.
But now they have to be afinancial expert too, otherwise,
you know, sometimes we talkabout, oh okay, the cost of a
professional trustee.
It's often going to be the costis the cost that's lost by not
(17:13):
getting good money managementand making sure that the money
has an opportunity to growproperly, rather than relying on
your child to be an expert atso many different fields,
including all of the financialand tax issues that come up with
regard to these issues.
Attorney Bob Mannor (17:29):
Exactly, and that's where I don't do that
.
Personally, I can't doeverything Right, but that's
where we have money managers forprofessionals, so you do do it
because you manage the peoplethat have that expertise.
Attorney Michele Fuller (17:43):
I want to be clear.
That's one of the things Ireally appreciate about the
services that you offer.
You have all of these strategicpartners so that you have the
experts for any field that weneed.
Attorney Bob Mannor (17:54):
Absolutely, and that's where you know.
I think that's one of thehallmarks of, I think, a good
lawyer is that you know yourlane and you don't have to have
the answer for everything, youjust have to know how to get the
answer.
And that's where you've gotlike you mentioned strategic
partnerships, so that you've gotso having a certified financial
advisor that has a fiduciaryresponsibility.
(18:17):
So let's talk about that.
I think you and I have probablyseen the commercial for Fisher
Investments that just has stuckwith me as being a fiduciary and
what that means.
And that means that you have toalways act in the other
person's best interest, andwhether you're acting as a power
of attorney for somebody, youhave a fiduciary duty.
(18:38):
That means that you must act intheir best interest, not your
own personal interest.
Whether that's comminglingfunds, you cannot do that.
You can't sell property thatbenefits you and doesn't act in
the best interests of yourclient or whoever you're acting
on their behalf.
So fiduciary roles are superimportant.
(18:59):
And you may not realize thatwhen you are appointed to act in
that capacity in other words,you're acting as someone's agent
under a power of attorney, or apersonal representative of
their estate or a trustee thatis your duty, not as a brother
or a sister.
You must act in that person'sbest interest, and that goes for
(19:21):
financial advisors.
They must have a fiduciary duty.
I don't like working with onesthat do not, because there's no
obligation then they don't haveto match.
It gives them license then toact in their own best interest,
which you know, that's not whatwe do every day.
We have a duty to our clients,and so part of that is making
(19:43):
sure that we have good referralpartners, and so one of the
things that I know is thatfamilies will have a, you know,
they'll have a relationship witha financial advisor and as part
of business management, part ofwhat we do is just an
independent assessment Are theyreally, are they the right fit
for the entire bucket ofwhatever we're supposed to be
(20:06):
managing?
And so sometimes we'll have itreviewed and we're like, you
know, by someone else who'sindependent and go oh yeah,
they're doing a great job,wonderful.
Then, of course, our firstobjective is just to keep that
team in place.
If they're a known, trustedpart of the decision making that
a family has assembled, that'sgreat.
But what if they're a known, uh, trusted part of the
decision-making that a familyhas assembled, that's, that's
(20:27):
great.
But what if they're not great?
Or maybe they're not great forthat purpose?
So planning for someone'sretirement is different than
managing a lifelong specialneeds trust.
Um and so we tend to work withfiduciaries or financial
advisors that that is their bookof business, that they are
familiar with it, particularlyif we're looking at court
(20:47):
supervised trusts.
We want to make sure that themoney lasts, that the objective
and the goals of the client are,first and foremost, not meaning
mom and dad at that point, butthe beneficiary of that trust,
and so we review these all thetime.
We meet with people like howmany financial advisors do you
(21:08):
work with where, once they havethe money under management, you
never really hear from themagain?
Right, it's just like you knowthere's lawyer jokes about.
You know you can't Rightthere's tons but there's.
You know we know greatprofessionals that have an
excellent commitment to service,that have an excellent
commitment to service, and soyou know I like how you're
talking about collaboration.
Attorney Michele Fuller (21:29):
I do want to clarify some of our
early conversation about thelawyers that we work with, and
one of the things I really likeabout our practice both your
practice area and mine is thatit tends to be very
collaborative, and that's someareas of law tend to be very
cutthroat and that you don't youknow you don't want to help
(21:51):
each other, and that's not beenmy experience in special needs
planning and elder law that thebar, the people that take this
work seriously, tend to worktogether.
They tend to share information.
We tend to look at it as wehave a common goal and we're all
moving towards that common goal, and I think that's important
(22:13):
to acknowledge that you knowwell.
There's certain elder lawissues that I'm going to
probably either seek counselfrom someone else or I might
refer it out.
That is one of those thingswhere we tend to as a bar group,
as a lawyer group, tend to bevery collaborative and
(22:35):
cooperative as opposed tocompetitive.
Attorney Bob Mannor (22:38):
I agree.
I mean, both of us are theformer chairs of the Elder Law
and Disability Rights section ofthe state Bar, and so we've had
the benefit of thatcollaboration and you and I
personally collaborate withclients, and because we just
look at things differently,where we're really looking out
for the client's best interest,and if there's a resource I have
(23:00):
, whether it's a case managementor financial advisor, any kind
of resource that I have thatwill help you with your client
we'll share that information andwe have specialty list serves
and all kinds of stuff that thatwe do to make sure that we do
that.
So you're right, I think thatour area of practice is pretty
special in that regard is andplus we're lucky, our colleagues
(23:20):
are fantastic.
Attorney Michele Fuller (23:21):
So I'll share with.
I'll share with our listenersthat one of my one of the
reasons why I appreciated youbeing chair of our section of
the bar before me was youcleaned it up and so you ran a
tight ship.
It was the meetings used to goon forever.
When you took over, you madesure that we were effective and
efficient and we had committeesand the work was done
(23:43):
efficiently.
And then I got to take over, soyou cleaned it up before I had
to get involved.
Attorney Bob Mannor (23:49):
And I appreciate that.
I just got Maria's her reportsand the notes from last time and
I could see that some of thestructure that was put in place
about the committee reports andall of that was it was.
I think that's how you knowyou've done a really good job
when it stands the test of time.
Attorney Michele Fuller (24:06):
That's it Exactly right.
I think most of the reforms andchanges that you created
definitely continued after youwere no longer chair, because we
all saw the value and benefitof that.
I do want to take a minute andtake a step back, because I
think well, because I think well.
Parents with special needschildren often get their own
(24:28):
education on law and advocacy,especially when they start going
to the schools and they havetheir IEP meetings and things
like that, so they startbecoming educated pretty early
on.
But I want to you know, a lotof the listeners for this
(24:49):
podcast are going to be otherprofessionals, social workers,
maybe even financial advisorsand attorneys, and so I want to
go back and take a sort ofone-on-one or one-on-one
approach on this.
So let's just start withexplaining what special needs
planning is and why it'simportant for families with
loved ones with special needs.
Attorney Bob Mannor (25:07):
I think that what makes it different, or
what's different about it, isthat part of it is my approach.
It's got to be a right fit.
So for you, as a professionalor a planner, are you the right
fit for this family?
So?
if a family comes to you andthey have a recent diagnosis,
(25:29):
that's particularly challengingdesigning a plan that will help
alleviate their concerns, whichis usually worst case scenario,
like they're away for a weekendand something horrible happens,
that their children are takencare of.
So one of the tools that I canrecommend for planners,
(25:51):
professionals or even familiesthat are just getting into this
and exploring like, oh, what dowe need?
We don't even know what we need.
One is that I know, as you wellknow, I took a note out of your
book, right, and we do what'scalled the Great Lakes Special
Needs Planning Symposium.
Attorney Michele Fuller (26:08):
Yeah, which is great, by the way.
Attorney Bob Mannor (26:10):
Thank you.
And so you can look forresources and past recordings of
sessions on movingtomasterycom.
And so there are some freethings on there for consumers,
but also for professionals whoare really looking for a deeper
dive, and I do have familiesthat go to that as well, that
want to really dig in and knowsome of the intricacies of, for
(26:33):
instance, public benefits.
Right, there's 90 minutes deepdive on SSI and social security
and how that works.
There's a great drafting 101for professionals, but sometimes
families want to know what toexpect and what they should
expect from an attorney.
So that's a really goodfoundational way to start.
The other is Disability 101.
(26:57):
Disability 101 is a nationalwebsite and you can do a state
by state search and it will listall of the resources for a
special needs family in thatstate.
And so you know people don'talways stay in one state, so if
you have a transfer or you'regoing through a change in your
family of any kind which mayrequire a relocation, how do you
(27:18):
know?
You might know what you've got,where you're at, but how do you
know what's ahead?
And that is a really good placeto start Like, oh, what's
available in Florida, what'savailable in this part of
Florida or California, which is,like to me, the gold standard
of what's available for publicbenefits for people with
developmental disabilities.
And so that's where a goodplanner and the value of and one
(27:42):
of the other things that I knowthat you and I are both
involved in nationalorganizations, and when you're
dealing with federal benefits, Ithink it is super helpful to be
part of a national organizationbecause it helps you really
collaborate with otherprofessionals in other parts of
the country and at least besomewhat aware of how things are
(28:04):
different from where you sitnormally, and so that is super
helpful.
But as a starting point, a goodspecial needs planning attorney
will not just create a specialneeds trust that fits where your
family is at today, but willalso bring in additional
resources.
Like an IEP advocate right,because you don't know what, you
(28:28):
don't know what's next.
What are some critical agesthat are up ahead and key
turning points?
So one is really where there'san initial diagnosis.
One is where the child is nowbecoming a legal adult at age 18
, or if they continue in school,like for Michigan, we are the
(28:50):
only state in the country thateducates up to age 26.
Most other states end at age 21.
And that's extraordinary, andso that's another key planning
point is what happens afterschool is done.
Key planning point is when whathappens after school is done,
(29:11):
and so and putting thingstogether with other resources.
Like we have a fantastic ARCfor us, lisa Lapine, who I know
you know that we went to lawschool together.
She is the director of ARC ofMacomb a fantastic and strong
ARC where they may not be asstrong in other parts of the
country.
And so, but collaborations andthat's where building in
resources are tremendous.
(29:31):
But from a special needsplanning standpoint, there are
some key things to look for, andone is are you using a pool
trust?
And for professionals attorneysit should be a tool in your
toolbox and for anybody whowants more information about how
(29:52):
and when to use a pool trust.
I've written articles aboutthis.
I'm happy to shoot some over toyou.
So there's one that I wrotespecifically on using a third
party pool trust.
Let me back up a little bit.
There's a basic question to askfirst.
Which is, whose money is it?
Who are we planning for?
Does the person with adisability have money today that
(30:13):
needs to be managed and itcould happen at any time?
Accident, injury or illness canhappen at any point in
someone's life.
So if they're getting moneyfrom a lawsuit and that's the
only money that they have, great, so we call that, when it
belongs to the individualthemselves, the money that we're
planning for.
(30:33):
That's a first-party specialneeds trust and it comes from
contract language party thefirst part versus party the
third part.
It's the person's money.
So first-party special needstrust.
If it's anyone else's money,like estate planning it's mom
and dad's money, it's grandmaand grandpa's money or
crowdfunded money.
If the money comes from someoneelse, anyone other than the
(30:57):
beneficiary, then we call thatthird party money and it
requires a third party specialneeds trust.
So whose money is it?
First party versus third party?
The other aspect is what kind oftrust?
Now, from a planning standpoint, I look at pooled trusts, which
means that it's administered bya nonprofit, that there's one
(31:21):
master trust agreement thatgoverns a certain type of
individual.
So most of the time we'relooking at someone with
disabilities that's beendiagnosed or we have a known
struggle, and so Spring HillHousing Corporation is the
nonprofit that I represent thathas state that really they can
act nationally but they reallyconcentrate more for Michigan
(31:44):
claimants or Michiganbeneficiaries and they have both
a first and a third partypooled special needs trust.
So, as a planner, what I lookat is are we looking at a family
with modest means Withespecially like, a young family
that is just starting out?
They don't want to pay $5,000to $10,000, $15,000 for an
(32:07):
estate plan?
Attorney Michele Fuller (32:08):
Right.
Attorney Bob Mannor (32:09):
Way more than they need.
They need something that'slegally, that's really effective
but economical.
And so for planners and socialworkers and anybody that is
listening to this really anyfamily of modest means they
should be looking at a pool,pool trust for a really quick
(32:29):
and simple and effective,cost-effective but incredibly
effective on the planning sidefor that family.
But when you're getting intomore assets life insurance,
blended families, anything likethat I really prefer a
standalone special needs trustthat means it's a custom drafted
trust that's tailored to thatgroup of people and where it's
(32:53):
really all the rules are aboutthem.
So some of the things I reallyjust don't like having a trust
with inter-trust so you'll haveprovisions with in revocable
living trust, and I personallydon't like that because I
administer these trusts.
It makes it infinitely harder.
Just from what do I name theaccount?
(33:14):
If you think about it, you gowell, who's?
Who is this about?
Who is this for?
What do I call it?
And then all the rules like howdo you change trustees?
Is the nominated trustee whoyou want to administer mom and
dad's trust?
You know, if you're mom and dadmaking the plan, is that who
you want to act as trustee forthe special needs person, and if
(33:38):
it's a trust within the trust,it doesn't allow the planner,
the lawyer, to really askquestions about that and create
a separate framework that'sdesigned to last for the life of
the individual, and so that'sjust a personal preference.
There's no wrong way to do it,but wouldn't you?
Attorney Michele Fuller (33:58):
agree that that's probably the most
common way.
I agree with you.
The standalone and we'll talk alittle bit more about this the
standalone trust, especially fora third-party trust, is going
to be much better for so manydifferent reasons, but wouldn't
you agree that probably the mostcommon thing that we see is
(34:19):
this being drafted as a trustwithin a trust, or even a trust
within a will as a trust?
Attorney Bob Mannor (34:24):
within a trust, or even a trust within a
will, a hundred percent.
I see that all the time andit's it's very difficult to
change, it's very difficult toreally.
You know, all the defaultprovisions, all the rules about
how that money is administered,is designed for who?
For the?
people creating the trust whichis mom and dad, and it doesn't
(34:46):
allow for flexibility.
So there's a difference betweenlegally sufficient meaning is
it going to protect the personfrom social security benefit
disruption?
But if that's our onlyobjective, then that's okay, I
guess.
But really the objective ismuch bigger.
It's about creating a good lifeand having a document that
(35:08):
doesn't require a probateproceeding to change and modify
as the person's needs change,and so I find that usually a
standalone trust, if it makessense for that family
financially is a worthwhileinvestment.
Financially is a worthwhileinvestment.
Attorney Michele Fuller (35:26):
I appreciate your descriptions of
the different types of trust Ithink that's so important and I
think most folks get realconfused about that and your
advocacy for pooled trust forthose with more modest, less
(35:48):
money to be protected.
The pooled trust is a greatoption.
It's managed by the rightpeople, by the people that are
caring for others in similarsituations.
It's just a great option.
But the standalone trust whenit's going to, when there's a
little bit more means there,when there's a little bit more
money there, one of the bigadvantages I think of the
standalone trust.
If you have a special needschild and you have a standalone
trust for that special needschild, then you can tell,
(36:11):
because one of the things thathappens so often is grandma and
grandpa are really trying to bereally nice and they leave
something for that special needschild or brother or sister or
aunt or uncle.
They are trying to be reallynice and they put their special
needs child the special needsniece or nephew or brother,
sister as a beneficiary of theirIRA.
(36:31):
Now we've got a big problem andso once you have that
standalone trust, you can telleverybody about that standalone
trust and you can say, hey, I'mnot saying that you should leave
anything to our child, but ifyou happen to do it through this
trust, each person doesn't haveto create their own standalone
trust.
We only need the one standalonetrust for that child and then
(36:53):
anybody can put the money intoit through inheritance, through
beneficiary designations, thingslike that.
And that's when I think is oneof the big advantages of that
standalone.
I guess you could do that withpooled trust too, but with the
standalone trust is that thenyou can instruct your parents,
you know the grandparents, youcan instruct the brothers and
(37:13):
sisters, the you know aunts anduncles.
Hey, if you even, if you'reeven, if you're going to leave
10 or 20 or $50,000 to them,make sure you do it this way
100%.
Attorney Bob Mannor (37:22):
I think that that's where well-meaning
family members will want to dothat, and it is very hard to do
if you do not have a standalone.
And that was an excellentillustration, an example of when
it would make sense to makethat investment, because it does
allow you to do that and inviteothers that will.
(37:43):
You know, you don't have to theletter.
We give a sample letter tofamilies and it's if you choose
to leave funds to our child,please do it this way.
Right, it's, it's supereffective that way.
And that's one of the biggestthings that I see missing is
that people don't they don'tnecessarily want to talk about
(38:04):
it, but that highlights some ofthe biggest mistakes that I see,
which is, instead of leavingfunds for a person with
disabilities, they will leave anextra share to someone else.
Or, worst case scenario, theyhave all their, they need, they
don't need any money and they'lljust cut them out entirely.
And of course, I'm not going to.
(38:25):
I don't love that, and the waypeople can think about it is
that you're leaving your mostvulnerable beneficiary, your
most vulnerable loved one, whocannot make money on their own,
even more vulnerable, and so,whether cutting them out
(38:48):
entirely or leaving an extrashare to somebody else.
There's no checks and balancesthere, so if they want to spend
something on their siblingusually it's a sibling they may
have the best of intentions, butmaybe the person that they're
married to is not 100% on boardwith that.
Attorney Michele Fuller (39:07):
Or they die.
Attorney Bob Mannor (39:08):
Or they die and there's no protection there
.
Nothing.
That or they die or they dieand there's no protection there
nothing.
And so, um, one of the worstexamples that I've seen of that
is where, um, a woman who had anumber of children, um, and
several of them, which this canrun in families, had a
particular diagnosis fragile xand so they all, through
(39:33):
fundraising in their community,very strong member of her
community was able to fundraiseand buy a house for those
children.
Well, she has a neurotypicalchild as well and as part of her
estate plan, she did a do ityourself deed or that house and
she passed away, and so theneurotypical child, the
(39:55):
responsible child, now ownedthat house that all their
siblings with disabilities livedin.
Well, what couldn't have beenpredicted is that child filed
for bankruptcy.
Attorney Michele Fuller (40:07):
Oh no.
Attorney Bob Mannor (40:08):
You can see where I'm headed there.
So I got a call from thebankruptcy attorney saying can
you help me, can you help here?
And the bankruptcy trustee.
They had no option but to goforward and liquidate that house
.
They were mandated to do so.
They couldn't afford, they werenot allowed to be compassionate
(40:30):
and say, oh my gosh, if we dothat, we're going to cause these
four people to have to go intoinstitution and they will no
longer be able to live together.
And so the only other optionwas to.
You know, they thankfullywithdrew their bankruptcy to
save the house, but that is thedire impact of what could happen
(40:53):
without proper planning,especially a do it yourself type
of plan.
Attorney Michele Fuller (40:57):
I think that's so important I want to
repeat it and I hear it all thetime too that folks will come in
and they've got a special needschild whether it's a child or
an adult, but especially needs,you know child of theirs, and
that they've been told byprofessionals and various types
of professionals accountants,financial advisors, attorneys or
(41:17):
whatever that they must eitherdisinherit that child or they
must just leave the money tosomebody else and hope that
they'll use that appropriatelyand that that person won't have
any other intervening issues.
And it's just not the answer.
And it's a shame that that'sadvice that goes around through
professional communities becauseit is not that hard.
(41:41):
In fact there's so much.
The cost and the effortassociated with setting this up
properly is much less than thecost and the effort associated
with fixing it once theinevitable problem happens.
And that is one of the thingsthat I hear occasionally from
parents that say oh, they'rereally well set, they've got a
(42:02):
group home, they've got theirdisability, they've got their
social security.
The question I always askparents in that case are how
often do you buy them clothes,how often do you get a
McDonald's, how often are yougoing by and driving them to the
doctor, and how often are youdoing?
Oh, you know, three times aweek, seven times a week,
whatever it is, and they don'trealize that they're
(42:23):
supplementing it with their ownlife and their own money.
They're supplementing andyou're not going to be here
anymore to take care of them anddo all these things that you've
been doing and buying themjeans and buying them shoes and
all those types of things.
So, and it's just not that harduh, comparative to the, the um,
the, the possible negatives, toactually spend the time and
(42:46):
effort uh to, to set this upproperly.
Attorney Bob Mannor (42:50):
So what I hear you saying is that families
discount the value of their ownefforts and contribution, and I
could not support that more.
I think that that is 100%accurate.
And you think about you knowthe parent who works and gets
paid a salary, and the value ofthe caregiver at home.
(43:10):
100%, what would it cost toreplace those services?
And that's what we look at andwe try and quantify that by you
know insurance.
So if you're a young family andyou're looking at this, please
look into permanent insurance.
Please look at making sure thatyou have adequate resources if
something happens to one of youor both of you and this is where
(43:33):
, if you have a special needschild, a lot of times parents
will let life insurance lapse orfall off as we age and get
older, because it's not.
You know, that's something thatwe naturally do.
We don't necessarily need afterwe reach retirement age, but if
you have a special needs child,that's something that need
never goes away, and we don'tknow what will happen with
(43:59):
social security 20 years fromnow.
We don't know what will happenwith Medicaid and a Medicaid
budget or the cost of healthcare.
All that we know is that itwill cost more.
Whatever you can buy today, itwill take more money to buy that
same thing in the future.
And so how do we protect that?
And life insurance is a hugeand I don't get commissions for
saying I don't sell financialproducts but key component, a
(44:23):
key tool that we use.
That you know, as parents age,it becomes you know,
unfortunately, as we're youngfamilies, you know you get term
insurance right Because it'sinexpensive and you get the most
that you can qualify forbecomes.
You know, unfortunately, aswe're young families, you know
you get term insurance rightCause it's inexpensive and you
get the most that you canqualify for.
And you know you and I are asimilar age and this is about
when diagnosis happens Like youcould have a cancer scare, you
could have something else thatcomes up in your, in your
(44:45):
medical history that makes lifeinsurance really unaffordable.
And so, um, I used to do a lotmore elder law really
unaffordable, and so I used todo a lot more elder law, which I
now give over to you andcollaborate with your firm on,
but protecting your estatethrough life insurance or
long-term disability planning orlong-term care products.
Those are not the people thatcome to us for planning and
(45:06):
crisis planning.
It's completely, you know,starting from stage one is like,
okay, what's the legalframework?
And two, where are we at today?
What are we struggling with?
And anything that you arestruggling with as a family is
something that are you going topass along that struggle to
whoever's going to oversee thecare of your loved one?
(45:27):
So anything that's a.
Those are moving targets and thelevels of frustration change,
you know, from handling a ordealing with a toddler or a
newly diagnosed child all theway up through teenage years,
which can be particularlychallenging to young adult, to
fully fledged adult.
(45:48):
Challenges don't go away, theyjust change, and so how we
attack those things and createlong-term goals are a big deal.
So, moving to mastery, just ifyou've heard the words memo of
intent, those are theinstructions that you leave for
family or they might beprofessionals as to what your
(46:10):
family values are.
It's not just you know a listof doctors and diagnoses, it's
also like your values and wishesand hopes and dreams, and what
works and what doesn't work, allin a hopefully a legal document
, and so there's a free virtualworkshop available.
That, whether, if you're aconsumer, it's available free
for you.
And so there's a free virtualworkshop available that, whether
, if you're a consumer, it'savailable free for you If you
(46:32):
are a professional and you'relike oh, I'd like to be able to
have, you know, give some ideasand framework to my clients on
how they should create one orwhat they need to start with
Creating.
That memo of intent isavailable for free.
On Moving to Mastery.
Attorney Michele Fuller (46:48):
So repeat that web address again
movingtomasterycom or org.
Attorney Bob (46:53):
Movingtomasterycom com.
Attorney Michele Fuller (46:55):
Okay, movingtomasterycom has some
great resources and, as Michellejust kind of outlined there,
you actually bring up exactlythe next question that I wanted
to address, because a lot of ourlisteners are professionals
that work with seniors and a lotof them aren't sure how to
address this.
If they know that they areworking with someone that has a
(47:18):
special needs child, that's ondisability, on social security,
ssi, let's say, a social workeror a financial advisor or an
attorney, do you have any advicefor them about approaching
these topics with families andhelping them realize that they
might need to get some specificadvice rather than, you know,
just in crisis mode, if somebodyis in a crisis mode, they're
(47:40):
not going to be able tonecessarily be in a frame of
mind where they can plan for thefuture or think that they can.
Attorney Bob Mannor (47:59):
So one of the things that I would
recommend is that you and Ibelong to Atticus right, and so
this is part of Atticus trainingthat you and I have learned
about engaging your thinkingbrain, not your emotional brain.
So one of the things asprofessionals, if families are
in crisis, is have them dosomething like make a list, have
(48:23):
them write something out sothat, or if you yourself are
struggling with something, thebest thing that you can do if
you're in kind of like anemotional crisis, one of the
things you do is just startmaking a list that engages a
different part of your brain andstarts you thinking instead of
just reacting.
And so, as a professional, whenyou see somebody struggling,
getting them to engage that partof their brain and giving them
(48:46):
some real resources, like, okay,I'm going to set you up with a
professional with an assessment.
This is the professional thatcan help get you over this,
either through crisis or to thenext stage of their plan.
Some of the things that we talkabout with families are like you
know what is your biggestconcern, and it might be.
You just meet the families withwhere they're at and they will
(49:09):
let you know what they'restruggling with.
And these plans can take years.
And they do take years becauseyou know, for instance, housing
is a huge deal.
Is the vision independence, oris it within the family home?
And so we talked a lot todayabout mistakes, and so what I
(49:33):
want to talk about, or at leastmention, is that the family
should have you know, we havefire drills.
They should have a fire drillfor what happens if something
happens to them.
Who is on deck, especially ifyour child has severe
disabilities and cannot advocatefor themselves.
(49:55):
In other words they can't tellyou if they're in pain, they
can't tell you if they're hungry, they can't tell you if they're
hurting or communicateeffectively.
That's one of the things thatwe see with kids with autism and
other types of disorders isthat can they tell you when they
need something or will theyjust kind of keep it to
themselves?
And so you need a fire drill sothat if something happens to
(50:17):
you, who's on deck?
What happens?
Where do they stay and test it?
And it might be like wait whatyou mean?
I have to.
We have to go out for dinner.
Yes, you have to go out fordinner.
And how many alarms are setting, right?
So we talk about this in abusiness sense.
All the time, you test yourprocesses and procedures by
(50:40):
going on vacation, right?
So we talked a lot about, youknow, taking time off and all of
that.
A family with special needsmust do the same thing, where
they must test their processesand test their own assumptions.
And this is something that canbe very challenging for families
.
Sometimes, families assume thatthe best thing for their child
(51:01):
is to remain protected in thehome, and so then what happens
when you're not there?
Attorney Michele Fuller (51:07):
Right.
Attorney Bob Mannor (51:07):
Because someday you won't be.
Attorney Michele Fuller (51:10):
And we don't know when that's going to
be.
No, you're, you won't be, andwe don't know when that's going
to be.
No, you're going to appreciatethis.
We're talking about Atticus andemotional thinking versus.
You know, thinking thingsthrough at a different level and
my kids get very tired of mediscussing with them and
lecturing them about theamygdala versus the prefrontal
(51:32):
cortex in the brain, and youknow I'll ask them these
questions because I've said itso many times Are you speaking
out of your amygdala right now,or are you speaking out of your
prefrontal cortex?
And they don't like it verymuch.
They roll their eyes, but Ithought you'd appreciate that.
Attorney Bob Mannor (51:47):
That's a lot of eye rolling, right?
Yes.
Attorney Michele Fuller (51:50):
Well, Michelle, this has been great
and I really appreciate all ofthe knowledge that you're able
to share with us.
What is the best way to get ahold of you and your firm if
folks want further contact withyou?
Attorney Bob Mannor (52:04):
I would love that.
So one is if you already knowme, please do an email
introduction.
I would love that.
Introduce me.
Shoot over an email with theperson's contact information and
saying hey, this is a greatperson for you to collaborate
with.
I'd really like you to meetthem and I think that they're
the person to help you.
If you don't know me or you justwant to check out my website,
(52:25):
there's a website form that tofill out for a quick intake and
say look, what is the biggestproblem that you're confronting?
What can we help you with?
What is the question that youneed answered?
That's the most important thingfor you today, and then it goes
from there.
Then we have a whole processabout how to get involved with
our law firm, but also advocacy.
(52:46):
Sntorg is the advocacy website.
It's being tweaked and upgraded, and so in the next month or so
, you're going to see moreinformation about that.
Then, also, moving to masteryis a great resource and, as I
said, disability 101, check thatout for additional resources in
your state, wherever that mightbe, and thank you so much for
(53:07):
having me.
It's always good to talk withyou, Bob.
Well, thanks, Michele, andthose are all great resources
it's always good to talk withyou, Bob.
Attorney Michele Fuller (53:11):
Well, thanks, Michele, and those are
all great resources.
It's just a wealth of resourceswhen you just go through that
so simply.
And there was so much contentin those websites that you just
mentioned.
So I encourage everybody tocheck those out, even if you're
just curious and you just wannaget better background
information.
So I hope you enjoyed thispodcast.
(53:34):
Remember that you can hear uson Advice From your Advocates on
any of the podcast locationswe're pretty much everywhere and
don't forget to subscribe toAdvice From your Advocates so
that you know when we have a newtopic or a new guest and then
you can pick and choose whichones you want to listen to.
(53:55):
And you can also find it at ourwebsite, which is
mannorlawgroup.
com, and then there is a podcastpage there.
So appreciate everybody that'slistening and don't forget to
subscribe.
Attorney Bob Mannor (54:18):
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, visitmannorlawgroup.
com.
You're listening to Advice from your
Advocates, a show where weprovide elder law advice to
professionals who work with theelderly and their families.
Attorney Michele Fuller (00:10):
Welcome back to Advice from your
Advocates.
I'm Bob Mannor.
I'm a certified elder lawattorney in Michigan and we have
a special focus in our lawpractice on families that have a
loved one with dementia.
Today we're going to be talkingto one of my favorite attorneys
, and that's Michele Fuller.
Michele, welcome.
Attorney Bob Mannor (00:29):
Thank you so much for having me, Bob.
Attorney Michele Fuller (00:31):
So Michele is a friend of mine and
one of the well certainly a topattorney in the country when it
comes to special needs planning.
In fact, parents Magazine hasdeclared her to be a top special
needs attorney for the entirecountry, and they're not the
only ones that have realized howspecial Michele is.
(00:54):
In fact, the state of Michiganand the governor, has appointed
Michele as a special attorneygeneral.
Now, for those of you inMichigan, you certainly know
about this, but even if you'reoutside of Michigan, you've
probably heard of the Flintwater crisis, where there was a
lot of people, and especiallychildren, that were exposed to
(01:16):
some chemicals or lead.
I think.
Was it lead, Michele?
Attorney Bob Mannor (01:19):
Yes, lead poisoning.
Attorney Michele Fuller (01:20):
In their drinking water, and so, of
course, there were somesettlements based on this and
they needed to figure out how tomanage those settlements.
And so they scoured the stateand they said who could be
capable of this?
And they figured out thatMichele was very capable of it.
So she's a very special person,a very special attorney.
Michele, tell us a little bitabout your practice.
Attorney Bob Mannor (01:41):
Well, thanks, bob.
It's always a delight to workwith you on anything, and so I
really wanted to thank you forallowing me to participate in
this really awesome podcast.
And so my practice is reallywith a focus on special needs
planning, and I've been doingthat since I was a baby lawyer
working for Patricia Patterson,my favorite professor at
(02:01):
University of Detroit Law School, so I've been doing it ever
since and that is really thefocus of my practice, and I also
have a child with special needs, and so that helps to drive my
passion.
That already existed, but thatis really the focus of my part
of the practice, and I know thatyou and I collaborate quite a
bit, and the other part of whatI do is I administer special
(02:24):
needs trust through a nonprofitthat I established in 2005
called Advocacy, and so that hasa little bit of history, and
you and I kind of talked aboutthis.
You know to prepare for this,and the purpose of that is
basically to fulfill the promisethat we make to clients when
we're doing planning and whatthat looks like, and so, as a
(02:45):
planner, we get involved increating the legal structure,
and the biggest concern thatparents have any parent has is
what's going to happen after I'mgone?
Who's going to watch over mychild and make sure that things
are being done properly, thatthey have everything that they
need and they're not justsubsistence but they're actually
thriving?
And so, to be fair, I just tooka look around and I was like I
(03:09):
just don't like what I see, andso that's where it all started
and that's where my career haskind of flourished in that area.
Attorney Michele Fuller (03:19):
You know, it's really interesting
the way you talk about that,michelle, because it's so true
and a lot of folks they think oflawyers as documents or they
think of them as transactional.
And a lot of lawyers think ofit that way they want to do the
documents, they want to get theclient in, do the work, get a
check and then be done with it.
(03:40):
And both you and I have acompletely different perspective
, that this is about producingresults for the families,
helping the families throughthese situations, through these
crises, and that is not aone-time event, it's not a
transactional event.
So I'm glad that you broughtthat up because it really is a
kind of a distinction betweenyour practice and my practice
(04:03):
and a lot of what people imaginefor lawyers and what a lot of
what lawyers think of themselvesis it's just a transaction and
then we're done with it.
Families aren't a transaction.
Families go on, life goes onand things change and they need
to have the assistance andadvocacy I like the name of the
company advocacy through therest of their lives sometimes.
Attorney Bob Mannor (04:26):
Exactly, and I think that's where one of
the reasons that you and I getalong so well is that we have a
similar value, which is that youknow you can treat estate
planning, or planning thatfamilies need, as a transaction,
like you said, and the idea isyou know, you just call us when
you need us, but the familiesdon't know when they need us.
They need to maintain an estateplan, and it might be a little
(04:47):
surprising, right?
You might have to, as familiesare listening to this.
You might have, if you have one.
You might have to blow the dustoff of the binder that's
sitting on a shelf somewhere,and that's fine, unless there's
never, you know, no changes inthe law, there's no changes in
your family or no changes inwhat you own, and that doesn't
apply to anyone that I know.
(05:14):
Relationships change, yourassets change, how you think
about things, change and makingsure that things go smoothly,
and the best way to do that isto have a relationship with your
planning attorney, and so Iknow that your focus on elder
law is usually driven by crisisright, and that's where you
excel, for sure, and so this iswhere you know this isn't just
we don't want a crisis, is aboutcrisis prevention, and so
(05:36):
having a legally sufficientframework is just a starting
point, and so that's one of thethings with elder law and
special needs planning that it'snot just about creating a
sufficient legal document, it'sabout the resources.
And where are you at today?
Okay, assessing where there'sgaps, where there's frustrations
(05:59):
, predicting the future right,because there's hoping, and then
there's planning.
Attorney Michele Fuller (06:06):
Right.
Attorney Bob Mannor (06:06):
Drives you toward whatever that goal might
be, and it might be hard.
You have a special needs childthat's young.
You don't know where they'regoing to end up.
My daughter, for instance, Imean she's fantastic and she's
living independently inCalifornia.
If you had talked to me whenshe was five, there's no way I
could have predicted that shewould be where she's at today,
(06:27):
and so this is where thatrelationship is really important
.
And families don't know.
They don't know what they don'tknow.
So finding an elder lawattorney and finding a special
needs planning attorney first,they don't even know what to
call it.
So that's the first thing.
But a lot of estate plannerswill say that they do them.
(06:48):
So one of the questions forbeing a good consumer as a
family what do you look to?
How many do they do a year, oris it less than 10?
How do they keep up withchanges in the law and how many
of they defended right, whatadditional resources they can
(07:10):
bring to the table.
And I know that's somethingthat you and I really have in
common, where it's that we bringthose additional resources in
to help eliminate frustrationsand give the client the services
that they need, where it maynot be within our office, but
it's about that collaboration tohave a complete plan, and so
that's just a good startingpoint as to what they look for,
(07:33):
what kind of questions to ask oftheir estate planner and
customization building in thatframework.
Attorney Michele Fuller (07:40):
You said a couple things that I want
to highlight there because Ithought they were really
interesting.
One was the idea of that thefamilies don't know what they
don't know.
To be honest, they can't know.
It would be shocking if afamily knew all the things they
needed to know to deal with thelaw and Social Security and
(08:01):
insurance and Medicare and allof the different programs that
are out there and dealing withthe healthcare system, dealing
with the, you know, hopefullyavoiding the court system.
You know all those things Idon't know in both of our
practices with special needs andwith elder law.
I don't know that most lawyerscould maneuver the maze that is
(08:25):
created for both of thesepractices.
Attorney Bob Mannor (08:28):
I agree.
I mean, if I ran across aclient that could do that, I
would hire them.
Attorney Michele Fuller (08:32):
Yes, exactly Exactly.
The other thing you said that Ithought was really important to
highlight was defending thework, and that's something that
we both are comfortable doing,and a lot of lawyers are happy
to do the planning, but they'reworried about it or they won't
defend it.
In other words, if it getschallenged by Social Security,
(08:53):
if it gets challenged by theDepartment of Health and Human
Services and they say thatsomething is wrong or that they
don't like the wording ofsomething, that you have and I
have the capacity to defend ourwork and pursue it through the
appropriate appellate process,and that, I think, is a huge
advantage for our clients.
Attorney Bob Mannor (09:13):
Absolutely, and I think that that's where
we, in my practice and in yours,get referrals from other
professionals that maybe havedrafted a trust but they've run
into a problem, from otherprofessionals that maybe have
drafted a trust but they've runinto a problem.
And so, as a consumer or as apotential client, I think that's
an important question to ask.
Is that how many?
Not if, but well, maybe that'swhere you start is have you
(09:35):
defended a special needs trustin front of either DHS or social
security and, if so, what'syour win rate?
Right, that's a big deal.
So I think that it does take aspecial skill set.
And if you run into a referralwhere I do get some of those
referrals from other attorneyswhere they're like there's a
(09:57):
problem here and we need to getthis fixed One is that assessing
the problem appropriately.
Is this something that'sfixable or what's the end game?
So what is the client'sobjective and what's the
quickest, most efficient,cost-effective way to get there?
And it may not be pursuing anappeal, it might be just fixing
(10:17):
the problem, and so sometimesit's just putting that choice in
front of the client what areyou giving up by going with
choice A versus choice B, andwhat is the cost, and so usually
you know, and then what's yourrecommendation?
So it's just like anyprofession.
You know, if you think aboutthis in a medical sense, if you
have cancer you don't go to yourgeneral practitioner.
(10:39):
You go to them when you have acold or a stomach ache or I've
got a sinus infection, but ifyou have a heart condition,
you're going to go to acardiologist, right, and so it's
the same thing you want to goto a specialist.
If you have a child that's gotchallenges, and it's just not.
It's not limited to thatclassic.
You know, child in a wheelchairor something like that.
(11:01):
It's where you think of atypical diagnosis.
It could be someone who'sstruggling, where they're.
Just you know how many kids didwe go to school with that?
They didn't get properlydiagnosed.
You see the effect of whatthey've been struggling with,
but not the underlying cause,and so you could see it.
Where you've got multiplefailed marriages, and so you
(11:24):
could see it.
Where you've got multiplefailed marriages, where you've
got money issues, addictionissues, mental health struggles,
and so it's not just theclassic.
You know, child lockdownsyndrome, it's a spectrum Right.
Have a child that you'reconcerned with and with their
ability to manage money, wherethey need that additional
(11:46):
support and framework, then thatalso is a special need that
gets under that umbrella as well.
So do they need additionalprotection?
Are you concerned about it?
Then that's something thatshould be consulted about.
Attorney Michele Fuller (11:59):
I think that's an excellent point,
michelle, that really, when it'sparents talking about how we're
going to leave our money to ourchildren, it doesn't have to be
a government defined disabilityright.
There are times where we dowant, you know, we might want an
entity like Advocacy Inc tohelp manage that money.
(12:22):
You know money and inheritancecan hurt somebody.
I know that we never.
We hardly.
Most people don't think aboutit that way, but if somebody's
having addiction issues orthey're having other issues or
marital issues and we throw abunch of money at them, it can
make their life a lot worse thanif it's managed properly, if
they're getting the moneythrough an appropriate
(12:43):
management of that money.
And so that's not necessarily adefined disability according to
the government, but it issomething that parents might
want to think about from thestandpoint of saying, okay, we
worked really hard for thismoney, maybe we got it from our
parents, things like that.
But whatever it is, we want tomake sure that this is made for
(13:04):
good use and it's not actuallygoing to harm our children.
Attorney Bob Mannor (13:08):
Absolutely, and that's where the choice of
trustee is huge.
So typically when I draft, youknow there's different
perspectives on this.
There's not one way to dothings, certainly, especially
when it comes to drafting.
But in other words, what do thewords look like, what is our
governing instrument, what isour contract and the rules that
(13:31):
we're creating in this documentthat we call a trust?
And so typically what I like todo is balance a professional
trustee with a role for familyto be like a super trustee.
They make sure that the trusteeis doing their job, but they're
not responsible for day-to-dayactivities.
So most of the time when we'rethinking about trust and who we
nominate as trustee now, this isfor any kind of trust, right,
(13:56):
but most importantly, a specialneeds trust where the trust is
designed to really be createdand act for life, not just pay
it out over a certain period oftime.
Think about that child.
Most of the time, people arewho are they nominating?
They're nominating an adultchild, like the responsible
child, right, which is typicallyyou or me or someone like us, a
(14:21):
busy professional, and so arethey going to have the time to
do?
It is first, first and foremost, and the answer is probably not
.
Secondly, um, you know they'rethe ones who now, instead of
just having a brother or sisterrelationship, now they're the
money manager, they're what'sstanding between their sibling
(14:43):
and a trustee, or in their money, and so do you want them having
to take the calls and make harddecisions?
And so it's usually better inthose circumstances to have an
independent trustee who'sdoesn't have, um, you know,
decades of emotional, you know,sibling issues, parent issues
(15:06):
Not every family is.
You know the Brady family was ablended family right, and they
didn't talk about ex-spousesever on the Brady family, or
former or widows or any of thatfamily, additional family
structures, and you know it'snot unusual to have blended
families.
And so those are just layers ofcomplications that sometimes
(15:27):
can be better handled whenyou've got an independent
trustee where they're makingthose decisions and handling
day-to-day types ofadministration, government
entities and policies thatchange every quarter or are
updated quite frequently, like,for instance, on SSI, social
(15:50):
security just eliminated food asan issue, oh, my goodness.
Yeah, that's a huge deal.
It's being completely, you know, it's being phased in and
implemented as of September, sothat changes and impacts
directly impacts the lives ofpeople who are on SSI benefits.
How does a family trusteenavigate that and manage that
(16:12):
and make sure that they'restaying up to date on all of
that on top of everything elsethat they already have to do
during their lives manage theircareer, their own family?
Attorney Michele Fuller (16:21):
they just have no shot and so it's
very difficult michelle, Iwanted to address that too,
because you know part of thatpeople don't always like to
think about this part of it, butit's also the money management
meaning uh, growing the moneypotentially, and so we're
sometimes expecting someone nowthat to not only be an expert at
(16:45):
government policy, know all ofthe changes that might occur on
any given day with regard toSocial Security, medicare,
medicaid insurance, health care,decision making, all of these
things.
But now they have to be afinancial expert too, otherwise,
you know, sometimes we talkabout, oh okay, the cost of a
professional trustee.
It's often going to be the costis the cost that's lost by not
(17:13):
getting good money managementand making sure that the money
has an opportunity to growproperly, rather than relying on
your child to be an expert atso many different fields,
including all of the financialand tax issues that come up with
regard to these issues.
Attorney Bob Mannor (17:29):
Exactly, and that's where I don't do that
.
Personally, I can't doeverything Right, but that's
where we have money managers forprofessionals, so you do do it
because you manage the peoplethat have that expertise.
Attorney Michele Fuller (17:43):
I want to be clear.
That's one of the things Ireally appreciate about the
services that you offer.
You have all of these strategicpartners so that you have the
experts for any field that weneed.
Attorney Bob Mannor (17:54):
Absolutely, and that's where you know.
I think that's one of thehallmarks of, I think, a good
lawyer is that you know yourlane and you don't have to have
the answer for everything, youjust have to know how to get the
answer.
And that's where you've gotlike you mentioned strategic
partnerships, so that you've gotso having a certified financial
advisor that has a fiduciaryresponsibility.
(18:17):
So let's talk about that.
I think you and I have probablyseen the commercial for Fisher
Investments that just has stuckwith me as being a fiduciary and
what that means.
And that means that you have toalways act in the other
person's best interest, andwhether you're acting as a power
of attorney for somebody, youhave a fiduciary duty.
(18:38):
That means that you must act intheir best interest, not your
own personal interest.
Whether that's comminglingfunds, you cannot do that.
You can't sell property thatbenefits you and doesn't act in
the best interests of yourclient or whoever you're acting
on their behalf.
So fiduciary roles are superimportant.
(18:59):
And you may not realize thatwhen you are appointed to act in
that capacity in other words,you're acting as someone's agent
under a power of attorney, or apersonal representative of
their estate or a trustee thatis your duty, not as a brother
or a sister.
You must act in that person'sbest interest, and that goes for
(19:21):
financial advisors.
They must have a fiduciary duty.
I don't like working with onesthat do not, because there's no
obligation then they don't haveto match.
It gives them license then toact in their own best interest,
which you know, that's not whatwe do every day.
We have a duty to our clients,and so part of that is making
(19:43):
sure that we have good referralpartners, and so one of the
things that I know is thatfamilies will have a, you know,
they'll have a relationship witha financial advisor and as part
of business management, part ofwhat we do is just an
independent assessment Are theyreally, are they the right fit
for the entire bucket ofwhatever we're supposed to be
(20:06):
managing?
And so sometimes we'll have itreviewed and we're like, you
know, by someone else who'sindependent and go oh yeah,
they're doing a great job,wonderful.
Then, of course, our firstobjective is just to keep that
team in place.
If they're a known, trustedpart of the decision making that
a family has assembled, that'sgreat.
But what if they're a known, uh, trusted part of the
decision-making that a familyhas assembled, that's, that's
(20:27):
great.
But what if they're not great?
Or maybe they're not great forthat purpose?
So planning for someone'sretirement is different than
managing a lifelong specialneeds trust.
Um and so we tend to work withfiduciaries or financial
advisors that that is their bookof business, that they are
familiar with it, particularlyif we're looking at court
(20:47):
supervised trusts.
We want to make sure that themoney lasts, that the objective
and the goals of the client are,first and foremost, not meaning
mom and dad at that point, butthe beneficiary of that trust,
and so we review these all thetime.
We meet with people like howmany financial advisors do you
(21:08):
work with where, once they havethe money under management, you
never really hear from themagain?
Right, it's just like you knowthere's lawyer jokes about.
You know you can't Rightthere's tons but there's.
You know we know greatprofessionals that have an
excellent commitment to service,that have an excellent
commitment to service, and soyou know I like how you're
talking about collaboration.
Attorney Michele Fuller (21:29):
I do want to clarify some of our
early conversation about thelawyers that we work with, and
one of the things I really likeabout our practice both your
practice area and mine is thatit tends to be very
collaborative, and that's someareas of law tend to be very
cutthroat and that you don't youknow you don't want to help
(21:51):
each other, and that's not beenmy experience in special needs
planning and elder law that thebar, the people that take this
work seriously, tend to worktogether.
They tend to share information.
We tend to look at it as wehave a common goal and we're all
moving towards that common goal, and I think that's important
(22:13):
to acknowledge that you knowwell.
There's certain elder lawissues that I'm going to
probably either seek counselfrom someone else or I might
refer it out.
That is one of those thingswhere we tend to as a bar group,
as a lawyer group, tend to bevery collaborative and
(22:35):
cooperative as opposed tocompetitive.
Attorney Bob Mannor (22:38):
I agree.
I mean, both of us are theformer chairs of the Elder Law
and Disability Rights section ofthe state Bar, and so we've had
the benefit of thatcollaboration and you and I
personally collaborate withclients, and because we just
look at things differently,where we're really looking out
for the client's best interest,and if there's a resource I have
(23:00):
, whether it's a case managementor financial advisor, any kind
of resource that I have thatwill help you with your client
we'll share that information andwe have specialty list serves
and all kinds of stuff that thatwe do to make sure that we do
that.
So you're right, I think thatour area of practice is pretty
special in that regard is andplus we're lucky, our colleagues
(23:20):
are fantastic.
Attorney Michele Fuller (23:21):
So I'll share with.
I'll share with our listenersthat one of my one of the
reasons why I appreciated youbeing chair of our section of
the bar before me was youcleaned it up and so you ran a
tight ship.
It was the meetings used to goon forever.
When you took over, you madesure that we were effective and
efficient and we had committeesand the work was done
(23:43):
efficiently.
And then I got to take over, soyou cleaned it up before I had
to get involved.
Attorney Bob Mannor (23:49):
And I appreciate that.
I just got Maria's her reportsand the notes from last time and
I could see that some of thestructure that was put in place
about the committee reports andall of that was it was.
I think that's how you knowyou've done a really good job
when it stands the test of time.
Attorney Michele Fuller (24:06):
That's it Exactly right.
I think most of the reforms andchanges that you created
definitely continued after youwere no longer chair, because we
all saw the value and benefitof that.
I do want to take a minute andtake a step back, because I
think well, because I think well.
Parents with special needschildren often get their own
(24:28):
education on law and advocacy,especially when they start going
to the schools and they havetheir IEP meetings and things
like that, so they startbecoming educated pretty early
on.
But I want to you know, a lotof the listeners for this
(24:49):
podcast are going to be otherprofessionals, social workers,
maybe even financial advisorsand attorneys, and so I want to
go back and take a sort ofone-on-one or one-on-one
approach on this.
So let's just start withexplaining what special needs
planning is and why it'simportant for families with
loved ones with special needs.
Attorney Bob Mannor (25:07):
I think that what makes it different, or
what's different about it, isthat part of it is my approach.
It's got to be a right fit.
So for you, as a professionalor a planner, are you the right
fit for this family?
So?
if a family comes to you andthey have a recent diagnosis,
(25:29):
that's particularly challengingdesigning a plan that will help
alleviate their concerns, whichis usually worst case scenario,
like they're away for a weekendand something horrible happens,
that their children are takencare of.
So one of the tools that I canrecommend for planners,
(25:51):
professionals or even familiesthat are just getting into this
and exploring like, oh, what dowe need?
We don't even know what we need.
One is that I know, as you wellknow, I took a note out of your
book, right, and we do what'scalled the Great Lakes Special
Needs Planning Symposium.
Attorney Michele Fuller (26:08):
Yeah, which is great, by the way.
Attorney Bob Mannor (26:10):
Thank you.
And so you can look forresources and past recordings of
sessions on movingtomasterycom.
And so there are some freethings on there for consumers,
but also for professionals whoare really looking for a deeper
dive, and I do have familiesthat go to that as well, that
want to really dig in and knowsome of the intricacies of, for
(26:33):
instance, public benefits.
Right, there's 90 minutes deepdive on SSI and social security
and how that works.
There's a great drafting 101for professionals, but sometimes
families want to know what toexpect and what they should
expect from an attorney.
So that's a really goodfoundational way to start.
The other is Disability 101.
(26:57):
Disability 101 is a nationalwebsite and you can do a state
by state search and it will listall of the resources for a
special needs family in thatstate.
And so you know people don'talways stay in one state, so if
you have a transfer or you'regoing through a change in your
family of any kind which mayrequire a relocation, how do you
(27:18):
know?
You might know what you've got,where you're at, but how do you
know what's ahead?
And that is a really good placeto start Like, oh, what's
available in Florida, what'savailable in this part of
Florida or California, which is,like to me, the gold standard
of what's available for publicbenefits for people with
developmental disabilities.
And so that's where a goodplanner and the value of and one
(27:42):
of the other things that I knowthat you and I are both
involved in nationalorganizations, and when you're
dealing with federal benefits, Ithink it is super helpful to be
part of a national organizationbecause it helps you really
collaborate with otherprofessionals in other parts of
the country and at least besomewhat aware of how things are
(28:04):
different from where you sitnormally, and so that is super
helpful.
But as a starting point, a goodspecial needs planning attorney
will not just create a specialneeds trust that fits where your
family is at today, but willalso bring in additional
resources.
Like an IEP advocate right,because you don't know what, you
(28:28):
don't know what's next.
What are some critical agesthat are up ahead and key
turning points?
So one is really where there'san initial diagnosis.
One is where the child is nowbecoming a legal adult at age 18
, or if they continue in school,like for Michigan, we are the
(28:50):
only state in the country thateducates up to age 26.
Most other states end at age 21.
And that's extraordinary, andso that's another key planning
point is what happens afterschool is done.
Key planning point is when whathappens after school is done,
(29:11):
and so and putting thingstogether with other resources.
Like we have a fantastic ARCfor us, lisa Lapine, who I know
you know that we went to lawschool together.
She is the director of ARC ofMacomb a fantastic and strong
ARC where they may not be asstrong in other parts of the
country.
And so, but collaborations andthat's where building in
resources are tremendous.
(29:31):
But from a special needsplanning standpoint, there are
some key things to look for, andone is are you using a pool
trust?
And for professionals attorneysit should be a tool in your
toolbox and for anybody whowants more information about how
(29:52):
and when to use a pool trust.
I've written articles aboutthis.
I'm happy to shoot some over toyou.
So there's one that I wrotespecifically on using a third
party pool trust.
Let me back up a little bit.
There's a basic question to askfirst.
Which is, whose money is it?
Who are we planning for?
Does the person with adisability have money today that
(30:13):
needs to be managed and itcould happen at any time?
Accident, injury or illness canhappen at any point in
someone's life.
So if they're getting moneyfrom a lawsuit and that's the
only money that they have, great, so we call that, when it
belongs to the individualthemselves, the money that we're
planning for.
(30:33):
That's a first-party specialneeds trust and it comes from
contract language party thefirst part versus party the
third part.
It's the person's money.
So first-party special needstrust.
If it's anyone else's money,like estate planning it's mom
and dad's money, it's grandmaand grandpa's money or
crowdfunded money.
If the money comes from someoneelse, anyone other than the
(30:57):
beneficiary, then we call thatthird party money and it
requires a third party specialneeds trust.
So whose money is it?
First party versus third party?
The other aspect is what kind oftrust?
Now, from a planning standpoint, I look at pooled trusts, which
means that it's administered bya nonprofit, that there's one
(31:21):
master trust agreement thatgoverns a certain type of
individual.
So most of the time we'relooking at someone with
disabilities that's beendiagnosed or we have a known
struggle, and so Spring HillHousing Corporation is the
nonprofit that I represent thathas state that really they can
act nationally but they reallyconcentrate more for Michigan
(31:44):
claimants or Michiganbeneficiaries and they have both
a first and a third partypooled special needs trust.
So, as a planner, what I lookat is are we looking at a family
with modest means Withespecially like, a young family
that is just starting out?
They don't want to pay $5,000to $10,000, $15,000 for an
(32:07):
estate plan?
Attorney Michele Fuller (32:08):
Right.
Attorney Bob Mannor (32:09):
Way more than they need.
They need something that'slegally, that's really effective
but economical.
And so for planners and socialworkers and anybody that is
listening to this really anyfamily of modest means they
should be looking at a pool,pool trust for a really quick
(32:29):
and simple and effective,cost-effective but incredibly
effective on the planning sidefor that family.
But when you're getting intomore assets life insurance,
blended families, anything likethat I really prefer a
standalone special needs trustthat means it's a custom drafted
trust that's tailored to thatgroup of people and where it's
(32:53):
really all the rules are aboutthem.
So some of the things I reallyjust don't like having a trust
with inter-trust so you'll haveprovisions with in revocable
living trust, and I personallydon't like that because I
administer these trusts.
It makes it infinitely harder.
Just from what do I name theaccount?
(33:14):
If you think about it, you gowell, who's?
Who is this about?
Who is this for?
What do I call it?
And then all the rules like howdo you change trustees?
Is the nominated trustee whoyou want to administer mom and
dad's trust?
You know, if you're mom and dadmaking the plan, is that who
you want to act as trustee forthe special needs person, and if
(33:38):
it's a trust within the trust,it doesn't allow the planner,
the lawyer, to really askquestions about that and create
a separate framework that'sdesigned to last for the life of
the individual, and so that'sjust a personal preference.
There's no wrong way to do it,but wouldn't you?
Attorney Michele Fuller (33:58):
agree that that's probably the most
common way.
I agree with you.
The standalone and we'll talk alittle bit more about this the
standalone trust, especially fora third-party trust, is going
to be much better for so manydifferent reasons, but wouldn't
you agree that probably the mostcommon thing that we see is
(34:19):
this being drafted as a trustwithin a trust, or even a trust
within a will as a trust?
Attorney Bob Mannor (34:24):
within a trust, or even a trust within a
will, a hundred percent.
I see that all the time andit's it's very difficult to
change, it's very difficult toreally.
You know, all the defaultprovisions, all the rules about
how that money is administered,is designed for who?
For the?
people creating the trust whichis mom and dad, and it doesn't
(34:46):
allow for flexibility.
So there's a difference betweenlegally sufficient meaning is
it going to protect the personfrom social security benefit
disruption?
But if that's our onlyobjective, then that's okay, I
guess.
But really the objective ismuch bigger.
It's about creating a good lifeand having a document that
(35:08):
doesn't require a probateproceeding to change and modify
as the person's needs change,and so I find that usually a
standalone trust, if it makessense for that family
financially is a worthwhileinvestment.
Financially is a worthwhileinvestment.
Attorney Michele Fuller (35:26):
I appreciate your descriptions of
the different types of trust Ithink that's so important and I
think most folks get realconfused about that and your
advocacy for pooled trust forthose with more modest, less
(35:48):
money to be protected.
The pooled trust is a greatoption.
It's managed by the rightpeople, by the people that are
caring for others in similarsituations.
It's just a great option.
But the standalone trust whenit's going to, when there's a
little bit more means there,when there's a little bit more
money there, one of the bigadvantages I think of the
standalone trust.
If you have a special needschild and you have a standalone
trust for that special needschild, then you can tell,
(36:11):
because one of the things thathappens so often is grandma and
grandpa are really trying to bereally nice and they leave
something for that special needschild or brother or sister or
aunt or uncle.
They are trying to be reallynice and they put their special
needs child the special needsniece or nephew or brother,
sister as a beneficiary of theirIRA.
(36:31):
Now we've got a big problem andso once you have that
standalone trust, you can telleverybody about that standalone
trust and you can say, hey, I'mnot saying that you should leave
anything to our child, but ifyou happen to do it through this
trust, each person doesn't haveto create their own standalone
trust.
We only need the one standalonetrust for that child and then
(36:53):
anybody can put the money intoit through inheritance, through
beneficiary designations, thingslike that.
And that's when I think is oneof the big advantages of that
standalone.
I guess you could do that withpooled trust too, but with the
standalone trust is that thenyou can instruct your parents,
you know the grandparents, youcan instruct the brothers and
(37:13):
sisters, the you know aunts anduncles.
Hey, if you even, if you'reeven, if you're going to leave
10 or 20 or $50,000 to them,make sure you do it this way
100%.
Attorney Bob Mannor (37:22):
I think that that's where well-meaning
family members will want to dothat, and it is very hard to do
if you do not have a standalone.
And that was an excellentillustration, an example of when
it would make sense to makethat investment, because it does
allow you to do that and inviteothers that will.
(37:43):
You know, you don't have to theletter.
We give a sample letter tofamilies and it's if you choose
to leave funds to our child,please do it this way.
Right, it's, it's supereffective that way.
And that's one of the biggestthings that I see missing is
that people don't they don'tnecessarily want to talk about
(38:04):
it, but that highlights some ofthe biggest mistakes that I see,
which is, instead of leavingfunds for a person with
disabilities, they will leave anextra share to someone else.
Or, worst case scenario, theyhave all their, they need, they
don't need any money and they'lljust cut them out entirely.
And of course, I'm not going to.
(38:25):
I don't love that, and the waypeople can think about it is
that you're leaving your mostvulnerable beneficiary, your
most vulnerable loved one, whocannot make money on their own,
even more vulnerable, and so,whether cutting them out
(38:48):
entirely or leaving an extrashare to somebody else.
There's no checks and balancesthere, so if they want to spend
something on their siblingusually it's a sibling they may
have the best of intentions, butmaybe the person that they're
married to is not 100% on boardwith that.
Attorney Michele Fuller (39:07):
Or they die.
Attorney Bob Mannor (39:08):
Or they die and there's no protection there
.
Nothing.
That or they die or they dieand there's no protection there
nothing.
And so, um, one of the worstexamples that I've seen of that
is where, um, a woman who had anumber of children, um, and
several of them, which this canrun in families, had a
particular diagnosis fragile xand so they all, through
(39:33):
fundraising in their community,very strong member of her
community was able to fundraiseand buy a house for those
children.
Well, she has a neurotypicalchild as well and as part of her
estate plan, she did a do ityourself deed or that house and
she passed away, and so theneurotypical child, the
(39:55):
responsible child, now ownedthat house that all their
siblings with disabilities livedin.
Well, what couldn't have beenpredicted is that child filed
for bankruptcy.
Attorney Michele Fuller (40:07):
Oh no.
Attorney Bob Mannor (40:08):
You can see where I'm headed there.
So I got a call from thebankruptcy attorney saying can
you help me, can you help here?
And the bankruptcy trustee.
They had no option but to goforward and liquidate that house
.
They were mandated to do so.
They couldn't afford, they werenot allowed to be compassionate
(40:30):
and say, oh my gosh, if we dothat, we're going to cause these
four people to have to go intoinstitution and they will no
longer be able to live together.
And so the only other optionwas to.
You know, they thankfullywithdrew their bankruptcy to
save the house, but that is thedire impact of what could happen
(40:53):
without proper planning,especially a do it yourself type
of plan.
Attorney Michele Fuller (40:57):
I think that's so important I want to
repeat it and I hear it all thetime too that folks will come in
and they've got a special needschild whether it's a child or
an adult, but especially needs,you know child of theirs, and
that they've been told byprofessionals and various types
of professionals accountants,financial advisors, attorneys or
(41:17):
whatever that they must eitherdisinherit that child or they
must just leave the money tosomebody else and hope that
they'll use that appropriatelyand that that person won't have
any other intervening issues.
And it's just not the answer.
And it's a shame that that'sadvice that goes around through
professional communities becauseit is not that hard.
(41:41):
In fact there's so much.
The cost and the effortassociated with setting this up
properly is much less than thecost and the effort associated
with fixing it once theinevitable problem happens.
And that is one of the thingsthat I hear occasionally from
parents that say oh, they'rereally well set, they've got a
(42:02):
group home, they've got theirdisability, they've got their
social security.
The question I always askparents in that case are how
often do you buy them clothes,how often do you get a
McDonald's, how often are yougoing by and driving them to the
doctor, and how often are youdoing?
Oh, you know, three times aweek, seven times a week,
whatever it is, and they don'trealize that they're
(42:23):
supplementing it with their ownlife and their own money.
They're supplementing andyou're not going to be here
anymore to take care of them anddo all these things that you've
been doing and buying themjeans and buying them shoes and
all those types of things.
So, and it's just not that harduh, comparative to the, the um,
the, the possible negatives, toactually spend the time and
(42:46):
effort uh to, to set this upproperly.
Attorney Bob Mannor (42:50):
So what I hear you saying is that families
discount the value of their ownefforts and contribution, and I
could not support that more.
I think that that is 100%accurate.
And you think about you knowthe parent who works and gets
paid a salary, and the value ofthe caregiver at home.
(43:10):
100%, what would it cost toreplace those services?
And that's what we look at andwe try and quantify that by you
know insurance.
So if you're a young family andyou're looking at this, please
look into permanent insurance.
Please look at making sure thatyou have adequate resources if
something happens to one of youor both of you and this is where
(43:33):
, if you have a special needschild, a lot of times parents
will let life insurance lapse orfall off as we age and get
older, because it's not.
You know, that's something thatwe naturally do.
We don't necessarily need afterwe reach retirement age, but if
you have a special needs child,that's something that need
never goes away, and we don'tknow what will happen with
(43:59):
social security 20 years fromnow.
We don't know what will happenwith Medicaid and a Medicaid
budget or the cost of healthcare.
All that we know is that itwill cost more.
Whatever you can buy today, itwill take more money to buy that
same thing in the future.
And so how do we protect that?
And life insurance is a hugeand I don't get commissions for
saying I don't sell financialproducts but key component, a
(44:23):
key tool that we use.
That you know, as parents age,it becomes you know,
unfortunately, as we're youngfamilies, you know you get term
insurance right Because it'sinexpensive and you get the most
that you can qualify forbecomes.
You know, unfortunately, aswe're young families, you know
you get term insurance rightCause it's inexpensive and you
get the most that you canqualify for.
And you know you and I are asimilar age and this is about
when diagnosis happens Like youcould have a cancer scare, you
could have something else thatcomes up in your, in your
(44:45):
medical history that makes lifeinsurance really unaffordable.
And so, um, I used to do a lotmore elder law really
unaffordable, and so I used todo a lot more elder law, which I
now give over to you andcollaborate with your firm on,
but protecting your estatethrough life insurance or
long-term disability planning orlong-term care products.
Those are not the people thatcome to us for planning and
(45:06):
crisis planning.
It's completely, you know,starting from stage one is like,
okay, what's the legalframework?
And two, where are we at today?
What are we struggling with?
And anything that you arestruggling with as a family is
something that are you going topass along that struggle to
whoever's going to oversee thecare of your loved one?
(45:27):
So anything that's a.
Those are moving targets and thelevels of frustration change,
you know, from handling a ordealing with a toddler or a
newly diagnosed child all theway up through teenage years,
which can be particularlychallenging to young adult, to
fully fledged adult.
(45:48):
Challenges don't go away, theyjust change, and so how we
attack those things and createlong-term goals are a big deal.
So, moving to mastery, just ifyou've heard the words memo of
intent, those are theinstructions that you leave for
family or they might beprofessionals as to what your
(46:10):
family values are.
It's not just you know a listof doctors and diagnoses, it's
also like your values and wishesand hopes and dreams, and what
works and what doesn't work, allin a hopefully a legal document
, and so there's a free virtualworkshop available.
That, whether, if you're aconsumer, it's available free
for you.
And so there's a free virtualworkshop available that, whether
, if you're a consumer, it'savailable free for you If you
(46:32):
are a professional and you'relike oh, I'd like to be able to
have, you know, give some ideasand framework to my clients on
how they should create one orwhat they need to start with
Creating.
That memo of intent isavailable for free.
On Moving to Mastery.
Attorney Michele Fuller (46:48):
So repeat that web address again
movingtomasterycom or org.
Attorney Bob (46:53):
Movingtomasterycom com.
Attorney Michele Fuller (46:55):
Okay, movingtomasterycom has some
great resources and, as Michellejust kind of outlined there,
you actually bring up exactlythe next question that I wanted
to address, because a lot of ourlisteners are professionals
that work with seniors and a lotof them aren't sure how to
address this.
If they know that they areworking with someone that has a
(47:18):
special needs child, that's ondisability, on social security,
ssi, let's say, a social workeror a financial advisor or an
attorney, do you have any advicefor them about approaching
these topics with families andhelping them realize that they
might need to get some specificadvice rather than, you know,
just in crisis mode, if somebodyis in a crisis mode, they're
(47:40):
not going to be able tonecessarily be in a frame of
mind where they can plan for thefuture or think that they can.
Attorney Bob Mannor (47:59):
So one of the things that I would
recommend is that you and Ibelong to Atticus right, and so
this is part of Atticus trainingthat you and I have learned
about engaging your thinkingbrain, not your emotional brain.
So one of the things asprofessionals, if families are
in crisis, is have them dosomething like make a list, have
(48:23):
them write something out sothat, or if you yourself are
struggling with something, thebest thing that you can do if
you're in kind of like anemotional crisis, one of the
things you do is just startmaking a list that engages a
different part of your brain andstarts you thinking instead of
just reacting.
And so, as a professional, whenyou see somebody struggling,
getting them to engage that partof their brain and giving them
(48:46):
some real resources, like, okay,I'm going to set you up with a
professional with an assessment.
This is the professional thatcan help get you over this,
either through crisis or to thenext stage of their plan.
Some of the things that we talkabout with families are like you
know what is your biggestconcern, and it might be.
You just meet the families withwhere they're at and they will
(49:09):
let you know what they'restruggling with.
And these plans can take years.
And they do take years becauseyou know, for instance, housing
is a huge deal.
Is the vision independence, oris it within the family home?
And so we talked a lot todayabout mistakes, and so what I
(49:33):
want to talk about, or at leastmention, is that the family
should have you know, we havefire drills.
They should have a fire drillfor what happens if something
happens to them.
Who is on deck, especially ifyour child has severe
disabilities and cannot advocatefor themselves.
(49:55):
In other words they can't tellyou if they're in pain, they
can't tell you if they're hungry, they can't tell you if they're
hurting or communicateeffectively.
That's one of the things thatwe see with kids with autism and
other types of disorders isthat can they tell you when they
need something or will theyjust kind of keep it to
themselves?
And so you need a fire drill sothat if something happens to
(50:17):
you, who's on deck?
What happens?
Where do they stay and test it?
And it might be like wait whatyou mean?
I have to.
We have to go out for dinner.
Yes, you have to go out fordinner.
And how many alarms are setting, right?
So we talk about this in abusiness sense.
All the time, you test yourprocesses and procedures by
(50:40):
going on vacation, right?
So we talked a lot about, youknow, taking time off and all of
that.
A family with special needsmust do the same thing, where
they must test their processesand test their own assumptions.
And this is something that canbe very challenging for families
.
Sometimes, families assume thatthe best thing for their child
(51:01):
is to remain protected in thehome, and so then what happens
when you're not there?
Attorney Michele Fuller (51:07):
Right.
Attorney Bob Mannor (51:07):
Because someday you won't be.
Attorney Michele Fuller (51:10):
And we don't know when that's going to
be.
No, you're, you won't be, andwe don't know when that's going
to be.
No, you're going to appreciatethis.
We're talking about Atticus andemotional thinking versus.
You know, thinking thingsthrough at a different level and
my kids get very tired of mediscussing with them and
lecturing them about theamygdala versus the prefrontal
(51:32):
cortex in the brain, and youknow I'll ask them these
questions because I've said itso many times Are you speaking
out of your amygdala right now,or are you speaking out of your
prefrontal cortex?
And they don't like it verymuch.
They roll their eyes, but Ithought you'd appreciate that.
Attorney Bob Mannor (51:47):
That's a lot of eye rolling, right?
Yes.
Attorney Michele Fuller (51:50):
Well, Michelle, this has been great
and I really appreciate all ofthe knowledge that you're able
to share with us.
What is the best way to get ahold of you and your firm if
folks want further contact withyou?
Attorney Bob Mannor (52:04):
I would love that.
So one is if you already knowme, please do an email
introduction.
I would love that.
Introduce me.
Shoot over an email with theperson's contact information and
saying hey, this is a greatperson for you to collaborate
with.
I'd really like you to meetthem and I think that they're
the person to help you.
If you don't know me or you justwant to check out my website,
(52:25):
there's a website form that tofill out for a quick intake and
say look, what is the biggestproblem that you're confronting?
What can we help you with?
What is the question that youneed answered?
That's the most important thingfor you today, and then it goes
from there.
Then we have a whole processabout how to get involved with
our law firm, but also advocacy.
(52:46):
Sntorg is the advocacy website.
It's being tweaked and upgraded, and so in the next month or so
, you're going to see moreinformation about that.
Then, also, moving to masteryis a great resource and, as I
said, disability 101, check thatout for additional resources in
your state, wherever that mightbe, and thank you so much for
(53:07):
having me.
It's always good to talk withyou, Bob.
Well, thanks, Michele, andthose are all great resources
it's always good to talk withyou, Bob.
Attorney Michele Fuller (53:11):
Well, thanks, Michele, and those are
all great resources.
It's just a wealth of resourceswhen you just go through that
so simply.
And there was so much contentin those websites that you just
mentioned.
So I encourage everybody tocheck those out, even if you're
just curious and you just wannaget better background
information.
So I hope you enjoyed thispodcast.
(53:34):
Remember that you can hear uson Advice From your Advocates on
any of the podcast locationswe're pretty much everywhere and
don't forget to subscribe toAdvice From your Advocates so
that you know when we have a newtopic or a new guest and then
you can pick and choose whichones you want to listen to.
(53:55):
And you can also find it at ourwebsite, which is
mannorlawgroup.
com, and then there is a podcastpage there.
So appreciate everybody that'slistening and don't forget to
subscribe.
Attorney Bob Mannor (54:18):
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, visitmannorlawgroup.
com.
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