Don Mills - How Atlantic Canada Can Pay It’s Own Way

We sit down once again with Don Mills for a frank, energized conversation about a new private-sector panel tasked with one job: raise productivity and close the prosperity gap with the rest of Canada. No spin. No bureaucratic maze. Just a focused plan to turn our energy potential, resource base, and export channels into real incomes and real jobs.

We dig into the big levers. Energy sits at the core: offshore wind, onshore wind, tidal, hydro from Labrador, nuclear in New Brunswick, and proven natural gas reserves. Don argues we need a modern transmission grid, predictable approvals, and clear timelines to unlock billions in capital. He challenges myths vs facts around fracking and mining by pointing to decades of safe practice elsewhere, remediation bonds that return mine sites back to nature, and the productivity gains that large capital projects can deliver. The goal isn’t to bulldoze environmental standards—it’s to replace uncertainty with clarity so investors build here instead of passing us by.

We also talk about the economic engine already working in our favour: Halifax Stanfield. With direct international routes, belly freight for seafood exports, and a billion dollars in upgrades, the airport shows how strategic assets compound over time and shift us from “nice to visit” to “smart to invest.” From there, we zoom out to the fundamentals: right-sizing a decade of public headcount growth, aligning regional efforts instead of fighting in provincial silos, and pacing population growth to match services. The labour challenge is real, which is why Don makes a strong case for the trades—electricians, pipefitters, and technologists will be the scarce skills that make big projects possible.

Underneath it all is a cultural reset: move from saying no by default to asking how we can do it responsibly. Startups and newcomer founders are already there—thinking global, shipping products abroad, and raising the bar on ambition. If we build the grid, streamline approvals, and keep the conversation rooted in facts, Atlantic Canada can pay its own way, lower tax pressure, and fund more doctors and teachers without leaning on transfers.

If this vision resonates, share the episode, leave a review, and hit follow so more Atlantic Canadians can find it—and join the chorus calling for smart growth.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:29):
Cheers.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Welcome to the afternoon pint.
I'm Mike.
I'm Matt Conrad.
Who do we have here?
Don Mills.
Don Mills.
Our only our second person everto have made an appearance on
the Afternoon Pint for a thirdtime.
That's pretty cool.
And technically, if you want tocount the live podcast, you're

(00:50):
the only one who's done it fourtimes.

SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Oh, right.
So there you are.

SPEAKER_02 (00:53):
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, the live podcast.
That was a cool.
I mean, I'm sorry I wasn'tthere, Diane.
I mean, uh I had I had a lastminute thing.
I had to be in another part ofthe province.
But uh but yeah, gee, that wasit sounds like it was a great
success.
I saw a lot of people quitehappy about that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08):
Yeah, lots of good responses.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09):
And uh congratulations to you on the
reprint of your book.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Oh, yeah, I know.
That's pretty exciting for us,actually.
The the book has done um I'm notgonna say better than we
expected, but uh certainly it'sdone uh done well and it still
continues to sell.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
Towards prosperity.
Um so you guys have reallyworked that book.
I mean, I've noticed I've seenjust a lot of activity, uh and a
lot of support has come behindthat book.
Um one cool thing I thoughtabout that book, and it's just a
quick notice, is that there wasno there was no political
divide.
Um people were supporting thatbook on every side of the aisle,
and I'm still seeing thatsupport on almost a weekly

(01:46):
basis, which is such a greatthing, right?
When you can un unilaterallyjust kind of all agree that we
can do better things in oureconomy.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Yeah.
I I think it helps that you knowwe uh we use a fair amount of
data to support our uh points ofview and uh and recommendations.
And I've always found throughoutmy career that when you have uh
data on your side, it you don'tget as many arguments or or
people coming uh at you uhbecause they don't have the same

(02:15):
data.

SPEAKER_03 (02:15):
Very cool.
Yeah.
The other thing though I dofind, and I don't know if you
experience this or not, but assomeone who I uh you know, I
look at you and I don't know howyou consider yourself, but I
consider yourself a prettycentered person, fairly neutral
person.
Um I find that when you are inthe center, that you sometimes
maybe get attacked a little bitmore for your thoughts and
opinions, because both sidesdon't maybe not like what you're

(02:38):
saying sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Well, I've never held back my opinions, Matt.
Yeah.
And uh, you know, it's gotten mein uh some trouble occasionally,
but uh uh I always felt thatit's uh important to be yourself
and to speak the truth as muchas you can.
And uh and just to that point,uh, you know, I think that uh
our region needs a little bitmore truth telling um about kind

(03:03):
of what we have to do to be moresuccessful, and um uh I'm gonna
continue to do that for as longas I can, actually.

SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
Yeah, no, we touched on that a little bit in our last
our last show together, and Ithink I when you kind of really
I mean there was something I uhI had a really great comment
from that episode and youchanged their perspective on
something.
And it was actually when youtalked a little bit about
Alberta and uh you know how howthey feel and how how we are is
how much how much we produceversus how much they produce,
right?

(03:30):
You know, we need to producemore to sustain ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
Well, we need to we we need to kind of pay more of
our own way, I think is thebetter way of uh of phrasing
that, Mike.
Um, you know, we've depended onthe generosity of other
Canadians for, you know, decadesnow, and we've gotten a bit too
comfortable uh thinking that wedon't have to produce anything
here or mine anything here ordevelop anything here because,

(03:56):
you know, somebody else is gonnatake care of us and keep us in
the lifestyle to which we becomeaccustomed.
And I can tell you that theWestern provinces aren't uh
aren't quite as uh, you know, onside about uh continuing to send
money our way if we're not gonnabe prepared to develop our
resources in the same way thatthey're developing their
resources to send us uh support.

SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
Well we've been hearing that message loud and
clear for a while now, really.

SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
I heard something just yesterday or something like
that.
But um uh and correct me if I'mwrong, but did they just get
approval for a new pipeline?

SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Uh what's the uh they've they signed a memorandum
of agreement, uh um and youknow, which is a good I think a
good start.
Um Frank.
They seem happy.
Yeah, but there's still lots ofbumps on the road ahead, and one
of them being BC, who are not onsite.
So, you know, we can talk aboutuh um energy for sure.

(04:49):
Um it's a it's a big opportunityfor our region, um, and we have
to think about it in a differentway than we have been currently
thinking about it, and we cantalk about that as well.

SPEAKER_03 (04:59):
Yeah, so I mean uh this uh kind of to lead into it,
we get lots of things we want toask you.
Um but uh the purpose of havingyou on here is uh because you
had a special announcementyesterday.
You kind of gave us a heads upat the live podcast that
something was coming.

SPEAKER_04 (05:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (05:12):
And uh we wanted to invite you on here to uh to talk
about it because we want to getit like fresh while it was
freshly new.

SPEAKER_00 (05:19):
Yeah, it is fresh.

SPEAKER_03 (05:20):
Yeah.
So uh tell us about this panelthat is that was announced
yesterday with uh you know withuh Sean Frazier.

SPEAKER_00 (05:27):
Yeah, so I uh Sean um um contacted me uh towards
the end of September and uhcaught me out of the blue,
basically, and he asked me if Iwould be willing to um chair a
panel to take a look at the umeconomic uh prosperity for
Atlantic Canada.
And uh I I thought about it alittle bit before I said yes,

(05:49):
uh, because I I wanted to besure of a couple things.
I you know, one of the thingsthat I he he wanted to do is to
have a private sector-led uhstrategy uh developed, and I
wanted to make sure that itwould be completely independent
of government before I said yes,and he assured me that uh we
would have full um independenceof what we did, and and you

(06:11):
know, he would not uh not kindof uh get in our way.
So on the basis of that, Idecided um it's kind of where
I've been pointed all my life,guys.
Like, you know, I spent uh 40years uh studying the um
Atlantic Canada from a social,economic, political point of
view, had a pretty good ideaabout what Atlantic Canada's
about.
It actually made me uh a prettystrong Atlantic Canadian,

(06:34):
frankly, that that uh thatcareer.
And then I started writing aboutit and doing podcasts, and you
know, you know, with David wrotewrote a book.
And like, you know, my wholelife has been on, you know, why
is it that we're not moreeconomically successful uh as
the rest of the country?
And you know, came to someconclusions and some answers
about that.
And now I get to put my moneywhere my mouth is to some extent

(06:57):
and and uh try to figure out uhwhat are our best opportunities
to narrow the gap in GDP andproductivity in particular uh
with the rest of the country.
And if we do that, uh you know,our standard of living here will
get better.

SPEAKER_02 (07:13):
It's a promising premise.

SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
And that's so to anyone listening, kind of
saying, like, okay, this is justlike, you know, someone might
look at this is another study oranother panel or whatever, like
what do you feel is the bigdifference between this and
anything that's been done in thepast?

SPEAKER_00 (07:28):
Well, uh to my knowledge, uh, in this region,
it's the first time it's uhpurely uh private sector-led
initiative.
It's not a government uhinitiative.
Like if you think about theIvony report, it was it was a
quasi-public uh, you know, um uhsort of endeavor.
Uh we have a we have a fully uhwe have seven members, including

(07:51):
myself, on the panel.
All of them have, you know,strong business backgrounds um
and a variety of backgrounds,which is really useful to the
work that we're gonna do.
And uh, you know, we're gonna befairly practical, you know, and
and but we're also gonna be, Ithink, demanding as well.
So we're not gonna pull anypunches about uh what uh we
think should be done uh or whatneeds to change in order to be

(08:14):
successful.
Um let me give you an example,because I think this might put
it in perspective.
Last night we were uh theminister and I were having a
conversation.
It's available uh on l uh onstream, by the way, through the
ECOA um website if anybody'sinterested.
It was only a sh half-hourconversation, but it kind of
outlined what we were trying todo and uh the mandate.

(08:36):
Uh and part way through, we werekind of on a little script go
through some questions.
I said, listen, I have to go offscript here, uh Minister,
because you know, you're askingus to do a really important
thing here, which is to uhimprove uh productivity in our
region.
And I said, we have a we have astructural issue that we we need
to uh uh talk about out loud.

(08:57):
Uh and one and and it has to dowith the fact that we have a
higher than normal uh portion ofthe workforce who work for the
public sector.
And we have a smaller privatesector.
Now, if you want to talk aboutproductivity improvement, the
problem is that the publicsector has not had any
productivity growth for the last10 years.

(09:18):
And the private sector, fromeverything I can gather, has
actually done reasonably well onthe productivity side.
So how can we narrow the gapunless we rebalance the
workforce in this region tofavor more private sector over
public sector jobs?
We can't have the public sector,which they've done for the last
10 years, add more jobs than theprivate sector.

(09:40):
That is the recipe for disaster.
And in the last 10 years, youjust have to look at the data,
that's what's happened.
And so I kind of wanted to setthe tone right away that we're
just not gonna talk about wherethe big projects are that can
make a difference, but whatanswer has to change from a
policy point of view and andfrom a fiscal point of view uh
to be able to realize our goals.

SPEAKER_03 (10:03):
So you have this panel that is gonna be so what
exactly are you gonna be likelooking at?
Because I mean we'll get intolike the experience of the
panel, but yeah, um what whattype of like authority are you
gonna have?
Like is there anything that youcan like what's really gonna
make a difference?
Are you gonna be able to walk inand say like, hey, do this, and
they're gonna like yes, we'regonna do that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
We don't have any power except the power of
persuasion, uh and uh maybemoral authority, I'm not sure.
But um you know, our job is tois to um make a uh put together
a strategy, uh not just uh theideas, but kind of the
executional side.
What ha how can it how can ithappen, what needs to be done,

(10:49):
like you know, so that as muchas possible would be
prescriptive in terms of thesteps that need to happen.
And then and then obviously uhit's gonna be we're gonna
present to the public.
We're not presenting to thegovernment.
We're presenting um, you know,our report to the public.
And they can decide if it makessense or not.
And then it's up to thegovernment and the private

(11:11):
sector to figure out does thismake sense and should we go for
it?
But one thing that's been veryclear from the minister is that
uh, at least from a coast pointof view, they want to narrow the
focus of where they spend theireffort.
They don't want to try to doeverything for everybody.
They have to pick some thingsthat will make a big uh what I
would call transformationaldifference to our the prosperity

(11:34):
in our region.

SPEAKER_03 (11:35):
Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
So I'm taking the minister at his word that uh,
you know, he's gonna give uhgive us uh give us full
consideration and and hopefullytake actions where he needs to
take actions.
But it's not just the it's notit's not just the government
that needs to uh you knowrealize that there are things
that have to change.
It's the private sector as well.

(11:57):
And uh and and it's the publicas well.
And and and why do I say that?
Uh uh I would say based on myfour decades of doing research
in this region, we haveattitudinal issues, serious
attitudinal issues when it comesto developing natural resources.

SPEAKER_04 (12:12):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
You know, we're really quick to say no uh for
sometimes no good reason uh whenother jurisdictions are are are
you know mining their theirtheir materials and cutting
their forests and and andputting up windmills.

SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
Just to pause for a second, let's just talk about
that.
Like why do we think it is thathere on the East Coast we we we
we don't want to invest in inour natural resources?
You know, what are some of thelogic behind it?

SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
I'll tell you, Mike, the real reason is this.
Like we spent decades dependingon government to solve our
problems and and to finance ourlifestyle.
And so that dependency hasreally corrupted our our
thinking about be being you knowself-sufficient.

(13:00):
You know, that dependency uh hasled us to be able to easily say
no because there's noconsequences of saying no to
developing our naturalresources, because somebody else
is gonna send us money to keepus in the lifestyle to which
we've become accustomed, right?
And so um that's the problem.
Uh and it's and and it's beendeveloping over decades.

(13:20):
It's gonna take a long time tochange that attitude.
But you know, we need to find away, uh let's talk about
productivity for a second.
When you look at the mostsuccessful of our provinces,
which are, you know,Saskatchewan, BC, Saskatchewan,
you know, a lot of it's drivenbecause they're using their
natural resources, which arereally capital intensive.

(13:42):
And you when you when you haveto spend a lot of capital, you
get productivity through thatlarge capital expenditures,
right?
We haven't hardly had any ofthose heavy industry capital
expenditures, especially in NovaScotia for a long time.
And so you want to increaseproductivity, you have to get
some of those heavier industriesuh going and and to make sure

(14:03):
that those and investment inequipment and and and whatever
uh are made in this province.
So, you know, we've been wehaven't had our our share of uh
new capital in this region for along time.
Part of it's because we can'tdevelop our resources.
Simple as that.

SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
Should uh non-Atlantic Canadians be
excited about this?

SPEAKER_00 (14:25):
I I think having a new attitude about trying to be
you know more of a contributorto the Federation uh will be
well received.
Yeah.
Honestly.
I think that, you know, uhpeople uh you know already think
we're pr pr pretty nice people,nice place to visit.
But you know, I would like themto think it's not just a nice

(14:46):
place to live, nice place tovisit, but it's a nice place to
invest.
Yeah.
And it's a nice place to, youknow, do business.
And I think that that's thethat's the change that that that
we need to see, um, Matt, if wewant to get uh more investment
coming into our region.
And you know, we have like uh wedid a podcast recently with uh a
guy who is uh an oil and gasexpert, his name is Jim

(15:08):
Livingston, invite everybody togo and listen to that podcast.
And one of the things that hewas talking about was um the
exploration of onshore naturalgas.
Well, you know, that's a no-gohere, right?
Nobody wants to do that becauseyou can't do fracking in Canada.
Can do it every ounce in theworld, but you can't do it here
for some reason.
But what if there is anothermethodology that didn't use

(15:29):
fracking to get the uh naturalgas out of the ground?
Would that make a difference?
And he he has anothermethodology that does not use
fracking, which takes away mostof the arguments that people
have about contaminantcontamination of water, which
doesn't happen, and and youknow, earthquakes, you know, all

(15:50):
that is taken away.
Now, would that make adifference in in developing the
natural gas reserves that wehave here, which are
significant, by the way, andproven.
You know, um I forget what thethe the the measurement is, but
you know the in Canada uh todayuh uh they need one million

(16:14):
kilobytes of natural gas,whatever the determination to
heat all the homes using naturalgas today.
In the maritime provinces alone,we have over a hundred million
of reserves.
Okay, which means, you know, umyou know we have fifty years of

(16:34):
reserves to heat all the homesof natural gas in the country.

SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
So so fracking, so I mean You just said something
there that I don't know if Iagree with because I really
don't know, and I don't likesaying I don't know, I don't
agree with you because I don'tknow the answer.
So that's you know yet youcommented there just like you
know the fracking would berelatively harmless, is what you
said.
Uh uh I didn't say I didn't sayI didn't say harmless.

SPEAKER_00 (16:56):
So I was trying to understand that to make sure
that's the same.
So what I'm saying is that inother parts of Canada and across
the United States, they've usedfracking for decades, decades,
uh uh with very little recordedissues with it.
Now there is some potential ofuh you know slight earthquakes

(17:18):
uh happened on occasion.

SPEAKER_02 (17:20):
And and well water effects.

SPEAKER_00 (17:24):
Is that not true?
No, that's not true.
That's actually not true becauseuh you know it's well below the
the water table.
Okay.
Well below the water tables.
It doesn't affect wells.
That that is from myunderstanding.

SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
Because I mean that's something I just believe.

SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
I know, of course you do.
Why do you do believe thatthough?

SPEAKER_02 (17:39):
Well, because I seem I I live in a rural community
and I see no fracking signs.
Oh, right.
So I assume that's because ofthe water I drink is going to
get messed up and startfracking.

SPEAKER_00 (17:48):
That's a great argument to scare people, but
what if it wasn't true?
Well it's great.

SPEAKER_02 (17:55):
I'm glad I brought it up because you know what?
I'm sure a lot of people feellike me right now.
Yeah, no, but I see these in ourcommunities.
When you go to a smallcommunity, that's one of the
first signs you see is a nofracking and no robots.
That's a new one, too.
I like that one.

SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Good.
Yeah.
Uh but how about doing yourresearch?
How about how about looking atthe literature?
Right.
You know, before you make thatassumption.
This is one of the problems wehave in our society.
You know, we have specialinterest groups that are very
well organized to stop stuff.
But who who are thecounterpoints of of of promoting
things in our society?
It's usually the proponents ofthe of whatever the development

(18:30):
is.
It's not the average group ofcitizens say, oh yeah, we need
to f we need to frack, we needto do natural gas.
It doesn't mean that they'reagainst it, but they're just not
going to speak up for it.
So it sounds like everybody'sagainst it.
I this is what I did in my life.
I looked at, you know, publicopinion on issues, and what I
found is this is that quiteoften it was the the vocal

(18:51):
minority that that you know kindof got the got the attention.
And the silent majority it is anactual fact, are silent and and
did not express their opinion.
And and by the way, it's uh letme give you another example.
But influences passed.

SPEAKER_03 (19:07):
I actually probably fall into like in the the silent
majority.
I probably fall into thatbecause I don't have a hard
really stance either way,because again, I don't know.
I'm not a geologist, I don'tknow.
Right.
So my thing is is like I thinkwe should be exploring our
natural resources because Ithink that is something that we
can do to bring prosperity here,and we want people to buy that
stuff.
Sure.
New money coming from around theworld, coming here makes us

(19:29):
richer and better, right?

SPEAKER_04 (19:30):
100%.

SPEAKER_03 (19:31):
So I love that side of it.
The other side of it is like I'mI don't know enough about like
what could happen if it causesearthquakes or sinkholes or I
don't know, right?

SPEAKER_04 (19:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (19:40):
I don't know.
So for me, that's my thing isI'm the kind of the silent
majority of like I don't have ahard stance.

SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Let me give you a couple of other examples.
Yeah.
Okay, if you don't mind.
So uranium.
Uranium, okay?
Yeah.
Uh we have uranium in thisprovince.
There was been a ban on uraniummining for since the 90s, 1990s,
somehow I forget the exact date.
And of course, we couldn't havenuclear power.

SPEAKER_03 (20:04):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (20:05):
Well, really?
I mean, Saskatchewan, uh one ofthe major um miners of uranium,
has been doing it for like 60years without any any harmful
consequence.
We have a Canadian province whohas figured out that they can
mine uranium and it's perfectlyacceptable in in the population

(20:26):
of Saskatchewan.
That's the difference.
Here we we we ban it.
We could we we can't even lookfor it, we can't can't do
anything about it.

SPEAKER_03 (20:32):
That's unlifted now, though, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
It's been lifted.
But you know what?
Uh someone No one's coming hereyet.
No.
But why would that be the thing,Matt?

SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
Because they're afraid.

SPEAKER_00 (20:41):
Right.
Yeah.
Why would they come here justbecause it's now available?
Because they know this is theNova Scotia is rated among the
60 sort of jurisdictions uh uhthat are tracked annually as
number 60 as the last one.
Wasn't it 59?

SPEAKER_02 (20:58):
We just go back to New Brunswick this year, man.
Because New Brunswick was.
Okay.
Okay, sorry.
You got to tell your co-host uhDavid David about that one.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
So New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, last and second
last in terms of preferredjurisdictions.
Crazy though, eh?
Now think about this.
Newfoundland is rated uh number13.

SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (21:19):
Now why would that be, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
I come from a very good one of intelligent folk.

SPEAKER_00 (21:24):
No, they're practical and they have good
regul they have a goodregulatory environment relative
to Nova Scotia and and NewBrunswick.

SPEAKER_03 (21:31):
I thought it was that half an hour head start,
that's why head start.
It might be there too.
But no, no, I listen.
So I I'm I'm I'm with you.
I think, and I mean I also thinkthe offshore wind stuff that we
talked about in the lastepisode, I think that is
something we need to explore.
Um uranium, I'm I'm I'm with it.
Uh because that is the otherside of it where I know other

(21:55):
places do it.
So it it to me it almost seemsso easy, so black and white, for
to be able to just come and sayand like to prove, like, hey,
we've been doing it for 60 yearshere, there's no issues that
we've had.
Right.
Group that hates it, you'rewrong.
Here's the proof.

SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Nobody's made that argument.
You know, it it like it might bethat you know, if you have
somebody who's trying to open amine, uh look at the the new
gold mine was just approved inGuysboro.
Like, you know, they took them along time to get that approval,
right?
Well, they have to go so thoseso many hoops, so many years
before they get to the it ittakes real, you know, sort of uh

(22:37):
strength of of of character tokeep working on it.
Like the average mine from fromthe time it's discovered to the
time it gets into production inNova Scotia is 17 years.
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (22:47):
Now what if you were just a l what if there were no
rules?
Would that be a good thing?

SPEAKER_00 (22:50):
No, no, there should there should always be rules.

SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
No, no.
But is there would there be howhow could they expedite that
process, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Well, they could expedite it uh uh like like in
Nova Scotia, as I understand it,uh you know, this is what Sean
Kirby, the executive director ofthe mining association in Nova
Scotia, uh said to me, is thatin Nova Scotia, there's not one
department, but two departmentsthat you have to get approvals
for to open a mine.
Okay.
We're the only province in thecountry that needs two

(23:17):
departmental approvals.

SPEAKER_02 (23:19):
What does the first group do differently from the
second group?
I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Okay.
I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 (23:24):
Do you feel that the fear of investment, especially
in the energy sector or even themining sector, is the fear comes
from that they feel like they'reone election away from losing
everything that they've investedin?

SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
Well, you know, you need to have certainty when you
invest.

SPEAKER_03 (23:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
And and especially when you have long lead times
like uh development of a mine.
You know, I just talked to a guybefore I uh um uh came here
today who uh has a an idea toopen a a copper mine in in Cape
Breton.
And you know, because of whereit's located, you know, one of
the challenges with miningusually is uh you know, getting

(23:57):
energy and water and a road intothe mine.
Well, he has a a uh a site thathas all those three close by.
He said he could actually be upand running in four or five
years, which is really fast.
And you know, but he still needsto get uh environmental
approvals, both from the fedsand and and from the province.
That's a really tough process.

(24:18):
So why couldn't we, uh whilestill protecting the
environment, have certainty oftiming?
Say once you get yourapplication and it's gonna be
processed within this time frameand and you know uh it's clear
and it's transparent and andthere's no delays.
Yeah.
You know, that would help agreat deal.
So certainty of uh of theprocess would make it easier to

(24:40):
invest here.
We don't have that right now.

SPEAKER_03 (24:42):
Do you feel that and like and maybe this is too long
ago, but like do you feel thatlike the mining disasters that
we've had that were such a bigdeal in like you know, 80s, 90s,
whatever that we've had, do youthink that factors into anything
that people an older populationmight still remember?

SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
That's a good uh question.
Because it probably would sinkinto the psyche area, the cult
fabric of the few.

SPEAKER_00 (25:00):
Well, certainly the Westway disaster was you know an
undermined mining.
You have to recognize we don'tdo a lot of under underground
mining.
It's not the old.
It's all surface uh mining anduh and it's very different uh
than uh in the past.
Uh you know, one of the thingsDo you think people know that
though?
No, they don't.
This is my this is my point.

SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
When you say mine, I think of Minecraft, like the guy
down in the cave with thepicture of the phone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
No, no, but it's mainly surface mining, uh quarry
mining kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 (25:28):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
And uh and here's the thing that uh I want your
audience to understand.
When you get a permit to uh do amine, you have to put a bond
down to remediate the siteafterwards.

SPEAKER_03 (25:39):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (25:39):
That's new.
Uh not new, but it's it's it'swhat's one of the things that's
changed.
Right.
Which means you have to returnthe site to its natural um, you
know, environment the way it wasbefore.
And it's been done in already inNova Scotia uh on several sites.

SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Well there was that one that it's a really popular
tourist spot up in Cape Breton,that lake that used to be a
mine.

SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a beautiful spot now.

SPEAKER_00 (26:00):
So if people understood that it you know it's
gonna be pack put back in tonature in an appropriate way and
there's money for the coolelement.
Don't you think wouldn't thatmake a difference?
They say, well, yeah, it's gonnabe in maybe, you know, disrupted
for a while, but it's gonna goback to its natural format.

SPEAKER_02 (26:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:16):
You know, that's that's something a lot of people
don't know.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 (26:19):
Cool.
I I want to ask, like, so soyourself is on the panel.
Like, who else is on this panel,right?
I was I was curious to kind ofknow like what other kind of I
mean, so obviously we're talkingabout mining and energy, what
other things are we kind ofpulling from that we think we
could really invest in here?

SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Uh well uh so uh you know we have uh uh uh a
cross-regional uh representationon on the panel.
Uh we have Scott McCain, thechair of McCain Foods.
So he brings the globalperspective, scaling
perspective, which we think isuh important to uh panel uh
discussion.
Um we have uh Kathy Bennett, uhwho was uh uh Minister of

(26:56):
Finance at one time inNewfoundland, uh before that an
entrepreneur, and now a venturecapitalist.
So bringing capital to theregion is gonna be kind of a big
deal.
Uh we've got Joyce Carter, theCEO of the um, yeah, fantastic,
yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:11):
That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 (27:12):
HIA for transportation, which is uh you
know so we've tried to putpeople together that uh that
bring some expertise andbusiness.

SPEAKER_02 (27:21):
And some diverse backgrounds there, too.

SPEAKER_00 (27:23):
Yeah, we're trying to try to make sure we do that.
And by the way, one other thingthat we're gonna do uh that I
think is important because Iinsisted on a small panel.
I didn't want to have 14 people.
No.
It's just too unwieldy.
Yeah.
Uh even seven with seven strongpersonalities, you know, it it's
uh interesting uh you knowconversations already.

SPEAKER_03 (27:46):
I no I noticed the afternoon Pink got left off that
though.
Oh I know.

SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
A pub consultant.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
One guy don't understand that, experts.

SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
So one other thing that we're gonna do, guys, is uh
which I think it's reallyimportant, is we uh we're gonna
uh uh uh develop an advisorycouncil uh for people who can
add specialized expertise.
So, you know, we've already kindof identified some starting uh
sectors that we want to pay alot of attention to.

(28:17):
Energy, big time, you know,we've got a lot of uh energy
opportunity.
Um we want to take a look atdefense uh with what the uh
government's committed to interms of uh government uh
spending on defense, it's gonnabe pretty important.
We're gonna look at ocean uh orblue economy uh issues, which
you know we we have a specialsort of relationship to the

(28:40):
ocean here that you know we wantto uh take a look at that and
and critical minerals.
So you know that there there maybe other things, but those are
the big what we call big bucketuh opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Okay, okay, you know, I mean one of the things
that I I'm thinking just justfrom the little bit we've
discussed today is education,right?
How do we get this so everybodyit does not become political
politicized?
Yeah.
We're getting accurateinformation, right?
You know, I'm still gonna gohome research and fracking
tonight, right?
I'm gonna send you some weirdemails at three o'clock if
you're wrong.

SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
I want you to do that, but only after you listen
to that podcast with Jim andLivingston.
Promise me to do that.
Okay, I'll do that first.
Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 (29:19):
But but like uh, I mean, education.
So how can we do it so thatpeople learn more about this and
they understand that I thinkwhat we need is a real public
buy-in to to invest in our owneconomy.
100%.
And everyone needs to kind ofget on the same page.
Yeah, we need to do stuff here,we need to get things moving,
uh, and we need to uh somehow uhuh collectively agree on

(29:41):
something.

SPEAKER_00 (29:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (29:42):
Right?
How can we get that?
I mean, you're here today,that's a great start.
I think a lot of our audiencewouldn't know.

SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (29:48):
But like, could we get to the workplace in the same
way that uh diversity trainingwould?
Like, I know that seems crazy,but like just to think that like
we we do educate staff now onmany levels.

SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
Right?
So how can we get there so we'rein every office?

SPEAKER_00 (30:03):
We we've uh we've been thinking about the sort of
what I would call acommunication strategy to run in
parallel to the work that we do.
You know, we we're we've askeduh a co to uh find a public
relations company to help uswith messaging throughout the
whole process.
And I'm hoping as a result ofthat, some of that will be
putting out information thatpeople don't know and try to uh,

(30:26):
you know, uh educate them toyour point uh about kind of what
the opportunity means.
You we want to quantify things.
You know, we want to we want tobe able to say that this
opportunity is going to createthis many jobs, that that that
that that the jobs will be kindof in this range of uh pay and
um and you know to me we have tocreate interest in what the

(30:48):
opportunities will produce.
And and and and hopefully youknow it it means how does that
you know the question that we'regonna have to answer is this
how's it going to benefit me asan individual?
Right?
That that ultimately that's thethe question that has to be
answered.
Sure.

SPEAKER_04 (31:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
And and and the best way to answer that is that if we
become more productive, if oureconomy uh you know is growing
at a at a even a national rateon on you know on a year in year
basis, we're gonna have moreresources to spend on services.

SPEAKER_03 (31:20):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
We're gonna have lower taxes.
Yeah.
So those two impacts are goingto happen to every individual in
the region.
Those two things alone.

SPEAKER_02 (31:30):
Right.
And then the other thing is thewaiting element how long we're
gonna have to wait for this oncewe decide to Yeah you know it's
not it's not gonna be overnightguys.

SPEAKER_00 (31:38):
But you know somebody said well you know some
of the things you can look atit's gonna take a long time.
Well you've got to startsomewhere.

SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
Yeah if you don't start you've got to start you
never get there.

SPEAKER_00 (31:48):
And and look and and and seriously if you look at uh
what Tim Houston's trying to dowith Wind West, you know the
first power coming off that it'sgonna be in the 30s.

SPEAKER_02 (31:57):
Two thousand thirties is it?

SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Yeah yeah okay that's soon enough that's pretty
good no but it could be you knowit's maybe if it's in the next
10 years it'll be great.
Yeah you know but but you knowit's not just getting the wind
uh uh uh sort of captured youhave to be able to deliver it
somewhere right we do not havethe infrastructure today right
to deliver that power anywhere.

(32:18):
Outside of yeah yeah so you knowone of the things that we're
gonna be looking at is thetransmission grid for Atlantic
Canada.
So we're talking about you knownew hydropower from uh Gull
Island in in Newfoundland we'retalking about wind power in Nova
Scotia you know we're talkingabout uh maybe new nuclear power
in in uh New Brunswick righttalking about tidal power which

(32:40):
is starting to come back finallytalking about you know wind
power on land we're talkingabout um you know natural gas
offshore onshore we've got itall we've got we we've got every
element of uh including hydrohigh hydropower with Mac dequac
right uh which by the way it'sgonna need like a nine billion
dollar investment to bring itback to you know standard right

(33:03):
so we got all this energy we weliterally are sitting on the
opportunity to become an energysuperpower and exporter but we
have to get an infrastructure inplace to capture all these
opportunities and bring them tomarket.

SPEAKER_03 (33:17):
So we're talking lots about energy and those
obviously take long-terminvestments lots that's the
that's the long game but Joyceis on your board yeah and we're
so you know she's obviously hershe's the entryway and the exit
of uh you know of Nova Scotiabeing you know this Joyce we'd
love to get you on the show nextyear.

(33:37):
Yes that's true we'd love tohave her on yeah so she anyone
who doesn't know Joyce is theone who is uh she's the is the
chair of the CEO CEO okay of ofuh the Halifax International uh
airport yeah I I see her asmaybe an opportunity where we
can maybe bring tourism toincrease tourism and get people
here.

SPEAKER_02 (33:55):
Well like the flights going to direct we were
all just talking about tr uhtrips to Ireland just before we
started here really quick I'mgoing to Portugal because of
WestJet foot of direct flight.
I'm literally booked the flightsthis week I mean what's cooler
than leaving Halifax and and andtaking a four hour flight and
landing in in in Gatwick rightlike or or or or some cool
European country that you'venever seen before.

(34:18):
So can I tell you a quick story?

SPEAKER_00 (34:19):
Yeah so I was on the founding board of the airport
authority and uh we negotiatedhard with the government to get
a good deal that was not easy atthe time but the whole purpose
of the original board was to seethe airport as an economic
engine you know especiallyaround bringing people in and

(34:40):
and and and and being able toship goods by air and and uh you
know it's been twenty five yearssince the uh it became run the
airport was run by uh acommunity board and it's
accomplished what it's set outto do.
It is an economic engine.
There's almost 5,000 peopleworking out at the airport today

(35:00):
I think the last time I lookedand it generates uh a couple
billion dollars of uh economicactivity because it's you know
we're shipping stuff in thebellies of the plane right and
and and now we're we've we'vewe're we've got a really pretty
good airport.
You've looked at they've they'veinvested a billion dollars in
that airport since it was takenover that would have never

(35:21):
happened under the federalgovernment ever.
So now we have a trueinternational airport uh Joyce
and her team are doing a greatjob expanding the routes and and
and building the traffic becauseit's not easy.
It's not easy to build trafficand some of it's still going to
be seasonal obviously butnonetheless we're now more
directly connected than we'veever been to the world.

SPEAKER_02 (35:43):
Yeah with with some of the cheapest flights in the
world to Europe.

SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
Right you know and like if we need to send sea if
we want to send seafood toEurope, it's gonna go you know
some of it's gonna go in thebelly of the plane that's what
is the lobster beneath me that'sbetter than there's tourism and
so that's why I was saying theentryway and the exit because
there's tourism obviously peoplewho want to come here they have
to come through our airport andthen explore our region.

SPEAKER_03 (36:07):
But then there's also the amount of like we have
the best way we could help localentrepreneurs is get their goods
to not just Nova Scotians but toyou know Europeans and whatever,
right?

SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
So I'm working with the uh um Bermuda Air.
Okay.
Just uh not for pay just becauseI have a business interest in
Bermuda and I want to make surethat direct flight that they've
established stays there.
If if you need me to like youknow inspect those flights
anytime Don you need me to godown there and help you out
Don't you know how cheap it isto go to Bermuda?

(36:40):
Oh it's crazy.
Two two hours away?
I think it's like three hundredbucks.
Yeah it's a few yeah it's likethey have great packages by the
way if anybody's in interestedin going this beautiful place to
go.
Yeah.
But you know I've already beentalking to them about uh they
have restaurants that arelooking for seafood for the
restaurants.
The grocery stores are lookingfor fresh seafood and they're

(37:02):
looking to get away from theU.S.
Well if we got a two hour flightcoming from Halifax and we've
got planes now flying therethree times a week.

SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Right, yeah what can you see what the opportunity is
totally put the airport down toSanbro and we'll just fly the
Oxford right from the dock.

SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
You could do that good luck.

SPEAKER_03 (37:24):
Yeah so with kind of with some of those things the uh
like uh is there anything sinceyou've built this panel yeah you
obviously have an idea of whereyou want to go but do you think
there'll be any surprises oflike what could come from here?

SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
Uh there's always going to be a surprise.
Uh you know um you know one ofthe things that uh one of the
challenges uh guys that I reallywant to uh mention is that uh
you know we're looking at thisas a a pan Atlantic um sort of
uh exercise we think there needsto be a lot more collaboration
cooperation in the region solet's get back to energy for

(38:01):
just for a second.
No everybody's got a big idea interms of energy basically and um
you know but you know we can'tfund everything at the same
level.
The federal government can't dothat but one of the things they
might be able to do is help uswith infrastructure to put the
transmission facilities in toget whatever energy is is being

(38:21):
developed to market.

SPEAKER_03 (38:23):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (38:23):
That that would be a big contribution.
But only if we collaborate youknow if everybody's fighting for
their own little peace in thisregion we only have two point
six million you know peoplewe've got to we've got to figure
out how to work together better.
And I that's gonna be one of thechallenges of the panel to see
if there's a way of of gettingthat to happen.

SPEAKER_03 (38:44):
Okay.
Yeah the uh I you mentioned thefederal government so this is
kind of a good segue actuallyfor this is um I'm curious to to
know what Don's overall opinionof how uh you know the feds have
done this year.
I mean obviously we had aleadership change and I I feel I

(39:05):
know not everyone does but Ifeel that that leadership change
actually has been made drasticchanges in in our government
this year.
How do you feel they've beendoing so far this year?

SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
Well personally I like uh I like uh what Carney's
done uh I think he's uh he'sviewed internationally as being
uh much stronger than Trudeau uhyou know more more substantive
uh he knows what he's talkingabout yeah and uh you can see
that at the G20 meetings whereyou know with the absence of the

(39:39):
US Canada played a veryprominent leading role in that
and it shows uh that peoplerespect our our prime minister
and you know uh he seems to besigning these trade deals with
with people every other day he'sjust in Dubai and like you know
now whether or not it's real itremains to be seen but the fact

(39:59):
of the matter is he's sending avery strong message to the U.S.
You know that it that's whathe's doing.
He's saying you know what guyswe have we have options and
they're not as maybe as good asthe option that we have with you
but we we need to diversify ourour trade.
And if the US comes back andwe've got all these other trade

(40:19):
deals in place, what does thatmean for Canada?
It means we're going to bebooming you know so he's putting
in place the building blockseither to you know to get
through the Trump administrationor you know and by the way the
economy if you think about it inCanada is not tanky.
It's it's not it's it's it'sit's not as good as it was but

(40:41):
it's not terrible.
You know so I I I look at thosetwo factors and say you know
he's given confidence to thebusiness community for sure.
Uh his major projects approach Ithink is long term uh going in
the right direction and uh youknow obviously he's being
attacked by uh the other side ofcourse that's natural yeah but I

(41:05):
think if you look at the pollingnumbers his personal popularity
is pretty good in in Canada anduh it's because he's just he's
calm competent and and and andsort of very steady what he's
doing.
You know and I I love what he'sdoing with Trudeau with uh
Trump.
Yeah he's not he's not beggingthem he he's you know Trump is

(41:29):
coming to slowly the realizationthat things like lumber are
really costing the U.S.
economy a lot of money startingto back a little bit away from
the tariffs you know I I thinkthe longer we wait the better it
is for us.
You know we should not rush intoany agreement with them and and
especially with the midtermscoming up.

(41:50):
It's unraveling down there itfeels I I I kind of I kind of
agree with that.
I just think that you know thelonger we wait the better deal
we're gonna get yeah so that'shis strategy I think I actually
really agree.

SPEAKER_03 (42:05):
I actually really like what he's doing.
I think what I also like aboutit is he doesn't come across as
like the typical politician thatum just makes a big deal about a
bunch of things.

SPEAKER_00 (42:15):
Well the thing that he's doing really well do you
see him attacking the oppositiondoesn't know and that's
something I really respect.
And and I'm I'm I really likethat I really like that part.
He's very respectful toeverybody and um like people
need to take notice.

SPEAKER_03 (42:30):
I agree I I think I I what I've been calling him I
mean people ask about it he'sjust very quiet.
And I mean he's competent buthe's he's quiet and when I when
I say quiet I don't I mean it asa compliment because it's like
he's not loud barking like likeyou said not insulting anybody
not making a bunch of noise yeahhe's quietly flying around the
world and making you knowpotentially making these deals

(42:52):
or whatever yeah and I thinkwhen it all kind of comes
together I a lot of thenegativity that people still
have because of whatever reasonpeople have their issues with
the liberals and the lastpartisanship is always going to
be there.
There's partisanship it just youknow there's some people are
obviously holding on to it alittle bit much and all that
stuff right he's a good call tocenter though I think for a lot
of people he's a great call tocenter and I think the long game

(43:15):
people are going to be like ohwow yeah I'm hoping I I I I'm
hoping so I like I I I like alot of the stuff that he's done.

SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
One of the things that I'm not as happy about is
you know he he he said that hewas going to you know reduce uh
the size of government I thinkhe's been too gentle on that.
Okay.
And we need to be moreaggressive on that.
And you know the it gets back tothe issue of productivity.
Uh you might want to read a bookby Donald Savoy uh that he put

(43:45):
out recently on on governmentsize and one of the things he he
describes is he he says thereare poets and plumbers it
working for the government.
And when I we did a podcast withhim said what do you mean by
that?
He said well the plumbers arethe people who take care of
serving Canadians.
Right.
The poets are the ones who makeup the policies uh to make life

(44:08):
you know what it is in Canada hesaid right now in this in the
federal government there are 70percent who are poets and only
30 percent who are plumbers andto me that means that we have
too many poets too manypolicymakers not enough people
serving Canadians I like thatanalogy I like I like that I got

(44:29):
that too I got nothing againstpoets either I think they're
great.

SPEAKER_02 (44:31):
No we need poets we just maybe we don't need 70% of
the too many too much poetry.

SPEAKER_03 (44:36):
Yeah no he has he has the data to back that up by
the way he does have a plan toreduce like government and
public sector but it's mostlythrough attrition I know but so
you're saying it's not quiteaggressive enough kind of thing
here's the thing I would saybring me in like what's his
plan?
Like uh I don't really fullyunderstand like through
attrition what's he trying toget accomplished my

(44:56):
understanding and you couldcorrect me if I'm wrong but my
understanding is he's gonnaearly retire some people and or
package some people out that arealmost ready or whatever and
some about it through attrition.
Through attrition okay that'sit.

SPEAKER_00 (45:08):
And to put it in perspective I think the last
time I looked there were 360,000employees of the federal
government.
Now I'm I'm gonna make thisgeneral comment about every
level of governance a lot youknow if you don't do sort of a
review of your a serious reviewof your operations on a regular
basis every number of years youget a lot of fat.

(45:30):
A lot of fat and I can guaranteeyou that and I'm gonna pick a s
a low number 15% you could lose15% and it would make no
difference to what Canadiansreceive.

SPEAKER_02 (45:44):
Isn't the CRA like the most bloated it's ever been
that's what I thought I heardwe're not going to talk about
CRA right now we're gettingclose to you guys are great we
love you leave us alone nextyear.

SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
Yeah but go on but but just to get back to uh that
for a second so you know AndyFillmore who you're hoping to
have on your program you know uhhe he ran on the idea of of uh
fiscal responsibility right andand what he wanted to do was to
do an audit of the operations tofind out where the savings and
efficiencies could be andbelieve me they're there yeah

(46:15):
100 percent but they you won'tfind them unless you look and
council apparently do not wantto do that.
Now why would they not want todo that?

SPEAKER_03 (46:24):
It's a great question because it sounds like
they need to cut about 10 pointfive percent well like that is
the amount they are proposingfor a tax increase.

SPEAKER_00 (46:34):
Well you know do you know how many employees uh work
for the municipality?
It's like 5,000.
Very close to 5,000 now LondonOntario city of almost exactly
the same size they have 3,000.
Oh wow you want to ask why whydo we need so many more here?
What what do we have more hills?

SPEAKER_02 (46:55):
What what is it?
I don't know I mean is that isthat because like bus bus system
like we might do differentthings than what they do there
right?

SPEAKER_00 (47:03):
Our bus system doesn't even compare to their
bus system in terms ofefficiencies.
Yeah.
Their bus system costs themunicipality way less it because
it's properly run.

SPEAKER_03 (47:15):
That's a whole other rant I would go on too because
when I ran for council in 2020,I wanted to pick apart the uh
Metro Transit Oh that's a wholeother thing that's that's
another thing.
Another topic for another pushthat's a taxi later exactly um
so what do you what do you thinkthe so obviously federal

(47:35):
government like you're gonnahave to have all levels of
government involved in this in Imean I know it's I know it's a
federal kind of working panel.

SPEAKER_00 (47:41):
I'm not really interested in talking to
governments.

SPEAKER_03 (47:43):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Honestly and I think how are you going to get your
message up to you no no no but II said this to Sean like this is
not a uh we're gonna consultwith everybody who has an
opinion.
Yeah you know we're gonnaconsult with people who can make
a difference economically youknow and that's uh you know
that's the difference it's not aniving approach which I have
nothing to nothing bad to sayabout that.

(48:05):
It was meant to be a broadconsultation of everybody, make
sure everybody had a voice inthis this is economic
development you know and we wantto talk to people who who
actually can make a differenceon economic development.
You know so um you know we'll betalking to everybody like you
know the economic developmentagencies and we got a lot of

(48:25):
them we got we got more than youcan shake a stick at in in this
region.
We want to talk to the businesscommunity uh through the
chambers and trades of uh boardsof trade of course uh and we'll
you know we'll be seeking fromthem really something different
than what it what's the bigopportunity.
We'll be seeking from them whatpolicies need to be changed,

(48:47):
what regulations need to bestreamlined to make it easier to
do business here.
So that's gonna be another sortof initiative.
We're gonna be speaking to allthe um various sectors directly
about what they see as their bigyou know economic opportunity
and what needs to be done torealize the that opportunity.
So we're not gonna be in everychurch hall listening to the you

(49:11):
know the you know the variousgroups who have an opinion.
Yeah they can write me they canwrite me and and you know uh
I'll I'll look at it but we'rewe have a limited we we we we
only have basically 10 months.

SPEAKER_03 (49:24):
Yeah like uh we've given a very short period of
time we have to be selective onwhat how how we do the consults
of the information and you'reare you just gonna like are you
gonna hand it off to governmentor are you gonna publish it
public publicly so we can gothrough it?

SPEAKER_00 (49:37):
It's gonna be publicly released.
We're not we're we're we're notwe're not gonna the government i
will see it at the same time aswe release it as far as as far
as I'm concerned.
That's the best way to do it.
That that's that's thetransparent way to do it.
And you know we'll live or diebased on you know what we come
up with.

SPEAKER_03 (49:55):
Right.
Yeah great do you think thepanel will have anything to say
about like affordability andthings like that?
Or is it just focused oneconomic development?

SPEAKER_00 (50:05):
Well you know there's obviously other impacts
of uh you know one of the thingsthat David and I have talked
about both in the book and inour in our podcast is you know
uh we need to grow under controlyou know especially from a
population point of view we needto be able to services to keep
up with the with the growth andyou know David and I argue about

(50:27):
this all the time I think it'smaybe you know one and one and a
half percent population growthwe can manage because we've done
that in Canada for 60 years.
Three percent is probably toomuch.
You know so you know that's athat's a policy decision uh and
but one of the problems one ofthe challenges that we're gonna
have is that if some of thesebig opportunities economic
opportunities are to realizewe're gonna need thousands of

(50:49):
jobs.

SPEAKER_03 (50:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:50):
Like I w somebody told me uh Kathy Bennett was
saying that the Gull Island umproposal they're gonna need
10,000 people to develop thatthat next hydro project.
And uh so where are those 1000people?
They're not they're not inNewfoundland today.
Right.
They're not there today todayand so that's just one major

(51:12):
project you know so uh the wholeissue about uh there's gonna be
a challenge be between our laborrequirements to get these big
ideas uh you know operationaland then managing you know the
the housing issue the medicalhealth issue the school issue
you know the we have to plan forthis now some of these things

(51:34):
are going to take a while todevelop so we have time to get
to sort of ramp up but you knowthe problems of growth are a lot
better than the problems ofdecline like I've always had to
have growth versus decline.

SPEAKER_03 (51:47):
If uh if you were talking to someone like young
today they're in high school andthey say they're feeling really
optimistic about these projectsthat are coming up yeah what
would you tell them hey this iswhat you should focus on this is
what you should go to school forbecause you're gonna be able to
get a job boom like in right nowit's a dangerous thing to say
these days because things arechanging so quickly but what's
popular today could change.

SPEAKER_00 (52:09):
But I would say this and and I think that this is you
know this is this is something alot of people have talked about
I like I really encourage peoplewho have uh at you know sort of
um uh an inclination to skillsskills training to do skills
training we're gonna need somany electricians and so many
plumbers and so many you knowpipe fitters and like that

(52:32):
though those are goodprofessions and I would
encourage young people who whoare not really interested in
going to university but arelooking for a good job.
We're gonna have so manyopportunities uh in those areas
that I and we have a reallypretty good uh community college
system to train people in theskills thankfully so we have the
you know the institution inplace uh and I would uh

(52:55):
encourage parents by the way inparticular don't force your kids
to go to post secondary ifthey're if that's not their
interest or their you know whatthey're interested in doing like
allow them to find uh you knowanother another um kind of
employment uh uh and and I thinkskills skill trades are really

(53:16):
you know underrated we don'tneed them yeah yeah um the uh I
guess for like there's a lot ofI I'm I guess like the the
buy-in for this is that umbecause government's the you
guys are gonna the panel's gonnabe released and everything but
you gotta make sure people arelistening to it.

SPEAKER_03 (53:35):
There's a lot of government mistrust.
Yeah how do you think that thewhat do you think that the
government can do like toppriority to change to get that
trust from people.

SPEAKER_00 (53:49):
Well I think you know uh the major project uh
approach that the government hastaken uh I think provides
credibility that they're willingto do big things.
That's a start.
And um you know they've got thethey've identified the system uh
mine in New Brunswick as a majorproject issue.
You know that sends a message tothe province that mining is

(54:11):
good.
Right.
You know that that that's youknow there's still going to be
lots of opp bulimia I canpromise you the opposition is
forming already against thatmine for sure.
But you know I I think thatthat's what the government is
doing to identify the majorproject is a step in the in the
right direction.

SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
So politics really need to get out of the way on
this one.
Well is that what you think?

SPEAKER_00 (54:34):
I think that they they they need to facilitate
some things.
In in Atlanta Canada we need anenergy major project.
Is it Wind West alone or is itsome combination of you know uh
hydro from um uh Newfoundlandand um maybe nuclear like you

(54:57):
know Nuclear Brunswick soundsawesome by the way I was
thinking about that earlierNuclear Brunswick cool name I I
uh I I actually I I'm a I'm afan of nuclear I have been for a
long time I think it's uh youknow it's uh it's reliable
obviously and it's uh uh youknow pretty cle pretty uh clean
and uh you know we've been sortof for years and years kind of

(55:23):
brainwashed into thinkingnuclear is bad but you know the
the nuclear um sort of equipmentthat Canada built is been has a
has an an amazing safety recordwe're not Chernobyl and like
like a like our nuclear reactorsare the best in the world like
you know so we've got a recordthat goes back how many years

(55:45):
right we've never had a problemnever and and and ask the people
who are living around PointLepro if they're afraid of
nuclear they're not afraid ofnuclear at all doesn't they've
lived with it for 40 years.

SPEAKER_02 (55:57):
There's been no issue you know anyway so I think
I think something something uh acool project to get uh you know
hire a couple people to kind ofgo and talk about these myths
and facts and explore theseplaces a little deeper and and
and talk uh well yeah you guysyou guys can do some of this
yeah you guys could like in aTikTok format we'll get some
dancing involved and some songsand everybody will like it then

(56:18):
right dancing nuclear is notthat bad nuclear we've I've had
I've had dozens of people reachout to me already and say you
know uh how can I help?
How can I help you how how howcan people help?

SPEAKER_00 (56:30):
Yeah that's a good how how can people help by
speaking up in support of thethings that need to be done.
Be part of the you know majoritywho are no longer silent.

SPEAKER_02 (56:41):
I think one of AP afternoon points themes this
year have been you know let'spush let's let's believe in our
economy let's believe we can doit as a as a maritime province
and and we can succeed and weare just as good or better than
anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 (56:55):
Yeah we need the positive talk and we need the uh
you know we need the ambition.
Like you know like the ourregion has not been as and as
ambitious as it should be Ithink I mentioned this on the
last podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (57:07):
You did yeah and I mean there's two two ways
there's a facade like a vision'sa good good thing and then other
people just might have a adifferent thought on life,
right?
Maybe they just don't thinkabout this stuff and maybe they
need to just kind of open opentheir minds up to some some new
new ideas and new possibilities.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:24):
Mike here's one of the challenges demographics are
playing against us right now.

SPEAKER_02 (57:29):
We have uh the oldest population in Canada and
you know I'm in the I'm in theuh I'm in the category of of
being in the older c uh groupyeah and you're in also in the
agree the fact that you're stillworking this hard right a lot of
folks I mean you know will getinto their uh later years they
start to relax a little bit yeahI know and but but what does
that do to your attitude aboutdevelopment?

SPEAKER_00 (57:49):
You know if you're not if it doesn't affect you you
don't need a job any longer andand and you don't need to worry
about things anymore you'regonna you're not gonna be
supporting you know thedevelopment of a a mine two two
kilometers down from your heart.

SPEAKER_03 (58:02):
You know what Don Don I totally agree with that.
That's the same thing that whenwe rolled out the the daycare
like program yeah I saw so manypeople saying like I didn't have
that when I was so who cares?
Right.
And it's like you know what ifwe cured cancer tomorrow so we
should just not cure cancerbecause you didn't have the
cancer cure back like five yearsago.
Right.
But that's a really stupidmentality.

SPEAKER_00 (58:22):
It's selfish it is that but you know we have a a
higher percentage of of thatolder demographic who really are
out of it in terms of being inthe job market.
Right.
They don't have the sameconcerns about that about the
future of the you know the theprovince or the region.
So that plays into it.

SPEAKER_02 (58:39):
Like you know I was at a house party the other week
and and people I don't youwouldn't believe how many people
tell me they don't read the newsanymore.
Mike I mean you know it's it'slike it they're like and and
they'll tell you they'll say Donthey find it too stressful.
And I don't find it stressful.

SPEAKER_00 (58:53):
Well I'm glad you raised that uh issue Mike
because we have never had such aweak media as we do today.
It's completely absent.
It it doesn't do any criticalthinking it doesn't you know
like no wonder people aren'taren't listening or watching
anymore.

SPEAKER_03 (59:12):
Podcasts are the strongest I've formed they're
growing and you're able to talkabout stuff like this.

SPEAKER_02 (59:16):
Podcasts arguably aren't research journalism and
sometimes they're not and andand I mean I I I could talk
about that for a long time so Idon't want to talk about it
because I'll probably saysomething wrong.
But uh but uh about I mean I amdisappointed uh uh state of
where journalism is and where weare and seeking information and
seeking truth yeah um you knowand uh and and working working

(59:38):
together I said so the othertheme of the show this year was
kind of bringing people intogether and and uh so can can I
give you an example of how weakour our media is sure the
announcement last night wasimportant I think maybe in the
realm of things not thatsignificant I haven't had one

(59:59):
journalist talk to me about it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:01):
Wow except for us swoop in afternoon point the
bozo gang here guys journalistsI didn't know no we're not
journalists we're far from itfar from it we like to drink
beer and ask questions I wouldhave said different things so
that you know what so thatactually be that's a good point
that one of the questions I wantto ask is like how are you guys

(01:00:22):
going to get your message outand how do you help Atlantic
Canadian like how do youinterpret those things that you
guys are

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:28):
to talk about so that the typical average Atlanta
Canadian can understand.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:33):
Well I actually hope to do some public opinion
research um uh early in the newyear to kind of gauge where
people are on some of the thingsthat we're looking at and then
and maybe use that as a metricgoing forward to see if things
change over time.
As I said, there are attitudinalissues that we have to overcome
in this region.
So we have to set the benchmarkto where those attitudes are on

(01:00:55):
some of these key you knowissues related to development,
you know.
And and and and clearly there'sa big educational component.
We've talked about this peopledon't have the facts they're
making their minds up on onwrong information from his
comments.
Mike uses signs to determine howthings are I just read road

(01:01:18):
signs and obey.
But but but in terms of you knowone of the things that we hope
our communication uh consultantwill help us with is a a strong
social media.
Yes you gotta get people wherethey're at you know and that's
what I watch your announcementon YouTube.
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:35):
Yeah and I I saw you on LinkedIn.
But like you know I don't I meanhow many people would have seen
that announcement and not evenregistered?
Oh and I mean you know and andno offense to you I think it's a
great thing.
I think it's the fact thatpeople don't see how much it
closely resonates with them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:52):
Well that's what I was saying before.
You know if you can't connectwell why is this important to me
who cares?
Yeah I I and I 100% get that andand until we can you know uh
kind of get the functionaleducation of Atlantic Canadians
up in terms of how an economyworks and how a good economy is
good for them, you know, they'renot gonna make that connection.

(01:02:14):
You know but but if you say youknow we're gonna be able to hire
more doctors we're gonna be ableto hire more teachers um and and
it's not gonna cost you any morein your taxes to do that, then
people might say that's probablya good thing.
You know?
And why is that going to happen?
Because we're gonna have morerevenue coming in to be able to
do those things without relyingon taxpayers to pay the bill.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:37):
I think you need some really good poets to get
this message out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:41):
Do you know any last question that I had um is uh how
what does how does Dawn foresee2026 for for Atlantic Canada?
That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:57):
Well if you read my book Matt I'm very optimistic.
I'm very optimistic I'mparticularly optimistic and I
think I mentioned this to youbefore the last time is that you
know we've done a lot of workwith uh the startup communities
and the incubators andaccelerators across Atlanta
Canada and one thing has comethrough uh really clear is that

(01:03:19):
the ambition of the today'syoung startups are different
from my generation.
Oh yes they are they arethinking only about you know
national international marketsand that's all good because if
they can build stuff here andsell it somewhere else that's
going to be really good for us.
Great.
So their ambition is really goodand the other thing is that uh
you know and and this is a youknow something that I really I'm

(01:03:42):
excited about is that thepercentage of the startup that
are coming from newcomers to ourcountry is really important
because those people have highrisk tolerance and they have
high work ethic.
That combination is reallysomething that we've kind of
been missing in this region fora while.
So we now have an ambitiousoutward looking group of younger

(01:04:05):
generations in business creatingbusinesses.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:09):
I've seen this first hand by the way like I can I can
see it and you I know you cansee it in the in the in the
environments we work in that wecan see a no a more ambitious
generation all of a suddenthat's just kind of with with a
attitude they're happy to bethere right now that's what's
made me very optimistic and it'sone of the reasons that we wrote
the book because we were seeingthese changes that we didn't

(01:04:31):
notice before.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:32):
You don't you don't see it until you get into it
obviously a little bit.
Because the all these youngpeople are working you know
behind the scenes.
You know I I I I joined thecreative destruction lab uh
recently and uh I had had myfirst experience uh a couple
months ago and I was just reallyblown away by the ideas of these
young people and the theambition that they show and how

(01:04:52):
well organized and how smartthey are it just made me think
wow and they're and they'rethey're staying here to do it
here.
Right.
That's the big thing.
They're not going somewhereelse.
Now they might go somewhere elsewhen somebody says oh that's a
good idea I want to buy them.
But up until that point it itall stays here.
Right?
And so that gives me greatencouragement about what's going
on.
I really hope that ourgovernment levels get their

(01:05:13):
fiscal house in order.
I think it's disgraceful what'sbeing done both at the municipal
level and the provincial levelum you know uh you know we're
we're burdening the future withthe debt and the debt is costing
us a lot of cash that could beused for other things.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:30):
So do you think the recent budget federally is a
good investment though?
Good do you think that's gooddeficit?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:38):
I think there was a need for uh spending beyond you
know a balanced budget.
I would like to have seen itoffset a little bit more
aggressively.
There are programs being done bythe federal government right now
that are not doing anything foranybody.
Right.
They could be completelyeliminated and nobody would know

(01:05:58):
that it made any difference.
And like you know trading howsome some of the current budget
is being used to some newspending rather than finding new
money to spend on new things iswhat I would like to see a
better balance of and I justdon't think there was enough
aggression on that side.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:14):
That's fair.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:15):
That's very fair.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:16):
So that's that honestly that's everything I had
we uh I'd like to cheers to youwe'll do one thing because it's
going to be 2026 is over in umand uh we'll be do we roughly
have two episodes left for youhere so so what's your new
year's resolution we'llcompletely change it up well I
hadn't even thought about thatMike it's a little too early I

(01:06:36):
usually think about that atmidnight on the uh last day of
the year okay um you know whatI'm gonna do more of the same
more of the same all right soanother episode of the afternoon
pint hey cheers we hope to seeyou again next year and we'll
we'll check in thank you verymuch this was great thank you
thanks guys enjoyed it