October 24, 2024 • 46 mins
In this episode of Advice From Your Advocates Podcast, Elder Law Attorney Bob Mannor and Art Bowker, a cybercrime expert with over 40 years in law enforcement, discuss tactics cybercriminals use and how we can protect ourselves and our loved ones—especially seniors—from becoming victims.
Bob and Art explore the rise of sophisticated scams, from phishing emails to AI-generated voice fraud, and highlight the warning signs caregivers and elder care professionals should watch for. Art’s collaboration with Todd Shipley brings valuable insights into how both the public and law enforcement are working to combat these growing digital threats.
Key topics include securing seniors' financial and digital assets, placing fraud alerts or credit freezes, and family involvement in protecting older relatives.
Learn how to foster open communication and take proactive steps to prevent financial exploitation. This episode provides actionable cybersecurity tips tailored to caregivers and elder care professionals.
Episode Takeaways
- Cybersecurity is crucial for protecting the elderly.
- Scammers are increasingly targeting seniors with sophisticated tactics.
- Data breaches can affect anyone, including law enforcement professionals.
- Education and awareness are key to preventing scams.
- Establishing trust and verification methods is essential.
- AI is enhancing the capabilities of scammers.
- Families should be vigilant about their loved ones' financial activities.
- Regularly updating software and security measures is necessary.
- Open communication about finances can prevent exploitation.
- Proactive discussions about care and finances should happen early.
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ABOUT US:
Mannor Law Group helps clients in all matters of estate planning and elder law including special needs planning, veterans’ benefits, Medicaid planning, estate administration, and more. We offer guidance through all stages of life.
We also help families dealing with dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and other illnesses that cause memory loss. We take a comprehensive, holistic approach, called Life Care Planning. LEARN MORE...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Advice from your Advocates, a
show where we provide elder lawadvice to professionals who work
with the elderly and theirfamilies.
I'm really excited about thisAdvice from your Advocates.
So we've been doing Advice fromyour Advocates for about two
years, and this is a topic thatwe really haven't covered enough
(00:21):
, and so, in honor of NationalCybersecurity Awareness Month,
we have Art Oker to talk aboutcybersecurity and how there is
so much sophistication withthese scams that are out there
and that they are targeting ourseniors and they're targeting
(00:41):
folks with dementia, and hegives fantastic tips.
This is a really great podcast.
I recommend that you listen toit from beginning to end,
because there's so many tips andideas to help you and me avoid
those scams, but also ourparents and our patients and our
(01:02):
residents and our loved ones.
So I really think you'll likethis podcast and enjoy.
Welcome back to Advice from yourAdvocates.
I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a certified elder lawattorney in Michigan and I am
excited about today's podcast.
I think you will be too.
This is really really importantinformation, and so far we have
(01:31):
not covered this topic, andit's a very important topic, and
so I'm excited to introduce youto Art Boker.
His website isthecybersafetyguyscom, which
we'll mentiona few more times.
But, art, why don't youintroduce yourself to us?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, bob, thanks for having me Again.
My name is Art Boker.
I am author of three books.
Two of those I co-wrote withTodd Shipley, who is an
experienced cybercrimeinvestigator retired from Reno
Police.
I have over 40 years in lawenforcement.
A good percentage of that wasas a US probation officer
(02:04):
supervising cyber offenders.
Okay, we developed a lot ofexpertise through that
experience and Todd and Idecided we wanted to help the
(02:24):
general public understand how toprotect themselves and how to
survive a cyber attack.
My mother's in assisted livingand we were experiencing some of
the concerns that they werebeing targeted by cyber
criminals.
So we devoted a whole chapter tohelp address these issues with
elderly loved ones and providetips on protecting them and
(02:45):
signs to look for in case theyhave become a victim, and to
take action to help them recoverfrom those situations.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, Art, that's so important and I think this is
really important for ourlisteners.
So I know that we've covered avariety of topics, but I think
this is one of the moreimportant topics because this is
where you can really make animpact.
A lot of times, the topicswe're covering there's not like
pure solutions.
We can try to make it better,we can try to look at ways to
(03:17):
increase quality of life.
This is something where, if youknow the red flags, if you know
what to do to protect yourselfthe red flags, if you know what
to do to protect yourself thereis a significant way that you
can make a difference, that yourfamily does not fall victim.
Now, any of us can be victims,right, Art?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Oh, definitely.
In fact, we make the point thatin this day and age, you can
lock down your computer, make itas secure as possible, but your
data is being held by somebodyelse, right, they drop the ball
and your data is leaked and uh,in fact, both uh myself and my
(03:53):
co-author have been victims ofdata breaches.
Wow, that has been exposed.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, and I think that's probably all of us right,
I mean with different companiesthat we've used, and we get
that message saying, hey, ourdata has been compromised and,
you know, sometimes they'lloffer to pay for had not only
our dates of birth and socialsecurity numbers and whatnot,
but also had our parents andclose relatives.
Contact information.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So it was a significant breach.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So, art, you mentioned three books and I want
to make sure that this isaccurate.
If they're interested ingetting copies of those books,
can they find those books onyour website,
thecybersafetyguyscom.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes, and they're all through Amazon.
The first book, which I wrotemyself, has to deal with
managing cyber offenders as aprobation or parole officer.
Our second book together wasInvestigating Internet Crimes
and it was teaching lawenforcement technology and
walking them through how tocollect information online and
(05:23):
doing undercover investigationsso it could be used in a legal
setting for prosecution, searchwarrants, that type of thing and
that book.
You know, both Todd and I havehad experience teaching police
officers and other lawenforcement technical issues and
(05:46):
explaining it to them so theycould understand it and make it
work, and we wanted to bringthat same expertise or skill to
explaining the same technicalconcepts to the general public.
In fact, we've pushed with ourpublisher.
This is not an IT book.
This is a book for the generalpublic.
(06:07):
We do talk about technology andwhen we do we explain it.
We include checklists andthings to do and things to cover
, but it is meant for thegeneral public.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So if they go to Amazon, I'm betting that they
could search by your name, artBoker.
But what are the names of thosethree books?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
The first book is the Cyber Crime Handbook for
Community Corrections.
The second book isInvestigating Internet Crimes
and the third book is SurvivingCyber Attack.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Wow, that's great.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout you.
This, uh, my notes indicatethat you have 40 years of
experience in dealing with cybercrime.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat 40 years of experience.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, I actually I started as a county probation
officer and I was at that time.
Cyber crime was a hacker who,uh, you know, maybe hacked into
something, or an insider whochanged some code and was able
to do like a salami techniqueand steal like one cent from an
account, and I was kind offascinated by that.
(07:17):
You know that kind of crime, butit wasn't anywhere near what
we're experiencing now right Iwent to work for the Department
of Labor doing unionembezzlement cases and through
that I developed skills in usingcomputers and downloading
financial data and understandinghow useful a computer was for
(07:37):
an investigator.
And then I went to work for theUS Probation Office, who was
starting to experience a lot ofcyber offenders and most of them
were sex offenders.
The development of the internetand computers really gave a
shot to sex offenders becausenow they could take pictures
(08:02):
inappropriate pictures.
They didn't have to have itdeveloped, they could network
with one another and distributeit.
But things have changed quite abit since that time and now you
know we always had romance gameswhere somebody was reaching out
to somebody and saying, youknow developing some kind of
(08:22):
relationship, and it wastypically saying, you know
developing some kind ofrelationship?
And it was typically hey, Ineed money to meet you, can you
give me airfare?
And they would send the airfareto them and they would never
see him again.
You know, it was like a one anddone type thing, or maybe I
need some medication orsomething, can you help me out?
And the people would send money.
(08:42):
But now it has become literallya cottage industry for criminal
organizations.
They are using techniques wherethey are targeting the elderly
and very sophisticated, andthey're not happy with just
getting you know like airfare.
They want their entireretirement kids fund, whatever
(09:04):
they can get.
And there's a term for it.
There's a Chinese phrase but ittranslates into pig butchering.
Basically, they fatten up thetarget with love and attention
and gain their trust and fromthere they spin a tale of you
know you and I could be together.
(09:26):
I have this lifestyle.
I want to help you so that wecan be together.
You need to invest in theseUsually it's cryptocurrency them
(09:47):
false statements and show thempictures of them in fancy cars
and on vacations and food andlike, see, I've made this living
and you would just connect withmy uncle, who's very
sophisticated in this, and theyshower him with this love and
attention.
And the director that doesreports about FinCEN, which is
an organization that tracksfinancial issues involving crime
(10:08):
, reported that these schemescan take like up to 100 days
where they're showering withlove and attention.
They get them to invest.
They show them the returns.
Look how much money you'remaking.
Get them to invest more money.
It's basically a Ponzi schemewhere they're not giving back
any of the investment and thenwhen the individuals want to
(10:31):
take the money out, you knowthey've, like I've earned all
this money.
They're told you have to pay a25% tax on that.
Wow, they would take out loansto get that to pay that 25% tax.
Pay it and then they're notgetting anything.
They're not getting theoriginal investment.
Of course the returns were allbogus and they're left defrauded
(10:58):
loss.
It's a emotional loss thesefolks feel can't trust anybody.
It's really devastating.
If you read some of thestatements, the victim impact
statements that we got from thefederal courts and included in
our book to show the harm, it'sreally heart-rending to see
(11:19):
these folks' life savings betaken from them in, you know, in
the comfort of their home.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Right, hey, Art.
So I you know this is reallyinteresting and I know it seems
obvious that the you know thescammers tend to target older
folks.
So I want you to talk a littlebit about that.
But it was occurring to me asyou were just talking.
One of the things that myparents experienced when they
were alive was that they got somany of these calls and they got
(11:51):
so used to it that they juststopped answering their phone.
And the question I have for youis of course, these types of
calls can come through on cellphones.
I certainly still get some ofthose calls, but my parents were
getting so many of those callson their landline and what
(12:11):
occurred to me at the time wasthe fact that my wife and I we
don't have a landline anymoreYounger people often don't have
a landline anymore and the factthat my parents still had had
that landline.
That's where they were gettingmost of these scam calls and
they still my dad.
After my mom died, my dadcalled me a few times and was
like I'm not sure about this one.
(12:32):
This seems like it's real, butthey were getting so many calls
they were skeptical.
So that's great, but I mean,imagine somebody that has a
little bit more diminishedcapacity.
Uh, you know trying to dealwith this, but I'm wondering if
there's a more of a target.
Obviously there's more of atarget towards seniors.
Is it more on the landlinesthan as a cell phone, or is that
distinction gone away now?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
well, I could tell you that I just got a text
message, yesterday or the daybefore, where, uh, it starts off
with hi um, how are you doing?
And I'm going who is this?
And they go this is diane.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
And they send me a picture and I go and diane is a
young lady yeah, and I'm likeI'm sorry you got the wrong
number yeah well, you seem likea nice person and right, and it
goes into that they target us,us old guys, right, you know we
have a little grand out here,they start targeting us right.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, so it's.
It's not just it's.
It's happening on Facebook,it's happening on LinkedIn, it's
happening on dating sites andcell phones.
A person might not even haveany social media and they're
using the cell phone and they'rehitting them with these.
Uh, you know these like oh, youseem like a nice person and uh,
(13:50):
uh, tell me about yourself.
I'd like to be your friend andcan we move this conversation to
another application.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
That sounds like a red flag.
Anytime somebody says I want tobe your friend and you don't
know them, that's a red flag.
If they want to move it to adifferent application, that's a
red flag, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I can't tell you how many 30-year-olds, 30-year-old
women, are saying that you arethe guy for me.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I've always liked.
We must be very attractive, youand I, because I get those texts
too, and those are just sosilly.
So I want to ask you anotherthing, because if you're
listening to this in real time,obviously some people listen to
our podcast for years and in thefuture, but in real time it's
(14:36):
2024 election season and so I'mgetting all these uh election
texts that I know are scams.
They're not coming from any ofthe legitimate uh candidates or
any packs or any legitimateorganization.
They're just literally tryingto get me to engage so that they
(14:56):
can then engage and then try todo a scam.
And I've seen enough of thisthat I can see some of those red
flags and it's clear to me thatthese are not legitimate
election texts.
They are intentional to try toget you because you're
interested in this party or thisissue, and so then they try to
(15:16):
get you engaged so that thenthey can try to scam you, right?
Is that something that's a bigdeal during elections?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, yes, and they will take advantage of any
situation, like the death of afamous person.
They would do a post, andthey've even made up posts, like
I saw one where the King ofEngland passed away.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Reasonably certain he didn't pass away, but it was a
click click on this.
You end up going there and youget a virus on your computer.
We mentioned about your fathergetting calls.
My father was a retiredexaminer for the banking
industry and he was gettingcalls tech schemes, tech fraud
(16:04):
support.
I go, dad, microsoft is notcalling you up, you know, to fix
your computer.
And the other one was they'resaying they're from the FBI and
there's a warrant for my arrest.
Dad the FBI does not call you upand say there's a warrant for
your arrest, they come out andget you.
(16:27):
So and he was getting those onthe landline.
In fact, I fielded a couple ofthe calls and they wanted me to
install something on thecomputer and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
no, you and I were talking briefly before we
started recording here, and Imentioned to you that I've been
getting emails lately from otherattorneys other attorneys that
I know and trust, and so I'msophisticated enough that I can
recognize it.
But, honestly, you know, if Iget an email from somebody I
know and trust and it's theiractual email that I'm getting it
(17:00):
from and it says hey, I wantyou to take a look at this,
click on this, I need youradvice on this.
So to me that's a red flag,because anybody that I know they
would never just say I needyour advice, I want you to look
at this.
They would tell me why theywant me to look at it.
And so I knew immediately thatit was fake.
And so then I went because Iassumed that it was maybe that
(17:29):
they had made it look like itwas coming from that email
address.
And so I went to their realemail address, sent them an
email and said hey, my friend, Ithink you're that somebody
sending out fake emails for you.
And I just want to let you know.
I got an email back from theirlegitimate email address that
said oh no, that's for real,please look at this.
And I still knew it was fakebecause, like once I reached,
(17:50):
reached out to them and said Ithink this is fake.
They're clearly going to tellme why they want me to look at
it and there was no reason why Iwould have had an interaction
with them at that time.
But you know, it was reallyvery deceiving because it was
somebody I know, somebody Itrust it was their actual email.
And so then I finally calledthem up and said hey, I know
(18:11):
that both of these emails arefake.
Did you know that they were sent?
And as soon as I said it, theywere like oh, we know, these are
being sent out.
I said did you know thatthey're responding to emails now
that they have access, theyhave control of your email,
because I sent you a real email.
They sent me a real email backfrom your email address that
acknowledged my email and saidit was real.
(18:31):
From your email address thatacknowledged my email and said
it was real.
They're like no, we do not knowthat.
So it's that sophisticated thatif you don't know why, somebody
is asking you to click on thatlink.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Do not click on that link.
Well, and you mentioned aboutthe.
You know that it used to be.
You'd get an email and therewould be misspellings and the
syntax would be all wrong, andthere would be misspellings and
the syntax would be all wrong.
With the advent of AI, thoseerrors are going to be greatly
diminished and gone.
They're going to be verybelievable.
(19:03):
There have been cases.
There was a story out of LatinAmerica where individuals were
running the Garand parent schemeand what they were doing was
downloading voices off of socialmedia of loved ones, using
those voices running themthrough AI.
And they sounded like the person, the loved one, and they were
(19:25):
using those to extort money outof people, wow.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
So I mean.
So I think what I'm hearingfrom you is if you get something
that is out of the ordinaryeven if it's your loved one,
even if it's your grandchild,even if it's your child, even if
it's your best friend and itsounds like them that you cannot
trust.
If it's out of the ordinarylike why would my grandchild be
(19:51):
calling me for bail?
Like that doesn't seemconsistent with this grandchild.
Why would my friend be in latinamerica and they never told me
that they were?
Or why would they be on acruise and they told me?
They never told me they werebeing on that cruise.
So you should just be skepticalof pretty much everything,
right?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
exactly, and uh, you know we talk about um setting up
a password with your loved onesthat if you get a call from me
and you question what it is,here's the path.
This is the password we'regoing to use.
We're not talking, and anotherthing is to reach out and talk
(20:32):
to someone else and ask hey, isJohnny my grandchild?
Talk to the mother, where's heat?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
He's home.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Well, obviously he's not out of town, right?
Those are steps you can do toprevent the artificial
intelligence defeating you, youknow, by saying oh, I'm you, oh,
I'm in a jail somewhere.
And another red flag, which I'mkind of surprised people I
don't catch on, is they ask forsend me a gift card.
(21:03):
Well, what is a gift?
You know you can't use a giftcard to pay bail.
That can't be right.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
If anybody ever asked you to send a gift card.
You know it's fake.
Yeah, I have our pastor at ourchurch.
He sends out emails andmessages on social media
regularly, probably once a month, saying, okay, it's happening
again.
And so you know, he has a bigcongregation, he has a big
following and apparently I'venot gotten any of these.
(21:29):
But he apparently this is wherethey target him and they say,
okay, this is somebody that hasa big following, obviously
there's people that really careabout him and so they're trying
to say you know they'll send outthese messages saying, hey, I
really need your help.
And for a pastor, you know apastor might be saying that.
A pastor might be saying, hey,there's this family that needs
(21:50):
help.
Hey, we, there's this crisis,we need you to help donate some
money.
You know that might besomething a pastor might say,
but what they're doing isthey're.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
You know it's all fake yeah, they, uh, they think
of every scheme they can come upwith and ai is greatly
increasing their targetingability and their ability to
make these schemes realistic.
And you know it's very scary.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
So, and I know this is tough, especially for older
folks, because they feel likethis is.
You know it's hard because it'snot the world that you grew up
in, it's not the world that youhave a comfort level with, and
the reality is you just have tobe skeptical, you know.
You see, we always criticize Ithink we always criticize the
younger generations.
(22:37):
So now they talk about themillennials and we've got a
millennial behind the camerahere, that's being my producer
today, and so but then we talkabout now this new generation I
think they call it Generation Zand we talk about them as being
so jaded and just insincere.
Well, they have to be.
And, frankly, us older folksprobably need to start being a
(22:59):
little bit more jaded to say, ok, we can't trust everything that
we see or hear, we have to beskeptical.
And it's probably OK that theyounger generation is skeptical,
because there is so muchfakeness out there that the
younger generation is skepticalbecause there is so much
fakeness out there.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know, you mentioned that the younger
generation and, and they aremore, uh, technically
sophisticated, more skeptical,uh, skeptic.
But there are cases of youngpeople um entering the same kind
of relationships minors and sexextortion is taking place.
(23:33):
Oh, my God, and they're notonly getting them for money, but
there's reports where thesefolks not only want money, but
they want them to brandthemselves and carve initials
and live stream it.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So, and these are, these are people that have you
know, min, that have grown upwith the technology, so it's a
frightening time.
I've never, you know, we didn'thave those types of crimes.
We had horrendous crimes.
But the industrialization ofthis, of these schemes, and the
(24:07):
groups that are out here, theorganized groups, you know we
talk about red flags for lovedones to look for in.
You know their families'behaviors, whether a child or an
adult, and things to you know,like if your grandfather or your
father starts saying you know,I'd like to invest in this
(24:29):
Bitcoin.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
You know?
Can you tell me about this?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Or can you help me install this platform on my cell
phone, this WhatsApp orTelegram, and those are keys.
That why do you want that?
Why do you need that?
Why are you all of a suddeninterested in that?
Or you know, hey, I'd like totravel overseas.
Or I have this online friendthat she and I are.
(24:56):
You know we're communicating.
What about?
Who is this person?
Those are all red flags and youknow banks are becoming more
aware of withdrawals that aremade and like why is this
withdrawal being made?
And they will contact familymembers and say do you know
so-and-so's withdrawing thismoney and shipping it?
(25:18):
Wire transfers and those typesof things.
So we all have to be vigilantthat you know they are targeting
the elderly and vulnerable andit's just a horrendous thing to
be occurring.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
You know, I think that's a you know, really a very
important point, and you knowit is.
There's just so much out therethat, literally, even the most
sophisticated could probablyfall for some of these issues.
So one of the things I wantedto talk to you about and I
appreciate some of the red flagsthat you mentioned particularly
(25:57):
.
So just to go back for a secondparticularly the ones where an
older person is asking a youngerperson to help install an app,
that seems like so innocent,that seems like, okay, you know,
grandpa, thank you.
Finally, you're starting to,you know, stop some of this and
be participating in this, and,frankly, it should be.
(26:18):
Why, grandpa?
What's the purpose of this?
What are you trying to do?
You know what's the backgroundbehind this, and so that's
something that I don't thinkpeople would look at as a red
flag.
I see some of these other oneswhere I have this online friend
that seems like that's anobvious red flag, or I have, you
know, I want to travel overseas.
Oh well, they would have neverexpressed that before.
(26:38):
That probably is going to besubject to more questions.
But I want to download WhatsApp?
Ok, well, that I think mostgrandkids would be like, oh,
great, great, I can.
I can do that for you, I canhelp you and not even think of
that.
That could actually be anexploitation issue.
So asking those questions areso important and you know you
(26:59):
have such great insight ontothis, it doesn't surprise me
that you've gotten some awardsin your career.
So can you tell us a little bitabout some of the awards that
you got with regard to some ofthis?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yes, I got an award from the American Probation and
Parole Association for myefforts in cybercrime, writing
about cybercrime in correctionspopulations.
And then the Federal Probationand Pretrial Officers
Association.
I got an award in the NationalLine Officer Award, as well as
(27:32):
the Regional Officer for again,for my work in managing the risk
of cyber offenders.
And then I'm a member of theHigh Tech Crime Investigators
Association and I was actuallythe international president as
well and I was recognized withthe Lifetime Achievement Award
from that group.
So those are the threeprofessional organizations in
(27:55):
different genres from probationas well as the law enforcement
aspect.
They recognized that I broughtsomething to the table and they
found value in it.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, congratulations .
That doesn't surprise me at all, but it's just the short time
we've been talking.
I can tell that you're reallypassionate about this and you
have some really great insight.
Can you tell us what are somethings that can be implemented
to protect your accounts, toprotect your household, to avoid
some of these risks?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, we talk about their system needs to be
up-to-date.
They need to have up-to-datesoftware to date.
They need to have um up-to-datesoftware anti-virus,
anti-malware.
Um, that is going to stop a lotof the the uh, the viruses or
the spam email.
Um, I had to get out and thatreminds me I had to get after my
(28:49):
father.
He kept going into the spamfolder and he would see these
messages and I'm like dad, thereason why it's a spam is
because it's been flagged as bad.
So just, you know, educatingthem about that.
You know those are the hardware, software types of things that
we all need to implement, andfirewalls, and we talk about
(29:12):
that in our book, step-by-step,going through that.
Then it's discussing what therisks are.
Before we forget, if they're onsocial media, making sure their
social media account is tight,and my mean tight is they're not
sharing private information tothe world.
They're only sharing withfriends that they have
(29:34):
established truly are friendsand not a fake, locking down
their privacy settings sothey're not sharing too much
information and just educatingthem about the elderly.
You maybe want to ask hey, doyou mind if I take a look at
(30:06):
your bank statements and makesure nothing's amiss, because so
often they'll click onsomething and they've signed up
for a subscription that theydidn't know they had.
I know that happened with myfather.
He's paying for an antivirusprogram that he didn't even have
and he was paying for it yearafter year.
And when I took over and startedlooking, I'm like what is this?
(30:28):
And you know I canceled it.
So keeping track of that, aswell as their you know their
credit card statements, and justlike, hey, I'd like to help you
out, I know you're busy.
We're dealing with the elderly.
They have been independent alltheir lives and you've got to do
it in a sensitive way and likelook, I'm just helping you out.
(30:50):
It's not because I think youcan't handle your affairs Now.
There will come a time,unfortunately in some cases,
where they can't handle theiraffairs and you need to take
more aggressive action orassertive action.
I would say.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, and that's where we come in as far as
making sure people have theright legal documents in place
and ideally trying to avoidguardianship things like that.
But you know, it's interestingwhat you say there.
I had a client years ago andthis actually was quite years
ago, meaning that it was beforesome of the sophistication that
(31:26):
was there and she had only onechild and they had kind of a not
great relationship growing up.
But then the daughter finallysaid, okay, I think I need to
step in here, and she startedlooking at her mom's bank
statement and there was $1,500every month taken out for
(31:47):
different services that claimedthat they were identity theft
protection.
So what was happening waspeople were calling and that was
big in the news back then.
Right, it still always is inthe news for many, many years,
this identity theft protection.
And so she was seeing this.
You know, this is a concern.
She had some diminishedcapacity and so she'd get these
(32:08):
calls and as soon as she agreedto sign up for one, then they
probably sold her name and phonenumber to all the other
scammers and between all of thescammers she was paying $1,500 a
month for identity theftprotection for people that were
actually.
You know, basically in some waystealing her identity.
It was clearly not realidentity theft protection, and
(32:32):
that's what happens when wedon't keep, you know, we're not
watching.
And she had enough money thatit didn't.
You know she wasn't not payingher bills, so nobody was it.
Didn't, you know, raise thosered flags that, hey, your
heating bill's not getting paid.
But finally the daughter hadstepped, you know, forward and
said, hey, you know, can I lookat your bank statement?
Can I just see what's on there?
It's one of those things that'svery difficult because we all
(32:55):
know that there are kids thatare bad kids, that are trying to
take advantage of, trying tomooch off of mom and dad and
sort of steal their money, andthat's they're.
They're just being greedy, butmost of us are, most of the kids
aren't, and so.
But the good kids are nervousabout making that, asking that
question, you know saying, hey,do you mind if I look at your
(33:16):
bank statement just so I see ifI see any red flags, anything
like that?
I wrote an article years agocalled why you Should Care About
your Parents' Money, and it'scounterintuitive because a lot
of people think, oh, we got tolet people have privacy.
I don't want to interfere.
I don't want to seem greedy, Idon't want to seem like I'm the
bad kid trying to make sure thatthey leave me in an inheritance
(33:39):
.
No, the reason why you shouldcare about your parents' money
is as we age, we have morevulnerabilities, we have more
susceptibility to these types ofscams, and so it's a good idea
If you're a good kid.
If you're a bad kid, don't lookat your parents' bank statement
.
If you're a good kid and youhave good intentions, you should
(33:59):
be inquiring as your parentsage and get older and become
more vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, and it goes in open communication.
You know you're not going to goout of the blue and just so, I
need to see your bank statements.
You're right, it's.
You're going to have arelationship with them and, um,
you know, keeping in contactwith them and, uh, checking on
their general welfare and thattype of thing, um, and the being
(34:28):
able to look at the bankstatement doesn't seem unusual
in that situation, when you'rechecking on them and engaging
them and you know, uh, and justthat engagement, like if you
don't see their bank bankaccount statement, but they
start raising those other redflags that I talked about.
You know like, oh, I have anonline friend that I'm talking
(34:50):
with.
You know those are like, okay,let's talk about that.
Yeah, um, and you know thoseare like, okay, let's talk about
that.
Yeah, and you know it's, it'sfunny we talk about.
You know we're talking aboutthe elderly.
But my son, he, he startedgetting hit with charges from
DoorDash or one of the placesdeliver food, and it was just a
small amount, like five, $10.
(35:10):
And then it hit like $250.
And I go where?
Where did you go and buy allthis food?
And he had been hacked and theyhad taken his debit card and he
wasn't catching on the littlecharges.
And I'm like you got to.
In this day and age, you got tocheck your bank statements
Right and regularly, becausethose charges will sneak in and
(35:34):
if you don't pay attention,everybody's got to do it.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and they'll start.
And what's interesting aboutthat is because I think a lot of
us would imagine that somebodyhas access to the information.
They're going to immediatelyhit it with a $5,000 charge or
something.
No, it's the $5 charge.
They're going to test it andthen they're going to test it
again.
They're going to test it andthen they're going to test it
again.
They're going to test it againand they're going to wait until
they feel comfortable beforethey hit that large charge,
(35:59):
because they know that largecharge is probably going to be
reduced, but they don't expectyou know that, so they're
testing it.
I've had that happen a numberof times and with business
accounts where you know I see itand I see, okay, there's a
$5.13 charge here, three timesfor some online thing.
I'm pretty sure none of usordered that, and so you really
(36:20):
have to be eternally vigilant onthese kinds of things.
Definitely, definitely Do youhave any platforms or safety
tools that you could give usideas, or do you have any
thoughts on some some somesafety mechanisms that we should
be considering using?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Well, I think you know, as we get older, uh, we
might consider a fraud alert onour credit cards, uh, on our
accounts.
That, uh, that's not as uh, Idon't want to say severe, but
it's not as restrictive as acredit freeze.
But you know, when you getolder, why do you need to
(36:59):
establish?
You know, why do you need tohave open lines of credit or
being able to go get credit allthe time.
Well, you know that's a goodpoint.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
You mentioned a credit freeze.
Why not freeze it?
So I have at least I have twoout of three credit bureaus
frozen right now, because youknow it's rare that I'm having
somebody pull my credit.
You know I have credit cards.
I have credit already.
If I'm going to have somebodypull my credit to buy a new car
or to get a mortgage orsomething, I can easily change
that.
But in the meantime I don'tneed.
(37:29):
You know, I'm not going to beopening credit store credit
cards at every store that I open.
You know that I go into andoffers me a store credit card.
So if I'm rarely opening newcredit, why not do a credit
freeze?
Because you can always reverseit anytime you want to.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
So I think it's a good idea.
Again, as I said it's, you knowthe mechanics of keeping your
antivirus and your software upto date.
And another thing that I wouldsuggest is on your cell phone is
set up a PIN so that somebodycan't change your provider or
(38:08):
the SIM card.
Get another SIM card, becausethat's used for two-party
authentication.
You know your cell phone.
You get a code on your phonethat says okay.
Then you use that to get inyour bank account.
There have been cases wherepeople have switched the SIM
card, put it in another phoneand then they can get that code
(38:30):
and still, you know, have accessto your accounts.
So protection is to make sureyou have a PIN number with your
cell phone provider that therecan't be any changes to your
account without that PIN beingprovided.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
That's a really good tip, because you wouldn't think
about that.
Most of the things where wehave to reset our passwords or
anything else, it's going to goto our phone and if they can, if
they can copy our phone.
So what I think?
I want to be clear on whatyou're saying.
I want to get some clarity here.
It's not the pin that you putin to open your phone.
(39:08):
It's the pin that you wouldhave with your, your, your
provider, that you can't makeany changes to it without
knowing that PIN.
Is that what you're saying?
That's correct.
That's correct.
So that's an importantdistinction, because initially,
when you were saying that, I waslike, oh yeah, I have a code
that I have to put in to open myphone, that's not what would
(39:28):
stop this.
What would stop it and I havethis also is that they can't.
If you call Verizon, which ismy provider, they will not make
changes unless they know my PINas to what it was required to
make changes, and that's the PINthat would solve that problem.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, that stops the SIM duplication that can be used
to get another SIM card andthen they'll get your text
messages and calls as if it wasyour phone and that stops.
That's really important.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So I have a couple more questions and I appreciate
your time.
I'm not going to take up toomuch more of your time.
I appreciate the work that youdo.
Can you give us an idea of howfamilies that have someone that
they're caring for so let's sayit's a senior with diminished
capacity or some memory issues,so they're the family of that
person what steps would yourecommend that they take to make
(40:25):
sure that that senior, thatperson with the diminished
capacity, isn't taken advantageof?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Well, you know we talk about my folks were in
assisted living and the assistedliving had Wi-Fi.
So if they're living in thatsituation, whatever devices they
have, you have to make surethat those devices are safe to
operate in that environment.
Same thing is my father had acell phone.
(40:55):
You have to make sure the cellphone has those same safeguards
and that he can still get textmessages.
And I know there's cases ofindividuals in assisted living
who are getting text messagesand developing these
relationships and are notrelationships but being scanned
because they're still gettingthe messages.
(41:16):
So, um, it's an involvement.
You know, if they're at thatsituation, um, I eventually had
to.
I had power of attorney overthere, you know I was able to
pay their bills and whatnot, butI actually needed to get
guardianship at one pointbecause they had to sell them,
sell their house to so that,sell their house so that they
(41:37):
would continue to be able to payfor their care, as their
savings and whatnot wasdiminished.
So it's tough.
I mean I'm lucky I've got mysister who helps out, but it's a
tough thing.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
You're actually taking over their finances and
making sure things are properlydone, and you know.
So there's four of us that wereworking here and giving similar
advice and we all were prettyreluctant to talk to our parents
.
It's like, ok, we can give thatadvice to others, that you got
to step in and kind of giveadvice to your parents and
sometimes, honestly, you know,be a little bit more direct and
(42:30):
really give them, you know,strong direction.
Give them, you know, strongdirection.
Even though the four of us werecomfortable giving that with
other families, it was verydifficult when it was our
parents that we had to step in.
So I realized that we can givethat advice and how difficult it
is to sort of parent yourparents.
That that's that.
That can be very difficult.
(42:50):
I did want to mention one thing.
You mentioned having to getguardianship and that often and
that often is the necessity Foranybody listening I would
recommend you give us a call ifyou have to sell the house or
something like that, wheresomebody tells you that you
can't do it without gettingguardianship.
Call us first, because often wecan come up with lesser
(43:11):
inclusive options that doesn'tinvolve having to involve the
government or the court processNow, not always so often, you
know.
There are times where we haveto go in and get guardianship or
in Michigan we call itconservatorship for assets but I
always recommend you call usfirst if you've been given that
advice and, of course, that'ssomething we could help you with
(43:33):
too.
If you have to go into court,we have court attorneys too, but
we're always looking for moreways to keep it out of the
government process, to keep itout of the courts and making
sure the family can make thefamily decisions.
So make sure that you're awareof that.
I want to really thank Art Bokerand all of the work that he
(43:57):
does.
His website isthecybersafetyguyscom.
I recommend that you check itout.
This has been a fascinating andreally interesting interview.
Any final thoughts or resourcesthat you want to leave our
audience before we finish uphere today, art?
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, I, I would like to kind of follow up with, you
know, those discussions with theelder, elderly, parents or
loved one.
It's better to do that, thosediscussions before their
capacity gets, so that it itwill not, that it won't mean
anything.
My father was adamant about notgoing into an assisted living
(44:38):
and, um, uh, I didn't have, Ididn't.
One thing about COVID is, hehad to move in there to be with
my mom and uh, otherwise, I, uhit was going to be too tough.
But you need to have thosediscussions way before uh
becomes an issue that they don'thave the capacity anymore to
(44:58):
make those to make thosedecisions to help you.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I agree with you entirely, Art.
That's so important.
So, you know, we do a lot ofeducation.
We do a lot of uh, you knowthis, these events and these
podcasts and things like that,and then we're always talking
about planning ahead,pre-planning, but we also
acknowledge that the majority wehave a lot of great people that
(45:23):
plan ahead, that try to putthese things in place ahead of
time, and that's so much better.
It'd be better for you, muchmore likely to get the results
that you want.
It's so much easier for thefamily if they know what you
want.
We've put in options that aregoing to make that much more
feasible to accomplish what youwant.
The reality, though, is a goodpercentage of people are only
(45:44):
going to call an attorney or,you know, reach out to us in a
crisis, and we can help thosetoo.
Of course, we would rather havehad GP prepared for this, but
there was always.
You know, if you have, if momand dad haven't prepared, we can
always still help you in acrisis.
So, Art, thank you so much.
This has been great information.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
I appreciate you giving me this opportunity to
talk about this important topicand have me back anytime.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
It is a very important topic and if you
enjoyed this podcast and youwant to make sure that you get
access to our future ones, youcan subscribe to our podcast
Advice From your Advocates atany of the places that you
listen to podcasts, or you cango to YouTube, or you can go to
our website at manorlawgroupcom.
Thank you so much for listeningand we'll see you next time.
Bye, thanks for listening.
(46:41):
To learn more, visitmanorlawgroupcom.
You're listening to Advice from your Advocates, a
show where we provide elder lawadvice to professionals who work
with the elderly and theirfamilies.
I'm really excited about thisAdvice from your Advocates.
So we've been doing Advice fromyour Advocates for about two
years, and this is a topic thatwe really haven't covered enough
(00:21):
, and so, in honor of NationalCybersecurity Awareness Month,
we have Art Oker to talk aboutcybersecurity and how there is
so much sophistication withthese scams that are out there
and that they are targeting ourseniors and they're targeting
(00:41):
folks with dementia, and hegives fantastic tips.
This is a really great podcast.
I recommend that you listen toit from beginning to end,
because there's so many tips andideas to help you and me avoid
those scams, but also ourparents and our patients and our
(01:02):
residents and our loved ones.
So I really think you'll likethis podcast and enjoy.
Welcome back to Advice from yourAdvocates.
I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a certified elder lawattorney in Michigan and I am
excited about today's podcast.
I think you will be too.
This is really really importantinformation, and so far we have
(01:31):
not covered this topic, andit's a very important topic, and
so I'm excited to introduce youto Art Boker.
His website isthecybersafetyguyscom, which
we'll mentiona few more times.
But, art, why don't youintroduce yourself to us?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, bob, thanks for having me Again.
My name is Art Boker.
I am author of three books.
Two of those I co-wrote withTodd Shipley, who is an
experienced cybercrimeinvestigator retired from Reno
Police.
I have over 40 years in lawenforcement.
A good percentage of that wasas a US probation officer
(02:04):
supervising cyber offenders.
Okay, we developed a lot ofexpertise through that
experience and Todd and Idecided we wanted to help the
(02:24):
general public understand how toprotect themselves and how to
survive a cyber attack.
My mother's in assisted livingand we were experiencing some of
the concerns that they werebeing targeted by cyber
criminals.
So we devoted a whole chapter tohelp address these issues with
elderly loved ones and providetips on protecting them and
(02:45):
signs to look for in case theyhave become a victim, and to
take action to help them recoverfrom those situations.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, Art, that's so important and I think this is
really important for ourlisteners.
So I know that we've covered avariety of topics, but I think
this is one of the moreimportant topics because this is
where you can really make animpact.
A lot of times, the topicswe're covering there's not like
pure solutions.
We can try to make it better,we can try to look at ways to
(03:17):
increase quality of life.
This is something where, if youknow the red flags, if you know
what to do to protect yourselfthe red flags, if you know what
to do to protect yourself thereis a significant way that you
can make a difference, that yourfamily does not fall victim.
Now, any of us can be victims,right, Art?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Oh, definitely.
In fact, we make the point thatin this day and age, you can
lock down your computer, make itas secure as possible, but your
data is being held by somebodyelse, right, they drop the ball
and your data is leaked and uh,in fact, both uh myself and my
(03:53):
co-author have been victims ofdata breaches.
Wow, that has been exposed.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, and I think that's probably all of us right,
I mean with different companiesthat we've used, and we get
that message saying, hey, ourdata has been compromised and,
you know, sometimes they'lloffer to pay for had not only
our dates of birth and socialsecurity numbers and whatnot,
but also had our parents andclose relatives.
Contact information.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So it was a significant breach.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So, art, you mentioned three books and I want
to make sure that this isaccurate.
If they're interested ingetting copies of those books,
can they find those books onyour website,
thecybersafetyguyscom.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes, and they're all through Amazon.
The first book, which I wrotemyself, has to deal with
managing cyber offenders as aprobation or parole officer.
Our second book together wasInvestigating Internet Crimes
and it was teaching lawenforcement technology and
walking them through how tocollect information online and
(05:23):
doing undercover investigationsso it could be used in a legal
setting for prosecution, searchwarrants, that type of thing and
that book.
You know, both Todd and I havehad experience teaching police
officers and other lawenforcement technical issues and
(05:46):
explaining it to them so theycould understand it and make it
work, and we wanted to bringthat same expertise or skill to
explaining the same technicalconcepts to the general public.
In fact, we've pushed with ourpublisher.
This is not an IT book.
This is a book for the generalpublic.
(06:07):
We do talk about technology andwhen we do we explain it.
We include checklists andthings to do and things to cover
, but it is meant for thegeneral public.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So if they go to Amazon, I'm betting that they
could search by your name, artBoker.
But what are the names of thosethree books?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
The first book is the Cyber Crime Handbook for
Community Corrections.
The second book isInvestigating Internet Crimes
and the third book is SurvivingCyber Attack.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Wow, that's great.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout you.
This, uh, my notes indicatethat you have 40 years of
experience in dealing with cybercrime.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthat 40 years of experience.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Well, I actually I started as a county probation
officer and I was at that time.
Cyber crime was a hacker who,uh, you know, maybe hacked into
something, or an insider whochanged some code and was able
to do like a salami techniqueand steal like one cent from an
account, and I was kind offascinated by that.
(07:17):
You know that kind of crime, butit wasn't anywhere near what
we're experiencing now right Iwent to work for the Department
of Labor doing unionembezzlement cases and through
that I developed skills in usingcomputers and downloading
financial data and understandinghow useful a computer was for
(07:37):
an investigator.
And then I went to work for theUS Probation Office, who was
starting to experience a lot ofcyber offenders and most of them
were sex offenders.
The development of the internetand computers really gave a
shot to sex offenders becausenow they could take pictures
(08:02):
inappropriate pictures.
They didn't have to have itdeveloped, they could network
with one another and distributeit.
But things have changed quite abit since that time and now you
know we always had romance gameswhere somebody was reaching out
to somebody and saying, youknow developing some kind of
(08:22):
relationship, and it wastypically saying, you know
developing some kind ofrelationship?
And it was typically hey, Ineed money to meet you, can you
give me airfare?
And they would send the airfareto them and they would never
see him again.
You know, it was like a one anddone type thing, or maybe I
need some medication orsomething, can you help me out?
And the people would send money.
(08:42):
But now it has become literallya cottage industry for criminal
organizations.
They are using techniques wherethey are targeting the elderly
and very sophisticated, andthey're not happy with just
getting you know like airfare.
They want their entireretirement kids fund, whatever
(09:04):
they can get.
And there's a term for it.
There's a Chinese phrase but ittranslates into pig butchering.
Basically, they fatten up thetarget with love and attention
and gain their trust and fromthere they spin a tale of you
know you and I could be together.
(09:26):
I have this lifestyle.
I want to help you so that wecan be together.
You need to invest in theseUsually it's cryptocurrency them
(09:47):
false statements and show thempictures of them in fancy cars
and on vacations and food andlike, see, I've made this living
and you would just connect withmy uncle, who's very
sophisticated in this, and theyshower him with this love and
attention.
And the director that doesreports about FinCEN, which is
an organization that tracksfinancial issues involving crime
(10:08):
, reported that these schemescan take like up to 100 days
where they're showering withlove and attention.
They get them to invest.
They show them the returns.
Look how much money you'remaking.
Get them to invest more money.
It's basically a Ponzi schemewhere they're not giving back
any of the investment and thenwhen the individuals want to
(10:31):
take the money out, you knowthey've, like I've earned all
this money.
They're told you have to pay a25% tax on that.
Wow, they would take out loansto get that to pay that 25% tax.
Pay it and then they're notgetting anything.
They're not getting theoriginal investment.
Of course the returns were allbogus and they're left defrauded
(10:58):
loss.
It's a emotional loss thesefolks feel can't trust anybody.
It's really devastating.
If you read some of thestatements, the victim impact
statements that we got from thefederal courts and included in
our book to show the harm, it'sreally heart-rending to see
(11:19):
these folks' life savings betaken from them in, you know, in
the comfort of their home.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Right, hey, Art.
So I you know this is reallyinteresting and I know it seems
obvious that the you know thescammers tend to target older
folks.
So I want you to talk a littlebit about that.
But it was occurring to me asyou were just talking.
One of the things that myparents experienced when they
were alive was that they got somany of these calls and they got
(11:51):
so used to it that they juststopped answering their phone.
And the question I have for youis of course, these types of
calls can come through on cellphones.
I certainly still get some ofthose calls, but my parents were
getting so many of those callson their landline and what
(12:11):
occurred to me at the time wasthe fact that my wife and I we
don't have a landline anymoreYounger people often don't have
a landline anymore and the factthat my parents still had had
that landline.
That's where they were gettingmost of these scam calls and
they still my dad.
After my mom died, my dadcalled me a few times and was
like I'm not sure about this one.
(12:32):
This seems like it's real, butthey were getting so many calls
they were skeptical.
So that's great, but I mean,imagine somebody that has a
little bit more diminishedcapacity.
Uh, you know trying to dealwith this, but I'm wondering if
there's a more of a target.
Obviously there's more of atarget towards seniors.
Is it more on the landlinesthan as a cell phone, or is that
distinction gone away now?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
well, I could tell you that I just got a text
message, yesterday or the daybefore, where, uh, it starts off
with hi um, how are you doing?
And I'm going who is this?
And they go this is diane.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
And they send me a picture and I go and diane is a
young lady yeah, and I'm likeI'm sorry you got the wrong
number yeah well, you seem likea nice person and right, and it
goes into that they target us,us old guys, right, you know we
have a little grand out here,they start targeting us right.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, so it's.
It's not just it's.
It's happening on Facebook,it's happening on LinkedIn, it's
happening on dating sites andcell phones.
A person might not even haveany social media and they're
using the cell phone and they'rehitting them with these.
Uh, you know these like oh, youseem like a nice person and uh,
(13:50):
uh, tell me about yourself.
I'd like to be your friend andcan we move this conversation to
another application.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
That sounds like a red flag.
Anytime somebody says I want tobe your friend and you don't
know them, that's a red flag.
If they want to move it to adifferent application, that's a
red flag, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I can't tell you how many 30-year-olds, 30-year-old
women, are saying that you arethe guy for me.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
I've always liked.
We must be very attractive, youand I, because I get those texts
too, and those are just sosilly.
So I want to ask you anotherthing, because if you're
listening to this in real time,obviously some people listen to
our podcast for years and in thefuture, but in real time it's
(14:36):
2024 election season and so I'mgetting all these uh election
texts that I know are scams.
They're not coming from any ofthe legitimate uh candidates or
any packs or any legitimateorganization.
They're just literally tryingto get me to engage so that they
(14:56):
can then engage and then try todo a scam.
And I've seen enough of thisthat I can see some of those red
flags and it's clear to me thatthese are not legitimate
election texts.
They are intentional to try toget you because you're
interested in this party or thisissue, and so then they try to
(15:16):
get you engaged so that thenthey can try to scam you, right?
Is that something that's a bigdeal during elections?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yes, yes, and they will take advantage of any
situation, like the death of afamous person.
They would do a post, andthey've even made up posts, like
I saw one where the King ofEngland passed away.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
Reasonably certain he didn't pass away, but it was a
click click on this.
You end up going there and youget a virus on your computer.
We mentioned about your fathergetting calls.
My father was a retiredexaminer for the banking
industry and he was gettingcalls tech schemes, tech fraud
(16:04):
support.
I go, dad, microsoft is notcalling you up, you know, to fix
your computer.
And the other one was they'resaying they're from the FBI and
there's a warrant for my arrest.
Dad the FBI does not call you upand say there's a warrant for
your arrest, they come out andget you.
(16:27):
So and he was getting those onthe landline.
In fact, I fielded a couple ofthe calls and they wanted me to
install something on thecomputer and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
no, you and I were talking briefly before we
started recording here, and Imentioned to you that I've been
getting emails lately from otherattorneys other attorneys that
I know and trust, and so I'msophisticated enough that I can
recognize it.
But, honestly, you know, if Iget an email from somebody I
know and trust and it's theiractual email that I'm getting it
(17:00):
from and it says hey, I wantyou to take a look at this,
click on this, I need youradvice on this.
So to me that's a red flag,because anybody that I know they
would never just say I needyour advice, I want you to look
at this.
They would tell me why theywant me to look at it.
And so I knew immediately thatit was fake.
And so then I went because Iassumed that it was maybe that
(17:29):
they had made it look like itwas coming from that email
address.
And so I went to their realemail address, sent them an
email and said hey, my friend, Ithink you're that somebody
sending out fake emails for you.
And I just want to let you know.
I got an email back from theirlegitimate email address that
said oh no, that's for real,please look at this.
And I still knew it was fakebecause, like once I reached,
(17:50):
reached out to them and said Ithink this is fake.
They're clearly going to tellme why they want me to look at
it and there was no reason why Iwould have had an interaction
with them at that time.
But you know, it was reallyvery deceiving because it was
somebody I know, somebody Itrust it was their actual email.
And so then I finally calledthem up and said hey, I know
(18:11):
that both of these emails arefake.
Did you know that they were sent?
And as soon as I said it, theywere like oh, we know, these are
being sent out.
I said did you know thatthey're responding to emails now
that they have access, theyhave control of your email,
because I sent you a real email.
They sent me a real email backfrom your email address that
acknowledged my email and saidit was real.
(18:31):
From your email address thatacknowledged my email and said
it was real.
They're like no, we do not knowthat.
So it's that sophisticated thatif you don't know why, somebody
is asking you to click on thatlink.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Do not click on that link.
Well, and you mentioned aboutthe.
You know that it used to be.
You'd get an email and therewould be misspellings and the
syntax would be all wrong, andthere would be misspellings and
the syntax would be all wrong.
With the advent of AI, thoseerrors are going to be greatly
diminished and gone.
They're going to be verybelievable.
(19:03):
There have been cases.
There was a story out of LatinAmerica where individuals were
running the Garand parent schemeand what they were doing was
downloading voices off of socialmedia of loved ones, using
those voices running themthrough AI.
And they sounded like the person, the loved one, and they were
(19:25):
using those to extort money outof people, wow.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
So I mean.
So I think what I'm hearingfrom you is if you get something
that is out of the ordinaryeven if it's your loved one,
even if it's your grandchild,even if it's your child, even if
it's your best friend and itsounds like them that you cannot
trust.
If it's out of the ordinarylike why would my grandchild be
(19:51):
calling me for bail?
Like that doesn't seemconsistent with this grandchild.
Why would my friend be in latinamerica and they never told me
that they were?
Or why would they be on acruise and they told me?
They never told me they werebeing on that cruise.
So you should just be skepticalof pretty much everything,
right?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
exactly, and uh, you know we talk about um setting up
a password with your loved onesthat if you get a call from me
and you question what it is,here's the path.
This is the password we'regoing to use.
We're not talking, and anotherthing is to reach out and talk
(20:32):
to someone else and ask hey, isJohnny my grandchild?
Talk to the mother, where's heat?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
He's home.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Well, obviously he's not out of town, right?
Those are steps you can do toprevent the artificial
intelligence defeating you, youknow, by saying oh, I'm you, oh,
I'm in a jail somewhere.
And another red flag, which I'mkind of surprised people I
don't catch on, is they ask forsend me a gift card.
(21:03):
Well, what is a gift?
You know you can't use a giftcard to pay bail.
That can't be right.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
If anybody ever asked you to send a gift card.
You know it's fake.
Yeah, I have our pastor at ourchurch.
He sends out emails andmessages on social media
regularly, probably once a month, saying, okay, it's happening
again.
And so you know, he has a bigcongregation, he has a big
following and apparently I'venot gotten any of these.
(21:29):
But he apparently this is wherethey target him and they say,
okay, this is somebody that hasa big following, obviously
there's people that really careabout him and so they're trying
to say you know they'll send outthese messages saying, hey, I
really need your help.
And for a pastor, you know apastor might be saying that.
A pastor might be saying, hey,there's this family that needs
(21:50):
help.
Hey, we, there's this crisis,we need you to help donate some
money.
You know that might besomething a pastor might say,
but what they're doing isthey're.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
You know it's all fake yeah, they, uh, they think
of every scheme they can come upwith and ai is greatly
increasing their targetingability and their ability to
make these schemes realistic.
And you know it's very scary.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
So, and I know this is tough, especially for older
folks, because they feel likethis is.
You know it's hard because it'snot the world that you grew up
in, it's not the world that youhave a comfort level with, and
the reality is you just have tobe skeptical, you know.
You see, we always criticize Ithink we always criticize the
younger generations.
(22:37):
So now they talk about themillennials and we've got a
millennial behind the camerahere, that's being my producer
today, and so but then we talkabout now this new generation I
think they call it Generation Zand we talk about them as being
so jaded and just insincere.
Well, they have to be.
And, frankly, us older folksprobably need to start being a
(22:59):
little bit more jaded to say, ok, we can't trust everything that
we see or hear, we have to beskeptical.
And it's probably OK that theyounger generation is skeptical,
because there is so muchfakeness out there that the
younger generation is skepticalbecause there is so much
fakeness out there.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know, you mentioned that the younger
generation and, and they aremore, uh, technically
sophisticated, more skeptical,uh, skeptic.
But there are cases of youngpeople um entering the same kind
of relationships minors and sexextortion is taking place.
(23:33):
Oh, my God, and they're notonly getting them for money, but
there's reports where thesefolks not only want money, but
they want them to brandthemselves and carve initials
and live stream it.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So, and these are, these are people that have you
know, min, that have grown upwith the technology, so it's a
frightening time.
I've never, you know, we didn'thave those types of crimes.
We had horrendous crimes.
But the industrialization ofthis, of these schemes, and the
(24:07):
groups that are out here, theorganized groups, you know we
talk about red flags for lovedones to look for in.
You know their families'behaviors, whether a child or an
adult, and things to you know,like if your grandfather or your
father starts saying you know,I'd like to invest in this
(24:29):
Bitcoin.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
You know?
Can you tell me about this?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Or can you help me install this platform on my cell
phone, this WhatsApp orTelegram, and those are keys.
That why do you want that?
Why do you need that?
Why are you all of a suddeninterested in that?
Or you know, hey, I'd like totravel overseas.
Or I have this online friendthat she and I are.
(24:56):
You know we're communicating.
What about?
Who is this person?
Those are all red flags and youknow banks are becoming more
aware of withdrawals that aremade and like why is this
withdrawal being made?
And they will contact familymembers and say do you know
so-and-so's withdrawing thismoney and shipping it?
(25:18):
Wire transfers and those typesof things.
So we all have to be vigilantthat you know they are targeting
the elderly and vulnerable andit's just a horrendous thing to
be occurring.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
You know, I think that's a you know, really a very
important point, and you knowit is.
There's just so much out therethat, literally, even the most
sophisticated could probablyfall for some of these issues.
So one of the things I wantedto talk to you about and I
appreciate some of the red flagsthat you mentioned particularly
(25:57):
.
So just to go back for a secondparticularly the ones where an
older person is asking a youngerperson to help install an app,
that seems like so innocent,that seems like, okay, you know,
grandpa, thank you.
Finally, you're starting to,you know, stop some of this and
be participating in this, and,frankly, it should be.
(26:18):
Why, grandpa?
What's the purpose of this?
What are you trying to do?
You know what's the backgroundbehind this, and so that's
something that I don't thinkpeople would look at as a red
flag.
I see some of these other oneswhere I have this online friend
that seems like that's anobvious red flag, or I have, you
know, I want to travel overseas.
Oh well, they would have neverexpressed that before.
(26:38):
That probably is going to besubject to more questions.
But I want to download WhatsApp?
Ok, well, that I think mostgrandkids would be like, oh,
great, great, I can.
I can do that for you, I canhelp you and not even think of
that.
That could actually be anexploitation issue.
So asking those questions areso important and you know you
(26:59):
have such great insight ontothis, it doesn't surprise me
that you've gotten some awardsin your career.
So can you tell us a little bitabout some of the awards that
you got with regard to some ofthis?
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yes, I got an award from the American Probation and
Parole Association for myefforts in cybercrime, writing
about cybercrime in correctionspopulations.
And then the Federal Probationand Pretrial Officers
Association.
I got an award in the NationalLine Officer Award, as well as
(27:32):
the Regional Officer for again,for my work in managing the risk
of cyber offenders.
And then I'm a member of theHigh Tech Crime Investigators
Association and I was actuallythe international president as
well and I was recognized withthe Lifetime Achievement Award
from that group.
So those are the threeprofessional organizations in
(27:55):
different genres from probationas well as the law enforcement
aspect.
They recognized that I broughtsomething to the table and they
found value in it.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Well, congratulations .
That doesn't surprise me at all, but it's just the short time
we've been talking.
I can tell that you're reallypassionate about this and you
have some really great insight.
Can you tell us what are somethings that can be implemented
to protect your accounts, toprotect your household, to avoid
some of these risks?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, we talk about their system needs to be
up-to-date.
They need to have up-to-datesoftware to date.
They need to have um up-to-datesoftware anti-virus,
anti-malware.
Um, that is going to stop a lotof the the uh, the viruses or
the spam email.
Um, I had to get out and thatreminds me I had to get after my
(28:49):
father.
He kept going into the spamfolder and he would see these
messages and I'm like dad, thereason why it's a spam is
because it's been flagged as bad.
So just, you know, educatingthem about that.
You know those are the hardware, software types of things that
we all need to implement, andfirewalls, and we talk about
(29:12):
that in our book, step-by-step,going through that.
Then it's discussing what therisks are.
Before we forget, if they're onsocial media, making sure their
social media account is tight,and my mean tight is they're not
sharing private information tothe world.
They're only sharing withfriends that they have
(29:34):
established truly are friendsand not a fake, locking down
their privacy settings sothey're not sharing too much
information and just educatingthem about the elderly.
You maybe want to ask hey, doyou mind if I take a look at
(30:06):
your bank statements and makesure nothing's amiss, because so
often they'll click onsomething and they've signed up
for a subscription that theydidn't know they had.
I know that happened with myfather.
He's paying for an antivirusprogram that he didn't even have
and he was paying for it yearafter year.
And when I took over and startedlooking, I'm like what is this?
(30:28):
And you know I canceled it.
So keeping track of that, aswell as their you know their
credit card statements, and justlike, hey, I'd like to help you
out, I know you're busy.
We're dealing with the elderly.
They have been independent alltheir lives and you've got to do
it in a sensitive way and likelook, I'm just helping you out.
(30:50):
It's not because I think youcan't handle your affairs Now.
There will come a time,unfortunately in some cases,
where they can't handle theiraffairs and you need to take
more aggressive action orassertive action.
I would say.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, and that's where we come in as far as
making sure people have theright legal documents in place
and ideally trying to avoidguardianship things like that.
But you know, it's interestingwhat you say there.
I had a client years ago andthis actually was quite years
ago, meaning that it was beforesome of the sophistication that
(31:26):
was there and she had only onechild and they had kind of a not
great relationship growing up.
But then the daughter finallysaid, okay, I think I need to
step in here, and she startedlooking at her mom's bank
statement and there was $1,500every month taken out for
(31:47):
different services that claimedthat they were identity theft
protection.
So what was happening waspeople were calling and that was
big in the news back then.
Right, it still always is inthe news for many, many years,
this identity theft protection.
And so she was seeing this.
You know, this is a concern.
She had some diminishedcapacity and so she'd get these
(32:08):
calls and as soon as she agreedto sign up for one, then they
probably sold her name and phonenumber to all the other
scammers and between all of thescammers she was paying $1,500 a
month for identity theftprotection for people that were
actually.
You know, basically in some waystealing her identity.
It was clearly not realidentity theft protection, and
(32:32):
that's what happens when wedon't keep, you know, we're not
watching.
And she had enough money thatit didn't.
You know she wasn't not payingher bills, so nobody was it.
Didn't, you know, raise thosered flags that, hey, your
heating bill's not getting paid.
But finally the daughter hadstepped, you know, forward and
said, hey, you know, can I lookat your bank statement?
Can I just see what's on there?
It's one of those things that'svery difficult because we all
(32:55):
know that there are kids thatare bad kids, that are trying to
take advantage of, trying tomooch off of mom and dad and
sort of steal their money, andthat's they're.
They're just being greedy, butmost of us are, most of the kids
aren't, and so.
But the good kids are nervousabout making that, asking that
question, you know saying, hey,do you mind if I look at your
(33:16):
bank statement just so I see ifI see any red flags, anything
like that?
I wrote an article years agocalled why you Should Care About
your Parents' Money, and it'scounterintuitive because a lot
of people think, oh, we got tolet people have privacy.
I don't want to interfere.
I don't want to seem greedy, Idon't want to seem like I'm the
bad kid trying to make sure thatthey leave me in an inheritance
(33:39):
.
No, the reason why you shouldcare about your parents' money
is as we age, we have morevulnerabilities, we have more
susceptibility to these types ofscams, and so it's a good idea
If you're a good kid.
If you're a bad kid, don't lookat your parents' bank statement
.
If you're a good kid and youhave good intentions, you should
(33:59):
be inquiring as your parentsage and get older and become
more vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, and it goes in open communication.
You know you're not going to goout of the blue and just so, I
need to see your bank statements.
You're right, it's.
You're going to have arelationship with them and, um,
you know, keeping in contactwith them and, uh, checking on
their general welfare and thattype of thing, um, and the being
(34:28):
able to look at the bankstatement doesn't seem unusual
in that situation, when you'rechecking on them and engaging
them and you know, uh, and justthat engagement, like if you
don't see their bank bankaccount statement, but they
start raising those other redflags that I talked about.
You know like, oh, I have anonline friend that I'm talking
(34:50):
with.
You know those are like, okay,let's talk about that.
Yeah, um, and you know thoseare like, okay, let's talk about
that.
Yeah, and you know it's, it'sfunny we talk about.
You know we're talking aboutthe elderly.
But my son, he, he startedgetting hit with charges from
DoorDash or one of the placesdeliver food, and it was just a
small amount, like five, $10.
(35:10):
And then it hit like $250.
And I go where?
Where did you go and buy allthis food?
And he had been hacked and theyhad taken his debit card and he
wasn't catching on the littlecharges.
And I'm like you got to.
In this day and age, you got tocheck your bank statements
Right and regularly, becausethose charges will sneak in and
(35:34):
if you don't pay attention,everybody's got to do it.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, and they'll start.
And what's interesting aboutthat is because I think a lot of
us would imagine that somebodyhas access to the information.
They're going to immediatelyhit it with a $5,000 charge or
something.
No, it's the $5 charge.
They're going to test it andthen they're going to test it
again.
They're going to test it andthen they're going to test it
again.
They're going to test it againand they're going to wait until
they feel comfortable beforethey hit that large charge,
(35:59):
because they know that largecharge is probably going to be
reduced, but they don't expectyou know that, so they're
testing it.
I've had that happen a numberof times and with business
accounts where you know I see itand I see, okay, there's a
$5.13 charge here, three timesfor some online thing.
I'm pretty sure none of usordered that, and so you really
(36:20):
have to be eternally vigilant onthese kinds of things.
Definitely, definitely Do youhave any platforms or safety
tools that you could give usideas, or do you have any
thoughts on some some somesafety mechanisms that we should
be considering using?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Well, I think you know, as we get older, uh, we
might consider a fraud alert onour credit cards, uh, on our
accounts.
That, uh, that's not as uh, Idon't want to say severe, but
it's not as restrictive as acredit freeze.
But you know, when you getolder, why do you need to
(36:59):
establish?
You know, why do you need tohave open lines of credit or
being able to go get credit allthe time.
Well, you know that's a goodpoint.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
You mentioned a credit freeze.
Why not freeze it?
So I have at least I have twoout of three credit bureaus
frozen right now, because youknow it's rare that I'm having
somebody pull my credit.
You know I have credit cards.
I have credit already.
If I'm going to have somebodypull my credit to buy a new car
or to get a mortgage orsomething, I can easily change
that.
But in the meantime I don'tneed.
(37:29):
You know, I'm not going to beopening credit store credit
cards at every store that I open.
You know that I go into andoffers me a store credit card.
So if I'm rarely opening newcredit, why not do a credit
freeze?
Because you can always reverseit anytime you want to.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
So I think it's a good idea.
Again, as I said it's, you knowthe mechanics of keeping your
antivirus and your software upto date.
And another thing that I wouldsuggest is on your cell phone is
set up a PIN so that somebodycan't change your provider or
(38:08):
the SIM card.
Get another SIM card, becausethat's used for two-party
authentication.
You know your cell phone.
You get a code on your phonethat says okay.
Then you use that to get inyour bank account.
There have been cases wherepeople have switched the SIM
card, put it in another phoneand then they can get that code
(38:30):
and still, you know, have accessto your accounts.
So protection is to make sureyou have a PIN number with your
cell phone provider that therecan't be any changes to your
account without that PIN beingprovided.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
That's a really good tip, because you wouldn't think
about that.
Most of the things where wehave to reset our passwords or
anything else, it's going to goto our phone and if they can, if
they can copy our phone.
So what I think?
I want to be clear on whatyou're saying.
I want to get some clarity here.
It's not the pin that you putin to open your phone.
(39:08):
It's the pin that you wouldhave with your, your, your
provider, that you can't makeany changes to it without
knowing that PIN.
Is that what you're saying?
That's correct.
That's correct.
So that's an importantdistinction, because initially,
when you were saying that, I waslike, oh yeah, I have a code
that I have to put in to open myphone, that's not what would
(39:28):
stop this.
What would stop it and I havethis also is that they can't.
If you call Verizon, which ismy provider, they will not make
changes unless they know my PINas to what it was required to
make changes, and that's the PINthat would solve that problem.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yeah, that stops the SIM duplication that can be used
to get another SIM card andthen they'll get your text
messages and calls as if it wasyour phone and that stops.
That's really important.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
So I have a couple more questions and I appreciate
your time.
I'm not going to take up toomuch more of your time.
I appreciate the work that youdo.
Can you give us an idea of howfamilies that have someone that
they're caring for so let's sayit's a senior with diminished
capacity or some memory issues,so they're the family of that
person what steps would yourecommend that they take to make
(40:25):
sure that that senior, thatperson with the diminished
capacity, isn't taken advantageof?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Well, you know we talk about my folks were in
assisted living and the assistedliving had Wi-Fi.
So if they're living in thatsituation, whatever devices they
have, you have to make surethat those devices are safe to
operate in that environment.
Same thing is my father had acell phone.
(40:55):
You have to make sure the cellphone has those same safeguards
and that he can still get textmessages.
And I know there's cases ofindividuals in assisted living
who are getting text messagesand developing these
relationships and are notrelationships but being scanned
because they're still gettingthe messages.
(41:16):
So, um, it's an involvement.
You know, if they're at thatsituation, um, I eventually had
to.
I had power of attorney overthere, you know I was able to
pay their bills and whatnot, butI actually needed to get
guardianship at one pointbecause they had to sell them,
sell their house to so that,sell their house so that they
(41:37):
would continue to be able to payfor their care, as their
savings and whatnot wasdiminished.
So it's tough.
I mean I'm lucky I've got mysister who helps out, but it's a
tough thing.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
You're actually taking over their finances and
making sure things are properlydone, and you know.
So there's four of us that wereworking here and giving similar
advice and we all were prettyreluctant to talk to our parents
.
It's like, ok, we can give thatadvice to others, that you got
to step in and kind of giveadvice to your parents and
sometimes, honestly, you know,be a little bit more direct and
(42:30):
really give them, you know,strong direction.
Give them, you know, strongdirection.
Even though the four of us werecomfortable giving that with
other families, it was verydifficult when it was our
parents that we had to step in.
So I realized that we can givethat advice and how difficult it
is to sort of parent yourparents.
That that's that.
That can be very difficult.
(42:50):
I did want to mention one thing.
You mentioned having to getguardianship and that often and
that often is the necessity Foranybody listening I would
recommend you give us a call ifyou have to sell the house or
something like that, wheresomebody tells you that you
can't do it without gettingguardianship.
Call us first, because often wecan come up with lesser
(43:11):
inclusive options that doesn'tinvolve having to involve the
government or the court processNow, not always so often, you
know.
There are times where we haveto go in and get guardianship or
in Michigan we call itconservatorship for assets but I
always recommend you call usfirst if you've been given that
advice and, of course, that'ssomething we could help you with
(43:33):
too.
If you have to go into court,we have court attorneys too, but
we're always looking for moreways to keep it out of the
government process, to keep itout of the courts and making
sure the family can make thefamily decisions.
So make sure that you're awareof that.
I want to really thank Art Bokerand all of the work that he
(43:57):
does.
His website isthecybersafetyguyscom.
I recommend that you check itout.
This has been a fascinating andreally interesting interview.
Any final thoughts or resourcesthat you want to leave our
audience before we finish uphere today, art?
Speaker 2 (44:15):
Yeah, I, I would like to kind of follow up with, you
know, those discussions with theelder, elderly, parents or
loved one.
It's better to do that, thosediscussions before their
capacity gets, so that it itwill not, that it won't mean
anything.
My father was adamant about notgoing into an assisted living
(44:38):
and, um, uh, I didn't have, Ididn't.
One thing about COVID is, hehad to move in there to be with
my mom and uh, otherwise, I, uhit was going to be too tough.
But you need to have thosediscussions way before uh
becomes an issue that they don'thave the capacity anymore to
(44:58):
make those to make thosedecisions to help you.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I agree with you entirely, Art.
That's so important.
So, you know, we do a lot ofeducation.
We do a lot of uh, you knowthis, these events and these
podcasts and things like that,and then we're always talking
about planning ahead,pre-planning, but we also
acknowledge that the majority wehave a lot of great people that
(45:23):
plan ahead, that try to putthese things in place ahead of
time, and that's so much better.
It'd be better for you, muchmore likely to get the results
that you want.
It's so much easier for thefamily if they know what you
want.
We've put in options that aregoing to make that much more
feasible to accomplish what youwant.
The reality, though, is a goodpercentage of people are only
(45:44):
going to call an attorney or,you know, reach out to us in a
crisis, and we can help thosetoo.
Of course, we would rather havehad GP prepared for this, but
there was always.
You know, if you have, if momand dad haven't prepared, we can
always still help you in acrisis.
So, Art, thank you so much.
This has been great information.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
I appreciate you giving me this opportunity to
talk about this important topicand have me back anytime.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
It is a very important topic and if you
enjoyed this podcast and youwant to make sure that you get
access to our future ones, youcan subscribe to our podcast
Advice From your Advocates atany of the places that you
listen to podcasts, or you cango to YouTube, or you can go to
our website at manorlawgroupcom.
Thank you so much for listeningand we'll see you next time.
Bye, thanks for listening.
(46:41):
To learn more, visitmanorlawgroupcom.
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