Liz LeClair - Breaking the Silence: NDAs, Consent, and Gender-Based Violence - Afternoon Pint

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Cheers.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Welcome to the Afternoon Fight.
I'm Mike Tobin, I am MattConrad.
And who do you have with ustoday?

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Liz LeClaire.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Liz LeClaire.

Speaker 3 (00:08):
All right.
So, liz, what do we have here?
What do you do?
What do we have here?
Yeah, what do we have here?

Speaker 1 (00:15):
That's a really good question.
So I am oh my god, where do Istart In order of importance?
Rank importance I am the wife avery proud wife, a military
spouse of a naval officer.
Um, I am the stepmother of twoteenage boys.
I'm a fundraiser by professionand a shit disturber in my

(00:38):
infinite, apparent limit amountof spare time.
So I do a lot of politicaladvocacy and advocacy work
around gender-based violence,sexualized violence, workplace
safety, you name it.
And in particular, I'm avolunteer with an organization
called Can't Buy my Silence,which is trying to get
regulation around the misuse ofnondisclosure agreements.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, so we'll jump into that.
I saw your article today youknow about a release, so maybe
just tell people who haven'tseen that article just a little
bit what that was about.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, a friend of mine, jennifer Graves, was an
employee, is an employee.
She's been on long-term leaveof Dalhousie University and was
assaulted twice by a professorin the medical school and at a
work sanctioned event.
She disclosed that thathappened.
Then she also reported itthrough the union and, as part

(01:31):
of the settlement agreement, wasrequired to sign an NDA.
Um, for your listeners whodon't know what NDAs are, uh,
they were originally out of thesilicon valley in sort of like
the 90s, around the time of thetech boom, to stop people from
sharing proprietary informationwhen they would jump from one
company to another, and it washappening really frequently.
They've now proliferated intolike every aspect of our lives.

(01:55):
You sign, you have a content,so they're that young.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
They're only from the 90s with Silicon Valley.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Pretty much.
I didn't realize that thecurrent template.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
yeah, I remember when I worked at another company, I
had to sign ndas because I wason an advisory board where I had
to go up with like the ceo andother people and everything, and
so there was things that werecoming and I had to sign them.
And that was really like youknow, I never signed one until
that point, kind of thing.
But I kind of felt like theywere always around.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
But I guess it makes sense because I grew up in the
90s, so it feels like everythingwas always around me there may
have been a version of it, but Ithink the real, the current
version that we're using now, iskind of more from that era
Crazy.
Yeah, they're in everything.
So you can sign an NDA as partof your employment agreement.
If you check your contract,you've probably signed something
saying you won't discloseproprietary information.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
That's right, but then they've evolved to
harassment.
They've evolved to harassment.
They've evolved to everything.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, absolutely everything Accidents, insurance
claims, anything that basically,if you are receiving any kind
of settlement, there's usuallyan NDA attached to it.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
The Nova Scotia.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Human Rights Commission has one embedded in
their agreement template.
Pretty much every lawyer hasused one.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
And they're usually to protect powerful businesses
or protect companies or protectindividuals.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, when you think of
NDAs in the original context,around proprietary information,
of course, if you went from oneplace of employment to another
and you shared, say, like atechnology that was made at
Apple with something at Google,you've given away information
that you've learned in oneworkplace In a privileged
situation In a privilegedsituation.

(03:28):
What they've now done isbasically said okay, so we're
going to settle this complaintwith you, but it's contingent on
you signing a non-disparagementclause, meaning you'll never
say anything bad about uspublicly.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
And an NDA saying that you will never talk about
this ever happening.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Right.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
The one with the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission
actually was the one that Irefused to sign.
It was 2020.
What went on there?
So you don't want me asking,that's okay.
I mean people could look myname up in lawsuit and I'm

(04:11):
currently in a civil suitagainst one of the former
founders of Clearwater Seafoods.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
I think you posted about that actually.
Yes, you did, and he was in alot of high-powered positions.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about one of the
wealthiest people in theprovince.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
There's not a lot I can discuss right at the moment
just because it's in litigation.
My own experience of reportingworkplace harassment, sexual
harassment um my own experiencesaround sexual assault and
seeing how badly the systemfails you said that was just.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
That was just in 2020 , is it?
I've?

Speaker 1 (04:56):
I filed my complaint in 2020 2021 okay, um, I started
experiencing this in 2013 whenI first moved back here.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
Okay, I'd been living away for 10 years.
Is that what like a personalexperience is that?
What kind of propelled you tobe inspired to do this type of
activism, or has that alwaysbeen in you?

Speaker 1 (05:17):
I think my mom.
If you were to ask her, she'dtell you I've always, always,
always ended up doing advocacywork in some level, but this
work with can't buy my silencehas been particularly close to
the heart, because almost everysingle person I've met that has
filed a complaint or reportedaround racism, discrimination,
ableism, you name it.

(05:39):
Um, they've been asked toeither sign an nda or have been
or you know.
A lot of us get threats.
Whistleblowers get threats ofdefamation.
I've had multiple defamationletters sent to me over the last
.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
So is there usually a pretty nasty ultimatum if you
don't sign the NDA.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, okay, so I'll give you this Jennifer scenario.
So Jennifer reported this,these assaults, to Dalhousie,
and they agreed to settle withher to compensate her for the
harm done.
But she signed an NDA, whichshe outlined in the letter that
she posted last night, that shewas basically not allowed to

(06:18):
report to Occupational Healthand Safety, she wasn't allowed
to report to regulators, shewasn't able to talk about her
settlement with the police orlaw enforcement.
So you can imagine if you'retrying to hold someone
accountable and you can't talkabout what happened because you
signed an NDA, and if youdisclose what was in the NDA or
what you signed on to, you loseyour compensation.

(06:41):
And a lot of people make theargument that NDAs a lot of
women in particular.
They say oh well, you've gotthe money now why do you need to
keep talking about what'shappened?
But I think people make themistake of thinking these are
large amounts of money we'retalking.
On average, most settlementsare somewhere in around $10,000.
It barely would cover the costof your legal fees.

Speaker 3 (07:01):
And it almost almost.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
You can't live off of that no um so jennifer actually
offered to return hercompensation and dell refused oh
, wow um, she, she has foughtthem for the last 10 years and
her example is really, I wouldsay, terrible, horrific example
of how ndas are being used tocover up really terrible crimes

(07:26):
and that the universities,public institutions, nonprofits,
charities, employers all usethem Because what they want is
for it to go away.
Here's your money.
Please stop talking about it.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
Well, everyone would famously know.
If you don't know what an NDAis, everyone would know that
that's what got Donald Trumpinto some hot water.
Exactly, stormy Daniels.
Or the Hockey Canada scandal,right?
Or the Hockey Canada, yes,exactly.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
So that was actually one of the things I got really
irate about was and I know a lotof people will probably
disagree with me, but thatHockey Canada scandal came out
and then the premier and themayor had to decide whether or
not to allow the world juniorsto go ahead here in halifax and
they decided to let it go ahead,regardless of the fact that
this institution has been systemsystematically covering up gang

(08:11):
rapes yeah hockey, canada andworld juniors have there's.
That one story is certainlysomething, but we know there's
multiple cases of where theteams have gang raped women wow,
and it's been covered upthrough settlements, so it's.
It's one of those things whereyou know, when we talk about the
solution to gender basedviolence, it can't just be that

(08:33):
women are putting their hands up, screaming, saying like this is
wrong.
This is where we need maleallies and men, and especially
men in positions of power,saying you know what this isn't
right.
You know this is going to suckand there's a lot of contracts
that are going to be broken, butthis is the wrong thing for us
to do is to host the games backin the same city where this

(08:54):
first incident of assaulthappened in the first place.
This is a really upliftingconversation.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
You know what I feel like.
I'm getting real with it.
I like it I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
We got real fast, yeah.
But the NDA thing, like I wasactually sitting in the
legislature a year and a half ora year ago, or whatever.
I was there because I wasactually being thanked for my
volunteer work, oh right, but Ihappened to be there when
Elizabeth actually SmithMcCrossin, elizabeth actually
Smith-McCrossin.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Submitted the NDA.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Submitted the NDA thing to have it changed.
She's an independent, so itwasn't really going anywhere,
unfortunately.
But I listened to what she hadto say and I agree.
Honestly, right in that momentI was like, yeah, this makes
sense.
It's ridiculous that people usethese NDAs to just hush people
up.
I mean totally, totally, don'tget me wrong.

(09:47):
I understand the the businessside of it.
I understand it's like hey,we're gonna pay you enough money
so that it doesn't damage ourreputation.
But it's like you know you'reyeah, you're hiding crimes,
you're buying people's silence.
You're buying people's silencelike hence what?
the name of the organization andit's just one of those things
where you're just kind of likeyou know the, the person who's

(10:10):
in that position, and I mean,you would know this better than
I would, but it just myunderstanding is like they're in
such a situation where theythey feel like, well, you know
what, I'll just take the moneybecause I'm I'm I'm hurting them
a little bit, I'm gaining alittle bit and I don't have to
have my name dragged out, youknow, in public, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
No, I mean, I think there's a bit of a
misunderstanding.
I think as well, because it isvery it's hard for people to
understand it, because part ofthis is that it's done in
silence and behind closed doorsright.
So how would you know what'shappening?
So, basically, what happened?
You know one of the things.
So one of our co-founders ofthe campaign is Zelda Perkins.
She was the first woman tobreak her NDA with Harvey

(10:52):
Weinstein.
So she lives in London or justoutside of London and Zelda
broke her NDA with the fullknowledge that there was a
possibility that they'd comeafter her for the money that
they had paid her.
It was a possibility thatthey'd come after her for the
money that they had paid her.
It just so happened the timingit was the right time in history

(11:13):
with the right amount ofmomentum um harvey weinstein was
a prolific assaulter of peopleand and his companies had
covered it up.
But zelda has a really good line.
She says you know, thecompensation you receive is for
the harm done, right period yeahand and it's only because there
is no better mechanismavailable to us at this point.
You know, restitution or or uhis is financial.

(11:33):
Um, some people try restorativejustice or they go through
mediation and trying, but veryrarely people who are predatory
have any.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
They don't think they've done anything wrong
harvey weinstein still claims,he never did anything wrong same
as bill cosby back in the dayright like, yeah, yeah yeah, um
so yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Restitution, financial compensation, is the
one tool we have so the moneyyou're receiving is is to say
I'm sorry this happened to you.
We're acknowledging it.
This is our restitution.
The nda is an added layer ofwhat we often refer to as
institutional betrayal right.
You've reported, You've beentold that, yes, we believe you.
You're given this money, butthe one thing you're never

(12:18):
allowed to do is ever talk toanybody again.
And some of these NDAs haveincluded things like you can't
talk to a counselor.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
So how do you get past things like you?

Speaker 1 (12:24):
can't talk to a counselor.
Wow, so how do you get pastsomething?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
You can't talk to a counselor, you can't talk to a
therapist, you can't grieve andyou can't get yourself through
this.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah, yeah and I think one of my colleagues,
christina Fifield, has been veryfront and center.
She was an advocate with theMass Casualty Commission.
She's done a lot.
She's talked a lot about thispublicly.
You know she often says one ofthe things that's also really
terrible is that if in adefamation case or if you do
break your NDA, they will tryand use your counseling records

(12:55):
to prove that you've broken yourNDA.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Oh, wow, now I got to ask you this, like, cause, I
mean I just think from.
I always think Canada is betterbias, but but no, but honestly,
like, like, and when it comesto ndas, like I mean, are we, I
mean, on par with what america'sdoing, or no is canada better
or worse?

Speaker 1 (13:11):
way worse.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Worse canada is worse than the us by a long shot.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
So right now, prince edward island is the only
jurisdiction that's passedlegislation to ban ndas okay, um
props to PEI.
Yeah, small but mighty, we'lltake it where we can.
But the thing is is that in thestates I think we're now at 27
states, including Idaho Is itIdaho?

(13:36):
That's a state right.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
Or is that a city?
Yeah, so the Democratic statesin the US basically no, a lot of
Republican states too aregetting Nndas.
Yeah, it's shocking, yeah 27states plus uh.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Federally, there's a ban on federal employees being
forced to sign non-disclosureagreements in cases of
discrimination amazing.
Um, so we're dragging our assin canada, yeah ireland as a
country has passed a bill, um,and then the uk right now is
debating it as well.
Um, so right now, canada isactually really lagging.
It's quite really shockinglybad, especially considering that

(14:09):
you know we have had some ofthe worst examples of where this
has been used to cover up.
Like Hockey, canada was such amess.
We thought at that point forsure, the federal government and
the governments would all Ithink a lot of people thought
Hockey Canada was just going toimplode.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
That was going to be it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
It's amazing how resilient these organizations
are, right.
The one thing you'll notice isthat you're not hearing a lot
about what's happening with thatinvestigation.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
No, no, nothing.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Since you brought it up today.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
I didn't think about it until I was read that
whenever it happened.
And that's a non-profit right.
Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
So that woman can't speak.
She's been NDA'd.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
So she'll never be able to tell her story unless
they release her from it.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
And your friend was recently released from it.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, yes, so we.
Basically, I got notified inNovember that all of a sudden,
dalhousie had changed theirsexualized violence policy on
their website and that all of asudden, there was this line
included that said we will notforce victims of sexual assault
to sign an NDA Not that theywon't do it but, they just won't

(15:11):
force them to.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Okay.
Does that mean they reverse thepast in the sense of other
people could?
No.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
I don't know.
I mean there's been no officialstatement from Dow around what
they're really doing and they'vedone it very secretly.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
I mean, they should be a leader in this.
You would think yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Especially considering.
Kim Brooks, who is thepresident of the university, is
involved with a project calledthe Watershed Project legal
project and they in 2017, made avery strong declarative
statement that NDAs were beingabused, with victims of assault
and harassment Right.
So I don't know what she'sdoing or who's giving her advice
, but it's bad legal advice.

Speaker 3 (15:45):
It's bad PR advice.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
I would encourage her , if she listens to this podcast
, to change her mind.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
We'll add her in this one.
Yeah, you feel free, feel freeto reach out.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
We've had three, I think three.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
DAL, employees, professors, whatever on this
podcast.
We got a little bit ofattention from Dal here.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Okay, yeah, maybe you'll have better luck than we
have.
They won't even meet with us.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
That sucks.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
It does.
To me this is like it's part ofa bigger systemic problem,
which is like I think there's alot of PR firms in this city and
other cities and a lot oflawyers and PR firms tell
organizations just be a grayrock, just disappear into the
background, ignore the problemuntil it disappears because,

(16:32):
like you said, people haveforgotten about hockey.
Canada right right the longer.
You just ignore the problem.
Well, you know, yes, thegeneral public moves on, but the
person who's the victim andtheir family and friends have to
live with the outcomes.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
There's a science Like there is a science.
I don't know if you.
I know you do, but I don't knowif you ever watch.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Uh, it's always sunny in Philadelphia but they have
the 24 hour news cycle thatepisode.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
And it's like, honestly, it's true, people's
memories are so short, yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
Right, it's crazy, like even just now.
I mean, you know we're in themiddle of political stuff going
on with our country.
Trump yeah, not even just.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Trump.
I'm talking about just ourfederal stuff.
Yes, with our federalgovernment.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
We went from no joke two months ago, the liberals and
the approval rating being at16%, to now.
Just the poll vote today is at42%.
Yep and the conservatives aredown in like the mid to low 30s,
like and the conservatives aredown in the mid to low 30s.
There's already a seven-pointspread, or whatever now Depends
on the poll, but yeah, all ofthem now, man, all of them now.
Seriously, if you look at theones today, they vary, but the
liberals are in the lead inevery single one of them at this

(17:34):
point, yeah, so that's just twomonths ago from people
literally saying like fuck Trump.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
But you say 24 hours news cycle Donald Trump like oh
my gosh, it's just you know thethings he can, the ability.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
He's a machine gun of a mess Unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Unbelievable, but he's, but he's, you know people
think it's chaotic, but it isstrategic, right, like I wrote
about this on one of my substacks, you know, like flooding
the zone or like overwhelmingpeople, and he's really good at
distraction, right.
Like dangling this shiny thingover here and distracting you
with the stupidity.
Dangling this shiny thing overhere and distracting you with

(18:06):
the stupidity, but meanwhile,behind the scenes.
There's a bunch of legal thingshappening that he's keeping you.
He has no problem keeping theattention on himself while all
these nefarious like.
The thing is that what reallyscares me with politicians is
it's not the politiciansthemselves, the really loud,
bombastic ones, it's theirstaffers yeah, and the policy
makers the beer?
well, the bureaucrats, you know,but more like the oh, like

(18:27):
chief of staff and, yeah, thechief, I would just tell you,
for me here in nova scotia,there is a really disturbing
level of centralization of powerhappening within the premier's
office, whether it's theconservative party, the ndp or
the liberals.
I don't like it.
There's a lack of democraticprocess around how decision
making is happening.

(18:47):
You know people people Iactually heard I can't remember
who was talking about this isthat there's this we forget.
There's a need for friction,like the difference.
The reason why there's adifference between private
sector and government is thatfriction is important to slow
things down just enough for youto be able to have a look at it
and make sure that you're notmaking the wrong decision.
It's a silver second thoughttype of thing well, you know,

(19:07):
when you're a venture capitalist, you're a tech founder,
whatever, yeah, iteration andchanging things all the time
chaos is actually.
It can sometimes be a really umfor foundational part, part of
like building something, butwhen we're talking about the
institutions that impact people,you have to be careful and
methodical about how it happensand the reason why, consultation
is important is that the peoplewho are most impacted by the

(19:30):
decisions you're making shouldhave the most feedback.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
That is not easily accessible.
I'm sorry, I'm totallydistracted.
There is a cat on a leash.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
We're at Oxford.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
I know Oxford Tap Room.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
That's a really great segue just to quickly say that
we actually are at the OxfordTab Room and actually Liz was
actually saying earlier how muchshe likes this place because
they let pets here.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
And then there's a cat that comes in on a leash.
I love this so much.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
I'm sorry the other thing is, I brought popcorn on
course just before this episodeand it's just killing me staring
at it here while we're talkingoh, you can eat it.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, no, for sure, and just quickly.
I mean, like last week you hadthe matcha and they didn't have
it.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
It's already all gone , so I didn't get to try it so I
had their like.
It's not a spruce beer, butit's an evergreen beer.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
That's what I got too .

Speaker 1 (20:20):
Oh, you got the evergreen.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
I like it.
This is my second one.
Actually, I had one while I waswaiting for you.
I can tell Okay, they also havethe nut brown, but they also
have the PB&J.
I had that last week.
And that's their raspberrywheat and their nut brown.
Mixed together, it tastes likea peanut butter and jelly
sandwich.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
It's really good.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Okay, yeah, sorry, that was a real wide swing from
one area to another.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
That was a really wide swing, yeah, so people
listening to this are like.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
And then she said about a cat.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
This popcorn break was brought to you by Garrison.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
But yeah.
So I guess kind of, rewindingback to the before the cat
situation.
But yeah, so kind of, I guess,back to how people have short
memories and stuff.

Speaker 1 (21:03):
Like my brain, like I'm like a squirrel, hundred
percent, that's like.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
it's like oh yeah, no yeah, um, but yeah, so the uh
with the, whether it bepolitically or whether it be
events in whatever, like peopletend to forget.
You know, um, people wereliterally saying you know, like
fuck trudeau and all this stuff,and now all of a sudden
trudeau's gone and all of asudden that poor whoever's
making those slags is out ofbusiness.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
I think at this point , maybe a hundred percent, maybe
.
I think he's done All right.
He's done All right, he's donewell.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Yeah, he had to get a solid, good run.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
Yeah, he did Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
There's one outside like where my kid took the bus.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, oh my gosh, oh man, yeah, I just.
I mean, it's a vibe for sure,it's a choice, 100% I won't go
there.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
I like to make the because of who they are as a
people.
I like to make the joke thatthey've now created their own
sexual orientation.
They're just attracted toTrudeau.

Speaker 1 (22:07):
That's true.
Well, yeah, now he's apparently.
I think I saw a picture of himshopping at.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Canadian Tire.
I think everybody wants to.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
It's the most singles like single divorced father
move of all time.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Let's go buy that Roomba.
That's the best place to getyour kitchenware, though I tell
you?

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Canadian Tire is a good sponsor.
Are you guys sponsored byCanadian Tire?
No, no, no, Canadian Tire, youneed to sponsor the podcast.
That would be awesome.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
That would be cool, isn't it?
Yeah, we could do that.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well combined forces between my fundraising and your
podcast will be all right thereyou.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
So, yeah, I also wanted to talk a little bit
about you.
I know we talked about things,but you've been involved in also
just a lot of Speaking of thecat.
That's where I was going, thankyou.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Speaking of the cat, good segue.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
No, yeah, because you were also involved in the SPCA,
so you've been involved in alot of things where you're kind
of looking out for other people,whether it be the SPCA, the
Charity Report, the QE2Foundation, whether it be the
SPCA, the Charity Report, theQE2 Foundation and you did stuff
with Dow, I think fundraising-right, yes, I have been around
yeah yeah.
So you really have kind of.

(23:15):
It seems like you've dedicatedmuch of your life to kind of
looking out for others.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Oh well, that's a nice way of putting it.
So I think we were just talkingwith a gentleman downstairs.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
So I did my undergrad at dow in political science and
that was early pete, just incase anyone wanted to know yeah,
she met early pete, he's ohhe's he's a character maritime
legend, early pete, yeah, yeahso we were chatting.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
He's infinitely younger than I am.
I think I'm a good decade aheadof him.
But um yeah, so I did myundergrad at Dal and I had this
big plan I wanted to go work forthe UN, um and I was gonna do
you know, all kinds of funthings and save the world, and I
actually got really lucky.
I was doing my master's ininternational public relations

(24:01):
and I was a huge dork, so I alsodid Model UNs and one of the
women that was speaking at aconference we had actually
worked at the World Food Programand she offered me an
internship for a summer.
So I went down to New York forfour months worked for them,
found out.
I hate PR mainly because Ican't do anything other than
tell the truth.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Yeah, that's the opposite of what PR is.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
It really is no offense.
I know some of my friends arePR people, but no offense.
But yes, sanitizingconversation to make it more
palatable for the general publicwasn't my idea of a good time.
So I ended up being responsiblefor the walk to end hunger in
New York City and I found that Ireally loved the combination of

(24:46):
doing something tangible andthen seeing the results in real
time.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
How did that help you get roped into New York city?
Do you want to help me withthat organization?

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, I got this internship at the world food
program and their headquartersis in New York.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.
Okay, I had to connect the dotsthere, no that's okay, that's
super interesting.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
No, it's okay.
I was, yeah, I was at a modelun conference nerding out and,
uh, the speaker offered me a job, which was great, so so cool.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
You guys have done well at the uh un model un.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, I was.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
I was pretty, I think I the only thing I ever got to
do was like ecuador, so I didn'thave a whole lot of power, but
you know, you can be creative,um and uh, yeah.
So I mean, from there I justrealized fundraising was my jam
and I loved being able to tell astory and then getting
convincing people to give tothat cause.
What I didn't end up loving wasthere was this really insidious

(25:37):
dark side.
You know the two sides of thecoin.
If we're going to go for theStar Wars, you know the dark
side.
The dark side of fundraising isthat there's a lot of people
with a lot of money and a lot ofpower who take advantage of the
situation because fundraisingis a highly feminized profession
, a lot of young women whoreally care about things and a

(25:57):
lot of the donors were older andhad a lot of influence, and
they take advantage of thesituation well, yeah and uh.
I had many experiences where Ithought I was having a
conversation with people aboutthe work I was doing and it
ended up not being that.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Interesting I've been assaulted.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
I've been harassed.
You know.
I remember we used to do eventsfor one organization up at Fox
Harbor and you know half thestaff were basically told this
is what you do and keep toyourselves, because by the end
of the night all of these menwill get quite gropey.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Oh, geez Well yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
So I know it's, it's, it's, it's funny, you know it's
something that everyone knewabout but nobody really talked
about.
And then, when you know, andpeople have different feelings
about it with Me Too- Me.
Too.
Certainly I think there areparts of it that were harmful.
The naming and shaming ofthings definitely, I don't think
helped men feel that this was aliberatory movement.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
We talked a little bit about that yeah.
Well, she was talking thedifference and I'll let you
explain it no, you go ahead.
Well, no, it's your thing, butshe was explaining the
difference.
It was the difference betweenshame and guilt.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
Thank you so yeah, she was explaining that so you
can explain that Sure?
Yeah, I mean, I think one ofthe big problems with movements
any movement, whether we'retalking about racial equity,
gender equity, whatever is thatsometimes we focus too much on
guilt.
Like you should feel bad thatthis happened.

(27:33):
Guilt is not a healthy orhelpful emotion to have, because
most people can't move pastguilt into actual action,
feeling, uh, you know, or sorryguilt, sorry guilt can be a
useful emotion.
I gotta redo this okay, allright, let's start from again
okay so guilt can actually be auseful emotion, because people

(27:56):
so you know they often talkabout like feeling guilty about
being a white person and theprivileges you have.
Guilt is something that you cansay okay, I feel guilty about
this, but I I, you know, maybe Ididn't have any say in how I
was born and where I started,but I can also be a part of the
solution.
Shame is the emotion that's nothelpful.
Shame doesn't help anyone doanything.

(28:16):
People that feel shame it meansthat they're not talking
through it, they're not workingthrough the problem.
Shame it means that they're nottalking through it, they're not
working through the problem.
I think some of the problemswith liberatory movements is
that sometimes there's a lot ofshame involved, right like shame
on you oh, big time.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
That's a huge problem and I think I think that was
something that really made a lotof people left go more center
or even more right over the lastfive years.
I agree, over the last fiveyears I big time feel that and
that's when you said that I waslike, oh yeah, 100, because like
there was parts where where Imean I'll talk more about
america than canada here for asecond, but where people, folks

(28:49):
on the left side there, I meanthey got pushed right.
I mean they were they?
They weren't left enough, theyweren't upset enough or they
weren't doing all of the thingsor checking all the boxes.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
The performative, performative stuff doesn't help,
right right it's boxes.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
The performative, performative stuff doesn't help,
right, right it's if you're andI think that's why dei has
collapsed so spectacularly isbecause, yeah, and that sucks
too, it does suck because Ithink there are some really
important things that werehappening.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
But when it becomes a check mark or a check box that
you're trying to do, as abusiness, yeah versus a values
alignment or trying to changeculture.
Yeah, I think we're having thesame problem with gender-based
violence, um, here in thisprovince, and shifting the
narrative is that I don't thinka lot of men see themselves as
part of the solution and I wassaying downstairs uh, it's like

(29:33):
racism can't be fixed just byblack people saying that it
exists.
White people have to want tochange the culture in order for
racism yeah, to change yeah so Ithink um, I think it's the same
thing, right, I think?

Speaker 2 (29:46):
we have these spaces and places where women and it's
tough, because what you justsaid there I could jump on that.
Even, like you said, whitepeople need to fix it, and I
mean well, everybody needs tofix it like, in a sense, yeah,
but that's exactly, it's all.
But that's the trouble.
When we start talking aboutthese issues, it's like nothing
you can say is perfectly right.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
No, we need space for imperfection, it's really tough
.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
We need a lot more space for like did these people?
I mean, I'm someone here.
Here's a flaw about myself.
There's a 90% chance I'm goingto pronounce your name wrong and
I like you and I'm a goodperson.
I don't want to pronounceanyone's name wrong and I like
you and I'm a good person.
I don't want to pronounceanyone's name wrong, but I'll
pronounce everything wrong thatI might see in the run of a day.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
He's going to call you Linda later.
That's fine.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
That's actually my mom's name.
You can call me Linda if youwant to.
I'm terrible with names.
I'm terrible at this.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
But these aren't things where I'm a bad person.
These aren't things where Iever want to be do any malicious
harm to anyone.
These are things that I gottawork out.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Maybe pick up a phonics book or a memorization
course or but also, at the sametime, you can just be humble
about it and just be like oh,yeah, I messed up, right it's.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
It's no different than, if you like, misgender
right right you say somethingwrong and then someone corrects
you just like oh, I'm sorry, butthe problem at, though, was
like people weren't getting thechance to mess up there were.
There were so many instances wesaw in the last few years where
people got pushed into beinglabeled as something they were
not, and then they began toalmost live that role.
Consequentially, they gotpushed into a corner and they

(31:11):
were told they were somethingthat they didn't feel that they
were, but they said okay, ifthat's what you think I am,
that's what I'll be.
I think that's the case for somepeople.
So yeah, I think that's.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
I think it certainly happened more than once and I
think like, and that that's oneof the things.
Like you know, I considermyself like I don't know.
I always like to say I'm in themiddle, but in some cases I'm
very left on some things and butit's.
It's one of those sometimeswhere it's like sometimes you're
just like not left enough andI'm not someone who I'm stubborn
enough that you know you can'tpush me anywhere.

(31:41):
But I've seen people who I waslike I thought I was a little
bit more aligned with and thenall of a sudden I'm like they
start saying things and I'm justkind of like yeah, I mean, I
think they got pushed right theygot.
It was like someone was likeyou're not left enough, so
you're just right, right.
And then then all of a suddenthey're just kind of like, well,

(32:02):
this side's not really treatingme all that well and you know,
I'm just going to go over here,I guess.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think like we were talking about this
downstairs as well, I think theright I think your friend Pete
was saying this and I think it'strue is that the right's done a
really good job of creating abigger tent.

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
And I think the left has done a really bad job of
inclusion ironically.
And it has been a bit of anOlympics to kind of like who's
the most virtuous, who's themost oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
So I mean, that's a challenge to the left.
It's like if someone is on yourteam and they're rooting for
you, let them in.
Yeah, right and in perfection.
I mean, I think my husband's areally good example of that.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
I mean so.
He's grew up in rural PEI inRustico.
His parents are coming from asmall town, you know, and he
lives with somebody who espousesvery vocal values around
certain things.
But the difference is is thatwe're in relationship with one
another, and when I say inrelationship, I mean like so
we're doing that right now.
We're building a relationshiptogether by having a

(33:06):
conversation.
It's so easy on social media tonot talk to one another.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
We yell at each other .

Speaker 1 (33:13):
So I think what we're missing is the relationship
building piece.
I think what the right's done areally good job of is building
relationships.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Yes, I agree with that.
It's a thing that I of isbuilding relationships.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yes, I agree with that, right.
Yeah, it's.
It's a thing that I think isreally missing, and I think also
pete.
I feel like pete should be onthis podcast he's gonna listen
to this.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
He told me he's gonna be on a future show.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Here you go, well he was also saying you know, like,
um, what is, what's the response?
And there isn't one right now,it's just fracturing, right yeah
, fract yeah.
Fracturing into smaller pieces,and I think you know people say
center is not far enough left.
But I think you know, likethere are a lot of people that
are just not comfortable withmaybe being where you're at.
But where are they Like, whereare they in the journey?

(33:54):
There's a journey for all of us, right?
So to me, gender-based violence, intimate partner violence,
we're not going to solve it inthis province unless we are
having these conversations withmen.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
What are the first steps for men?
Do you think I mean that's ahard thing to ask?
No, I think this is a greatstarting point.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
You're both offering a platform and an audience of
people that might listen to this, who may not have had this
opinion before, and then,hearing this, we'll be be like
you know what?
Liz leclair is not a raginglunatic who's like running
around because I think, I thinkthat's the other thing.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
I don't know she's been nothing but crazy.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
The whole time it's linda.
Yeah, I mean, I think that'sthe other thing is in politics,
it's easy for politicians topaint the opposition as fringe,
yeah Right 100%.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
So I think, if we can center things in relationship
like this is about relationshipsthat we have with our employers
, relationships we have with ourcolleagues and the people
around us Like how can you havea relationship built when you
can't talk about what happenedto you?
That, for me, has always beenat the core of this.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
That's the core of those NDAs.
For sure.
It isolates people.
How do you ever solve theproblem?
It isolates people.

Speaker 1 (35:08):
It is putting them in a dark corner and saying just
go away.
That doesn't help people heal.
No yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
And when we first kind of connected and we were
trying to get you to come on theshow.
I haven't seen much released inthe last couple months but uh,
up to that point there had beena lot of see.
I mean I don't know if it's uh,I mean one is a lot, one is too
many, but oh no, there's a lot.
There was there was.
It seemed like there's a lot ofyeah, you saw like spousal

(35:41):
murders.
Yep, that happened just in likea six, eight month span or
something like that.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, yeah, something like that and actually in one
of them was.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
One of them was a past guest and someone who's
affiliated with us was Steve.
I was actually with him on hisday one of his 99 journey and I
was sitting there at a moosehead game with him and he got a
text and one of the victims wasthat woman in dark.
He knew her.
He got a text saying like thisis what happened like I guess
her ex-husband just showed up ather house and shot her and shot

(36:13):
himself, yeah, yeah yeah, itwas so so I mean going back.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
So what's?
What's the problem here?
We got untreated mental healthproblems, probably deep with
that dude right?

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Yeah, I'm sure I think you have to be a little
bit like.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
History of family violence.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah right.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
He probably witnessed it when he was a child, and I
mean, are there chances of andI'm not calling this, I don't
know the case, but, like youknow, are police taking these
calls seriously when they happen?
Right A police taking thesecalls seriously when they happen
.
Um right, a lot, of, a lot ofwomen don't report to police.
Yeah, because, frankly, youknow, well they come, they go,
well they also are like if theydidn't put a hands on you.
We can't do anything about it.

(36:50):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean that,that's yeah.
So so what do you do there,right?
So you're like, how does thisperson get out when they're
trapped and they don't knowanyone?

Speaker 1 (36:57):
we.
We don't create a lot of spacesfor women.
To say this feels dangerous,but I also love this person and
I still want to figure out howto help them right sure we.
We create places for women toflee to, we create programs for
them to get treatment, but themen end up either in jail and,
like you know, that's a toughthing to flee and leave your

(37:19):
life, because that's her lifetoo right, you know Exactly why
do you have to leave, especiallyif you have children.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Because this guy or whatever right, why do you have
to leave?

Speaker 3 (37:27):
That doesn't make sense and, honestly, in these
types of situations, is jailreally the right place for them?

Speaker 1 (37:34):
No, I mean rehabilitation doesn't happen in
jail.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
If you ever wanted to feel out dogs here.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
I think the dog just saw the cat and we're having
another popcorn break, yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:45):
But I kind of feel that, like, if you have I mean
don't get me wrong, there'sthere are definitely just some
guys out there that are just apiece of shit.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
There's some.
There's generally pieces ofshit, human beings everywhere, I
know, but I'm talking aboutlike in in.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
You know, 99.9% of the case, it's men who are
abusing women.
So, realistically, I mean, yes,there are probably just guys
out there that are just piecesof shit.
However, there are probably agood portion of men who need
help and they don't know how todo it and they don't have

(38:21):
emotional intelligence, whateverright, and I would argue that
putting them in a jail cell withcriminals is probably not going
to fix this problem right it's,I think it's.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
It's symptomatic again of like what we were just
talking about, like ndas are oneway, but the other way of
getting rid of a problem islocking people up and saying put
them here and then we don'thave to see them, and deal with
them.
It's the same thing, right.
It's the easier, lesscomplicated but infinitely more
harmful choice I actually so.

(38:52):
This is going to be, and Idon't know how your listeners
are going to feel about this.
So, if you read the 3,000 pagereport and if you read a lot
about the um mass casualty,gabriel wartman, a person whose
name does not get mentioned veryoften.
He experienced severe abuse asa child.
He witnessed horrific things andI'm not making an excuse for

(39:14):
what he did yeah but people callpeople monsters and we forget
that monsters come fromsomething something has happened
to someone they are creative,yeah I mean, he was a child at
one time.
Um, I grew up.
I grew up in scarborough,ontario, when paul bernardo was
on the loose so I was 14 yearsold when he was going around

(39:35):
grabbing girls.
It was, but also too, like youlook at his upbringing and
there's, there's a story there.
I'm not saying that thesepeople, it's not an excuse for
behavior, but I think we oftenforget it's easier for us to
point at something and say thisperson's a horrible monster of a
human being than to say whatare all the ways in which we
failed everyone for this tohappen?

Speaker 3 (39:56):
do you think that that's people's way of like,
kind of saying, like, almostlike disassociating, saying like
that can never be me, becausethat person's a monster, of
course.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Yeah, but like I mean , what I think they should do is
go back in time and get peopleat a younger age, Help men find
inner peace.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, Like you know, that's a huge thing.
Teach them about talking aboutfeelings.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
This guy right here found that himself, he found
that through reading, he foundthat by accident almost right
you know how do I calm down myangry thoughts.
You know I want to punch thatguy right now, like you know.
Like you know.
But like I was, I never wantedto be abused with the women, but
I, you know, carry anger withme, right?
You know we all do right.
How do you, how do you seethrough that?
How do you understand your ownemotions a little bit better so

(40:38):
you don't go out and you hurtsomebody?

Speaker 3 (40:40):
yeah, right, yeah.
So I heard something oninstagram, just not like I think
it was like two days ago andlike I think I may even send it
to you and take this with theright context.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
I do think it's relative, take it with the
assumption that this is comingfrom a good place everyone
listening like take this fromthe right context.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
It's real.
It speaks to something, though,and and what it was?
It was this guy who said thatmen are associated with two
emotions anger and fine.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Wasn't it Bill Burr Was it.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Bill Burr.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
It was Bill Burr.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It was a brand new Hulu special.
It just came out last week.
Is that what it is?
Yeah, he said, there's only twoof them.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
Okay, it was yeah because Bill Burr is one of my
favorites.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Anger and fine.
I'm allowed to be angry.
Anger and fine.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
But because he said something like because basically
he's like, he's like all thoseother emotions he's like, we all
feel those other emotions he'slike, but we're not allowed to
talk about them because that'sgay.
Yes, Right, and take that withthe right context.
No, I know, but that's theproblem like.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
It just makes me really sad because I think what?
What the deaths of the last sixmonths have been has been an
expression of pain of oursociety.
We, I think it's.
I think, as nova scotians, wereally have to sit and look at
the last nine people that havedied due to intimate partner
violence.
Um, and okay, so I should alsosay, like, sometimes people find

(41:59):
this really confusing, likewhat's the difference between
gender-based violence, intimatepartner violence, domestic
violence?
So gender-based violence islike the big umbrella that we
use for everything Harassment,assault, you know, catcalling,
whatever.
All of this stuff can fit underthat umbrella.
Intimate partner violence issomebody that you consider to be
your closest like partner, likea spouse or you know, whatever

(42:23):
um, domestic violence is sort ofinterchangeable, but there's
also a term that we now usecalled femicide, which is that
women are being targetedspecifically.
Right, because one of thedeaths actually was a was a man
that killed his mother of thenine so like it's not just
partners it can be children,male but male children, and I
think again, it's this deaththat we're seeing is an unex, is

(42:47):
a sort of an outcome ofunexpressed anger and
disappointment and hurt andfeeling disconnected from
society.
And we need men to heal, becauseuntil men heal, these deaths
are going to continue to happenand I would love to figure out
how to be a part of that,because I want men to be
healthier.
I have two teenage boys.
I want them both to be able toexpress their feelings.

(43:07):
I don't want them to feel likethe only way that they can
really get out their frustrationis to either hit something or
hit somebody.
You know, like I it's.
How can you cry, how can youjust like, can you cry, cry, can
you cry about something that'shurt you?

Speaker 3 (43:24):
that's okay yeah, it's not so I'm putting air
quotes here.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah it's such an antiquated, outdated and I
think you know it's also likethe fear of the other is such a
big proponent of how we like theway the trans community is
being isolated and sort oftargeted.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
It's just an easy way for again, sort of like it's I,
I when I see the transcommunity like targeted.
I see you're seeking somewhereto put that anger or that you
know, and we all, anger andmisunderstanding are always
aligned yeah, and that's thething they don't understand,
because they don't.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
You know, you never grew up.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
That way you don't feel like putting on a dress
today.
What?
What does they want to do it?
Like you know, like that's thecore thought, right, like and
that's where it starts.
And then you get weird.
And then you, you're a straightman and you're scared.
You're like, oh god, like youknow, I don't want to
accidentally take a man home,like that that's what a straight
guy thinks.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah, right, I appreciate you both being so
honest.
No, no, but that's how astraight guy is like wired right
.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
You know, and so then you're like you've got to take
some time and really see andunderstand.
This is way beyond you and yourarchitect of thought and the
way your genetics were built andthe way you were designed right
.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
This is somebody with a completely different pile of
problems from you yeah right,and also just someone who wants
to live their life in the mostauthentic way possible, would
you?

Speaker 2 (44:47):
rather see them not be upside the earth.
Are you really that evil?

Speaker 1 (44:51):
can I ask you a question, though, like do you
feel like it's a little bit ofjealousy?
That like straight men areseeing trans people and being
like, wow, this person'schoosing to do something really
brave that I might not be ableto do.
I sincerely.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I mean, I appreciate that question Me personally.
I don't think I'm jealous and Ithink that in all honesty, I
feel really sorry for someonethat doesn't get to be their
true self.
I know how hard it is to beyourself when you're a straight
guy right.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
Yeah, he's a white Newfoundlander wanting to be a
rapper, there you go.
That's hard enough, right I?

Speaker 1 (45:28):
got my own complex set of things to navigate
through.
I can't even get through thatone, yeah, so there you go, but
like you know.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
So if it's hard for me just to navigate through life
as who I am, I was born.
I always wanted to be biggerand be good at football.
That was not a skill I everacquired.
Like you know, things like thatwere challenging for me.
I mean, I couldn't imaginehaving the challenges that
someone, someone faces that feltthey were born in the wrong
body yeah, right that that's abig thing for me.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
It's like I I'm always been kind of like even
though I never understood um,the uh, like the trans mentality
of what they have to go throughand what I didn't always
understand, that I still alwayslike, felt, like I stood for
bodily autonomy right.
I still felt you should alwayshave that right to just live
your life.
You know we have one life tolive and you should be happy and

(46:15):
, you know, want to exist andthe case is is that many of them
don't, because they can't bethemselves.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Oh, yeah, I mean, I think it's the same kind of
narrative that comes around whenwomen wear certain clothing.
It's like you know the thewhole thing when you've been
assaulted.
Well, what were you wearing?

Speaker 2 (46:33):
and how did you behave?
The question's been aroundforever.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
It keeps projecting the problem onto the victim and
not onto the person who.
I think we have to sort ofchange the script around.
Okay, well, not finger pointing, but what is it?
Why do we feel so comfortableperpetuating these stereotypes
about all of these people?
Right, and you asked me aboutintersectionality.
What is?

Speaker 3 (46:55):
what is it?

Speaker 1 (46:56):
and so I would say, like I came from a place, like I
grew up in scarborough in avery white, predominantly white
neighborhood, right and um, butsurrounded by lots of
communities of culture anddifferent communities of you
know, different people withdifferent backgrounds, and but I
was always very much in a whitefamily, living in a white
neighborhood, kind of whitepicket fence, whatever and I I

(47:18):
always thought feminists,feminism was just about women,
like how do we change men, getmen to understand?
And it wasn't until I startedreally spending time in
community with black women andwomen of color, trans women,
that they were like okay, you'rea woman, but you're a white
woman with white privilege,right, so there's a layer there,
right, that you take that andyou change the color of your

(47:40):
skin.
You change, you cannot not beblack right, you cannot not be
you know,whatever, and it's so.
When I say intersectionalfeminist, the reason I put that
there is not.
It's not for people straightwhite men to be like, okay,
great, she's an intersectionalfeminists.
The reason I put that there isnot.
It's not for people straightwhite men to be like, okay,
great, she's an intersectionalfeminist.
It's more for me signaling tothe people that I know need to
see that that I'm not just awhite feminist which is like a

(48:03):
white woman being like oh, Iwant the vote and the right to
do this, but fuck all you people, I'm, I'm good, I got through
the door I'm done it's.
It's about keeping that dooropen and bringing everyone
through with you because, but,at the same time, I have a
responsibility with theprivilege as I have to help
share that story and to explainthat I don't always do a great

(48:25):
job of it.
I fuck up all the time.
I make lots of mistakes we alldo, um, but the whole thing is
it's if we don't keep talkingabout it or being in
relationship with one another,then nothing ever changes.
Um, I think one of the thingsthat's really hard for me is the
people who have power, whorefuse to sit down and have

(48:45):
these conversations yeah rightpoliticians so.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
So back to the root of where we started this
conversation, like way back.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
Actually, just before we do that, I just want to
mention something, because youtalked about how the different
relationships that people havewith violence and within that,
and it can be mother, father,grandmother, whatever I just
wanted to mention, just bring upbecause we were going to be
doing this like a month ago,which was right around Nova
Scotia's holiday in February,which is Heritage Day, which not

(49:14):
Family Day, it's Heritage Day,which is an awesome holiday that
we have, which celebrates NovaScotians in our history, and
this year was Nora Bernard, andif you don't know who Nora
Bernard is, I suggest you goread up.
But you know the quick Colesnotes is she was an Indigenous
woman who was involved in theresidential schools and she was
actually a really like drivefrom nova scotia driving force

(49:38):
that brought forth the truth andreconciliation.
Like this started when theystarted digging up uh, the
bodies and stuff like that, likeshe was a big part of that
movement and uh, why I bring itup now is because she was
actually murdered by hergrandson in her home.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Yeah, when, decade ago, I think Wow.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
I think so.
Yeah, so it was maybe 12?
Holy shit, 10 to 12 years ago.
Yeah, it's untreated traumacomes out in horrific ways.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
And.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
I think the generations of trauma that
Indigenous communities havesuffered.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
That's what made me when you said that.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
That that's what made me kind of think and connected
that with that holiday.
Simple question for me just uh,ndas, um, so where?
What's our first stop in, ineliminating these?
Do you think what couldeverybody do?
What could people like us do?
Yeah, kind of help say hey look, we want to uh, do what other
countries and provinces aredoing and eliminate these.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
I appreciate that question.
There's a couple of things soyou can go to Camp by my Silence
.
Our website.
We have a business pledge.
So if you wanted to ask yourbusiness to make a pledge to
commit to not using so, I justwant to be really clear with
yourselves and the listeners aswell.
So we're not asking to ban themaltogether.
What we're saying is theyshouldn't be used in these

(50:53):
specific cases.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Yeah, 100%, it's different, like you were saying
at the Silicon Valley.
If I'm working on the new app,the private information is fine.
I can't go share that withGoogle.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
So we've asked the Chambers of Commerce and
businesses to consider signingthe pledge.
Again, this is not about fingerit's just saying we know we may
have used them in the past, butwe're going to commit not to
use them this way moving forward.
The other is that you can callyour MLA and there is a bill, I
think it's Bill 14.
Right now, the NDB haveresubmitted the legislation

(51:28):
which is outlines how we wouldregulate the misuse of NDAs, and
somebody sort of said to me youknow like why does it need to
be legislation?
So to me it's a lot likesmoking or like seatbelts.
Right, we knew that theyweren't good.
It wasn't good for us not towear seatbelts and it wasn't
good for us to smoke.
I mean like we're sitting hereright now today in a bar and

(51:50):
it's not filled with smoke.
When I right now today in a barand there is, it's not filled
with smoke when I was here inthe 90s in going to university,
this place would have been fullof cigarettes um.
So people had the option to gosmoke outside, but they didn't
because, it was easier for themto do it.
And when we talk about frictionright yeah sometimes we need
friction in order to makesomething less palatable so that
people will change theirbehavior.

(52:10):
Um, right now it's still soeasy to use NDAs and so many
people are still like notknowing what their rights are.
It's easy for a lawyer to putthis in front of somebody and
say, okay, just sign this andwe'll give you the compensation
for what's happened?
What we need is that to beregulated, because it's not
changing fast enough.
Every day that we let thishappen is there's more and more

(52:31):
and more and more people.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Can we put a link on the description if you want to
pledge or if you want to?
Is there?
Is there something where, like,people can just sign up and
have their name on somethingthat they're against this?

Speaker 1 (52:40):
yes, yeah, we have a petition that we're trying to
circulate.
Um uh, the other thing that youcan do is just talk to people
about it yeah um and share thepodcast share the podcast, share
with your friends, shareAbsolutely.
And I think, at the end of theday, also just like I really
need the premier as the decisionmaker on this- he's the one
that's holding us back, but whata beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
We got rid of this in Nova Scotia and joined PEI.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Right, the leader of Canada.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Well, we are in conversation with the New
Brunswick government.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
There you go, government I don't like being
seconded to New Brunswick onanything.
I give PEI a pass.
Pei's pretty cool man.

Speaker 3 (53:18):
They're alright, they're little.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
My in-laws and everybody we can't lose to New
Brunswick on this Nova Scotiansis a Nova Scotia-based show.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
We'll talk to Tim.
He was on this show.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
We'll figure it out If Tim would take 10 minutes to
sit down with.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
We'll talk to Tim.
He was on this show.
Figure it out, talk to him.
Yeah, we'll figure it out.
You know what, if Tim wouldtake 10 minutes to sit down with
us and have a conversation, Ithink his attitude on this whole
thing would change.
I think there's a lot.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
He's a brilliant guy.
I don't doubt it would.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
I think there's a lot of lawyers and PR people giving
.
He seems like a pretty decenthuman being, I look.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
I mean, I would say at this point, people think I'm
enemy number one at the premiereand the only reason I'm talking
into the internet is because hewon't sit down with me face to
face.
I think if he would sit downwith me face to face he wouldn't
find me so awful.
So, um, well, I found youpretty, I found you pretty,
pretty nice.
So far I've enjoyed thisconversation, all right.
Well, there you can pledge.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
We'll vouch for you, all right, and we'll pledge
Speaking about, I guess, ontopolitical and policy and stuff.
One question I want to ask youto get your kind of expertise on
is how would you coach thegeneral population to identify
like dog whistle type policies?

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Dog whistle.
Oh yeah, explain a dog whistletype policies.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
Dog whistle oh yeah, explain a dog whistle type
policy there.
Well, okay, so dog whistle isbasically um, you know, dogs can
only hear it versus you knowpeople, right?
Uh, so they use.
When they use dog whistle, it's, it's mega is a dog whistle.
People say make america greatagain, right.
And they're like, andeveryone's like yeah, let's make
america great, and that soundslike a good idea, america should
be great.
But then you ask yourself, well, when was America great?

(54:57):
Right, right.
And you go like well, whenthere was slavery.
Well, exactly.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
It's the thing it's like, so what was it?
Was Like how far back are wegoing?

Speaker 3 (55:13):
How far back are we going?
Like, when was America great?
Some might argue it was, youknow, between 2008 and 2016.
Right, that might have been thetime when it was great.
I don't know, but you know, Ifeel.
And I don't know if you agree,but I feel, even with all the
turmoil, I still think we livein probably the best time that
we've ever lived in terms of theability for people to just be

(55:35):
themselves and I don't know ifyou agree with that or not yeah,
no, I mean, like I can'tremember the name of the book,
there's a guy oh sorry, I justhit the mic um, uh, he wrote
about the fact that we havehumans have a negativity bias
and I've heard that before.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
We always think that we're living in the worst time
but statistically we are livingin those yeah we're.
We're on the precipice, though,so, like the next generation,
if we don't change some things,especially with global warming,
and obesity and other things.
They're not going to have aslong a lifespan and right, dog
whistle, okay, so good example.
Um, look, I'm not.
And for anyone who's aconservative out there, pierre

(56:11):
Palliev.
Whether or not I agree with him, I think one of the things that
worries me is how much he isplaying to a base of social
conservatives.
When he was asked about genders, he said well, there's only two
that I know of.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Right, male and female.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Well, that was him playing to a base.
That wasn't him.
You know, endocrinologists,pediatricians, scientists around
the world have all agreed thatthere's fluidity with gender,
depending on and so that's oneexample.
I mean, I think, other things.
You know how we talk about whois a freedom fighter the

(56:46):
Ukrainians and who is considereda terrorist.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
Palestinians?

Speaker 1 (56:50):
Yeah, you know, like I think you know um the ways in
which we use words.
I mean the way we I justmentioned about gabriel wortman.
We call him a monster.
You know, like these the wordswe choose to use, or can be red
flags, I would say on the otherside, when you say dog whistle,
um there's some really dangerousthings happening right now with
italy and germany, um, withreally far right movement I was

(57:14):
really shocked to learn aboutitaly recently about some of the
like the really yeah, reallyshocked my wife and I were
talking about.
It's like very right, and alsotoo, I can't you can't.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Like they're getting rid of ivf.
If you're, if you're a gaycouple, like you can't adopt,
like you can't even, you can'teven do surrogacy.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Yeah, like they totally changing also and I
think there's anothermisconception that happens is
that often we think that men areresponsible for these really
far-right policies.
The leader in Italy is a womanyeah.
Some of the leaders.
Like in France, the very, veryfar-right movement is led by a
woman, so women are just as likecomplicit in these pushes.

(57:51):
I mean white women in largevoting blocks voted Trump in.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Right.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
So it's not men.
Men are not responsible for it.
This is where, when we look atintersectional a lens of it,
breaking people down by alsowhere they live, by their income
.
Whatever you want to talk about, women can be just as complicit
.
White women can be extremelyviolent.
Emmett till, if your listenerswere to google, google emmett

(58:18):
till.
Emmett till was a 14 year oldboy that a white woman claimed
on her way home uh tried toassault her.
He was hung um and lynched andit turned out to not be true and
this was back in the early1900s was that the one that d
Chappelle talked about?
Yeah, yeah, I mean like there'swhite women can be
extraordinarily violent.
It's part of the reason whythere's a responsibility for

(58:39):
those of us in that space to beable to talk to other white
women.
I mean it's so dog whistle,yeah.
I mean there's a lot happeningright now where people even like
the whole trad wife trend.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
I was going to ask you the what Trad wives?
I don't know what that is.
Okay, so my wife and I had thislong conversation about trad
wife on a hike one day.
Okay, trad wife is traditionalwife.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
Yeah, and it's a movement that's happening right
now.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
So I was going to ask you.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
There's a lot of young.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Yeah, trad, wife, I they're wearing the long dresses
, the conservative posts, I'llsee trad wife Making bread.
The crazy thing to me and thisis what my wife and I talked
about is they are so naive thatthey don't realize that there's
nothing wrong if you want to bea traditional quote.
Unquote wife.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
If it's by choice.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
By choice, and they don't seem to realize that all
of the women that have comebefore them, that have fought
for certain rights, have allowedthem to be able to make that
choice and they're now fightingagainst it and saying it's not
that they want to be a trad wife, it's the fact that they're
like shooting women down whodon't want to be that yeah, I
think it's this whole idea oflike the other right, like it's,

(59:46):
I think, right okay, that'sgood.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
So I'm just so confused by this I'll take my
brain time process Sorry.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Here's the one thing I'll always say.
It's always about consent.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
Yeah right.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
Everything is about consent.
Did you consent to this.
Was this your choice?
Great Happy for you.
Let other people have theability to have consent on what
they do with their bodies, howthey choose to live their lives,
If it is not ultimatelyimpacting you in any way shape
or form.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
I thought that was always the goal right so we
could get on to the next bigger,better thing.
I thought we've got sostupefied in the last so many
years about where we are at andI mean I feel like when history
looks back on us, we are goingto be like the anti-science age.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
This like the anti-science age and the
anti-fact age and the like itfeels like the middle ages are
progressing age like what thehell?
Well, I can, I can tell youlike I have a three and a half
year old and for as long as I'mamazed you're still awake.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
I I like like.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Honestly, we have tried to hammer home consent for
him in every aspect right.
We kind of you know as lettinghim decide yeah well, we, you
know, we try to let him decidecertain things, but we also like
coach him on it right and heand I like to.
He loves to wrestle right likehe and I, and I do wrestle and
they throw him in bed and all ofa sudden, we love it right and
uh, we always do it before bed.

(01:01:08):
And he'll ask and he'll be likecan we, can we fight before we
go to bed?
And he's like, yeah, all right,let's go, but sometimes you
know he'll you know, whateverhe'll go, he may go with me,
it's okay kind of thing.
Sometimes he might attack mywife and whatever, and I'll sit
him down.
We sit him on the floor and Ilook at him.
Bud, remember I said you canonly fight somebody when both
people agree to fight, right?

(01:01:29):
It's like it's literally Itelling them.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
It's WWF rules.

Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
It's like you're talking to me after I had too
many drinks.
It's that consent thing right.
So it's like listen, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:39):
you know what Boxing happens, UFC happens.
Both of those people agree toget into a ring and do it.
If he goes and fights in high,if he goes in high school and he
goes to fight, I'm going to say, buddy, do both of you guys go
and decide to like square off.
You walked off and you went andsquared off.
You know what, bud, you'reprobably not in trouble, but if
you're bullying anybody, ifyou're hitting somebody and
you're picking on somebody, notcool.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah Right, I don't know.
It's interesting, I think youknow, when people get a little
bit of a taste of power, theirconnection Again it goes back to
relationship.
You forget what it's like to bethe person who was not able to
do something or not able to.

(01:02:20):
You know, like I think we justI don't know what it is about
humans we have this need toconstantly overpower, dominate
one another, whether mentallyphysically, dominate one another
whether mentally physically.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
So let me ask you this though If you like, matt,
you're raising your kid andstuff and giving them all the
right tools, I think theprobability of that probably
would go down a hell of a lot,wouldn't it that they would be
more, or is it instinctual?
Can we even control this thirstor quench for power?
I mean, I always say like I haveto check myself, because it's
almost like you almost alwayswant to have an enemy in life as

(01:02:53):
a man right, you know, like,you know what I mean, right,
yeah, the change has beenbecause there's nothing more
unifying than a common which,which which has been great for
us, right because and you know,but like, yeah, like how you
really I said this earlier aboutinner peace Like you really
have to say like let that shitgo, right, you really have to

(01:03:16):
find a way to stop looking forthe next thing to be pissed off
about.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Right, you should.
You should come over and talkto me.
My husband would love you tocoach me through like get off.
Twitter Stop it.
Who are you yelling at right?

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
now, stop it.
I am avoiding the commentsection lately.
Who are you yelling at right?
Now, stop it.
I am avoiding the commentsection lately.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
I haven't it's so free and I mean I can't do it
all the time.
I would be such a liar if Isaid I did.
I do it some of the time, butwhen I can do it, when I get
into that zone, I'm just notgoing to fucking worry about it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Isn't it great.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Man, you feel so great I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
It's better than happy, yeah, I mean, if I had
well, okay, god, your poorlisteners are probably like
Jesus Christ.
this is turning into some kindof I think capitalism is
fundamentally some of the corecrux of why this all exists.
Right, like I'm a fundraiser Ihave spent my career working on.
Okay, I have two sides of thecoin.
I have two sides of the coin.

(01:04:09):
I have people who have so muchwealth, so much power, so much
privilege that I talk to you andI'm trying to convince them to
just carve off a small amount ofwhat they have to help those
who have the least amount.
Right, neither group are happyBecause one has so much money
and so much power they have nosense of.
They have done everything theycan to make more and more and

(01:04:30):
more and more and more, becausethat's what society teaches them
is going to make them happy andat the end of the life, they're
miserable.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
We have people who have nothing they have whatever.
Systemic issues have causedthem to be born into a situation
where they haven't been able to, and there's this giant chasm
in the middle and I think peopleare constantly striving to get
to that end where it's wealth,the privilege, whatever it
doesn't make.
I've never met a reallyextraordinarily wealthy person

(01:04:56):
who's super happy Really Never.
Most of them regret it.
Most of them say that it was byluck.
Most of them say that theyspent more time with their
business than their kids.
They didn't spend enough timewith their wives.
They're on their third wife,fourth wife, X number of
girlfriends or vice versa.
You know, but they never.
You know, it just doesn't.

(01:05:17):
If it's like a hole that can'tbe filled and then, you also
have people who literally cannotget one foot in front of the
other yeah can't get ahead.
So for those of us that are inthe middle, it's like okay, well
, where are we spending our time, our energy and our money so
that that gap closes?
And I think both of you areinvolved in some work with a
really great organization aswell, and I think people like us

(01:05:39):
have to kind of pull these twoends closer together, because if
we're not fundamentallyshifting, we have too many
people with too much and toomany people with too little.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Like it's just, yeah, I've said we were talking about
this.
Like Elon Musk is worth $400billion, he could give $399
billion away still be abillionaire still have more
money than he'd ever know how tospend and he could probably
solve world hunger and shelterfor everyone in North America,
and he'd still be a billionaire.
He could literally set up 400charities with a billion dollars

(01:06:15):
and have those feed offinterest that could fix
everything.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
But they wouldn't let him in the room season now if
he didn't have $400 billion.

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
Nobody would be listening to him.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Right yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
So that's the access.
It buys him, right, mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
I don't know, I don't , I, I don't know if I, I guess
what I would say is, like themost important thing we can all
be doing is talking.
Yeah, sitting down face to face, having in-person face-to-face,
huge I agree with that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
I kind of feel that's what won trump.
Like his first term.
I think he's gone off the railsin this second term I really
feel like he's really reallywell, I mean like he's literally
acting like Name.
One example he's acting like atoddler, Like he really is
acting like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
Now having a toddler.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
He's acting like a toddler, like irrational, like
emotional every day to day, allthe like, throwing temper
tantrums, you know all thisstuff.
And mix that with if first term.
Although I still didn't likehim, I understood why people

(01:07:17):
were voting for him, because hewas at least a little.
He was more intelligent, he hadmore of those dog whistle not
the blatant stuff, he had moreof the dog whistle type of
policies.
And he went and he didsomething that Hillary didn't
and that was visit that steelbelt.
He went in there and said I'mbringing your jobs back right,
I'm going to do this, I'm goingto do that.
And people were.
They were.
It was like, okay.

(01:07:37):
So yeah, he's probably a racist, misogynistic person, but I
live in madison, minnesota, ormadison, wisconsin, whatever,
and I'm uh worried about thefactory that just closed and I
live in an all-white.
I just want to put food on thetable.
I don't care if he hatesMexicans or devalues women.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Like literally, that was the mentality, right, I know
, yeah, that just breaks myheart, but, yes, I know, but
people voted on the fact that Iactually Immediate needs.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Immediate needs.
They put the blinders on right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:18):
This is something I realized just a few years ago,
when I was talking to a friendwho didn't feel like it was his
responsibility to help othersand I kind of realized like he
was hurting so much, that likeblind, why should I?
and he's like listen, I needhelp, I can't help anyone else.
And I realized that like themore we can lift people out of
poverty, the more we can liftpeople up in general, like
rising tides, float all boats,boats.
Then we have more people tohelp other people.
And I think that's the thing iswhen you say talking is we can

(01:08:40):
almost help to understand otherpeople and maybe win them over a
little bit and help them seethe other side and help them
relate a little bit and, yeah,hopefully we can get them over
to the point where they're in agood spot and then they can help
the next person I think thepandemic did a lot of damage,
sure did yeah, I think it reallydid.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Mental health, yeah, isolated people yeah, oh, yeah,
and I don't think people, Idon't think society's fully
recovered, I don't thinksociety's fully grieved what
happened?
Um no, that's fair and I thinkthat the more we can do this
kind of stuff, the better.
Most people I don't know ifyou've ever been had someone
really upset and angry, like incustomer service or something,

(01:09:19):
and they're getting them.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
We work in insurance.
Okay, people hate us.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, exactly, but do you ever find you pull that
person aside, sit them down in aroom or actually call them back
and you'll find that they comedown and just as long as they're
heard, I think hearing peoplecan go a long way to changing
the way people feel about eachother.
I think most people are angrybecause they haven't been hurt.
It all comes back to the samething, that's fair, yeah.

(01:09:44):
You can't get over somethingyou can't heal.
You can't move on until you'vehad your ability.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
And then at.
That point.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
If you still can't move on to your point, maybe you
need to work on some innerstuff.
But I think, most of the time,as long as we feel like you know
, at least I've had my chance tosay how I felt about this.
Whether you change it is up toyou.
Yeah, so I don't know, If I hadall the answers I'd be a
millionaire or billionaire, Are?

Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
you writing a book, oh fuck, no, no, jeez, I mean, I
think you could, they could uhget on that I had someone
suggest I started podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
I was like god, no, no well the sub stacks.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
Don't introduce you to ai.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd besurprised.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
I think you got a lot , a lot to share so now, okay,
that was a really great timewe're going to do 10 questions.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Oh shit, Buckle up.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
This is way.
Okay, linda, let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
We've already went pretty hard in the paint today.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
This is pretty easy.
So this is 10 questions withLinda, with Linda.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
I'm going to send this to my mother Now I'm
definitely going to call herLinda.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
We've been doubling down on it it With Linda.
I'm going to send this to mymother Now.
I'm definitely going to callher.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
Linda, we've been doubling down on it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
It's going to mess me up.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
Want to start with number one Sure did All right,
okay.
So question number one yourleast favorite movie or TV show
of 2024.
Least favorite, for whateverreason.
Least favorite, what did youwatch?
Maybe you were looking forwardto it and it sucked.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Oh jesus, oh, I don't watch bad tv.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
No, I think that's the benefit of streaming is I
don't have to that's, that'sfair.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Um god, I can't, I don't know, I really had to sit
through for the with the kidsbad show.
No, I don't watch shows withthem because they have bad taste
in shows.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
So no, they watch mostly soccer all right, cool.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
okay, all right, no answer, sorry, no, that's all
right Question number two.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
So if one of these creatures were banished from the
earth tomorrow, cats or dogs,which one would you pick?

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
Oh, cats, that was easy All day long.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Really Okay and the cat was the distraction.
Sorry to the cat.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Oh no, I was just shocked, 100% you know what?

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
I have a cat and he's an asshole.
Yeah, you know what?

Speaker 1 (01:11:52):
working at the SPCA.
That was quite a controversialstatement, so I was prepared to
defend myself.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Yeah am I number three?
You're number three.
Okay, this is easy, or maybenot easy.
It's controversial poutine ordoner?

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
oh, poutine, I can't eat doners not a doner person no
, I just can't okay.
No, I just can't Okay.
Long story I can't eat onionsor garlic, so my choices are
limited.
Okay, yeah poutine might be myonly option.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Oh right, Makes sense .

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Yeah, if anyone wants to kill me, just shove an onion
into something.
That's basically.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
I don't know, you're a vampire.
Death by onion, exactly, yeah,or something like that.
All right, question number four.
So how many feminists does ittake to screw in a light bulb?

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
None, we would have figured out something else.
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
The acceptable answer was that was not funny.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
I snuck that one in.
You're not funny, that's sorude.
All right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Okay, liz, this came off your LinkedIn.
We are living in times of shockand awe.
I must have read one of yourother articles.
That was about Donald Trump,because I wrote this the first
time, I think the first time wewere all going to do our thing.
How do you think we can build abetter vision for the future?
Oh geez, that's a hard question.
What was I drinking there, liz?

(01:13:11):
I think she's already kind ofanswered it.
You've kind of answered thisone.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
I think with this episode this has kind of been
the theme Community workingtogether.
Being in community with oneanother.
Signing your petition.
Signing our petition.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Big first step.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
Yeah, give Tim a call .

Speaker 3 (01:13:34):
If anyone's got his phone number, just send him this
podcast and tell them to listen.
Yeah, I like that, all right.
Question number six so anotherquote that we liked.
What is power if we cannot useit for the collective liberation
?
It's a great quote.
How would you suggest otherwomen in power help others.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
I think the biggest thing I would say, you know, is
what I talked about before,which is it's really easy, as a
white woman, to say okay, youknow, check these boxes off is
like fulfilling the same uhtrajectory that a lot of men
have been stuck in, which islike this these are the
definitions of power and success, but how are we really bringing

(01:14:07):
everyone up with us together,right it?
What does success mean ifyou're not sharing it with the
people that you care about orthe communities that you're in?
And I think, if we don't have Iwould say this, if you don't
have any friends that don't looklike you and don't have the
same background as you, youshould probably be trying to
make some different friends,because I think the experience

(01:14:28):
I've had is that I don'tunderstand what the world is
really like unless I'm inrelationship with people who
have different experiences thanI do.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
I'll tell you I know we touched a little bit like on
like DEI, but I can tell you I'mwhen people talk about how like
the DEI stuff and how they're,whether they're against it or
whatever I can tell you assomeone who I managed an agency,
and reason to me why I see itas a huge advantage is that you

(01:14:57):
can see from things from so manydifferent perspectives, which
actually is a benefit, not alike dumbing down of the
whatever they want to call it.
Right.
Yeah, but I actually I saw itlike I took an agency and in
half the time that it was open,more than doubled the revenue
that it was doing.
And how I did that was I sawthat people were consistently

(01:15:21):
hiring a bunch of white peopleand I was like you know what I'm
going to take ads out inlanguages, like only in those
languages that people can readand speak that language that I'm
hiring.
So that's how I hired peoplewho I wanted to hire and you
could eventually, if you cameinto my office at its peak,
could hear six differentlanguages being spoken in my
office and we grew it likereally well Right.

(01:15:43):
So, I see that as a hugestrength.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
Well, I mean, people love to be connected to the
communities that are familiar tothem.
So if you're growing a diversegroup of communities connected
to your business, then you'rejust going to grow your business
.
I think one of the things thatalways shocks me is when people
are like oh, you know,especially around this trad wife
thing, and not want women tohave I'm like 50 of the
population.
You want to cut that off?
that's weird to me it's a reallyweird decision I mean, there's

(01:16:09):
a reason why you're starting tosee more and more stuff around
menopause and midlife, likewomen are becoming a very
prominent and powerful votingblock and you're going to start
seeing policies changing aroundthat right.
Um, yeah, and we have a lot ofbuying power too.
But I think we also have toremember that, like, communities
of color in particular, are soused to racism that they, when

(01:16:31):
they find a space and placewhere someone's embracing the
differences versus pushing themaway, they will embrace your
business.
It's a very powerful tool forgrowing a business in the right
way.
So, anyways, sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
I'll go Okay.
Question number seven how aboutyou?

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
All right, so just name a spot in Nova Scotia that
would equate to a perfect day, aplace you'd love to go in Nova
Scotia, salt.

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
Marsh Trail Very nice .
I bike there every weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
Every weekend.
Every weekend, well, except forthe winters, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
Yeah, Cool.
I mean I would if I could, butI'm not that brave All right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
So question number eight is, from any time in your
life childhood to present whatwas one of your favorite
childhood albums and why oh mygod, we had a michael jackson
thriller tape oh nice and I haveno idea how we ended up with it
, but my brother and I used tolisten to that all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
But, that being said, best story of my childhood
growing up was that my parentsare immigrants from the uk and
they did not know who billy idolwas.
Oh, my mom and my dad.
My dad came home one day fromwork with two tickets, or four
tickets, to go see billy idolwas.
Oh, my mom and my dad.
My dad came home one day fromwork with two tickets, or four
tickets, to go see billy idoland my mom thought he was a jazz
singer and she's like, let'stake it.
She's like, let's take the kids.
They packed a bis like a picnicbasket and whatever.

(01:17:43):
They took me.
My brother was five and a half,I was like eight and a half and
we went down to ontario place.
It was packed with bik, likejust clouds of pot smoke, but my
parents were insistent that wewere going to at least see like
the first bit of the show andanyways, we watched Billy Idol
at that age and, like to thisday, it's still one of the
funniest fucking stories ever mymom taking her two kids to

(01:18:08):
Billy Idol dressed in her likewhatever, like the guys in the
biker gangs I swear it was allhell's angels were like, yeah,
these kids are awesome.
Yeah, I guess that was one ofthe best stories of our family,
for sure that's great, so that'sa good story.

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
Yeah, okay, number nine what were you?

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
this is a spicy one, that Uh-oh.

Speaker 1 (01:18:30):
That's not that spicy .
More light bulbs, not thatspicy.
No, no Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
Which Canadian political party do you think
aligns better for the liberationof women?

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
Oh jeez, honestly no, I struggle with all three of
them.
What are you, are we talkingabout?
Federal or provincial?
Federal?
It's hard.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
It's tough, yeah, yeah.
And why is?

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
that Because I think women have different ideas of
what their liberation looks like.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
So I think people would naturally say that I
should lean towards the NDP butI also think there's things the
NDP have done that I don't find,and it also sucks to be pushed.
Like you just said, there's adiverse group of thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:19:09):
I think the best thing that you can do is offer
women choice 100% like you justsaid there's a diverse.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
I think the best thing that you can do is offer
women choice 100 love it.
Great answer, that is a greatanswer, all right, so, uh, last
question, it's one that we askevery single person who comes on
our show.
Uh, so what is one quote orpiece of advice that you were
given in your lifetime that youwould like to share with us?

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
oh shit, should have studied better for this.
I've had so many great piecesof advice.
The one that resonated the mostwith me was my friend Anika
Allen.
When I was going through atough time she said the best
thing you can do is make sureyou have a rich inner life.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
Make sure you have a what in your life.

Speaker 1 (01:19:47):
Rich inner life.

Speaker 3 (01:19:48):
Rich inner life.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Because then, no matter what people say about you
, no matter how difficult, wejust got the title of your book
rich inner life.
Inner life, but like having areally rich idea of who you are,
what you believe in, yourvalues, but also finding joy in
your life.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
And you, like you said, people can say what they
want to.
And you know it's.
Yeah, and, like you said,people can say what they want to
.
It's not like water off aduck's back, but I don't find
myself as when I spend time innature or I spend time doing art
, I know that I can fall back onthose things to bring me joy.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
So, yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Out of the park.
Great answers, that's great.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
And you know what I have to say as just a little bit
of funny, because you're gonnaghost write her book now oh god,
and it's gonna.
It's gonna be rich in her life.
The story of an intersectionalfeminist by by linda.
By linda ghost, written byMichael Tobin.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
I don't know, I would just.
I just think you had a lot tosay.
This was a very entertainingshow, great chat.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
Thank you so much, thank you and thank you for
hanging in there.

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
I know I had to reschedule a couple times.
If you're still with us, weappreciate it.
No, no, it was great, it wasworth it.
Cheers, thank you, that's it.

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Liz LeClair - Breaking the Silence: NDAs, Consent, and Gender-Based Violence

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Liz LeClair - Breaking the Silence: NDAs, Consent, and Gender-Based Violence