October 28, 2025 • 21 mins
The Impact and Evolution of Oak in Winemaking
In this episode of After Wine School, Keith Wallace and Alana Zerbe delve into the world of oak and its significant role in winemaking. They discuss the historical evolution of oak usage, starting from the Gauls' beer barrels to its modern-day application in winemaking. They highlight different types of oak such as French, American, Baltic, and Croatian, each contributing unique flavors to wine. The duo also discuss the varying impacts of barrel size and toast levels on the wine. They explore the cultural and symbolic importance of oak in luxury wine, the American and Australian trends towards heavily oaked wines in the 20th century, and the subsequent backlash towards subtler flavors. The episode concludes with a hopeful note as they reveal that oak is making a balanced comeback in contemporary winemaking.
00:00 Introduction and Hosts 00:23 The Role of Oak in Winemaking 01:26 Historical Use of Oak 03:27 Types of Oak and Their Characteristics 04:17 Barrel Construction and Toasting 05:15 Impact of Barrel Size on Wine 07:22 Oak's Symbolism and Evolution in Winemaking 10:37 American and Australian Oak Trends 14:25 Backlash and Natural Winemaking Movement 16:53 Current Trends and Conclusion 17:36 Lightning Round and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
This is After Wine School.
I am Keith Wallace.
This.
It's Alana Zerbe.
Welcome.
It's great to be here.
It is.
You know what we're gonna talk about today.
Please tell me Oak.
We're talking about oak, we're talking about flavor bombs.
We're there.
It's something that people either love it, they hate it, but they're gonna have to listen to me talk about it.
(00:34):
And you too.
And me too.
Yeah.
It's fascinating because oak is one of those things.
It's very divisive.
Yes.
And we'll talk a little bit about that in our episode.
It's also symbolic.
It has huge cultural cachet and especially in wine.
It really is, and for a long time has been a major flex for a wine maker to make.
(00:57):
I've made that flex so many times.
My guns are made of oak.
My guns are made of oak.
Alright, folks here.
Okay. 30 00:01:08,62.180164259 --> 00:01:09,172.180164259 Question for you. 31 00:01:09,592.180164259 --> 00:01:10,222.180164259 What does Shali. 32 00:01:12,97.180164259 --> 00:01:16,387.180164259 California Cabernet and Australian Shiraz all have in common. 33 00:01:16,927.180164259 --> 00:01:22,57.180164259 Their reputations were either made or almost broken by their use of oak. 34 00:01:23,617.180164259 --> 00:01:23,887.180164259 Ugh. 35 00:01:24,157.180164259 --> 00:01:24,637.180164259 Yeah. 36 00:01:24,967.180164259 --> 00:01:25,417.180164259 Awesome. 37 00:01:25,417.180164259 --> 00:01:26,647.180164259 All right, let's talk about it. 38 00:01:26,947.180164259 --> 00:01:32,17.180164259 So, something that's really interesting about Oak is that in the history of wine making. 39 00:01:32,377.180164259 --> 00:01:42,582.18016426 It was not our forebears, the Romans or the Greeks who get so much credit for viticultural methods, for tending the grape things that are so relevant in our wine world today. 40 00:01:43,217.18016426 --> 00:01:44,747.18016426 They didn't know about oak. 41 00:01:45,137.18016426 --> 00:01:54,77.18016426 It was the GS actually who were using oak to store their beer, those damn Gs, those damn gulls beer. 42 00:01:54,497.18016426 --> 00:02:10,277.18016426 So when the Romans encountered the Gallic tribes, they were still using clay and flora, just like the Greeks had to transport their wine and wine at that time because of the resin seals had a pretty funky taste. 43 00:02:10,302.18016426 --> 00:02:13,392.18016426 Oh, it wasn't just funky. 44 00:02:14,472.18016426 --> 00:02:15,822.18016426 It was like pinesol. 45 00:02:15,827.18016426 --> 00:02:16,247.18016426 Intense. 46 00:02:16,247.18016426 --> 00:02:18,467.18016426 Because they oftentimes use pine resin. 47 00:02:18,472.18016426 --> 00:02:19,682.18016426 It was pretty nasty pine resin. 48 00:02:19,687.18016426 --> 00:02:27,497.18016426 And they did have other herbs and spices added in, but what they realized, they saw the galls using these barrels. 49 00:02:27,497.18016426 --> 00:02:29,237.18016426 They thought, let's try that for wine. 50 00:02:29,507.18016426 --> 00:02:32,327.18016426 And over time, not only was this incredibly. 51 00:02:32,637.18016426 --> 00:02:34,137.18016426 Easy to transport. 52 00:02:34,457.18016426 --> 00:02:36,17.18016426 oak was abundant. 53 00:02:36,107.18016426 --> 00:02:37,607.18016426 It was pliable. 54 00:02:37,607.18016426 --> 00:02:38,987.18016426 It was watertight. 55 00:02:39,287.18016426 --> 00:02:43,607.18016426 And lo and behold, it also seasoned the wine in a very pleasant way. 56 00:02:44,507.18016426 --> 00:02:45,887.18016426 That's, that is correct. 57 00:02:45,987.18016426 --> 00:02:49,797.18016426 But this is the thing about oak, white oak, and we're talking about specifically white oak. 58 00:02:50,257.18016426 --> 00:02:56,647.18016426 this isn't the oak you use for making your stairs or your floors. 59 00:02:56,887.18016426 --> 00:02:58,687.18016426 It's very specific white oak. 60 00:02:59,892.18016426 --> 00:03:00,912.18016426 Let me put it this way. 61 00:03:00,942.18016426 --> 00:03:01,692.18016426 It never rots. 62 00:03:01,752.18016426 --> 00:03:02,412.18016426 It cannot rot. 63 00:03:02,442.18016426 --> 00:03:03,462.18016426 It will not rot. 64 00:03:03,832.18016426 --> 00:03:07,12.18016426 We have a barrel outside the swine school in Philadelphia. 65 00:03:07,342.18016426 --> 00:03:08,452.18016426 It's been out there for a decade. 66 00:03:08,542.18016426 --> 00:03:09,802.18016426 It has, it will never rot. 67 00:03:09,982.18016426 --> 00:03:12,472.18016426 It's also completely watertight to this day. 68 00:03:13,42.18016426 --> 00:03:18,125.51349759 That is amazing to build a boat or build a barrel. 69 00:03:18,125.51349759 --> 00:03:23,665.51349759 this was a massive innovation in the world of wine and storing anything, that you can just put it in there. 70 00:03:23,665.51349759 --> 00:03:24,655.51349759 You don't have to worry about it. 71 00:03:24,745.51349759 --> 00:03:25,915.51349759 That's amazing. 72 00:03:26,515.51349759 --> 00:03:26,845.51349759 Now. 73 00:03:27,642.18016426 --> 00:03:28,722.18016426 A couple things about this. 74 00:03:28,902.18016426 --> 00:03:32,532.18016426 First of all, there isn't just one species. 75 00:03:32,562.18016426 --> 00:03:33,432.18016426 There's a couple of them. 76 00:03:34,422.18016426 --> 00:03:35,652.18016426 There's french oak. 77 00:03:36,12.18016426 --> 00:03:38,172.18016426 That's what's mostly used you see in a lot of wine. 78 00:03:38,172.18016426 --> 00:03:39,462.18016426 But there's also Baltic oak. 79 00:03:39,852.18016426 --> 00:03:41,57.18016426 It's not really used anymore at all. 80 00:03:41,652.18016426 --> 00:03:43,992.18016426 I want to know some Baltic Oak wines. 81 00:03:43,992.18016426 --> 00:03:46,92.18016426 I wanna try them, so send them my way. 82 00:03:46,872.18016426 --> 00:03:52,400.81501442 That said, there's also American Oak, that's commonly used to this day and actually bourbon. 83 00:03:52,580.81501442 --> 00:03:53,840.81501442 Mm, love my bourbon. 84 00:03:54,74.14834776 --> 00:03:55,64.14834776 And there's also, uh. 85 00:03:55,517.48168109 --> 00:03:59,567.48168109 Croatian Oak, which we usually know as Lovon Oak or Slavonia Oak. 86 00:04:00,47.48168109 --> 00:04:00,677.48168109 So we have those. 87 00:04:00,677.48168109 --> 00:04:01,667.48168109 So a little bit different. 88 00:04:01,667.48168109 --> 00:04:03,617.48168109 They all have different kind of flavor profiles. 89 00:04:04,70.81501442 --> 00:04:06,740.81501442 American Oak is big and vanilla. 90 00:04:07,297.48168109 --> 00:04:07,837.48168109 Baltic Oak. 91 00:04:07,837.48168109 --> 00:04:08,527.48168109 I have no idea. 92 00:04:08,527.48168109 --> 00:04:09,667.48168109 Like I said, I have no idea. 93 00:04:09,997.48168109 --> 00:04:11,917.48168109 and then you have French Oak, which is very nuanced. 94 00:04:11,917.48168109 --> 00:04:14,17.48168109 And in the middle of there, there's that Croatian. 95 00:04:14,347.48168109 --> 00:04:15,67.48168109 A little bit of difference. 96 00:04:15,397.48168109 --> 00:04:16,447.48168109 It gets more complicated. 97 00:04:17,167.48168109 --> 00:04:18,757.48168109 'cause when you build a barrel. 98 00:04:19,237.48168109 --> 00:04:22,327.48168109 We've always had to burn the inside to bend that oak. 99 00:04:22,327.48168109 --> 00:04:27,594.14834776 It's pliable, but more pliable, and it'll expand into watertight barrel. 100 00:04:27,594.14834776 --> 00:04:36,834.14834776 If you heat the inside so it chars the inside of the barrel, and that char that flavors the wine, that's that toasty. 101 00:04:36,984.14834776 --> 00:04:41,24.14834776 You ever have a bottle of wine? It's like, oh, that tastes like, chocolate, or it tastes like espresso. 102 00:04:41,24.14834776 --> 00:04:43,64.14834776 That's why it's that char on the inside. 103 00:04:43,364.14834776 --> 00:04:44,714.14834776 Now we can control that char. 104 00:04:45,254.14834776 --> 00:04:54,574.14834776 It could be a light toast, a very, very light, delicate toast that's gonna give a very slight essence And that's what we, when we're making bourbons, aging barrels, that's what we use. 105 00:04:54,574.14834776 --> 00:04:55,714.14834776 Like you get massive. 106 00:04:55,774.14834776 --> 00:04:59,284.14834776 Massive oak Burt flavors, that's intense. 107 00:04:59,464.14834776 --> 00:05:05,884.14834776 But for wine making, typically we use medium to medium plus char in the toast in the inside, that toasting. 108 00:05:06,304.14834776 --> 00:05:14,644.14834776 It's a nice balance between the flavors of the oak, like you talked about, and then the char, and then it's a little more complicated. 109 00:05:15,604.14834776 --> 00:05:23,159.60289321 It's a little more complicated than that people, because it's not just the varieties and the toast, it's also the size. 110 00:05:23,399.60289321 --> 00:05:24,629.60289321 Now, if you go to any winery. 111 00:05:24,959.60289321 --> 00:05:28,79.60289321 Any wiring in the world, what you see are barix. 112 00:05:28,79.60289321 --> 00:05:31,499.60289321 Now, those are the traditional Bordeaux style of barrels. 113 00:05:31,859.60289321 --> 00:05:36,134.60289321 They're the, they're not small, but they're the smallest ones we use in professional wine making. 114 00:05:36,674.60289321 --> 00:05:37,634.60289321 Fantastic. 115 00:05:38,54.60289321 --> 00:05:57,687.33016594 If you put a Cabernet or Shiraz in one of those barrels for a year, two at most delicious, amazing, you come out, you have all those oak flavors and those wine flavors, What if you wanna put something in longer? What if you have a wine like say, like a nelo from Barolo? that's so massively tanic that you want to age it for longer. 116 00:05:58,317.33016594 --> 00:06:03,140.66349927 What if you wanna age it for 10, 20 years? Well, that's when you need larger barrels. 117 00:06:03,440.66349927 --> 00:06:10,940.66349927 And those larger barrels, they give a completely different oak flavor profile because you have. 118 00:06:11,510.66349927 --> 00:06:15,110.66349927 Less contact with the oak, with much more volume of wine. 119 00:06:15,410.66349927 --> 00:06:26,394.29986291 But over time, because of how aging and how hydro systems work and how wine flows and moves, even when it's still within that barrel, it ages differently. 120 00:06:26,454.29986291 --> 00:06:33,204.29986291 The flavors are completely different, and we oftentimes are using a different kind of oak rather than French oak, these are called botes. 121 00:06:33,204.29986291 --> 00:06:34,344.29986291 If they're in Barolo. 122 00:06:34,795.96652958 --> 00:06:37,675.96652958 And these are usually the Slovo Oak. 123 00:06:37,915.96652958 --> 00:06:43,165.96652958 And we use similar barrels in Rioja, but they use American Oak. 124 00:06:43,985.96652958 --> 00:06:45,785.96652958 So people, uh, size matters. 125 00:06:46,25.96652958 --> 00:06:46,535.96652958 I'm sorry. 126 00:06:48,354.29986291 --> 00:06:49,589.29986291 So, yeah, there you go. 127 00:06:49,589.29986291 --> 00:06:54,174.29986291 I had to say it, it, it, Hey, you know, you know, sometimes. 128 00:06:55,154.29986291 --> 00:06:56,144.29986291 Sometimes it does. 129 00:06:57,74.29986291 --> 00:07:01,394.29986291 So we did cover a lot of interesting things about oak in the episode. 130 00:07:01,424.29986291 --> 00:07:03,374.29986291 WTF is in my wine. 131 00:07:03,404.29986291 --> 00:07:07,394.29986291 we went into a little more about what the specific flavors are. 132 00:07:07,754.29986291 --> 00:07:09,134.29986291 Yes, the chemical compounds. 133 00:07:09,134.29986291 --> 00:07:11,984.29986291 So folks, if you are interested in that, definitely. 134 00:07:11,984.29986291 --> 00:07:17,834.29986291 Look back in the catalog and find that episode and the segment on actually oak as an additive. 135 00:07:17,984.29986291 --> 00:07:26,804.29986291 so, Keith, can you tell us a little bit about when the turning point is? Like when Oak really acquires Oh, its status, yeah. 136 00:07:26,804.29986291 --> 00:07:30,974.29986291 As a symbol of luxury and class and fine wine. 137 00:07:31,64.29986291 --> 00:07:32,204.29986291 Oh, that's actually a great question. 138 00:07:32,474.29986291 --> 00:07:32,684.29986291 Okay. 139 00:07:32,684.29986291 --> 00:07:36,825.20895382 So it was in Bordeaux, like, the border of Lays, they went from like being. 140 00:07:37,640.20895382 --> 00:07:44,690.20895382 Like outlaws to by the 18 hundreds, early 18 hundreds, they were already had established as being, making fine wines. 141 00:07:45,70.20895382 --> 00:07:46,660.20895382 Big, bigger, heavier reds. 142 00:07:46,660.20895382 --> 00:07:47,966.87562049 They went from, a little throwback. 143 00:07:47,966.87562049 --> 00:07:50,886.87562049 They, they started making, sweeter funky, weird, cheap wines. 144 00:07:50,916.87562048 --> 00:07:57,646.87562048 But by the 18 hundreds, they're making banging wines and they're the first ones, and they're using Baltic oak. 145 00:07:58,6.87562048 --> 00:07:59,956.87562048 They're using this oak that no one ever uses. 146 00:07:59,956.87562048 --> 00:08:01,546.87562048 Now, I don't even know what it tastes like. 147 00:08:01,596.87562048 --> 00:08:09,433.54228715 It was, I think, largely this was inexpensive, but there was a Napoleonic blockade of Bordeaux. 148 00:08:09,973.54228715 --> 00:08:10,243.54228715 Right. 149 00:08:10,333.54228715 --> 00:08:11,83.54228715 18 hundreds. 150 00:08:11,143.54228715 --> 00:08:12,43.54228715 Lot of wars. 151 00:08:12,423.54228715 --> 00:08:21,713.54228715 and they couldn't get Baltic Oak in, so what they did was they actually started making barrels with the local oak, with the French oak, French oak. 152 00:08:21,743.54228715 --> 00:08:27,170.20895382 It's all over the place, right? It's, there's plentiful, and this is what I love about the wine industry. 153 00:08:27,170.20895382 --> 00:08:28,130.20895382 We've always done this. 154 00:08:28,580.20895382 --> 00:08:31,10.20895382 If we have to do something, we have to adapt. 155 00:08:31,150.20895382 --> 00:08:36,660.20895382 So the French were like, ah, yeah, Baltic Oak, nah, That stuff was just, that was dog's breakfast. 156 00:08:36,660.20895382 --> 00:08:38,310.20895382 No French Oak though. 157 00:08:38,520.20895382 --> 00:08:39,750.20895382 No, that's where it's at. 158 00:08:39,900.20895382 --> 00:08:41,850.20895382 And so they slowly migrated over. 159 00:08:42,150.20895382 --> 00:08:46,320.20895382 All French oak and the 18 hundreds was a huge time for Bord Oak. 160 00:08:46,320.20895382 --> 00:08:52,230.20895382 'cause that's when they really established their brand, when they became this insanely amazing place. 161 00:08:52,540.20895382 --> 00:08:53,530.20895382 1855. 162 00:08:53,860.20895382 --> 00:08:59,770.20895382 You know that now they, um, most somalias actually have that date, 1855 tattooed on their chest. 163 00:09:00,100.20895382 --> 00:09:01,960.20895382 Um, it's just something you have to do. 164 00:09:02,50.20895382 --> 00:09:03,130.20895382 Um, you get that. 165 00:09:03,400.20895382 --> 00:09:08,23.54228715 'cause 1855 is what it's a classification system for. 166 00:09:08,23.54228715 --> 00:09:09,608.54228715 Look at my, come on. 167 00:09:10,660.76870225 --> 00:09:11,980.76870225 Yes, that is. 168 00:09:11,980.76870225 --> 00:09:12,910.76870225 Yes, exactly. 169 00:09:13,0.76870225 --> 00:09:14,920.76870225 Uh, hey, you know what? Yeah, no. 170 00:09:14,920.76870225 --> 00:09:15,190.76870225 Yeah. 171 00:09:15,550.76870225 --> 00:09:16,960.76870225 Grown crew baby. 172 00:09:18,129.10203558 --> 00:09:18,309.10203558 Yeah. 173 00:09:18,309.10203558 --> 00:09:21,459.10203558 Can we, can we get that like in post, just like have 'em tattooed? I should get that. 174 00:09:21,649.10203558 --> 00:09:26,54.10203558 By 1855, right? The whole classification system has been founded on the idea that. 175 00:09:27,184.10203558 --> 00:09:30,974.10203558 Bordeaux is amazing but it wasn't just Bordeaux, it was actually the Oak. 176 00:09:31,304.10203558 --> 00:09:40,994.10203558 So the 18 hundreds, when you have this establishment, established that French wine, you know, especially Bordeaux in aged in French Oak is. 177 00:09:41,949.10203558 --> 00:09:45,749.10203558 the highest peak of wine, the peak of luxury, everything. 178 00:09:45,809.10203558 --> 00:09:46,439.10203558 That was it. 179 00:09:47,279.10203558 --> 00:09:47,969.10203558 I love that. 180 00:09:47,969.10203558 --> 00:09:52,669.10203558 I love that our story of oak begins with the Gallic tribes Yes. 181 00:09:52,669.10203558 --> 00:09:54,79.10203558 Using local French oak. 182 00:09:54,159.10203558 --> 00:09:58,539.10203558 And then over the centuries, other types of oak become preferred. 183 00:09:58,539.10203558 --> 00:09:58,629.10203558 Yes. 184 00:09:59,349.10203558 --> 00:10:00,519.10203558 But you're absolutely right. 185 00:10:01,514.10203558 --> 00:10:03,524.10203558 You no longer have access to something. 186 00:10:03,574.10203558 --> 00:10:08,134.10203558 The best marketing move is to say, oh, well it's even better now. 187 00:10:08,184.10203558 --> 00:10:11,274.10203558 Than in fact, they're going back to something that they always had. 188 00:10:11,324.10203558 --> 00:10:14,744.10203558 And the Romans were like, of course, in the beginning when Romans saw 'em doing it, they were like, P. 189 00:10:15,549.10203558 --> 00:10:16,419.10203558 God damn Gs. 190 00:10:16,419.10203558 --> 00:10:17,794.10203558 What do they know? Barbarians. 191 00:10:17,799.10203558 --> 00:10:18,519.10203558 Barbarians. 192 00:10:18,519.10203558 --> 00:10:20,469.10203558 And they resented using it. 193 00:10:20,739.10203558 --> 00:10:26,199.10203558 And they actually, in the beginning, they only would use it if they were too far away to get the phora in. 194 00:10:26,199.10203558 --> 00:10:26,859.10203558 They're like, all right, fine. 195 00:10:26,859.10203558 --> 00:10:28,449.10203558 We'll use the old barrels fine. 196 00:10:28,539.10203558 --> 00:10:31,349.10203558 But then eventually It becomes the thing. 197 00:10:32,129.10203558 --> 00:10:33,839.10203558 Now let's jump ahead a little bit. 198 00:10:34,499.10203558 --> 00:10:35,279.10203558 We talked about Bordeaux. 199 00:10:35,279.10203558 --> 00:10:36,389.10203558 Let's talk about Burgundy a little bit. 200 00:10:36,449.10203558 --> 00:10:37,469.10203558 Is that okay? Yeah, please. 201 00:10:37,469.10203558 --> 00:10:44,939.10203558 All right, because, you know, I wanna talk about like how, 'cause how did Americans all fall in love with oak? Because they fell. 202 00:10:44,939.10203558 --> 00:10:48,689.10203558 I, I swear to God, Americans fell in love with oak before they fell in love with wine. 203 00:10:49,209.10203558 --> 00:10:50,770.76870225 so Burgundy. 204 00:10:51,310.76870225 --> 00:10:53,560.76870225 Now there's two kinds of white burgundy really. 205 00:10:53,560.76870225 --> 00:11:06,167.22930158 I mean, there's more than that, but you have your white burgundy, your Chablis, which is austere and beautiful and lovely, but it's aged traditionally in neutral old French barrels. 206 00:11:06,257.22930158 --> 00:11:06,707.22930158 Beautiful. 207 00:11:07,607.22930158 --> 00:11:12,287.22930158 Further south you have Monte Shey and Che, which is, it's warmer. 208 00:11:12,287.22930158 --> 00:11:14,227.22930158 So the Chardonnay is richer and riper. 209 00:11:14,587.22930158 --> 00:11:17,527.22930158 They use newer oak 'cause it can handle it. 210 00:11:17,787.22930158 --> 00:11:22,527.22930158 and it has this wonderful textures and a little bit of oak flavors. 211 00:11:23,217.22930158 --> 00:11:34,227.22930158 But when Americans started making Chardonnay, in the sixties and seventies, they adapt the CHE style by the eighties, Americans are falling in love with these chardonnays. 212 00:11:34,704.961821 --> 00:11:40,164.961821 And not just the Chardonnays, right? the American, especially the Napa winemakers they're riffing off of the French. 213 00:11:40,554.961821 --> 00:11:43,494.961821 but Americans are saying, we love this, but more oak. 214 00:11:43,674.961821 --> 00:11:44,154.961821 More oak. 215 00:11:44,334.961821 --> 00:11:47,154.961821 We want oak and like we want it. 216 00:11:47,214.961821 --> 00:11:49,674.961821 We want, we love that cinnamon, we love that nutmeg. 217 00:11:49,674.961821 --> 00:11:52,194.961821 We love those big toasty flavors. 218 00:11:52,494.961821 --> 00:11:56,124.961821 Give me more oak and, yeah, no, that's how they did it too. 219 00:11:56,124.961821 --> 00:11:58,614.961821 And they were just screaming, more oak, please. 220 00:11:58,644.961821 --> 00:12:03,259.961821 and so of course American winemakers, of course, newer and newer barrels. 221 00:12:03,968.21653798 --> 00:12:12,138.21653798 And for longer, longer periods and your oak wines are getting oakier and oakier and more cinnamon and the more nutmeg and more intense Right. 222 00:12:12,138.21653798 --> 00:12:17,738.21653798 And then when the Australians got into the business, They just started, they're like, oh, Americans want oak. 223 00:12:17,948.21653798 --> 00:12:21,408.21653798 So we're like, well, we're gonna age our Shiraz and American Oak. 224 00:12:21,558.21653798 --> 00:12:23,478.21653798 We're gonna age it in French and American. 225 00:12:23,478.21653798 --> 00:12:25,548.21653798 Maybe we'll throw in some other kinds of oak in there too. 226 00:12:25,728.21653798 --> 00:12:29,778.21653798 Maybe we'll even throw a couple barrels of that Baltic oak, see if Keith can even notice the difference. 227 00:12:29,958.21653798 --> 00:12:32,208.21653798 And they just like bombed us with oak barrels. 228 00:12:32,208.21653798 --> 00:12:34,668.21653798 Like, I mean, it was literally, it was a war crime. 229 00:12:34,758.21653798 --> 00:12:37,158.21653798 The amount of, Oak they put in their wines. 230 00:12:37,338.21653798 --> 00:12:40,518.21653798 This is, by the way, fruit bombs, this is what we're talking about. 231 00:12:40,518.21653798 --> 00:12:41,388.21653798 Those Australians. 232 00:12:41,388.21653798 --> 00:12:42,258.21653798 Those Californians. 233 00:12:42,558.21653798 --> 00:12:42,828.21653798 Yeah. 234 00:12:42,928.21653798 --> 00:12:47,758.21653798 And just to clarify, the Americans in the seventies and eighties Yeah. 235 00:12:47,758.21653798 --> 00:12:48,898.21653798 They were using French oak. 236 00:12:48,963.21653798 --> 00:12:49,823.21653798 Oh, absolutely. 237 00:12:49,823.21653798 --> 00:12:50,63.21653798 Yeah. 238 00:12:50,63.21653798 --> 00:12:50,223.21653798 Okay. 239 00:12:50,243.21653798 --> 00:12:52,738.21653798 Oh, absolutely everyone, 'cause they're barring from the French. 240 00:12:52,738.21653798 --> 00:12:54,658.21653798 So we were only using French, but then. 241 00:12:55,53.21653798 --> 00:13:05,113.21653798 as the Americans were crying for more and more, we started using, American Oak and to this day we actually do, like if you, there's still some red Zinfandels out there that are still aged in American Oak. 242 00:13:05,113.21653798 --> 00:13:05,893.21653798 But that was it. 243 00:13:06,313.21653798 --> 00:13:13,93.21653798 We did it to ourselves, like the trend was delicate Balance wines coming out from France. 244 00:13:13,307.89134376 --> 00:13:14,927.89134376 And then we just wanted more and more. 245 00:13:15,347.89134376 --> 00:13:17,447.89134376 Yeah, we just, we, we asked for it. 246 00:13:17,681.9945624 --> 00:13:18,281.9945624 We got it. 247 00:13:18,281.9945624 --> 00:13:24,821.9945624 And that's the thing, when I was a winemaker in the early aughts, late nineties, you could not give people enough oak. 248 00:13:25,301.9945624 --> 00:13:36,161.9945624 The idea was like, how do you introduce more oak in? Like, can, can we put oak ships into the barrels? Like trying to figure out like, how do you do that? Oh, seriously, really? Oh, I did that. 249 00:13:36,851.9945624 --> 00:13:37,331.9945624 Oh yeah. 250 00:13:37,391.9945624 --> 00:13:38,51.9945624 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 251 00:13:38,51.9945624 --> 00:13:38,891.9945624 No, I did that. 252 00:13:39,191.9945624 --> 00:13:41,711.9945624 unfortunately though, that was terrible. 253 00:13:42,21.9945624 --> 00:13:43,461.9945624 it tasted like cinnamon. 254 00:13:43,751.9945624 --> 00:13:44,891.9945624 Everything tasted like cinnamon. 255 00:13:44,891.9945624 --> 00:13:46,751.9945624 Like we pulled out that one test barrel. 256 00:13:46,751.9945624 --> 00:13:50,291.9945624 It was like, this is, it tasted like breakfast cereal. 257 00:13:50,291.9945624 --> 00:13:52,646.9945624 You know that breakfast cereal that tastes like cinnamon? I love that. 258 00:13:52,646.9945624 --> 00:13:52,886.9945624 Yeah. 259 00:13:53,86.9945624 --> 00:13:53,771.9945624 Cinnamon Toast Crunch. 260 00:13:53,771.9945624 --> 00:13:54,11.9945624 Yes. 261 00:13:54,11.9945624 --> 00:13:54,311.9945624 Yes. 262 00:13:54,311.9945624 --> 00:13:55,61.9945624 A cinnamon toast Crunch. 263 00:13:55,116.9945624 --> 00:13:56,406.9945624 it was a barrel of that. 264 00:13:56,526.9945624 --> 00:13:57,216.9945624 Oh, I love that. 265 00:13:57,306.9945624 --> 00:13:57,846.9945624 Oh my God. 266 00:13:57,896.9945624 --> 00:13:58,586.9945624 And so. 267 00:13:59,231.9945624 --> 00:14:08,641.9945624 At that time though, everything that highly rated, very expensive, top of the line wines had in common was a huge amount of oak. 268 00:14:08,881.9945624 --> 00:14:10,291.9945624 Insane amount of oak. 269 00:14:10,321.9945624 --> 00:14:11,206.9945624 Yes, absolutely. 270 00:14:11,971.9945624 --> 00:14:12,421.9945624 Absolutely. 271 00:14:12,421.9945624 --> 00:14:13,141.9945624 That is. 272 00:14:13,681.9945624 --> 00:14:15,601.9945624 Yeah, the flavor bombs. 273 00:14:15,601.9945624 --> 00:14:15,961.9945624 Baby. 274 00:14:16,111.9945624 --> 00:14:17,221.9945624 Flavor bombs. 275 00:14:17,291.9945624 --> 00:14:21,21.9945624 so you were in Napa and Italy making wines? yes. 276 00:14:21,111.9945624 --> 00:14:25,191.9945624 And then I started getting into wine in the late nineties, early aughts. 277 00:14:25,311.9945624 --> 00:14:27,801.9945624 And that's when the backlash was happening. 278 00:14:27,921.9945624 --> 00:14:32,301.9945624 It was starting as soon as we hit our peak, y'all became haters. 279 00:14:32,643.66122907 --> 00:14:32,863.66122907 Yes. 280 00:14:33,668.66122907 --> 00:14:34,268.66122907 Yes. 281 00:14:34,298.66122907 --> 00:14:36,578.66122907 And you say you all, and it's really y'all. 282 00:14:36,608.66122907 --> 00:14:38,228.66122907 'cause I was working in the, in the south. 283 00:14:38,348.66122907 --> 00:14:39,878.66122907 Oh, I was in Virginia, Northern Virginia. 284 00:14:39,878.66122907 --> 00:14:40,208.66122907 That's right. 285 00:14:40,208.66122907 --> 00:14:40,538.66122907 You were. 286 00:14:40,628.66122907 --> 00:14:49,508.66122907 And I was working for a winemaker who, because of the ubiquity of Napa style, Chardonnay actually hated Chardonnay. 287 00:14:49,958.66122907 --> 00:15:01,808.66122907 And she was a member of what was common back then of the anything but chardonnay movement, the A, B, C, I'll drink anything but chardonnay The tail on this has just been so long. 288 00:15:01,808.66122907 --> 00:15:06,548.66122907 People to this day think that they don't like Chardonnay, when in fact it's the oak. 289 00:15:07,118.66122907 --> 00:15:12,278.66122907 So there was a huge backlash against a mono flavor culture, basically. 290 00:15:12,283.66122907 --> 00:15:13,533.66122907 Oh, I love that mono flavor. 291 00:15:13,533.66122907 --> 00:15:13,933.66122907 Mm-hmm. 292 00:15:14,13.66122907 --> 00:15:15,698.66122907 Oh, you, that's a play on monoculture. 293 00:15:15,698.66122907 --> 00:15:16,268.66122907 I love that. 294 00:15:16,448.66122907 --> 00:15:16,718.66122907 Mm-hmm. 295 00:15:16,958.66122907 --> 00:15:17,228.66122907 Thank you. 296 00:15:17,313.66122907 --> 00:15:17,613.66122907 All right. 297 00:15:17,808.66122907 --> 00:15:32,578.66122907 And sort of the symbol of this became Robert Parker because his palette really defined the eighties and nineties, and it was the wine advocate and then other publications similar to his that used the a hundred point rating scale. 298 00:15:33,295.32789573 --> 00:15:40,885.32789573 The wines that had the high alcohol, the big fruit, and the big, big new oak, they always got the highest ratings. 299 00:15:40,915.32789573 --> 00:15:46,105.32789574 So in the early two thousands, there was a big backlash against globalization. 300 00:15:46,155.32789574 --> 00:15:47,385.32789574 And a monoculture. 301 00:15:47,385.32789574 --> 00:15:51,795.32789574 And so Parker was the symbol of that when it came to wine making. 302 00:15:51,795.32789574 --> 00:15:56,895.32789574 People really were rebelling against that and wanted to go back to. 303 00:15:57,310.32789574 --> 00:16:01,180.32789574 a more local, a more quote unquote natural style of wine. 304 00:16:01,180.32789574 --> 00:16:13,950.32789574 And this is where the natural wine making movement really starts and so winemakers start to employ stainless steel concrete eggs back to amphora, where we started in the very beginning. 305 00:16:14,382.0482065 --> 00:16:18,82.0482065 So that has been the more recent history Of Oak. 306 00:16:18,82.0482065 --> 00:16:33,962.0482065 And there is a movie if you're interested in seeing sort of on the ground gonzo footage of this Bondo, the movie, captures this tension in a really unique way, not the greatest movie, but it captures a time extremely well. 307 00:16:34,323.86951616 --> 00:16:35,373.86951616 They were right about this. 308 00:16:35,607.20284949 --> 00:16:40,527.2028495 Oak became the viticultural version of Acts body spray. 309 00:16:40,757.2028495 --> 00:16:43,457.2028495 No one wants that key ax body spray. 310 00:16:43,457.2028495 --> 00:16:44,297.2028495 It's too much. 311 00:16:44,327.2028495 --> 00:16:44,597.2028495 Yeah. 312 00:16:44,647.2028495 --> 00:16:44,977.2028495 No. 313 00:16:44,977.2028495 --> 00:16:50,377.2028495 You know what? I know as a, I guess I was a 14-year-old boy when I was a winemaker because man, I like that. 314 00:16:51,757.2028495 --> 00:16:52,717.2028495 Oh my God. 315 00:16:53,707.2028495 --> 00:17:09,192.2028495 Oh, well, the good news is that we've settled into a place right in the middle with Oak today where you do get some depth, you get complexity, but it's not overtaking the ultimate flavors of the wine itself. 316 00:17:09,432.2028495 --> 00:17:17,722.2028495 So we have titrated back from the excesses of the eighties and nineties, and so Oak today is used much more sparingly. 317 00:17:18,142.2028495 --> 00:17:19,672.2028495 A lot more neutral barrels. 318 00:17:19,672.2028495 --> 00:17:19,762.2028495 Mm-hmm. 319 00:17:20,2.2028495 --> 00:17:23,152.2028495 Larger format barrels like you talked about earlier. 320 00:17:23,422.2028495 --> 00:17:32,692.2028495 And so today's iteration of oak is to give seasoning, to give nuance, to give depth, but not overpower the wine itself. 321 00:17:33,82.2028495 --> 00:17:33,772.2028495 Hallelujah. 322 00:17:34,37.2028495 --> 00:17:34,277.2028495 Absolutely. 323 00:17:34,657.2028495 --> 00:17:35,197.2028495 So, all right. 324 00:17:36,7.2028495 --> 00:17:38,947.2028495 Shall I jump in the lightning round? Oh, let's do the lightning round. 325 00:17:38,947.2028495 --> 00:17:39,277.2028495 Okay. 326 00:17:39,577.2028495 --> 00:17:43,267.2028495 Number one, French oak is always better. 327 00:17:43,777.2028495 --> 00:17:44,827.2028495 False.. 328 00:17:45,517.2028495 --> 00:17:46,357.2028495 False. 329 00:17:46,803.9065121 --> 00:17:47,763.9065121 Bordeaux. 330 00:17:47,943.9065121 --> 00:17:48,693.9065121 Yes. 331 00:17:48,868.9065121 --> 00:17:49,188.9065121 Rioja. 332 00:17:49,448.9065121 --> 00:17:49,668.9065121 No. 333 00:17:50,350.7544588 --> 00:17:50,770.7544588 Barolo. 334 00:17:51,70.7544588 --> 00:17:51,290.7544588 No. 335 00:17:52,70.7544588 --> 00:17:52,290.7544588 No. 336 00:17:52,853.19841 --> 00:17:53,843.19841 Plenty of kinds of oak. 337 00:17:53,873.19841 --> 00:17:55,253.19841 French is not always better. 338 00:17:55,793.19841 --> 00:17:57,38.19841 Young is not always better either. 339 00:17:57,565.525824 --> 00:17:57,855.525824 Yeah. 340 00:17:57,860.525824 --> 00:17:58,60.525824 Yeah. 341 00:17:58,60.525824 --> 00:17:59,500.525824 And I have one for you too. 342 00:17:59,800.525824 --> 00:18:05,200.525824 Oh, that to make steely wines, you need stainless steel, Keith. 343 00:18:05,200.525824 --> 00:18:05,980.525824 That's just not true. 344 00:18:06,760.525824 --> 00:18:06,980.525824 It is not. 345 00:18:06,980.525824 --> 00:18:07,390.525824 It's not true. 346 00:18:07,600.525824 --> 00:18:08,650.525824 Think about Chablis. 347 00:18:08,650.525824 --> 00:18:15,10.525824 Chablis is defined by its use of neutral oak, and it is razor sharp. 348 00:18:15,10.525824 --> 00:18:18,400.525824 It has that wonderful high toned acidity that Psalms love. 349 00:18:18,700.525824 --> 00:18:22,720.525824 And you get that not from stainless steel, but actually from neutral oak. 350 00:18:23,260.525824 --> 00:18:25,690.525824 Here, here, here, and finally. 351 00:18:26,770.525824 --> 00:18:27,880.525824 Oak is passe. 352 00:18:28,390.525824 --> 00:18:33,430.525824 No, oak is not passe as the arbiter of all things cool in the world. 353 00:18:33,430.525824 --> 00:18:35,830.525824 As you know, I say oak is. 354 00:18:36,100.525824 --> 00:18:37,780.525824 Oak is still hip people. 355 00:18:38,770.525824 --> 00:18:40,120.525824 Oak is not just a hipster. 356 00:18:40,450.525824 --> 00:18:41,500.525824 It is good for you. 357 00:18:41,500.525824 --> 00:18:43,510.525824 It's lovely imbalance though. 358 00:18:43,720.525824 --> 00:18:44,860.525824 We need to have an imbalance. 359 00:18:45,100.525824 --> 00:18:47,440.525824 You can't just make wine and eggs people you.. 360 00:18:47,995.525824 --> 00:18:51,505.525824 I, I can't believe you have to say that, please. 361 00:18:51,805.525824 --> 00:18:52,255.525824 Oak. 362 00:18:53,170.525824 --> 00:18:53,390.525824 Oak. 363 00:18:54,235.525824 --> 00:18:54,625.525824 all right. 364 00:18:54,625.525824 --> 00:18:54,985.525824 Keith. 365 00:18:54,985.525824 --> 00:18:58,915.525824 I think this was a wonderful little tour of the world of Oak. 366 00:18:58,975.525824 --> 00:18:59,65.525824 Yes. 367 00:18:59,365.525824 --> 00:19:01,885.525824 The trends in oak and so people have an understanding. 368 00:19:01,885.525824 --> 00:19:04,465.525824 You know, things do always come back around. 369 00:19:04,465.525824 --> 00:19:13,885.525824 I have found in my classes recently, a lot of people are finding that they really like the added depth and complexity that oak will give wines. 370 00:19:14,260.525824 --> 00:19:23,900.525824 So folks who always had, you know, New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc are now finding that having a little more complexity is a nice change. 371 00:19:23,900.525824 --> 00:19:25,40.525824 So just keep that in mind. 372 00:19:25,40.525824 --> 00:19:28,580.525824 Things are always changing in wine, just like in the wider world. 373 00:19:29,90.525824 --> 00:19:29,840.525824 Absolutely. 374 00:19:29,840.525824 --> 00:19:33,80.525824 And one of the things that we find, 'cause because we're teaching. 375 00:19:33,695.525824 --> 00:19:34,445.525824 All the time. 376 00:19:34,445.525824 --> 00:19:35,105.525824 And we've done it. 377 00:19:35,315.525824 --> 00:19:36,395.525824 I've done it for 20 years. 378 00:19:36,395.525824 --> 00:19:37,475.525824 You've done it for a decade. 379 00:19:37,805.525824 --> 00:19:39,395.525824 We can see the ebbs and flows. 380 00:19:39,395.525824 --> 00:19:39,485.525824 Mm-hmm. 381 00:19:39,815.525824 --> 00:19:41,735.525824 And right now Oak is coming back. 382 00:19:41,825.525824 --> 00:19:41,975.525824 Yeah. 383 00:19:41,975.525824 --> 00:19:43,925.525824 That's the one thing people, Oak is coming back. 384 00:19:44,225.525824 --> 00:19:45,485.525824 you won't see that in the marketplace. 385 00:19:45,485.525824 --> 00:19:47,345.525824 People won't be talking about it for another couple years. 386 00:19:47,751.0918617 --> 00:19:52,551.0918617 And if you wanna be on the cutting edge of wine and understand it well, then you should. 387 00:19:52,701.0918617 --> 00:19:54,261.0918617 You should take a Somal a class. 388 00:19:54,561.0918617 --> 00:19:55,641.0918617 You should take it with me. 389 00:19:55,701.0918617 --> 00:19:58,51.0918617 Take it with Alana, at the National Wine School. 390 00:19:58,51.0918617 --> 00:19:59,191.0918617 Wine School, us. 391 00:19:59,191.0918617 --> 00:20:01,861.0918617 You can earn your som a certification online. 392 00:20:02,461.0918617 --> 00:20:03,271.0918617 Online. 393 00:20:03,811.0918617 --> 00:20:06,271.0918617 And I do not, I do not drop a single F bomb. 394 00:20:07,171.0918617 --> 00:20:09,121.0918617 Not a single one They get bleeped out. 395 00:20:09,271.0918617 --> 00:20:09,476.0918617 Yeah, they do. 396 00:20:09,531.0918617 --> 00:20:11,1.0918617 But if you want all the bleeps. 397 00:20:11,581.0918617 --> 00:20:13,291.0918617 you can come in person. 398 00:20:13,931.0918617 --> 00:20:16,841.0918617 That's the Wine School of Philadelphia where we teach full time. 399 00:20:16,901.0918617 --> 00:20:19,931.0918617 Please do join us if you're in the area for a class. 400 00:20:19,981.0918617 --> 00:20:21,721.0918617 Heath is hyper. 401 00:20:22,126.0918617 --> 00:20:25,456.0918617 He's caffeinated and he's always ready to swear. 402 00:20:25,516.0918617 --> 00:20:25,996.0918617 That's right. 403 00:20:25,996.0918617 --> 00:20:30,766.0918617 They can't close us down largely 'cause we actually bribe all the, uh, the, the local judges. 404 00:20:30,841.0918617 --> 00:20:32,531.0918617 It's very Easy to all this wine. 405 00:20:32,741.0918617 --> 00:20:33,521.0918617 Oh, it's amazing. 406 00:20:33,521.0918617 --> 00:20:33,806.0918617 It's amazing. 407 00:20:34,556.0918617 --> 00:20:36,746.0918617 So, yes, come love to see you. 408 00:20:37,106.0918617 --> 00:20:38,876.0918617 please like and subscribe. 409 00:20:38,876.0918617 --> 00:20:44,661.0918617 That does so much for our viewership, especially if you tell your friends. 410 00:20:45,756.0918617 --> 00:20:47,16.0918617 so please, I have to beg you. 411 00:20:47,166.0918617 --> 00:20:48,486.0918617 Come please like me. 412 00:20:48,486.0918617 --> 00:20:50,676.0918617 What do we have next up? Oh, that's a good question. 413 00:20:50,736.0918617 --> 00:20:54,556.0918617 I think I know, 'cause you told me what it's gonna be Climate change. 414 00:20:54,606.0918617 --> 00:20:54,736.0918617 Yes. 415 00:20:54,736.0918617 --> 00:20:55,16.0918617 Okay. 416 00:20:55,22.0918617 --> 00:20:55,111.0918617 Alright. 417 00:20:56,131.0918617 --> 00:20:56,611.0918617 Wonderful. 418 00:20:56,791.0918617 --> 00:20:57,961.0918617 Thanks everyone. 419 00:20:58,81.0918617 --> 00:20:58,231.0918617 Bye. 420 00:20:58,231.0918617 --> 00:20:58,771.0918617 Have a great night. 421 00:20:58,771.0918617 --> 00:20:58,781.0918617 Cheers.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
This is After Wine School.
I am Keith Wallace.
This.
It's Alana Zerbe.
Welcome.
It's great to be here.
It is.
You know what we're gonna talk about today.
Please tell me Oak.
We're talking about oak, we're talking about flavor bombs.
We're there.
It's something that people either love it, they hate it, but they're gonna have to listen to me talk about it.
(00:34):
And you too.
And me too.
Yeah.
It's fascinating because oak is one of those things.
It's very divisive.
Yes.
And we'll talk a little bit about that in our episode.
It's also symbolic.
It has huge cultural cachet and especially in wine.
It really is, and for a long time has been a major flex for a wine maker to make.
(00:57):
I've made that flex so many times.
My guns are made of oak.
My guns are made of oak.
Alright, folks here.
Okay. 30 00:01:08,62.180164259 --> 00:01:09,172.180164259 Question for you. 31 00:01:09,592.180164259 --> 00:01:10,222.180164259 What does Shali. 32 00:01:12,97.180164259 --> 00:01:16,387.180164259 California Cabernet and Australian Shiraz all have in common. 33 00:01:16,927.180164259 --> 00:01:22,57.180164259 Their reputations were either made or almost broken by their use of oak. 34 00:01:23,617.180164259 --> 00:01:23,887.180164259 Ugh. 35 00:01:24,157.180164259 --> 00:01:24,637.180164259 Yeah. 36 00:01:24,967.180164259 --> 00:01:25,417.180164259 Awesome. 37 00:01:25,417.180164259 --> 00:01:26,647.180164259 All right, let's talk about it. 38 00:01:26,947.180164259 --> 00:01:32,17.180164259 So, something that's really interesting about Oak is that in the history of wine making. 39 00:01:32,377.180164259 --> 00:01:42,582.18016426 It was not our forebears, the Romans or the Greeks who get so much credit for viticultural methods, for tending the grape things that are so relevant in our wine world today. 40 00:01:43,217.18016426 --> 00:01:44,747.18016426 They didn't know about oak. 41 00:01:45,137.18016426 --> 00:01:54,77.18016426 It was the GS actually who were using oak to store their beer, those damn Gs, those damn gulls beer. 42 00:01:54,497.18016426 --> 00:02:10,277.18016426 So when the Romans encountered the Gallic tribes, they were still using clay and flora, just like the Greeks had to transport their wine and wine at that time because of the resin seals had a pretty funky taste. 43 00:02:10,302.18016426 --> 00:02:13,392.18016426 Oh, it wasn't just funky. 44 00:02:14,472.18016426 --> 00:02:15,822.18016426 It was like pinesol. 45 00:02:15,827.18016426 --> 00:02:16,247.18016426 Intense. 46 00:02:16,247.18016426 --> 00:02:18,467.18016426 Because they oftentimes use pine resin. 47 00:02:18,472.18016426 --> 00:02:19,682.18016426 It was pretty nasty pine resin. 48 00:02:19,687.18016426 --> 00:02:27,497.18016426 And they did have other herbs and spices added in, but what they realized, they saw the galls using these barrels. 49 00:02:27,497.18016426 --> 00:02:29,237.18016426 They thought, let's try that for wine. 50 00:02:29,507.18016426 --> 00:02:32,327.18016426 And over time, not only was this incredibly. 51 00:02:32,637.18016426 --> 00:02:34,137.18016426 Easy to transport. 52 00:02:34,457.18016426 --> 00:02:36,17.18016426 oak was abundant. 53 00:02:36,107.18016426 --> 00:02:37,607.18016426 It was pliable. 54 00:02:37,607.18016426 --> 00:02:38,987.18016426 It was watertight. 55 00:02:39,287.18016426 --> 00:02:43,607.18016426 And lo and behold, it also seasoned the wine in a very pleasant way. 56 00:02:44,507.18016426 --> 00:02:45,887.18016426 That's, that is correct. 57 00:02:45,987.18016426 --> 00:02:49,797.18016426 But this is the thing about oak, white oak, and we're talking about specifically white oak. 58 00:02:50,257.18016426 --> 00:02:56,647.18016426 this isn't the oak you use for making your stairs or your floors. 59 00:02:56,887.18016426 --> 00:02:58,687.18016426 It's very specific white oak. 60 00:02:59,892.18016426 --> 00:03:00,912.18016426 Let me put it this way. 61 00:03:00,942.18016426 --> 00:03:01,692.18016426 It never rots. 62 00:03:01,752.18016426 --> 00:03:02,412.18016426 It cannot rot. 63 00:03:02,442.18016426 --> 00:03:03,462.18016426 It will not rot. 64 00:03:03,832.18016426 --> 00:03:07,12.18016426 We have a barrel outside the swine school in Philadelphia. 65 00:03:07,342.18016426 --> 00:03:08,452.18016426 It's been out there for a decade. 66 00:03:08,542.18016426 --> 00:03:09,802.18016426 It has, it will never rot. 67 00:03:09,982.18016426 --> 00:03:12,472.18016426 It's also completely watertight to this day. 68 00:03:13,42.18016426 --> 00:03:18,125.51349759 That is amazing to build a boat or build a barrel. 69 00:03:18,125.51349759 --> 00:03:23,665.51349759 this was a massive innovation in the world of wine and storing anything, that you can just put it in there. 70 00:03:23,665.51349759 --> 00:03:24,655.51349759 You don't have to worry about it. 71 00:03:24,745.51349759 --> 00:03:25,915.51349759 That's amazing. 72 00:03:26,515.51349759 --> 00:03:26,845.51349759 Now. 73 00:03:27,642.18016426 --> 00:03:28,722.18016426 A couple things about this. 74 00:03:28,902.18016426 --> 00:03:32,532.18016426 First of all, there isn't just one species. 75 00:03:32,562.18016426 --> 00:03:33,432.18016426 There's a couple of them. 76 00:03:34,422.18016426 --> 00:03:35,652.18016426 There's french oak. 77 00:03:36,12.18016426 --> 00:03:38,172.18016426 That's what's mostly used you see in a lot of wine. 78 00:03:38,172.18016426 --> 00:03:39,462.18016426 But there's also Baltic oak. 79 00:03:39,852.18016426 --> 00:03:41,57.18016426 It's not really used anymore at all. 80 00:03:41,652.18016426 --> 00:03:43,992.18016426 I want to know some Baltic Oak wines. 81 00:03:43,992.18016426 --> 00:03:46,92.18016426 I wanna try them, so send them my way. 82 00:03:46,872.18016426 --> 00:03:52,400.81501442 That said, there's also American Oak, that's commonly used to this day and actually bourbon. 83 00:03:52,580.81501442 --> 00:03:53,840.81501442 Mm, love my bourbon. 84 00:03:54,74.14834776 --> 00:03:55,64.14834776 And there's also, uh. 85 00:03:55,517.48168109 --> 00:03:59,567.48168109 Croatian Oak, which we usually know as Lovon Oak or Slavonia Oak. 86 00:04:00,47.48168109 --> 00:04:00,677.48168109 So we have those. 87 00:04:00,677.48168109 --> 00:04:01,667.48168109 So a little bit different. 88 00:04:01,667.48168109 --> 00:04:03,617.48168109 They all have different kind of flavor profiles. 89 00:04:04,70.81501442 --> 00:04:06,740.81501442 American Oak is big and vanilla. 90 00:04:07,297.48168109 --> 00:04:07,837.48168109 Baltic Oak. 91 00:04:07,837.48168109 --> 00:04:08,527.48168109 I have no idea. 92 00:04:08,527.48168109 --> 00:04:09,667.48168109 Like I said, I have no idea. 93 00:04:09,997.48168109 --> 00:04:11,917.48168109 and then you have French Oak, which is very nuanced. 94 00:04:11,917.48168109 --> 00:04:14,17.48168109 And in the middle of there, there's that Croatian. 95 00:04:14,347.48168109 --> 00:04:15,67.48168109 A little bit of difference. 96 00:04:15,397.48168109 --> 00:04:16,447.48168109 It gets more complicated. 97 00:04:17,167.48168109 --> 00:04:18,757.48168109 'cause when you build a barrel. 98 00:04:19,237.48168109 --> 00:04:22,327.48168109 We've always had to burn the inside to bend that oak. 99 00:04:22,327.48168109 --> 00:04:27,594.14834776 It's pliable, but more pliable, and it'll expand into watertight barrel. 100 00:04:27,594.14834776 --> 00:04:36,834.14834776 If you heat the inside so it chars the inside of the barrel, and that char that flavors the wine, that's that toasty. 101 00:04:36,984.14834776 --> 00:04:41,24.14834776 You ever have a bottle of wine? It's like, oh, that tastes like, chocolate, or it tastes like espresso. 102 00:04:41,24.14834776 --> 00:04:43,64.14834776 That's why it's that char on the inside. 103 00:04:43,364.14834776 --> 00:04:44,714.14834776 Now we can control that char. 104 00:04:45,254.14834776 --> 00:04:54,574.14834776 It could be a light toast, a very, very light, delicate toast that's gonna give a very slight essence And that's what we, when we're making bourbons, aging barrels, that's what we use. 105 00:04:54,574.14834776 --> 00:04:55,714.14834776 Like you get massive. 106 00:04:55,774.14834776 --> 00:04:59,284.14834776 Massive oak Burt flavors, that's intense. 107 00:04:59,464.14834776 --> 00:05:05,884.14834776 But for wine making, typically we use medium to medium plus char in the toast in the inside, that toasting. 108 00:05:06,304.14834776 --> 00:05:14,644.14834776 It's a nice balance between the flavors of the oak, like you talked about, and then the char, and then it's a little more complicated. 109 00:05:15,604.14834776 --> 00:05:23,159.60289321 It's a little more complicated than that people, because it's not just the varieties and the toast, it's also the size. 110 00:05:23,399.60289321 --> 00:05:24,629.60289321 Now, if you go to any winery. 111 00:05:24,959.60289321 --> 00:05:28,79.60289321 Any wiring in the world, what you see are barix. 112 00:05:28,79.60289321 --> 00:05:31,499.60289321 Now, those are the traditional Bordeaux style of barrels. 113 00:05:31,859.60289321 --> 00:05:36,134.60289321 They're the, they're not small, but they're the smallest ones we use in professional wine making. 114 00:05:36,674.60289321 --> 00:05:37,634.60289321 Fantastic. 115 00:05:38,54.60289321 --> 00:05:57,687.33016594 If you put a Cabernet or Shiraz in one of those barrels for a year, two at most delicious, amazing, you come out, you have all those oak flavors and those wine flavors, What if you wanna put something in longer? What if you have a wine like say, like a nelo from Barolo? that's so massively tanic that you want to age it for longer. 116 00:05:58,317.33016594 --> 00:06:03,140.66349927 What if you wanna age it for 10, 20 years? Well, that's when you need larger barrels. 117 00:06:03,440.66349927 --> 00:06:10,940.66349927 And those larger barrels, they give a completely different oak flavor profile because you have. 118 00:06:11,510.66349927 --> 00:06:15,110.66349927 Less contact with the oak, with much more volume of wine. 119 00:06:15,410.66349927 --> 00:06:26,394.29986291 But over time, because of how aging and how hydro systems work and how wine flows and moves, even when it's still within that barrel, it ages differently. 120 00:06:26,454.29986291 --> 00:06:33,204.29986291 The flavors are completely different, and we oftentimes are using a different kind of oak rather than French oak, these are called botes. 121 00:06:33,204.29986291 --> 00:06:34,344.29986291 If they're in Barolo. 122 00:06:34,795.96652958 --> 00:06:37,675.96652958 And these are usually the Slovo Oak. 123 00:06:37,915.96652958 --> 00:06:43,165.96652958 And we use similar barrels in Rioja, but they use American Oak. 124 00:06:43,985.96652958 --> 00:06:45,785.96652958 So people, uh, size matters. 125 00:06:46,25.96652958 --> 00:06:46,535.96652958 I'm sorry. 126 00:06:48,354.29986291 --> 00:06:49,589.29986291 So, yeah, there you go. 127 00:06:49,589.29986291 --> 00:06:54,174.29986291 I had to say it, it, it, Hey, you know, you know, sometimes. 128 00:06:55,154.29986291 --> 00:06:56,144.29986291 Sometimes it does. 129 00:06:57,74.29986291 --> 00:07:01,394.29986291 So we did cover a lot of interesting things about oak in the episode. 130 00:07:01,424.29986291 --> 00:07:03,374.29986291 WTF is in my wine. 131 00:07:03,404.29986291 --> 00:07:07,394.29986291 we went into a little more about what the specific flavors are. 132 00:07:07,754.29986291 --> 00:07:09,134.29986291 Yes, the chemical compounds. 133 00:07:09,134.29986291 --> 00:07:11,984.29986291 So folks, if you are interested in that, definitely. 134 00:07:11,984.29986291 --> 00:07:17,834.29986291 Look back in the catalog and find that episode and the segment on actually oak as an additive. 135 00:07:17,984.29986291 --> 00:07:26,804.29986291 so, Keith, can you tell us a little bit about when the turning point is? Like when Oak really acquires Oh, its status, yeah. 136 00:07:26,804.29986291 --> 00:07:30,974.29986291 As a symbol of luxury and class and fine wine. 137 00:07:31,64.29986291 --> 00:07:32,204.29986291 Oh, that's actually a great question. 138 00:07:32,474.29986291 --> 00:07:32,684.29986291 Okay. 139 00:07:32,684.29986291 --> 00:07:36,825.20895382 So it was in Bordeaux, like, the border of Lays, they went from like being. 140 00:07:37,640.20895382 --> 00:07:44,690.20895382 Like outlaws to by the 18 hundreds, early 18 hundreds, they were already had established as being, making fine wines. 141 00:07:45,70.20895382 --> 00:07:46,660.20895382 Big, bigger, heavier reds. 142 00:07:46,660.20895382 --> 00:07:47,966.87562049 They went from, a little throwback. 143 00:07:47,966.87562049 --> 00:07:50,886.87562049 They, they started making, sweeter funky, weird, cheap wines. 144 00:07:50,916.87562048 --> 00:07:57,646.87562048 But by the 18 hundreds, they're making banging wines and they're the first ones, and they're using Baltic oak. 145 00:07:58,6.87562048 --> 00:07:59,956.87562048 They're using this oak that no one ever uses. 146 00:07:59,956.87562048 --> 00:08:01,546.87562048 Now, I don't even know what it tastes like. 147 00:08:01,596.87562048 --> 00:08:09,433.54228715 It was, I think, largely this was inexpensive, but there was a Napoleonic blockade of Bordeaux. 148 00:08:09,973.54228715 --> 00:08:10,243.54228715 Right. 149 00:08:10,333.54228715 --> 00:08:11,83.54228715 18 hundreds. 150 00:08:11,143.54228715 --> 00:08:12,43.54228715 Lot of wars. 151 00:08:12,423.54228715 --> 00:08:21,713.54228715 and they couldn't get Baltic Oak in, so what they did was they actually started making barrels with the local oak, with the French oak, French oak. 152 00:08:21,743.54228715 --> 00:08:27,170.20895382 It's all over the place, right? It's, there's plentiful, and this is what I love about the wine industry. 153 00:08:27,170.20895382 --> 00:08:28,130.20895382 We've always done this. 154 00:08:28,580.20895382 --> 00:08:31,10.20895382 If we have to do something, we have to adapt. 155 00:08:31,150.20895382 --> 00:08:36,660.20895382 So the French were like, ah, yeah, Baltic Oak, nah, That stuff was just, that was dog's breakfast. 156 00:08:36,660.20895382 --> 00:08:38,310.20895382 No French Oak though. 157 00:08:38,520.20895382 --> 00:08:39,750.20895382 No, that's where it's at. 158 00:08:39,900.20895382 --> 00:08:41,850.20895382 And so they slowly migrated over. 159 00:08:42,150.20895382 --> 00:08:46,320.20895382 All French oak and the 18 hundreds was a huge time for Bord Oak. 160 00:08:46,320.20895382 --> 00:08:52,230.20895382 'cause that's when they really established their brand, when they became this insanely amazing place. 161 00:08:52,540.20895382 --> 00:08:53,530.20895382 1855. 162 00:08:53,860.20895382 --> 00:08:59,770.20895382 You know that now they, um, most somalias actually have that date, 1855 tattooed on their chest. 163 00:09:00,100.20895382 --> 00:09:01,960.20895382 Um, it's just something you have to do. 164 00:09:02,50.20895382 --> 00:09:03,130.20895382 Um, you get that. 165 00:09:03,400.20895382 --> 00:09:08,23.54228715 'cause 1855 is what it's a classification system for. 166 00:09:08,23.54228715 --> 00:09:09,608.54228715 Look at my, come on. 167 00:09:10,660.76870225 --> 00:09:11,980.76870225 Yes, that is. 168 00:09:11,980.76870225 --> 00:09:12,910.76870225 Yes, exactly. 169 00:09:13,0.76870225 --> 00:09:14,920.76870225 Uh, hey, you know what? Yeah, no. 170 00:09:14,920.76870225 --> 00:09:15,190.76870225 Yeah. 171 00:09:15,550.76870225 --> 00:09:16,960.76870225 Grown crew baby. 172 00:09:18,129.10203558 --> 00:09:18,309.10203558 Yeah. 173 00:09:18,309.10203558 --> 00:09:21,459.10203558 Can we, can we get that like in post, just like have 'em tattooed? I should get that. 174 00:09:21,649.10203558 --> 00:09:26,54.10203558 By 1855, right? The whole classification system has been founded on the idea that. 175 00:09:27,184.10203558 --> 00:09:30,974.10203558 Bordeaux is amazing but it wasn't just Bordeaux, it was actually the Oak. 176 00:09:31,304.10203558 --> 00:09:40,994.10203558 So the 18 hundreds, when you have this establishment, established that French wine, you know, especially Bordeaux in aged in French Oak is. 177 00:09:41,949.10203558 --> 00:09:45,749.10203558 the highest peak of wine, the peak of luxury, everything. 178 00:09:45,809.10203558 --> 00:09:46,439.10203558 That was it. 179 00:09:47,279.10203558 --> 00:09:47,969.10203558 I love that. 180 00:09:47,969.10203558 --> 00:09:52,669.10203558 I love that our story of oak begins with the Gallic tribes Yes. 181 00:09:52,669.10203558 --> 00:09:54,79.10203558 Using local French oak. 182 00:09:54,159.10203558 --> 00:09:58,539.10203558 And then over the centuries, other types of oak become preferred. 183 00:09:58,539.10203558 --> 00:09:58,629.10203558 Yes. 184 00:09:59,349.10203558 --> 00:10:00,519.10203558 But you're absolutely right. 185 00:10:01,514.10203558 --> 00:10:03,524.10203558 You no longer have access to something. 186 00:10:03,574.10203558 --> 00:10:08,134.10203558 The best marketing move is to say, oh, well it's even better now. 187 00:10:08,184.10203558 --> 00:10:11,274.10203558 Than in fact, they're going back to something that they always had. 188 00:10:11,324.10203558 --> 00:10:14,744.10203558 And the Romans were like, of course, in the beginning when Romans saw 'em doing it, they were like, P. 189 00:10:15,549.10203558 --> 00:10:16,419.10203558 God damn Gs. 190 00:10:16,419.10203558 --> 00:10:17,794.10203558 What do they know? Barbarians. 191 00:10:17,799.10203558 --> 00:10:18,519.10203558 Barbarians. 192 00:10:18,519.10203558 --> 00:10:20,469.10203558 And they resented using it. 193 00:10:20,739.10203558 --> 00:10:26,199.10203558 And they actually, in the beginning, they only would use it if they were too far away to get the phora in. 194 00:10:26,199.10203558 --> 00:10:26,859.10203558 They're like, all right, fine. 195 00:10:26,859.10203558 --> 00:10:28,449.10203558 We'll use the old barrels fine. 196 00:10:28,539.10203558 --> 00:10:31,349.10203558 But then eventually It becomes the thing. 197 00:10:32,129.10203558 --> 00:10:33,839.10203558 Now let's jump ahead a little bit. 198 00:10:34,499.10203558 --> 00:10:35,279.10203558 We talked about Bordeaux. 199 00:10:35,279.10203558 --> 00:10:36,389.10203558 Let's talk about Burgundy a little bit. 200 00:10:36,449.10203558 --> 00:10:37,469.10203558 Is that okay? Yeah, please. 201 00:10:37,469.10203558 --> 00:10:44,939.10203558 All right, because, you know, I wanna talk about like how, 'cause how did Americans all fall in love with oak? Because they fell. 202 00:10:44,939.10203558 --> 00:10:48,689.10203558 I, I swear to God, Americans fell in love with oak before they fell in love with wine. 203 00:10:49,209.10203558 --> 00:10:50,770.76870225 so Burgundy. 204 00:10:51,310.76870225 --> 00:10:53,560.76870225 Now there's two kinds of white burgundy really. 205 00:10:53,560.76870225 --> 00:11:06,167.22930158 I mean, there's more than that, but you have your white burgundy, your Chablis, which is austere and beautiful and lovely, but it's aged traditionally in neutral old French barrels. 206 00:11:06,257.22930158 --> 00:11:06,707.22930158 Beautiful. 207 00:11:07,607.22930158 --> 00:11:12,287.22930158 Further south you have Monte Shey and Che, which is, it's warmer. 208 00:11:12,287.22930158 --> 00:11:14,227.22930158 So the Chardonnay is richer and riper. 209 00:11:14,587.22930158 --> 00:11:17,527.22930158 They use newer oak 'cause it can handle it. 210 00:11:17,787.22930158 --> 00:11:22,527.22930158 and it has this wonderful textures and a little bit of oak flavors. 211 00:11:23,217.22930158 --> 00:11:34,227.22930158 But when Americans started making Chardonnay, in the sixties and seventies, they adapt the CHE style by the eighties, Americans are falling in love with these chardonnays. 212 00:11:34,704.961821 --> 00:11:40,164.961821 And not just the Chardonnays, right? the American, especially the Napa winemakers they're riffing off of the French. 213 00:11:40,554.961821 --> 00:11:43,494.961821 but Americans are saying, we love this, but more oak. 214 00:11:43,674.961821 --> 00:11:44,154.961821 More oak. 215 00:11:44,334.961821 --> 00:11:47,154.961821 We want oak and like we want it. 216 00:11:47,214.961821 --> 00:11:49,674.961821 We want, we love that cinnamon, we love that nutmeg. 217 00:11:49,674.961821 --> 00:11:52,194.961821 We love those big toasty flavors. 218 00:11:52,494.961821 --> 00:11:56,124.961821 Give me more oak and, yeah, no, that's how they did it too. 219 00:11:56,124.961821 --> 00:11:58,614.961821 And they were just screaming, more oak, please. 220 00:11:58,644.961821 --> 00:12:03,259.961821 and so of course American winemakers, of course, newer and newer barrels. 221 00:12:03,968.21653798 --> 00:12:12,138.21653798 And for longer, longer periods and your oak wines are getting oakier and oakier and more cinnamon and the more nutmeg and more intense Right. 222 00:12:12,138.21653798 --> 00:12:17,738.21653798 And then when the Australians got into the business, They just started, they're like, oh, Americans want oak. 223 00:12:17,948.21653798 --> 00:12:21,408.21653798 So we're like, well, we're gonna age our Shiraz and American Oak. 224 00:12:21,558.21653798 --> 00:12:23,478.21653798 We're gonna age it in French and American. 225 00:12:23,478.21653798 --> 00:12:25,548.21653798 Maybe we'll throw in some other kinds of oak in there too. 226 00:12:25,728.21653798 --> 00:12:29,778.21653798 Maybe we'll even throw a couple barrels of that Baltic oak, see if Keith can even notice the difference. 227 00:12:29,958.21653798 --> 00:12:32,208.21653798 And they just like bombed us with oak barrels. 228 00:12:32,208.21653798 --> 00:12:34,668.21653798 Like, I mean, it was literally, it was a war crime. 229 00:12:34,758.21653798 --> 00:12:37,158.21653798 The amount of, Oak they put in their wines. 230 00:12:37,338.21653798 --> 00:12:40,518.21653798 This is, by the way, fruit bombs, this is what we're talking about. 231 00:12:40,518.21653798 --> 00:12:41,388.21653798 Those Australians. 232 00:12:41,388.21653798 --> 00:12:42,258.21653798 Those Californians. 233 00:12:42,558.21653798 --> 00:12:42,828.21653798 Yeah. 234 00:12:42,928.21653798 --> 00:12:47,758.21653798 And just to clarify, the Americans in the seventies and eighties Yeah. 235 00:12:47,758.21653798 --> 00:12:48,898.21653798 They were using French oak. 236 00:12:48,963.21653798 --> 00:12:49,823.21653798 Oh, absolutely. 237 00:12:49,823.21653798 --> 00:12:50,63.21653798 Yeah. 238 00:12:50,63.21653798 --> 00:12:50,223.21653798 Okay. 239 00:12:50,243.21653798 --> 00:12:52,738.21653798 Oh, absolutely everyone, 'cause they're barring from the French. 240 00:12:52,738.21653798 --> 00:12:54,658.21653798 So we were only using French, but then. 241 00:12:55,53.21653798 --> 00:13:05,113.21653798 as the Americans were crying for more and more, we started using, American Oak and to this day we actually do, like if you, there's still some red Zinfandels out there that are still aged in American Oak. 242 00:13:05,113.21653798 --> 00:13:05,893.21653798 But that was it. 243 00:13:06,313.21653798 --> 00:13:13,93.21653798 We did it to ourselves, like the trend was delicate Balance wines coming out from France. 244 00:13:13,307.89134376 --> 00:13:14,927.89134376 And then we just wanted more and more. 245 00:13:15,347.89134376 --> 00:13:17,447.89134376 Yeah, we just, we, we asked for it. 246 00:13:17,681.9945624 --> 00:13:18,281.9945624 We got it. 247 00:13:18,281.9945624 --> 00:13:24,821.9945624 And that's the thing, when I was a winemaker in the early aughts, late nineties, you could not give people enough oak. 248 00:13:25,301.9945624 --> 00:13:36,161.9945624 The idea was like, how do you introduce more oak in? Like, can, can we put oak ships into the barrels? Like trying to figure out like, how do you do that? Oh, seriously, really? Oh, I did that. 249 00:13:36,851.9945624 --> 00:13:37,331.9945624 Oh yeah. 250 00:13:37,391.9945624 --> 00:13:38,51.9945624 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 251 00:13:38,51.9945624 --> 00:13:38,891.9945624 No, I did that. 252 00:13:39,191.9945624 --> 00:13:41,711.9945624 unfortunately though, that was terrible. 253 00:13:42,21.9945624 --> 00:13:43,461.9945624 it tasted like cinnamon. 254 00:13:43,751.9945624 --> 00:13:44,891.9945624 Everything tasted like cinnamon. 255 00:13:44,891.9945624 --> 00:13:46,751.9945624 Like we pulled out that one test barrel. 256 00:13:46,751.9945624 --> 00:13:50,291.9945624 It was like, this is, it tasted like breakfast cereal. 257 00:13:50,291.9945624 --> 00:13:52,646.9945624 You know that breakfast cereal that tastes like cinnamon? I love that. 258 00:13:52,646.9945624 --> 00:13:52,886.9945624 Yeah. 259 00:13:53,86.9945624 --> 00:13:53,771.9945624 Cinnamon Toast Crunch. 260 00:13:53,771.9945624 --> 00:13:54,11.9945624 Yes. 261 00:13:54,11.9945624 --> 00:13:54,311.9945624 Yes. 262 00:13:54,311.9945624 --> 00:13:55,61.9945624 A cinnamon toast Crunch. 263 00:13:55,116.9945624 --> 00:13:56,406.9945624 it was a barrel of that. 264 00:13:56,526.9945624 --> 00:13:57,216.9945624 Oh, I love that. 265 00:13:57,306.9945624 --> 00:13:57,846.9945624 Oh my God. 266 00:13:57,896.9945624 --> 00:13:58,586.9945624 And so. 267 00:13:59,231.9945624 --> 00:14:08,641.9945624 At that time though, everything that highly rated, very expensive, top of the line wines had in common was a huge amount of oak. 268 00:14:08,881.9945624 --> 00:14:10,291.9945624 Insane amount of oak. 269 00:14:10,321.9945624 --> 00:14:11,206.9945624 Yes, absolutely. 270 00:14:11,971.9945624 --> 00:14:12,421.9945624 Absolutely. 271 00:14:12,421.9945624 --> 00:14:13,141.9945624 That is. 272 00:14:13,681.9945624 --> 00:14:15,601.9945624 Yeah, the flavor bombs. 273 00:14:15,601.9945624 --> 00:14:15,961.9945624 Baby. 274 00:14:16,111.9945624 --> 00:14:17,221.9945624 Flavor bombs. 275 00:14:17,291.9945624 --> 00:14:21,21.9945624 so you were in Napa and Italy making wines? yes. 276 00:14:21,111.9945624 --> 00:14:25,191.9945624 And then I started getting into wine in the late nineties, early aughts. 277 00:14:25,311.9945624 --> 00:14:27,801.9945624 And that's when the backlash was happening. 278 00:14:27,921.9945624 --> 00:14:32,301.9945624 It was starting as soon as we hit our peak, y'all became haters. 279 00:14:32,643.66122907 --> 00:14:32,863.66122907 Yes. 280 00:14:33,668.66122907 --> 00:14:34,268.66122907 Yes. 281 00:14:34,298.66122907 --> 00:14:36,578.66122907 And you say you all, and it's really y'all. 282 00:14:36,608.66122907 --> 00:14:38,228.66122907 'cause I was working in the, in the south. 283 00:14:38,348.66122907 --> 00:14:39,878.66122907 Oh, I was in Virginia, Northern Virginia. 284 00:14:39,878.66122907 --> 00:14:40,208.66122907 That's right. 285 00:14:40,208.66122907 --> 00:14:40,538.66122907 You were. 286 00:14:40,628.66122907 --> 00:14:49,508.66122907 And I was working for a winemaker who, because of the ubiquity of Napa style, Chardonnay actually hated Chardonnay. 287 00:14:49,958.66122907 --> 00:15:01,808.66122907 And she was a member of what was common back then of the anything but chardonnay movement, the A, B, C, I'll drink anything but chardonnay The tail on this has just been so long. 288 00:15:01,808.66122907 --> 00:15:06,548.66122907 People to this day think that they don't like Chardonnay, when in fact it's the oak. 289 00:15:07,118.66122907 --> 00:15:12,278.66122907 So there was a huge backlash against a mono flavor culture, basically. 290 00:15:12,283.66122907 --> 00:15:13,533.66122907 Oh, I love that mono flavor. 291 00:15:13,533.66122907 --> 00:15:13,933.66122907 Mm-hmm. 292 00:15:14,13.66122907 --> 00:15:15,698.66122907 Oh, you, that's a play on monoculture. 293 00:15:15,698.66122907 --> 00:15:16,268.66122907 I love that. 294 00:15:16,448.66122907 --> 00:15:16,718.66122907 Mm-hmm. 295 00:15:16,958.66122907 --> 00:15:17,228.66122907 Thank you. 296 00:15:17,313.66122907 --> 00:15:17,613.66122907 All right. 297 00:15:17,808.66122907 --> 00:15:32,578.66122907 And sort of the symbol of this became Robert Parker because his palette really defined the eighties and nineties, and it was the wine advocate and then other publications similar to his that used the a hundred point rating scale. 298 00:15:33,295.32789573 --> 00:15:40,885.32789573 The wines that had the high alcohol, the big fruit, and the big, big new oak, they always got the highest ratings. 299 00:15:40,915.32789573 --> 00:15:46,105.32789574 So in the early two thousands, there was a big backlash against globalization. 300 00:15:46,155.32789574 --> 00:15:47,385.32789574 And a monoculture. 301 00:15:47,385.32789574 --> 00:15:51,795.32789574 And so Parker was the symbol of that when it came to wine making. 302 00:15:51,795.32789574 --> 00:15:56,895.32789574 People really were rebelling against that and wanted to go back to. 303 00:15:57,310.32789574 --> 00:16:01,180.32789574 a more local, a more quote unquote natural style of wine. 304 00:16:01,180.32789574 --> 00:16:13,950.32789574 And this is where the natural wine making movement really starts and so winemakers start to employ stainless steel concrete eggs back to amphora, where we started in the very beginning. 305 00:16:14,382.0482065 --> 00:16:18,82.0482065 So that has been the more recent history Of Oak. 306 00:16:18,82.0482065 --> 00:16:33,962.0482065 And there is a movie if you're interested in seeing sort of on the ground gonzo footage of this Bondo, the movie, captures this tension in a really unique way, not the greatest movie, but it captures a time extremely well. 307 00:16:34,323.86951616 --> 00:16:35,373.86951616 They were right about this. 308 00:16:35,607.20284949 --> 00:16:40,527.2028495 Oak became the viticultural version of Acts body spray. 309 00:16:40,757.2028495 --> 00:16:43,457.2028495 No one wants that key ax body spray. 310 00:16:43,457.2028495 --> 00:16:44,297.2028495 It's too much. 311 00:16:44,327.2028495 --> 00:16:44,597.2028495 Yeah. 312 00:16:44,647.2028495 --> 00:16:44,977.2028495 No. 313 00:16:44,977.2028495 --> 00:16:50,377.2028495 You know what? I know as a, I guess I was a 14-year-old boy when I was a winemaker because man, I like that. 314 00:16:51,757.2028495 --> 00:16:52,717.2028495 Oh my God. 315 00:16:53,707.2028495 --> 00:17:09,192.2028495 Oh, well, the good news is that we've settled into a place right in the middle with Oak today where you do get some depth, you get complexity, but it's not overtaking the ultimate flavors of the wine itself. 316 00:17:09,432.2028495 --> 00:17:17,722.2028495 So we have titrated back from the excesses of the eighties and nineties, and so Oak today is used much more sparingly. 317 00:17:18,142.2028495 --> 00:17:19,672.2028495 A lot more neutral barrels. 318 00:17:19,672.2028495 --> 00:17:19,762.2028495 Mm-hmm. 319 00:17:20,2.2028495 --> 00:17:23,152.2028495 Larger format barrels like you talked about earlier. 320 00:17:23,422.2028495 --> 00:17:32,692.2028495 And so today's iteration of oak is to give seasoning, to give nuance, to give depth, but not overpower the wine itself. 321 00:17:33,82.2028495 --> 00:17:33,772.2028495 Hallelujah. 322 00:17:34,37.2028495 --> 00:17:34,277.2028495 Absolutely. 323 00:17:34,657.2028495 --> 00:17:35,197.2028495 So, all right. 324 00:17:36,7.2028495 --> 00:17:38,947.2028495 Shall I jump in the lightning round? Oh, let's do the lightning round. 325 00:17:38,947.2028495 --> 00:17:39,277.2028495 Okay. 326 00:17:39,577.2028495 --> 00:17:43,267.2028495 Number one, French oak is always better. 327 00:17:43,777.2028495 --> 00:17:44,827.2028495 False.. 328 00:17:45,517.2028495 --> 00:17:46,357.2028495 False. 329 00:17:46,803.9065121 --> 00:17:47,763.9065121 Bordeaux. 330 00:17:47,943.9065121 --> 00:17:48,693.9065121 Yes. 331 00:17:48,868.9065121 --> 00:17:49,188.9065121 Rioja. 332 00:17:49,448.9065121 --> 00:17:49,668.9065121 No. 333 00:17:50,350.7544588 --> 00:17:50,770.7544588 Barolo. 334 00:17:51,70.7544588 --> 00:17:51,290.7544588 No. 335 00:17:52,70.7544588 --> 00:17:52,290.7544588 No. 336 00:17:52,853.19841 --> 00:17:53,843.19841 Plenty of kinds of oak. 337 00:17:53,873.19841 --> 00:17:55,253.19841 French is not always better. 338 00:17:55,793.19841 --> 00:17:57,38.19841 Young is not always better either. 339 00:17:57,565.525824 --> 00:17:57,855.525824 Yeah. 340 00:17:57,860.525824 --> 00:17:58,60.525824 Yeah. 341 00:17:58,60.525824 --> 00:17:59,500.525824 And I have one for you too. 342 00:17:59,800.525824 --> 00:18:05,200.525824 Oh, that to make steely wines, you need stainless steel, Keith. 343 00:18:05,200.525824 --> 00:18:05,980.525824 That's just not true. 344 00:18:06,760.525824 --> 00:18:06,980.525824 It is not. 345 00:18:06,980.525824 --> 00:18:07,390.525824 It's not true. 346 00:18:07,600.525824 --> 00:18:08,650.525824 Think about Chablis. 347 00:18:08,650.525824 --> 00:18:15,10.525824 Chablis is defined by its use of neutral oak, and it is razor sharp. 348 00:18:15,10.525824 --> 00:18:18,400.525824 It has that wonderful high toned acidity that Psalms love. 349 00:18:18,700.525824 --> 00:18:22,720.525824 And you get that not from stainless steel, but actually from neutral oak. 350 00:18:23,260.525824 --> 00:18:25,690.525824 Here, here, here, and finally. 351 00:18:26,770.525824 --> 00:18:27,880.525824 Oak is passe. 352 00:18:28,390.525824 --> 00:18:33,430.525824 No, oak is not passe as the arbiter of all things cool in the world. 353 00:18:33,430.525824 --> 00:18:35,830.525824 As you know, I say oak is. 354 00:18:36,100.525824 --> 00:18:37,780.525824 Oak is still hip people. 355 00:18:38,770.525824 --> 00:18:40,120.525824 Oak is not just a hipster. 356 00:18:40,450.525824 --> 00:18:41,500.525824 It is good for you. 357 00:18:41,500.525824 --> 00:18:43,510.525824 It's lovely imbalance though. 358 00:18:43,720.525824 --> 00:18:44,860.525824 We need to have an imbalance. 359 00:18:45,100.525824 --> 00:18:47,440.525824 You can't just make wine and eggs people you.. 360 00:18:47,995.525824 --> 00:18:51,505.525824 I, I can't believe you have to say that, please. 361 00:18:51,805.525824 --> 00:18:52,255.525824 Oak. 362 00:18:53,170.525824 --> 00:18:53,390.525824 Oak. 363 00:18:54,235.525824 --> 00:18:54,625.525824 all right. 364 00:18:54,625.525824 --> 00:18:54,985.525824 Keith. 365 00:18:54,985.525824 --> 00:18:58,915.525824 I think this was a wonderful little tour of the world of Oak. 366 00:18:58,975.525824 --> 00:18:59,65.525824 Yes. 367 00:18:59,365.525824 --> 00:19:01,885.525824 The trends in oak and so people have an understanding. 368 00:19:01,885.525824 --> 00:19:04,465.525824 You know, things do always come back around. 369 00:19:04,465.525824 --> 00:19:13,885.525824 I have found in my classes recently, a lot of people are finding that they really like the added depth and complexity that oak will give wines. 370 00:19:14,260.525824 --> 00:19:23,900.525824 So folks who always had, you know, New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc are now finding that having a little more complexity is a nice change. 371 00:19:23,900.525824 --> 00:19:25,40.525824 So just keep that in mind. 372 00:19:25,40.525824 --> 00:19:28,580.525824 Things are always changing in wine, just like in the wider world. 373 00:19:29,90.525824 --> 00:19:29,840.525824 Absolutely. 374 00:19:29,840.525824 --> 00:19:33,80.525824 And one of the things that we find, 'cause because we're teaching. 375 00:19:33,695.525824 --> 00:19:34,445.525824 All the time. 376 00:19:34,445.525824 --> 00:19:35,105.525824 And we've done it. 377 00:19:35,315.525824 --> 00:19:36,395.525824 I've done it for 20 years. 378 00:19:36,395.525824 --> 00:19:37,475.525824 You've done it for a decade. 379 00:19:37,805.525824 --> 00:19:39,395.525824 We can see the ebbs and flows. 380 00:19:39,395.525824 --> 00:19:39,485.525824 Mm-hmm. 381 00:19:39,815.525824 --> 00:19:41,735.525824 And right now Oak is coming back. 382 00:19:41,825.525824 --> 00:19:41,975.525824 Yeah. 383 00:19:41,975.525824 --> 00:19:43,925.525824 That's the one thing people, Oak is coming back. 384 00:19:44,225.525824 --> 00:19:45,485.525824 you won't see that in the marketplace. 385 00:19:45,485.525824 --> 00:19:47,345.525824 People won't be talking about it for another couple years. 386 00:19:47,751.0918617 --> 00:19:52,551.0918617 And if you wanna be on the cutting edge of wine and understand it well, then you should. 387 00:19:52,701.0918617 --> 00:19:54,261.0918617 You should take a Somal a class. 388 00:19:54,561.0918617 --> 00:19:55,641.0918617 You should take it with me. 389 00:19:55,701.0918617 --> 00:19:58,51.0918617 Take it with Alana, at the National Wine School. 390 00:19:58,51.0918617 --> 00:19:59,191.0918617 Wine School, us. 391 00:19:59,191.0918617 --> 00:20:01,861.0918617 You can earn your som a certification online. 392 00:20:02,461.0918617 --> 00:20:03,271.0918617 Online. 393 00:20:03,811.0918617 --> 00:20:06,271.0918617 And I do not, I do not drop a single F bomb. 394 00:20:07,171.0918617 --> 00:20:09,121.0918617 Not a single one They get bleeped out. 395 00:20:09,271.0918617 --> 00:20:09,476.0918617 Yeah, they do. 396 00:20:09,531.0918617 --> 00:20:11,1.0918617 But if you want all the bleeps. 397 00:20:11,581.0918617 --> 00:20:13,291.0918617 you can come in person. 398 00:20:13,931.0918617 --> 00:20:16,841.0918617 That's the Wine School of Philadelphia where we teach full time. 399 00:20:16,901.0918617 --> 00:20:19,931.0918617 Please do join us if you're in the area for a class. 400 00:20:19,981.0918617 --> 00:20:21,721.0918617 Heath is hyper. 401 00:20:22,126.0918617 --> 00:20:25,456.0918617 He's caffeinated and he's always ready to swear. 402 00:20:25,516.0918617 --> 00:20:25,996.0918617 That's right. 403 00:20:25,996.0918617 --> 00:20:30,766.0918617 They can't close us down largely 'cause we actually bribe all the, uh, the, the local judges. 404 00:20:30,841.0918617 --> 00:20:32,531.0918617 It's very Easy to all this wine. 405 00:20:32,741.0918617 --> 00:20:33,521.0918617 Oh, it's amazing. 406 00:20:33,521.0918617 --> 00:20:33,806.0918617 It's amazing. 407 00:20:34,556.0918617 --> 00:20:36,746.0918617 So, yes, come love to see you. 408 00:20:37,106.0918617 --> 00:20:38,876.0918617 please like and subscribe. 409 00:20:38,876.0918617 --> 00:20:44,661.0918617 That does so much for our viewership, especially if you tell your friends. 410 00:20:45,756.0918617 --> 00:20:47,16.0918617 so please, I have to beg you. 411 00:20:47,166.0918617 --> 00:20:48,486.0918617 Come please like me. 412 00:20:48,486.0918617 --> 00:20:50,676.0918617 What do we have next up? Oh, that's a good question. 413 00:20:50,736.0918617 --> 00:20:54,556.0918617 I think I know, 'cause you told me what it's gonna be Climate change. 414 00:20:54,606.0918617 --> 00:20:54,736.0918617 Yes. 415 00:20:54,736.0918617 --> 00:20:55,16.0918617 Okay. 416 00:20:55,22.0918617 --> 00:20:55,111.0918617 Alright. 417 00:20:56,131.0918617 --> 00:20:56,611.0918617 Wonderful. 418 00:20:56,791.0918617 --> 00:20:57,961.0918617 Thanks everyone. 419 00:20:58,81.0918617 --> 00:20:58,231.0918617 Bye. 420 00:20:58,231.0918617 --> 00:20:58,771.0918617 Have a great night. 421 00:20:58,771.0918617 --> 00:20:58,781.0918617 Cheers.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.