September 11, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode of Advice From Your Advocates, we delve into how to make the later years your best years. Elder Law Attorney Bob Mannor is joined by geriatric care expert and author Dr. Corinne Auman to explore the vital topic of elder care, revealing how aging can be a time of growth, connection, and purpose.
Dr. Auman shines a light on her groundbreaking book, Keenagers: Telling a New Story About Aging, introducing a transformative perspective on life beyond midlife. Listeners will uncover ways to provide vital caregiver support, reduce stress, and prevent social isolation.
Together, they discuss strategies to challenge age bias in healthcare and society, build purpose, protect mental health, and strengthen social connections for a fulfilling retirement. Whether you’re caring for a loved one or planning your own next chapter, tune in for inspiration on how to live longer—and better.
Host: Elder Law Attorney Bob Mannor
Guest: Dr. Corinne Auman
Executive Producer: Savannah Gillett Meksto
Assistant Producers: Samantha Noah, Shalene Gaul, Alecia Campbell
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ABOUT US:
Mannor Law Group helps clients in all matters of estate planning and elder law including special needs planning, veterans’ benefits, Medicaid planning, estate administration, and more. We offer guidance through all stages of life.
We also help families dealing with dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and other illnesses that cause memory loss. We take a comprehensive, holistic approach, called Life Care Planning. LEARN MORE...
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Advice from your Advocates, a
show where we provide elder lawadvice to professionals who work
with the elderly and theirfamilies.
Welcome back to Advice fromyour Advocates.
I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a board-certified elder lawattorney in the state of
Michigan and we have a fantasticguest for you today.
I really find her topicinteresting.
(00:23):
She has a fantastic book that Irecommend, so, Dr Corinne
Allman.
Dr Allman, can you introduceyourself for us and then we'll
get into your book and all theuseful information you can
provide to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Sure, so my name is Dr Corinne Allman and I'm based
in North Carolina.
I'm the founder of a companycalled Choice Care Navigators,
where we are a geriatric caremanagement agency, and then I've
written a book called KeenAgers telling a new story about
aging.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Let's get right into your book.
So that's a term that youcoined, that term right, keen
Agers.
I think it's really interesting, so tell me what you mean by
that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I'm popularizing it.
I tell the story in the book ofhow the word came about, but
essentially the term teenager ismy way of trying to find a
positive word to talk about theaging process and growing older,
because so much of our languagearound this time period isn't
(01:30):
positive.
And if you're trying to write abook about telling a new story
about aging and kind ofreframing or reshaping how we
talk about it and all you've gotto use is words or codger and
old coots and all these negativewords, it's like what are we
going to do?
So in the process of that, afriend of mine's mom said oh, we
(01:54):
like to be called keenagers,and I think that's really a
great word, because thedefinition of keen is highly
developed, or having a realinterest, a sharp interest in
something, and I think thatreally describes a lot of older
adults today.
They are highly developed andthey are very keen to keep doing
things, keep learning, keepgrowing, not just retire and sit
(02:18):
on their front porch in theirrocking chair.
And so that's how the word cameabout.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
You know, I think the whole aging process has changed
.
You know, our expectations ofaging has changed over our
lifetimes.
I remember being a youngcollege age person watching
Cheers and the people there were, you know, in their 30s and 40s
(02:43):
and they were looked at as kindof older.
And now we think of older asnot he's in 40s by any means.
It's a whole different world.
I think it's a positivedevelopment that we don't start
aging people out when they're 40.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I just think it's really interesting.
So you have this book.
I want to name the bookspecifically.
It's an award-winning book,teenagers Telling a New Story of
Aging.
So tell us a little bit moreabout the book.
I have specific questions.
I'm going to ask you about it,but I want you to just kind of
give us an overview of it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well.
So, as I mentioned, I run acare management agency and that
is work where I am often workingwith families when they are in
crisis and maybe the whole agingprocess isn't going so well,
right?
So people will often say to mehow can you write a book about
looking forward to growing olderthe positive aspects of aging
(03:43):
while also doing this work wherethere's a lot of crisis and
trying to work things out?
And the answer to that is thatI have really witnessed over the
course of this career how muchyour attitude about your own
aging and how much your planningand preparation for your own
(04:04):
aging really determines how wellit's going to go.
So, for example, my clients whohave kind of denied their aging
and they've been you know thisisn't going to happen to me.
I'll talk about planning andpreparation when it's time and
I'm putting that in quotes,because the time never really
(04:25):
comes and what that leads to isa lot of chaos, a lot of stress,
a lot of chaos, a lot of notgetting what you want in terms
of care or what you want to havehappen as you grow older, and
my clients who are lookingforward to growing older, who
are excited about what's comingand what their opportunities are
(04:47):
going to be after their firstretirement and they get to start
some new career or new paththat they haven't been down
before.
Those people are planning, theyare doing their documents,
they're doing their healthcarepower of attorney and their
financial power of attorney.
They're preparing because theyknow they're looking ahead and
going.
(05:07):
This could be great.
I'm excited about the years thatare ahead of me, but also I
want to make sure that this goesreally well.
So I'm going to do everything inmy power to make sure that it
happens.
And that is the power of apositive aging story.
Because if you are lookingahead at your life and going I
(05:30):
got some really fun things,exciting things ahead of me
after I retire then you dothings to plan and prepare and
make that happen, whereas ifyou're kind of buying into our
traditional you retire and thenyou go sit on the front porch or
you play a lot of golf but youdon't actually quote, unquote,
(05:52):
do anything and it's kind of alldownhill from here then it kind
of becomes a self-fulfillingprophecy, in that that lack of
planning and preparation meansthat it doesn't go very well.
That's what I'm trying to getat in the book.
Is this idea that you have alot of power and control over
how well your aging process isgoing to go, and that story that
(06:16):
you're telling yourself in yourown head about what aging is
going to be like has atremendous impact on what you
will do and how it will go.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I love that, I think that's fantastic, you know.
I think that there is a certainamount of self-fulfilling
prophecy, right.
And so I do feel, like somepeople, sort of dread retirement
.
I think this is actually athing that lawyers you know we
see lawyers often that will, wecall them where they die at
(06:49):
their desk and what that meansis they just never retire and
it's because they don't knowwhat to do next.
They haven't made a plan.
They've done a full, veryhelpful, successful career and
yet they just don't know what todo next.
And so I think that's reallyimportant to start thinking
(07:10):
about that at a younger age.
It's not something that you'resupposed to think about at 70.
It's something that you'resupposed to think about at about
45 to say, okay, what would benext for me?
On the flip side of that, thereis this sort of commercial
image of retirement.
I tease my colleagues in thefinancial industry about this,
(07:35):
because when you look at mostfinancial companies and they
have a commercial on TV theyalways present this idolistic
image of retirement on TV.
They always present thisidealistic image of retirement
and for some reason the commonscenario is that we're all going
to own vineyards in retirementBecause it just seems so odd Not
(08:00):
everybody wants to own avineyard, but when we're running
on the beach and we're doingall these things, and so I think
there is both.
That it's that middle ground ofbeing over idealistic,
idealistic about retirementversus not planning for
retirement.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So talk a little bit more about that please.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, I mean I think, yeah, we're kind of sold a
false bill of goods in bothextremes.
Right, like we have this sortof you're going to own a
vineyard or a bookstore I thinka bookstore is another really
big one right, you're going toown, you're going to do that in
retirement or the other kind ofbill of goods that were sold is
(08:34):
the your health is going to beterrible and it's all downhill
and you know you are reallynothing but a series of health
problems as you grow older.
So there's like these twoextremes that we're told.
And the truth is more in themiddle, in the sense that as we
grow older, yeah, we probablyare going to have more health
(08:55):
issues.
That is true for all of us.
But I like to think about it asa yes and yes, I have this
health issue, whatever it is,and I'm running down the beach
with my loved one and my dog.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Or whatever it is for you.
Maybe the point is alwayswhat's going to make you want to
get out of bed on a Wednesdaymorning in retirement, right?
So what's going to give yourlife meaning and purpose?
And that's going to bedifferent for everybody.
Maybe it is starting a vineyard, right, but maybe it's
(09:36):
caregiving for your grandkids,or maybe it's volunteering at
the local whatever charity orgroup you're interested in.
Maybe it's starting a newbusiness, maybe it's being an
artist, because you never hadtime for that before.
It really doesn't matter whatit is, as long as you can figure
out what it is.
(09:57):
Because the thing that so manypeople struggle with in
retirement, especially like Ilike your example of lawyers,
because I think they're a goodone Doctors are another one.
They have worked really longwork weeks right 60 hour, 80
hour work weeks for 30 plusyears of their life.
They didn't have time forhobbies before retirement and
(10:22):
their identity is really wrappedup in this career that they've
had.
And so then when you retire,you kind of go through this.
You know it's kind of like ahoneymoon period after you get
married.
This, you know.
Six to 18 months of this isgreat and I love this and
fantastic.
And then at some point you kindof go this is it.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
What's next?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, what's next?
Is this all?
Is this what I'm going to dofor the next 20 or 30 years of
my life?
Because if you, if you retireat 55, 60, 65, you're not
looking at a couple of years ofretirement, you're looking at a
couple of decades of retirement,and all that leisure is really
(11:09):
fun in the short term, butunlimited for decades you kind
of start going this is a littleboring and there's this sort of
nobody really needs me foranything, nobody really wants me
for anything, and that kind ofstarts to hurt your soul after a
while, because it's thatpurpose, that meaning that's
(11:32):
important, what's going to makeme want to get out of bed on
Wednesday morning.
And if nobody needs me foranything and nobody wants me for
anything and I don't haveanything that I'm going to go do
, staying in bed starts to lookpretty good.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
And that can be particularly challenging.
If you have a spouse that maybeneeds some, maybe has some
memory issues that are startingto develop or has some physical
restrictions, then restrictionsthen you know it's okay, they
need me, but this isn't what Iimagined.
You know, before they needed meand I got.
You know, I got praised for thethings that I did for people.
(12:09):
Now somebody needs me and Idon't get any.
I don't get any awards forcaring for my spouse, you know.
So that can be very challenging.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Absolutely, and caregiving can also be very
socially isolating.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Because if you're caregiving for someone 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, youmay not have time to go out and
socialize, you may not wantpeople coming into the home, and
so that sort of not only thework that that is, but also the
social isolation, can bedevastating for people's mental
health.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So I know you understand these concepts, but
it's something I always like tobring up.
There's two things when we endup having a caregiver spouse and
one spouse that needs care.
One is that tendency that youjust talked about to kind of
cocoon in the house, which isnot very healthy, and there are
a lot of options and servicesout there for folks to get
(13:09):
additional help, outside helpbut there's almost a stigma
which I hate and I wish that wecould get rid of that stigma
which I hate, and I wish that wecould get rid of that stigma.
But it really makes thingsworse if we just kind of cocoon
in the house.
The other thing is the kind oftendency of well, statistics at
(13:30):
least tell us that the caregiverspouse dies first, most of the
time because they're putting allthe pressure on themselves.
You know, the person with, maybeAlzheimer's or dementia or
something like that doesn't havethe ability to feel the stress
at the same level.
Maybe the caregiver spouse isnot getting good sleep at night,
things like that, and so bothof those things cocooning in the
(13:52):
house and not getting anyoutside help and taking on all
of the caregiving dutiesyourself often lead to a shorter
lifespan.
And now we end up with thespouse that needs the care not
having their.
You know, if the caregiverspouse dies first, then we're in
a much worse position.
So it's one of those thingsthat we really try to identify
(14:14):
and help people understand thatit really is best and it is
really important that we havesomething outside of your role
as a caregiver.
You have to have more than that.
You have to have respite, youhave to have a break.
You kind of have to bring insome help at whatever level that
is.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I do want to talk about, since we kind of got to a
more depressing area of theconversation.
I want to talk about age bias.
I'll give you my thoughts on itin a second, but I know that
that's part of your conversation, that you have, and so let's
talk a little bit about the bias.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Well so age bias is ageism right?
It's a stereotype aboutsomebody based on their age, and
typically we think about itwith older people, although we
can have age bias againstyounger people as well, If we
look at somebody young and we go, oh, you're too young to know
anything or too inexperienced.
That's the same thing.
But it tends to get worse as weget older, particularly for our
(15:19):
older adults, as they and I'mlike for our teenagers, for our
people in their 50s, 60s, 70sand beyond.
The age bias starts and youstart to see it in things like
the workplace, when you get laidoff and it becomes much more
difficult to get rehired in yourface.
(15:40):
We start to see it inhealthcare when you go to the
doctor and you've got an ache ora pain or something's going on
and your doctor kind of goeswell, you know, you're getting
older, the kind of classicexamples.
But you see it all the time.
If you've been to the doctorwith your parent or your
grandparent and the nurse comesup to your loved one and says,
(16:00):
hey, sweetie, how are you today?
Aren't you looking so handsome?
That's elder speak and that isa form of age bias.
So it's really all around usand comes in multiple different
areas of our lives.
Honestly, quite hard to avoid.
And once you start reallypaying attention to age bias,
(16:24):
you start hearing it and seeingit kind of everywhere in your
life.
Because I have to tell you nowthat I've been in this field for
a while I, you know I listenedto the things that come out of
my own mouth and I go.
why did I say that?
But it's like it's so ingrainedwe just say these things or
(16:45):
think this way, without evenconsidering why we're doing that
.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Absolutely.
I agree, I catch myself onthese things too.
It's one of the things.
So in my office we have aprogram called Care Navigation,
which is a little bit similar tosome of the things that you do
in your field.
We have social workers on staffthat are doing care advocacy
for folks, and at the verybeginning of every interaction
(17:12):
with a new family I always askthem you know, okay, you've been
told dementia, have you gottenany kind of specific diagnosis?
And the vast, vast majority oftime the answer is no, and you
know, vast majority of time theanswer is no.
And you know dementia is acategory of diseases.
(17:37):
There's a variety of things, anda real diagnosis of what type
of dementia can be very helpfulfor setting expectations, having
the family understand what thelikely progress is and I know
that they can't do a perfectdiagnosis, and that's one of the
excuses that we often hear thatthe doctors and neurologists
give is that, well, we can'tgive a perfect diagnosis, okay,
well, what do you think you know?
Because it really would behelpful sometimes to know is
(17:58):
this vascular in trying to plotout our future and making sure
we're prepared for it?
And I do think it's age biaswhen the answer.
(18:19):
No one would ever say, hey, youhave cancer.
And you say, ok, well, whattype of cancer?
And they would say, well, itdoesn't matter.
No, you know, it matters,obviously.
And so it matters also withdementia.
And I think there's an age biaswhere we say, oh, you're old
anyway, who cares?
And I really dislike that aboutthe medical industry and even
(18:41):
the you know, the specialistindustry of neurologists and
things like that, that justaren't willing to share with the
family the specifics of thetype of dementia, and I do feel
like that's an H-bis, and oftenwe've got to push back on that
and say, okay, well, thank youfor the advice you've given us,
(19:01):
but we really need to know alittle bit more.
We're not expecting a hundredpercent perfect analysis,
because we know that's notpossible, but the vast majority
of time you can give us an ideaof what you think it is.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Right, Right.
And you know, the same thing istrue just in the medical field.
You know, not many doctors gointo geriatrics because
geriatrics is one of the poorestpaid specialties Is that right
and I think that's part of theage bias.
It's also the case that a lot ofwhen you're talking to new
(19:33):
doctors, they don't really wannago into geriatrics, not only
because that doesn't get paidvery well, but also because of
their own bias, right?
They think older adults will beharder to work with, they think
they'll be stubborn, they thinkthey won't listen, they think
they'll be too complicatedbecause they'll have too many
comorbidities, too manypre-existing conditions kind of
(19:57):
thing.
And you know, if you believeall those stereotypes because
that's what those things arethen yeah, it doesn't seem very
appealing to go work with olderadults.
But I think what a lot ofgeriatricians would actually say
is that older adults are reallyfun to work with in a lot of
ways because they areinteresting people with long
(20:20):
lives and all sorts of thingsthat differentiate them.
They're not just thisstereotype of cranky old people
that we have but that worksagainst us actually getting
geriatricians to specialize inworking with older adults,
because there's all thesefactors that are just really
(20:42):
bias and stereotypes workingagainst it.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So I want to shift gears a little bit, and it is a
good segue, because this is truefor folks with a loved one with
dementia, but it's also truefor everybody, whether there's
ever a dementia diagnosis or not.
I saw a TED Talk I don'tremember the speaker, but it was
(21:06):
a TED Talk that talked aboutquality of life, and so it was.
She actually talked aboutquality and quality.
The biggest predictor is socialconnections, having someone to
(21:33):
connect with.
You know, if we have that wherewe're just kind of secluded and
watch TV all day and don't getout of our chair, both the
quantity and quality of our lifeis as likely to be lost, and
her research showed us that,really, for both quality and
quantity, it's about how manyfriends you have, how many good
(21:56):
friends that you have, how manyyou know what's your family
relationships and how close theyare, and I think that that goes
hand in hand with what you'resaying.
Is that right?
Oh, yeah, I mean, and, as yousaid, there's what you're saying
?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Is that right?
Oh yeah, I mean and, as yousaid, there's lots of research
on this now that you know,having social isolation is as
bad, if not worse, for you thansmoking a pack of cigarettes
every day.
I mean it's terrible for you andI think we see that with older
people and we saw it a lotduring COVID, when everything
shut down and older adults weresocially isolated, you know, for
(22:30):
their protection, but it wasreally terrible for their mental
and emotional health.
But we also, you know, you seeit more now even with young
people, where they talk aboutthe loneliness, crisis and
social isolation becauseeverybody's on their phone and
they're not interacting with oneanother.
Right, but there's a lot ofresearch too.
(22:50):
If you've ever looked into theblue zones, these are the areas
in the world where people livethe longest and there's a really
interesting documentary aboutthe blue zones.
They talk about what they eatand you know their nutrition and
all these things.
But the other thing that theseareas where people live the
longest have in common is theirsense of community and social
(23:14):
connection and that the olderadults are actively involved in
the communities that they livein.
They're not living in a nursinghome, separated out somewhere.
They're not sitting in theirhome, never interacting with
people.
They are integral parts of thecommunity.
They're getting up and they'reinvolved and they're doing
(23:35):
things every day, and thatsocial interaction is just as
important as any nutritionalprogram that we could put
somebody on.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, isn't that interesting.
So I so much appreciate DrCorinne, a gerontologist and
author of Teenagers, telling aNew Story About Aging.
Any final thoughts you want toleave our listeners?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
No, I don't think so.
I think we covered a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, I appreciate you being on our podcast.
If you enjoyed this podcast,don't forget to subscribe.
We're on every other week and anew podcast every other week.
We've got a couple of yearsworth of back podcasts and you
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But anywhere you listen topodcasts, you can register and
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(24:26):
So thank you for joining us atAdvice from your Advocates and
thank you for Dr Corinne Allmanbeing our guest today.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
And so I appreciate all the listeners and we'll see
you next time.
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, visitmanorlawgroupcom.
You're listening to Advice from your Advocates, a
show where we provide elder lawadvice to professionals who work
with the elderly and theirfamilies.
Welcome back to Advice fromyour Advocates.
I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a board-certified elder lawattorney in the state of
Michigan and we have a fantasticguest for you today.
I really find her topicinteresting.
(00:23):
She has a fantastic book that Irecommend, so, Dr Corinne
Allman.
Dr Allman, can you introduceyourself for us and then we'll
get into your book and all theuseful information you can
provide to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Sure, so my name is Dr Corinne Allman and I'm based
in North Carolina.
I'm the founder of a companycalled Choice Care Navigators,
where we are a geriatric caremanagement agency, and then I've
written a book called KeenAgers telling a new story about
aging.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Let's get right into your book.
So that's a term that youcoined, that term right, keen
Agers.
I think it's really interesting, so tell me what you mean by
that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, I'm popularizing it.
I tell the story in the book ofhow the word came about, but
essentially the term teenager ismy way of trying to find a
positive word to talk about theaging process and growing older,
because so much of our languagearound this time period isn't
(01:30):
positive.
And if you're trying to write abook about telling a new story
about aging and kind ofreframing or reshaping how we
talk about it and all you've gotto use is words or codger and
old coots and all these negativewords, it's like what are we
going to do?
So in the process of that, afriend of mine's mom said oh, we
(01:54):
like to be called keenagers,and I think that's really a
great word, because thedefinition of keen is highly
developed, or having a realinterest, a sharp interest in
something, and I think thatreally describes a lot of older
adults today.
They are highly developed andthey are very keen to keep doing
things, keep learning, keepgrowing, not just retire and sit
(02:18):
on their front porch in theirrocking chair.
And so that's how the word cameabout.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
You know, I think the whole aging process has changed
.
You know, our expectations ofaging has changed over our
lifetimes.
I remember being a youngcollege age person watching
Cheers and the people there were, you know, in their 30s and 40s
(02:43):
and they were looked at as kindof older.
And now we think of older asnot he's in 40s by any means.
It's a whole different world.
I think it's a positivedevelopment that we don't start
aging people out when they're 40.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I just think it's really interesting.
So you have this book.
I want to name the bookspecifically.
It's an award-winning book,teenagers Telling a New Story of
Aging.
So tell us a little bit moreabout the book.
I have specific questions.
I'm going to ask you about it,but I want you to just kind of
give us an overview of it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well.
So, as I mentioned, I run acare management agency and that
is work where I am often workingwith families when they are in
crisis and maybe the whole agingprocess isn't going so well,
right?
So people will often say to mehow can you write a book about
looking forward to growing olderthe positive aspects of aging
(03:43):
while also doing this work wherethere's a lot of crisis and
trying to work things out?
And the answer to that is thatI have really witnessed over the
course of this career how muchyour attitude about your own
aging and how much your planningand preparation for your own
(04:04):
aging really determines how wellit's going to go.
So, for example, my clients whohave kind of denied their aging
and they've been you know thisisn't going to happen to me.
I'll talk about planning andpreparation when it's time and
I'm putting that in quotes,because the time never really
(04:25):
comes and what that leads to isa lot of chaos, a lot of stress,
a lot of chaos, a lot of notgetting what you want in terms
of care or what you want to havehappen as you grow older, and
my clients who are lookingforward to growing older, who
are excited about what's comingand what their opportunities are
(04:47):
going to be after their firstretirement and they get to start
some new career or new paththat they haven't been down
before.
Those people are planning, theyare doing their documents,
they're doing their healthcarepower of attorney and their
financial power of attorney.
They're preparing because theyknow they're looking ahead and
going.
(05:07):
This could be great.
I'm excited about the years thatare ahead of me, but also I
want to make sure that this goesreally well.
So I'm going to do everything inmy power to make sure that it
happens.
And that is the power of apositive aging story.
Because if you are lookingahead at your life and going I
(05:30):
got some really fun things,exciting things ahead of me
after I retire then you dothings to plan and prepare and
make that happen, whereas ifyou're kind of buying into our
traditional you retire and thenyou go sit on the front porch or
you play a lot of golf but youdon't actually quote, unquote,
(05:52):
do anything and it's kind of alldownhill from here then it kind
of becomes a self-fulfillingprophecy, in that that lack of
planning and preparation meansthat it doesn't go very well.
That's what I'm trying to getat in the book.
Is this idea that you have alot of power and control over
how well your aging process isgoing to go, and that story that
(06:16):
you're telling yourself in yourown head about what aging is
going to be like has atremendous impact on what you
will do and how it will go.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
I love that, I think that's fantastic, you know.
I think that there is a certainamount of self-fulfilling
prophecy, right.
And so I do feel, like somepeople, sort of dread retirement
.
I think this is actually athing that lawyers you know we
see lawyers often that will, wecall them where they die at
(06:49):
their desk and what that meansis they just never retire and
it's because they don't knowwhat to do next.
They haven't made a plan.
They've done a full, veryhelpful, successful career and
yet they just don't know what todo next.
And so I think that's reallyimportant to start thinking
(07:10):
about that at a younger age.
It's not something that you'resupposed to think about at 70.
It's something that you'resupposed to think about at about
45 to say, okay, what would benext for me?
On the flip side of that, thereis this sort of commercial
image of retirement.
I tease my colleagues in thefinancial industry about this,
(07:35):
because when you look at mostfinancial companies and they
have a commercial on TV theyalways present this idolistic
image of retirement on TV.
They always present thisidealistic image of retirement
and for some reason the commonscenario is that we're all going
to own vineyards in retirementBecause it just seems so odd Not
(08:00):
everybody wants to own avineyard, but when we're running
on the beach and we're doingall these things, and so I think
there is both.
That it's that middle ground ofbeing over idealistic,
idealistic about retirementversus not planning for
retirement.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So talk a little bit more about that please.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, I mean I think, yeah, we're kind of sold a
false bill of goods in bothextremes.
Right, like we have this sortof you're going to own a
vineyard or a bookstore I thinka bookstore is another really
big one right, you're going toown, you're going to do that in
retirement or the other kind ofbill of goods that were sold is
(08:34):
the your health is going to beterrible and it's all downhill
and you know you are reallynothing but a series of health
problems as you grow older.
So there's like these twoextremes that we're told.
And the truth is more in themiddle, in the sense that as we
grow older, yeah, we probablyare going to have more health
(08:55):
issues.
That is true for all of us.
But I like to think about it asa yes and yes, I have this
health issue, whatever it is,and I'm running down the beach
with my loved one and my dog.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Or whatever it is for you.
Maybe the point is alwayswhat's going to make you want to
get out of bed on a Wednesdaymorning in retirement, right?
So what's going to give yourlife meaning and purpose?
And that's going to bedifferent for everybody.
Maybe it is starting a vineyard, right, but maybe it's
(09:36):
caregiving for your grandkids,or maybe it's volunteering at
the local whatever charity orgroup you're interested in.
Maybe it's starting a newbusiness, maybe it's being an
artist, because you never hadtime for that before.
It really doesn't matter whatit is, as long as you can figure
out what it is.
(09:57):
Because the thing that so manypeople struggle with in
retirement, especially like Ilike your example of lawyers,
because I think they're a goodone Doctors are another one.
They have worked really longwork weeks right 60 hour, 80
hour work weeks for 30 plusyears of their life.
They didn't have time forhobbies before retirement and
(10:22):
their identity is really wrappedup in this career that they've
had.
And so then when you retire,you kind of go through this.
You know it's kind of like ahoneymoon period after you get
married.
This, you know.
Six to 18 months of this isgreat and I love this and
fantastic.
And then at some point you kindof go this is it.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
What's next?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, what's next?
Is this all?
Is this what I'm going to dofor the next 20 or 30 years of
my life?
Because if you, if you retireat 55, 60, 65, you're not
looking at a couple of years ofretirement, you're looking at a
couple of decades of retirement,and all that leisure is really
(11:09):
fun in the short term, butunlimited for decades you kind
of start going this is a littleboring and there's this sort of
nobody really needs me foranything, nobody really wants me
for anything, and that kind ofstarts to hurt your soul after a
while, because it's thatpurpose, that meaning that's
(11:32):
important, what's going to makeme want to get out of bed on
Wednesday morning.
And if nobody needs me foranything and nobody wants me for
anything and I don't haveanything that I'm going to go do
, staying in bed starts to lookpretty good.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
And that can be particularly challenging.
If you have a spouse that maybeneeds some, maybe has some
memory issues that are startingto develop or has some physical
restrictions, then restrictionsthen you know it's okay, they
need me, but this isn't what Iimagined.
You know, before they needed meand I got.
You know, I got praised for thethings that I did for people.
(12:09):
Now somebody needs me and Idon't get any.
I don't get any awards forcaring for my spouse, you know.
So that can be very challenging.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Absolutely, and caregiving can also be very
socially isolating.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Because if you're caregiving for someone 24 hours
a day, seven days a week, youmay not have time to go out and
socialize, you may not wantpeople coming into the home, and
so that sort of not only thework that that is, but also the
social isolation, can bedevastating for people's mental
health.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So I know you understand these concepts, but
it's something I always like tobring up.
There's two things when we endup having a caregiver spouse and
one spouse that needs care.
One is that tendency that youjust talked about to kind of
cocoon in the house, which isnot very healthy, and there are
a lot of options and servicesout there for folks to get
(13:09):
additional help, outside helpbut there's almost a stigma
which I hate and I wish that wecould get rid of that stigma
which I hate, and I wish that wecould get rid of that stigma.
But it really makes thingsworse if we just kind of cocoon
in the house.
The other thing is the kind oftendency of well, statistics at
(13:30):
least tell us that the caregiverspouse dies first, most of the
time because they're putting allthe pressure on themselves.
You know, the person with, maybeAlzheimer's or dementia or
something like that doesn't havethe ability to feel the stress
at the same level.
Maybe the caregiver spouse isnot getting good sleep at night,
things like that, and so bothof those things cocooning in the
(13:52):
house and not getting anyoutside help and taking on all
of the caregiving dutiesyourself often lead to a shorter
lifespan.
And now we end up with thespouse that needs the care not
having their.
You know, if the caregiverspouse dies first, then we're in
a much worse position.
So it's one of those thingsthat we really try to identify
(14:14):
and help people understand thatit really is best and it is
really important that we havesomething outside of your role
as a caregiver.
You have to have more than that.
You have to have respite, youhave to have a break.
You kind of have to bring insome help at whatever level that
is.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
I do want to talk about, since we kind of got to a
more depressing area of theconversation.
I want to talk about age bias.
I'll give you my thoughts on itin a second, but I know that
that's part of your conversation, that you have, and so let's
talk a little bit about the bias.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Well so age bias is ageism right?
It's a stereotype aboutsomebody based on their age, and
typically we think about itwith older people, although we
can have age bias againstyounger people as well, If we
look at somebody young and we go, oh, you're too young to know
anything or too inexperienced.
That's the same thing.
But it tends to get worse as weget older, particularly for our
(15:19):
older adults, as they and I'mlike for our teenagers, for our
people in their 50s, 60s, 70sand beyond.
The age bias starts and youstart to see it in things like
the workplace, when you get laidoff and it becomes much more
difficult to get rehired in yourface.
(15:40):
We start to see it inhealthcare when you go to the
doctor and you've got an ache ora pain or something's going on
and your doctor kind of goeswell, you know, you're getting
older, the kind of classicexamples.
But you see it all the time.
If you've been to the doctorwith your parent or your
grandparent and the nurse comesup to your loved one and says,
(16:00):
hey, sweetie, how are you today?
Aren't you looking so handsome?
That's elder speak and that isa form of age bias.
So it's really all around usand comes in multiple different
areas of our lives.
Honestly, quite hard to avoid.
And once you start reallypaying attention to age bias,
(16:24):
you start hearing it and seeingit kind of everywhere in your
life.
Because I have to tell you nowthat I've been in this field for
a while I, you know I listenedto the things that come out of
my own mouth and I go.
why did I say that?
But it's like it's so ingrainedwe just say these things or
(16:45):
think this way, without evenconsidering why we're doing that
.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Absolutely.
I agree, I catch myself onthese things too.
It's one of the things.
So in my office we have aprogram called Care Navigation,
which is a little bit similar tosome of the things that you do
in your field.
We have social workers on staffthat are doing care advocacy
for folks, and at the verybeginning of every interaction
(17:12):
with a new family I always askthem you know, okay, you've been
told dementia, have you gottenany kind of specific diagnosis?
And the vast, vast majority oftime the answer is no, and you
know, vast majority of time theanswer is no.
And you know dementia is acategory of diseases.
(17:37):
There's a variety of things, anda real diagnosis of what type
of dementia can be very helpfulfor setting expectations, having
the family understand what thelikely progress is and I know
that they can't do a perfectdiagnosis, and that's one of the
excuses that we often hear thatthe doctors and neurologists
give is that, well, we can'tgive a perfect diagnosis, okay,
well, what do you think you know?
Because it really would behelpful sometimes to know is
(17:58):
this vascular in trying to plotout our future and making sure
we're prepared for it?
And I do think it's age biaswhen the answer.
(18:19):
No one would ever say, hey, youhave cancer.
And you say, ok, well, whattype of cancer?
And they would say, well, itdoesn't matter.
No, you know, it matters,obviously.
And so it matters also withdementia.
And I think there's an age biaswhere we say, oh, you're old
anyway, who cares?
And I really dislike that aboutthe medical industry and even
(18:41):
the you know, the specialistindustry of neurologists and
things like that, that justaren't willing to share with the
family the specifics of thetype of dementia, and I do feel
like that's an H-bis, and oftenwe've got to push back on that
and say, okay, well, thank youfor the advice you've given us,
(19:01):
but we really need to know alittle bit more.
We're not expecting a hundredpercent perfect analysis,
because we know that's notpossible, but the vast majority
of time you can give us an ideaof what you think it is.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Right, Right.
And you know, the same thing istrue just in the medical field.
You know, not many doctors gointo geriatrics because
geriatrics is one of the poorestpaid specialties Is that right
and I think that's part of theage bias.
It's also the case that a lot ofwhen you're talking to new
(19:33):
doctors, they don't really wannago into geriatrics, not only
because that doesn't get paidvery well, but also because of
their own bias, right?
They think older adults will beharder to work with, they think
they'll be stubborn, they thinkthey won't listen, they think
they'll be too complicatedbecause they'll have too many
comorbidities, too manypre-existing conditions kind of
(19:57):
thing.
And you know, if you believeall those stereotypes because
that's what those things arethen yeah, it doesn't seem very
appealing to go work with olderadults.
But I think what a lot ofgeriatricians would actually say
is that older adults are reallyfun to work with in a lot of
ways because they areinteresting people with long
(20:20):
lives and all sorts of thingsthat differentiate them.
They're not just thisstereotype of cranky old people
that we have but that worksagainst us actually getting
geriatricians to specialize inworking with older adults,
because there's all thesefactors that are just really
(20:42):
bias and stereotypes workingagainst it.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So I want to shift gears a little bit, and it is a
good segue, because this is truefor folks with a loved one with
dementia, but it's also truefor everybody, whether there's
ever a dementia diagnosis or not.
I saw a TED Talk I don'tremember the speaker, but it was
(21:06):
a TED Talk that talked aboutquality of life, and so it was.
She actually talked aboutquality and quality.
The biggest predictor is socialconnections, having someone to
(21:33):
connect with.
You know, if we have that wherewe're just kind of secluded and
watch TV all day and don't getout of our chair, both the
quantity and quality of our lifeis as likely to be lost, and
her research showed us that,really, for both quality and
quantity, it's about how manyfriends you have, how many good
(21:56):
friends that you have, how manyyou know what's your family
relationships and how close theyare, and I think that that goes
hand in hand with what you'resaying.
Is that right?
Oh, yeah, I mean, and, as yousaid, there's what you're saying
?
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Is that right?
Oh yeah, I mean and, as yousaid, there's lots of research
on this now that you know,having social isolation is as
bad, if not worse, for you thansmoking a pack of cigarettes
every day.
I mean it's terrible for you andI think we see that with older
people and we saw it a lotduring COVID, when everything
shut down and older adults weresocially isolated, you know, for
(22:30):
their protection, but it wasreally terrible for their mental
and emotional health.
But we also, you know, you seeit more now even with young
people, where they talk aboutthe loneliness, crisis and
social isolation becauseeverybody's on their phone and
they're not interacting with oneanother.
Right, but there's a lot ofresearch too.
(22:50):
If you've ever looked into theblue zones, these are the areas
in the world where people livethe longest and there's a really
interesting documentary aboutthe blue zones.
They talk about what they eatand you know their nutrition and
all these things.
But the other thing that theseareas where people live the
longest have in common is theirsense of community and social
(23:14):
connection and that the olderadults are actively involved in
the communities that they livein.
They're not living in a nursinghome, separated out somewhere.
They're not sitting in theirhome, never interacting with
people.
They are integral parts of thecommunity.
They're getting up and they'reinvolved and they're doing
(23:35):
things every day, and thatsocial interaction is just as
important as any nutritionalprogram that we could put
somebody on.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, isn't that interesting.
So I so much appreciate DrCorinne, a gerontologist and
author of Teenagers, telling aNew Story About Aging.
Any final thoughts you want toleave our listeners?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
No, I don't think so.
I think we covered a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Well, I appreciate you being on our podcast.
If you enjoyed this podcast,don't forget to subscribe.
We're on every other week and anew podcast every other week.
We've got a couple of yearsworth of back podcasts and you
can sign on and listen to those.
But anywhere you listen topodcasts, you can register and
get noticed when we put out anew topic or a new guest.
(24:26):
So thank you for joining us atAdvice from your Advocates and
thank you for Dr Corinne Allmanbeing our guest today.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
And so I appreciate all the listeners and we'll see
you next time.
Thanks for listening.
To learn more, visitmanorlawgroupcom.
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