March 18, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode of After Wine School, hosts Keith Wallace and Alana Zerbe dive into the intricacies of oak aging in wine. They explore the historical significance, the flavor contributions, and the various types of oak used by winemakers. The discussion is enriched by Wallace’s insights into winemaking practices and the management of oak barrels. The episode concludes with a tasting and analysis of a beautiful Fronsac, highlighting its complex flavor profile and the impact of oak aging. Listeners are invited to engage with the podcast and enjoy wine in a relaxed, enjoyable manner.
00:00 Introduction to After Wine School
00:41 Meet Your Hosts: Keith Wallace and Alana Zerbe
00:47 The Role of Oak in Winemaking
03:20 Historical Use of Oak in Winemaking
05:47 The Science Behind Oak Aging
09:52 Managing Oak Barrels in Winemaking
18:26 Different Types of Oak and Their Impact
23:06 Tasting Chateau Carl Magnus
28:22 Final Thoughts and Farewell
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to After Wine School, the podcast that demystifies wine and makes it approachable for everyone.
Join Keith Wallace and Alana Zerbe, two of the nation's leading wine experts, as they uncork everything you need to know about wine, from picking the right bottle to mastering unforgettable food and wine pairings.
This isn't about stuffy lectures or confusing jargon.
(00:26):
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So grab a glass And let's dive in.
Don't forget to subscribe to After Wine School today.
All right, everybody. 8 00:00:43,436.001 --> 00:00:47,366.001 Welcome to after school, the wine podcast.
(00:47):
.001And today we are going to talk about wood. 10 00:00:53,616.001 --> 00:00:54,766.001 Oak, actually. 11 00:00:55,766.001 --> 00:00:56,956.001 Thank you, Keith. 12 00:00:57,206.001 --> 00:01:03,866.001 And the wine we're going to be tasting is Chateau Carl Magnus, the Terra Luna bottling from Front Sac.
.001And before we get started, I'd like to introduce ourselves. 14 00:01:07,806.001 --> 00:01:08,896.001 My name is Alana Zerbe. 15 00:01:08,926.001 --> 00:01:12,236 I am the Director of Wine Education at the Wine School of Philadelphia. 16 00:01:12,626.001 --> 00:01:22,606.001 And joining me, as always, is my partner, Keith Wallace, the Director and Founder of the Wine School of Philadelphia, Let me get going here. 17 00:01:22,646.002 --> 00:01:22,946.002 All right. 18 00:01:22,956.002 --> 00:01:24,666.002 So we do have a sponsor. 19 00:01:24,866.002 --> 00:01:32,16.002 Our sponsor is the National Wine School, the premier online education center for aspiring sommeliers. 20 00:01:32,401.002 --> 00:01:50,421.001 And they have asked us to give a quick disclaimer that any of the opinions or viewpoints you hear us espouse on this podcast are truly our own and not the viewpoints or opinions of the National Wine School, the Wine School of Philadelphia, or any other business. 21 00:01:50,421.002 --> 00:01:52,780.902 about wine, whatever we feel like talking about. 22 00:01:52,880.902 --> 00:02:09,630.902 and that's, yeah, and really what that comes down to is an email saying, Keith, we love you, but man, really? Really? Yeah, well, you know, it is after school, and you know, it is, to be honest, this is, you know, this is a condensed version of. 23 00:02:09,860.902 --> 00:02:11,830.902 How I teach, you know, how we teach. 24 00:02:11,830.902 --> 00:02:14,580.902 I mean, we, you know, bring the joy, baby. 25 00:02:14,580.902 --> 00:02:21,740.902 I don't understand what, how, why people can't, you know, have the intelligent, smart, creative, like so many people in the wine trade. 26 00:02:22,20.902 --> 00:02:31,760.902 So many people in wine education are these absolutely fantastic people, but they think they have to wear a suit and tie and just drone on and have some PowerPoints and think that's it. 27 00:02:32,50.902 --> 00:02:33,550.902 No fun. 28 00:02:33,550.902 --> 00:02:34,170.902 It's booze. 29 00:02:34,180.902 --> 00:02:34,870.902 It's wine. 30 00:02:35,200.902 --> 00:02:36,80.902 It's amazing. 31 00:02:36,320.902 --> 00:02:45,180.902 And so we're talking about a Oak aging because it's something that everyone's always curious about and I love the question. 32 00:02:45,190.902 --> 00:02:50,240.902 So now you're going to have far more questions than I have answers. 33 00:02:50,240.902 --> 00:03:01,230.902 So, you know, you want to start or you want me to start? I think it would be very helpful if we just talked about for folks out there what oak does. 34 00:03:01,320.902 --> 00:03:01,920.902 Oh. 35 00:03:02,380.902 --> 00:03:07,230.901 why winemakers use it, maybe some of the benefits and some of the. 36 00:03:08,175.902 --> 00:03:18,75.902 Things that make it difficult, or possibly seen as a negative in some instances, and then we can maybe then get into the nitty gritty of American, Slovenian. 37 00:03:18,75.902 --> 00:03:24,325.901 Oh, and French, Well, let's okay, let's start with, why we use it. 38 00:03:26,985.901 --> 00:03:30,405.901 Historically, we use it because it was available. 39 00:03:30,815.901 --> 00:03:32,95.901 Literally, that's why. 40 00:03:32,125.901 --> 00:03:33,735.901 Because it was, oak. 41 00:03:34,165.901 --> 00:03:50,865.901 Forests were throughout Europe and wherever you were making wine, there were usually forests of oak and, and sometimes you were buying it for other countries, but, and then when maybe there's a blockade and you start using local oak, that's how in Bordeaux, they started using French oak. 42 00:03:51,120.901 --> 00:04:25,95.9 from the nearby forest because they used to use Baltic oak and then there was a war and they couldn't get it anymore and then so they started using local oak and so it completely changed the flavor of the wines but so we use it because it's available just like when here in United States when we started making whiskey we used Any kind of oak that was available or any kind of wood to me that whatever's nearby we used but you know, it was primarily, you know, there's way more oak in america Than other kinds of trees. 43 00:04:25,95.901 --> 00:04:40,735.901 So that's what we used and you know It just was a storage facility, you know, and like you didn't originally use it for anything other than to store it If you didn't sell your wine fast enough, really what you really wanted to do was sell it as fast as you can. 44 00:04:40,735.901 --> 00:04:42,565.901 You put it in your vessel, you ship it out. 45 00:04:42,935.901 --> 00:04:51,505.901 Well, what if it just stuck around in your warehouse for a year or two? Well, you know what? They ended up finding out that The wines just start tasting better. 46 00:04:51,535.901 --> 00:04:51,905.901 Mm hmm. 47 00:04:52,295.901 --> 00:04:54,815.901 they started getting whole new characteristics. 48 00:04:55,215.901 --> 00:05:04,675.901 And, well, either they went bad and it was awful, or some of those barrels just really end up being like this, Jesus, what the hell happened? Like, this is insane. 49 00:05:04,725.901 --> 00:05:09,105.9 this wine was just mediocre, and now it's like, tastes amazing. 50 00:05:09,505.9 --> 00:05:12,205.901 And because there are certain flavors, that we just love. 51 00:05:12,215.901 --> 00:05:12,235.901 Yeah. 52 00:05:12,236.001 --> 00:05:14,895.901 Like, there's certain flavors of spices that we love. 53 00:05:14,905.901 --> 00:05:15,505.901 Mm hmm. 54 00:05:15,605.901 --> 00:05:46,885.9 And like things like cinnamon and nutmeg and allspice, you know, basically your pumpkin spices, right? You know that the things that you make your pumpkin pie with an apple pie vanilla all these things and what people don't realize is These components that are in these seeds that are nutmeg and vanilla These are all coming from woodsy plants like either trees or most of our bushes or like cinnamon is from a bark, so, but they're all coming from woodsy plants. 55 00:05:47,95.9 --> 00:06:15,510.8995 And these woodsy plants, all of them have the same components in them, So like, yeah, cinnamon's not surprisingly has more Cinnamanic acid in its bark and so it has that cinnamon flavor Certain kinds of you know, like pods like like surprisingly vanilla has a component that's called vanillin Just more of it than most other kinds of pods woodsy plants, but they all have some of it to some degree and oak has the same thing. 56 00:06:15,510.8995 --> 00:06:27,190.8995 It has a lot of them and they're just happening in the right percentage that if you, if you leave something in an oak barrel for a couple months, you're not going to get it. 57 00:06:27,190.8995 --> 00:06:31,270.8985 But if you leave it in for a year, you get a lot of it, especially if that's a new barrel. 58 00:06:31,430.8985 --> 00:06:40,100.8995 And now here's the reason why we used it originally is because it's waterproof, right? It, you know, you could fill it with anything, you know, you could put anything in it, dill pickles. 59 00:06:40,150.8995 --> 00:06:41,80.8985 You could also roll it. 60 00:06:41,605.8995 --> 00:06:42,105.8995 Yes. 61 00:06:42,115.8995 --> 00:06:42,725.8995 Stack it. 62 00:06:42,755.8995 --> 00:06:43,995.8995 Yes, exactly. 63 00:06:43,995.8995 --> 00:06:45,905.8995 They're great for warehousing and shipping. 64 00:06:45,915.8995 --> 00:06:48,285.8995 That's why they were, that's why we used them. 65 00:06:49,145.8995 --> 00:06:50,545.8995 That's all it was. 66 00:06:50,575.8995 --> 00:06:55,385.8985 You know, it was a way to store stuff and ship it so that it would be efficient. 67 00:06:56,5.8985 --> 00:07:03,55.7995 But it just ended up having this secondary benefit when we used oak than any other kind of tree. 68 00:07:03,55.7995 --> 00:07:09,465.7995 There are trees that make it taste weird, You know, one does not really want to use, cherry wood to make barrels. 69 00:07:09,475.7995 --> 00:07:12,545.7995 It's, well, hard to do, but also it's just a really weird flavor. 70 00:07:12,545.7995 --> 00:07:14,835.7995 Like a slightly soapy, you know, flavor. 71 00:07:14,835.7995 --> 00:07:15,235.7995 It's weird. 72 00:07:17,175.7985 --> 00:07:42,983.298 Not that I ever tried that, I mean, I did, I did, that was a very failed experiment, but, you know, yeah, so this is why, and we also have to, to make barrels, it's just a part of how you make it is you have to heat, right, because, you know, it's oak, it's hard to bend, you can't bend it, so you have to bend it into place to make a barrel, and so you need a combination. 73 00:07:42,983.298 --> 00:07:53,73.298 You need to use steel or some sort of metal hoops to keep it in place, but to get it into place in the first place, you have to use flame. 74 00:07:53,73.298 --> 00:08:05,238.298 You have to heat it up to bend it, right? Because you heat it up, the lignin actually softens, which is part of, you know, what makes the structure of oak and any Bend it into place, but so you have it inside is charred now. 75 00:08:05,318.298 --> 00:08:27,48.297 So you end up having not just all these spice flavors now You have a char flavor And so this is kind of like you're you know You're like baking a cake now, right? Because now you have char just like Coffee and chocolate does and creme brulee has and you have vanilla and cinnamon and nutmeg flavors They're kind of pull out and many others. 76 00:08:27,578.297 --> 00:08:35,638.297 So you end up having these other flavors to play with And oak and that's why now we really like culturally we love that. 77 00:08:35,698.297 --> 00:08:44,438.297 I mean, who doesn't like apple pie or pumpkin pie or creme brulee or vanilla, like, or pumpkin spice? I don't like apple pie. 78 00:08:44,498.296 --> 00:08:45,358.296 I know you don't. 79 00:08:45,428.297 --> 00:08:46,88.296 I know you don't. 80 00:08:46,98.297 --> 00:08:49,498.297 That's why I said something because I am not a nice person. 81 00:08:50,498.297 --> 00:08:52,888.297 It is my absolute favorite pie. 82 00:08:53,558.297 --> 00:08:55,278.297 But of course I had it growing up. 83 00:08:55,593.297 --> 00:08:59,293.297 With, cheddar cheese on top, which probably makes you like it even less. 84 00:08:59,513.297 --> 00:08:59,803.297 Correct. 85 00:09:02,333.297 --> 00:09:02,953.297 Oh, God. 86 00:09:02,983.297 --> 00:09:03,343.297 All right. 87 00:09:03,343.397 --> 00:09:05,170.03033333 you have ice cream No, just cheddar cheese. 88 00:09:05,200.02933333 --> 00:09:05,330.02933333 Okay. 89 00:09:05,400.02933333 --> 00:09:06,590.03033333 If you have it one or the other. 90 00:09:06,620.03033333 --> 00:09:08,120.03033333 Like, you can do a scoop of vanilla. 91 00:09:08,160.03033333 --> 00:09:08,530.03033333 Okay. 92 00:09:08,590.02933333 --> 00:09:09,330.02983333 Or cheddar cheese. 93 00:09:09,330.02983333 --> 00:09:09,600.02933333 Okay. 94 00:09:09,640.03033333 --> 00:09:12,350.03133333 If you're a grown up, you know, like when I was a kid, that's what my grandfather did. 95 00:09:12,350.03133333 --> 00:09:13,889.93133333 I'm like, I want to be like my granddad. 96 00:09:14,180.03133333 --> 00:09:16,160.03133333 Yeah, right on top, but yeah. 97 00:09:16,160.03133333 --> 00:09:16,910.03133333 Okay, all right. 98 00:09:17,0.03133333 --> 00:09:17,320.03133333 oak. 99 00:09:17,510.03133333 --> 00:09:18,540.03133333 But yeah, so back to oak. 100 00:09:18,570.03133333 --> 00:09:21,720.03133333 So that's the basics of why we use it. 101 00:09:22,310.03133333 --> 00:09:24,450.03133333 It was available accidentally. 102 00:09:24,460.03133333 --> 00:09:30,10.03133333 We actually discovered that we added more flavor if you left it in a new barrel for about a year. 103 00:09:30,190.03133333 --> 00:09:32,810.03133333 And, yeah, that's why we use them. 104 00:09:32,840.03133333 --> 00:09:38,380.03133333 and to this day, culturally, we love these flavors and it's not just because it's in. 105 00:09:38,735.03133333 --> 00:09:44,875.03133333 You know, wine, it's also, and whiskey, it's why we love bourbon, because of all those oak flavors. 106 00:09:44,915.03133333 --> 00:09:52,615.02933333 we just love the spices, we put in everything, and every culture does, whether it's sweet or savory, like, we love spices. 107 00:09:52,655.03033333 --> 00:10:10,430.03033333 So can you talk about, from a winemaker perspective, how you keep tabs on your barrels and monitor the toast levels and how much is new and aging and when you need to swap them out and just a little bit of the inside scoop on the production end. 108 00:10:10,570.02933333 --> 00:10:13,10.03033333 So in another podcast, we talked about pricing. 109 00:10:13,440.03033333 --> 00:10:15,480.03033333 we can only use the level of oak. 110 00:10:15,775.03033333 --> 00:10:20,115.03033333 Where it's financially feasible, because the oak barrels are expensive. 111 00:10:20,445.03033333 --> 00:10:21,755.03033333 they're the largest cost. 112 00:10:22,15.03033333 --> 00:10:26,885.02983333 the barrels cost more than the winemaker, usually the rent or the cost of, your whole production facility. 113 00:10:26,915.02983333 --> 00:10:33,5.02983333 That single product, that's the biggest capital expense you're going to have in a winery, because you gotta change them out. 114 00:10:33,5.02983333 --> 00:10:35,585.02983333 if you wanna have maximum big, flavors. 115 00:10:35,965.02983333 --> 00:10:44,555.02983333 You are going to have to swap them out at least 50 percent of them every year if you're going for a top tier wine with a lot of massive oak flavor. 116 00:10:45,25.02983333 --> 00:10:54,175.02983333 That does require you to have, you know, using a grape like Cabernet or Syrah that is actually full enough body and have enough tendons to match that oak flavor. 117 00:10:54,295.02983333 --> 00:10:57,540.02983333 Now, Lower down if you like. 118 00:10:57,540.02983333 --> 00:10:59,850.02983333 You're, you know, it's a mid-tier or inexpensive one. 119 00:10:59,850.02983333 --> 00:11:02,100.02983333 You're using much less new, new oak, much less. 120 00:11:02,100.02983333 --> 00:11:06,290.02983333 And oftentimes you're using most of the new oak for your luxury levels. 121 00:11:06,290.02983333 --> 00:11:20,220.02983333 And then your, we call 'em seasons your second season, or third season, or fourth season in your mid-tier, and then mostly in your, barrels, which like their fifth season or sixth season in your less, you know, your, your, your lowest level. 122 00:11:20,500.02983333 --> 00:11:24,360.02983333 So there's almost no flavors and they're just basically vessels to carry it in. 123 00:11:25,720.02983333 --> 00:11:27,820.02983333 And so that's what we typically do. 124 00:11:27,880.02983333 --> 00:11:32,760.02883333 We also will, use oak elements within it. 125 00:11:32,760.02883333 --> 00:11:34,280.02883333 like we have, little. 126 00:11:34,430.02883333 --> 00:11:42,140.02883333 Oak balls, they toasted they're specifically designed for aging wines and just adding these in, to give us those oak flavors. 127 00:11:42,210.02883333 --> 00:11:47,70.02883333 And so we use that, that's still expensive, but it's so much less expensive. 128 00:11:47,70.02983333 --> 00:11:50,799.92983333 So if you want those oak flavors that people expect, then we. 129 00:11:51,20.02983333 --> 00:11:51,940.02983333 We'll do that too. 130 00:11:52,880.02983333 --> 00:11:55,340.02983333 But so the hard thing is how you track it. 131 00:11:55,380.02983333 --> 00:12:51,255.02883334 Like it is, if you saw my sheets as a winemaker, it's just pure spreadsheets of where they are, where in the winery, Each barrel is identified, what it is, how old it is, what cooper, which is the most important thing, what cooperage, what toast level, where it is, what's, of course, what's in it, but I'll also have it along with, records, most of what I always did was actually with chalk on the barrel itself, identifying what it is, maybe a little, now these days I'll put a, A little, scan, so I can scan it, so I can actually identify that specific barrel, to what it is, where it is, so I can keep it as a electronic database, so I can just pull it up, but, you know, and so I can just tell people where, or they can just look it up, and like, oh, what's in here, they can use a scanner, scan it, what's in there, or just Look on, you know, on our database. 132 00:12:51,255.02883334 --> 00:12:56,85.02883334 Okay, I need this, this, and they can find out where in the, in the, okay. 133 00:12:56,205.02883334 --> 00:13:14,830.02883334 So it takes organization and huge Absolutely, and before, like, I mean, I've been I was making wine in the early aughts, but we weren't using relational databases nearly as much as we do now and definitely don't have any, didn't have any online, software. 134 00:13:14,940.02883334 --> 00:13:22,830.02883334 So what we did was, yeah, it was largely just a book or a spreadsheet, you know, just like, you know, just a good old Excel spreadsheet. 135 00:13:23,210.02883334 --> 00:13:38,730.02783334 Are there, cooperages out there that have waitlists, or, are there those, so bougie that the average winery couldn't get a hold of their barrels? Well, here's the thing. 136 00:13:39,315.02883334 --> 00:14:06,415.03033334 Not really, however, your cooperage, which is they who make your barrels, you do have to kiss their ass, especially the French ones, like, you know, them and their, you know, or their distributor, their local distributor, because there's a difference between being able to get them and then actually getting access to really good barrels, Having an order where you're really defined to exactly what you want without pissing them off. 137 00:14:06,995.03033334 --> 00:14:09,875.02933334 Just the more you want, the more it costs. 138 00:14:10,395.03033334 --> 00:14:14,395.02883334 but you can, and there may be Coopers out there that I don't know about. 139 00:14:14,605.02983334 --> 00:14:17,895.02983334 Or I just don't have never worked with that are so exclusive. 140 00:14:17,915.02983334 --> 00:14:19,765.02983334 But you know, I'm not that kind of winemaker. 141 00:14:19,765.02983334 --> 00:14:22,525.02983334 I'm the kind of winemaker who, more consulting where I'm going to come in. 142 00:14:22,535.02883334 --> 00:14:24,225.02983334 I'm like, okay, we're gonna use this and this and this. 143 00:14:24,535.02883334 --> 00:14:25,565.02983334 And then we're going to go out. 144 00:14:25,605.02983334 --> 00:14:29,765.02983334 And it's usually based on what's available. 145 00:14:29,825.02883334 --> 00:14:35,525.02983334 You know, what distributor, what do you have locally? And if you're in California, it's really easy to get anything. 146 00:14:36,45.02983334 --> 00:14:45,405.02983334 East coast, really hard to get what you want, you know? And so you have to be really nice to your distributor I had one client who actually, ended up becoming the distributor for barrels so that they could have access. 147 00:14:46,95.02983334 --> 00:15:04,675.03183334 Yeah, that's another smart thing, especially on the East Coast, because they also, a lot of these, cooperages really don't have much, you know, it's not, they don't know who to go to on the East Coast or even, obscure place on the West Coast where in, you know, in Columbia Valley, like it's harder to get, you know, good distribution. 148 00:15:04,685.03183334 --> 00:15:05,195.03183334 So. 149 00:15:05,485.03183334 --> 00:15:05,805.03183334 Yeah. 150 00:15:05,835.03183334 --> 00:15:06,465.03183334 So there are. 151 00:15:06,485.03183334 --> 00:15:06,835.03183334 Yeah. 152 00:15:07,165.03183334 --> 00:15:11,415.03183334 So yeah, it's, it's kind of a mess, but it also is, those guys are different. 153 00:15:11,425.03183334 --> 00:15:12,685.03183334 They're a whole different breed. 154 00:15:12,685.03183334 --> 00:15:19,615.03183334 These are, if you're a Cooper, you are part madman, part genius. 155 00:15:19,905.03183334 --> 00:15:21,555.03183334 And I'm scared to shit of you. 156 00:15:22,75.03083334 --> 00:15:22,695.03083334 Oh God. 157 00:15:22,885.03283334 --> 00:15:27,625.03183334 They are so the smartest, hardest working, meanest, most delightful. 158 00:15:27,905.03183334 --> 00:15:29,235.03183334 Never go drinking with one. 159 00:15:29,550.03183333 --> 00:15:30,780.03183333 I learned that the hard way. 160 00:15:31,100.03183333 --> 00:15:33,340.03183333 They, I, it's hard to drink me under the table. 161 00:15:33,360.03183334 --> 00:15:36,730.03183334 I got drunk, the only time, two people who drunk me on the table. 162 00:15:37,30.03183333 --> 00:15:39,450.03183333 One was a Portuguese fisherman and the other was a Cooper. 163 00:15:39,920.03083333 --> 00:15:47,865.03183333 And those are the two people who just, where I realized that I was, I, yeah, that I, I, I was just, I was a mere child. 164 00:15:48,455.03183333 --> 00:15:48,975.03183333 Okay. 165 00:15:49,15.03183333 --> 00:15:50,335.03183333 So this, it's serious business. 166 00:15:50,355.03183333 --> 00:15:51,225.03233333 They take it very seriously. 167 00:15:51,235.03233333 --> 00:15:52,215.03233333 Oh my God. 168 00:16:24,495.03233333 --> 00:16:27,555.03233333 like your family does it and you're born into it? And some people do. 169 00:16:27,705.03233333 --> 00:16:33,5.02933333 Like, okay, this doesn't happen anymore, but this tradition stopped, only recently. 170 00:16:33,75.02933333 --> 00:16:35,825.02933333 But they would, if you were in, Cooper, who was like an. 171 00:16:36,450.02933333 --> 00:16:48,160.0293333 Like, you were trained to be a cooper, and when you were actually officially going to be the cooper or a cooper, they would, put you in a barrel and roll you down the hill. 172 00:16:49,510.0293333 --> 00:16:53,730.0283333 What? Yeah, and you, you know, but you were messed up by the end. 173 00:16:53,740.0283333 --> 00:16:58,460.0283333 Like, yeah, like people would dislocate fingers, you know, get, you know, broken things, yeah. 174 00:16:58,690.0283333 --> 00:16:59,740.0283333 and then drink heavily. 175 00:17:00,630.0283333 --> 00:17:01,250.0283333 Yes. 176 00:17:01,810.0283333 --> 00:17:04,60.0273333 Okay, these are people who work with their hands. 177 00:17:04,60.0283333 --> 00:17:04,640.0283333 Yes. 178 00:17:05,150.0283333 --> 00:17:06,530.0283333 So your initiation. 179 00:17:06,530.0283333 --> 00:17:07,160.0283333 Yes. 180 00:17:07,840.0283333 --> 00:17:09,460.0283333 Is something that might break your hands. 181 00:17:09,600.0283333 --> 00:17:10,0.0283333 Oh, yes. 182 00:17:10,100.0283333 --> 00:17:20,100.0283333 Oh, they were oh, they're just they are You know, like they are just the craziest human beings, but also just smartest like they You know, like they're vikings. 183 00:17:20,150.0283333 --> 00:17:20,590.0283333 They scare me. 184 00:17:20,930.0283333 --> 00:17:21,930.0283333 That's what I was thinking. 185 00:17:21,940.0283333 --> 00:17:43,90.0283333 No, they're yeah, but you need them Like you absolutely need them They it is a darling heart and it was one of those That if I had known that you could be this crazy and this hard working and this smart and this you know I I may have been you know, like I should oh could I've been a cooper? I would have loved to have been a cooper like you you because everyone like you can just be mean to everybody And everyone's scared of you. 186 00:17:43,90.0283333 --> 00:17:43,670.0283333 You're through that. 187 00:17:43,810.0283333 --> 00:17:47,600.0283333 I'm, sorry keith You can be me and everyone's scared of you. 188 00:17:48,420.0283333 --> 00:17:55,530.0293333 Are you sure that you haven't figured that out? All right, that's fair enough. 189 00:17:55,760.0293333 --> 00:17:57,820.0283333 I have, I have, I, I found my own place. 190 00:17:58,370.0293333 --> 00:17:59,770.0293333 I'm in a happy place in my life. 191 00:17:59,830.0283333 --> 00:18:00,460.0293333 That's true. 192 00:18:01,10.0293333 --> 00:18:01,650.0283333 That's true. 193 00:18:02,340.0293333 --> 00:18:07,95.0293333 Because basically what I was thinking is like, oh, it's, you know, cause Well, we come from the, they're like the chef of the wide world. 194 00:18:07,275.0293333 --> 00:18:12,525.0293333 Like they are, there's the material spirits that make everything happen without them. 195 00:18:12,565.0293333 --> 00:18:14,5.0293333 You, you can't do anything. 196 00:18:14,15.0293333 --> 00:18:14,845.0283333 So yeah. 197 00:18:14,845.0293333 --> 00:18:18,25.0293333 And because I was a chef, in my very early days. 198 00:18:18,275.0293333 --> 00:18:18,515.0293333 Yeah. 199 00:18:18,515.0293333 --> 00:18:18,875.0283333 I guess. 200 00:18:18,885.0293333 --> 00:18:21,775.0283333 So I guess, yeah, I guess that's probably why, why I've. 201 00:18:21,935.0293333 --> 00:18:22,325.0293333 Yeah. 202 00:18:22,455.0293333 --> 00:18:22,835.0293333 Okay. 203 00:18:22,875.0293333 --> 00:18:23,305.0293333 You're right. 204 00:18:23,485.0293333 --> 00:18:23,795.0293333 All right. 205 00:18:23,855.0293333 --> 00:18:24,625.0293333 I've been called out. 206 00:18:25,65.0293333 --> 00:18:26,165.0293333 No, this is fascinating. 207 00:18:26,215.0293333 --> 00:18:31,85.0293333 So for the folks out there, could you just talk a little bit about different types of oak and. 208 00:18:31,225.0293333 --> 00:18:32,35.0293333 Of course. 209 00:18:32,105.0293333 --> 00:18:33,35.0293333 So, okay. 210 00:18:34,295.0283333 --> 00:18:37,355.0293333 In wine, it's always going to be French oak. 211 00:18:37,845.0293333 --> 00:18:44,875.0293333 Now we can go into what forests, like the LA forest, that, but that it's more about the cooperage. 212 00:18:45,305.0293333 --> 00:18:52,635.0293333 But, usually, what you're talking about is, the most important thing in French Oak is what the toast level is. 213 00:18:52,725.0293333 --> 00:19:01,870.0293333 So, most wineries today, you're using medium to medium plus toast meaning that it's not a light toast inside It's not a heavy toast. 214 00:19:01,880.0293333 --> 00:19:08,880.0293333 So if you looked inside the barrel, it would look like it was gently toast to toast It would look like toast. 215 00:19:08,950.0283333 --> 00:19:09,860.0293333 Okay inside. 216 00:19:09,860.0293333 --> 00:19:21,375.0293333 It'd be like a little toast and not charred not burnt like Whiskey barrels are typically what's called an alligator char, and that's like, they look, they've been so burnt they look like alligator skin. 217 00:19:21,785.0293333 --> 00:19:22,535.0293333 Oh. 218 00:19:22,545.0293333 --> 00:19:23,25.0293333 Yeah. 219 00:19:23,35.0293333 --> 00:19:23,515.0293333 Okay. 220 00:19:23,545.0293333 --> 00:19:28,805.0283333 And then lightly toasted, you know, they look almost green, you know, they're barely toasted at all. 221 00:19:29,175.0293333 --> 00:19:37,25.0293333 So, like, you know, but what you usually are getting, as a rule of thumb, medium, medium plus toast in, you know, French oak. 222 00:19:37,335.0293333 --> 00:19:37,895.0293333 That's it. 223 00:19:38,485.0293333 --> 00:19:39,5.0293333 Certain wines. 224 00:19:40,155.0293333 --> 00:19:45,465.0293333 We'll be in American oak, or Eastern European oak. 225 00:19:46,185.0293333 --> 00:20:06,335.0288333 American oak, usually, like, maybe these days, there used to be much more in America, you'd see more American oak, but these days, typically, you're gonna see in some, like, Zinfandels, and some petite Syrahs are gonna be aged in American oak, and just big, happy wines do really well in American oak and you see some Australian oak. 226 00:20:06,505.0288333 --> 00:20:08,25.0288333 wineries using American oak. 227 00:20:08,395.0288333 --> 00:20:21,535.0283333 It's a really great effect, which everyone, you know, if you ever take, our Somalia programming, I always, they will show like, an Australian Cabernet that's been aged in French oak and pretty much the same wine that's been aged in American oak. 228 00:20:21,535.0283333 --> 00:20:23,775.0288333 So you can see the big difference between the two. 229 00:20:23,775.1288333 --> 00:20:26,575.0288333 That's, I think it's, it's critical to understand those flavor profiles. 230 00:20:26,575.0288333 --> 00:20:29,245.0288333 Barassa, right? Mostly. 231 00:20:29,245.0288333 --> 00:20:30,45.0288333 Yeah, exactly. 232 00:20:30,85.0288333 --> 00:20:33,920.0288333 These days, mostly it's because They're traditionally, they used American oak. 233 00:20:34,590.0288333 --> 00:20:42,270.0288333 And then you see some actually also in, for historic reasons, you see them in? Coro. 234 00:20:42,520.0278333 --> 00:20:42,630.0278333 Yes. 235 00:20:43,260.0288333 --> 00:20:43,380.0288333 Rioja. 236 00:20:43,820.0288333 --> 00:20:44,0.0288333 Rioja. 237 00:20:44,20.0278333 --> 00:20:50,510.0278333 You see a lot in Rioja, you see a lot in Spain, but using American oak, which for very different reasons, they're much older oak. 238 00:20:50,520.0278333 --> 00:20:52,630.0288333 Like, so that's, you know, not new American oak. 239 00:20:52,630.0288333 --> 00:21:04,60.0288333 So, and then you see in the middle ground, in the middle between those two, you'll see, Other European oaks and specifically from, one specific forest. 240 00:21:04,500.0288333 --> 00:21:08,750.0288333 And right now I'm actually blanking on the name of the forest. 241 00:21:09,560.0288333 --> 00:21:12,190.0283333 That we usually will use, Oh my God, I forgot. 242 00:21:13,10.0273333 --> 00:21:15,360.0263333 It's French American and then. 243 00:21:16,95.0273333 --> 00:21:17,515.0273333 Oh, well, Eastern European oak. 244 00:21:17,515.1273333 --> 00:21:17,550.0273333 Slovenian. 245 00:21:17,550.0273333 --> 00:21:19,475.0273333 Slovenian, Slovenian. 246 00:21:19,475.0273333 --> 00:21:20,125.0273333 Thank you. 247 00:21:20,165.0273333 --> 00:21:20,485.0273333 Thank you. 248 00:21:20,485.0273333 --> 00:21:21,515.0273333 I knew you knew it. 249 00:21:21,975.0273333 --> 00:21:23,595.0273333 you were thinking of a forest for some reason. 250 00:21:23,655.0263333 --> 00:21:25,495.0263333 Slovenia, it's not about the country. 251 00:21:25,495.0263333 --> 00:21:26,535.0253333 It's actually the forest. 252 00:21:26,535.1253333 --> 00:21:29,925.0253333 Slovenian oak, Slovenian oak. 253 00:21:31,375.0263333 --> 00:21:33,835.0263333 Now, all the oaks you're talking about, they're all white oak. 254 00:21:33,885.0263333 --> 00:21:37,415.0263333 They're just slightly different versions of it, of varieties of oak. 255 00:21:37,425.0263333 --> 00:21:41,5.0253333 Just like, you know, Cabernet and Merlot are different varieties of wine. 256 00:21:41,135.0263333 --> 00:21:45,515.0263333 Here we have slightly different varieties of white oak. 257 00:21:45,755.0263333 --> 00:21:46,565.0263333 So it has to be white oak. 258 00:21:47,495.0253333 --> 00:22:01,685.0253333 They have just slightly different porous the differences, the slight different, compounds, like how much more vanilla versus cinematic acid, in the, but also just how tighter grains, tighter grains and like just large, how large the pores are. 259 00:22:01,955.0253333 --> 00:22:04,235.0253333 And these are microscopic differences. 260 00:22:04,595.0253333 --> 00:22:09,365.0253333 So you end up having the biggest, more simple flavors, like the big P are the American Oak. 261 00:22:10,520.0253333 --> 00:22:22,70.0248333 The most delicate, complex flavors, like the, the tightest are going to be the, your French oak and the middle, somewhere in the middle is that Eastern European, that Slavonian oak, and you know, which is great as it fills in. 262 00:22:22,120.0248333 --> 00:22:33,110.0248333 so as a winemaker, I will use mostly French oak, but if I want a little bit more, fun in the oak, I will bring in some of those Eastern European oak barrels and that just gives it a more like, if I want to. 263 00:22:33,285.0248333 --> 00:22:37,305.0248333 Push up some of those more aromatics or more, you know, more vanilla or something. 264 00:22:37,935.0248333 --> 00:22:41,975.0248333 And if I have like a wine that just needs to be dumb. 265 00:22:42,595.0248333 --> 00:22:45,185.0253333 like a Zin or maybe it's a Cabernet. 266 00:22:45,605.0253333 --> 00:22:51,725.0253333 And, it's not particularly good, and I just need to make it, big, fun, and happy, high alcohol, then I'll throw that into American Oak. 267 00:22:51,785.0253333 --> 00:22:52,845.0253333 Mm, okay. 268 00:22:52,855.0243333 --> 00:22:54,655.0243333 So, American Oak, big, dumb, happy. 269 00:22:54,695.0253333 --> 00:22:54,875.0253333 Mm hmm. 270 00:22:54,885.0253333 --> 00:22:56,445.0253333 It's like, you know, everyone will like it. 271 00:22:56,445.0253333 --> 00:22:56,845.0253333 Labrador. 272 00:22:57,155.0253333 --> 00:22:59,355.0253333 Yeah, it's the labradoodle of wine. 273 00:22:59,355.1253333 --> 00:23:00,15.0253333 Yeah. 274 00:23:00,15.0253333 --> 00:23:00,795.0253333 Not labradoodle. 275 00:23:01,285.0253333 --> 00:23:01,665.0253333 you're right. 276 00:23:02,305.0253333 --> 00:23:04,285.0253333 Well, all of this talk about oak. 277 00:23:04,355.0253333 --> 00:23:04,725.0253333 Yeah. 278 00:23:04,755.0253333 --> 00:23:06,835.0253333 I, it makes me a little bit thirsty. 279 00:23:06,885.0253333 --> 00:23:09,465.0243333 Oh, what are we drinking? You want to show me the label? There it is. 280 00:23:10,105.0243333 --> 00:23:10,895.0253333 Yeah, there it is. 281 00:23:10,925.0253333 --> 00:23:12,955.0243333 This is the Chateau Carl Magnus. 282 00:23:12,970.1253333 --> 00:23:13,440.0253333 Yes. 283 00:23:13,740.0253333 --> 00:23:14,720.0253333 Terraluna. 284 00:23:14,780.0253333 --> 00:23:16,120.0253333 Absolutely. 285 00:23:16,480.0253333 --> 00:23:17,190.0253333 Yes. 286 00:23:17,280.0253333 --> 00:23:17,920.0253333 Terraluna. 287 00:23:17,940.0253333 --> 00:23:21,300.0253333 What does that mean? That's awesome. 288 00:23:21,880.0243333 --> 00:23:24,920.0243333 And, here we are. 289 00:23:25,620.0243333 --> 00:23:25,820.0243333 Thank you. 290 00:23:25,820.0253333 --> 00:23:27,810.0253333 Fronsek, Bordeaux. 291 00:23:28,410.0253333 --> 00:23:29,0.0253333 All right. 292 00:23:29,810.0253333 --> 00:23:30,280.0253333 Okay. 293 00:23:31,760.0243333 --> 00:23:33,250.0243333 My all, one of my. 294 00:23:33,995.0253333 --> 00:23:38,355.0253333 Fronsac is my go to place for delicious obscure Bordeaux. 295 00:23:40,675.0253333 --> 00:23:41,55.0253333 Okay. 296 00:23:42,145.0253333 --> 00:23:45,715.0253333 Now, before we started, we did have a little sip of this. 297 00:23:45,715.0253333 --> 00:23:45,975.0253333 Yeah. 298 00:23:46,95.0253333 --> 00:23:49,830.0243333 And you did mention, wet earth. 299 00:23:50,35.0243333 --> 00:23:50,885.0243333 Baked earth. 300 00:23:50,935.0243333 --> 00:23:51,275.0243333 Warm. 301 00:23:51,275.0243333 --> 00:23:56,185.0243333 And I don't use that description very much at all, but that's what I Yeah. 302 00:23:56,785.0243333 --> 00:24:00,575.0243333 So I, that smell then with the underlying of oak. 303 00:24:00,575.0243333 --> 00:24:10,810.0243333 So you have this almost It would be offensive if it wasn't ringed with with cigar box and spices But this is like regal. 304 00:24:10,870.0243333 --> 00:24:15,900.0243333 I think of like when I think of royalty, I think of Pomp and circumstance. 305 00:24:15,940.0233333 --> 00:24:20,195.0243333 They're probably a little smelly you know thinking like 18th century. 306 00:24:20,595.0243333 --> 00:24:23,645.0243333 Just, you know, not bathed particularly, but very impressive. 307 00:24:24,635.0243333 --> 00:24:25,855.0243333 I think of none of that. 308 00:24:25,855.1243333 --> 00:24:32,925.0233333 You know, I mean, come on, you just, you know, that they were smelling. 309 00:24:33,155.0243333 --> 00:24:43,335.0238333 They just, you know, and but I, that's why I, this is a very raw, this just is dignified, beautiful. 310 00:24:43,650.0238333 --> 00:24:49,510.0238333 Almost offensive, but not like it just hits me in the right place and all right, sip coming up. 311 00:24:49,570.0238333 --> 00:24:52,160.0238333 All right after that note, Okay. 312 00:24:52,200.0228333 --> 00:24:55,980.0228333 Now, you know, we started chatting just a while ago. 313 00:24:55,980.0228333 --> 00:25:01,480.0228333 I mean, it's been about half an hour since we tried this first and it is really opened up. 314 00:25:01,480.0228333 --> 00:25:04,320.0228333 I decanted this an hour before then we tried and that was an hour now. 315 00:25:04,320.0228333 --> 00:25:06,460.0228333 So it's an hour and a half in a glass. 316 00:25:07,860.0228333 --> 00:25:08,610.0228333 Wow. 317 00:25:09,250.0228333 --> 00:25:21,650.0218333 So at first, when we first tried this, I was deeply impressed with the structure, right? The evolution on the palette when you're going from the attack to the finish. 318 00:25:22,200.0228333 --> 00:25:23,630.0228333 It did the things that I love. 319 00:25:24,760.0228333 --> 00:25:29,360.0238333 It did that thing where it starts really intense and then turns beautiful. 320 00:25:29,360.0238333 --> 00:25:38,930.0238333 And then it starts becoming more intellectual and like more complex than finishing off with like real beautiful fleshiness. 321 00:25:39,630.0238333 --> 00:25:40,140.0238333 Now that. 322 00:25:40,675.0238333 --> 00:25:48,285.0238333 It's, you see, in Glass it's become more fleshy, richer, more decadent as it goes on, more Yes. 323 00:25:48,755.0238333 --> 00:25:51,505.0238333 Yeah, it's becoming that Merlot ness of it. 324 00:25:51,995.0238333 --> 00:25:56,305.0238333 But, yeah, it is, no, it is, it's the two sides. 325 00:25:56,305.0238333 --> 00:26:01,415.0238333 And this is why just being able to have a, opening a bottle and never just drinking it right away. 326 00:26:01,415.0238333 --> 00:26:03,55.0238333 But let it, let it sit. 327 00:26:03,375.0238333 --> 00:26:04,695.0228333 Have it over time. 328 00:26:05,405.0228333 --> 00:26:09,315.0238333 Like, it's a great way, right? Just, it's a great way to spend an evening. 329 00:26:09,445.0238333 --> 00:26:11,495.0238333 Or afternoon. 330 00:26:11,945.0238333 --> 00:26:14,435.0238333 Drinking and enjoying a wine. 331 00:26:14,835.0238333 --> 00:26:15,365.0238333 Bordeaux. 332 00:26:15,800.0238333 --> 00:26:18,120.0238333 And Front Sack specifically is a very intellectual wine. 333 00:26:18,120.0238333 --> 00:26:26,0.0228333 It's, it's that, so for me, when I have like an hermitage, right? That's pure, just decadence. 334 00:26:26,0.0228333 --> 00:26:32,830.0238333 It's intense, smelly, just it hits all like the emotional centers of my brain. 335 00:26:33,440.0238333 --> 00:26:34,880.0233333 Burgundy is the very opposite. 336 00:26:34,880.0233333 --> 00:26:38,951.4948333 It's just like, it's capturing my, you know, like I'm thinking deeply about it. 337 00:26:38,951.4948333 --> 00:26:40,197.1808333 Like I'm reading, Dostoevsky. 338 00:26:41,662.1808333 --> 00:26:49,562.1808333 But then this is in the middle, right? This, this is where it's hitting both the decadence and then the intellectual and it's going back and forth. 339 00:26:49,572.1808333 --> 00:26:50,542.1808333 That's for, that's mine. 340 00:26:52,517.1808333 --> 00:26:55,257.1808333 When I want great Bordeaux, and that's how I judge it. 341 00:26:55,577.1808333 --> 00:26:59,837.1808333 Varietal fingerprint, regional topicity, but then this. 342 00:27:00,317.1808333 --> 00:27:02,767.1798333 I need this part of it to make me happy. 343 00:27:03,117.1808333 --> 00:27:07,547.1798333 And this is doing that, and it's fine because this part, this isn't, I'm afraid, particularly expensive bottle. 344 00:27:07,547.1808333 --> 00:27:08,207.1808333 I know. 345 00:27:08,517.1808333 --> 00:27:09,17.1803333 I know. 346 00:27:09,97.1813333 --> 00:27:13,697.1803333 Fronsec is always like this great unknown, and that's the thing of knowing about wine. 347 00:27:14,77.1813333 --> 00:27:15,267.1813333 Know the right places. 348 00:27:15,287.1813333 --> 00:27:17,207.1813333 Know what no one else is buying. 349 00:27:17,852.1813333 --> 00:27:19,852.1813333 know how great the winemakers are there. 350 00:27:20,292.1813333 --> 00:27:21,572.1813333 That's where you focus. 351 00:27:22,672.1813333 --> 00:27:24,382.1813333 So hopefully people will start buying Front Sac. 352 00:27:24,382.1813333 --> 00:27:31,732.1803333 So I can ask you though, like, how are you feeling about this wine? So it's not my like standout style. 353 00:27:31,882.1793333 --> 00:27:35,872.1803333 It's not my go to, but it really is opening up. 354 00:27:35,932.1803333 --> 00:27:38,32.1803333 There are so many layers to it. 355 00:27:38,212.1803333 --> 00:27:38,302.1803333 Yes. 356 00:27:38,352.1803333 --> 00:27:40,392.1803333 I'm getting even more of that. 357 00:27:40,392.1803333 --> 00:27:43,832.1803333 Like Hawthorne or Tea Berry. 358 00:27:44,162.1803333 --> 00:27:45,362.1803333 That's what I love tasting with you. 359 00:27:45,362.1803333 --> 00:27:47,222.1803333 Like you always pull things out that I miss. 360 00:27:47,762.1803333 --> 00:27:51,602.1803333 It's just very, it's very floral and that baked earth. 361 00:27:51,632.1803333 --> 00:27:56,732.1803333 It's just, it is, it is very intriguing and I wanna know more. 362 00:27:56,732.1803333 --> 00:27:58,112.1803333 It's not my go-to. 363 00:27:58,167.1803333 --> 00:27:59,252.1803333 Yes, yes, yes. 364 00:27:59,252.1803333 --> 00:27:59,627.1803333 It's, it doesn't. 365 00:28:00,227.1803333 --> 00:28:12,677.1803333 Send off all the serotonin for their wines, but I would never hesitate to pour this for someone who was a very serious, especially cabernet drinker. 366 00:28:13,137.1803333 --> 00:28:14,587.1803333 I think this is something that could really. 367 00:28:15,317.1803333 --> 00:28:16,567.1803333 Change people's minds. 368 00:28:16,577.1803333 --> 00:28:17,447.1803333 That's, really true. 369 00:28:17,597.1803333 --> 00:28:19,747.1803333 Oh my god, absolutely stunning. 370 00:28:22,557.1803333 --> 00:28:25,277.1803333 Well, thank you so much, friends out there. 371 00:28:25,517.1803333 --> 00:28:29,7.1803333 If you enjoyed this, please like and subscribe. 372 00:28:29,57.1803333 --> 00:28:30,47.1803333 We'll be here. 373 00:28:30,47.1803333 --> 00:28:35,272.1803333 We're going to Keep doing these little jokes for you, and we'd love to hear from you. 374 00:28:35,272.1803333 --> 00:28:39,682.1803333 So if you have any thoughts on subjects or feedback, we'd love to hear it. 375 00:28:40,112.1803333 --> 00:28:40,992.1803333 Until next time. 376 00:28:41,232.1803333 --> 00:28:41,972.1793333 Until next time. 377 00:28:42,2.1803333 --> 00:28:51,282.1803333 And as always, tell people, right, if you like this, if you find this, like, delightfully offensive, Yeah, if you like the thing, tell people. 378 00:28:51,392.1803333 --> 00:28:52,212.1803333 It's really important. 379 00:28:52,212.1803333 --> 00:28:55,882.1803333 It's the only thing that really matters is to tell people about it. 380 00:28:56,232.1803333 --> 00:28:57,892.1803333 Sure, absolutely love the reviews. 381 00:28:58,132.1803333 --> 00:29:04,682.1798333 But also, more importantly, yeah, look, if you want to hear us talk about things, you know, you know, throw us a line, throw a comment in. 382 00:29:04,682.1798333 --> 00:29:07,182.1803333 We're gonna read, we read everything you send us. 383 00:29:07,552.1803333 --> 00:29:09,832.1803333 Mean, nice, anything. 384 00:29:10,12.1803333 --> 00:29:11,152.1803333 So let us know. 385 00:29:11,162.1803333 --> 00:29:20,762.1803333 It's really, because, look, we get The drink and talk and things we do, you know, like you get a little bit of what the wine school is about, you know, the wine school of Philadelphia, and. 386 00:29:21,437.1803333 --> 00:29:26,437.1803333 The reason why we're, you know, how long have we been teaching? I've been teaching for 25 years now. 387 00:29:26,737.1803333 --> 00:29:27,77.1803333 Yeah. 388 00:29:27,147.1803333 --> 00:29:27,457.1803333 Wow. 389 00:29:27,897.1803333 --> 00:29:28,367.1803333 All right. 390 00:29:28,457.1803333 --> 00:29:29,507.1803333 All right, guys. 391 00:29:29,657.1793333 --> 00:29:30,427.1793333 Take good care. 392 00:29:30,477.1793333 --> 00:29:31,167.1803333 See you next time. 393 00:29:36,137.1803333 --> 00:29:39,117.1803333 Thanks for spending time with us on After Wine School. 394 00:29:39,657.1803333 --> 00:29:46,767.1793333 If you enjoyed today's episode, hit subscribe so you never miss out on more wine wisdom, tips, and laughs.
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(00:26):
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All right, everybody. 8 00:00:43,436.001 --> 00:00:47,366.001 Welcome to after school, the wine podcast.
(00:47):
.001And today we are going to talk about wood. 10 00:00:53,616.001 --> 00:00:54,766.001 Oak, actually. 11 00:00:55,766.001 --> 00:00:56,956.001 Thank you, Keith. 12 00:00:57,206.001 --> 00:01:03,866.001 And the wine we're going to be tasting is Chateau Carl Magnus, the Terra Luna bottling from Front Sac.
.001And before we get started, I'd like to introduce ourselves. 14 00:01:07,806.001 --> 00:01:08,896.001 My name is Alana Zerbe. 15 00:01:08,926.001 --> 00:01:12,236 I am the Director of Wine Education at the Wine School of Philadelphia. 16 00:01:12,626.001 --> 00:01:22,606.001 And joining me, as always, is my partner, Keith Wallace, the Director and Founder of the Wine School of Philadelphia, Let me get going here. 17 00:01:22,646.002 --> 00:01:22,946.002 All right. 18 00:01:22,956.002 --> 00:01:24,666.002 So we do have a sponsor. 19 00:01:24,866.002 --> 00:01:32,16.002 Our sponsor is the National Wine School, the premier online education center for aspiring sommeliers. 20 00:01:32,401.002 --> 00:01:50,421.001 And they have asked us to give a quick disclaimer that any of the opinions or viewpoints you hear us espouse on this podcast are truly our own and not the viewpoints or opinions of the National Wine School, the Wine School of Philadelphia, or any other business. 21 00:01:50,421.002 --> 00:01:52,780.902 about wine, whatever we feel like talking about. 22 00:01:52,880.902 --> 00:02:09,630.902 and that's, yeah, and really what that comes down to is an email saying, Keith, we love you, but man, really? Really? Yeah, well, you know, it is after school, and you know, it is, to be honest, this is, you know, this is a condensed version of. 23 00:02:09,860.902 --> 00:02:11,830.902 How I teach, you know, how we teach. 24 00:02:11,830.902 --> 00:02:14,580.902 I mean, we, you know, bring the joy, baby. 25 00:02:14,580.902 --> 00:02:21,740.902 I don't understand what, how, why people can't, you know, have the intelligent, smart, creative, like so many people in the wine trade. 26 00:02:22,20.902 --> 00:02:31,760.902 So many people in wine education are these absolutely fantastic people, but they think they have to wear a suit and tie and just drone on and have some PowerPoints and think that's it. 27 00:02:32,50.902 --> 00:02:33,550.902 No fun. 28 00:02:33,550.902 --> 00:02:34,170.902 It's booze. 29 00:02:34,180.902 --> 00:02:34,870.902 It's wine. 30 00:02:35,200.902 --> 00:02:36,80.902 It's amazing. 31 00:02:36,320.902 --> 00:02:45,180.902 And so we're talking about a Oak aging because it's something that everyone's always curious about and I love the question. 32 00:02:45,190.902 --> 00:02:50,240.902 So now you're going to have far more questions than I have answers. 33 00:02:50,240.902 --> 00:03:01,230.902 So, you know, you want to start or you want me to start? I think it would be very helpful if we just talked about for folks out there what oak does. 34 00:03:01,320.902 --> 00:03:01,920.902 Oh. 35 00:03:02,380.902 --> 00:03:07,230.901 why winemakers use it, maybe some of the benefits and some of the. 36 00:03:08,175.902 --> 00:03:18,75.902 Things that make it difficult, or possibly seen as a negative in some instances, and then we can maybe then get into the nitty gritty of American, Slovenian. 37 00:03:18,75.902 --> 00:03:24,325.901 Oh, and French, Well, let's okay, let's start with, why we use it. 38 00:03:26,985.901 --> 00:03:30,405.901 Historically, we use it because it was available. 39 00:03:30,815.901 --> 00:03:32,95.901 Literally, that's why. 40 00:03:32,125.901 --> 00:03:33,735.901 Because it was, oak. 41 00:03:34,165.901 --> 00:03:50,865.901 Forests were throughout Europe and wherever you were making wine, there were usually forests of oak and, and sometimes you were buying it for other countries, but, and then when maybe there's a blockade and you start using local oak, that's how in Bordeaux, they started using French oak. 42 00:03:51,120.901 --> 00:04:25,95.9 from the nearby forest because they used to use Baltic oak and then there was a war and they couldn't get it anymore and then so they started using local oak and so it completely changed the flavor of the wines but so we use it because it's available just like when here in United States when we started making whiskey we used Any kind of oak that was available or any kind of wood to me that whatever's nearby we used but you know, it was primarily, you know, there's way more oak in america Than other kinds of trees. 43 00:04:25,95.901 --> 00:04:40,735.901 So that's what we used and you know It just was a storage facility, you know, and like you didn't originally use it for anything other than to store it If you didn't sell your wine fast enough, really what you really wanted to do was sell it as fast as you can. 44 00:04:40,735.901 --> 00:04:42,565.901 You put it in your vessel, you ship it out. 45 00:04:42,935.901 --> 00:04:51,505.901 Well, what if it just stuck around in your warehouse for a year or two? Well, you know what? They ended up finding out that The wines just start tasting better. 46 00:04:51,535.901 --> 00:04:51,905.901 Mm hmm. 47 00:04:52,295.901 --> 00:04:54,815.901 they started getting whole new characteristics. 48 00:04:55,215.901 --> 00:05:04,675.901 And, well, either they went bad and it was awful, or some of those barrels just really end up being like this, Jesus, what the hell happened? Like, this is insane. 49 00:05:04,725.901 --> 00:05:09,105.9 this wine was just mediocre, and now it's like, tastes amazing. 50 00:05:09,505.9 --> 00:05:12,205.901 And because there are certain flavors, that we just love. 51 00:05:12,215.901 --> 00:05:12,235.901 Yeah. 52 00:05:12,236.001 --> 00:05:14,895.901 Like, there's certain flavors of spices that we love. 53 00:05:14,905.901 --> 00:05:15,505.901 Mm hmm. 54 00:05:15,605.901 --> 00:05:46,885.9 And like things like cinnamon and nutmeg and allspice, you know, basically your pumpkin spices, right? You know that the things that you make your pumpkin pie with an apple pie vanilla all these things and what people don't realize is These components that are in these seeds that are nutmeg and vanilla These are all coming from woodsy plants like either trees or most of our bushes or like cinnamon is from a bark, so, but they're all coming from woodsy plants. 55 00:05:47,95.9 --> 00:06:15,510.8995 And these woodsy plants, all of them have the same components in them, So like, yeah, cinnamon's not surprisingly has more Cinnamanic acid in its bark and so it has that cinnamon flavor Certain kinds of you know, like pods like like surprisingly vanilla has a component that's called vanillin Just more of it than most other kinds of pods woodsy plants, but they all have some of it to some degree and oak has the same thing. 56 00:06:15,510.8995 --> 00:06:27,190.8995 It has a lot of them and they're just happening in the right percentage that if you, if you leave something in an oak barrel for a couple months, you're not going to get it. 57 00:06:27,190.8995 --> 00:06:31,270.8985 But if you leave it in for a year, you get a lot of it, especially if that's a new barrel. 58 00:06:31,430.8985 --> 00:06:40,100.8995 And now here's the reason why we used it originally is because it's waterproof, right? It, you know, you could fill it with anything, you know, you could put anything in it, dill pickles. 59 00:06:40,150.8995 --> 00:06:41,80.8985 You could also roll it. 60 00:06:41,605.8995 --> 00:06:42,105.8995 Yes. 61 00:06:42,115.8995 --> 00:06:42,725.8995 Stack it. 62 00:06:42,755.8995 --> 00:06:43,995.8995 Yes, exactly. 63 00:06:43,995.8995 --> 00:06:45,905.8995 They're great for warehousing and shipping. 64 00:06:45,915.8995 --> 00:06:48,285.8995 That's why they were, that's why we used them. 65 00:06:49,145.8995 --> 00:06:50,545.8995 That's all it was. 66 00:06:50,575.8995 --> 00:06:55,385.8985 You know, it was a way to store stuff and ship it so that it would be efficient. 67 00:06:56,5.8985 --> 00:07:03,55.7995 But it just ended up having this secondary benefit when we used oak than any other kind of tree. 68 00:07:03,55.7995 --> 00:07:09,465.7995 There are trees that make it taste weird, You know, one does not really want to use, cherry wood to make barrels. 69 00:07:09,475.7995 --> 00:07:12,545.7995 It's, well, hard to do, but also it's just a really weird flavor. 70 00:07:12,545.7995 --> 00:07:14,835.7995 Like a slightly soapy, you know, flavor. 71 00:07:14,835.7995 --> 00:07:15,235.7995 It's weird. 72 00:07:17,175.7985 --> 00:07:42,983.298 Not that I ever tried that, I mean, I did, I did, that was a very failed experiment, but, you know, yeah, so this is why, and we also have to, to make barrels, it's just a part of how you make it is you have to heat, right, because, you know, it's oak, it's hard to bend, you can't bend it, so you have to bend it into place to make a barrel, and so you need a combination. 73 00:07:42,983.298 --> 00:07:53,73.298 You need to use steel or some sort of metal hoops to keep it in place, but to get it into place in the first place, you have to use flame. 74 00:07:53,73.298 --> 00:08:05,238.298 You have to heat it up to bend it, right? Because you heat it up, the lignin actually softens, which is part of, you know, what makes the structure of oak and any Bend it into place, but so you have it inside is charred now. 75 00:08:05,318.298 --> 00:08:27,48.297 So you end up having not just all these spice flavors now You have a char flavor And so this is kind of like you're you know You're like baking a cake now, right? Because now you have char just like Coffee and chocolate does and creme brulee has and you have vanilla and cinnamon and nutmeg flavors They're kind of pull out and many others. 76 00:08:27,578.297 --> 00:08:35,638.297 So you end up having these other flavors to play with And oak and that's why now we really like culturally we love that. 77 00:08:35,698.297 --> 00:08:44,438.297 I mean, who doesn't like apple pie or pumpkin pie or creme brulee or vanilla, like, or pumpkin spice? I don't like apple pie. 78 00:08:44,498.296 --> 00:08:45,358.296 I know you don't. 79 00:08:45,428.297 --> 00:08:46,88.296 I know you don't. 80 00:08:46,98.297 --> 00:08:49,498.297 That's why I said something because I am not a nice person. 81 00:08:50,498.297 --> 00:08:52,888.297 It is my absolute favorite pie. 82 00:08:53,558.297 --> 00:08:55,278.297 But of course I had it growing up. 83 00:08:55,593.297 --> 00:08:59,293.297 With, cheddar cheese on top, which probably makes you like it even less. 84 00:08:59,513.297 --> 00:08:59,803.297 Correct. 85 00:09:02,333.297 --> 00:09:02,953.297 Oh, God. 86 00:09:02,983.297 --> 00:09:03,343.297 All right. 87 00:09:03,343.397 --> 00:09:05,170.03033333 you have ice cream No, just cheddar cheese. 88 00:09:05,200.02933333 --> 00:09:05,330.02933333 Okay. 89 00:09:05,400.02933333 --> 00:09:06,590.03033333 If you have it one or the other. 90 00:09:06,620.03033333 --> 00:09:08,120.03033333 Like, you can do a scoop of vanilla. 91 00:09:08,160.03033333 --> 00:09:08,530.03033333 Okay. 92 00:09:08,590.02933333 --> 00:09:09,330.02983333 Or cheddar cheese. 93 00:09:09,330.02983333 --> 00:09:09,600.02933333 Okay. 94 00:09:09,640.03033333 --> 00:09:12,350.03133333 If you're a grown up, you know, like when I was a kid, that's what my grandfather did. 95 00:09:12,350.03133333 --> 00:09:13,889.93133333 I'm like, I want to be like my granddad. 96 00:09:14,180.03133333 --> 00:09:16,160.03133333 Yeah, right on top, but yeah. 97 00:09:16,160.03133333 --> 00:09:16,910.03133333 Okay, all right. 98 00:09:17,0.03133333 --> 00:09:17,320.03133333 oak. 99 00:09:17,510.03133333 --> 00:09:18,540.03133333 But yeah, so back to oak. 100 00:09:18,570.03133333 --> 00:09:21,720.03133333 So that's the basics of why we use it. 101 00:09:22,310.03133333 --> 00:09:24,450.03133333 It was available accidentally. 102 00:09:24,460.03133333 --> 00:09:30,10.03133333 We actually discovered that we added more flavor if you left it in a new barrel for about a year. 103 00:09:30,190.03133333 --> 00:09:32,810.03133333 And, yeah, that's why we use them. 104 00:09:32,840.03133333 --> 00:09:38,380.03133333 and to this day, culturally, we love these flavors and it's not just because it's in. 105 00:09:38,735.03133333 --> 00:09:44,875.03133333 You know, wine, it's also, and whiskey, it's why we love bourbon, because of all those oak flavors. 106 00:09:44,915.03133333 --> 00:09:52,615.02933333 we just love the spices, we put in everything, and every culture does, whether it's sweet or savory, like, we love spices. 107 00:09:52,655.03033333 --> 00:10:10,430.03033333 So can you talk about, from a winemaker perspective, how you keep tabs on your barrels and monitor the toast levels and how much is new and aging and when you need to swap them out and just a little bit of the inside scoop on the production end. 108 00:10:10,570.02933333 --> 00:10:13,10.03033333 So in another podcast, we talked about pricing. 109 00:10:13,440.03033333 --> 00:10:15,480.03033333 we can only use the level of oak. 110 00:10:15,775.03033333 --> 00:10:20,115.03033333 Where it's financially feasible, because the oak barrels are expensive. 111 00:10:20,445.03033333 --> 00:10:21,755.03033333 they're the largest cost. 112 00:10:22,15.03033333 --> 00:10:26,885.02983333 the barrels cost more than the winemaker, usually the rent or the cost of, your whole production facility. 113 00:10:26,915.02983333 --> 00:10:33,5.02983333 That single product, that's the biggest capital expense you're going to have in a winery, because you gotta change them out. 114 00:10:33,5.02983333 --> 00:10:35,585.02983333 if you wanna have maximum big, flavors. 115 00:10:35,965.02983333 --> 00:10:44,555.02983333 You are going to have to swap them out at least 50 percent of them every year if you're going for a top tier wine with a lot of massive oak flavor. 116 00:10:45,25.02983333 --> 00:10:54,175.02983333 That does require you to have, you know, using a grape like Cabernet or Syrah that is actually full enough body and have enough tendons to match that oak flavor. 117 00:10:54,295.02983333 --> 00:10:57,540.02983333 Now, Lower down if you like. 118 00:10:57,540.02983333 --> 00:10:59,850.02983333 You're, you know, it's a mid-tier or inexpensive one. 119 00:10:59,850.02983333 --> 00:11:02,100.02983333 You're using much less new, new oak, much less. 120 00:11:02,100.02983333 --> 00:11:06,290.02983333 And oftentimes you're using most of the new oak for your luxury levels. 121 00:11:06,290.02983333 --> 00:11:20,220.02983333 And then your, we call 'em seasons your second season, or third season, or fourth season in your mid-tier, and then mostly in your, barrels, which like their fifth season or sixth season in your less, you know, your, your, your lowest level. 122 00:11:20,500.02983333 --> 00:11:24,360.02983333 So there's almost no flavors and they're just basically vessels to carry it in. 123 00:11:25,720.02983333 --> 00:11:27,820.02983333 And so that's what we typically do. 124 00:11:27,880.02983333 --> 00:11:32,760.02883333 We also will, use oak elements within it. 125 00:11:32,760.02883333 --> 00:11:34,280.02883333 like we have, little. 126 00:11:34,430.02883333 --> 00:11:42,140.02883333 Oak balls, they toasted they're specifically designed for aging wines and just adding these in, to give us those oak flavors. 127 00:11:42,210.02883333 --> 00:11:47,70.02883333 And so we use that, that's still expensive, but it's so much less expensive. 128 00:11:47,70.02983333 --> 00:11:50,799.92983333 So if you want those oak flavors that people expect, then we. 129 00:11:51,20.02983333 --> 00:11:51,940.02983333 We'll do that too. 130 00:11:52,880.02983333 --> 00:11:55,340.02983333 But so the hard thing is how you track it. 131 00:11:55,380.02983333 --> 00:12:51,255.02883334 Like it is, if you saw my sheets as a winemaker, it's just pure spreadsheets of where they are, where in the winery, Each barrel is identified, what it is, how old it is, what cooper, which is the most important thing, what cooperage, what toast level, where it is, what's, of course, what's in it, but I'll also have it along with, records, most of what I always did was actually with chalk on the barrel itself, identifying what it is, maybe a little, now these days I'll put a, A little, scan, so I can scan it, so I can actually identify that specific barrel, to what it is, where it is, so I can keep it as a electronic database, so I can just pull it up, but, you know, and so I can just tell people where, or they can just look it up, and like, oh, what's in here, they can use a scanner, scan it, what's in there, or just Look on, you know, on our database. 132 00:12:51,255.02883334 --> 00:12:56,85.02883334 Okay, I need this, this, and they can find out where in the, in the, okay. 133 00:12:56,205.02883334 --> 00:13:14,830.02883334 So it takes organization and huge Absolutely, and before, like, I mean, I've been I was making wine in the early aughts, but we weren't using relational databases nearly as much as we do now and definitely don't have any, didn't have any online, software. 134 00:13:14,940.02883334 --> 00:13:22,830.02883334 So what we did was, yeah, it was largely just a book or a spreadsheet, you know, just like, you know, just a good old Excel spreadsheet. 135 00:13:23,210.02883334 --> 00:13:38,730.02783334 Are there, cooperages out there that have waitlists, or, are there those, so bougie that the average winery couldn't get a hold of their barrels? Well, here's the thing. 136 00:13:39,315.02883334 --> 00:14:06,415.03033334 Not really, however, your cooperage, which is they who make your barrels, you do have to kiss their ass, especially the French ones, like, you know, them and their, you know, or their distributor, their local distributor, because there's a difference between being able to get them and then actually getting access to really good barrels, Having an order where you're really defined to exactly what you want without pissing them off. 137 00:14:06,995.03033334 --> 00:14:09,875.02933334 Just the more you want, the more it costs. 138 00:14:10,395.03033334 --> 00:14:14,395.02883334 but you can, and there may be Coopers out there that I don't know about. 139 00:14:14,605.02983334 --> 00:14:17,895.02983334 Or I just don't have never worked with that are so exclusive. 140 00:14:17,915.02983334 --> 00:14:19,765.02983334 But you know, I'm not that kind of winemaker. 141 00:14:19,765.02983334 --> 00:14:22,525.02983334 I'm the kind of winemaker who, more consulting where I'm going to come in. 142 00:14:22,535.02883334 --> 00:14:24,225.02983334 I'm like, okay, we're gonna use this and this and this. 143 00:14:24,535.02883334 --> 00:14:25,565.02983334 And then we're going to go out. 144 00:14:25,605.02983334 --> 00:14:29,765.02983334 And it's usually based on what's available. 145 00:14:29,825.02883334 --> 00:14:35,525.02983334 You know, what distributor, what do you have locally? And if you're in California, it's really easy to get anything. 146 00:14:36,45.02983334 --> 00:14:45,405.02983334 East coast, really hard to get what you want, you know? And so you have to be really nice to your distributor I had one client who actually, ended up becoming the distributor for barrels so that they could have access. 147 00:14:46,95.02983334 --> 00:15:04,675.03183334 Yeah, that's another smart thing, especially on the East Coast, because they also, a lot of these, cooperages really don't have much, you know, it's not, they don't know who to go to on the East Coast or even, obscure place on the West Coast where in, you know, in Columbia Valley, like it's harder to get, you know, good distribution. 148 00:15:04,685.03183334 --> 00:15:05,195.03183334 So. 149 00:15:05,485.03183334 --> 00:15:05,805.03183334 Yeah. 150 00:15:05,835.03183334 --> 00:15:06,465.03183334 So there are. 151 00:15:06,485.03183334 --> 00:15:06,835.03183334 Yeah. 152 00:15:07,165.03183334 --> 00:15:11,415.03183334 So yeah, it's, it's kind of a mess, but it also is, those guys are different. 153 00:15:11,425.03183334 --> 00:15:12,685.03183334 They're a whole different breed. 154 00:15:12,685.03183334 --> 00:15:19,615.03183334 These are, if you're a Cooper, you are part madman, part genius. 155 00:15:19,905.03183334 --> 00:15:21,555.03183334 And I'm scared to shit of you. 156 00:15:22,75.03083334 --> 00:15:22,695.03083334 Oh God. 157 00:15:22,885.03283334 --> 00:15:27,625.03183334 They are so the smartest, hardest working, meanest, most delightful. 158 00:15:27,905.03183334 --> 00:15:29,235.03183334 Never go drinking with one. 159 00:15:29,550.03183333 --> 00:15:30,780.03183333 I learned that the hard way. 160 00:15:31,100.03183333 --> 00:15:33,340.03183333 They, I, it's hard to drink me under the table. 161 00:15:33,360.03183334 --> 00:15:36,730.03183334 I got drunk, the only time, two people who drunk me on the table. 162 00:15:37,30.03183333 --> 00:15:39,450.03183333 One was a Portuguese fisherman and the other was a Cooper. 163 00:15:39,920.03083333 --> 00:15:47,865.03183333 And those are the two people who just, where I realized that I was, I, yeah, that I, I, I was just, I was a mere child. 164 00:15:48,455.03183333 --> 00:15:48,975.03183333 Okay. 165 00:15:49,15.03183333 --> 00:15:50,335.03183333 So this, it's serious business. 166 00:15:50,355.03183333 --> 00:15:51,225.03233333 They take it very seriously. 167 00:15:51,235.03233333 --> 00:15:52,215.03233333 Oh my God. 168 00:16:24,495.03233333 --> 00:16:27,555.03233333 like your family does it and you're born into it? And some people do. 169 00:16:27,705.03233333 --> 00:16:33,5.02933333 Like, okay, this doesn't happen anymore, but this tradition stopped, only recently. 170 00:16:33,75.02933333 --> 00:16:35,825.02933333 But they would, if you were in, Cooper, who was like an. 171 00:16:36,450.02933333 --> 00:16:48,160.0293333 Like, you were trained to be a cooper, and when you were actually officially going to be the cooper or a cooper, they would, put you in a barrel and roll you down the hill. 172 00:16:49,510.0293333 --> 00:16:53,730.0283333 What? Yeah, and you, you know, but you were messed up by the end. 173 00:16:53,740.0283333 --> 00:16:58,460.0283333 Like, yeah, like people would dislocate fingers, you know, get, you know, broken things, yeah. 174 00:16:58,690.0283333 --> 00:16:59,740.0283333 and then drink heavily. 175 00:17:00,630.0283333 --> 00:17:01,250.0283333 Yes. 176 00:17:01,810.0283333 --> 00:17:04,60.0273333 Okay, these are people who work with their hands. 177 00:17:04,60.0283333 --> 00:17:04,640.0283333 Yes. 178 00:17:05,150.0283333 --> 00:17:06,530.0283333 So your initiation. 179 00:17:06,530.0283333 --> 00:17:07,160.0283333 Yes. 180 00:17:07,840.0283333 --> 00:17:09,460.0283333 Is something that might break your hands. 181 00:17:09,600.0283333 --> 00:17:10,0.0283333 Oh, yes. 182 00:17:10,100.0283333 --> 00:17:20,100.0283333 Oh, they were oh, they're just they are You know, like they are just the craziest human beings, but also just smartest like they You know, like they're vikings. 183 00:17:20,150.0283333 --> 00:17:20,590.0283333 They scare me. 184 00:17:20,930.0283333 --> 00:17:21,930.0283333 That's what I was thinking. 185 00:17:21,940.0283333 --> 00:17:43,90.0283333 No, they're yeah, but you need them Like you absolutely need them They it is a darling heart and it was one of those That if I had known that you could be this crazy and this hard working and this smart and this you know I I may have been you know, like I should oh could I've been a cooper? I would have loved to have been a cooper like you you because everyone like you can just be mean to everybody And everyone's scared of you. 186 00:17:43,90.0283333 --> 00:17:43,670.0283333 You're through that. 187 00:17:43,810.0283333 --> 00:17:47,600.0283333 I'm, sorry keith You can be me and everyone's scared of you. 188 00:17:48,420.0283333 --> 00:17:55,530.0293333 Are you sure that you haven't figured that out? All right, that's fair enough. 189 00:17:55,760.0293333 --> 00:17:57,820.0283333 I have, I have, I, I found my own place. 190 00:17:58,370.0293333 --> 00:17:59,770.0293333 I'm in a happy place in my life. 191 00:17:59,830.0283333 --> 00:18:00,460.0293333 That's true. 192 00:18:01,10.0293333 --> 00:18:01,650.0283333 That's true. 193 00:18:02,340.0293333 --> 00:18:07,95.0293333 Because basically what I was thinking is like, oh, it's, you know, cause Well, we come from the, they're like the chef of the wide world. 194 00:18:07,275.0293333 --> 00:18:12,525.0293333 Like they are, there's the material spirits that make everything happen without them. 195 00:18:12,565.0293333 --> 00:18:14,5.0293333 You, you can't do anything. 196 00:18:14,15.0293333 --> 00:18:14,845.0283333 So yeah. 197 00:18:14,845.0293333 --> 00:18:18,25.0293333 And because I was a chef, in my very early days. 198 00:18:18,275.0293333 --> 00:18:18,515.0293333 Yeah. 199 00:18:18,515.0293333 --> 00:18:18,875.0283333 I guess. 200 00:18:18,885.0293333 --> 00:18:21,775.0283333 So I guess, yeah, I guess that's probably why, why I've. 201 00:18:21,935.0293333 --> 00:18:22,325.0293333 Yeah. 202 00:18:22,455.0293333 --> 00:18:22,835.0293333 Okay. 203 00:18:22,875.0293333 --> 00:18:23,305.0293333 You're right. 204 00:18:23,485.0293333 --> 00:18:23,795.0293333 All right. 205 00:18:23,855.0293333 --> 00:18:24,625.0293333 I've been called out. 206 00:18:25,65.0293333 --> 00:18:26,165.0293333 No, this is fascinating. 207 00:18:26,215.0293333 --> 00:18:31,85.0293333 So for the folks out there, could you just talk a little bit about different types of oak and. 208 00:18:31,225.0293333 --> 00:18:32,35.0293333 Of course. 209 00:18:32,105.0293333 --> 00:18:33,35.0293333 So, okay. 210 00:18:34,295.0283333 --> 00:18:37,355.0293333 In wine, it's always going to be French oak. 211 00:18:37,845.0293333 --> 00:18:44,875.0293333 Now we can go into what forests, like the LA forest, that, but that it's more about the cooperage. 212 00:18:45,305.0293333 --> 00:18:52,635.0293333 But, usually, what you're talking about is, the most important thing in French Oak is what the toast level is. 213 00:18:52,725.0293333 --> 00:19:01,870.0293333 So, most wineries today, you're using medium to medium plus toast meaning that it's not a light toast inside It's not a heavy toast. 214 00:19:01,880.0293333 --> 00:19:08,880.0293333 So if you looked inside the barrel, it would look like it was gently toast to toast It would look like toast. 215 00:19:08,950.0283333 --> 00:19:09,860.0293333 Okay inside. 216 00:19:09,860.0293333 --> 00:19:21,375.0293333 It'd be like a little toast and not charred not burnt like Whiskey barrels are typically what's called an alligator char, and that's like, they look, they've been so burnt they look like alligator skin. 217 00:19:21,785.0293333 --> 00:19:22,535.0293333 Oh. 218 00:19:22,545.0293333 --> 00:19:23,25.0293333 Yeah. 219 00:19:23,35.0293333 --> 00:19:23,515.0293333 Okay. 220 00:19:23,545.0293333 --> 00:19:28,805.0283333 And then lightly toasted, you know, they look almost green, you know, they're barely toasted at all. 221 00:19:29,175.0293333 --> 00:19:37,25.0293333 So, like, you know, but what you usually are getting, as a rule of thumb, medium, medium plus toast in, you know, French oak. 222 00:19:37,335.0293333 --> 00:19:37,895.0293333 That's it. 223 00:19:38,485.0293333 --> 00:19:39,5.0293333 Certain wines. 224 00:19:40,155.0293333 --> 00:19:45,465.0293333 We'll be in American oak, or Eastern European oak. 225 00:19:46,185.0293333 --> 00:20:06,335.0288333 American oak, usually, like, maybe these days, there used to be much more in America, you'd see more American oak, but these days, typically, you're gonna see in some, like, Zinfandels, and some petite Syrahs are gonna be aged in American oak, and just big, happy wines do really well in American oak and you see some Australian oak. 226 00:20:06,505.0288333 --> 00:20:08,25.0288333 wineries using American oak. 227 00:20:08,395.0288333 --> 00:20:21,535.0283333 It's a really great effect, which everyone, you know, if you ever take, our Somalia programming, I always, they will show like, an Australian Cabernet that's been aged in French oak and pretty much the same wine that's been aged in American oak. 228 00:20:21,535.0283333 --> 00:20:23,775.0288333 So you can see the big difference between the two. 229 00:20:23,775.1288333 --> 00:20:26,575.0288333 That's, I think it's, it's critical to understand those flavor profiles. 230 00:20:26,575.0288333 --> 00:20:29,245.0288333 Barassa, right? Mostly. 231 00:20:29,245.0288333 --> 00:20:30,45.0288333 Yeah, exactly. 232 00:20:30,85.0288333 --> 00:20:33,920.0288333 These days, mostly it's because They're traditionally, they used American oak. 233 00:20:34,590.0288333 --> 00:20:42,270.0288333 And then you see some actually also in, for historic reasons, you see them in? Coro. 234 00:20:42,520.0278333 --> 00:20:42,630.0278333 Yes. 235 00:20:43,260.0288333 --> 00:20:43,380.0288333 Rioja. 236 00:20:43,820.0288333 --> 00:20:44,0.0288333 Rioja. 237 00:20:44,20.0278333 --> 00:20:50,510.0278333 You see a lot in Rioja, you see a lot in Spain, but using American oak, which for very different reasons, they're much older oak. 238 00:20:50,520.0278333 --> 00:20:52,630.0288333 Like, so that's, you know, not new American oak. 239 00:20:52,630.0288333 --> 00:21:04,60.0288333 So, and then you see in the middle ground, in the middle between those two, you'll see, Other European oaks and specifically from, one specific forest. 240 00:21:04,500.0288333 --> 00:21:08,750.0288333 And right now I'm actually blanking on the name of the forest. 241 00:21:09,560.0288333 --> 00:21:12,190.0283333 That we usually will use, Oh my God, I forgot. 242 00:21:13,10.0273333 --> 00:21:15,360.0263333 It's French American and then. 243 00:21:16,95.0273333 --> 00:21:17,515.0273333 Oh, well, Eastern European oak. 244 00:21:17,515.1273333 --> 00:21:17,550.0273333 Slovenian. 245 00:21:17,550.0273333 --> 00:21:19,475.0273333 Slovenian, Slovenian. 246 00:21:19,475.0273333 --> 00:21:20,125.0273333 Thank you. 247 00:21:20,165.0273333 --> 00:21:20,485.0273333 Thank you. 248 00:21:20,485.0273333 --> 00:21:21,515.0273333 I knew you knew it. 249 00:21:21,975.0273333 --> 00:21:23,595.0273333 you were thinking of a forest for some reason. 250 00:21:23,655.0263333 --> 00:21:25,495.0263333 Slovenia, it's not about the country. 251 00:21:25,495.0263333 --> 00:21:26,535.0253333 It's actually the forest. 252 00:21:26,535.1253333 --> 00:21:29,925.0253333 Slovenian oak, Slovenian oak. 253 00:21:31,375.0263333 --> 00:21:33,835.0263333 Now, all the oaks you're talking about, they're all white oak. 254 00:21:33,885.0263333 --> 00:21:37,415.0263333 They're just slightly different versions of it, of varieties of oak. 255 00:21:37,425.0263333 --> 00:21:41,5.0253333 Just like, you know, Cabernet and Merlot are different varieties of wine. 256 00:21:41,135.0263333 --> 00:21:45,515.0263333 Here we have slightly different varieties of white oak. 257 00:21:45,755.0263333 --> 00:21:46,565.0263333 So it has to be white oak. 258 00:21:47,495.0253333 --> 00:22:01,685.0253333 They have just slightly different porous the differences, the slight different, compounds, like how much more vanilla versus cinematic acid, in the, but also just how tighter grains, tighter grains and like just large, how large the pores are. 259 00:22:01,955.0253333 --> 00:22:04,235.0253333 And these are microscopic differences. 260 00:22:04,595.0253333 --> 00:22:09,365.0253333 So you end up having the biggest, more simple flavors, like the big P are the American Oak. 261 00:22:10,520.0253333 --> 00:22:22,70.0248333 The most delicate, complex flavors, like the, the tightest are going to be the, your French oak and the middle, somewhere in the middle is that Eastern European, that Slavonian oak, and you know, which is great as it fills in. 262 00:22:22,120.0248333 --> 00:22:33,110.0248333 so as a winemaker, I will use mostly French oak, but if I want a little bit more, fun in the oak, I will bring in some of those Eastern European oak barrels and that just gives it a more like, if I want to. 263 00:22:33,285.0248333 --> 00:22:37,305.0248333 Push up some of those more aromatics or more, you know, more vanilla or something. 264 00:22:37,935.0248333 --> 00:22:41,975.0248333 And if I have like a wine that just needs to be dumb. 265 00:22:42,595.0248333 --> 00:22:45,185.0253333 like a Zin or maybe it's a Cabernet. 266 00:22:45,605.0253333 --> 00:22:51,725.0253333 And, it's not particularly good, and I just need to make it, big, fun, and happy, high alcohol, then I'll throw that into American Oak. 267 00:22:51,785.0253333 --> 00:22:52,845.0253333 Mm, okay. 268 00:22:52,855.0243333 --> 00:22:54,655.0243333 So, American Oak, big, dumb, happy. 269 00:22:54,695.0253333 --> 00:22:54,875.0253333 Mm hmm. 270 00:22:54,885.0253333 --> 00:22:56,445.0253333 It's like, you know, everyone will like it. 271 00:22:56,445.0253333 --> 00:22:56,845.0253333 Labrador. 272 00:22:57,155.0253333 --> 00:22:59,355.0253333 Yeah, it's the labradoodle of wine. 273 00:22:59,355.1253333 --> 00:23:00,15.0253333 Yeah. 274 00:23:00,15.0253333 --> 00:23:00,795.0253333 Not labradoodle. 275 00:23:01,285.0253333 --> 00:23:01,665.0253333 you're right. 276 00:23:02,305.0253333 --> 00:23:04,285.0253333 Well, all of this talk about oak. 277 00:23:04,355.0253333 --> 00:23:04,725.0253333 Yeah. 278 00:23:04,755.0253333 --> 00:23:06,835.0253333 I, it makes me a little bit thirsty. 279 00:23:06,885.0253333 --> 00:23:09,465.0243333 Oh, what are we drinking? You want to show me the label? There it is. 280 00:23:10,105.0243333 --> 00:23:10,895.0253333 Yeah, there it is. 281 00:23:10,925.0253333 --> 00:23:12,955.0243333 This is the Chateau Carl Magnus. 282 00:23:12,970.1253333 --> 00:23:13,440.0253333 Yes. 283 00:23:13,740.0253333 --> 00:23:14,720.0253333 Terraluna. 284 00:23:14,780.0253333 --> 00:23:16,120.0253333 Absolutely. 285 00:23:16,480.0253333 --> 00:23:17,190.0253333 Yes. 286 00:23:17,280.0253333 --> 00:23:17,920.0253333 Terraluna. 287 00:23:17,940.0253333 --> 00:23:21,300.0253333 What does that mean? That's awesome. 288 00:23:21,880.0243333 --> 00:23:24,920.0243333 And, here we are. 289 00:23:25,620.0243333 --> 00:23:25,820.0243333 Thank you. 290 00:23:25,820.0253333 --> 00:23:27,810.0253333 Fronsek, Bordeaux. 291 00:23:28,410.0253333 --> 00:23:29,0.0253333 All right. 292 00:23:29,810.0253333 --> 00:23:30,280.0253333 Okay. 293 00:23:31,760.0243333 --> 00:23:33,250.0243333 My all, one of my. 294 00:23:33,995.0253333 --> 00:23:38,355.0253333 Fronsac is my go to place for delicious obscure Bordeaux. 295 00:23:40,675.0253333 --> 00:23:41,55.0253333 Okay. 296 00:23:42,145.0253333 --> 00:23:45,715.0253333 Now, before we started, we did have a little sip of this. 297 00:23:45,715.0253333 --> 00:23:45,975.0253333 Yeah. 298 00:23:46,95.0253333 --> 00:23:49,830.0243333 And you did mention, wet earth. 299 00:23:50,35.0243333 --> 00:23:50,885.0243333 Baked earth. 300 00:23:50,935.0243333 --> 00:23:51,275.0243333 Warm. 301 00:23:51,275.0243333 --> 00:23:56,185.0243333 And I don't use that description very much at all, but that's what I Yeah. 302 00:23:56,785.0243333 --> 00:24:00,575.0243333 So I, that smell then with the underlying of oak. 303 00:24:00,575.0243333 --> 00:24:10,810.0243333 So you have this almost It would be offensive if it wasn't ringed with with cigar box and spices But this is like regal. 304 00:24:10,870.0243333 --> 00:24:15,900.0243333 I think of like when I think of royalty, I think of Pomp and circumstance. 305 00:24:15,940.0233333 --> 00:24:20,195.0243333 They're probably a little smelly you know thinking like 18th century. 306 00:24:20,595.0243333 --> 00:24:23,645.0243333 Just, you know, not bathed particularly, but very impressive. 307 00:24:24,635.0243333 --> 00:24:25,855.0243333 I think of none of that. 308 00:24:25,855.1243333 --> 00:24:32,925.0233333 You know, I mean, come on, you just, you know, that they were smelling. 309 00:24:33,155.0243333 --> 00:24:43,335.0238333 They just, you know, and but I, that's why I, this is a very raw, this just is dignified, beautiful. 310 00:24:43,650.0238333 --> 00:24:49,510.0238333 Almost offensive, but not like it just hits me in the right place and all right, sip coming up. 311 00:24:49,570.0238333 --> 00:24:52,160.0238333 All right after that note, Okay. 312 00:24:52,200.0228333 --> 00:24:55,980.0228333 Now, you know, we started chatting just a while ago. 313 00:24:55,980.0228333 --> 00:25:01,480.0228333 I mean, it's been about half an hour since we tried this first and it is really opened up. 314 00:25:01,480.0228333 --> 00:25:04,320.0228333 I decanted this an hour before then we tried and that was an hour now. 315 00:25:04,320.0228333 --> 00:25:06,460.0228333 So it's an hour and a half in a glass. 316 00:25:07,860.0228333 --> 00:25:08,610.0228333 Wow. 317 00:25:09,250.0228333 --> 00:25:21,650.0218333 So at first, when we first tried this, I was deeply impressed with the structure, right? The evolution on the palette when you're going from the attack to the finish. 318 00:25:22,200.0228333 --> 00:25:23,630.0228333 It did the things that I love. 319 00:25:24,760.0228333 --> 00:25:29,360.0238333 It did that thing where it starts really intense and then turns beautiful. 320 00:25:29,360.0238333 --> 00:25:38,930.0238333 And then it starts becoming more intellectual and like more complex than finishing off with like real beautiful fleshiness. 321 00:25:39,630.0238333 --> 00:25:40,140.0238333 Now that. 322 00:25:40,675.0238333 --> 00:25:48,285.0238333 It's, you see, in Glass it's become more fleshy, richer, more decadent as it goes on, more Yes. 323 00:25:48,755.0238333 --> 00:25:51,505.0238333 Yeah, it's becoming that Merlot ness of it. 324 00:25:51,995.0238333 --> 00:25:56,305.0238333 But, yeah, it is, no, it is, it's the two sides. 325 00:25:56,305.0238333 --> 00:26:01,415.0238333 And this is why just being able to have a, opening a bottle and never just drinking it right away. 326 00:26:01,415.0238333 --> 00:26:03,55.0238333 But let it, let it sit. 327 00:26:03,375.0238333 --> 00:26:04,695.0228333 Have it over time. 328 00:26:05,405.0228333 --> 00:26:09,315.0238333 Like, it's a great way, right? Just, it's a great way to spend an evening. 329 00:26:09,445.0238333 --> 00:26:11,495.0238333 Or afternoon. 330 00:26:11,945.0238333 --> 00:26:14,435.0238333 Drinking and enjoying a wine. 331 00:26:14,835.0238333 --> 00:26:15,365.0238333 Bordeaux. 332 00:26:15,800.0238333 --> 00:26:18,120.0238333 And Front Sack specifically is a very intellectual wine. 333 00:26:18,120.0238333 --> 00:26:26,0.0228333 It's, it's that, so for me, when I have like an hermitage, right? That's pure, just decadence. 334 00:26:26,0.0228333 --> 00:26:32,830.0238333 It's intense, smelly, just it hits all like the emotional centers of my brain. 335 00:26:33,440.0238333 --> 00:26:34,880.0233333 Burgundy is the very opposite. 336 00:26:34,880.0233333 --> 00:26:38,951.4948333 It's just like, it's capturing my, you know, like I'm thinking deeply about it. 337 00:26:38,951.4948333 --> 00:26:40,197.1808333 Like I'm reading, Dostoevsky. 338 00:26:41,662.1808333 --> 00:26:49,562.1808333 But then this is in the middle, right? This, this is where it's hitting both the decadence and then the intellectual and it's going back and forth. 339 00:26:49,572.1808333 --> 00:26:50,542.1808333 That's for, that's mine. 340 00:26:52,517.1808333 --> 00:26:55,257.1808333 When I want great Bordeaux, and that's how I judge it. 341 00:26:55,577.1808333 --> 00:26:59,837.1808333 Varietal fingerprint, regional topicity, but then this. 342 00:27:00,317.1808333 --> 00:27:02,767.1798333 I need this part of it to make me happy. 343 00:27:03,117.1808333 --> 00:27:07,547.1798333 And this is doing that, and it's fine because this part, this isn't, I'm afraid, particularly expensive bottle. 344 00:27:07,547.1808333 --> 00:27:08,207.1808333 I know. 345 00:27:08,517.1808333 --> 00:27:09,17.1803333 I know. 346 00:27:09,97.1813333 --> 00:27:13,697.1803333 Fronsec is always like this great unknown, and that's the thing of knowing about wine. 347 00:27:14,77.1813333 --> 00:27:15,267.1813333 Know the right places. 348 00:27:15,287.1813333 --> 00:27:17,207.1813333 Know what no one else is buying. 349 00:27:17,852.1813333 --> 00:27:19,852.1813333 know how great the winemakers are there. 350 00:27:20,292.1813333 --> 00:27:21,572.1813333 That's where you focus. 351 00:27:22,672.1813333 --> 00:27:24,382.1813333 So hopefully people will start buying Front Sac. 352 00:27:24,382.1813333 --> 00:27:31,732.1803333 So I can ask you though, like, how are you feeling about this wine? So it's not my like standout style. 353 00:27:31,882.1793333 --> 00:27:35,872.1803333 It's not my go to, but it really is opening up. 354 00:27:35,932.1803333 --> 00:27:38,32.1803333 There are so many layers to it. 355 00:27:38,212.1803333 --> 00:27:38,302.1803333 Yes. 356 00:27:38,352.1803333 --> 00:27:40,392.1803333 I'm getting even more of that. 357 00:27:40,392.1803333 --> 00:27:43,832.1803333 Like Hawthorne or Tea Berry. 358 00:27:44,162.1803333 --> 00:27:45,362.1803333 That's what I love tasting with you. 359 00:27:45,362.1803333 --> 00:27:47,222.1803333 Like you always pull things out that I miss. 360 00:27:47,762.1803333 --> 00:27:51,602.1803333 It's just very, it's very floral and that baked earth. 361 00:27:51,632.1803333 --> 00:27:56,732.1803333 It's just, it is, it is very intriguing and I wanna know more. 362 00:27:56,732.1803333 --> 00:27:58,112.1803333 It's not my go-to. 363 00:27:58,167.1803333 --> 00:27:59,252.1803333 Yes, yes, yes. 364 00:27:59,252.1803333 --> 00:27:59,627.1803333 It's, it doesn't. 365 00:28:00,227.1803333 --> 00:28:12,677.1803333 Send off all the serotonin for their wines, but I would never hesitate to pour this for someone who was a very serious, especially cabernet drinker. 366 00:28:13,137.1803333 --> 00:28:14,587.1803333 I think this is something that could really. 367 00:28:15,317.1803333 --> 00:28:16,567.1803333 Change people's minds. 368 00:28:16,577.1803333 --> 00:28:17,447.1803333 That's, really true. 369 00:28:17,597.1803333 --> 00:28:19,747.1803333 Oh my god, absolutely stunning. 370 00:28:22,557.1803333 --> 00:28:25,277.1803333 Well, thank you so much, friends out there. 371 00:28:25,517.1803333 --> 00:28:29,7.1803333 If you enjoyed this, please like and subscribe. 372 00:28:29,57.1803333 --> 00:28:30,47.1803333 We'll be here. 373 00:28:30,47.1803333 --> 00:28:35,272.1803333 We're going to Keep doing these little jokes for you, and we'd love to hear from you. 374 00:28:35,272.1803333 --> 00:28:39,682.1803333 So if you have any thoughts on subjects or feedback, we'd love to hear it. 375 00:28:40,112.1803333 --> 00:28:40,992.1803333 Until next time. 376 00:28:41,232.1803333 --> 00:28:41,972.1793333 Until next time. 377 00:28:42,2.1803333 --> 00:28:51,282.1803333 And as always, tell people, right, if you like this, if you find this, like, delightfully offensive, Yeah, if you like the thing, tell people. 378 00:28:51,392.1803333 --> 00:28:52,212.1803333 It's really important. 379 00:28:52,212.1803333 --> 00:28:55,882.1803333 It's the only thing that really matters is to tell people about it. 380 00:28:56,232.1803333 --> 00:28:57,892.1803333 Sure, absolutely love the reviews. 381 00:28:58,132.1803333 --> 00:29:04,682.1798333 But also, more importantly, yeah, look, if you want to hear us talk about things, you know, you know, throw us a line, throw a comment in. 382 00:29:04,682.1798333 --> 00:29:07,182.1803333 We're gonna read, we read everything you send us. 383 00:29:07,552.1803333 --> 00:29:09,832.1803333 Mean, nice, anything. 384 00:29:10,12.1803333 --> 00:29:11,152.1803333 So let us know. 385 00:29:11,162.1803333 --> 00:29:20,762.1803333 It's really, because, look, we get The drink and talk and things we do, you know, like you get a little bit of what the wine school is about, you know, the wine school of Philadelphia, and. 386 00:29:21,437.1803333 --> 00:29:26,437.1803333 The reason why we're, you know, how long have we been teaching? I've been teaching for 25 years now. 387 00:29:26,737.1803333 --> 00:29:27,77.1803333 Yeah. 388 00:29:27,147.1803333 --> 00:29:27,457.1803333 Wow. 389 00:29:27,897.1803333 --> 00:29:28,367.1803333 All right. 390 00:29:28,457.1803333 --> 00:29:29,507.1803333 All right, guys. 391 00:29:29,657.1793333 --> 00:29:30,427.1793333 Take good care. 392 00:29:30,477.1793333 --> 00:29:31,167.1803333 See you next time. 393 00:29:36,137.1803333 --> 00:29:39,117.1803333 Thanks for spending time with us on After Wine School. 394 00:29:39,657.1803333 --> 00:29:46,767.1793333 If you enjoyed today's episode, hit subscribe so you never miss out on more wine wisdom, tips, and laughs.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.