July 2, 2025 • 26 mins
The silent struggle of caring for both aging parents and growing children simultaneously affects countless Americans, yet few are prepared for the legal complications that arise. In this eye-opening episode, elder law attorney Bob Mannor and certified dementia practitioner Savannah Meksto unpack the challenges of the "sandwich generation" and provide critical guidance for avoiding costly mistakes.
Most families wait until a crisis hits before addressing essential legal preparations, often discovering too late that decades-old documents are insufficient or outdated. As Bob explains, having the right "lifetime documents" in place—specifically separate powers of attorney for medical and financial matters—is crucial before cognitive decline begins. Without these protections, families may face court proceedings that remove decision-making from their hands entirely.
The conversation tackles common misconceptions, like assuming the oldest child should automatically serve as power of attorney or naming multiple children simultaneously to avoid playing favorites. Instead, Bob recommends selecting individuals based on trustworthiness, capability, and willingness to serve, while establishing a clear order of succession. When family disagreements inevitably arise, professional moderation can prevent escalation to courtroom battles where everyone loses.
Beyond legal considerations, Savannah highlights the emotional toll on caregivers caught between multiple responsibilities. Self-care becomes essential, as does recognizing when professional support services are needed. Manor Law Group's care navigation team helps families identify appropriate care options and government benefits that can ease financial burdens.
If you find yourself nodding along or feeling that knot in your stomach, know that you aren't alone. The sandwich generation experience is challenging, but with proper legal planning and emotional support, you can navigate this journey with confidence and protect those who depend on you. Reach out to Manor Law Group today to develop a comprehensive plan before crisis strikes.
Host: Attorney Bob Mannor
Cohost: Savannah Meksto
Executive Producer: Savannah Meksto
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ABOUT US:
Mannor Law Group helps clients in all matters of estate planning and elder law including special needs planning, veterans’ benefits, Medicaid planning, estate administration, and more. We offer guidance through all stages of life.
We also help families dealing with dementia, Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, and other illnesses that cause memory loss. We take a comprehensive, holistic approach, called Life Care Planning. LEARN MO
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to Advice from your Advocates, a
show where we provide elder lawadvice to professionals who work
with the elderly and theirfamilies.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to Advice from your Advocates.
I'm elder law attorney BobManor and I'm here with Savannah
Mexico, a certified dementiapractitioner.
Today we're going to do a newseries on something that so many
of you are quietly dealing withbeing stuck in the middle.
We call it the sandwichgeneration, and it can be very
difficult when you're takingcare of your parents and you're
(00:27):
taking care of your kids.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, that's absolutely right, bob.
It's a real challenge raisingyour own family while also
stepping into a caregiving rolefor your parents.
The emotional toll is real, butthe legal landmines that is
where I think people getblindsided.
Today we're going to walkthrough the most common mistakes
that families make and also howto protect yourself and your
loved ones before a crisis hit.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And you know, that's a really good point, savannah,
because we really do have tothink about this when we talk
about sandwich generation.
The issue is that it's notalways obvious, like it could be
, that our parents are gettingolder.
We're not necessarily caringfor them, but we know that
that's a possibility in thefuture and so we're trying to
raise our kids.
(01:10):
We know our parents are gettingolder.
They need a little bit of help.
Sometimes they're asking for,you know, help with making sure
that their bills get paid,things like that.
But the idea is it really isvery important to try to make
sure that you have the legalplan in place before a crisis
takes hold, especially ifthere's any indication of
(01:31):
dementia or Alzheimer's oranything like that which so many
of us are facing, and it canget to the point where they
might not be able to sign legaldocuments.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So I like how you mentioned that being a sandwich
generation caregiver doesn'tnecessarily mean that your
parent is living with you in thehome, because I think that's a
common misconception.
You know, if you might think,oh well, they're not living with
me, I wouldn't consider myselfa caregiver, but really you kind
of are.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, and so one of the things we notice is, you
know, when it comes to families,obviously there's small
families, there's big families.
When it comes to families,obviously there's small families
, there's big families.
But you know, regardless of thesize of the family, there's
usually one or two kids thatstep up and are willing to help
out.
And sometimes it's simplygeography.
You know, if somebody lives inCalifornia, it's going to be
really a lot more difficult forthem to be day to day helpful
(02:20):
for their parents, and sosometimes it's geography,
sometimes it's just.
You know, I don't want todiscount the folks that can't
provide that daily help, becausewe've all got kids and dogs and
jobs and everything else, andso it can be very difficult, but
what we do find is that it'soften one or two of the kids
(02:41):
that will be really involved andthe other kids just kind of
follow along, at least you know,unless hopefully, they follow
along.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So and it's not, you know, necessarily the day to day
activities of care.
It could be making certaindecisions, managing the finances
, even helping find documents.
Bob, why do you think that somany people who are in this
stage of life wait until there'sactually a crisis before they
step in and realize, hey, thisis a situation and I'm living in
(03:09):
it and I'm kind of stressed.
Why do you think that so manypeople wait until they get to
that before they take a nextstep?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, you know, I think you're raising some really
good issues here, because whenit let's, let's dive a little
bit into the legal you know partof it, the legal documents.
It is so important to haveupdated legal documents if
you're going to be trying tohelp your parents and a lot of
us kind of think of this forwhatever reason.
(03:35):
Culturally, we seem to thinkthat, you know, once we went to
a lawyer 30 years ago, thatshould be sufficient and
somewhere there's probably somedocuments, somewhere there's a
will, somewhere there might be apower of attorney, things like
that.
And the reality is that's a badthought process.
We should not be saying, youknow, if mom and dad say, oh,
(03:57):
yeah, yeah, we did that, youknow, 30 years ago, whatever,
when you guys, because probablythe will says you know it's when
the kids were five years oldand it also says that their aunt
is going to be, you know,caring for them.
So it's one of those thingsthat does need to be updated.
You and I we talk a lot aboutthis, that there's the, what I
call the lifetime documents, andthen there's the you know what
(04:20):
happens when I die?
Most people focus on the whathappens when I die, right, and
that's actually not what we'retalking about here.
We really want to talk aboutwhat happens for the lifetime
documents.
I know and this is something Ithought a lot about through the
years I would have never wantedto go into a courtroom and have
(04:40):
one of my parents declaredincompetent.
It's just something that Iwould never want to do.
And so you don't need to if youhave the proper legal documents
in place.
Okay, and so we're going tostart with that.
When we talk about the sandwichgeneration, I'm having trouble
saying sandwich, but when wetalk about that, it is one of
those things where it'simportant that the person who's
(05:03):
willing and able and trustworthyto step up to help mom and dad
have that legal authority to doso.
It doesn't work when just momsays OK, well, you know, I'm
appointing you.
You can't just verbally say it.
It doesn't work when we havesome old legal document that
hasn't been updated in years.
In fact, you know some of theseforms.
(05:24):
The law changes, in fact, as faras power of attorney, the law
changed just in as of July 1stof 2024, they passed a new power
of attorney law in Michigan,and so it is very important that
we have these what I calllifetime documents.
When I say that, let me mentionwhen I call them lifetime
documents, they expire when theperson expires.
(05:46):
So sometimes people will callme up and say, well, I'm mom's
power of attorney and she diedlast week.
Well, no, you're not mom'spower of attorney anymore,
because power of attorney is alifetime document.
It's giving somebody authorityto help during someone's
lifetime.
It does not have any effectafter death.
But it is very important thatwe have those and that they are
updated from time to time.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So that power of attorney, it's critical.
It sounds like that folks getthat in line as soon as you
think that there could be anychance that you're in the
sandwich generation, maybebefore it starts.
And we actually, you know, hereat the firm we say that anyone
over the age of 18 shouldactually have that power of
attorney and some of thoselifetime documents in place.
Isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Absolutely.
I mean, the thing is, if youhave somebody you love and trust
, we should probably have themappointed to be able to step in
in an emergency, and so there'sactually two separate powers of
attorney that need to be doneone for medical and one for
financial and they're completelyseparate documents.
You cannot have one documentthat does both things.
It has to be one for medicaland one for financial, and
(06:51):
pretty much if you're over 18and something bad happens, you
get in a car accident, you getinto some trouble, whatever it
is, it's nice to have somebodythat you love and trust that
would be able to step up andhelp you out.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Absolutely, and as of right now.
You know I'm not quite sandwichgeneration, but I know it's
coming for me soon.
I have my oldest daughter's 22.
You know, my parents are intheir 60s and so I am one who
want to encourage my daughterand my parents to get the power
of attorney.
You know, and myself yeah, goodpoint.
So I think that it would beimportant to talk about some of
(07:23):
these pitfalls, these legallandmines for sandwich
generation caregivers.
What would happen if, maybe,the parents don't have a power
of attorney?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, so you know, if you're inclined, if you're here
on this show and you'reinclined to raise this issue,
the big question is, you know,are your parents likely to
follow your suggestion?
Is there going to be anyturmoil in the family where you
know your brother thinks that heshould be the power of attorney
and you think you should be thepower of attorney?
(07:53):
We have to address those typesof things, but the idea behind
this is that it should be aquestion that you raise and so,
like you say, you might not evenbe ready for it.
You know parents in 60s,they're doing just fine, but at
some point most of us are goingto need some help and at some
point most of us are going toneed if we live long enough,
we're going to need theassistance of someone we love
(08:15):
and trust.
And so it's better to raisethese issues.
When everybody can be involvedin the conversation, everybody
can be involved in theconversation.
So you know, I'm sure in aminute we're going to be talking
about well, what if we're notall in agreement?
What if we don't have theperfect family that everybody
holds hands and agrees oneverything?
But the idea behind it is thatis something that is worth
(08:36):
raising the question if you'rein even you know your situation,
where you have, you know youhave some kids, you got parents
that are still perfectly, youknow, able, and it's if they
don't have any legal documentsin place.
It's probably a good idea toraise that issue Because if
something bad happens, if therewas a, you know I don't like to
(08:58):
imagine terrible thingshappening, but you can imagine a
stroke or even the onset of,you know, dementia or
Alzheimer's, anything like thatwe might end up having to go
into court, which is fine, it'sjust.
It's so much.
Most of the time we want tokeep family decisions and family
matters in the family and keepthe government out of it is the
idea behind this.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Absolutely.
Now, speaking of you know legaland decisions.
What happens if maybe theparents name the wrong person on
the power of attorney?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I've been doing thisfor a while and so sometimes I
try to get, I try to be not justthe you know they talk about an
attorney being a counselor, andso I try to be the counselor
also and give folks advice onwho they should choose, because
(09:49):
occasionally I'll get folks inand usually it's, you know, it's
the older folks that will saywell, I have to name my oldest
son, or something like that.
Or I have to name my oldestchild.
Well, no, you really don't, youshould name the person that is
the most suitable.
And so I have a couple of, youknow, standards that we should
think about when we're pickingwho we're going to name as our
(10:12):
helper, as our advocate underpower of attorney or health care
advocate.
And the first one is the mostobvious, which is do we trust
them?
Are they, are they capable?
Which is do we trust them, arethey capable?
And so you know.
Then the next question if wesay, well, all of my kids are
trustworthily incapable, great,fantastic.
I'm glad to hear that.
Next is going to be who'swilling?
(10:37):
And I know that's a tough thingto say because you kind of hope
all of your kids would bewilling.
But in my experience that's notalways true.
It's you know, who is who'sgoing to be the person that
would step up, and it's notalways the most obvious person.
So sometimes people come in andsay, well, my, you know, my, my
, my daughter's an accountant,my son's a doctor or whatever
Great.
Are they going to have the timeand willingness to step up to
(10:59):
act on your behalf if calledupon?
And so occasionally the answeris yeah.
Well, my daughter doesn't havethose same credentials, but she
lives next door.
And so sometimes it's you know,who's willing, who's convenient
.
It's not always who'sconvenient.
Sometimes we pick the personwho does live in California,
even though that's not asconvenient.
They might be the right personbecause they're capable and
(11:22):
willing.
And so you know it starts offwith who's trustworthy, who's
capable, and then the nextquestion is who's willing to
step up?
Who do we think would actuallydo the work necessary?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And the power of attorney can be changed right.
It's not like an end-all,be-all document, you know,
unless I'm sure there's caveatswhere it is.
List multiple people in there,not all together.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I'll come back on that issue for a second.
But we list them one at a time.
But we definitely want to putbackups in there, one of the
things I see frequently becauseyou know, parents don't want to
show favoritism, so they'll sayI'm going to list all three of
my kids.
They all have this authority.
Oh, that's a bad idea.
Oh, this is really a bad idea.
(12:27):
Do not.
I highly recommend it's not.
First of all, under the medicalpower, the law in Michigan says
you have to list one person at atime.
You cannot have multiple peoplelisted as the agent or the
reporter, the person who's goingto give the answers to the
doctors as far as what yourmedical care would be, if you're
not capable of making thatdecision yourself.
(12:48):
So under the medical document,the patient advocate or
healthcare power of attorney,you have to list an order of
priority.
Under the financial one,legally, you could list multiple
people.
It's a really bad idea to dothat for a bunch of reasons.
Number one is it's less likelythe bank's going to accept it,
(13:09):
because if it says that allthree of my kids have equal
authority, then if I were theattorney for the bank, I would
advise the bank not to doanything unless all three of
them sign off on everytransaction, and that could be
very inconvenient if you'reincapacitated and somebody needs
to pay your water bill thismonth to have you know you think
about it.
You know this isn't just bigdecisions like are we going to
(13:32):
sell the house, this is littledecisions, like you know,
signing a check to pay the waterbill.
And so it's impractical for youto have multiple people on
there, especially because, asyou know, the bank or the
financial company, they may notwant to do anything unless they
have unanimous consent.
Even if that's not what yourdocument says, your document
(13:54):
might say they each have equalauthority and they can act
independently.
Say they each have equalauthority and they can act
independently.
It's you know.
Just it's a bad idea from thatstandpoint.
Secondly, it's a bad idea tohave three people in charge of a
checkbook, right, unless youknow if everybody's writing
checks out of the checkbook.
That's not.
It's going to be harder tobalance that checkbook.
I really strongly recommend.
(14:15):
I strongly recommend that if,when you do a financial power of
attorney, that you pick oneperson and then you list backups
and if that one person can't doit for a while, they can step
aside and let one of the backupsdo it, but the idea is having
multiple people as power ofattorney is actually a can cause
all kinds of troubles andconflict and things like that.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I can just imagine from.
You know, I have three siblingsand I know that even on good
days we don't always get alongand see eye to eye.
So I can't even imagine, withadding the stress of like, oh my
gosh, mom is sick and needscare, or you know, now there's a
financial crisis and addingthat stressor to things I
already know we're not going toget along.
So that's great advice, bob forsure.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Well, let's talk about that a little bit.
I know that this is one of theissues that you had listed for
us to talk about today, which iswhat if there's not a full
family?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
agreement.
What if they disagree?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So here's my answer.
I'm going to give you what Ithink is the best answer, which
is let's sit around a tabletogether and have a family
conversation, and it's somethingthat we do in our office, where
you know me, or one of theother attorneys in the office
can sort of be the moderator ofthat meeting.
Because what often happensthere's a couple different
things that can happen whenthere is especially when there's
(15:32):
the stress of a parent whoneeds help, a parent that is
starting to have some memoryissues or things like that, and
the first thing that happens iseverybody will give you advice.
You're the person at thegrocery store, you're a barber,
you're a hairstylist, whatever.
Everybody has their own story,and so it ends up where
(15:54):
everybody has these ideas.
A lot of them are wrong.
I'll be honest with you.
A lot of the ideas are wrong.
I often tell the story aboutbeing at my barber one day and
this guy comes in and says well,boy, you know, I don't know
what to do about my mom.
I know that, you know shereally can't live alone anymore.
She's going to need some help.
And the barber you know, Ididn't say anything right away,
(16:17):
but the barber said well, I'lltell you what to do.
Just get all of our money outof the bank and hide it.
Oh boy, that's a bad idea.
That's really the worst idea.
First of all, if you try tohide the money and then apply
for government benefits to payfor care, that's called a felony
, isn't?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
that fraud yeah felony.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We don't really generally like felonies, so I
did I try not to get into otherpeople's conversations, but in
that case I did, you know, speakup and say you know, that's
probably not a good idea and youknow, here's my credentials.
So one of the things is that issomething that we can do in our
office.
We can have a family meeting,and I'd much rather have a
family meeting and haveeverybody sit around a table.
We got this big round table inthe office.
Everybody sit around the tableand kind of have their say, and
(17:03):
so that we can, you know, getclarity, because I think a lot
of the family disputes are aboutcommunication and
miscommunication and peoplehaving ideas that might be not
accurate.
And so, because the alternativeis, you end up in court and
everybody is going into court,and in my experience, here's
what happens.
(17:23):
You know, people go watch TVand they see these courtroom
dramas and somebody always winsand somebody.
You know that's not the way itreally works in court.
Most of the time, if the familyis arguing, the judge is pissed
, probably going to say none ofyou, none of you are going to
have the authority, we're goingto appoint some stranger, you
know, financial professional tobe in charge of the money and
(17:46):
everybody loses because now notonly does the family not have
the say on you know how, howmoney is spent or where mom or
dad's going to live, or you knowthings like that, but also now
we got to pay that financialprofessional and that's eaten up
part of the you know part ofthe money that could go for
protecting mom and dad.
(18:07):
So you know, it's so much betterto have to sit down, have
everybody kind of say theirpiece, and sometimes that can be
very difficult without amoderator.
If it's just you know familysitting down can, it can
deteriorate.
But I have done this going on30 years now and I can see when
things are starting to go southand then I can try to really,
(18:29):
you know, settle things down alittle bit, because as soon as
it starts getting into the angerand the resentment and whatever
it is, you know it's hard tohave those rational decisions.
And because my expectation is,everybody's actually probably
wants what's best for mom anddad, you know, or mom or dad,
whatever it is.
But it's easy to get caught upin the emotion of things, and so
(18:53):
that is a service that we dooffer people is.
I'd much rather have that sitdown with the whole family than
having to, you know, have adispute about it later on.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, that's fantastic and a lot of those
thoughts and myths that theycarried into this emotion can be
dispelled because there's anexpert right there in the room
who can answer to some of thosethings.
Not only is it the emotionalstuff, but some of those legal
misconceptions.
Let's just put the kibosh andall work together, you know, to
move forward and make thingsbetter.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Exactly, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So if you're just tuning in, you're listening to
advice from your advocates, andtoday we're talking about
sandwich generation, caregivingand just the legal and now the
emotional toll that can have onsomeone who is put into that
position or might be put intothat position soon.
So for people who are in thesandwich generation, they're
caring for a parent, they'realso caring for their own
(19:47):
children.
Not only are they probablyfeeling guilt maybe they had to
miss something a parent-teacherconference or a t-ball game
Maybe they feel bad that mom'sbeen here in this care center
and I haven't been able to visitthis week, oh my gosh.
And you just sort of feel tornin a few different directions
and you also probably don't havea lot of time to care for
yourself.
(20:07):
You might be just exhausted,you might be resenting the
situation as a whole.
Of course you don't resent yourparent or your children, but
just the fact that you're stuckin the middle and just managing
all of this.
It can be really overwhelming.
Bob, what are some things thatpeople can do to sort of help
that emotional chaos that'shappening as a generation?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
caregiver.
Yeah well, first of all, youknow, I think it's important to
acknowledge the family membersthat are, you know, actively
helping out mom and dad andrealizing how difficult that is
and hopefully giving them anopportunity to do some self-care
.
And it could be that it's notthe kids, it could be it's the
(20:50):
spouse, and so now we need torecognize and a lot of times if
it's a married couple andthey'll say I'm fine, I'm fine,
you know, I've taken care of myspouse for this many years, I
can do it.
Now it is incrediblychallenging and sometimes,
especially if there's dementiaor something like that, it's a
24-hour job and because theperson might not be sleeping at
(21:13):
night, they might be awake at 3am and so it can be incredibly
challenging.
So one of the things I alwaysencourage is number one make
sure that they have, whoever thecaregivers are, that they have
time for self-care, that theyhave time to recuperate.
But the second thing is that weconsider and do our best to
(21:35):
figure out ways to get some help, get some outside care.
You know, I think so many of usjust assume oh well, you know,
it's family, we got to take careof family, you know it's.
There's lots of reasons whyprofessional caregivers exist
and hire in a company that couldcome in and help out, or even
considering moving into anassisted living or memory care
(21:57):
things like that.
It's people feel very guiltyabout even saying those things
out loud, but the reality is youknow you're going to the person
that you care for, that it'smom or dad or your spouse or
whatever.
They're going to be better offwith you in this world than if
you stress yourself out to thepoint where you get sick or die,
and so it's very important thatyou take care of yourself, and
(22:20):
one of the things we do at ManorLaw Group is that we help
people find ways to pay for thatcare, because one of the
biggest objections is well, Idon't know how we're going to
pay for this.
Well, there's resources outthere.
There's government benefitsthat we can help people qualify
for.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, absolutely, and I love that.
Not only do we help peoplefigure out how they're going to
pay for that, but we alsoconnect them with other
resources we can advocate forfamilies who just aren't sure
what direction to go, because Ithink you know, if I'm picturing
myself as a sandwich generationcaregiver my grandfather had
dementia and I was one of hiscaregivers, so I think it's a
little bit easier for me thanother folks, because I do know
(22:55):
some of those firsthandstruggles and a lot of the
confusion that my grandmotherand aunts and uncles were going
through at this time was justwhat do we even do?
Where do we start?
How do we navigate all of this?
There's so many things that heneeds, there's so many options
and it's a lot.
It's a lot for anyone on a goodday, but when you're stressed
already, my goodness, that's somuch, and so we can help with
(23:17):
that, bob, and I think it wouldbe great if you just sort of
explained a little bit aboutwhat our care navigation team
can do for folks.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, exactly I like that.
You used the word navigate,because that's what we call our
team, is care navigation, and soit's a little different.
Most people wouldn't thinkyou'd have care navigators in a
law firm, but we found that itis actually very helpful for a
couple different reasons.
Number one is it is just a mazeof trying to figure out what's
(23:44):
the best options.
Do we bring care into the house?
Do we, you know?
Do we look at independentliving, assisted living, memory
care?
Do we look at?
You know?
There's a program called PACEor a program called WAVER.
Trying to figure all that outin of itself can be incredibly
challenging, but then there goesto the other element too, which
(24:04):
is even just advocating forbetter care.
So we have social workers onstaff at our office and they are
there to help people navigatethis whole process.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Wonderful.
So we're wrapping up the end ofthis conversation and we could
go on and on, and in fact we'regoing to, because our next few
episodes are going to be on thissame sandwich generation
subject and there's a lot totalk about.
But today, if you're listeningto this and you're nodding your
head or you're just feeling thatknot in your stomach, just know
that you are not alone.
The sandwich generation is realand it's exhausting, but you
(24:38):
don't have to do it without aplan.
The earlier you get thatsupport legally, emotionally,
the more control you have later.
So I would really love for youto just contact our firm.
You can call us if you do needhelp, 1-800-990-6030.
And I hope that you join usnext time.
Thanks again for listening toAdvice from your Advocates on
103.9 the Fox.
(24:59):
If you want to learn more again, head to our website,
manorlawgroupcom, or call us at1-800-990-6030.
We've got your back becauseyou've got everyone else's.
Did you know the average stayin a nursing home costs over
$10,000 a month?
Planning for long-term care canbe overwhelming, but it's
crucial to protect your family'sfuture.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Hi, I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a board certified elder lawattorney and certified dementia
practitioner.
At Manor Law Group, wespecialize in helping families
plan for dementia care, stateplanning and protecting their
assets from the rising costs oflong-term care.
We can guide you throughcreating a plan that ensures
that your loved ones receive thecare that they need without
losing everything that they'veworked so hard for.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
At Manor Law Group, we believe in giving you peace
of mind for the future.
From wills and trusts toMedicaid planning, we're here to
make sure your family isprotected.
At Manor Law Group, we're morethan just a law firm we're
advocates.
From wills and trusts toMedicaid planning, we're here to
make sure your family isprotected.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Give us a call today and let us help you plan with
confidence.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Call Manor Law Group at 1-800-990-030 or visit us
online at manorlawgroupcom.
800-990-6030 or.
Manorlawgroupcom.
Manor Law Group your advocatesfor life's most important
decisions.
Thanks for listening.
You're listening to Advice from your Advocates, a
show where we provide elder lawadvice to professionals who work
with the elderly and theirfamilies.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to Advice from your Advocates.
I'm elder law attorney BobManor and I'm here with Savannah
Mexico, a certified dementiapractitioner.
Today we're going to do a newseries on something that so many
of you are quietly dealing withbeing stuck in the middle.
We call it the sandwichgeneration, and it can be very
difficult when you're takingcare of your parents and you're
(00:27):
taking care of your kids.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, that's absolutely right, bob.
It's a real challenge raisingyour own family while also
stepping into a caregiving rolefor your parents.
The emotional toll is real, butthe legal landmines that is
where I think people getblindsided.
Today we're going to walkthrough the most common mistakes
that families make and also howto protect yourself and your
loved ones before a crisis hit.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And you know, that's a really good point, savannah,
because we really do have tothink about this when we talk
about sandwich generation.
The issue is that it's notalways obvious, like it could be
, that our parents are gettingolder.
We're not necessarily caringfor them, but we know that
that's a possibility in thefuture and so we're trying to
raise our kids.
(01:10):
We know our parents are gettingolder.
They need a little bit of help.
Sometimes they're asking for,you know, help with making sure
that their bills get paid,things like that.
But the idea is it really isvery important to try to make
sure that you have the legalplan in place before a crisis
takes hold, especially ifthere's any indication of
(01:31):
dementia or Alzheimer's oranything like that which so many
of us are facing, and it canget to the point where they
might not be able to sign legaldocuments.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So I like how you mentioned that being a sandwich
generation caregiver doesn'tnecessarily mean that your
parent is living with you in thehome, because I think that's a
common misconception.
You know, if you might think,oh well, they're not living with
me, I wouldn't consider myselfa caregiver, but really you kind
of are.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, and so one of the things we notice is, you
know, when it comes to families,obviously there's small
families, there's big families.
When it comes to families,obviously there's small families
, there's big families.
But you know, regardless of thesize of the family, there's
usually one or two kids thatstep up and are willing to help
out.
And sometimes it's simplygeography.
You know, if somebody lives inCalifornia, it's going to be
really a lot more difficult forthem to be day to day helpful
(02:20):
for their parents, and sosometimes it's geography,
sometimes it's just.
You know, I don't want todiscount the folks that can't
provide that daily help, becausewe've all got kids and dogs and
jobs and everything else, andso it can be very difficult, but
what we do find is that it'soften one or two of the kids
(02:41):
that will be really involved andthe other kids just kind of
follow along, at least you know,unless hopefully, they follow
along.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
So and it's not, you know, necessarily the day to day
activities of care.
It could be making certaindecisions, managing the finances
, even helping find documents.
Bob, why do you think that somany people who are in this
stage of life wait until there'sactually a crisis before they
step in and realize, hey, thisis a situation and I'm living in
(03:09):
it and I'm kind of stressed.
Why do you think that so manypeople wait until they get to
that before they take a nextstep?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, you know, I think you're raising some really
good issues here, because whenit let's, let's dive a little
bit into the legal you know partof it, the legal documents.
It is so important to haveupdated legal documents if
you're going to be trying tohelp your parents and a lot of
us kind of think of this forwhatever reason.
(03:35):
Culturally, we seem to thinkthat, you know, once we went to
a lawyer 30 years ago, thatshould be sufficient and
somewhere there's probably somedocuments, somewhere there's a
will, somewhere there might be apower of attorney, things like
that.
And the reality is that's a badthought process.
We should not be saying, youknow, if mom and dad say, oh,
(03:57):
yeah, yeah, we did that, youknow, 30 years ago, whatever,
when you guys, because probablythe will says you know it's when
the kids were five years oldand it also says that their aunt
is going to be, you know,caring for them.
So it's one of those thingsthat does need to be updated.
You and I we talk a lot aboutthis, that there's the, what I
call the lifetime documents, andthen there's the you know what
(04:20):
happens when I die?
Most people focus on the whathappens when I die, right, and
that's actually not what we'retalking about here.
We really want to talk aboutwhat happens for the lifetime
documents.
I know and this is something Ithought a lot about through the
years I would have never wantedto go into a courtroom and have
(04:40):
one of my parents declaredincompetent.
It's just something that Iwould never want to do.
And so you don't need to if youhave the proper legal documents
in place.
Okay, and so we're going tostart with that.
When we talk about the sandwichgeneration, I'm having trouble
saying sandwich, but when wetalk about that, it is one of
those things where it'simportant that the person who's
(05:03):
willing and able and trustworthyto step up to help mom and dad
have that legal authority to doso.
It doesn't work when just momsays OK, well, you know, I'm
appointing you.
You can't just verbally say it.
It doesn't work when we havesome old legal document that
hasn't been updated in years.
In fact, you know some of theseforms.
(05:24):
The law changes, in fact, as faras power of attorney, the law
changed just in as of July 1stof 2024, they passed a new power
of attorney law in Michigan,and so it is very important that
we have these what I calllifetime documents.
When I say that, let me mentionwhen I call them lifetime
documents, they expire when theperson expires.
(05:46):
So sometimes people will callme up and say, well, I'm mom's
power of attorney and she diedlast week.
Well, no, you're not mom'spower of attorney anymore,
because power of attorney is alifetime document.
It's giving somebody authorityto help during someone's
lifetime.
It does not have any effectafter death.
But it is very important thatwe have those and that they are
updated from time to time.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
So that power of attorney, it's critical.
It sounds like that folks getthat in line as soon as you
think that there could be anychance that you're in the
sandwich generation, maybebefore it starts.
And we actually, you know, hereat the firm we say that anyone
over the age of 18 shouldactually have that power of
attorney and some of thoselifetime documents in place.
Isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Absolutely.
I mean, the thing is, if youhave somebody you love and trust
, we should probably have themappointed to be able to step in
in an emergency, and so there'sactually two separate powers of
attorney that need to be doneone for medical and one for
financial and they're completelyseparate documents.
You cannot have one documentthat does both things.
It has to be one for medicaland one for financial, and
(06:51):
pretty much if you're over 18and something bad happens, you
get in a car accident, you getinto some trouble, whatever it
is, it's nice to have somebodythat you love and trust that
would be able to step up andhelp you out.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Absolutely, and as of right now.
You know I'm not quite sandwichgeneration, but I know it's
coming for me soon.
I have my oldest daughter's 22.
You know, my parents are intheir 60s and so I am one who
want to encourage my daughterand my parents to get the power
of attorney.
You know, and myself yeah, goodpoint.
So I think that it would beimportant to talk about some of
(07:23):
these pitfalls, these legallandmines for sandwich
generation caregivers.
What would happen if, maybe,the parents don't have a power
of attorney?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, so you know, if you're inclined, if you're here
on this show and you'reinclined to raise this issue,
the big question is, you know,are your parents likely to
follow your suggestion?
Is there going to be anyturmoil in the family where you
know your brother thinks that heshould be the power of attorney
and you think you should be thepower of attorney?
(07:53):
We have to address those typesof things, but the idea behind
this is that it should be aquestion that you raise and so,
like you say, you might not evenbe ready for it.
You know parents in 60s,they're doing just fine, but at
some point most of us are goingto need some help and at some
point most of us are going toneed if we live long enough,
we're going to need theassistance of someone we love
(08:15):
and trust.
And so it's better to raisethese issues.
When everybody can be involvedin the conversation, everybody
can be involved in theconversation.
So you know, I'm sure in aminute we're going to be talking
about well, what if we're notall in agreement?
What if we don't have theperfect family that everybody
holds hands and agrees oneverything?
But the idea behind it is thatis something that is worth
(08:36):
raising the question if you'rein even you know your situation,
where you have, you know youhave some kids, you got parents
that are still perfectly, youknow, able, and it's if they
don't have any legal documentsin place.
It's probably a good idea toraise that issue Because if
something bad happens, if therewas a, you know I don't like to
(08:58):
imagine terrible thingshappening, but you can imagine a
stroke or even the onset of,you know, dementia or
Alzheimer's, anything like thatwe might end up having to go
into court, which is fine, it'sjust.
It's so much.
Most of the time we want tokeep family decisions and family
matters in the family and keepthe government out of it is the
idea behind this.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Absolutely.
Now, speaking of you know legaland decisions.
What happens if maybe theparents name the wrong person on
the power of attorney?
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I've been doing thisfor a while and so sometimes I
try to get, I try to be not justthe you know they talk about an
attorney being a counselor, andso I try to be the counselor
also and give folks advice onwho they should choose, because
(09:49):
occasionally I'll get folks inand usually it's, you know, it's
the older folks that will saywell, I have to name my oldest
son, or something like that.
Or I have to name my oldestchild.
Well, no, you really don't, youshould name the person that is
the most suitable.
And so I have a couple of, youknow, standards that we should
think about when we're pickingwho we're going to name as our
(10:12):
helper, as our advocate underpower of attorney or health care
advocate.
And the first one is the mostobvious, which is do we trust
them?
Are they, are they capable?
Which is do we trust them, arethey capable?
And so you know.
Then the next question if wesay, well, all of my kids are
trustworthily incapable, great,fantastic.
I'm glad to hear that.
Next is going to be who'swilling?
(10:37):
And I know that's a tough thingto say because you kind of hope
all of your kids would bewilling.
But in my experience that's notalways true.
It's you know, who is who'sgoing to be the person that
would step up, and it's notalways the most obvious person.
So sometimes people come in andsay, well, my, you know, my, my
, my daughter's an accountant,my son's a doctor or whatever
Great.
Are they going to have the timeand willingness to step up to
(10:59):
act on your behalf if calledupon?
And so occasionally the answeris yeah.
Well, my daughter doesn't havethose same credentials, but she
lives next door.
And so sometimes it's you know,who's willing, who's convenient
.
It's not always who'sconvenient.
Sometimes we pick the personwho does live in California,
even though that's not asconvenient.
They might be the right personbecause they're capable and
(11:22):
willing.
And so you know it starts offwith who's trustworthy, who's
capable, and then the nextquestion is who's willing to
step up?
Who do we think would actuallydo the work necessary?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And the power of attorney can be changed right.
It's not like an end-all,be-all document, you know,
unless I'm sure there's caveatswhere it is.
List multiple people in there,not all together.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I'll come back on that issue for a second.
But we list them one at a time.
But we definitely want to putbackups in there, one of the
things I see frequently becauseyou know, parents don't want to
show favoritism, so they'll sayI'm going to list all three of
my kids.
They all have this authority.
Oh, that's a bad idea.
Oh, this is really a bad idea.
(12:27):
Do not.
I highly recommend it's not.
First of all, under the medicalpower, the law in Michigan says
you have to list one person at atime.
You cannot have multiple peoplelisted as the agent or the
reporter, the person who's goingto give the answers to the
doctors as far as what yourmedical care would be, if you're
not capable of making thatdecision yourself.
(12:48):
So under the medical document,the patient advocate or
healthcare power of attorney,you have to list an order of
priority.
Under the financial one,legally, you could list multiple
people.
It's a really bad idea to dothat for a bunch of reasons.
Number one is it's less likelythe bank's going to accept it,
(13:09):
because if it says that allthree of my kids have equal
authority, then if I were theattorney for the bank, I would
advise the bank not to doanything unless all three of
them sign off on everytransaction, and that could be
very inconvenient if you'reincapacitated and somebody needs
to pay your water bill thismonth to have you know you think
about it.
You know this isn't just bigdecisions like are we going to
(13:32):
sell the house, this is littledecisions, like you know,
signing a check to pay the waterbill.
And so it's impractical for youto have multiple people on
there, especially because, asyou know, the bank or the
financial company, they may notwant to do anything unless they
have unanimous consent.
Even if that's not what yourdocument says, your document
(13:54):
might say they each have equalauthority and they can act
independently.
Say they each have equalauthority and they can act
independently.
It's you know.
Just it's a bad idea from thatstandpoint.
Secondly, it's a bad idea tohave three people in charge of a
checkbook, right, unless youknow if everybody's writing
checks out of the checkbook.
That's not.
It's going to be harder tobalance that checkbook.
I really strongly recommend.
(14:15):
I strongly recommend that if,when you do a financial power of
attorney, that you pick oneperson and then you list backups
and if that one person can't doit for a while, they can step
aside and let one of the backupsdo it, but the idea is having
multiple people as power ofattorney is actually a can cause
all kinds of troubles andconflict and things like that.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I can just imagine from.
You know, I have three siblingsand I know that even on good
days we don't always get alongand see eye to eye.
So I can't even imagine, withadding the stress of like, oh my
gosh, mom is sick and needscare, or you know, now there's a
financial crisis and addingthat stressor to things I
already know we're not going toget along.
So that's great advice, bob forsure.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Well, let's talk about that a little bit.
I know that this is one of theissues that you had listed for
us to talk about today, which iswhat if there's not a full
family?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
agreement.
What if they disagree?
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So here's my answer.
I'm going to give you what Ithink is the best answer, which
is let's sit around a tabletogether and have a family
conversation, and it's somethingthat we do in our office, where
you know me, or one of theother attorneys in the office
can sort of be the moderator ofthat meeting.
Because what often happensthere's a couple different
things that can happen whenthere is especially when there's
(15:32):
the stress of a parent whoneeds help, a parent that is
starting to have some memoryissues or things like that, and
the first thing that happens iseverybody will give you advice.
You're the person at thegrocery store, you're a barber,
you're a hairstylist, whatever.
Everybody has their own story,and so it ends up where
(15:54):
everybody has these ideas.
A lot of them are wrong.
I'll be honest with you.
A lot of the ideas are wrong.
I often tell the story aboutbeing at my barber one day and
this guy comes in and says well,boy, you know, I don't know
what to do about my mom.
I know that, you know shereally can't live alone anymore.
She's going to need some help.
And the barber you know, Ididn't say anything right away,
(16:17):
but the barber said well, I'lltell you what to do.
Just get all of our money outof the bank and hide it.
Oh boy, that's a bad idea.
That's really the worst idea.
First of all, if you try tohide the money and then apply
for government benefits to payfor care, that's called a felony
, isn't?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
that fraud yeah felony.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We don't really generally like felonies, so I
did I try not to get into otherpeople's conversations, but in
that case I did, you know, speakup and say you know, that's
probably not a good idea and youknow, here's my credentials.
So one of the things is that issomething that we can do in our
office.
We can have a family meeting,and I'd much rather have a
family meeting and haveeverybody sit around a table.
We got this big round table inthe office.
Everybody sit around the tableand kind of have their say, and
(17:03):
so that we can, you know, getclarity, because I think a lot
of the family disputes are aboutcommunication and
miscommunication and peoplehaving ideas that might be not
accurate.
And so, because the alternativeis, you end up in court and
everybody is going into court,and in my experience, here's
what happens.
(17:23):
You know, people go watch TVand they see these courtroom
dramas and somebody always winsand somebody.
You know that's not the way itreally works in court.
Most of the time, if the familyis arguing, the judge is pissed
, probably going to say none ofyou, none of you are going to
have the authority, we're goingto appoint some stranger, you
know, financial professional tobe in charge of the money and
(17:46):
everybody loses because now notonly does the family not have
the say on you know how, howmoney is spent or where mom or
dad's going to live, or you knowthings like that, but also now
we got to pay that financialprofessional and that's eaten up
part of the you know part ofthe money that could go for
protecting mom and dad.
(18:07):
So you know, it's so much betterto have to sit down, have
everybody kind of say theirpiece, and sometimes that can be
very difficult without amoderator.
If it's just you know familysitting down can, it can
deteriorate.
But I have done this going on30 years now and I can see when
things are starting to go southand then I can try to really,
(18:29):
you know, settle things down alittle bit, because as soon as
it starts getting into the angerand the resentment and whatever
it is, you know it's hard tohave those rational decisions.
And because my expectation is,everybody's actually probably
wants what's best for mom anddad, you know, or mom or dad,
whatever it is.
But it's easy to get caught upin the emotion of things, and so
(18:53):
that is a service that we dooffer people is.
I'd much rather have that sitdown with the whole family than
having to, you know, have adispute about it later on.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, that's fantastic and a lot of those
thoughts and myths that theycarried into this emotion can be
dispelled because there's anexpert right there in the room
who can answer to some of thosethings.
Not only is it the emotionalstuff, but some of those legal
misconceptions.
Let's just put the kibosh andall work together, you know, to
move forward and make thingsbetter.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Exactly, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
So if you're just tuning in, you're listening to
advice from your advocates, andtoday we're talking about
sandwich generation, caregivingand just the legal and now the
emotional toll that can have onsomeone who is put into that
position or might be put intothat position soon.
So for people who are in thesandwich generation, they're
caring for a parent, they'realso caring for their own
(19:47):
children.
Not only are they probablyfeeling guilt maybe they had to
miss something a parent-teacherconference or a t-ball game
Maybe they feel bad that mom'sbeen here in this care center
and I haven't been able to visitthis week, oh my gosh.
And you just sort of feel tornin a few different directions
and you also probably don't havea lot of time to care for
yourself.
(20:07):
You might be just exhausted,you might be resenting the
situation as a whole.
Of course you don't resent yourparent or your children, but
just the fact that you're stuckin the middle and just managing
all of this.
It can be really overwhelming.
Bob, what are some things thatpeople can do to sort of help
that emotional chaos that'shappening as a generation?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
caregiver.
Yeah well, first of all, youknow, I think it's important to
acknowledge the family membersthat are, you know, actively
helping out mom and dad andrealizing how difficult that is
and hopefully giving them anopportunity to do some self-care
.
And it could be that it's notthe kids, it could be it's the
(20:50):
spouse, and so now we need torecognize and a lot of times if
it's a married couple andthey'll say I'm fine, I'm fine,
you know, I've taken care of myspouse for this many years, I
can do it.
Now it is incrediblychallenging and sometimes,
especially if there's dementiaor something like that, it's a
24-hour job and because theperson might not be sleeping at
(21:13):
night, they might be awake at 3am and so it can be incredibly
challenging.
So one of the things I alwaysencourage is number one make
sure that they have, whoever thecaregivers are, that they have
time for self-care, that theyhave time to recuperate.
But the second thing is that weconsider and do our best to
(21:35):
figure out ways to get some help, get some outside care.
You know, I think so many of usjust assume oh well, you know,
it's family, we got to take careof family, you know it's.
There's lots of reasons whyprofessional caregivers exist
and hire in a company that couldcome in and help out, or even
considering moving into anassisted living or memory care
(21:57):
things like that.
It's people feel very guiltyabout even saying those things
out loud, but the reality is youknow you're going to the person
that you care for, that it'smom or dad or your spouse or
whatever.
They're going to be better offwith you in this world than if
you stress yourself out to thepoint where you get sick or die,
and so it's very important thatyou take care of yourself, and
(22:20):
one of the things we do at ManorLaw Group is that we help
people find ways to pay for thatcare, because one of the
biggest objections is well, Idon't know how we're going to
pay for this.
Well, there's resources outthere.
There's government benefitsthat we can help people qualify
for.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, absolutely, and I love that.
Not only do we help peoplefigure out how they're going to
pay for that, but we alsoconnect them with other
resources we can advocate forfamilies who just aren't sure
what direction to go, because Ithink you know, if I'm picturing
myself as a sandwich generationcaregiver my grandfather had
dementia and I was one of hiscaregivers, so I think it's a
little bit easier for me thanother folks, because I do know
(22:55):
some of those firsthandstruggles and a lot of the
confusion that my grandmotherand aunts and uncles were going
through at this time was justwhat do we even do?
Where do we start?
How do we navigate all of this?
There's so many things that heneeds, there's so many options
and it's a lot.
It's a lot for anyone on a goodday, but when you're stressed
already, my goodness, that's somuch, and so we can help with
(23:17):
that, bob, and I think it wouldbe great if you just sort of
explained a little bit aboutwhat our care navigation team
can do for folks.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, exactly I like that.
You used the word navigate,because that's what we call our
team, is care navigation, and soit's a little different.
Most people wouldn't thinkyou'd have care navigators in a
law firm, but we found that itis actually very helpful for a
couple different reasons.
Number one is it is just a mazeof trying to figure out what's
(23:44):
the best options.
Do we bring care into the house?
Do we, you know?
Do we look at independentliving, assisted living, memory
care?
Do we look at?
You know?
There's a program called PACEor a program called WAVER.
Trying to figure all that outin of itself can be incredibly
challenging, but then there goesto the other element too, which
(24:04):
is even just advocating forbetter care.
So we have social workers onstaff at our office and they are
there to help people navigatethis whole process.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Wonderful.
So we're wrapping up the end ofthis conversation and we could
go on and on, and in fact we'regoing to, because our next few
episodes are going to be on thissame sandwich generation
subject and there's a lot totalk about.
But today, if you're listeningto this and you're nodding your
head or you're just feeling thatknot in your stomach, just know
that you are not alone.
The sandwich generation is realand it's exhausting, but you
(24:38):
don't have to do it without aplan.
The earlier you get thatsupport legally, emotionally,
the more control you have later.
So I would really love for youto just contact our firm.
You can call us if you do needhelp, 1-800-990-6030.
And I hope that you join usnext time.
Thanks again for listening toAdvice from your Advocates on
103.9 the Fox.
(24:59):
If you want to learn more again, head to our website,
manorlawgroupcom, or call us at1-800-990-6030.
We've got your back becauseyou've got everyone else's.
Did you know the average stayin a nursing home costs over
$10,000 a month?
Planning for long-term care canbe overwhelming, but it's
crucial to protect your family'sfuture.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Hi, I'm Bob Manor.
I'm a board certified elder lawattorney and certified dementia
practitioner.
At Manor Law Group, wespecialize in helping families
plan for dementia care, stateplanning and protecting their
assets from the rising costs oflong-term care.
We can guide you throughcreating a plan that ensures
that your loved ones receive thecare that they need without
losing everything that they'veworked so hard for.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
At Manor Law Group, we believe in giving you peace
of mind for the future.
From wills and trusts toMedicaid planning, we're here to
make sure your family isprotected.
At Manor Law Group, we're morethan just a law firm we're
advocates.
From wills and trusts toMedicaid planning, we're here to
make sure your family isprotected.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Give us a call today and let us help you plan with
confidence.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Call Manor Law Group at 1-800-990-030 or visit us
online at manorlawgroupcom.
800-990-6030 or.
Manorlawgroupcom.
Manor Law Group your advocatesfor life's most important
decisions.
Thanks for listening.
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