What if the key to financial empowerment for women in Nigeria lies in one woman's journey from a police barracks to the boardroom? Join us as we welcome Ifoma Uddoh, the founder and CEO of SheCluded, a pioneering fintech credit company transforming the financial landscape for Nigerian women. Ifoma shares her poignant personal story of resilience, shaped by the early loss of her father and her mother's strength, to the highs and lows of her career—from PwC to launching SheCluded. Her narrative is a testament to grit and innovation, offering invaluable lessons on overcoming adversity and the power of determination.
Discover how a chance conversation pivoted Ifoma from a pharmacy hopeful to a tech trailblazer, despite not owning a personal computer during her studies. Her internships at Echo Bank and Diamond Bank fine-tuned her resilience and work ethic, while her role at PwC opened doors to a wider world of tech investing and exposed the glaring gender disparities in funding. Ifoma's eye-opening experiences in tech investing revealed how women juggle multiple roles and face unique challenges in entrepreneurship, igniting her passion to create a financial platform catered specifically to women.
In our conversation, Ifoma delves into the genesis and growth strategy of SheCluded, spurred by the personal challenges she faced during her third pregnancy. She lays out her vision for scaling the company and forming strategic partnerships across Africa to enhance women’s banking services. The discussion also tackles the subconscious biases in lending and the innovative use of alternative data to support female entrepreneurs. Ifoma’s insights on mindset shifts, business coaching, and networking provide a blueprint for aspiring women entrepreneurs. Tune in for an inspiring episode that underscores the transformative power of perseverance and vision.
Ifeoma studied Industrial mathematics at the Federal University of Technology (FUTO), Owerri in Nigeria and has a Masters in Management Science and Operational research from Lancaster University in the UK. She was named Top 5 female Entrepreneurs by UK Tech Hub in 2020. The recipient of the Google Black Founders Fund in 2021 and winner of the 2022 Select USA Tech Pitch competition, she was recently named a 2024 Echoing Green Fellow.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi there and welcome to another episode of African
Business Stories.
Africa is the only region inthe world where more women than
men choose to be entrepreneurs.
What this says to me is thatthe story of business in Africa
is the story of the Africanbusiness woman.
So we are on a journey ofdiscovery to find these women
(00:23):
and tell their stories.
On the show, we will hear fromfemale innovators and
entrepreneurs building andrunning businesses in Africa.
They will share the highs andlows of their entrepreneurial
journey and lessons learnedalong the way.
Some of these women you mayknow and many you may not, but I
(00:48):
assure you that all theirstories are inspiring in their
own right.
My hope is that these storieswill inspire you to reach for
your dreams and leave a legacyfor generations to come.
It makes such a big differenceto us if you can rate, review
and share our episodes.
You can do this mainly on ApplePodcasts, and you can find us
on all podcast platforms Ifyou're in Africa.
(01:09):
Spotify is now available, socheck us out there and don't
forget to rate, review and shareOn the show.
Today I chat with Ifoma Udo, thefounder and CEO of SheCluded, a
fintech credit company inNigeria.
We talk about an earlychildhood tragedy that shaped
(01:30):
the person she is today.
We trace her career trajectoryfrom PwC into the Nigeria
fintech ecosystem and how shelanded on the idea of SheCluded,
a company focused on improvingthe influence and finance
strength of female entrepreneurs.
Since it launched in 2019,shecluded has built a community
(01:51):
of over 200,000 women, deployedover 1 billion naira in loans
and, in 2023, launched theSheCluded Hub in Lagos, nigeria.
The daughter of a teacher, shedoesn't miss the opportunity to
share lessons and insights fromevery experience or story.
Let's get into it.
Welcome to African BusinessStories.
(02:13):
Thank you for having me, kego.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Thank you.
I feel like this conversationis long overdue, long overdue,
so I'm glad that we could maketime to finally sit down, you
know, and talk about yourbusiness journey.
So thank you again.
I believe that a lot of thingsthat impact how we show up in
the world flows from theexperiences we've had, and I
know that for you, you lost yourdad early and I wonder what
(02:41):
that experience I don't know howyoung you were when he passed
and how that shaped growing upfor you- so I was nine years
when my dad died, and apart fromthat so my dad grew up in a
home where it was for five boys,so he never had a sister.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So when I was born, my mom was like gosh.
She was like this is the bestthing in his life.
So I want you to know that Iwas daddy's girl.
You know I knew that my daddycould die for me and I was the
princess, and I think that's theway I grew up and waking up one
day my dad traveled andwhenever my dad travels he comes
(03:19):
back in the night.
He wakes me up, so it's likeyou know me and my dad.
We're lovers me off.
So it's like, you know, we haveme and my dad were lovers.
So one time he traveled and henever came back and my mom was
27 and we're four kids.
I remember coming back fromschool that day and I saw my
uncle in my house with my mombehind, and then my uncle told
(03:42):
me the story about my dad goingto heaven.
At first I was just sad, but Ithought that it was it.
You know, I don't know what Ithought.
I thought that everything wouldchange back, but it just didn't
, and I think that that wholeexperience taught me that the
only person that will be withyou to the end of your life is
yourself Experience.
(04:03):
I should take myself seriously.
That's what I went on to dowith myself.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I'm sorry.
I know it's been a long time,but I still have to say I'm
sorry for your loss, justthankful that you had the
opportunity to experience timewith your dad at least.
Thinking about your childhood,you know, are there some fond
childhood memories that you wenton to experience, so I mean
growing up.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
My dad was a policeman, so I grew up in the
barracks yes, and the barracksknow what it used to be now.
It used to be like big and itused to be like clean and happy.
You know communal life.
And my dad was deployed topolice college in keja and he
teach taekwondo, okay.
So after school, by threeo'clock we walked to the police
(04:52):
field to do taekwondo and thenit was like um, I remember um,
the junior staff coming to myhouse, maybe to cut grass, and I
can remember my dad coming intopolice college and everybody's
standing attention.
So it was like it felt like avery prestigious job.
So my dad had a prestigious joband that's why, you know, when
(05:13):
conversations about like policeand army and you know some sort
of conversation, I'm emotionalabout it because that's not what
I saw growing up.
Then other fond memories was Ithink that one of the heroes in
my story was my mom.
Like, I was a daddy's girl andI just knew that he had this
wife in the house that loved mybrother and I quickly saw her
(05:39):
evolve into somebody that Ididn't know was there and I
didn't know how much that wasuntil one time, I think, when I
was as a teenager, I would go torelatives' house to stay so
that you know when I'm going toschool.
They would give me money forschool.
And I can remember going to oneof my cousins' house in Sulari
(06:01):
to stay and help them with achild and they brought in a new
nanny and she was crying everyday and one day, you know, I
called her and said, hey, what'sup like?
Is it that you're not happy?
Tell me and tell me your story.
And she said that her dad diedand her mother ran away because
they had she had five children,so the five of them, they had to
(06:22):
go to the uncle dad's brotherand then they had to give them
out because there's nobody totake care of them.
And immediately my eyes openedand my mom actually ran away.
It made me realize that painand just your life falling apart
can cause people trauma thatthey forget who they are, can
(06:47):
cause people trauma that theyforget who they are.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And throughout that journey, I think it just made me
feel like hey thank god, mymummy did not like run away, so
yeah, so I had one childhood, sowhat did you aspire to be?
You had this dad who was apolice officer, who was so well
respected, and, and so what didyou aspire to be when you were
um?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
so when my dad was alive, I think my only
aspiration was to be a princesswow, so I mean after my dad died
and I went to the university.
What did I aspire to be?
I think that at some point Iaspired to be a pharmacist.
So, um, we had this relative,emzo, so you know, she was rich
and successful and I always knew.
(07:28):
I think after my dad died, Iknew one thing I was going to be
rich and successful.
That's always been where I knewI was going to be.
How.
I didn't know how.
So I wanted to be here andbecome another big pharmacist.
Um, but something happened Oneday.
One of my mom's friends came.
I wrote the first jam.
I didn't get it and the secondjam.
(07:51):
I was about to fill the formand one of my mom's friends came
visiting and he was asking whatare you doing?
What is your plan?
And I said I wanted to studycomputer science.
I wanted to study pharmacy,sorry.
And he said what about computerscience?
Wanted to study pharmacy, sorry.
And he said what about computerscience?
That computer is going to bethe biggest thing.
Blah, blah, blah.
He said talking about computers.
I've never heard anything likethat before and I said this
(08:18):
sounds like the best place to beand that's how I filled in
computer science wow so Iswitched immediately to computer
science and I went to like forFUTO.
Um, when I did my admission inFUTO what I applied for was
computer science and I got intomathematics and computer science
(08:38):
department.
So year one, year two, we didum foundation and we did
different things on computermathematics and I quickly
realized that by the third yearwe had to choose a major.
I didn't have a computer.
My mom could not afford acomputer.
And here I was writing for transevery day and I just thought to
(09:03):
myself and I said you know whatI can't do?
Computer science, because Ithere's no point writing a
programming, and that's how Iwent to do mathematics.
so I had a major so even thoughour department is maths and
computer science.
My major now became industrialmaths.
I had a major in mathematics,so it showed how and that's why
(09:25):
I'm passionate about likedeploying capital to things that
matter for people, Because upto today I feel like a computer
will have made a big difference.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Wow.
So what did career look likefor an industrial mathematician
Interesting?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So, in school, my only target was to make it to
one.
So I made sure I was thatbookworm.
You know, like you know,triangular student, church
school, my hostel, church school, my hostel.
I was that boring, I justwanted to make good grades.
I didn't know where.
I think I came out at the erawhere I showed that if you make
a good grade you get a good job.
That was what I had when I wasgrowing up Get a good grade and
(10:04):
get a good job.
And so my goal at that time wasjust to get good grades.
So when I finished, I came outand I came back to Lagos,
because I schooled in FutoO'Hare but my parents and we
grew up in Lagos.
So when I finished, I came backto Lagos and I know everybody
was thinking about relaxing andI was thinking, hey, I need to
get a job.
(10:24):
And I know everybody wasthinking about relaxing and I
was thinking, hey, I need to geta job.
I've been working since mysecond year.
I worked at Echo Bank.
I remember my first job was8,000 a year.
I was so fat and I came backand I remember.
So we used to have water issuesand I bought this black butter
for us to store water in thekitchen and I felt proud, so
(10:44):
proud of myself that I'm finallycontributing to the family.
So that sort of like built myresilience.
Then, my fourth day, I workedin Diamond Bank.
Having superiors at that time Imean not like this the way it
is now.
Having superior at that timethat can say, hey, sit right, oh
(11:05):
, tuck in your shirt, oh, go andbuy food for me, taught me so
many things that I fear thatmaybe these generations might
think that are not necessary,but they actually you know
contributed to who I was youknow this saying I take to the
age to raise a child is actuallytrue.
So when I finished I came outand I was looking for the best
(11:28):
paying job sorry if you.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
What kind of work were you doing?
Um, when you were working likediamond bank, for example, what
kind of work were you doing?
I'm assuming that was part-timebecause you were studying.
Yes, it was internship.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So second year we had three months internship and
fourth year we had six monthsinternship.
So for my internship, as secondyear, we had a three-month
internship and fourth year wehad a six-month internship.
So for my internship secondyear, I was in Diamond Echo Bank
.
Then, by my fourth year I wasin Diamond Bank.
So for the first one I was theteller, so deposit money.
I can remember my first mistakeon the job.
(12:00):
Somebody came for a bank draftdraft and I undercharged them
and I remember my manager at theend of the day, finally, I
undercharged them by how much?
So it was something like I feltthat maybe 1,000 something.
I didn't think it was that big,but she was really frustrated
until I said, hey, I was goingto pay for it and she now said
okay, so I paid for it.
(12:23):
I think every time people ask mewhat are one of the things that
changed my journey and my storyfrom a barricade, um, from a
police, um, from police and mymom was a primary school teacher
before she started doingbusiness is the fact that you
know one, when I got into schoolI was trying to put it.
You know people, educationschool doesn't matter, but it
(12:44):
teaches you skills to just stayin.
I stayed in and I was like, oh,this is book, I need to try and
make good grades, I need to putin the effort.
Then when I finished I got intoPwC.
I felt that it was anothermajor step in the way that I in
my story, because I got into anopportunity where it was sort of
(13:04):
like the elite and it changedmy thinking.
And when I got into PwC I stillworking I saw like rich kids, I
saw smart kids, smartest peoplearound the world.
I saw things that I never wouldhave said if I was not in PwC
in fact to say how.
PwC impacted me.
You know I was the what nextgirl because this wasn't where I
was going to.
(13:24):
I'd finished, but confirmedthat PwC still working.
I was like, no, I need toincrease my salary by 3x.
And I looked at the trajectoryand I said another job to get
another job, to be very mobile,I needed a master's.
So I was thinking of master's,master's, master's.
I couldn't obviously affordanything abroad and you know I
(13:46):
was applying for local masters.
I actually got into AfricanUniversity of Science and
Technology on a World Bankscholarship for masters but I
went in there and it was likepure maths.
And I was like gosh, I don'twant to do pure maths, I don't
want to end up lecturing.
And I came back to PWC and oneday at work I was sitting down
and I saw them say, hey,congratulations Onyeka.
(14:09):
And I asked her what happenedand they said she got a full
scholarship to LSE to studysomething in human resources
that you know.
It included stipends and somany other things.
And I remember thinking and andsaying, wow, this girl is lucky
, this is possible.
No, I said this girl is luckyand her parents are even rich.
(14:30):
And one mind said, what if youcan get a scholarship?
And that's when I was like waita minute, I thought it was for
special people.
And something said, I mean, youcan as well, just try, you
never can tell.
And I said, I mean you can aswell, just try, you never can
tell.
And I started applying toschools in the UK.
I got a scholarship toLancaster University.
(14:51):
So I feel like that wholeexperience taught me that just
being in the right place withthe right people can rub off
things that you never can tellwhere they can take you to.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
That is so incredible .
That is such an amazing story.
You know being in the rightenvironment can influence how
you think and how your life andyour career progresses.
So you finish your master's,you come back to Nigeria.
Do you go back to PwC or do youfind that I wanted to go?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
back to PwC.
Then my friend in PWC said hey,there's this thing called tech
startups and there's one that'slooking for people smart people
to join and blah, blah, blah.
And I talked to Jason and Ifelt that if I go back to PWC, I
know the road that I was goingto end up in.
(15:43):
But this thing sounds exciting.
And Jason's energy wascontagious.
You know, he felt like he wasbreathing.
The next, you know, whatever itis, you know this, this?
And I said, hmm, this soundsgood.
And also I mean, I'd learnedanalytics, I'd finished my
master's, and I just felt like Iwanted somewhere to demonstrate
what I was doing.
You, you know, like just to seethat mathematics is actually
(16:03):
applied to things, real lifethings.
So I said you know what?
And I went and joined Jason inIroko and that was how I
stumbled into the tech sector.
Another lesson I learned fromthat was she recommended me for
that job because I worked withher in PwC and when I was
working with her, even thoughshe was more senior, I showed up
(16:25):
and I tried to show up.
Well, so your pairs are yourfirst sponsors and stuff.
People are getting that andthat was very key for me and in
Iroko it was.
It made me fall in love withbuilding.
I was seeing the whole.
We're trying to build a website.
(16:46):
We're trying to build, createsomething.
I just liked it.
I learned so much from thatwhole experience of trying to
create something new and it mademe feel like you know what I
think I like startups, you know.
I think that was where I likeyou know, because, you see, you
know, people work in bigcompanies and sometimes they
don't get to see the rippleeffect of their daily decisions.
(17:10):
I liked the fact that I couldsee the daily.
You know when I come to thewebsite.
And then it was movies.
I could look at the data andsay, hmm, all the movies on the
homepage, this is receiving theless click.
What's the problem?
I think there's a problem withthis movie.
I will click it and maybethere's no sound, as in.
(17:32):
I saw how so many times peoplevisit a media site and they
think that it's just a fancypage.
But actually there's a lot ofanalytics that goes into what
should be there, what shouldn'tbe there.
I mean just knowing that, hey,if you want to make $100,000,
where to place your marketingads, just knowing that customers
(17:53):
have retention Nigeria movieshave a retention curve at some
point, so you need to be able todo it.
Just knowing when to put SS,when not to put SS, and being
able to use data to show thatdecision.
For me it was pretty exciting.
So how long were you at UOK?
I was there for a year and afew months before I got my next
(18:16):
job.
So someone I worked with in PwCsaid hey, there's this guy, Femi
Akinde.
He started a company in Nigeriaand he's looking for somebody
to run the Nigerian operationsand I wanted to know if you were
interested in it.
And I said, okay, let's have achat.
And I remember chatting withFemi and feeling like, hmm, this
(18:41):
sounds like another opportunityto build something.
And that was it for me.
That was the attraction for me.
I went to Femi and we startedtrying to build a slim trader
and it was fun.
It was also a lot of learning,a lot of disappointments so you
know when people think aboutentrepreneurship and why they
(19:02):
give up.
I feel that the journey with myother experiences taught me that
this is a very high and lowkind of experience.
You know, it's like I felt likeI was given the opportunity to
see people.
That people you know.
You know how sometimes you seepeople in front of the papers
and you're like man, this guy isit?
Ah, he reaped 10 milliondollars, um, 50 million dollars.
(19:25):
He's building this.
He's speaking in panels.
I sat down closely with them andI saw that they were human.
Maybe right before that pressrelease the site went off, or
right before this.
So I was there serving them andI could see and I felt that
when I was, when I started myjourney and when I started
working with women, I noticedthat that was a very vital set
(19:46):
of information and that was aprivilege for me, because I saw
that the game is imperfection.
You're building in Nigeria,with all the challenges, knowing
.
I feel like one of the thingsthat women entrepreneurs
struggle is like.
I mean, all their life they'vetold them that people like
(20:06):
perfect women and everything hasto be perfect.
That's why they like ironingtheir clothes, tying their
ghillie very well, making theirmakeup, everything.
But doing business in Nigeriais dirty, it's imperfect, far
from perfect, and sitting downand seeing these people and
helping them, you know, andmaking sure I do my own role to
(20:29):
make sure that everything works,was, I think it was a privilege
for me Just being able to bethere, and it was something that
I realized when I startedChiclo.
It was a learning point.
You know how, like, sometimes Ifeel like.
Oh, I should say thank you tomy all my former bosses and I
hope that they know that whenour success story is being
(20:52):
mentioned, they should say yes,that's part of what I did well.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So I know that before where I'm itching to get into
the whole story.
But just one more experiencefrom your past I think is
relevant to touch on, just toadd more color to your story,
because you have quite aninteresting background.
You then went at some point tobe COO of a seed funding company
yes that's the way I thinkthat's.
(21:18):
Did I get it right?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
so I mean after spending, I think, over three
years with Femi.
I went on maternity leave and Icame back and obviously because
I was I mean you can imaginebeing in a company for over
three years, having not goneanywhere I was the it man and I
remember coming off of maternityleave and the people on there
have been promoted.
And I remember having thatconversation with my boss.
(21:42):
I said, see, femi, you wereaway for like six months.
We had to do something.
And I and and he was right thatwas the right thing to do at
the time, because I'm a very I'mthe kind of person that what
has to be done has to be done.
The company has to move on.
And I feel like when I cameback, I just felt like it was
time for me to look for anotheradventure.
(22:03):
And I saw an ad for a seedfunding company looking for a
CEO and I went for the interview.
I remember going for theinterview the first time and I
was like I don't think I want towork here.
The second time the guy calledme and said, hey, come for the
interview.
And I said no, I'm notinterested, that's not what I
(22:27):
want to work.
And it also showed me theimportance of having a good HR
person.
The guy really persuaded me andsaid you should come for this
interview even if you don't wantthe job, just come.
Our boss or CEO wants to meetyou.
Blah, blah, blah and I came forthe interview and I met Collins
on Weibo and we had a chat andI felt like this guy is grounded
and I felt like I wanted youknow I'd played in the game, in
(22:50):
the startup game.
You know the whole BS startups.
I've done it and this felt likean opportunity to be on the
other side and.
I see what it was like.
So I said you know what, let'sget in, and that's how I got
into.
That's how I got into, that'swhy I took the role.
It was a fantastic role for mebecause I was sitting on the
(23:12):
other side.
For once, I understood what itwas like to deploy capital.
I understood what it's like tovet a lot of applications and
just try to look for the best.
I started learning how to meetpeople, how to just be on the
other side, and I think it waswhen I was doing that job that I
started saying where are thewomen?
(23:33):
Before then I'd never paidattention to where are the women
.
But I remember the first day Icame for the meeting, you know,
and they had this big table,executive table and I noticed I
was the only female on thattable and I was like wait hmm,
okay, this is weird.
And I started looking around, Istarted getting pitch tech and I
(23:54):
started seeing I think this wasaround 2015, when it was like
Nigerian tech was hot I mean,they would give people money
just for thinking of tech andmaybe three months later the
company is closed.
And I'm like, and all thismoney was going to men.
And I sat down and said youknow what?
I want some of this money to goto women too.
And I quickly realized thatgenuinely, there were like there
(24:17):
were no women.
You know how it's like you getwomen and she's not qualified.
No, we did not get.
The best woman that I met in2015 was dami shutlass.
She has gone on to raise fourmillion dollars, but I can
remember then seeing her and hercoming to be to us and I was
thinking, oh wow, this girl,this girl is bold and I want to
(24:41):
know that at that time, I'dnever you know how it has never
flashed my mind to be anentrepreneur.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So when did you start thinking seriously that you
wanted to do this?
Because here you are, at a job,you are the one deploying
capital.
You see, this gap where thewomen, where the women.
And then how did this idea ofstarting a business, you know,
take root?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So I mean, I was one of those women that they say
have to lose cash in theiraccount.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So one day.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I remember sitting down with my seatmate that was a
manager in the manager's cornerand he said hey, how about this
?
money in your account and I saidyes, and I said, okay, why
don't you invest it?
And I said, oh, what's that?
And he sent me this damn biginvestment and I said, okay, I
tried to put money in there.
And the next day he came andsaid, hey, I have a problem, can
you lend me money?
And I did and he paid and aftera while in the office it's like
(25:39):
when people had issues theysaid, hey, lend me money, I'll
pay you on payday.
Hey, lend me money, I'll payyou on payday.
And we stayed doing that.
I realized that I was happy thatit solved their problem.
At the time.
You know, maybe someone wouldsay my mother, this, this, I had
an impulsive barrier and stuff.
I just liked it.
You know they would give me andthey would say thank you so
much.
I mean just then.
(25:59):
And I liked it.
And I was pregnant around thattime with my third baby and for
me, I quickly started realizingthat with each pregnancy I felt
like I got less confident.
You know the whole.
I used to be like that girlthat worked 24 hours.
You know, if you had me on yourteam, it's like I need to
deliver, like you know howpeople say they get there, I get
(26:21):
my, I get fulfillment frombeing valuable.
So I was that person.
I was.
If I was on your team, I had toshow up and I noticed that with
each child it felt like gosh.
I was juggling so many ballsand I couldn't think about it
and it hit me so you know how,moving from a mindset that women
were absent because they werejust not putting in the work,
(26:43):
and by my third child I realizedthat women were upset because
they were juggling so many ballsand they couldn't cope.
I felt sorry for for takingtheir absence as not being like.
They were not determined.
It made me feel like I don'tknow.
It just made me feel bad.
And then I saw and Iexperienced firsthand what I
felt that an average woman wouldhave experienced.
(27:04):
I was pregnant for my thirdchild.
I had two babies, a lot wasgoing on in my life.
I had to show up at work andlook normal and for me it just
felt like, wow, this is whatwomen go through and knowing
that many of them would neverget funding just felt like gosh.
I need to to change this and Istarted doing a lot of research
(27:28):
on saying that.
You know women.
You know where, where are thefunding for women?
Where?
What's happening in that?
And I noticed I was the samething with other financial
services, like credit, like uminsurance, like women were just
not using it and and for me itdidn't make sense because I come
from a mathematics background.
(27:49):
If the population of Africa andNigeria is 50% approximately
50% men and 50% women and 95% ofthe startups fail, it means
that we have no sufficient datato prove that the other half of
the population is incapable ofmaking change.
(28:11):
Do you understand what I mean?
Like from a pure scientificpoint of view?
That was my driver.
I just felt like nobody hastested these demographics to see
what can they do, and I wasbrooding over it.
And I remember at the time whenI felt like, hey, I think I was
brooding over it.
And I remember at the time whenI felt like, hey, I think I was
brooding over it so much and Iwas thinking at my job, things
(28:32):
were evolving.
The company was evolvingbecause by that time, the
investing tech bubble and somany companies closing was
coming down, so everybody's eyeswas clearing and everybody was
like, okay, maybe we need to bemore cautious with tech and just
breathing a bite.
One day I think I felt like goand start a company that's for
(28:53):
women and I was like nothinglike that existed at that time.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
What year were we?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
in 2018.
I said, you know, first of all,start a company.
Like seriously of all thepeople start a company.
I mean it felt like the biggestjoke.
You know, I'd never seen myself.
I'd seen myself sitting down ata table.
You know World Bank, ifc,signing big policies.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
But you know how I've seen myself as a CEO.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
No, that hasn't crossed my mind that's like for
crazy people.
So, but they.
I can remember the first person.
I told that, hey, I wanted togo and start a finance company
that's just focused on women.
And the person said how can youdo that?
That's not profitable, that'snot, that doesn't make sense.
And I said, yeah, this guy isright.
How can you start a business?
Are you cut out 50 of thepopulation?
(29:44):
Well, every time I went to myquiet place to see you know what
, what kind of business, whatkind of what do I want to do?
Next?
It's going to start a companyfor women.
And after a while I just saidyou know what?
I was getting older to noticethat I don't think that.
Um, I have time.
You know how, when you startgetting old, I think at that
(30:05):
time I was over 30 and Irealized that, wait a minute,
the chorus is actually time, notmoney.
So I said you know what?
I would start a company and Iwould try it out, and if it
doesn't work out, I'll go andget a job.
And that's how I startedChicloaded you know.
I remember the few people Ipitched at the time to say, hey,
I wanted to do Chiclo Dead.
(30:26):
It sounded very weird to themand I thought about you know
what, how do I start this?
And I said I needed to showthat my point of view works,
Like a female-focused financialservices can actually move the
needle in terms of funding oraccess to finance for women.
And I remember going towithdraw all my investments and
(30:50):
all my and saying that I want toput it as the capital to be
able to deploy and yeah, that'sit.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So where did you get the name she cluded from?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
so when I uh, when I was thinking about it, the name
and that's the name of our um,that's the name that was on our
first CAC document was included.
I wanted to include more peopleinto finance.
So one day I was brainstormingwith my colleague then Victor,
he does design and stuff and Isaid no, because it's for women.
(31:21):
We need to make the name looklike it's for women and that's
how we say know, we say she, notsay she included yes instead of
included, and we said, yeah,that sounded nice.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
So just going back to coming up with your business
case and selling it at a timewhen it wasn't, you know.
Today, you know talking aboutwomen-focused businesses is a
thing, you know you can build awhole career around it, but what
was that like for you in acountry like Nigeria?
I mean, when I startedSheCluded.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I mean, the capital was my money, so it was like
fine, but I noticed quickly thatthere was a gap.
I mean, when I focused onbuilding the tech and everything
, I thought that the women wouldcome, but they didn't.
And quickly I realized that Ihad to do more and I went to
that meeting with women.
(32:12):
I remember asking somebody oh,where can I find women?
And the person said go toInstagram.
And I went to download and Isaw a lot of women and I started
chatting them to say, hi, doyou need money to grow your
business?
And I saw a lot of women and Istarted chatting them to say hi,
do you need money to grow yourbusiness?
And many of them said, you know, yes, but you know they don't
want a loan.
You know, their grandmothertook a loan and she died of the
loan, you know.
I started noticing that, thegaps in information.
(32:34):
I quickly noticed that theworldview for women and the
worldview that I was used to,based on my work experience and
based on the tables I sat, werevery different and that's why
interventions made for women,especially women entrepreneurs
in Africa, we feel like the waythat a typical woman
entrepreneur thinks and the waythat a normal person has been
(32:55):
incorporates that down thing isvery different.
So I started trying to learnand trying to see the how to
reach them, how to communicatewith them, who are their role
models, because the role modelsin our world and the role models
in their world is verydifferent.
Like you know, it was reallylike how do I?
It was really me trying to wearanother hat to say how do I
(33:16):
think and how do I be like,where is this woman going to be?
Where is she going to get herinformation?
And try to be there.
Do you understand?
I know that when I started I wasthinking of you know, go to
business day, put an article,put this, put that Women don't
read.
Many women don't read tobusiness day Many women
entrepreneurs.
So I started learning from thatand just started building.
(33:39):
My only customer is a woman, soI needed to get the
intelligence to be able to servethem and I needed to
communicate with them and Ineeded to make sure I don't lose
my money.
So I think all those driverswas the point.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
So what does your customer look like?
What does a secluded customerlook like?
I know you say it's women, butit can't be all women.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
So it's exciting that you asked that question.
When I started, my firstblanket was to show the blanket
to all women and I realizedgetting bond.
I think I still learn indifferent demographics from
stay-at-home mom, from womenthat earn less than $50,000,
from women that earn less than$500,000.
I stay classifying them.
Right now, I think 70% of ourcustomers are peri-urban women.
(34:25):
They typically have socialcapital.
It means that they've invested abit on their social capital.
They typically have invested intheir business, a certain
threshold of money invested intheir business.
The other, let's say 20% orless, we try to dedicate it to,
(34:45):
to upcomers, those that we thinkthat you know maybe they are
young.
We see the potential for thebusiness to be able to thrive.
I mean sometimes, at differentseasons, depending on different
partnerships that we've beenable to do, we've also tweaked
it sometimes.
I mean sometimes we see some ofthe partners that we work with
(35:06):
on different stuff saying, oh,we want a certain type of women
and we've tried to do it, buttypically we are looking at
targeting aspiring women thatare looking to grow so that they
can employ more people and getand more money.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I think that that it so.
I know you started the businesswith your capital, but what has
raising funds been like for youin terms of money to deploy?
How have you gone ahead toincrease the pool of resources
you have to deploy?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
So we have three seed funding I call them patient
capital and I feel like asideare aside, saying the Shikluda
story is incomplete without them, because I mean, I remember my
first seed investor, mike, saidyes, that he noticed that he did
that investment because he saidhe had sisters and in the UK he
(35:59):
would notice that it was easierfor him to get loans than his
sisters.
The UK he was noticed that itwas, it was easier for him to
get loans than his sisters, sothat there's a gap.
And then came Ngozi, and Ngoziwas like I'd always wanted to
invest in women.
Then Isaac Isaac is not just aninvestor, he's also a.
I feel like he's his sponsorbecause, in terms of some of the
(36:20):
links that we're able to getwith the US, isaac has done some
of those introverts.
We've also been able to thinkabout other ways of raising
money, whether it's throughpartnerships with different
financial institutions or justthinking of, like you said,
right now, it's in to help to bewomen and we happen to have
(36:40):
done a lot of verifiable work inthis space women and we happen
to have done a lot of verifiablework in the space.
So we we had, we have, a fewfunding for women programs that
have come to us and becauseright from the first day I said
I should go to the discipline tomake sure that my cost and my
income is, you know, like wedon't spend more than we make.
(37:02):
It's just been growing.
You know, my work really is togrow a I mean maybe it's from
the pwc days like it has to makebusiness sense.
So it has to be that it'sgrowing and it's profitable for
it to be worth my time.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I know so, as we think about growth, you've done
a lot in Nigeria and I know thatyou started thinking about the
continent.
So what does growth look likefor SheCluded?
Going forward, so when?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'm thinking about growth.
I'm thinking of being bought bya bank to run their women
banking.
I think that what that does forus is one to focus on the
things that we know how to dowell engage women to grow.
Our algorithm in terms of usingalternative data to lend to
(37:54):
women is also something that wecan share with them and just be
able to make more funding cometo women.
I think that that's what I waslooking at.
In terms of growth.
We've also thought aboutpartners across Africa, so we've
had a few women reach out to usfrom different countries to say
, hey hi, this bank's here todon't give us money.
I think I was shocked when Isaid this.
(38:16):
I thought it was a Nigerianproblem, but we're shocked to
start receiving emails fromMalawi, from Uganda, saying that
hey hi, the banks don't want togive us money, and it made me
realize that, wow, thissubconscious bias is strong.
I think one of the things thatamazes me is how intangible
subconscious bias is, but it'sbig.
(38:37):
How something can be this bigand it can still be invisible is
something that I feel.
This big and it can still beinvisible is something that I
feel.
So we have a few clients thatwe've served, maybe from the
accelerator programs or justfrom investors and referrals.
But we are looking at morestrategic partnerships with
either MFBs that we've beentalking to or, like women are
(38:58):
interested in starting like aSheCluded in their countries and
stuff.
I think that that's what we'relooking at for growth.
We also have some fundingconversations that we have some
developmental organizations thatwe are hoping that we'll pull
through.
I know that this conversationsometimes it takes time, but we
are positive that we're still ontrack to do the things that we
(39:23):
do.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's excellent.
So I know you were selected asone of NASDAQ's milestone makers
for your contribution toreducing inequality.
Tell us a bit about that andhow that has helped you in your
business journey.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
That was the first time I had a business coach and
I can remember one of thecoaching period.
That coach came and she saidhey, so let's play a game, get a
book.
Assume the first seven years ofyour life is chapter one,
chapter two, chapter three,chapter four, you know, up to
the age you are, whatever.
And each chapter she says closeyour eyes, give it a title, and
(40:02):
you tell me a little bit aboutit.
And it was really a reflectionof the collection of my life.
And she said something.
She said now you're in chapterI think was it chapter seven at
the time and she said write downwhat's going to happen in this
chapter.
And for the first time, as Iwas writing it down, I realized
that I had the privilege towrite my history before it began
(40:24):
.
And that was, for me, themoment that I felt that my life
began Immediately.
That was a mindset shift toknow that I was writing a book
and the name of the book wasInforma and it has to have me in
it.
So I feel like after thatexperience, if it's anything I
(40:46):
got from that experience, wasjust the impact of a business
coach on telling me and givingme permission to write the book
that is called the Fulmer.
I remember writing no OrdinaryLife and since then it's never
been.
I mean, since then we've gottenwhat funding?
I mean, since then we've gottenfunding.
We got 350,000 euros from theNetherlands, from CFYE.
(41:10):
I just got into a program Imean they've not yet announced
and it's in the US and I feltlike she changed my life.
I just said you know, because Ifelt that at so many points you
know as women.
So many definitions, so manyimages of who you should be, how
(41:32):
you should act, how you shouldshow up can be conflicting, and
just her telling me that thisbook is called Ifama Udu, you
have to actually write it mademe realize that, man, I am a
writer and I'm going to writethis book and write a good book.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
In terms of wrapping up.
You know, I normally ask myguests two questions.
One is really like a reflectionwhat do you think?
I mean?
Your business is all aboutimpact, but if you could talk
about one thing that you wouldsay has been the most impactful,
or one of the most impactfulthings that you've done in
building this business, what?
What would you say it is?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I think one of the most impactful thing true, she
included and the work we've done.
I've seen people say, hi, youmade my dream come true and that
for me, is it's all I need tomake life worth it for me.
So, knowing that I can justshow up at work sometimes or I
can just say, hey, hi, this logo, I can design something quickly
(42:32):
for you and send it to somebody, and the person said you
changed my life or you made mydream come true, is is worth it
for me that's fantastic, and ifyou could give advice to other
women who are buildingbusinesses in Africa, what
advice would that be?
Try to get access to communities, networks, beyond your social,
(42:57):
economic and cultural classWhether it's a USS Laredo,
whether it's a US accelerator,whether it's a US fellowship,
whether it'sa conference and getcomfortable with not knowing
what's happening in that room.
In fact, the more you sit downand you're like gosh, this is
supposed to be a conference formanufacturing companies and I
(43:17):
don't know it's in the rightroom.
Just keep taking notes and staythere long enough.
Trust me it to change yourincome.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yeah, your network is your net worth.
I totally agree.
Thank you so much, ife.
This has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me and do
have a nice day.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Thank you so much for listening.
If you're not alreadysubscribed, please do so on
Apple, spotify or wherever youget your podcasts, and don't
forget to leave us a review sowe know how we're doing.
I'm Akego Okoye and you havebeen listening to African
Business Stories.
Hi there and welcome to another episode of African
Business Stories.
Africa is the only region inthe world where more women than
men choose to be entrepreneurs.
What this says to me is thatthe story of business in Africa
is the story of the Africanbusiness woman.
So we are on a journey ofdiscovery to find these women
(00:23):
and tell their stories.
On the show, we will hear fromfemale innovators and
entrepreneurs building andrunning businesses in Africa.
They will share the highs andlows of their entrepreneurial
journey and lessons learnedalong the way.
Some of these women you mayknow and many you may not, but I
(00:48):
assure you that all theirstories are inspiring in their
own right.
My hope is that these storieswill inspire you to reach for
your dreams and leave a legacyfor generations to come.
It makes such a big differenceto us if you can rate, review
and share our episodes.
You can do this mainly on ApplePodcasts, and you can find us
on all podcast platforms Ifyou're in Africa.
(01:09):
Spotify is now available, socheck us out there and don't
forget to rate, review and shareOn the show.
Today I chat with Ifoma Udo, thefounder and CEO of SheCluded, a
fintech credit company inNigeria.
We talk about an earlychildhood tragedy that shaped
(01:30):
the person she is today.
We trace her career trajectoryfrom PwC into the Nigeria
fintech ecosystem and how shelanded on the idea of SheCluded,
a company focused on improvingthe influence and finance
strength of female entrepreneurs.
Since it launched in 2019,shecluded has built a community
(01:51):
of over 200,000 women, deployedover 1 billion naira in loans
and, in 2023, launched theSheCluded Hub in Lagos, nigeria.
The daughter of a teacher, shedoesn't miss the opportunity to
share lessons and insights fromevery experience or story.
Let's get into it.
Welcome to African BusinessStories.
(02:13):
Thank you for having me, kego.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Thank you.
I feel like this conversationis long overdue, long overdue,
so I'm glad that we could maketime to finally sit down, you
know, and talk about yourbusiness journey.
So thank you again.
I believe that a lot of thingsthat impact how we show up in
the world flows from theexperiences we've had, and I
know that for you, you lost yourdad early and I wonder what
(02:41):
that experience I don't know howyoung you were when he passed
and how that shaped growing upfor you- so I was nine years
when my dad died, and apart fromthat so my dad grew up in a
home where it was for five boys,so he never had a sister.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So when I was born, my mom was like gosh.
She was like this is the bestthing in his life.
So I want you to know that Iwas daddy's girl.
You know I knew that my daddycould die for me and I was the
princess, and I think that's theway I grew up and waking up one
day my dad traveled andwhenever my dad travels he comes
(03:19):
back in the night.
He wakes me up, so it's likeyou know me and my dad.
We're lovers me off.
So it's like, you know, we haveme and my dad were lovers.
So one time he traveled and henever came back and my mom was
27 and we're four kids.
I remember coming back fromschool that day and I saw my
uncle in my house with my mombehind, and then my uncle told
(03:42):
me the story about my dad goingto heaven.
At first I was just sad, but Ithought that it was it.
You know, I don't know what Ithought.
I thought that everything wouldchange back, but it just didn't
, and I think that that wholeexperience taught me that the
only person that will be withyou to the end of your life is
yourself Experience.
(04:03):
I should take myself seriously.
That's what I went on to dowith myself.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I'm sorry.
I know it's been a long time,but I still have to say I'm
sorry for your loss, justthankful that you had the
opportunity to experience timewith your dad at least.
Thinking about your childhood,you know, are there some fond
childhood memories that you wenton to experience, so I mean
growing up.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
My dad was a policeman, so I grew up in the
barracks yes, and the barracksknow what it used to be now.
It used to be like big and itused to be like clean and happy.
You know communal life.
And my dad was deployed topolice college in keja and he
teach taekwondo, okay.
So after school, by threeo'clock we walked to the police
(04:52):
field to do taekwondo and thenit was like um, I remember um,
the junior staff coming to myhouse, maybe to cut grass, and I
can remember my dad coming intopolice college and everybody's
standing attention.
So it was like it felt like avery prestigious job.
So my dad had a prestigious joband that's why, you know, when
(05:13):
conversations about like policeand army and you know some sort
of conversation, I'm emotionalabout it because that's not what
I saw growing up.
Then other fond memories was Ithink that one of the heroes in
my story was my mom.
Like, I was a daddy's girl andI just knew that he had this
wife in the house that loved mybrother and I quickly saw her
(05:39):
evolve into somebody that Ididn't know was there and I
didn't know how much that wasuntil one time, I think, when I
was as a teenager, I would go torelatives' house to stay so
that you know when I'm going toschool.
They would give me money forschool.
And I can remember going to oneof my cousins' house in Sulari
(06:01):
to stay and help them with achild and they brought in a new
nanny and she was crying everyday and one day, you know, I
called her and said, hey, what'sup like?
Is it that you're not happy?
Tell me and tell me your story.
And she said that her dad diedand her mother ran away because
they had she had five children,so the five of them, they had to
(06:22):
go to the uncle dad's brotherand then they had to give them
out because there's nobody totake care of them.
And immediately my eyes openedand my mom actually ran away.
It made me realize that painand just your life falling apart
can cause people trauma thatthey forget who they are, can
(06:47):
cause people trauma that theyforget who they are.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And throughout that journey, I think it just made me
feel like hey thank god, mymummy did not like run away, so
yeah, so I had one childhood, sowhat did you aspire to be?
You had this dad who was apolice officer, who was so well
respected, and, and so what didyou aspire to be when you were
um?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
so when my dad was alive, I think my only
aspiration was to be a princesswow, so I mean after my dad died
and I went to the university.
What did I aspire to be?
I think that at some point Iaspired to be a pharmacist.
So, um, we had this relative,emzo, so you know, she was rich
and successful and I always knew.
(07:28):
I think after my dad died, Iknew one thing I was going to be
rich and successful.
That's always been where I knewI was going to be.
How.
I didn't know how.
So I wanted to be here andbecome another big pharmacist.
Um, but something happened Oneday.
One of my mom's friends came.
I wrote the first jam.
I didn't get it and the secondjam.
(07:51):
I was about to fill the formand one of my mom's friends came
visiting and he was asking whatare you doing?
What is your plan?
And I said I wanted to studycomputer science.
I wanted to study pharmacy,sorry.
And he said what about computerscience?
Wanted to study pharmacy, sorry.
And he said what about computerscience?
That computer is going to bethe biggest thing.
Blah, blah, blah.
He said talking about computers.
I've never heard anything likethat before and I said this
(08:18):
sounds like the best place to beand that's how I filled in
computer science wow so Iswitched immediately to computer
science and I went to like forFUTO.
Um, when I did my admission inFUTO what I applied for was
computer science and I got intomathematics and computer science
(08:38):
department.
So year one, year two, we didum foundation and we did
different things on computermathematics and I quickly
realized that by the third yearwe had to choose a major.
I didn't have a computer.
My mom could not afford acomputer.
And here I was writing for transevery day and I just thought to
(09:03):
myself and I said you know whatI can't do?
Computer science, because Ithere's no point writing a
programming, and that's how Iwent to do mathematics.
so I had a major so even thoughour department is maths and
computer science.
My major now became industrialmaths.
I had a major in mathematics,so it showed how and that's why
(09:25):
I'm passionate about likedeploying capital to things that
matter for people, Because upto today I feel like a computer
will have made a big difference.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Wow.
So what did career look likefor an industrial mathematician
Interesting?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
So, in school, my only target was to make it to
one.
So I made sure I was thatbookworm.
You know, like you know,triangular student, church
school, my hostel, church school, my hostel.
I was that boring, I justwanted to make good grades.
I didn't know where.
I think I came out at the erawhere I showed that if you make
a good grade you get a good job.
That was what I had when I wasgrowing up Get a good grade and
(10:04):
get a good job.
And so my goal at that time wasjust to get good grades.
So when I finished, I came outand I came back to Lagos,
because I schooled in FutoO'Hare but my parents and we
grew up in Lagos.
So when I finished, I came backto Lagos and I know everybody
was thinking about relaxing andI was thinking, hey, I need to
get a job.
(10:24):
And I know everybody wasthinking about relaxing and I
was thinking, hey, I need to geta job.
I've been working since mysecond year.
I worked at Echo Bank.
I remember my first job was8,000 a year.
I was so fat and I came backand I remember.
So we used to have water issuesand I bought this black butter
for us to store water in thekitchen and I felt proud, so
(10:44):
proud of myself that I'm finallycontributing to the family.
So that sort of like built myresilience.
Then, my fourth day, I workedin Diamond Bank.
Having superiors at that time Imean not like this the way it
is now.
Having superior at that timethat can say, hey, sit right, oh
(11:05):
, tuck in your shirt, oh, go andbuy food for me, taught me so
many things that I fear thatmaybe these generations might
think that are not necessary,but they actually you know
contributed to who I was youknow this saying I take to the
age to raise a child is actuallytrue.
So when I finished I came outand I was looking for the best
(11:28):
paying job sorry if you.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
What kind of work were you doing?
Um, when you were working likediamond bank, for example, what
kind of work were you doing?
I'm assuming that was part-timebecause you were studying.
Yes, it was internship.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
So second year we had three months internship and
fourth year we had six monthsinternship.
So for my internship, as secondyear, we had a three-month
internship and fourth year wehad a six-month internship.
So for my internship secondyear, I was in Diamond Echo Bank
.
Then, by my fourth year I wasin Diamond Bank.
So for the first one I was theteller, so deposit money.
I can remember my first mistakeon the job.
(12:00):
Somebody came for a bank draftdraft and I undercharged them
and I remember my manager at theend of the day, finally, I
undercharged them by how much?
So it was something like I feltthat maybe 1,000 something.
I didn't think it was that big,but she was really frustrated
until I said, hey, I was goingto pay for it and she now said
okay, so I paid for it.
(12:23):
I think every time people ask mewhat are one of the things that
changed my journey and my storyfrom a barricade, um, from a
police, um, from police and mymom was a primary school teacher
before she started doingbusiness is the fact that you
know one, when I got into schoolI was trying to put it.
You know people, educationschool doesn't matter, but it
(12:44):
teaches you skills to just stayin.
I stayed in and I was like, oh,this is book, I need to try and
make good grades, I need to putin the effort.
Then when I finished I got intoPwC.
I felt that it was anothermajor step in the way that I in
my story, because I got into anopportunity where it was sort of
(13:04):
like the elite and it changedmy thinking.
And when I got into PwC I stillworking I saw like rich kids, I
saw smart kids, smartest peoplearound the world.
I saw things that I never wouldhave said if I was not in PwC
in fact to say how.
PwC impacted me.
You know I was the what nextgirl because this wasn't where I
was going to.
(13:24):
I'd finished, but confirmedthat PwC still working.
I was like, no, I need toincrease my salary by 3x.
And I looked at the trajectoryand I said another job to get
another job, to be very mobile,I needed a master's.
So I was thinking of master's,master's, master's.
I couldn't obviously affordanything abroad and you know I
(13:46):
was applying for local masters.
I actually got into AfricanUniversity of Science and
Technology on a World Bankscholarship for masters but I
went in there and it was likepure maths.
And I was like gosh, I don'twant to do pure maths, I don't
want to end up lecturing.
And I came back to PWC and oneday at work I was sitting down
and I saw them say, hey,congratulations Onyeka.
(14:09):
And I asked her what happenedand they said she got a full
scholarship to LSE to studysomething in human resources
that you know.
It included stipends and somany other things.
And I remember thinking and andsaying, wow, this girl is lucky
, this is possible.
No, I said this girl is luckyand her parents are even rich.
(14:30):
And one mind said, what if youcan get a scholarship?
And that's when I was like waita minute, I thought it was for
special people.
And something said, I mean, youcan as well, just try, you
never can tell.
And I said, I mean you can aswell, just try, you never can
tell.
And I started applying toschools in the UK.
I got a scholarship toLancaster University.
(14:51):
So I feel like that wholeexperience taught me that just
being in the right place withthe right people can rub off
things that you never can tellwhere they can take you to.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
That is so incredible .
That is such an amazing story.
You know being in the rightenvironment can influence how
you think and how your life andyour career progresses.
So you finish your master's,you come back to Nigeria.
Do you go back to PwC or do youfind that I wanted to go?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
back to PwC.
Then my friend in PWC said hey,there's this thing called tech
startups and there's one that'slooking for people smart people
to join and blah, blah, blah.
And I talked to Jason and Ifelt that if I go back to PWC, I
know the road that I was goingto end up in.
(15:43):
But this thing sounds exciting.
And Jason's energy wascontagious.
You know, he felt like he wasbreathing.
The next, you know, whatever itis, you know this, this?
And I said, hmm, this soundsgood.
And also I mean, I'd learnedanalytics, I'd finished my
master's, and I just felt like Iwanted somewhere to demonstrate
what I was doing.
You, you know, like just to seethat mathematics is actually
(16:03):
applied to things, real lifethings.
So I said you know what?
And I went and joined Jason inIroko and that was how I
stumbled into the tech sector.
Another lesson I learned fromthat was she recommended me for
that job because I worked withher in PwC and when I was
working with her, even thoughshe was more senior, I showed up
(16:25):
and I tried to show up.
Well, so your pairs are yourfirst sponsors and stuff.
People are getting that andthat was very key for me and in
Iroko it was.
It made me fall in love withbuilding.
I was seeing the whole.
We're trying to build a website.
(16:46):
We're trying to build, createsomething.
I just liked it.
I learned so much from thatwhole experience of trying to
create something new and it mademe feel like you know what I
think I like startups, you know.
I think that was where I likeyou know, because, you see, you
know, people work in bigcompanies and sometimes they
don't get to see the rippleeffect of their daily decisions.
(17:10):
I liked the fact that I couldsee the daily.
You know when I come to thewebsite.
And then it was movies.
I could look at the data andsay, hmm, all the movies on the
homepage, this is receiving theless click.
What's the problem?
I think there's a problem withthis movie.
I will click it and maybethere's no sound, as in.
(17:32):
I saw how so many times peoplevisit a media site and they
think that it's just a fancypage.
But actually there's a lot ofanalytics that goes into what
should be there, what shouldn'tbe there.
I mean just knowing that, hey,if you want to make $100,000,
where to place your marketingads, just knowing that customers
(17:53):
have retention Nigeria movieshave a retention curve at some
point, so you need to be able todo it.
Just knowing when to put SS,when not to put SS, and being
able to use data to show thatdecision.
For me it was pretty exciting.
So how long were you at UOK?
I was there for a year and afew months before I got my next
(18:16):
job.
So someone I worked with in PwCsaid hey, there's this guy, Femi
Akinde.
He started a company in Nigeriaand he's looking for somebody
to run the Nigerian operationsand I wanted to know if you were
interested in it.
And I said, okay, let's have achat.
And I remember chatting withFemi and feeling like, hmm, this
(18:41):
sounds like another opportunityto build something.
And that was it for me.
That was the attraction for me.
I went to Femi and we startedtrying to build a slim trader
and it was fun.
It was also a lot of learning,a lot of disappointments so you
know when people think aboutentrepreneurship and why they
(19:02):
give up.
I feel that the journey with myother experiences taught me that
this is a very high and lowkind of experience.
You know, it's like I felt likeI was given the opportunity to
see people.
That people you know.
You know how sometimes you seepeople in front of the papers
and you're like man, this guy isit?
Ah, he reaped 10 milliondollars, um, 50 million dollars.
(19:25):
He's building this.
He's speaking in panels.
I sat down closely with them andI saw that they were human.
Maybe right before that pressrelease the site went off, or
right before this.
So I was there serving them andI could see and I felt that
when I was, when I started myjourney and when I started
working with women, I noticedthat that was a very vital set
(19:46):
of information and that was aprivilege for me, because I saw
that the game is imperfection.
You're building in Nigeria,with all the challenges, knowing
.
I feel like one of the thingsthat women entrepreneurs
struggle is like.
I mean, all their life they'vetold them that people like
(20:06):
perfect women and everything hasto be perfect.
That's why they like ironingtheir clothes, tying their
ghillie very well, making theirmakeup, everything.
But doing business in Nigeriais dirty, it's imperfect, far
from perfect, and sitting downand seeing these people and
helping them, you know, andmaking sure I do my own role to
(20:29):
make sure that everything works,was, I think it was a privilege
for me Just being able to bethere, and it was something that
I realized when I startedChiclo.
It was a learning point.
You know how, like, sometimes Ifeel like.
Oh, I should say thank you tomy all my former bosses and I
hope that they know that whenour success story is being
(20:52):
mentioned, they should say yes,that's part of what I did well.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
So I know that before where I'm itching to get into
the whole story.
But just one more experiencefrom your past I think is
relevant to touch on, just toadd more color to your story,
because you have quite aninteresting background.
You then went at some point tobe COO of a seed funding company
yes that's the way I thinkthat's.
(21:18):
Did I get it right?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
so I mean after spending, I think, over three
years with Femi.
I went on maternity leave and Icame back and obviously because
I was I mean you can imaginebeing in a company for over
three years, having not goneanywhere I was the it man and I
remember coming off of maternityleave and the people on there
have been promoted.
And I remember having thatconversation with my boss.
(21:42):
I said, see, femi, you wereaway for like six months.
We had to do something.
And I and and he was right thatwas the right thing to do at
the time, because I'm a very I'mthe kind of person that what
has to be done has to be done.
The company has to move on.
And I feel like when I cameback, I just felt like it was
time for me to look for anotheradventure.
(22:03):
And I saw an ad for a seedfunding company looking for a
CEO and I went for the interview.
I remember going for theinterview the first time and I
was like I don't think I want towork here.
The second time the guy calledme and said, hey, come for the
interview.
And I said no, I'm notinterested, that's not what I
(22:27):
want to work.
And it also showed me theimportance of having a good HR
person.
The guy really persuaded me andsaid you should come for this
interview even if you don't wantthe job, just come.
Our boss or CEO wants to meetyou.
Blah, blah, blah and I came forthe interview and I met Collins
on Weibo and we had a chat andI felt like this guy is grounded
and I felt like I wanted youknow I'd played in the game, in
(22:50):
the startup game.
You know the whole BS startups.
I've done it and this felt likean opportunity to be on the
other side and.
I see what it was like.
So I said you know what, let'sget in, and that's how I got
into.
That's how I got into, that'swhy I took the role.
It was a fantastic role for mebecause I was sitting on the
(23:12):
other side.
For once, I understood what itwas like to deploy capital.
I understood what it's like tovet a lot of applications and
just try to look for the best.
I started learning how to meetpeople, how to just be on the
other side, and I think it waswhen I was doing that job that I
started saying where are thewomen?
(23:33):
Before then I'd never paidattention to where are the women
.
But I remember the first day Icame for the meeting, you know,
and they had this big table,executive table and I noticed I
was the only female on thattable and I was like wait hmm,
okay, this is weird.
And I started looking around, Istarted getting pitch tech and I
(23:54):
started seeing I think this wasaround 2015, when it was like
Nigerian tech was hot I mean,they would give people money
just for thinking of tech andmaybe three months later the
company is closed.
And I'm like, and all thismoney was going to men.
And I sat down and said youknow what?
I want some of this money to goto women too.
And I quickly realized thatgenuinely, there were like there
(24:17):
were no women.
You know how it's like you getwomen and she's not qualified.
No, we did not get.
The best woman that I met in2015 was dami shutlass.
She has gone on to raise fourmillion dollars, but I can
remember then seeing her and hercoming to be to us and I was
thinking, oh wow, this girl,this girl is bold and I want to
(24:41):
know that at that time, I'dnever you know how it has never
flashed my mind to be anentrepreneur.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So when did you start thinking seriously that you
wanted to do this?
Because here you are, at a job,you are the one deploying
capital.
You see, this gap where thewomen, where the women.
And then how did this idea ofstarting a business, you know,
take root?
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So I mean, I was one of those women that they say
have to lose cash in theiraccount.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
So one day.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
I remember sitting down with my seatmate that was a
manager in the manager's cornerand he said hey, how about this
?
money in your account and I saidyes, and I said, okay, why
don't you invest it?
And I said, oh, what's that?
And he sent me this damn biginvestment and I said, okay, I
tried to put money in there.
And the next day he came andsaid, hey, I have a problem, can
you lend me money?
And I did and he paid and aftera while in the office it's like
(25:39):
when people had issues theysaid, hey, lend me money, I'll
pay you on payday.
Hey, lend me money, I'll payyou on payday.
And we stayed doing that.
I realized that I was happy thatit solved their problem.
At the time.
You know, maybe someone wouldsay my mother, this, this, I had
an impulsive barrier and stuff.
I just liked it.
You know they would give me andthey would say thank you so
much.
I mean just then.
(25:59):
And I liked it.
And I was pregnant around thattime with my third baby and for
me, I quickly started realizingthat with each pregnancy I felt
like I got less confident.
You know the whole.
I used to be like that girlthat worked 24 hours.
You know, if you had me on yourteam, it's like I need to
deliver, like you know howpeople say they get there, I get
(26:21):
my, I get fulfillment frombeing valuable.
So I was that person.
I was.
If I was on your team, I had toshow up and I noticed that with
each child it felt like gosh.
I was juggling so many ballsand I couldn't think about it
and it hit me so you know how,moving from a mindset that women
were absent because they werejust not putting in the work,
(26:43):
and by my third child I realizedthat women were upset because
they were juggling so many ballsand they couldn't cope.
I felt sorry for for takingtheir absence as not being like.
They were not determined.
It made me feel like I don'tknow.
It just made me feel bad.
And then I saw and Iexperienced firsthand what I
felt that an average woman wouldhave experienced.
(27:04):
I was pregnant for my thirdchild.
I had two babies, a lot wasgoing on in my life.
I had to show up at work andlook normal and for me it just
felt like, wow, this is whatwomen go through and knowing
that many of them would neverget funding just felt like gosh.
I need to to change this and Istarted doing a lot of research
(27:28):
on saying that.
You know women.
You know where, where are thefunding for women?
Where?
What's happening in that?
And I noticed I was the samething with other financial
services, like credit, like uminsurance, like women were just
not using it and and for me itdidn't make sense because I come
from a mathematics background.
(27:49):
If the population of Africa andNigeria is 50% approximately
50% men and 50% women and 95% ofthe startups fail, it means
that we have no sufficient datato prove that the other half of
the population is incapable ofmaking change.
(28:11):
Do you understand what I mean?
Like from a pure scientificpoint of view?
That was my driver.
I just felt like nobody hastested these demographics to see
what can they do, and I wasbrooding over it.
And I remember at the time whenI felt like, hey, I think I was
brooding over it.
And I remember at the time whenI felt like, hey, I think I was
brooding over it so much and Iwas thinking at my job, things
(28:32):
were evolving.
The company was evolvingbecause by that time, the
investing tech bubble and somany companies closing was
coming down, so everybody's eyeswas clearing and everybody was
like, okay, maybe we need to bemore cautious with tech and just
breathing a bite.
One day I think I felt like goand start a company that's for
(28:53):
women and I was like nothinglike that existed at that time.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
What year were we?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
in 2018.
I said, you know, first of all,start a company.
Like seriously of all thepeople start a company.
I mean it felt like the biggestjoke.
You know, I'd never seen myself.
I'd seen myself sitting down ata table.
You know World Bank, ifc,signing big policies.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
But you know how I've seen myself as a CEO.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
No, that hasn't crossed my mind that's like for
crazy people.
So, but they.
I can remember the first person.
I told that, hey, I wanted togo and start a finance company
that's just focused on women.
And the person said how can youdo that?
That's not profitable, that'snot, that doesn't make sense.
And I said, yeah, this guy isright.
How can you start a business?
Are you cut out 50 of thepopulation?
(29:44):
Well, every time I went to myquiet place to see you know what
, what kind of business, whatkind of what do I want to do?
Next?
It's going to start a companyfor women.
And after a while I just saidyou know what?
I was getting older to noticethat I don't think that.
Um, I have time.
You know how, when you startgetting old, I think at that
(30:05):
time I was over 30 and Irealized that, wait a minute,
the chorus is actually time, notmoney.
So I said you know what?
I would start a company and Iwould try it out, and if it
doesn't work out, I'll go andget a job.
And that's how I startedChicloaded you know.
I remember the few people Ipitched at the time to say, hey,
I wanted to do Chiclo Dead.
(30:26):
It sounded very weird to themand I thought about you know
what, how do I start this?
And I said I needed to showthat my point of view works,
Like a female-focused financialservices can actually move the
needle in terms of funding oraccess to finance for women.
And I remember going towithdraw all my investments and
(30:50):
all my and saying that I want toput it as the capital to be
able to deploy and yeah, that'sit.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
So where did you get the name she cluded from?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
so when I uh, when I was thinking about it, the name
and that's the name of our um,that's the name that was on our
first CAC document was included.
I wanted to include more peopleinto finance.
So one day I was brainstormingwith my colleague then Victor,
he does design and stuff and Isaid no, because it's for women.
(31:21):
We need to make the name looklike it's for women and that's
how we say know, we say she, notsay she included yes instead of
included, and we said, yeah,that sounded nice.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
So just going back to coming up with your business
case and selling it at a timewhen it wasn't, you know.
Today, you know talking aboutwomen-focused businesses is a
thing, you know you can build awhole career around it, but what
was that like for you in acountry like Nigeria?
I mean, when I startedSheCluded.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I mean, the capital was my money, so it was like
fine, but I noticed quickly thatthere was a gap.
I mean, when I focused onbuilding the tech and everything
, I thought that the women wouldcome, but they didn't.
And quickly I realized that Ihad to do more and I went to
that meeting with women.
(32:12):
I remember asking somebody oh,where can I find women?
And the person said go toInstagram.
And I went to download and Isaw a lot of women and I started
chatting them to say, hi, doyou need money to grow your
business?
And I saw a lot of women and Istarted chatting them to say hi,
do you need money to grow yourbusiness?
And many of them said, you know, yes, but you know they don't
want a loan.
You know, their grandmothertook a loan and she died of the
loan, you know.
I started noticing that, thegaps in information.
(32:34):
I quickly noticed that theworldview for women and the
worldview that I was used to,based on my work experience and
based on the tables I sat, werevery different and that's why
interventions made for women,especially women entrepreneurs
in Africa, we feel like the waythat a typical woman
entrepreneur thinks and the waythat a normal person has been
(32:55):
incorporates that down thing isvery different.
So I started trying to learnand trying to see the how to
reach them, how to communicatewith them, who are their role
models, because the role modelsin our world and the role models
in their world is verydifferent.
Like you know, it was reallylike how do I?
It was really me trying to wearanother hat to say how do I
(33:16):
think and how do I be like,where is this woman going to be?
Where is she going to get herinformation?
And try to be there.
Do you understand?
I know that when I started I wasthinking of you know, go to
business day, put an article,put this, put that Women don't
read.
Many women don't read tobusiness day Many women
entrepreneurs.
So I started learning from thatand just started building.
(33:39):
My only customer is a woman, soI needed to get the
intelligence to be able to servethem and I needed to
communicate with them and Ineeded to make sure I don't lose
my money.
So I think all those driverswas the point.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
So what does your customer look like?
What does a secluded customerlook like?
I know you say it's women, butit can't be all women.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
So it's exciting that you asked that question.
When I started, my firstblanket was to show the blanket
to all women and I realizedgetting bond.
I think I still learn indifferent demographics from
stay-at-home mom, from womenthat earn less than $50,000,
from women that earn less than$500,000.
I stay classifying them.
Right now, I think 70% of ourcustomers are peri-urban women.
(34:25):
They typically have socialcapital.
It means that they've invested abit on their social capital.
They typically have invested intheir business, a certain
threshold of money invested intheir business.
The other, let's say 20% orless, we try to dedicate it to,
(34:45):
to upcomers, those that we thinkthat you know maybe they are
young.
We see the potential for thebusiness to be able to thrive.
I mean sometimes, at differentseasons, depending on different
partnerships that we've beenable to do, we've also tweaked
it sometimes.
I mean sometimes we see some ofthe partners that we work with
(35:06):
on different stuff saying, oh,we want a certain type of women
and we've tried to do it, buttypically we are looking at
targeting aspiring women thatare looking to grow so that they
can employ more people and getand more money.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
I think that that it so.
I know you started the businesswith your capital, but what has
raising funds been like for youin terms of money to deploy?
How have you gone ahead toincrease the pool of resources
you have to deploy?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
So we have three seed funding I call them patient
capital and I feel like asideare aside, saying the Shikluda
story is incomplete without them, because I mean, I remember my
first seed investor, mike, saidyes, that he noticed that he did
that investment because he saidhe had sisters and in the UK he
(35:59):
would notice that it was easierfor him to get loans than his
sisters.
The UK he was noticed that itwas, it was easier for him to
get loans than his sisters, sothat there's a gap.
And then came Ngozi, and Ngoziwas like I'd always wanted to
invest in women.
Then Isaac Isaac is not just aninvestor, he's also a.
I feel like he's his sponsorbecause, in terms of some of the
(36:20):
links that we're able to getwith the US, isaac has done some
of those introverts.
We've also been able to thinkabout other ways of raising
money, whether it's throughpartnerships with different
financial institutions or justthinking of, like you said,
right now, it's in to help to bewomen and we happen to have
(36:40):
done a lot of verifiable work inthis space women and we happen
to have done a lot of verifiablework in the space.
So we we had, we have, a fewfunding for women programs that
have come to us and becauseright from the first day I said
I should go to the discipline tomake sure that my cost and my
income is, you know, like wedon't spend more than we make.
(37:02):
It's just been growing.
You know, my work really is togrow a I mean maybe it's from
the pwc days like it has to makebusiness sense.
So it has to be that it'sgrowing and it's profitable for
it to be worth my time.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I know so, as we think about growth, you've done
a lot in Nigeria and I know thatyou started thinking about the
continent.
So what does growth look likefor SheCluded?
Going forward, so when?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
I'm thinking about growth.
I'm thinking of being bought bya bank to run their women
banking.
I think that what that does forus is one to focus on the
things that we know how to dowell engage women to grow.
Our algorithm in terms of usingalternative data to lend to
(37:54):
women is also something that wecan share with them and just be
able to make more funding cometo women.
I think that that's what I waslooking at.
In terms of growth.
We've also thought aboutpartners across Africa, so we've
had a few women reach out to usfrom different countries to say
, hey hi, this bank's here todon't give us money.
I think I was shocked when Isaid this.
(38:16):
I thought it was a Nigerianproblem, but we're shocked to
start receiving emails fromMalawi, from Uganda, saying that
hey hi, the banks don't want togive us money, and it made me
realize that, wow, thissubconscious bias is strong.
I think one of the things thatamazes me is how intangible
subconscious bias is, but it'sbig.
(38:37):
How something can be this bigand it can still be invisible is
something that I feel.
This big and it can still beinvisible is something that I
feel.
So we have a few clients thatwe've served, maybe from the
accelerator programs or justfrom investors and referrals.
But we are looking at morestrategic partnerships with
either MFBs that we've beentalking to or, like women are
(38:58):
interested in starting like aSheCluded in their countries and
stuff.
I think that that's what we'relooking at for growth.
We also have some fundingconversations that we have some
developmental organizations thatwe are hoping that we'll pull
through.
I know that this conversationsometimes it takes time, but we
are positive that we're still ontrack to do the things that we
(39:23):
do.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
That's excellent.
So I know you were selected asone of NASDAQ's milestone makers
for your contribution toreducing inequality.
Tell us a bit about that andhow that has helped you in your
business journey.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
That was the first time I had a business coach and
I can remember one of thecoaching period.
That coach came and she saidhey, so let's play a game, get a
book.
Assume the first seven years ofyour life is chapter one,
chapter two, chapter three,chapter four, you know, up to
the age you are, whatever.
And each chapter she says closeyour eyes, give it a title, and
(40:02):
you tell me a little bit aboutit.
And it was really a reflectionof the collection of my life.
And she said something.
She said now you're in chapterI think was it chapter seven at
the time and she said write downwhat's going to happen in this
chapter.
And for the first time, as Iwas writing it down, I realized
that I had the privilege towrite my history before it began
(40:24):
.
And that was, for me, themoment that I felt that my life
began Immediately.
That was a mindset shift toknow that I was writing a book
and the name of the book wasInforma and it has to have me in
it.
So I feel like after thatexperience, if it's anything I
(40:46):
got from that experience, wasjust the impact of a business
coach on telling me and givingme permission to write the book
that is called the Fulmer.
I remember writing no OrdinaryLife and since then it's never
been.
I mean, since then we've gottenwhat funding?
I mean, since then we've gottenfunding.
We got 350,000 euros from theNetherlands, from CFYE.
(41:10):
I just got into a program Imean they've not yet announced
and it's in the US and I feltlike she changed my life.
I just said you know, because Ifelt that at so many points you
know as women.
So many definitions, so manyimages of who you should be, how
(41:32):
you should act, how you shouldshow up can be conflicting, and
just her telling me that thisbook is called Ifama Udu, you
have to actually write it mademe realize that, man, I am a
writer and I'm going to writethis book and write a good book.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
In terms of wrapping up.
You know, I normally ask myguests two questions.
One is really like a reflectionwhat do you think?
I mean?
Your business is all aboutimpact, but if you could talk
about one thing that you wouldsay has been the most impactful,
or one of the most impactfulthings that you've done in
building this business, what?
What would you say it is?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I think one of the most impactful thing true, she
included and the work we've done.
I've seen people say, hi, youmade my dream come true and that
for me, is it's all I need tomake life worth it for me.
So, knowing that I can justshow up at work sometimes or I
can just say, hey, hi, this logo, I can design something quickly
(42:32):
for you and send it to somebody, and the person said you
changed my life or you made mydream come true, is is worth it
for me that's fantastic, and ifyou could give advice to other
women who are buildingbusinesses in Africa, what
advice would that be?
Try to get access to communities, networks, beyond your social,
(42:57):
economic and cultural classWhether it's a USS Laredo,
whether it's a US accelerator,whether it's a US fellowship,
whether it'sa conference and getcomfortable with not knowing
what's happening in that room.
In fact, the more you sit downand you're like gosh, this is
supposed to be a conference formanufacturing companies and I
(43:17):
don't know it's in the rightroom.
Just keep taking notes and staythere long enough.
Trust me it to change yourincome.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yeah, your network is your net worth.
I totally agree.
Thank you so much, ife.
This has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Thank you, thank you so much for having me and do
have a nice day.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Thank you so much for listening.
If you're not alreadysubscribed, please do so on
Apple, spotify or wherever youget your podcasts, and don't
forget to leave us a review sowe know how we're doing.
I'm Akego Okoye and you havebeen listening to African
Business Stories.
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