Winemaker Interview with Tom Gamble of Gamble Estates

Episode Transcript
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Welcome to After Wine School, the podcast where the real stories of wine get uncorked.
Today, Keith is joined by Tom Gamble of Gamble Family Vineyards—third-generation Napa farmer, winemaker, and one of the most grounded voices in California wine.
They talk about everything from prohibition-era Napa to why winemakers have a love/hate relationship with Shar-bone-oh; and why selling wine is harder than making it.

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It's a deep, funny, and refreshingly honest conversation about what it really takes to build a legacy in wine. 5 00:00:33,966.417 --> 00:00:35,16.417 Well, hello. 6 00:00:35,16.417 --> 00:00:35,646.417 Hello everyone. 7 00:00:35,646.417 --> 00:00:37,596.417 Welcome to, after Wine School. 8 00:00:37,846.417 --> 00:00:38,266.417 Today. 9 00:00:38,626.417 --> 00:00:47,986.417 I am actually here with Tom Gamble of Gamble Estate, just an amazing producer in, Napa Valley. 10 00:00:48,36.417 --> 00:00:49,176.417 Tom, it's good to have you here. 11 00:00:49,386.417 --> 00:00:49,806.417 Thank you. 12 00:00:50,16.417 --> 00:00:50,346.417 Good. 13 00:00:50,396.417 --> 00:00:57,586.417 so what have you been doing with your life anyways? Well, I've, third generation, Napa Valley Farmer. 14 00:00:57,686.417 --> 00:01:00,506.417 I still live, just over a mile from where I grew up. 15 00:01:00,536.417 --> 00:01:07,916.417 My mom still lives, in Oakville, and so I guess you could say I haven't gone far in my life if I still live next to my mother. 16 00:01:08,546.417 --> 00:01:11,396.417 You're a third generation farmer, which means right. 17 00:01:12,71.417 --> 00:01:20,21.417 I'm assuming that means your, your, your whole, your family's been growing grapes for, for at least, what, 50 years? yes and no. 18 00:01:20,21.417 --> 00:01:28,251.417 The, and the, the, the no part of it is when my grandfather came to Napa in 1916, prohibition was already on the horizon. 19 00:01:28,311.417 --> 00:01:28,431.417 Oh. 20 00:01:28,791.417 --> 00:01:40,561.417 So, and as a recent graduate of, uc Davis, he wanted to, probably not make a career in wine, seeing how it, it was going. 21 00:01:40,561.417 --> 00:01:50,771.417 And so he, he, came to Napa, and he had many different crops and he grazed a lot of livestock as oh, that's really interesting. 22 00:01:50,831.417 --> 00:01:51,131.417 Yeah. 23 00:01:51,191.417 --> 00:01:55,501.417 Because at that time, like, let's let everyone know what was the, you know, at that stage when. 24 00:01:55,876.417 --> 00:01:57,556.417 Prohibition was descending. 25 00:01:58,196.417 --> 00:02:10,891.417 what was the primary crops being grown in Napa? Well, there were certainly, wine grapes and there had been an explosion in quality and kind of the first, sense that Napa could be great. 26 00:02:10,941.417 --> 00:02:18,221.417 going all the way back to, I think it was 1888 in the Paris World Fair and so anyway, there was this reputation. 27 00:02:18,221.417 --> 00:02:26,501.417 My wife's family was in part of the wine, that wine revolution, and then it all fell apart, Prohibition, but there were other crops. 28 00:02:26,751.417 --> 00:02:30,111.417 There were orchard crops, there were hay crops, there was dairy, there was beef. 29 00:02:30,551.417 --> 00:02:33,721.417 the wine industry compared to now was very small. 30 00:02:34,51.417 --> 00:02:44,241.417 But all those, stone buildings, that are still around like far ante and the Culinary Institute, they were built during, that first heyday of Napa wine. 31 00:02:44,911.417 --> 00:02:45,601.417 I know it. 32 00:02:46,531.417 --> 00:02:47,851.417 It's such a different place now. 33 00:02:47,851.417 --> 00:02:55,561.417 One of my favorite things is actually looking at those old pictures of, Napa, Before prohibition, or even afterwards, even up into the forties and fifties and sixties. 34 00:02:55,591.417 --> 00:02:58,261.417 it was a hard scrabble after prohibition. 35 00:02:58,261.417 --> 00:02:59,881.417 'cause you had to produce something else. 36 00:03:00,301.417 --> 00:03:13,131.417 a few still grew grapes and sold it to the East Coast, but for the most part, after prohibition, the taste for fine wine was gone for the most it had been replaced probably for a taste, for a bathtub gin. 37 00:03:15,51.417 --> 00:03:15,291.417 Yeah. 38 00:03:16,71.417 --> 00:03:17,661.417 And the speakeasy era. 39 00:03:17,721.417 --> 00:03:17,871.417 Yeah. 40 00:03:18,141.417 --> 00:03:25,691.417 But then I think that World War II exposed a lot of gis, to, the fine wines of Europe. 41 00:03:26,141.417 --> 00:03:32,701.417 and as soon as prohibition was over, which was before World War ii, The Mondavis moved into the Napa Valley, full-time. 42 00:03:32,701.417 --> 00:03:39,971.417 And, it was, like you said, a hard scrabble and it was just continual building and getting the word out and improving. 43 00:03:39,971.417 --> 00:03:42,971.417 And there was Lee Stewart who was probably the winemakers. 44 00:03:42,971.417 --> 00:03:52,351.417 Winemakers and Che and Louie, and Martin Martini all trying, and others trying to put, Napa, back on the map, which is interesting. 45 00:03:52,381.417 --> 00:03:55,886.417 'cause like I knew your family had been around for a long time. 46 00:03:56,216.417 --> 00:04:03,886.417 But the interesting thing is, unlike Mondavi or Tele Chaff or any of these other, y'all were grinders. 47 00:04:03,886.417 --> 00:04:07,626.417 Like you guys were just there, growing, working farmers, It's interesting. 48 00:04:07,626.417 --> 00:04:09,876.417 I did not know that your grandfather was a Davis grad. 49 00:04:09,996.417 --> 00:04:10,746.417 Yeah, yeah. 50 00:04:10,746.417 --> 00:04:12,636.417 He graduat That is, that is crazy. 51 00:04:12,636.417 --> 00:04:19,446.417 Like, so his idea originally was probably, was it originally viticulture, but by he graduated, it's like he looked around, like there's just no way. 52 00:04:19,746.417 --> 00:04:23,736.417 No, it was a little, he had, he got a degree in agricultural engineering. 53 00:04:23,766.417 --> 00:04:24,486.417 Oh, okay. 54 00:04:24,546.417 --> 00:04:36,146.417 I, I've given some of his textbooks to, a nephew and they taught you really practical things like how to drill the proper angle of a hole for a stick of dynamite into a tree trunk to blow it outta the. 55 00:04:37,436.417 --> 00:04:39,336.417 You know? Hey, no, it is practical. 56 00:04:39,336.417 --> 00:04:44,336.417 It just, you know, if you did that Napa now, I mean you would have like so many committees, you know? Oh yeah. 57 00:04:44,336.417 --> 00:04:48,636.417 A lot of sternly written, letters, to you And you might be taken away in bracelets. 58 00:04:48,686.417 --> 00:04:51,526.417 but he actually followed my, great. 59 00:04:51,966.417 --> 00:05:05,466.417 Uncle, his older brother, who was a, and that's how he came to Napa, and his older brother had actually graduated with a mining degree about 10 years earlier from, a brand new school called Stanford. 60 00:05:05,976.417 --> 00:05:07,556.417 What, what is Oh, that's right. 61 00:05:07,556.417 --> 00:05:08,756.417 That's the MIT knockoff. 62 00:05:08,806.417 --> 00:05:08,986.417 Yeah. 63 00:05:08,986.417 --> 00:05:15,436.417 I don't think they offer mining anymore, but in the northern edge of Napa Valley, Mount St. 64 00:05:15,436.417 --> 00:05:25,166.417 Helena, north of Calistoga, all the way eastward to the eastern edge of Napa County, there is a mineral trend Of C bar. 65 00:05:25,606.417 --> 00:05:30,226.417 you heat ci bar up and it becomes Quicksilver as it's commonly known or Mercury. 66 00:05:31,486.417 --> 00:05:31,516.417 Oh. 67 00:05:31,866.417 --> 00:05:36,306.417 and if you've ever read Silverado Squatters by Robert Lewis Stevenson. 68 00:05:36,386.417 --> 00:05:41,576.417 Which he wrote when he was honeymooning in a minor shack on top of Mount St. 69 00:05:41,576.417 --> 00:05:41,876.417 Helena. 70 00:05:42,116.417 --> 00:05:44,6.417 She must have been a very hardy woman. 71 00:05:44,136.417 --> 00:05:44,616.417 yeah. 72 00:05:44,826.417 --> 00:05:49,696.417 Or very forgiving I could imagine proposing that idea and, not, and not Not really. 73 00:05:49,696.417 --> 00:05:50,386.417 So not really. 74 00:05:51,311.417 --> 00:05:55,401.417 my great uncle, bought out some, old claims and started mining there. 75 00:05:55,401.417 --> 00:06:02,751.417 But when you have a hole in the ground, you have lots of grassland around it, and he needed his younger brother to, graze it. 76 00:06:02,911.417 --> 00:06:13,881.417 And so that's how he got his business started and, was, grazing and reducing, the fire dangers around, the acreage that, my great uncle, purchased. 77 00:06:13,931.417 --> 00:06:15,491.417 and then they bought and sold land. 78 00:06:15,591.417 --> 00:06:19,311.417 you know, some was on the courthouse steps back in the great. 79 00:06:19,601.417 --> 00:06:24,981.417 Napa was in a depression before the Great Depression because of the wine Prohibition. 80 00:06:25,111.417 --> 00:06:26,641.417 And there was a lot of bootlegging going on. 81 00:06:26,641.417 --> 00:06:28,141.417 Even the sheriff went to jail. 82 00:06:28,441.417 --> 00:06:29,456.417 'cause he was bootlegging. 83 00:06:29,456.417 --> 00:06:29,656.417 Fantastic. 84 00:06:29,661.417 --> 00:06:29,791.417 Yep. 85 00:06:29,881.417 --> 00:06:34,606.417 Hey, that is, it's good to know for everyone to understand the hidden history of Napa. 86 00:06:34,936.417 --> 00:06:36,946.417 'cause what it is today, people have no idea. 87 00:06:37,36.417 --> 00:06:39,136.417 No idea what it was even in the 70. 88 00:06:39,506.417 --> 00:06:46,526.417 'cause you know, when I showed up in the nineties, it was already like, it was, the sparkle was already there and it seemed like it had been there forever. 89 00:06:46,526.417 --> 00:06:53,16.417 But those of us in the industry know that things are cyclical But your family have been growing, you know, like you are. 90 00:06:53,766.417 --> 00:07:05,276.417 When did you, start planting vineyards? So, my, my grandfather had two acres of petite SRA that were planted in the forties and in Oakville. 91 00:07:05,586.417 --> 00:07:07,986.417 I'm not sure why he planted those 'cause that's all he did. 92 00:07:07,986.417 --> 00:07:11,276.417 And he had hundreds of acres, and, there in Oakville. 93 00:07:11,556.417 --> 00:07:14,226.417 but he did, maybe it was home brew. 94 00:07:14,226.417 --> 00:07:17,736.417 Maybe he had a friend or somebody who just wanted to make a little petite straw. 95 00:07:18,216.417 --> 00:07:19,516.417 But, I started making. 96 00:07:20,26.417 --> 00:07:24,991.417 Home Wine, garage wine out of that with, mark Obert in the eighties. 97 00:07:24,996.417 --> 00:07:27,146.417 so like, just hanging out, oh, I got these vines. 98 00:07:27,146.417 --> 00:07:27,656.417 So, yeah. 99 00:07:27,716.417 --> 00:07:32,1.417 Well it was rocket fuel, but Oh wow. 100 00:07:32,31.417 --> 00:07:32,521.417 Alright. 101 00:07:33,111.417 --> 00:07:34,81.417 With Petit Syrah. 102 00:07:34,86.417 --> 00:07:35,366.417 Really? That's not, yeah. 103 00:07:35,366.417 --> 00:07:36,446.417 And that you didn't give up. 104 00:07:36,536.417 --> 00:07:37,496.417 No, we didn't. 105 00:07:37,546.417 --> 00:07:38,536.417 I didn't give up. 106 00:07:38,566.417 --> 00:07:49,56.417 And of course, mark has gone on to, his endeavors and great heights and, I stayed on the farming side for a long time before I added, the wine making. 107 00:07:49,426.417 --> 00:07:51,676.417 there's a lot of, most people, like when, when. 108 00:07:52,276.417 --> 00:07:53,326.417 Teaching about wine. 109 00:07:53,326.417 --> 00:08:00,196.417 One of the things people don't realize, especially in California, that most wineries, most labels are just labels. 110 00:08:00,196.417 --> 00:08:03,746.417 And they're, they may not, they're sourcing grapes, right? And it's very rare. 111 00:08:03,746.417 --> 00:08:06,656.417 So these are two very distinctly different skill sets. 112 00:08:07,136.417 --> 00:08:08,306.417 viticulture and enology. 113 00:08:08,306.417 --> 00:08:09,236.417 These are not the same thing. 114 00:08:09,236.417 --> 00:08:13,76.417 Growing and making are very different, incredibly different. 115 00:08:13,176.417 --> 00:08:14,346.417 starting off as a grower. 116 00:08:16,101.417 --> 00:08:21,591.417 This means that you were, you really were, I assume have long-term contracts with, specific producers. 117 00:08:21,591.417 --> 00:08:27,711.417 'cause you're in Oakville, your vineyards are all in Oakville, I assume mostly now to camp and a little bit of sb. 118 00:08:27,741.417 --> 00:08:38,706.417 And do you see, are any that petit ro still I actually grow grapes in, Rutherford, Oakville, Mount Viter, those are my producing Red Appalachians. 119 00:08:38,756.417 --> 00:08:43,766.417 And then I have Ville, where I grow Sauvignon Blanc. 120 00:08:43,876.417 --> 00:08:48,616.417 And that Petite Serrah right now is all going to another good buddy, Bob Ali. 121 00:08:48,746.417 --> 00:08:49,436.417 in the ground. 122 00:08:49,676.417 --> 00:08:49,886.417 Yeah. 123 00:08:49,916.417 --> 00:08:51,56.417 For my dear friend. 124 00:08:51,146.417 --> 00:08:52,196.417 Oh, that's fantastic. 125 00:08:52,226.417 --> 00:08:53,186.417 Oh, that's amazing. 126 00:08:53,631.417 --> 00:09:02,705.417 No, it's hard to go wrong with his, his, no, he's, he's a practitioner and he's made it, it's really tough to be a niche producer of anything other than Red Bordeaux. 127 00:09:03,95.417 --> 00:09:03,155.417 Yeah. 128 00:09:03,485.417 --> 00:09:11,265.417 Everybody thought I was an idiot when I first, put Sauvignon Blanc in the ground and they thought I should do merlott, but I decided not to at that time. 129 00:09:11,445.417 --> 00:09:11,775.417 Yeah. 130 00:09:11,805.417 --> 00:09:14,975.417 And, it's turned out that, turned out to be a good decision. 131 00:09:15,95.417 --> 00:09:28,855.417 And so, like, can you, I assume you had long term contracts with a lot of different producers before you started, like anyone we know, is that things you can talk about or are those contracts I have my longest running contract. 132 00:09:29,875.417 --> 00:09:38,145.417 well, the longest contract has been with, it's been about 25 years, maybe 26 years, with, nickel and nickel. 133 00:09:38,195.417 --> 00:09:45,115.417 And, the CC Ranch in Rutherford is my wife's, property, along with a few of her siblings. 134 00:09:45,185.417 --> 00:09:49,225.417 And so there are others, in there as well. 135 00:09:49,225.417 --> 00:09:59,805.417 And then, Philippe Melka, one of the reasons that he is my consulting winemaker now is I have been selling him grapes for his various projects for about 25 years. 136 00:09:59,855.417 --> 00:10:03,95.417 Felipe is the rock star of wine making in Napa. 137 00:10:03,425.417 --> 00:10:08,255.417 He, in my mind, like he has touched base in a lot of different places in Napa. 138 00:10:08,565.417 --> 00:10:10,365.417 he does have that Midas touch. 139 00:10:10,605.417 --> 00:10:15,105.417 And when did he show up? Was it like 2000 and No, he, he came in the nineties. 140 00:10:15,165.417 --> 00:10:15,705.417 Oh, he came in nine. 141 00:10:15,735.417 --> 00:10:16,155.417 Okay. 142 00:10:16,245.417 --> 00:10:16,695.417 Alright. 143 00:10:16,695.417 --> 00:10:18,345.417 I guess we crossed paths at some point. 144 00:10:18,885.417 --> 00:10:19,245.417 Yeah. 145 00:10:19,695.417 --> 00:10:20,325.417 Oh, that's awesome. 146 00:10:20,325.417 --> 00:10:29,395.417 So how did that relationship start? Did you reach out to him? He, did he find you, how'd that happen? You know, that's a good question. 147 00:10:29,395.417 --> 00:10:30,445.417 That was a long time ago. 148 00:10:30,445.417 --> 00:10:30,595.417 Yeah. 149 00:10:30,595.417 --> 00:10:37,565.417 And I don't know, I think we knew each other in passing and, Napa Valley, especially up Valley is a very small community. 150 00:10:37,615.417 --> 00:10:38,455.417 Very still. 151 00:10:38,695.417 --> 00:10:44,405.417 and you're in the trade, in a small trade, you just get to know people from, here and there. 152 00:10:44,885.417 --> 00:10:48,785.417 And then the first time we started talking, I believe. 153 00:10:49,565.417 --> 00:10:53,785.417 Was for, Robin's Project, Robin Lale. 154 00:10:54,145.417 --> 00:10:58,345.417 And Oh, so he, they lale, oh my God, that really put him on the map. 155 00:10:58,375.417 --> 00:11:17,975.417 And then, so we had ign, Blanc and they needed Sauvignon Blanc and, and, the, Georgia Vineyard had not yet been converted, to Sauvignon Blanc, and so they needed it both for Georgia and the blueprint labeled, oh, and I still supply them for blueprint. 156 00:11:17,975.417 --> 00:11:20,255.417 So it's really long relationship. 157 00:11:20,645.417 --> 00:11:21,545.417 That's fantastic. 158 00:11:21,545.417 --> 00:11:27,465.417 just the sb just the sb right now, we have some very high quality blocks, coming, online. 159 00:11:27,465.417 --> 00:11:30,525.417 And so we're talking, about, this and that. 160 00:11:30,525.417 --> 00:11:31,875.417 We're always talking about stuff. 161 00:11:31,905.417 --> 00:11:32,445.417 Oh yeah. 162 00:11:32,535.417 --> 00:11:33,975.417 So you never know when something's going to. 163 00:11:34,420.417 --> 00:11:37,20.417 turn up and, they'll want some of that. 164 00:11:37,200.417 --> 00:11:37,860.417 Oh, that's fantastic. 165 00:11:37,860.417 --> 00:11:45,140.417 So, well then I actually, because the Lale blueprint as SA Blanc is something that I, I consistently show to students Yeah. 166 00:11:45,140.417 --> 00:11:47,660.417 Because one, it's available on the East Coast. 167 00:11:47,990.417 --> 00:11:48,410.417 Sure. 168 00:11:48,440.417 --> 00:12:07,280.417 And, as a, as that distinctive Napa textural of great textural interest 'cause SB can, you know, and 'cause all the controls and how it's always where you have like, that, that, that was that four MPP, like that very specific amount. 169 00:12:07,280.417 --> 00:12:11,270.417 'cause you get just the right amount of sunshine and you get those really exotic, really. 170 00:12:11,570.417 --> 00:12:17,310.417 Great flavors, but then also, philippe's, like that textural note of that lale Sure is crazy. 171 00:12:17,460.417 --> 00:12:21,780.417 So I've actually been showing, you know, your product for a long time now because Yeah, that's interesting. 172 00:12:21,780.417 --> 00:12:22,110.417 So yeah. 173 00:12:22,110.417 --> 00:12:22,890.417 Thank you for your support. 174 00:12:22,890.417 --> 00:12:23,340.417 Well, yay. 175 00:12:23,340.417 --> 00:12:24,270.417 I didn't even know it. 176 00:12:24,270.417 --> 00:12:24,510.417 No. 177 00:12:24,540.417 --> 00:12:35,911.417 'cause that was just one of those wines that's like, this works very well to show points I want to show about what Napa really is outside of the big over extractions, you know, and the, you know, the, the, yeah, sure. 178 00:12:36,0.417 --> 00:12:41,750.417 The, 'cause I, you know, I, I mean everyone loves the big monsters, but, you know, there's so much more to Napa. 179 00:12:41,800.417 --> 00:12:45,400.417 and Char Bonos, which is my, which which is the question, are you. 180 00:12:45,790.417 --> 00:12:49,870.417 One of those winemakers because I, I know I am, I, like, I pine for char bono. 181 00:12:49,870.417 --> 00:12:51,40.417 I wish it was more planted. 182 00:12:52,220.417 --> 00:12:56,320.417 I made char bono for several years and lost my shirt it was a very tough sale. 183 00:12:56,380.417 --> 00:12:57,430.417 I love the grape. 184 00:12:57,480.417 --> 00:13:03,380.417 I got reintroduced to it, in the early two thousands when I happened to be in Tampa and I went to Burns. 185 00:13:03,485.417 --> 00:13:05,930.417 And I said, oh, look at this. 186 00:13:05,930.417 --> 00:13:09,990.417 In the Ingle Nook 1970s era, char Bono. 187 00:13:09,990.417 --> 00:13:11,400.417 And I go, OMG. 188 00:13:11,455.417 --> 00:13:11,745.417 Yeah. 189 00:13:11,795.417 --> 00:13:12,825.417 I really like it. 190 00:13:12,825.417 --> 00:13:14,715.417 Napa Valley, so between. 191 00:13:15,710.417 --> 00:13:23,870.417 the stately ook winery that you see from the highway and the highway in Rutherford that used to have a big block of char bono in it. 192 00:13:23,870.417 --> 00:13:24,620.417 Yes, it did. 193 00:13:24,680.417 --> 00:13:28,242.417 And you know, maybe Francis will, replant it, but, to char bono. 194 00:13:28,300.417 --> 00:13:32,830.417 But there's only about 30, almost 40 acres in Napa. 195 00:13:32,890.417 --> 00:13:33,130.417 Yeah. 196 00:13:33,310.417 --> 00:13:38,830.417 And there's probably less than 80 acres in the entirety of the state. 197 00:13:38,980.417 --> 00:13:39,220.417 Yep. 198 00:13:39,280.417 --> 00:13:47,80.417 And most of the char bono now grown, is grown up in the warmer parts of the valley and the Calistoga, sub Appalachian. 199 00:13:47,350.417 --> 00:13:55,650.417 And so my buddy Peter Height, Suzette Turnbull, they have their own, char Bono label, named, shy Oak. 200 00:13:55,980.417 --> 00:13:56,760.417 Oh, yes. 201 00:13:56,760.417 --> 00:13:57,0.417 Yeah. 202 00:13:57,30.417 --> 00:13:57,630.417 that's them. 203 00:13:57,635.417 --> 00:13:58,710.417 That's them I've had there. 204 00:13:58,715.417 --> 00:14:01,475.417 so he, he's, he's a really good winemaker. 205 00:14:01,475.417 --> 00:14:03,575.417 And so for several years. 206 00:14:04,190.417 --> 00:14:06,800.417 We, we made sharp bono. 207 00:14:06,950.417 --> 00:14:08,30.417 So it's one of those. 208 00:14:08,120.417 --> 00:14:17,90.417 but it, it just was, I had to narrow my focus, again and focus on what I could make really well and, and get sold. 209 00:14:17,330.417 --> 00:14:18,830.417 And that's the problem. 210 00:14:18,830.417 --> 00:14:32,240.417 And that's the, with this business It is, isn't it though? 'cause we could look and I brought that up because I knew you were gonna be in one of the, you know, you know, 'cause you know you're a grower and you love Napa and love the history, like of course, you know, char bono and no one else. 211 00:14:32,570.417 --> 00:14:36,830.417 And here's the thing is you didn't get introduced to it there, you got introduced at Burn Steakhouse. 212 00:14:36,830.417 --> 00:14:37,850.417 I just make sure that, so people. 213 00:14:38,260.417 --> 00:14:38,770.417 Listening. 214 00:14:38,770.417 --> 00:14:43,870.417 No, that's a steakhouse that has the most insane back catalog of California wines. 215 00:14:44,380.417 --> 00:14:45,610.417 And it is in Florida. 216 00:14:45,610.417 --> 00:14:47,440.417 I've never been, actually it's in Tallahassee. 217 00:14:47,440.417 --> 00:14:49,90.417 Where is it? It's in Tampa. 218 00:14:49,125.417 --> 00:14:49,475.417 Tampa. 219 00:14:49,750.417 --> 00:14:50,290.417 Okay. 220 00:14:50,290.417 --> 00:14:52,150.417 And it could be changing now though. 221 00:14:52,150.417 --> 00:14:57,520.417 At one point the founders of Burns were some of the biggest buyer Napa wines. 222 00:14:57,520.417 --> 00:15:04,210.417 They actually had rail cars worth of wine delivered to their facility in Tampa. 223 00:15:04,210.417 --> 00:15:09,400.417 In fact, there's a rail car turnaround track thing in the middle of the street there. 224 00:15:09,480.417 --> 00:15:11,790.417 Isn't it? And that is 100%. 225 00:15:11,790.417 --> 00:15:13,560.417 When the first time I heard that, I was like, that can't be true. 226 00:15:13,640.417 --> 00:15:15,530.417 Yes, it is 100% true. 227 00:15:15,530.417 --> 00:15:19,200.417 They were a repository for the history, of things that don't exist. 228 00:15:19,200.417 --> 00:15:23,880.417 And I'm glad 'cause Charon and we hit on something else I want to just drill down on. 229 00:15:24,270.417 --> 00:15:25,560.417 'cause the industry is hard. 230 00:15:25,740.417 --> 00:15:28,830.417 And one of the things I sadly learned working at Havens was. 231 00:15:29,285.417 --> 00:15:32,885.417 I shared Mike's love of two things, Cabernet, Franc and Syrah. 232 00:15:32,985.417 --> 00:15:38,85.417 I love making them, I love the reductive elements of, of Syrah. 233 00:15:38,85.417 --> 00:15:43,775.417 I love Cobb Franc, and I love what, what you can do with, all those de degree days in Napa. 234 00:15:43,805.417 --> 00:15:47,435.417 I just, it's just texture and beautiful, and I absolutely love it. 235 00:15:47,735.417 --> 00:15:54,60.417 and it, and Mike went bankrupt making it, and that's a shorter version of the truth. 236 00:15:54,110.417 --> 00:16:00,180.417 but it was that thing that you learned really the hard lesson is that, yeah, as a grower, as a maker, it's hard to sell things. 237 00:16:00,580.417 --> 00:16:01,750.417 there's an absolute love. 238 00:16:01,750.417 --> 00:16:04,550.417 But then you also have to, temper that with what you can do. 239 00:16:05,60.417 --> 00:16:20,400.417 And that's brutal, because You've been growing for a long time, but one of the things I point out is that if you're new to the game, you are probably spending what, like a half a million dollars an acre just to get, you know, get yourself started up and you're outlays in costs. 240 00:16:20,430.417 --> 00:16:23,490.417 You're good luck if you actually, you're out of the red in 10 years. 241 00:16:23,490.417 --> 00:16:31,880.417 But it's a hard le, you know, you do have to 'cause margins are we, everyone thinks that we're just, you know, swimming in cash. 242 00:16:31,880.417 --> 00:16:34,910.417 But what we're really doing is we're, we're farmers. 243 00:16:35,180.417 --> 00:16:35,510.417 Yes. 244 00:16:35,590.417 --> 00:16:37,300.417 we're making agricultural product. 245 00:16:37,570.417 --> 00:16:39,820.417 And we're just very, very fortunate that I. 246 00:16:40,120.417 --> 00:16:44,380.417 You know, the people are willing to spend more on wine than they are on asparagus. 247 00:16:45,70.417 --> 00:16:45,430.417 Yeah. 248 00:16:45,430.417 --> 00:16:50,830.417 I'm not sure asparagus can be quite as romantic As wine, although I love asparagus. 249 00:16:50,980.417 --> 00:16:53,110.417 Could you imagine That would be, worst. 250 00:16:53,190.417 --> 00:16:55,440.417 worst Mother's Day, worst Valentine's Day ever. 251 00:16:56,130.417 --> 00:16:58,140.417 Also, asparagus wine, really not a thing. 252 00:16:58,260.417 --> 00:16:58,560.417 Yeah. 253 00:16:58,610.417 --> 00:17:01,50.417 you can make it though, because Yes. 254 00:17:01,350.417 --> 00:17:02,190.417 Oh no, it has sugar. 255 00:17:02,190.417 --> 00:17:03,590.417 It would That's, true. 256 00:17:03,690.417 --> 00:17:06,280.417 first job at, with, Maynard Aming. 257 00:17:06,430.417 --> 00:17:07,480.417 Oh, really? Yeah. 258 00:17:07,480.417 --> 00:17:08,770.417 I was a freshman. 259 00:17:08,770.417 --> 00:17:15,720.417 he was winding down his career, but he took me under his wing So the first thing I had to do was go and physically check. 260 00:17:16,455.417 --> 00:17:18,645.417 All the books in the library at Davis. 261 00:17:18,655.417 --> 00:17:24,495.417 and make sure that everything had been transferred over to microfiche that had to do with wine. 262 00:17:24,615.417 --> 00:17:25,185.417 Oh, wow. 263 00:17:25,315.417 --> 00:17:27,855.417 and there was like 30,000 volumes. 264 00:17:30,465.417 --> 00:17:37,580.417 I think I developed library dust allergies because some had not been touched, look at the checkout card, it was like 1958. 265 00:17:38,360.417 --> 00:17:38,420.417 Yeah. 266 00:17:38,420.417 --> 00:17:42,10.417 and microfiche was the hip and happening technology of the time. 267 00:17:42,40.417 --> 00:17:42,370.417 yeah. 268 00:17:42,400.417 --> 00:17:44,560.417 No, that was, that was the Wikipedia of its day. 269 00:17:44,620.417 --> 00:17:45,850.417 Oh, I, yeah, sadly. 270 00:17:45,850.417 --> 00:17:51,460.417 I sadly, I'm old enough to know that too, or Yeah, I know people. 271 00:17:51,520.417 --> 00:17:51,730.417 Yeah. 272 00:17:51,760.417 --> 00:17:58,530.417 Or just, I, I made a joke about the, The Dewey Decimal system and, and everyone in class just looked at me blankly. 273 00:17:59,100.417 --> 00:17:59,370.417 Yeah. 274 00:17:59,370.417 --> 00:18:00,660.417 Like, oh, nevermind. 275 00:18:00,750.417 --> 00:18:02,130.417 Yeah, I know, right? Oh my. 276 00:18:02,130.417 --> 00:18:12,970.417 So, and, and I wanna point out also that, you know, you live an hour, sorry, just a couple miles away from you're, vineyards next to your mom. 277 00:18:12,970.417 --> 00:18:24,760.417 you live in one of the most beautiful places in America with beautiful weather except for, the sometimes fog and sometimes rain, but it's, and yet here you are in, humid Philadelphia in New York. 278 00:18:25,220.417 --> 00:18:29,660.417 this is a trip that not just you, but pretty much every winemaker I know has to make. 279 00:18:29,960.417 --> 00:18:33,770.417 Yes, you have to make the pilgrimage to the East Coast. 280 00:18:34,40.417 --> 00:18:35,960.417 What most people don't understand is that. 281 00:18:36,440.417 --> 00:18:40,670.417 This is the economic center along with Texas of the wine industry. 282 00:18:41,60.417 --> 00:18:42,860.417 This is where all the money comes from. 283 00:18:42,920.417 --> 00:18:54,640.417 And in fact, one of my, I like to tell people when I'm teaching is a good friend of mine, is, Jonathan Newman, who the nod of recognition means you'd rec, he's the former PLCB chairman. 284 00:18:54,740.417 --> 00:18:59,180.417 The Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board who like was the main wine buyer. 285 00:18:59,210.417 --> 00:19:03,350.417 And Pennsylvania being it's a control state, is a massive buyer. 286 00:19:03,350.417 --> 00:19:08,650.417 So I just remember him, I ended up marrying his secretary's, daughter actually. 287 00:19:08,920.417 --> 00:19:12,100.417 And we've, we've known each other for a very long time, but. 288 00:19:12,850.417 --> 00:19:14,20.417 The power he had. 289 00:19:14,20.417 --> 00:19:15,370.417 People were very surprised. 290 00:19:15,490.417 --> 00:19:15,730.417 Oh yeah. 291 00:19:15,760.417 --> 00:19:18,220.417 That how much power that if he made a phone call. 292 00:19:18,250.417 --> 00:19:36,205.417 And to this day I'll like, Hey, if there's somebody who I want to go visit and they didn't answer my phone, it's like, Hey, John, I would you mind, give me the phone call for me? And it's immediate because I mean, the power of the purse here is just really, it's, it's hard to underestimate which is why you're here, because I'm assuming you, yeah. 293 00:19:36,205.417 --> 00:19:40,710.417 You're really here to represent and bring a very great brand. 294 00:19:40,710.417 --> 00:19:44,740.417 But that is completely unknown on the East coast, and that's one of the reason why we're talking. 295 00:19:45,40.417 --> 00:19:45,340.417 Yeah. 296 00:19:45,370.417 --> 00:19:46,210.417 that's correct. 297 00:19:46,570.417 --> 00:19:49,940.417 we're mostly a DTC brand, but I've always thought. 298 00:19:50,705.417 --> 00:19:54,755.417 You have to have at least a foot in the wholesale world. 299 00:19:54,995.417 --> 00:19:58,925.417 It's a way for people to discover your wine if it's in the right restaurant. 300 00:19:59,315.417 --> 00:20:06,985.417 And, you have an avid fan in the Psalms or in the right wine shop, which, that's a little harder here in the state. 301 00:20:07,55.417 --> 00:20:07,265.417 yeah. 302 00:20:07,695.417 --> 00:20:19,495.417 But the, and you know, just going, going back to PLCB, it is the single largest buyer of wine in, the United States, and I think the second largest in the country after one of the provinces in Canada. 303 00:20:19,555.417 --> 00:20:20,395.417 That's exactly right. 304 00:20:20,395.417 --> 00:20:25,930.417 I think that they're a little bit bigger, especially for, European wines, but for California wines, I think pa is still the largest. 305 00:20:25,930.417 --> 00:20:27,810.417 I may be wrong, Well, they're, they're massive. 306 00:20:27,840.417 --> 00:20:33,580.417 And, the other control states like New Hampshire, tag along so they can get a better rate. 307 00:20:33,985.417 --> 00:20:35,380.417 Yeah, yeah. 308 00:20:35,740.417 --> 00:20:39,160.417 'cause people wanna work, with the PLCB especially, the big guys. 309 00:20:39,460.417 --> 00:20:43,210.417 And, we're happy to work with 'em where it makes sense. 310 00:20:43,220.417 --> 00:20:51,565.417 No, we're, we're, we're having some discussions with some of the smaller brokers who will then clear with PLCB. 311 00:20:51,805.417 --> 00:20:53,845.417 And then the way the business works is the. 312 00:20:54,610.417 --> 00:20:57,370.417 They'll have more of a restaurant focus. 313 00:20:57,370.417 --> 00:20:59,770.417 Well, they have to have a restaurant focus. 314 00:20:59,890.417 --> 00:21:06,0.417 And, and then they'll introduce those wines into, you know, the fine wine, establishments. 315 00:21:06,0.417 --> 00:21:07,440.417 And maybe we get a few fans that way. 316 00:21:08,700.417 --> 00:21:26,760.417 And, and then you do that state by state, and all we are doing is following Robert Mondavi's, example of going on the road and evangelizing, the wonders of wine in general and specifically that of Napa wine in particular. 317 00:21:28,30.417 --> 00:21:28,360.417 is. 318 00:21:28,390.417 --> 00:21:30,700.417 And it's, it's such a, now a couple things. 319 00:21:30,700.417 --> 00:21:42,280.417 I'm gonna, so that people know some of the jargon we just drew, drew down, DTC, direct to consumer, the most important thing because wineries like yours, Tom, like gamble. 320 00:21:43,780.417 --> 00:21:46,570.417 It is well known that it's, it's the most profitable. 321 00:21:46,610.417 --> 00:21:50,620.417 when you go into the three tier system, it's hard because, every piece takes a cut. 322 00:21:50,810.417 --> 00:21:55,500.417 if you're selling directly to, wine buyers, that is how small wineries thrive. 323 00:21:55,900.417 --> 00:22:03,640.417 but it also diminishes your ability to be seen in the world because the only people who see you is the people who know you, and you have to expand further. 324 00:22:04,90.417 --> 00:22:08,50.417 So, yeah, like having, and this is all done by word of mouth. 325 00:22:08,320.417 --> 00:22:09,160.417 It's who you meet. 326 00:22:09,160.417 --> 00:22:16,930.417 Like, to be honest, right after we get off the phone, I'm gonna tell you who's one of my former students who's actually, one of the biggest, he runs one of the biggest restaurant groups in town. 327 00:22:16,930.417 --> 00:22:17,890.417 So I'm gonna give you his name. 328 00:22:17,890.417 --> 00:22:18,850.417 This is how this works. 329 00:22:18,850.417 --> 00:22:21,670.417 And like, Hey, did you talk to them? 'cause they'll put your wines on the list. 330 00:22:21,790.417 --> 00:22:24,450.417 So, but that's, I did not offer to pay him No. 331 00:22:24,500.417 --> 00:22:28,700.417 but this is just an example of how the industry works, is you have to meet people, you have to talk to them. 332 00:22:28,730.417 --> 00:22:28,820.417 Mm-hmm. 333 00:22:29,60.417 --> 00:22:30,470.417 In everything in a. 334 00:22:31,40.417 --> 00:22:36,860.417 Because every state has their own laws, every, you know, every area, you know, has their own values. 335 00:22:37,420.417 --> 00:22:42,340.417 Jersey is a very different marketplace, a dirty, awful marketplace. 336 00:22:42,370.417 --> 00:22:45,310.417 I, I have good friends who run own wine shops there. 337 00:22:45,560.417 --> 00:22:48,830.417 but it's hard, it's hard to be a distributor there, hard to be an importer there. 338 00:22:48,830.417 --> 00:22:52,640.417 Everyone competes, there's certain things that are actually everywhere else. 339 00:22:52,640.417 --> 00:22:54,410.417 They would be illegal or felonies. 340 00:22:54,440.417 --> 00:22:57,80.417 But in Jersey, it's just how you do business. 341 00:22:57,200.417 --> 00:22:57,980.417 It really is. 342 00:22:57,980.417 --> 00:23:01,220.417 The scratch system is like, oh, you get to pay people to carry your wines. 343 00:23:01,220.417 --> 00:23:02,330.417 That's amazing. 344 00:23:02,390.417 --> 00:23:03,530.417 It's, yeah. 345 00:23:03,530.417 --> 00:23:03,531.417 Yeah. 346 00:23:03,590.417 --> 00:23:08,60.417 The, the, it's, we made a deal with the devil to get out of prohibition. 347 00:23:08,60.417 --> 00:23:09,50.417 The wine industry did. 348 00:23:09,50.417 --> 00:23:09,140.417 Yes. 349 00:23:09,140.417 --> 00:23:11,90.417 And I guess the booze business in general. 350 00:23:11,540.417 --> 00:23:22,150.417 And that was that we said basically, with, it was the 19th and it was the, that got us amendment that got us in and the 21st that got us out. 351 00:23:23,320.417 --> 00:23:26,170.417 And so the 21st said that. 352 00:23:26,740.417 --> 00:23:31,710.417 W we did, the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution didn't, apply. 353 00:23:31,870.417 --> 00:23:35,600.417 And every jurisdiction, could have its own rules. 354 00:23:35,960.417 --> 00:23:43,790.417 And, and so I joke now that I, I, I do export to 50 different countries called the United States. 355 00:23:44,180.417 --> 00:23:44,270.417 Right. 356 00:23:44,570.417 --> 00:23:45,470.417 That's, it's no joke. 357 00:23:45,470.417 --> 00:23:46,490.417 It's insane. 358 00:23:46,490.417 --> 00:23:47,30.417 It's hard. 359 00:23:47,30.417 --> 00:23:47,830.417 And you have to. 360 00:23:48,640.417 --> 00:23:54,910.417 Have deep knowledge of, contract law and import export law, or you have to have a general disregard for the law. 361 00:23:55,100.417 --> 00:23:56,400.417 I've known both people Yeah. 362 00:23:56,445.417 --> 00:23:57,795.417 Do all, don't do that. 363 00:23:57,795.417 --> 00:24:03,795.417 I, we were like a month late in paying some, our annual license to the state of Missouri. 364 00:24:03,825.417 --> 00:24:04,35.417 Oh yeah. 365 00:24:04,275.417 --> 00:24:05,715.417 And that was in 2020. 366 00:24:05,775.417 --> 00:24:05,955.417 Yep. 367 00:24:06,165.417 --> 00:24:11,175.417 And some wine arrived on their dock and we had an expired license. 368 00:24:11,205.417 --> 00:24:13,70.417 and it's 2020, so it's covid. 369 00:24:13,70.417 --> 00:24:19,200.417 So I had to go to Zoom court and, they saw that, it was just an honest mistake. 370 00:24:19,200.417 --> 00:24:21,600.417 They slapped my wrist and said, send us 500 bucks. 371 00:24:21,680.417 --> 00:24:22,30.417 Right. 372 00:24:22,30.417 --> 00:24:23,195.417 And don't do it again. 373 00:24:23,615.417 --> 00:24:29,105.417 to fully support the United States, you need more than 100 licenses. 374 00:24:29,480.417 --> 00:24:37,610.417 You need a wholesale license, at least one wholesale license for a state, and then if they allow their direct to consumer business. 375 00:24:37,760.417 --> 00:24:42,590.417 You have to have, a direct to consumer, license in some states. 376 00:24:43,280.417 --> 00:24:47,180.417 say like Tennessee, they have three or four different zones. 377 00:24:47,180.417 --> 00:24:51,200.417 So if you want to cover the whole state, you have to have a license in each one of those zones. 378 00:24:51,250.417 --> 00:24:57,190.417 So you learn to be very selective about what you can do and hire there. 379 00:24:57,320.417 --> 00:25:02,110.417 there are service providers that'll keep you on the straight and narrow And handle all of that. 380 00:25:02,160.417 --> 00:25:07,770.417 And then, you know, I have an assistant that, pulls her hair out just trying to keep track of everything. 381 00:25:07,820.417 --> 00:25:10,790.417 Compliance is one of the hardest things to deal with. 382 00:25:10,790.417 --> 00:25:13,220.417 This is just, the small part of getting things to where they need to go. 383 00:25:13,220.417 --> 00:25:16,550.417 It's not the compliance That we have to deal with on for everything else. 384 00:25:17,240.417 --> 00:25:24,830.417 This is a hard, it's because it's hard, like people don't realize, At one point I thought I knew, you know, I was like, okay, I've dealt with wine making compliance. 385 00:25:24,830.417 --> 00:25:29,570.417 I was like, alright, we have our studios in Maine National Wine schools offices are in Vermont and Maine. 386 00:25:29,570.417 --> 00:25:30,350.417 So we have one there. 387 00:25:30,350.417 --> 00:25:32,840.417 And I get to stay in Maine for like my summer, which is awesome. 388 00:25:32,870.417 --> 00:25:33,440.417 Oh wow. 389 00:25:33,500.417 --> 00:25:35,60.417 Oh, it's fantastic. 390 00:25:35,150.417 --> 00:25:44,280.417 It's, it's the, having left California, I couldn't figure out how to have the same kind of lifestyle like IE where it's always like 73 degrees. 391 00:25:44,460.417 --> 00:25:48,390.417 So I figured I, I spent half my life in Philly than the other half in Maine. 392 00:25:48,480.417 --> 00:25:51,60.417 And that kind of, kind of makes it Okay. 393 00:25:51,60.417 --> 00:25:51,750.417 That's pretty sweet. 394 00:25:51,750.417 --> 00:25:53,40.417 It's pretty, it's really sweet. 395 00:25:53,40.417 --> 00:25:53,760.417 It's really sweet. 396 00:25:53,970.417 --> 00:25:57,510.417 But also it's, yeah, you want to talk about a weird, wine loss. 397 00:25:57,510.417 --> 00:26:05,950.417 Like it's easier to buy, THC in any kind of marijuana, in any way you want it, in any shop than it is to buy a bottle of wine. 398 00:26:06,320.417 --> 00:26:12,530.417 it is an incredibly, 'cause they were such a larger way, they were the, one of the first, pro prohibition, states. 399 00:26:12,690.417 --> 00:26:15,720.417 and they've maintained that attitude in a very bizarre way. 400 00:26:16,30.417 --> 00:26:23,210.417 so yeah, it's just, it's a, it's a mind bendingly hard, Thing to get your head around, but also just largely, I was thinking about, oh, I've gotta start a whiskey. 401 00:26:23,260.417 --> 00:26:26,590.417 'cause when students make really terrible wine, I have to have somewhere to put it. 402 00:26:27,30.417 --> 00:26:28,260.417 so that's where it ends up going. 403 00:26:28,260.417 --> 00:26:35,130.417 And if you see barrels hanging around in the school, there a little whiskey projects, but I realize it was even, it was even more paperwork. 404 00:26:35,130.417 --> 00:26:36,445.417 And I'm like, I couldn't handle enough. 405 00:26:36,475.417 --> 00:26:40,375.417 I couldn't handle the paperwork, wine making, nevermind producing whiskey. 406 00:26:40,375.417 --> 00:26:42,145.417 So that dream just died. 407 00:26:42,425.417 --> 00:26:47,835.417 I have a lot of whiskey that I have nothing to do with, So there's no way in my life I'll ever be able to drink 40 gallons of whiskey. 408 00:26:49,605.417 --> 00:26:50,715.417 Well, it'd be a short life. 409 00:26:50,745.417 --> 00:26:51,615.417 Exactly. 410 00:26:51,805.417 --> 00:26:52,495.417 Renal failure. 411 00:26:52,495.417 --> 00:26:53,125.417 Here I come. 412 00:26:53,435.417 --> 00:26:57,545.417 so many people who listen are in the industry, especially on the East coast. 413 00:26:57,545.417 --> 00:27:00,455.417 some of our biggest listen are winemakers, especially on the East coast. 414 00:27:00,675.417 --> 00:27:01,545.417 very hard. 415 00:27:01,665.417 --> 00:27:01,725.417 Yeah. 416 00:27:01,785.417 --> 00:27:10,395.417 Just largely that it's, I'm always impressed because I, we have a couple of, winemakers, from, you know, from Davis who've actually ended up on this coast. 417 00:27:10,575.417 --> 00:27:18,216.417 We'd like to chat, like how much harder it is, like, like, you know, every inch is a fight, largely due to humidity and Sure. 418 00:27:18,545.417 --> 00:27:21,305.417 And just generally, and, and property values are high. 419 00:27:21,305.417 --> 00:27:26,735.417 But I would love to get into, I'd love to try your wines actually, to be honest. 420 00:27:26,765.417 --> 00:27:28,795.417 I mean, I know, because we have 'em here. 421 00:27:28,795.417 --> 00:27:31,765.417 And is there anything in particular? Well, let's talk Oh, that's fantastic. 422 00:27:31,805.417 --> 00:27:35,15.417 let's try, the ville, Sauvignon Blanc. 423 00:27:35,105.417 --> 00:27:35,675.417 Oh, yeah. 424 00:27:35,725.417 --> 00:27:39,820.417 the first wine I ever made commercially was Sauvignon Blanc. 425 00:27:39,850.417 --> 00:27:46,720.417 I had fallen in love with it on a couple trips to Europe, during and after, school at Davis. 426 00:27:47,80.417 --> 00:27:56,810.417 I didn't like what we were doing in California, with Sauvignon Blanc, and I didn't appreciate how good it could be until I tasted Lairs and white Bordeaux. 427 00:27:57,500.417 --> 00:28:12,365.417 Oh, and what white Bordeaux, hit you first? Was it the, sacks or the, am trying to remember, I do not remember at this point my first, tasting, what was it? The textural issues, like what was it? It was textural. 428 00:28:12,365.417 --> 00:28:21,75.417 It was, I think something about the elegance of the mid palate and, and just, and they were not brand new wines either that I was trying. 429 00:28:21,345.417 --> 00:28:27,765.417 It showed how well they could age, and they, I think they were, more, so subtle on the palate. 430 00:28:27,975.417 --> 00:28:36,195.417 This is, this wine is, you know, it's ca they're California grapes, but this one, this particular one is more inspired by the loar. 431 00:28:36,525.417 --> 00:28:50,255.417 and so, I have our reserve here, but, I don't know if we have time to try that side by side, but that is probably more in a white bordeaux, style and 18 months age before it goes into the bottle. 432 00:28:50,705.417 --> 00:28:54,665.417 that's why this is a 24 and this is a 23. 433 00:28:54,725.417 --> 00:28:55,265.417 Okay. 434 00:28:55,325.417 --> 00:28:55,835.417 Absolutely. 435 00:28:56,165.417 --> 00:28:57,305.417 Well, I gotta say this. 436 00:28:57,395.417 --> 00:29:15,185.417 So first off, the varietal fingerprints of like, that, that pyrazine green peppers way low, it's actually really like you're bringing up the, the really exotic, the really exotic mango that lechy, which is awesome. 437 00:29:15,575.417 --> 00:29:16,25.417 And. 438 00:29:16,350.417 --> 00:29:19,410.417 if anyone doesn't know what leche smell like, you really need to get a can of leeches. 439 00:29:19,465.417 --> 00:29:19,915.417 And eat them. 440 00:29:19,945.417 --> 00:29:22,555.417 Like, that's like, they sit there in the syrup and just go, yum, yum. 441 00:29:22,795.417 --> 00:29:23,365.417 So, yeah. 442 00:29:23,415.417 --> 00:29:24,645.417 misophonia warning folks. 443 00:29:24,645.417 --> 00:29:25,635.417 I'm gonna take a sip of this. 444 00:29:26,635.417 --> 00:29:26,815.417 Hmm. 445 00:29:27,895.417 --> 00:29:29,995.417 Oh, okay. 446 00:29:30,625.417 --> 00:29:33,895.417 Well, wow. 447 00:29:34,75.417 --> 00:29:36,775.417 The, skin contact, no skin contact. 448 00:29:36,775.417 --> 00:29:36,776.417 Okay. 449 00:29:36,880.417 --> 00:29:37,350.417 great texture. 450 00:29:38,85.417 --> 00:29:41,515.417 it's whole cluster pressed and then, we go to, a barrel. 451 00:29:41,545.417 --> 00:29:47,275.417 we cold settle and then we go into, barrels, 30, 40% new. 452 00:29:47,635.417 --> 00:29:48,115.417 Wow. 453 00:29:48,215.417 --> 00:29:50,805.417 Right now we're all European, oak on it. 454 00:29:50,855.417 --> 00:29:55,555.417 it over winters and then, we get it into bottles if, the bottles arrive on time. 455 00:29:56,35.417 --> 00:29:57,655.417 Post covid nightmares. 456 00:29:57,715.417 --> 00:30:01,435.417 Supply chain Oh, so first off, tasting notes so folks know what this tastes like. 457 00:30:01,435.417 --> 00:30:03,175.417 So this is, this is, I agree. 458 00:30:03,175.417 --> 00:30:10,645.417 Like saying this is closer to like, fume with that really exotic, fruit, but then you, the texture is. 459 00:30:10,975.417 --> 00:30:11,935.417 Really remarkable. 460 00:30:11,965.417 --> 00:30:17,695.417 'cause it finish, it starts, it hits the exotic fruit, but then it goes to this nice pithiness and a little bit of structure. 461 00:30:17,695.417 --> 00:30:25,375.417 I thought I was thinking skin because there's just a touch of like, of like there's a little bit, I think it's actually your, oak tenons there coming in just a little bit. 462 00:30:25,375.417 --> 00:30:35,125.417 Building out that, that structure and then with this really nice, more of a, it's a richer finish and the oak is not really coming through that much, which I love. 463 00:30:35,125.417 --> 00:30:42,115.417 It's like forcing the fruit up and then like, it's just a like, almost a like savory backend with the, with the oak. 464 00:30:42,115.417 --> 00:30:44,725.417 It's really nice and of course, yeah. 465 00:30:44,785.417 --> 00:30:48,595.417 and you're distinctly not, calling it fu makes, it's not, there's no malo here. 466 00:30:48,595.417 --> 00:30:57,235.417 It is just, and are you aging at like at a low temp because it really feels like nice and just brilliant, the acid that just rolls through. 467 00:30:57,235.417 --> 00:31:00,155.417 But then, oh yeah, I want this with, so, Huh. 468 00:31:00,785.417 --> 00:31:01,775.417 This is what I want. 469 00:31:01,895.417 --> 00:31:11,475.417 And Tom, if you can do this for me, I really appreciate it, but I want, diver scalps, pan-seared in duck fat with just a little bit of fo on top of that, just melted right on top of that. 470 00:31:11,835.417 --> 00:31:18,345.417 So that's why I want, 'cause this actually has the, has the structure and balance that cut through it, but also like, I would like to see that play it. 471 00:31:18,855.417 --> 00:31:19,635.417 The, yeah. 472 00:31:19,685.417 --> 00:31:28,290.417 I've always gone for, mouthfeel and, you know, part, you know, the wine making part of it is don't mess up what I do in the vineyard. 473 00:31:29,445.417 --> 00:31:36,855.417 and I do have a lot of experience now with growing Sauvignon blanc grapes, and I'm also a clone fanatic in everything I do. 474 00:31:36,855.417 --> 00:31:39,225.417 And there's multiple clones in here. 475 00:31:39,275.417 --> 00:31:54,535.417 there's some that, Probably go back, came over from France in the 19th century, probably came through the Wente vineyard that ended up, there's one that then was a Phil free selection, and he was the VP of vineyards over at Mondavi, and he selected some vines out of toon. 476 00:31:55,375.417 --> 00:31:56,35.417 Oh, yep. 477 00:31:56,395.417 --> 00:31:57,595.417 That goes in here. 478 00:31:57,595.417 --> 00:32:00,685.417 And that those grapes are very textural. 479 00:32:00,925.417 --> 00:32:07,305.417 And, then there's, some lair derived clones that did come from French nurseries. 480 00:32:07,635.417 --> 00:32:11,165.417 And there's also some bordeaux, derived clones. 481 00:32:11,165.417 --> 00:32:14,175.417 And those two regions, evolve separately. 482 00:32:14,545.417 --> 00:32:17,805.417 and so, like MUS gay, you've heard of that. 483 00:32:17,835.417 --> 00:32:20,85.417 so on musca it, it, it. 484 00:32:20,85.417 --> 00:32:23,160.417 It, it, evolved in in the Lair Valley. 485 00:32:23,160.417 --> 00:32:23,730.417 Absolutely, yes. 486 00:32:23,730.417 --> 00:32:35,630.417 And we can overdo it in California because I think they evolved, the farmers in the old days probably evolved it because, to, to pick a, a, a clone where the acids dropped faster. 487 00:32:35,810.417 --> 00:32:36,980.417 'cause it's cooler up there. 488 00:32:37,10.417 --> 00:32:37,755.417 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 489 00:32:38,60.417 --> 00:32:45,440.417 And then you can, if you're not careful, all of a sudden you're on, you're, you're, you're into pineapple territory and, and, and, yeah. 490 00:32:45,440.417 --> 00:32:46,370.417 Too much mango. 491 00:32:46,430.417 --> 00:32:48,390.417 I think it was Zd who used to do that. 492 00:32:48,390.417 --> 00:32:51,270.417 Like, it was all like that, that one colon, it was like really overpowering. 493 00:32:51,270.417 --> 00:32:53,920.417 I used to, back in the day, worked with them. 494 00:32:54,130.417 --> 00:33:03,170.417 So yeah, we pick, different clones and have multiple harvest dates to ensure that in, a very cool Appalachian, relatively speaking. 495 00:33:03,200.417 --> 00:33:05,240.417 where I farm is between two rivers. 496 00:33:05,450.417 --> 00:33:13,970.417 It's called River Bound Vineyard and fog lays in there 'cause it's a lower elevation, stays a little cooler than the neighboring surroundings. 497 00:33:13,970.417 --> 00:33:16,490.417 that helps preserve acidity. 498 00:33:16,540.417 --> 00:33:22,210.417 the early picks preserve acidity and we've learned which ones we like to pick 'cause they still have some flavor. 499 00:33:22,430.417 --> 00:33:25,660.417 some of the grapes, that, maintain acidity longer. 500 00:33:25,660.417 --> 00:33:26,560.417 We pick those later. 501 00:33:26,670.417 --> 00:33:28,680.417 I do have a question for you talking about clones. 502 00:33:28,770.417 --> 00:33:29,10.417 Yeah. 503 00:33:29,430.417 --> 00:33:33,120.417 a couple years ago I came across the weirdest Sauvignon clone self gre. 504 00:33:33,820.417 --> 00:33:34,60.417 yeah. 505 00:33:34,240.417 --> 00:33:35,50.417 Have you like. 506 00:33:35,680.417 --> 00:33:37,420.417 That just blew, that was so weird. 507 00:33:37,420.417 --> 00:33:41,500.417 Like that, that almost like, almost like a muscat kind of quality to that. 508 00:33:41,505.417 --> 00:33:48,104.417 Do you, is any of that growing in, like, do you know, is anyone growing that in Cali or, there, there's some being grown in Napa Valley. 509 00:33:48,104.417 --> 00:33:50,914.417 I mean, I think it's one or two vineyards Are doing it. 510 00:33:50,914.417 --> 00:33:59,14.417 And, but you're not though? No, I am not the, and the Sauvignon gr I know are really old vines now, probably planted in the fifties. 511 00:33:59,74.417 --> 00:34:00,394.417 Oh yeah. 512 00:34:00,394.417 --> 00:34:03,784.417 And, there's, I don't want to say the name of the grower 'cause I could be wrong. 513 00:34:03,814.417 --> 00:34:04,54.417 Yeah. 514 00:34:04,54.417 --> 00:34:09,454.417 But I'm pretty sure I used to have a custom client who would bring it in from that vineyard. 515 00:34:09,484.417 --> 00:34:09,904.417 Oh. 516 00:34:09,964.417 --> 00:34:14,224.417 And he did this white blend and he would do, they would pick it all in one day. 517 00:34:14,224.417 --> 00:34:16,624.417 The Sauvignon Green, the Pinot Mnet. 518 00:34:16,924.417 --> 00:34:18,194.417 Oh God Oh my. 519 00:34:18,584.417 --> 00:34:21,794.417 That's a weird, and then they And he made this wonderful wine. 520 00:34:21,884.417 --> 00:34:22,34.417 Yeah. 521 00:34:22,34.417 --> 00:34:25,274.417 He made it for a few years and then it was one of those things he just couldn't sell. 522 00:34:25,274.417 --> 00:34:26,984.417 It's just heartbreaking heartbreak. 523 00:34:27,134.417 --> 00:34:28,724.417 And this is, this is always a refrain. 524 00:34:28,724.417 --> 00:34:33,584.417 There's always wines that industry loves, but you just can't sell. 525 00:34:33,794.417 --> 00:34:33,974.417 Yeah. 526 00:34:34,34.417 --> 00:34:36,734.417 And which is, you know, which is brutally hard. 527 00:34:36,734.417 --> 00:34:47,124.417 Although I do have one of my, one of my students, I'm so proud of her, Jenny Schultz, she actually, she and her partner, Started, Julie Lodge, ugly pretty, and yeah. 528 00:34:47,344.417 --> 00:34:53,654.417 fortunately because she's, she is from this east coast and, but she started to do, they're doing some really weird awesome things. 529 00:34:53,654.417 --> 00:35:03,784.417 Some of those old scattershot vineyards and, but then again, you know, they're always gonna be, they're never gonna be famous because of that, you know? Well, yeah. 530 00:35:04,144.417 --> 00:35:04,894.417 They're anarchists. 531 00:35:04,894.417 --> 00:35:08,194.417 They're like in the Narco bookstore, you know, of wine. 532 00:35:08,274.417 --> 00:35:10,614.417 if it's an old vineyard and it's a weird grape, they're gonna make it. 533 00:35:11,154.417 --> 00:35:13,104.417 it's really fun to work with those old vineyards. 534 00:35:13,104.417 --> 00:35:19,684.417 I've done it, but ultimately they either get sold or, they get pulled out because, they're just not sustainable. 535 00:35:19,734.417 --> 00:35:20,514.417 Economically. 536 00:35:20,784.417 --> 00:35:23,694.417 And I'm gonna grab some glasses for the next wine. 537 00:35:23,754.417 --> 00:35:24,24.417 Alright. 538 00:35:24,24.417 --> 00:35:28,4.417 But I actually, before we do that, I, ask you, I'm gonna gonna leave, make you answer a question while I walk away. 539 00:35:28,4.417 --> 00:35:28,784.417 Pretend I'm still here. 540 00:35:29,84.417 --> 00:35:35,424.417 Why did you end up, what was, why did you stop just growing? Because that's you, that's, that's a skillset set then you had to jump in. 541 00:35:35,874.417 --> 00:35:53,24.417 When did you do it and why Did you feel like, was it, was it necessary? was, did you feel it was, you know, that it's just something you wanted to do? Why did you decide to double your workload, when you already had a more than full-time job? And is that because you're crazy or, you know, I mean, it's okay. 542 00:35:53,24.417 --> 00:35:54,884.417 You know, we're, we're, we're not on a podcast. 543 00:35:54,884.417 --> 00:35:55,574.417 No one's gonna hear this. 544 00:35:57,884.417 --> 00:36:03,874.417 Well, there are certain days you think you're crazy to be in this business, but it's a passion driven, business. 545 00:36:04,4.417 --> 00:36:07,504.417 much like any craft, you have to be passionate about it. 546 00:36:07,554.417 --> 00:36:09,894.417 If you're in music, you have to be passion driven. 547 00:36:09,899.417 --> 00:36:13,639.417 If you're in the visual arts, you have to be, passion driven. 548 00:36:14,149.417 --> 00:36:17,89.417 and, if you're trying to make it as a poet, you're nuts. 549 00:36:17,89.417 --> 00:36:18,554.417 But to keep going. 550 00:36:18,604.417 --> 00:36:20,584.417 it was an issue of sustainability. 551 00:36:20,714.417 --> 00:36:25,724.417 And I started thinking about it after I was about, oh, I don't know, 15 years into grape growing. 552 00:36:25,784.417 --> 00:36:26,294.417 Oh, okay. 553 00:36:26,324.417 --> 00:36:30,54.417 And, my wife and I were very happy, just growing grapes. 554 00:36:30,564.417 --> 00:36:40,584.417 but I, my family has always kept their eyes on tomorrow and thinking about, you know, always making sure that the next generation is cared for. 555 00:36:40,664.417 --> 00:36:42,404.417 and thinking about what to do next. 556 00:36:42,454.417 --> 00:36:51,54.417 My grandfather was always innovating with, his agricultural crops and how he raised livestock and so was my dad and my uncle. 557 00:36:51,454.417 --> 00:37:06,864.417 they're always pushing, the limits because the forces of economics are always you, you gotta be thinking about that, to stay relevant and to keep living in a beautiful area that is essentially environmentally clean. 558 00:37:06,864.417 --> 00:37:11,814.417 That's what I try to capture on these new bottles is the vineyards are in the background. 559 00:37:11,854.417 --> 00:37:15,994.417 You know, I've been involved in a river restoration because a river runs through everything. 560 00:37:15,994.417 --> 00:37:20,769.417 If you don't have a healthy watershed, you're not gonna have a healthy, environment, to grow grapes. 561 00:37:20,824.417 --> 00:37:35,614.417 And I've been through some bad years where, it didn't rain or it rained too much, or the sun was, mess things up or, hail, took off all your leaves which is rare in Napa Valley, but it's happened and shatter happens. 562 00:37:35,664.417 --> 00:37:44,514.417 and so I wanted to de-risk my, from a business perspective, I wanted to de-risk my farming exposure. 563 00:37:45,244.417 --> 00:37:48,904.417 and take selling by the ton to selling by the bottle. 564 00:37:49,624.417 --> 00:37:53,464.417 And that is a really easy statement to make. 565 00:37:53,464.417 --> 00:37:58,294.417 And it, it's textbook, business, school type stuff, but it's really hard to do. 566 00:37:58,384.417 --> 00:37:58,744.417 Yes. 567 00:37:58,804.417 --> 00:38:07,84.417 And it's capital intensive in this business and everybody, That gets into it probably underestimates the capital intensity. 568 00:38:07,454.417 --> 00:38:11,534.417 it's much more fun than making steel, but it's like a steel mill or something like that. 569 00:38:11,614.417 --> 00:38:19,604.417 and your settings are much more beautiful where you get to go to work every day, but, and then when you start making money, you're constantly putting it back in. 570 00:38:19,604.417 --> 00:38:19,664.417 Yeah. 571 00:38:19,664.417 --> 00:38:21,614.417 You have vines to replace you. 572 00:38:21,794.417 --> 00:38:22,934.417 There's always something. 573 00:38:23,474.417 --> 00:38:37,759.417 And so I got in it for the economics and then nieces and nephews started coming on along and I realized that, there's a couple who think my tractors as sexy as I do, but they all love wine and as they got older, they were. 574 00:38:38,159.417 --> 00:38:45,879.417 evangelizing to, the Gen Zers 'cause they, and, and turning into little wide snobs and whatever dormitory they were living in in college. 575 00:38:45,879.417 --> 00:38:46,359.417 That's awesome. 576 00:38:46,389.417 --> 00:38:46,989.417 Okay. 577 00:38:46,989.417 --> 00:38:47,79.417 Nice. 578 00:38:47,199.417 --> 00:39:03,499.417 And, and for family sustainability and I can't emphasize enough, I've talked about the practicality things of economics, but I was damn curious, right? so I wanted to see, well, can I do this or not? with, more, self-assurance than wisdom. 579 00:39:03,529.417 --> 00:39:18,169.417 I started along the way and, I've had, and, and I started with, David DeSantis helped me start making wine and oh, and then, Jim Close came along and he was with me for 20 years, or just shy of. 580 00:39:18,589.417 --> 00:39:21,489.417 I really wanted to Assure myself of my house style. 581 00:39:21,489.417 --> 00:39:29,429.417 I'm very determined to make wines, that were balanced and not full-blown hedonistic. 582 00:39:29,429.417 --> 00:39:37,729.417 I think it delayed the recognition of my brand because I was purposely doing what wasn't going to be a 95 plus wine. 583 00:39:37,729.417 --> 00:39:38,89.417 Right. 584 00:39:38,219.417 --> 00:39:40,979.417 But it actually, but yeah, but the, the, the tide has shifted. 585 00:39:41,9.417 --> 00:39:41,189.417 Yeah. 586 00:39:41,249.417 --> 00:39:48,919.417 And, and, I think we're evolving out of say, a hedonistic period, and I completely get it. 587 00:39:49,359.417 --> 00:40:01,399.417 because when Robert Mondavi started paying and, and people in his generation started paying the grower enough to start taking better care of the vines. 588 00:40:01,459.417 --> 00:40:01,729.417 Yeah. 589 00:40:02,149.417 --> 00:40:04,399.417 And we got healthier And healthier vines. 590 00:40:04,579.417 --> 00:40:06,979.417 Healthier vines, longer hang time. 591 00:40:06,979.417 --> 00:40:07,669.417 Yes. 592 00:40:07,819.417 --> 00:40:08,899.417 And you couldn't. 593 00:40:09,259.417 --> 00:40:16,179.417 I mean, the judgment of Paris, wines in 76, the alcohol contents were like in the high twelves and thirteens. 594 00:40:16,234.417 --> 00:40:16,444.417 Yeah. 595 00:40:16,474.417 --> 00:40:22,324.417 And it was because we couldn't get grapes riper, all the leaves were red in in August. 596 00:40:22,414.417 --> 00:40:22,654.417 Yeah. 597 00:40:22,984.417 --> 00:40:39,744.417 And I hated that because then that's when your mom puts you in your Christmas sweater and takes you out in a 90 degree heat to take your Christmas and then, you know, there's one kid's crying, one kid's going like this, pulling his Yeah, yeah. 598 00:40:39,744.417 --> 00:40:40,284.417 And all that. 599 00:40:40,404.417 --> 00:40:41,94.417 Oh yeah. 600 00:40:41,94.417 --> 00:40:43,644.417 And I, and most people really don't understand that. 601 00:40:43,644.417 --> 00:40:53,139.417 Like, but so when I teach Napa, like to, a professional, I break it down into the, three generational shifts within Napa cabs specifically. 602 00:40:53,139.417 --> 00:40:57,744.417 'cause you do have your late seventies, early eighties style, which was, you know. 603 00:40:58,74.417 --> 00:41:09,834.417 Even, when they started cleaning up, it was still refined, but then you started getting into your nineties, like 97 being that type like where that massive anxious, like insane oak where people didn't know how. 604 00:41:09,834.417 --> 00:41:14,484.417 Then when 98 hit, people didn't know how to figure out how to deal with a, like a lesser year. 605 00:41:14,484.417 --> 00:41:16,464.417 And so everything was just overblown with oak. 606 00:41:16,464.417 --> 00:41:17,994.417 And then there was no structure. 607 00:41:18,474.417 --> 00:41:21,354.417 And then the aughts just turned into like this. 608 00:41:21,504.417 --> 00:41:57,864.417 I mean, it just was like ca cocaine fuel binge of monstrosities and you know, and you, you saw, but then it was interesting 'cause then you saw the declining influence of critics, which is actually especially Robert Parker, where you're seeing this less, push on high alcohol, massive oak and into just like actually more cleaner, more traditional flavors where you can actually have, one of the things that's hard to point out is that the bigger the wines are, the less nuance you have There's that and there's less of the Appalachian or the sub Appalachian, particularly in the terroir, I guess is a better word. 609 00:41:58,14.417 --> 00:41:59,394.417 And terroir is not just dirt. 610 00:41:59,694.417 --> 00:41:59,874.417 Yep. 611 00:41:59,874.417 --> 00:42:01,674.417 It's all the environmental factors. 612 00:42:01,884.417 --> 00:42:03,294.417 And then I add one more thing. 613 00:42:04,144.417 --> 00:42:07,414.417 the interaction the human has with interpreting that. 614 00:42:07,474.417 --> 00:42:08,104.417 Oh yeah. 615 00:42:08,224.417 --> 00:42:09,4.417 Oh, it's everything. 616 00:42:09,4.417 --> 00:42:11,284.417 'cause I mean, it's every clone You just been talking about clones. 617 00:42:11,284.417 --> 00:42:12,484.417 in our core Somali program. 618 00:42:12,484.417 --> 00:42:12,784.417 The thing. 619 00:42:13,294.417 --> 00:42:15,124.417 I actually have everyone repeat after me. 620 00:42:15,154.417 --> 00:42:16,234.417 Terroir is bullshit. 621 00:42:17,234.417 --> 00:42:19,94.417 and everyone's like, what? Like terroir is bullshit. 622 00:42:19,94.417 --> 00:42:20,414.417 The way you think about it's bullshit. 623 00:42:20,774.417 --> 00:42:32,984.417 Only when these people are in the advanced program do I actually run the terroir program for eight weeks and then show, okay, this is what terroir is, this is what fruit is, this is what secondary flavors are, this is what tertiary flavors are. 624 00:42:33,74.417 --> 00:42:36,824.417 And then let's go into like seeing this and let's go into vertical vintages. 625 00:42:36,824.417 --> 00:42:44,804.417 Let's see what, you know, what, what, what remains the same? 'cause that's actually when you're finding things that are consistent, that's when you know what terroir is. 626 00:42:45,134.417 --> 00:42:46,244.417 It only at that stage. 627 00:42:46,274.417 --> 00:42:55,84.417 But I do, my tattoo is terroir is bullshit, which is not, I point out and I guess, wait, this is, inside baseball, because that's not definitely what I, we don't sell the market. 628 00:42:55,349.417 --> 00:42:57,629.417 Because you need wakes to really get into it. 629 00:42:57,629.417 --> 00:43:03,44.417 And to really understand it because, and we want to evangelize and bring people into wine. 630 00:43:03,344.417 --> 00:43:05,894.417 And it's too intimidating at the beginning. 631 00:43:06,164.417 --> 00:43:12,64.417 and I try to tell people who love wine and are intimidated, all I say is, there are two things you have to know to start. 632 00:43:12,304.417 --> 00:43:13,324.417 You like it or you don't. 633 00:43:13,324.417 --> 00:43:18,414.417 And don't let anybody tell you different because your journey will evolve. 634 00:43:18,444.417 --> 00:43:23,714.417 It's just like your taste in pop music when you're 13 years old, you probably don't like that same mood. 635 00:43:23,764.417 --> 00:43:24,634.417 Yeah, I know. 636 00:43:24,634.417 --> 00:43:25,654.417 I grew up with punk rock. 637 00:43:25,654.417 --> 00:43:28,564.417 It's somewhat, somehow, well, the bused I, I know. 638 00:43:28,899.417 --> 00:43:29,189.417 Yeah. 639 00:43:29,609.417 --> 00:43:32,824.417 You know, gang of Four is still in my brain, so Yeah. 640 00:43:32,824.417 --> 00:43:33,964.417 I miss CBGB. 641 00:43:33,964.417 --> 00:43:35,614.417 Oh, oh my. 642 00:43:35,674.417 --> 00:43:36,454.417 Oh yeah. 643 00:43:36,664.417 --> 00:43:37,564.417 No, that's funny. 644 00:43:37,564.417 --> 00:43:42,934.417 But yeah, no, so I guess we have more to share 'cause you know, I had a, I, I played in a punk rock band when I was a kid. 645 00:43:42,934.417 --> 00:43:43,534.417 I had a mohawk. 646 00:43:44,194.417 --> 00:43:45,814.417 My little, my nickname was Skinny Puppy. 647 00:43:45,844.417 --> 00:43:47,974.417 'cause I was like real thin and just, yeah, no. 648 00:43:48,269.417 --> 00:43:50,189.417 more hair in my eyes than Joey Ramon. 649 00:43:51,189.417 --> 00:43:52,269.417 Oh, that is awesome. 650 00:43:52,329.417 --> 00:43:53,109.417 Oh, I know. 651 00:43:53,159.417 --> 00:43:57,539.417 I know, so I, so, so you're Gen X too ish? No. 652 00:43:57,539.417 --> 00:43:58,379.417 Well, I don't know. 653 00:43:58,589.417 --> 00:44:02,159.417 I'm, I'm on the, what they, some call the saucer generation. 654 00:44:02,159.417 --> 00:44:03,359.417 I was born in 61. 655 00:44:03,569.417 --> 00:44:03,929.417 Okay. 656 00:44:03,934.417 --> 00:44:04,54.417 Yes. 657 00:44:04,59.417 --> 00:44:07,919.417 Yeah, the spillover of the baby boomers and before the Gen X really got started. 658 00:44:07,919.417 --> 00:44:12,629.417 And I've always felt a little trapped in between those two generations. 659 00:44:12,629.417 --> 00:44:14,69.417 And it's not really a trap. 660 00:44:14,289.417 --> 00:44:22,329.417 it's, 'cause I think we oversimplify things by just lumping everybody into some sort of generational cohort. 661 00:44:22,329.417 --> 00:44:26,559.417 There are some similarities, but that's like, saying, I don't know. 662 00:44:26,589.417 --> 00:44:28,134.417 it, it's just not enough for me. 663 00:44:28,194.417 --> 00:44:33,64.417 And, it's like saying Gen Z doesn't like wine, or the millennials don't like wine. 664 00:44:33,114.417 --> 00:44:36,84.417 that's an oversimplification of it. 665 00:44:36,84.417 --> 00:44:40,364.417 And I've been, evangelizing since, Sunday night here on the East Coast. 666 00:44:40,634.417 --> 00:44:45,804.417 And I am, happy to see so many 30 somethings, attending the events I've been doing. 667 00:44:45,834.417 --> 00:44:46,914.417 in DC and New York. 668 00:44:47,404.417 --> 00:44:47,824.417 absolutely. 669 00:44:47,824.417 --> 00:44:51,204.417 So one, 'cause we, you know, we run classes, four days a week, five days a week. 670 00:44:51,294.417 --> 00:44:51,714.417 Oh wow. 671 00:44:51,719.417 --> 00:44:54,274.417 And AC and half of that is academic programming. 672 00:44:54,544.417 --> 00:45:00,604.417 And that's like people commitments of, four hours every Sunday for a whole semester, onwards. 673 00:45:00,604.417 --> 00:45:08,324.417 But one of the things is consistently, the amount of, People in their late twenties, mid twenties has been consistent straight through. 674 00:45:08,324.417 --> 00:45:10,604.417 And this, that, you know, mind you, we're not cheap. 675 00:45:10,844.417 --> 00:45:13,634.417 That is a huge commitment that they're making, that they live. 676 00:45:13,694.417 --> 00:45:20,374.417 But, and also another thing, so like we have seen that, youth, you know, people in their twenties and thirties are a hundred percent in wine, fine wine. 677 00:45:20,374.417 --> 00:45:24,214.417 But I've also noticed, 'cause I'm in the middle of doing a, technical research, for a consulting. 678 00:45:24,244.417 --> 00:45:28,684.417 one of the things was actually like coming to grips with understanding where the market's going. 679 00:45:28,684.417 --> 00:45:39,14.417 And so I had to run my whole investor pitch deck and all, you know, and one of the things I, after multiple months of research that I walked away with is that. 680 00:45:39,884.417 --> 00:45:44,314.417 Honestly, the millennials, they're the only thing you can see difference. 681 00:45:44,384.417 --> 00:45:48,604.417 their love of wine is just the same as Gen X and boomers. 682 00:45:48,604.417 --> 00:45:50,614.417 you don't see any real difference. 683 00:45:50,764.417 --> 00:45:55,804.417 You know, what you see is that they're just the same percentage of their income. 684 00:45:55,834.417 --> 00:45:57,784.417 They're devoting to fine wine. 685 00:45:57,964.417 --> 00:45:59,794.417 If you say just fine wine, they're consuming. 686 00:45:59,794.417 --> 00:46:03,634.417 It's just that they're making right now a little less than boomers and definitely less than Gen X. 687 00:46:04,114.417 --> 00:46:07,804.417 So of course they're spending less per do, you know, but the percentage. 688 00:46:07,804.417 --> 00:46:11,334.417 So as they're coming into their earning power, we're not gonna see a dip there. 689 00:46:12,84.417 --> 00:46:15,834.417 Gen Z is interesting, so we don't have enough information about them. 690 00:46:16,704.417 --> 00:46:25,229.417 They seem like they are, you know, I am very fascinated with what I've been seeing and the later Gen Z, like, we're getting some soft numbers on that. 691 00:46:25,629.417 --> 00:46:28,29.417 but they also, they love. 692 00:46:28,744.417 --> 00:46:31,324.417 it doesn't seem like they're as much into brands as everyone thinks. 693 00:46:31,324.417 --> 00:46:36,114.417 they definitely seem like they really love, that they're the children of the Gen X. 694 00:46:36,114.417 --> 00:46:42,444.417 Like, they love authenticity and they, really don't like the bullshit that they tend to whenever they around wine. 695 00:46:42,444.417 --> 00:46:43,614.417 They don't really like that. 696 00:46:44,304.417 --> 00:46:48,144.417 which is a huge problem in our industry is just how we talk about it. 697 00:46:48,634.417 --> 00:46:54,334.417 before we started recording today, I did point out that I drop F-bombs all the time because that's how I teach. 698 00:46:54,844.417 --> 00:46:54,904.417 Yeah. 699 00:46:54,954.417 --> 00:47:00,944.417 I offend some people, but I draw in so many more people because I'm just fucking who I am I come from wine production. 700 00:47:01,184.417 --> 00:47:02,834.417 My fingernails are always dirty. 701 00:47:02,924.417 --> 00:47:04,274.417 Like, I can't help that. 702 00:47:04,514.417 --> 00:47:05,714.417 we are. 703 00:47:06,179.417 --> 00:47:07,19.417 farmers. 704 00:47:07,69.417 --> 00:47:12,749.417 We're just really smart farmers who make a product that millionaires love, And that is very helpful for our bottom line. 705 00:47:12,749.417 --> 00:47:12,899.417 Yeah. 706 00:47:12,989.417 --> 00:47:18,819.417 My extended family jokes about, the outside strip zone my wife has for me before I can come in the house. 707 00:47:19,749.417 --> 00:47:19,839.417 Yes. 708 00:47:19,924.417 --> 00:47:20,494.417 I'm dirty. 709 00:47:21,214.417 --> 00:47:35,84.417 I've been in the vineyard all day and, I have, the, you know, we have a lot more tech and stuff like that, but, I still, I love, I mean, there's a term for managed by walking around and, but I gotta get in the vineyards in the winery every day. 710 00:47:35,324.417 --> 00:47:35,894.417 Oh, that's awesome. 711 00:47:35,894.417 --> 00:47:36,824.417 And troubleshoot. 712 00:47:36,824.417 --> 00:47:46,334.417 And, and, and, and of course I'm not there today 'cause I'm in Philadelphia, but, that, that's, I'm Jones in, to get back and, and, and, and do that. 713 00:47:46,339.417 --> 00:47:47,894.417 I, I love, but I. 714 00:47:47,994.417 --> 00:47:51,234.417 but I also balance that with, I, I do love talking about it. 715 00:47:51,354.417 --> 00:48:01,684.417 and now I think my wife says that, well, we got into wine and you started, learning how to sell it because I mean, it's still my weakest, skillset is selling. 716 00:48:01,874.417 --> 00:48:07,4.417 I can talk about it and get enthusiastic about it, but I, I I suck at sales. 717 00:48:07,544.417 --> 00:48:08,384.417 Well, you know, I know. 718 00:48:08,384.417 --> 00:48:08,924.417 Oh, so do I. 719 00:48:09,614.417 --> 00:48:11,504.417 Look, you're preaching to the choir, man. 720 00:48:11,504.417 --> 00:48:16,184.417 I mean, we've managed to be around for 20 years, despite the fact that I have, I am actually, yeah. 721 00:48:16,484.417 --> 00:48:17,924.417 They don't allow me to answer the phone. 722 00:48:18,104.417 --> 00:48:21,524.417 I used to answer the phone or emails and, and everyone just said, you can't do it. 723 00:48:21,524.417 --> 00:48:24,254.417 'cause everyone, the time you talk to somebody, we lose the sale. 724 00:48:24,404.417 --> 00:48:25,454.417 Like they will never come. 725 00:48:25,904.417 --> 00:48:34,829.417 So, yeah, it, it, it's, it's, it's, not that I might lose it, but, it, it, it's just that maybe I get too excited about it and don't stop talking. 726 00:48:35,209.417 --> 00:48:38,959.417 well, that's the thing about it, I think, but also I think that we're coming into a time. 727 00:48:39,679.417 --> 00:48:48,289.417 Where being authentic and just having an honest, just appreciation for what you do and being honest about that and like how hard it is. 728 00:48:48,709.417 --> 00:48:57,109.417 What, you know, what it's not like, you're just not, like, everyone's tired of like that picture of like the old guy with this dog walking through the vineyard, like as if that's all it is. 729 00:48:57,289.417 --> 00:48:57,439.417 Yeah. 730 00:48:57,499.417 --> 00:49:09,379.417 And you know, and 'cause we've, we've sold a lot of bad wine with that image and, and it's done small producers at dis a disservice because sometimes it's just one person doing all the work. 731 00:49:10,189.417 --> 00:49:14,329.417 But then you have these large companies that glom onto that and it's like, no, we're different. 732 00:49:14,329.417 --> 00:49:16,429.417 We're, we're are actually different. 733 00:49:16,429.417 --> 00:49:21,169.417 And what we do is different because there's a lot of different choices we make and it's not by committee. 734 00:49:21,499.417 --> 00:49:25,99.417 It's a unique individual thing that other people have found value in. 735 00:49:25,399.417 --> 00:49:29,579.417 And then we also, like, people found value in what you do, long before you did. 736 00:49:30,119.417 --> 00:49:36,239.417 I think it's absolutely true, and every generation since World War II has become more sophisticated about food and wine. 737 00:49:36,419.417 --> 00:49:36,779.417 Yes. 738 00:49:37,109.417 --> 00:49:42,714.417 Napa is probably gonna be one of the later stops on their journey because it's expensive to make wine there. 739 00:49:42,744.417 --> 00:49:43,74.417 Yeah. 740 00:49:43,314.417 --> 00:49:51,324.417 and there's always been some, gateway wine for every generation that gets some excited or type of wine. 741 00:49:51,464.417 --> 00:49:53,234.417 White Zen coolers. 742 00:49:53,414.417 --> 00:49:53,744.417 Oh, yes. 743 00:49:54,324.417 --> 00:49:55,764.417 I grew up, what Zima was. 744 00:49:55,914.417 --> 00:49:56,544.417 Lancers. 745 00:49:56,544.417 --> 00:49:56,546.417 Oh, lancers. 746 00:49:56,814.417 --> 00:49:57,354.417 Lancers. 747 00:49:57,354.417 --> 00:50:00,144.417 Actually legit vineyards, but really shitty wine. 748 00:50:00,264.417 --> 00:50:04,284.417 I mean, my God, that little area of Portugal actually now makes great wines. 749 00:50:04,344.417 --> 00:50:05,304.417 And it's so funny. 750 00:50:05,304.417 --> 00:50:07,104.417 It's like, that's the old Lancer vineyards. 751 00:50:07,344.417 --> 00:50:17,364.417 I don't know if we've, found it for this generation, but what I do notice is that, even if they can't describe it, they have a more sophisticated palette at a younger age. 752 00:50:17,604.417 --> 00:50:24,524.417 Oh really? yeah, just by having been imbued by their Gen X parents with maybe having tasted some nice wines. 753 00:50:24,529.417 --> 00:50:24,759.417 Yeah. 754 00:50:24,914.417 --> 00:50:25,244.417 Yeah. 755 00:50:25,324.417 --> 00:50:35,394.417 I see 30 somethings at least coming into the winery and laying down, for some wines, but that's probably a bit anomalous because we live next to Silicon Valley. 756 00:50:35,454.417 --> 00:50:36,204.417 Oh yeah. 757 00:50:36,209.417 --> 00:50:36,319.417 Yep. 758 00:50:36,319.417 --> 00:50:38,264.417 And the creative stuff in the Bay Area. 759 00:50:38,294.417 --> 00:50:38,774.417 Oh yeah. 760 00:50:38,824.417 --> 00:50:42,124.417 and, you know, I want one of those kids to adopt me. 761 00:50:43,474.417 --> 00:50:43,684.417 Yeah. 762 00:50:43,869.417 --> 00:50:50,679.417 so we try to, walk 'em around the vineyard and, there, there's a luxury aspect to it, but it just has to be. 763 00:50:50,679.417 --> 00:50:56,99.417 But the luxury aspect of it maybe isn't, high count threaded sheets. 764 00:50:56,159.417 --> 00:51:10,759.417 It's, just a quiet experience, surrounded kind of by nature and the birds chirping around the winery and, seeing the guys, and ladies that work in the vineyard or in the winery and you said it, it's authenticity. 765 00:51:10,789.417 --> 00:51:16,129.417 And I've kind of thought about this all the way back to the beginning of the industrial revolution. 766 00:51:16,129.417 --> 00:51:20,149.417 The more disconnected from nature we get, the more we want to touch something. 767 00:51:20,269.417 --> 00:51:20,629.417 Yeah. 768 00:51:20,664.417 --> 00:51:21,4.417 Oh yeah. 769 00:51:21,19.417 --> 00:51:26,209.417 and what's not to like about sipping wine and touching a grapevine or Oh, yeah. 770 00:51:26,239.417 --> 00:51:28,299.417 or smelling a Oh yeah. 771 00:51:28,359.417 --> 00:51:28,959.417 Oh my god. 772 00:51:29,304.417 --> 00:51:36,304.417 No, I mean, one of the things that I miss so much I desperately missed, being on this coast now is making wine. 773 00:51:36,304.417 --> 00:51:43,714.417 So, I mean, I basically started an entire wine production, program for my students, my advanced small age students, just because I miss touching it. 774 00:51:44,164.417 --> 00:51:44,794.417 I miss it. 775 00:51:44,794.417 --> 00:51:45,844.417 I love sharing it with them. 776 00:51:45,844.417 --> 00:51:47,194.417 And they just, it changes them. 777 00:51:47,234.417 --> 00:51:59,234.417 And we have people who are, 'cause we're here in Philly, so we have people who are like department heads of hospitals, we have CEOs and they just fall in love with something that they never knew they were gonna fall in love with. 778 00:51:59,669.417 --> 00:52:03,299.417 And like I just tell 'em like, look, there's gonna be a point, like, you're gonna either love or hate this. 779 00:52:03,299.417 --> 00:52:10,779.417 You're gonna be here, it's gonna be 10 o'clock at night and you're not done I make them actually pick each berry by hand and pull it off. 780 00:52:10,839.417 --> 00:52:17,859.417 So I want everything, because it's, 'cause you know, 'cause I just want to, to get within like three hours of just like how hard it is and how. 781 00:52:18,89.417 --> 00:52:18,329.417 Boom. 782 00:52:18,329.417 --> 00:52:20,989.417 But they have to do all of them manually, which is a lot of fun to do. 783 00:52:21,289.417 --> 00:52:26,329.417 but it gets them, and they're there and they're there at midnight and they're like, I've never had a better day in my life. 784 00:52:26,359.417 --> 00:52:26,629.417 Yeah. 785 00:52:26,629.417 --> 00:52:34,429.417 And then we drink beer and of course, 'cause we're, we're, you know, here in Philly, so it's gummy yingling, and, you know, so Yeah. 786 00:52:34,429.417 --> 00:52:35,889.417 It takes a lot of beer to, make wine. 787 00:52:35,889.417 --> 00:52:38,459.417 if you want to be in the business, stay in and day out. 788 00:52:38,509.417 --> 00:52:42,259.417 there's more hours than you ever expected that you will spend. 789 00:52:42,289.417 --> 00:52:44,929.417 On one aspect of the business or another. 790 00:52:45,9.417 --> 00:52:46,89.417 Yeah, it is. 791 00:52:46,139.417 --> 00:52:47,969.417 So you gotta be passionate about it. 792 00:52:48,29.417 --> 00:52:49,829.417 And for those who. 793 00:52:51,774.417 --> 00:52:53,184.417 Or just learning to like wine. 794 00:52:53,184.417 --> 00:52:58,724.417 I, I, I like to suggest well figure out what your budget is and try as many different wines. 795 00:52:58,994.417 --> 00:53:00,314.417 Find a good wine shop. 796 00:53:00,314.417 --> 00:53:12,464.417 I mean, take some of your academy courses, or if that's not available, Find a good wine shop that starts to understand what you like and just graze the menu Yes. 797 00:53:12,464.417 --> 00:53:14,354.417 Try as many different things as you can. 798 00:53:14,504.417 --> 00:53:16,474.417 And you'll gravitate to one thing or another. 799 00:53:16,524.417 --> 00:53:17,754.417 Exploration is everything. 800 00:53:17,754.417 --> 00:53:23,774.417 And I'll just point out that anyone, anywhere in the country can always take the a l one, program with a national wine school. 801 00:53:23,774.417 --> 00:53:32,144.417 That's a real, like, fortunately, my partner who, is the director of education here, she always makes me not, say anything about, promoting her own stuff. 802 00:53:32,144.417 --> 00:53:32,834.417 But I just did it. 803 00:53:32,894.417 --> 00:53:33,464.417 'cause she's not here. 804 00:53:34,544.417 --> 00:53:36,404.417 She's also our lawyer too, so, you know. 805 00:53:36,864.417 --> 00:53:37,494.417 inappropriate. 806 00:53:37,564.417 --> 00:53:37,894.417 Oh yeah. 807 00:53:37,929.417 --> 00:53:38,679.417 She won't even know. 808 00:53:38,679.417 --> 00:53:39,339.417 I'll be like, no, honey. 809 00:53:39,339.417 --> 00:53:40,989.417 No, we didn't say anything about, you know. 810 00:53:41,89.417 --> 00:53:41,569.417 But yeah. 811 00:53:41,569.417 --> 00:53:42,529.417 No, this is fantastic. 812 00:53:42,529.417 --> 00:53:44,899.417 I really, It's heartening always to hear. 813 00:53:45,139.417 --> 00:53:52,459.417 And I really love when for our reader, listeners, readers, our, and our students to understand like actually how, what hard work it is. 814 00:53:52,459.417 --> 00:53:59,664.417 But also just what a worthwhile endeavor it is because it is a very, you and I both share this, like the, I couldn't be anything else. 815 00:53:59,664.417 --> 00:54:08,574.417 Like I don't, if I didn't do this, I don't know what I would do because I'm really happy working hard and really happy, you know, touching this dirt. 816 00:54:08,784.417 --> 00:54:14,184.417 You know, this is my, this is my happy place and I cannot imagine doing and bringing other people. 817 00:54:14,184.417 --> 00:54:15,774.417 I've brought so many people into this. 818 00:54:15,874.417 --> 00:54:24,294.417 I just don't know how, what else would've made me happy? you will experience the entire range of emotions being in this industry. 819 00:54:25,234.417 --> 00:54:27,914.417 yeah, and I guess that's part of passion though. 820 00:54:27,914.417 --> 00:54:35,774.417 And it's a passion that drives you through, the good times are always the good times, but it's passion and dedication that gets you through the hard times. 821 00:54:36,404.417 --> 00:54:36,884.417 It does. 822 00:54:36,884.417 --> 00:54:41,984.417 It like what happened during Covid that was brutal, or what's happening with the, trade issues that are happening right now. 823 00:54:41,984.417 --> 00:54:43,264.417 Like there's always these things. 824 00:54:43,264.417 --> 00:54:46,24.417 You look at it, you're like, this is really bad. 825 00:54:46,354.417 --> 00:54:49,804.417 What am I gonna do? And if I was in any other job, I probably would've given up. 826 00:54:50,374.417 --> 00:54:56,764.417 Well, there's only two reasons to enjoy a glass or two of wine a night to celebrate your victories or drown your sorrows. 827 00:54:57,344.417 --> 00:54:57,794.417 Thank you. 828 00:54:58,124.417 --> 00:55:00,104.417 But All right, Tom, it was great having you here. 829 00:55:00,109.417 --> 00:55:00,879.417 Thank you so much. 830 00:55:01,49.417 --> 00:55:01,720.417 Thank you so much. 831 00:55:02,204.417 --> 00:55:03,524.417 Oh man, this is awesome. 832 00:55:03,764.417 --> 00:55:05,294.417 I'll hopefully we'll, keep in touch. 833 00:55:05,534.417 --> 00:55:06,584.417 Oh, absolutely. 834 00:55:06,644.417 --> 00:55:08,54.417 Alright folks. 835 00:55:08,204.417 --> 00:55:10,934.417 Thank you for listening to the entire, podcast. 836 00:55:11,234.417 --> 00:55:15,284.417 This was, Tom Gamble of Gamble Estates, and of course I'm Keith Wallace. 837 00:55:15,404.417 --> 00:55:20,674.417 Thank you for listening! 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