June 20, 2025 • 31 mins
Questions Addressed in This Episode:
- At the GFG, why no dunk tank? Are you a chicken?
- Can we bring other staff onto the podcast in the future?
- Is it inherently sinful to end a friendship or should there be a sort of default attempt to reconcile and reconnect?
- If heaven is perfect and without sin, how could Satan, before creation, have had pride to want to be God and fall away and be thrown out with the other fallen angels of heaven?
- Please explain faith and repentance and how they relate to each other.
Episode Summary:
In this Part 2 episode of afterWord, Matt and Jeremy continue their discussion of questions submitted during the Great Family Gathering. The conversation covers a wide range of topics, from lighthearted reflections on past church events and future podcast plans to deeper theological and practical matters. You'll hear insights on navigating complex friendships, understanding the biblical account of Satan's fall, and clarifying the essential relationship between faith and repentance in salvation. This episode aims to provide thoughtful, grounded perspectives on questions that matter in both life and ministry.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome back to Afterward, a podcast about extended
conversations regarding topics that matter in life and a
ministry. Matt and Jeremy, welcome back.
Thank. You all right?
We're here. Dressed exactly the same way,
which means this must be Part 2,Part 2 of what was part one last
episode where we cracked open questions that we received at
(00:31):
one of our Sunday services called the Grey Family Gathering
in March or May rather. And so we have received a bunch
of questions from people when weasked them to submit them, and
we said we were going to try to answer them on the podcast.
We have way too many to get to. And people ask questions, as I
said in the previous episode, kind of all over the map.
So some were like, just want to be more personal information.
(00:52):
Some were deeply doctrinal. Some were serious, some were
more lighthearted guys. A very serious one was this one
at the GFG. Why no dunk tank?
Are you a chicken? So.
I did it my first year. Did you guys know that?
So I came on, I came on staff in2017, but in May I wasn't even
(01:18):
on. I came in the fall.
So, but it was, I think it was announced that I was coming.
So yeah, in May of 2017, I was in the dunk tank and it was
freezing. There is a bunch of junk
floating in the water. Maybe some of the people that I
was following I'm. Going to call a name out you
are. Oh yeah, I know for.
Sure. Anyways, that was not my most
favorite entry into the. Entry into ministry dunked in
(01:40):
the ministry. Yes, yes, yeah.
There's some potential injury there.
You know, I think you gotta be worried about some liability.
Yeah, you know. I well, the reason there's a
reason for that, it's because I did the duck type 2.
And so you have by meaning, meaning you're actually the one
getting dunked. OK, so they, unless you're in a
dunk tank, you don't know about the high potential for some
(02:03):
tailbone issues. Like I went in after Gary
Pollard. I'll call out his name because
Gary is with the Lord and Darcy would not mind his wife.
And we, I had to get in after Gary.
So there was, can I just, I'll say it like this, There was a
little bit of water displacementthat happened with Gary and low
in the tank. It was a little low and we were
(02:24):
not refilling it. And so I got up next.
And so of course, everybody who ever wanted to, you know, have
anything against you lines up tohit the massive target.
The target's huge. And so I sat on that little
metal platform. Yeah, it's that big.
The platform you can barely evensit on.
It's metal. Well, at least the version that
we had. So when I sat on that thing, as
(02:47):
soon as someone threw the ball and hit it, the thing would drop
this way and you would your behind would slide down the
metal. But this is a nice ledge right
here to slide down too. So you would slide your spine
down that bad boy and then land in the water.
That was very, very it. The water level was way down.
And so more often than once I'm like, boom, hit the bottom, boom
(03:08):
hit the bottom and everybody thought it was great.
And I'm like, it is great. It's very fun for you.
And of course you can't complainand you can't say anything
because you know, you're on staff and you can't do that kind
of stuff. You have to have it with a smile
on. But you're sitting on that
little plank thinking, I seriously, I'm going to injure
myself here. And so why no dunk tank?
I, I would like to go on record to say I'm not chicken.
(03:30):
I've done it and I've done my time.
You know what I mean? Like I've done it.
Paid enough if if we bring the dunk tank back, it's it's time
to bring the next, you know, group of unsuspecting victims up
there and we'll keep the water level up.
You haven't done it yet. Matt's up.
But I just, I just want to go record.
I'm going to be looking at the dunk tank before we wreck it,
(03:51):
rent it, just to make sure that we don't injure somebody.
Well, I want to call out becauseZach Harris gladly volunteered
and said I would go in the dunk tank.
Yeah, putting him on record. Yes.
That he said that he's got a good idea.
Yeah, yeah. With much zeal and gusto, Yeah.
So yeah, he'd go for it. It is a bit of a he's young
enough to he's young enough to recover his tailbone.
(04:11):
That's true. That's true.
And you could treat him if he injuries himself.
Yeah, OK. Here we're doing it.
Yep, all right. OK, boy.
Not at all. Related.
Another question one person wrote in, I love learning about
the staff on the podcast, like when we all interviewed each
other, it would be great to hearfrom other members of the staff.
Can we bring other staff on to the podcast in the future?
(04:34):
So this speaks to a little bit of our philosophy of the
podcast. So do you guys want to fill that
in? Yes, not yes, I want to fill it
in, but yes, there's the answer to the question.
I think we're hoping to, to eventually bring folks in and I,
I think what we would try to do is realizing the audience, make
sure that we're able to have them speaking into topics that
(04:54):
would be applicable for those who are listening in, both to
get to know them, but also just to learn from them.
A man, we've got some people on staff that just drop gold.
And so it would be, yeah, sweet to to just be able to pick their
brain and, and people even get asampling of what what the
quality of the staff are that wehave.
(05:15):
Yeah. Yeah.
So yes, in time, we'd love to. Yeah, anybody who goes in the
dunk tank, then. Oh.
Oh, that's. Entry point The entry OK.
I don't think we're putting women on the yeah.
That's a really rough. Call, they get a.
Pass. Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
That's fair. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't think
about the relationship between those two questions.
Matt, great job. There is a relationship there
(05:35):
though. I, I would say too, we want to,
philosophically, we're trying tothink about mainly our local
church listening to this and watching this, but then also
acknowledging, whoa, I mean, there's obviously a lot of other
people who are too. And so we can't just make it a
personal interview with one of our staff members who our church
knows, but somebody who's not from our church would have no
idea who the person is and probably wouldn't have as much
(05:57):
interest in personal information.
But the benefit of that, like you said, is man, look at the
ministry, the wisdom and the ministry that they can provide
by way of just practical wisdom.That really can be a benefit to,
you know, somebody not from our church.
So when we bring other staff on,that is going to be one of the
the challenges and the opportunities is how do we
introduce them to an audience beyond our church, but then have
(06:20):
it be so for our church to connect with them in a in a
different way too. So yeah, we'll try to thread
that needle. Yeah.
And Matt and I will step away atsome combo to allow you to
interview them, right. So that's coming, no?
I think we're just going to keepadding people just keep going.
Yeah, we'll just kind of wrap them around, yeah, six or seven
or eight more mics, more mics. OK, Next question, Is it
inherently sinful? Again, this is pivoting, all
(06:43):
right? Is it inherently sinful to end a
friendship, or should there be asort of default attempt to
reconcile and reconnect? Man, that's really a good
question. Is it inherently sinful to end a
friendship, or should there be asort of default attempt to
reconcile and reconnect? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a
(07:04):
great question without context. That makes it really hard.
Yeah, because a lot of the advice and counsel will be given
when when we're dealing with relationships and and mending
and reconciliation context matters big time.
Sometimes the offense like look,the the spectrum of an offense
(07:26):
can be anything to where the advice to them is.
You might be able to overlook that.
That shouldn't actually wedge put a wedge in your friendship
all the way to whoa, that is awful and could be criminal.
Possibly. Yeah, it could be criminal and
definitely doesn't mean that youshould continue in the same way
you did before and needs a completely different set of
(07:46):
counsel to be given there. And so forgiveness and
reconciliation, which are huge topics then can look different
depending on how you're speakingto somebody and the offense that
they're bringing to you. And so it does make this
question a little challenging without context, but I think big
picture we can maybe speak to it.
I agree Romans 12/18 talks aboutwhatever's however it's well,
(08:08):
how does it phrase it and as faras possible for you, live it
peaceably with all men. If I could answer the question
with a super quick story, I didn't get permission for this.
I'm leaving all the names out, but in our cornerstone class,
we're doing the, the homework that we go through in the self
confrontation manual forces people to answer this question.
Well, not this question, but basically, is there anyone that
(08:29):
you have not reconciled with that you now need to reach out
to? And this person was reading
through this like and thinking back to a friendship that was a
long time back and like, man, Lord, is it really do you really
want me to like we haven't spoken in years, but we had a
falling out. And so it nagged on this person
like, you know what, I think that's the Holy Spirit and
that's using Romans 12/18 like Ineed to do this.
(08:53):
So out of the blue is still in the area.
Reached out to this other personsay, can you get together?
They get together after years ofthat falling out and and the
person just lays it out. The word of God was strong in my
heart and I just want to ask foryour forgiveness for how I
handled this and that I don't even remember all the details.
I don't want to be and and it atodds with you.
(09:13):
I want to live in harmony. I have no idea what's even going
on in your life. And so there's a longer story as
you can imagine, but basically just said, please forgive me.
That woman who said that was setit to another woman.
The, the, the woman on the receiving end was totally moved
and said, I have, I got a divorce from my husband.
(09:34):
And given the fact of what how you are using scripture to then
try to mend the relationship gives me hope for my
relationship. And I don't remember exactly how
it ended, but basically she was saying, I'm going to go see if I
can make things right with my husband.
She was in an unbiblical divorce.
So basically it was just a ripple effect of reconciling and
she's like, if you can do this and we can be right after all
(09:56):
these years, I should be doing this in my life.
So anyways, that's just a quick little story.
But I do think that there is a, there is we want to make sure
that and even Matthew 5 would beanother one.
But there's other places that like we need to make sure that
we're not leaving it at odds because it's easier just to
agree to disagree. We need to reconcile.
(10:16):
We need to ask for forgiveness when that's there.
The other part of the question is do we need to be best buds
forever? And I can answer that.
Well, let me just answer it super quick.
My typical answer is like, we need to be in harmony with one
another. It's not singing the same note.
It doesn't mean you're walking around holding hands and you're
like your best BFFS all the time.
But you need to not be at odds with one another.
(10:37):
And so there is a time, I think to say, look, our friendship
needs it. We need to go a different way.
I still love you and I will do things that are deemed by the
people to be loving, but maybe we're not going to be hanging
out in the exact same way. Yeah, I've had people ask me,
well, how do I know that I'm at odds or that I need to make
things right? And one of the quick checks is
(10:58):
when you see that person particularly, this is so
important in the local church context.
If you're going to church with abrother or sister and you are
struggling in fellowship or you're unsure or you're holding
something, then the question is like, when do I need to make
things right? And some of this has to do, is
it continually coming into your mind?
Like in other words, are you dwelling on it or can we use
where we've been using meditating in a in honestly a
(11:20):
good way, in a sense of bitterness?
And then when you see the person, what's your gut
reaction? If you're like inclinationist, I
need to go the other way or likeimmediately brings to mind the
offense. Well, there's something there,
right? You need to you need to make
that needs to be worked on rightin your heart.
So I think those are a couple just gut checks.
(11:40):
They're not perfect, but just some things to think about.
Yeah, I, I was thinking about a biblical example that I actually
do reflect on in, in my own lifeand even in ministry when I'm
working with someone who has just a, a friendship that's gone
South or even just fellowship that's gone South and holding
out the hope of Paula and Mark. So Paul and Barnabas, Acts 1539
(12:05):
between Paul and Barnabas, therearose a sharp disagreement so
that they separated from each other because Paul thought it
was best not to take John Mark with them who had deserted them
before in the work. And so Barnabas basically
saying, I think we should take John Mark with us on the second
missionary journey. Paul says, I don't think we
should take him. He left us on the 1st missionary
journey. And that word strong
(12:25):
disagreement is paroxysm like meaning they had a seizure, a
fissure in their relationship. It was a cataclysm devastating
to Paul and Barnabas's relationship.
This this decision of what to dowith John Mark.
And literally they separated. They're done like their
relationship. They just they it was a breach.
They moved it one way and then the other.
(12:47):
And that was some of what the Lord used by the way, to drive
Paul up into Asia Minor and thenover into Macedonia on the
second missionary journey. So the Lord totally used and
that's something that I want to say here, the Lord totally used
the Fisher, the sharp disagreement, the the, the real
breach in their relationship. God was at work and I, I, I
(13:10):
mentioned that to people sometimes like God's not absent
from this breach. He can work through it and in
this breach, but let's also always hold out the hope of what
happens later in Paul's life. At the end of his life, he says
second Timothy 411. Only Luke is with me now, but
get John Mark and bring him withyou.
(13:31):
He's saying this to Timothy because he's very useful for me
in ministry and I love that. Like just, and you've talked
about this a lot when teaching through Barnabas, I'm sure.
Just that is the exact opposite of what Paul esteemed John Mark
to be about. He esteemed John Mark to be a
quitter, but at the end of Paul's life, he's saying bring
him with you. He is super, super useful in
(13:54):
ministry to me, to me. And so that means that paroxysm
that relationship had been had been healed.
And so I don't know that we everhave relationships or
friendships that are that are that bad where they have to just
totally end. But you see it with Paul and
Barnabas. It didn't end it.
It like separated, but always hold out the idea that there
(14:14):
could be some restoration down the line.
And so I, I mentioned that to people like don't give up.
But it if you've worked through rest restoration, if you've made
every attempt to be at peace andin good conscience, it just
isn't working. That's OK.
God could do work in this that you might not be able to control
or might not know about. That's OK.
(14:35):
So just the hope of that as you would maybe walk away from a
friendship that God might have it be revisited.
And if not, he's at work in it. And I whoever asked this
question, I just wouldn't want to give them that hope.
You know, it's not inherently sinful.
It can be though. You guys have been talking about
that. So get some counsel.
But then man, if you've done everything you can to be at
(14:56):
peace, then it's OK and just trust the Lord.
So is that fair? Listen, there's a lot of other
questions. Can I just scan down to another
one here? And this is pivoting again.
So these are disconnected. But another question was if
heaven is perfect and without sin, how could Satan before
creation have had pride to want to be God and fall away and be
(15:20):
thrown out with the other fallenangels in heaven?
It's a long question. Let me read it again.
If heaven is perfect and withoutsin, how could Satan before
creation have had pride to want to be God and fall away and be
thrown out with the other fallenangels of heaven?
So this is a question of like how could this have happened?
(15:41):
And so the the question how is Ithink imperative for us to think
through. You guys have any initial
thoughts? My initial thought is this is a
good question that you wouldn't want to dismiss too quickly out
of your own mind. So sometimes we have questions.
You're like, I don't know what the Bible says about that.
Just it's OK, Like let it sit there.
And so I think it's just good tobe inquisitive about these kinds
(16:04):
of things. It's a lot different though,
when you're asking the question,asking the Lord even of this
question, and we can do it with our own life.
Why did this happen? Why did you allow all that kind
of stuff? But demanding an answer for it
is different. So I think asking the question
is great. Demanding that we have an answer
to our own satisfaction is way different.
(16:26):
So I'm game to answer the former.
Don't want to jump into the ladder?
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I think the Lord reveals
through His Word what we need toknow.
So we have much more detail about how man fell, right?
So it's there's much more detailthere of external temptation by
Satan using the things here thathe fell with, by tempting to and
(16:52):
looking to tempt with pride, right, and with the desire to be
like God. So you don't know how to mirror
that on to Satan's fall that clearly when you have a creator
and a created being and there's any comparison done, there's
room in that, in that bridge, inthat gap between creator and
created for something to happen.And, and we don't know how Satan
(17:15):
fell. We just know, hey, this is how
man fell. And it sure seems like there was
some sort of similar lines of thinking, but who was tempting
Satan? I mean, you know, like so it's a
different setup between creator and created to lead to that
fall. Yeah, I, I, guys, I, I
appreciate that. I think we, we do need to be
(17:36):
careful. I, I don't, we don't have the
question of how it happened. Just we have statements that you
would have to draw some interpretational decisions on in
order to say that that this is informing Satan's fall.
Because, yeah, we have just a lot more detail on and it would
make sense that it serves the purposes of the Scripture.
(17:58):
The purposes of the Scripture are the glorification of God and
the salvation of sinners throughthe personal work of Jesus
Christ, right. So, so we would want to say if
it doesn't serve that immediate purpose, it's not going to be
majored on. Well, you can't reverse the fall
of Satan. So he's not going to he's not
going to in that sense, he's he's only going to serve the the
cause of the grand purposes of redemption from an antithetic or
(18:22):
antipathetic position. So we're not going to be told a
lot about how just that he was there at the beginning in the
garden to, you know, to to temptEve and Adam to fall.
The there are a couple of passages that maybe speak to it,
though, if you want to make thisinterpretive decision.
Isaiah 14 would be one of them about how he wanted to lift
(18:44):
himself up to be like God. And that sounds very similar to
what happens in the Garden of Eden.
And then in Ezekiel 28, you haveanother extended lament over the
king of Tyre, who sounds a lot like Lucifer.
In fact, let me just read a couple of selections And you can
go like, oh, wow, maybe that's maybe that's meant to be
(19:05):
describing Satan at his own fall.
This is what it says. Ezekiel 28 verse 11, The word of
the Lord came to me, Son of man,raise a lamentation over the
king of Tyre and say to him, thus says the Lord God, you are
the signet of perfection, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty.
And this is interesting. You were in Eden, the garden of
(19:26):
God. Every precious stone was your
covering, and he lists all the precious stones on the day that
you were created. You are prepared as an anointed
guardian cherub. I placed you.
You are on the holy mountain of God in the midst of the stones
of fire. You walked.
You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were
created until unrighteousness was found in you.
(19:47):
And so then it lists his, his pride.
Verse 17. Your heart was proud because of
your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for
the sake of your splendor. And so I cast you to the ground.
Is that Speaking of the King of Tyre or is that speaking?
About the king of Tyre, but morethan the king of Tyre, like in
other words, is the king of Tyrejust a manifestation of the
(20:10):
greater evil, the ultimate evil that empowered the king of Tyre?
There's a lot of inks built on how to understand that passage.
And Isaiah 14, there could be some really deeply significant
theological work happening in those prophets.
Isaiah and Ezekiel revelation seems to touch on, you know,
Jesus seeing Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
(20:31):
So he calls out Satan's fall from heaven.
But is that happening in in the OR is that happening at the end
of the age? Is that happening in the
eschaton or is that happening that has happened in the past?
You have to make a decision about that too in that passage.
And so I think what we can say is there must be something in
those passages that is reflecting through the king of
(20:52):
back past them to this person ofevil.
That's being of evil, not person, but being.
And so that might be a window into what happened.
Regardless, we need to be careful to say we can't be sure
and the Bible has seen fit not to be explicit about that.
(21:13):
And so we should be careful to say, here are some options and
you should go do your own work and, and see, those are the,
those are the major passages, though.
Job one of course, comes to mindtoo, where Job, you know, Satan
comes in, basically gives a report to God in heaven.
And so that's where God says, have you considered my servant
Job? Where the creators, I would say
(21:36):
you could say maybe tempting thetempter, but you want to be
careful about that because God doesn't tempt anyone.
James 1. So in other words, there's just
some, some things happening here.
We're like, whoa, he is in the throne room.
Satan is he's giving a report toGod and he comes in with the
other angels to do so. So we just don't know.
(21:56):
I, I would say though, that thatthose are the passages you could
go to. Guys, we have a few minutes
left. Can we answer maybe one more
question? And maybe we, I don't know
whether we revisit some of theseother questions another time or
not. But this last question is coming
from someone who has a little bit of an explanation to make.
(22:18):
Please explain faith and repentance and how they relate
to each other. It would seem like one couldn't
repent unless they were already regenerated and had genuine
faith, because repentance is a fruit of faith, not how to
appropriate salvation. Yet the Bible usually frames
things as repent and believe, implying one should repent and
(22:39):
then they can believe. So does repentance unto life
refer to a change in what you believe in, or is it turning
away from sin? Is changing your mind for
salvation and turning from sin afruit, in other words?
And then then they sign off. Cheers.
Which means good luck. Good luck to you.
Yeah, Thanks for that. Thanks for the cheers, the good
(23:01):
luck. But that's obviously there's a
couple of issues in play here. So do you guys want to crack
that open? We have just about 3 or 4
minutes. 3 or 4 minutes. Yeah, I know for all that.
Yep, Yep. Oh man.
Well. I have a couple of quick
responses. You can you go for it.
Come on, we want to hear your. Well, I think it's really
important to recognize the relationship between
(23:21):
regeneration and faith. So regeneration, which is the,
the monarchistic work of the spirit, the spirit alone
regenerates or causes someone's soul to be born again, right?
And that is taken from John 3, the classic passage on that John
three one through 8. And the spirit blows where he
blows, the wind blows where he blows.
Jesus is saying to Nicodemus, who's asking about this, right?
(23:43):
I mean, he's not totally, but heis.
And Jesus basically preempts thequestion to say like, unless
you're born again, you cannot, you cannot see the Kingdom of
heaven. And that discussion about
regeneration, you'll notice in John 3 precedes Jesus's
discussion with Nicodemus about belief, faith.
And so Jesus, I think, is givinga master class to the premier
(24:06):
teacher of the law in Israel, Nicodemus, a master class in
this this reality about conversion, regeneration
precedes belief for faith. And that is classic John, by the
way, the Gospel of John. So, so we have to say to this
question that that regeneration precedes faith.
(24:27):
And if you coupled that with Ephesians 28 and 9, faith is a
gift and so and so is salvation.Ephesians 28 and 9, if you want
to get into the grammar and all that, you can, but, but faith is
a gift, as is salvation in general.
So you would say that regeneration is a work of the
Spirit, right, Purely by the Spirit's sovereign grace.
OK, wakes up the the person fromthe spiritual dead and causes
(24:49):
them to see, to see the glories of Christ, the glories of the
gospel and and place their faithin Christ.
But that itself is a gift of grace.
And so regeneration that wakes up from the spiritual dead.
Gift of grace. Faith to believe, which is
immediately consequent. I mean not like chronologically,
but logically, theologically, faith follows regeneration.
(25:11):
John 3 Then that is also a gift of grace.
And so then what do you do with repentance?
Well, repentance is also a gift of grace.
Remember when Peter's giving thereport about Cornelius in Acts
11, he says, look what God's done with, I mean with the
Gentiles and, and the response in the church here in the report
is OK, Well, that I guess we've seen that God has also extended
(25:33):
or given the gift of repentance to the Gentiles to the gift of
repentance. That's grace.
And so all of this in in the work of conversion, the
salvation of the soul is by grace.
But is repentance like the questions asking here, does it
come before belief as a condition of belief or after?
(25:55):
And I think we have to be careful with biblical language
here. Repent and believe, repent and
believe. Those are really just flip sides
of the same coin. So the doctrine of conversion is
comprised of faith and repentance.
You can't have one without the other.
So this question is a little bit, I would want to say humbly
to this brother or sister. I don't know who that who this
is. It's not one or the other.
(26:17):
It's flip sides of the same coinhappening at the in in the same
operation of conversion. So you can't to to be converted
to Christ. You can't believe and not
repent. You can't repent not believe.
So you can't you can't pull apart what God has put together.
And I would just say like it's not really the best question to
think about. Is it fair to say that
(26:39):
repentance is a fruit of faith? Well, yes, but it's all of grace
and if faith is heads, repentance is tails.
And so you can't separate the coin.
So I would want to be careful with this brother or sister to
say however you want to see the ordering of these things.
They they happen at the same time.
The doctrine of conversion is faith and repentance.
(27:01):
It's repent and believe in the gospel.
They're not repent then believe,it's repent and believe.
And so those stand together or they fall together.
That's my quick thought on that.Yeah, and you're using faith and
belief synonymously. Synonymously, right?
Faith would be the noun, belief would be the verb.
That's how you. Use word in the Greek right.
Yeah, OK. So make sure you're using it
(27:21):
like that because I think a lot of times most people think about
repentance disconnected from faith.
Right, Right. Jesus comes on the stage and
Mark 115 says that the time is the Kingdom as as a hand repent
and believe in the gospel. And so it's it's that repentance
turning from your sin, but turning to Christ.
And there are tons of religion, tons of people, regardless of
(27:44):
their religious convictions thatare trying to stop sinning.
But what we're saying is coupledtogether with faith specifically
in the work of Christ and in turning to him.
That is what at least a lot of us have have spoken of as
vertical repentance. So faith and repentance that
that turn both sides of that coin has that vertical element
(28:07):
to it, not just trying to knock off your sin.
So I think it when someone asks a question like this, it's just
understanding the dynamics of each one of these words and how
they work. I think they start to fall into
into place. Now, I don't think that we can
all describe it exactly how as you just did right there and
willing to be recorded on something like that.
(28:27):
However, just understanding the different dynamics about what's
in play here. I think all of a sudden
different things in your Bible like these words start to jump
off the page. Like I understand that.
I understand it's faith in something, not just faith just
for the sake of faith. That repentance is a turn, a
change of mind is like turning towards something though for and
it's an inward. Anyways, all those things start
(28:48):
to come into play, which makes it start to sound a little bit
less like a Bible quiz and more just like, oh, this is what it
means to follow Christ. That's so good.
Yeah, all of this, like you said, every step along the way
is a gift and grace. And I think one thing you can
get yourself into trouble here is if you decide to remove one
of these things and for example,regeneration, it's quickly
(29:11):
allows you to start putting yourself into the mix and saying
it's not a gift of grace becauseI didn't need regeneration.
So it's just helpful to have allthese things in place.
Timing gets a little bit challenging, but it's helpful to
just continue to emphasize, oh man, it's all, it's all the Lord
right in this moment of salvation, this miracle that
(29:31):
happens. And it's, yeah, it's just
helpful to to continue to turn to Christ in that way and turn
away from sin to something, not just to do a good work.
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, well, I'm really like, I
love what you guys turn away from sin and turn to someone,
right? Yeah.
Yeah, the image I like to use isthat you're sinking in your sin.
You're not running away from God.
You are doing that too. I like the image built more like
(29:52):
I think this is from, is this holiness by grace?
I think you're sinking in your sin.
It's quicksand. It's sucking you down.
You're going to die and you cry out all you can do.
You can't move, you can't do anything.
All you can do is cry out. And then Jesus by his grace,
reaches down and pulls you out. So the move and repentance is
I'm, I'm actually not running away.
I'm sinking in my sin. And then you came and you set my
(30:16):
feet upon a rock, the rock beingChrist.
So I like that image because we're literally doing nothing.
We're not even running. We're just the weight of our sin
is like some of the pure it's, it's pulling you into hell and
the only thing you can do is cryout for mercy.
And even that is the regenerating work of the Spirit,
right? The cry is because you've been
(30:36):
awakened and, and and that out of that grace comes the gift to
believe that Christ can save me and he most surely will.
So it really is all of grace, right?
Praise the Lord for that great question.
Well, guys, thank you for that. Our time is already gone.
We didn't even get through all the other questions, but maybe
we'll revisit these another time.
(30:57):
So we'll save these and and makesure we maybe do another
episode. I don't know that we'll do a
third right away, but maybe at some point we'll hold these and
come back to them because these are really, really good
questions. And if you asked one of these,
thank you so much for submittingthem and hopefully they're
helpful for you as you listen orwatch.
So thank you for joining us again on this episode of
Afterward, a podcast with extended conversations like even
(31:19):
these questions here about topics that really matter in
life and ministry. Thanks guys.
See you. Thank you.
Welcome back to Afterward, a podcast about extended
conversations regarding topics that matter in life and a
ministry. Matt and Jeremy, welcome back.
Thank. You all right?
We're here. Dressed exactly the same way,
which means this must be Part 2,Part 2 of what was part one last
episode where we cracked open questions that we received at
(00:31):
one of our Sunday services called the Grey Family Gathering
in March or May rather. And so we have received a bunch
of questions from people when weasked them to submit them, and
we said we were going to try to answer them on the podcast.
We have way too many to get to. And people ask questions, as I
said in the previous episode, kind of all over the map.
So some were like, just want to be more personal information.
(00:52):
Some were deeply doctrinal. Some were serious, some were
more lighthearted guys. A very serious one was this one
at the GFG. Why no dunk tank?
Are you a chicken? So.
I did it my first year. Did you guys know that?
So I came on, I came on staff in2017, but in May I wasn't even
(01:18):
on. I came in the fall.
So, but it was, I think it was announced that I was coming.
So yeah, in May of 2017, I was in the dunk tank and it was
freezing. There is a bunch of junk
floating in the water. Maybe some of the people that I
was following I'm. Going to call a name out you
are. Oh yeah, I know for.
Sure. Anyways, that was not my most
favorite entry into the. Entry into ministry dunked in
(01:40):
the ministry. Yes, yes, yeah.
There's some potential injury there.
You know, I think you gotta be worried about some liability.
Yeah, you know. I well, the reason there's a
reason for that, it's because I did the duck type 2.
And so you have by meaning, meaning you're actually the one
getting dunked. OK, so they, unless you're in a
dunk tank, you don't know about the high potential for some
(02:03):
tailbone issues. Like I went in after Gary
Pollard. I'll call out his name because
Gary is with the Lord and Darcy would not mind his wife.
And we, I had to get in after Gary.
So there was, can I just, I'll say it like this, There was a
little bit of water displacementthat happened with Gary and low
in the tank. It was a little low and we were
(02:24):
not refilling it. And so I got up next.
And so of course, everybody who ever wanted to, you know, have
anything against you lines up tohit the massive target.
The target's huge. And so I sat on that little
metal platform. Yeah, it's that big.
The platform you can barely evensit on.
It's metal. Well, at least the version that
we had. So when I sat on that thing, as
(02:47):
soon as someone threw the ball and hit it, the thing would drop
this way and you would your behind would slide down the
metal. But this is a nice ledge right
here to slide down too. So you would slide your spine
down that bad boy and then land in the water.
That was very, very it. The water level was way down.
And so more often than once I'm like, boom, hit the bottom, boom
(03:08):
hit the bottom and everybody thought it was great.
And I'm like, it is great. It's very fun for you.
And of course you can't complainand you can't say anything
because you know, you're on staff and you can't do that kind
of stuff. You have to have it with a smile
on. But you're sitting on that
little plank thinking, I seriously, I'm going to injure
myself here. And so why no dunk tank?
I, I would like to go on record to say I'm not chicken.
(03:30):
I've done it and I've done my time.
You know what I mean? Like I've done it.
Paid enough if if we bring the dunk tank back, it's it's time
to bring the next, you know, group of unsuspecting victims up
there and we'll keep the water level up.
You haven't done it yet. Matt's up.
But I just, I just want to go record.
I'm going to be looking at the dunk tank before we wreck it,
(03:51):
rent it, just to make sure that we don't injure somebody.
Well, I want to call out becauseZach Harris gladly volunteered
and said I would go in the dunk tank.
Yeah, putting him on record. Yes.
That he said that he's got a good idea.
Yeah, yeah. With much zeal and gusto, Yeah.
So yeah, he'd go for it. It is a bit of a he's young
enough to he's young enough to recover his tailbone.
(04:11):
That's true. That's true.
And you could treat him if he injuries himself.
Yeah, OK. Here we're doing it.
Yep, all right. OK, boy.
Not at all. Related.
Another question one person wrote in, I love learning about
the staff on the podcast, like when we all interviewed each
other, it would be great to hearfrom other members of the staff.
Can we bring other staff on to the podcast in the future?
(04:34):
So this speaks to a little bit of our philosophy of the
podcast. So do you guys want to fill that
in? Yes, not yes, I want to fill it
in, but yes, there's the answer to the question.
I think we're hoping to, to eventually bring folks in and I,
I think what we would try to do is realizing the audience, make
sure that we're able to have them speaking into topics that
(04:54):
would be applicable for those who are listening in, both to
get to know them, but also just to learn from them.
A man, we've got some people on staff that just drop gold.
And so it would be, yeah, sweet to to just be able to pick their
brain and, and people even get asampling of what what the
quality of the staff are that wehave.
(05:15):
Yeah. Yeah.
So yes, in time, we'd love to. Yeah, anybody who goes in the
dunk tank, then. Oh.
Oh, that's. Entry point The entry OK.
I don't think we're putting women on the yeah.
That's a really rough. Call, they get a.
Pass. Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
That's fair. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't think
about the relationship between those two questions.
Matt, great job. There is a relationship there
(05:35):
though. I, I would say too, we want to,
philosophically, we're trying tothink about mainly our local
church listening to this and watching this, but then also
acknowledging, whoa, I mean, there's obviously a lot of other
people who are too. And so we can't just make it a
personal interview with one of our staff members who our church
knows, but somebody who's not from our church would have no
idea who the person is and probably wouldn't have as much
(05:57):
interest in personal information.
But the benefit of that, like you said, is man, look at the
ministry, the wisdom and the ministry that they can provide
by way of just practical wisdom.That really can be a benefit to,
you know, somebody not from our church.
So when we bring other staff on,that is going to be one of the
the challenges and the opportunities is how do we
introduce them to an audience beyond our church, but then have
(06:20):
it be so for our church to connect with them in a in a
different way too. So yeah, we'll try to thread
that needle. Yeah.
And Matt and I will step away atsome combo to allow you to
interview them, right. So that's coming, no?
I think we're just going to keepadding people just keep going.
Yeah, we'll just kind of wrap them around, yeah, six or seven
or eight more mics, more mics. OK, Next question, Is it
inherently sinful? Again, this is pivoting, all
(06:43):
right? Is it inherently sinful to end a
friendship, or should there be asort of default attempt to
reconcile and reconnect? Man, that's really a good
question. Is it inherently sinful to end a
friendship, or should there be asort of default attempt to
reconcile and reconnect? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a
(07:04):
great question without context. That makes it really hard.
Yeah, because a lot of the advice and counsel will be given
when when we're dealing with relationships and and mending
and reconciliation context matters big time.
Sometimes the offense like look,the the spectrum of an offense
(07:26):
can be anything to where the advice to them is.
You might be able to overlook that.
That shouldn't actually wedge put a wedge in your friendship
all the way to whoa, that is awful and could be criminal.
Possibly. Yeah, it could be criminal and
definitely doesn't mean that youshould continue in the same way
you did before and needs a completely different set of
(07:46):
counsel to be given there. And so forgiveness and
reconciliation, which are huge topics then can look different
depending on how you're speakingto somebody and the offense that
they're bringing to you. And so it does make this
question a little challenging without context, but I think big
picture we can maybe speak to it.
I agree Romans 12/18 talks aboutwhatever's however it's well,
(08:08):
how does it phrase it and as faras possible for you, live it
peaceably with all men. If I could answer the question
with a super quick story, I didn't get permission for this.
I'm leaving all the names out, but in our cornerstone class,
we're doing the, the homework that we go through in the self
confrontation manual forces people to answer this question.
Well, not this question, but basically, is there anyone that
(08:29):
you have not reconciled with that you now need to reach out
to? And this person was reading
through this like and thinking back to a friendship that was a
long time back and like, man, Lord, is it really do you really
want me to like we haven't spoken in years, but we had a
falling out. And so it nagged on this person
like, you know what, I think that's the Holy Spirit and
that's using Romans 12/18 like Ineed to do this.
(08:53):
So out of the blue is still in the area.
Reached out to this other personsay, can you get together?
They get together after years ofthat falling out and and the
person just lays it out. The word of God was strong in my
heart and I just want to ask foryour forgiveness for how I
handled this and that I don't even remember all the details.
I don't want to be and and it atodds with you.
(09:13):
I want to live in harmony. I have no idea what's even going
on in your life. And so there's a longer story as
you can imagine, but basically just said, please forgive me.
That woman who said that was setit to another woman.
The, the, the woman on the receiving end was totally moved
and said, I have, I got a divorce from my husband.
(09:34):
And given the fact of what how you are using scripture to then
try to mend the relationship gives me hope for my
relationship. And I don't remember exactly how
it ended, but basically she was saying, I'm going to go see if I
can make things right with my husband.
She was in an unbiblical divorce.
So basically it was just a ripple effect of reconciling and
she's like, if you can do this and we can be right after all
(09:56):
these years, I should be doing this in my life.
So anyways, that's just a quick little story.
But I do think that there is a, there is we want to make sure
that and even Matthew 5 would beanother one.
But there's other places that like we need to make sure that
we're not leaving it at odds because it's easier just to
agree to disagree. We need to reconcile.
(10:16):
We need to ask for forgiveness when that's there.
The other part of the question is do we need to be best buds
forever? And I can answer that.
Well, let me just answer it super quick.
My typical answer is like, we need to be in harmony with one
another. It's not singing the same note.
It doesn't mean you're walking around holding hands and you're
like your best BFFS all the time.
But you need to not be at odds with one another.
(10:37):
And so there is a time, I think to say, look, our friendship
needs it. We need to go a different way.
I still love you and I will do things that are deemed by the
people to be loving, but maybe we're not going to be hanging
out in the exact same way. Yeah, I've had people ask me,
well, how do I know that I'm at odds or that I need to make
things right? And one of the quick checks is
(10:58):
when you see that person particularly, this is so
important in the local church context.
If you're going to church with abrother or sister and you are
struggling in fellowship or you're unsure or you're holding
something, then the question is like, when do I need to make
things right? And some of this has to do, is
it continually coming into your mind?
Like in other words, are you dwelling on it or can we use
where we've been using meditating in a in honestly a
(11:20):
good way, in a sense of bitterness?
And then when you see the person, what's your gut
reaction? If you're like inclinationist, I
need to go the other way or likeimmediately brings to mind the
offense. Well, there's something there,
right? You need to you need to make
that needs to be worked on rightin your heart.
So I think those are a couple just gut checks.
(11:40):
They're not perfect, but just some things to think about.
Yeah, I, I was thinking about a biblical example that I actually
do reflect on in, in my own lifeand even in ministry when I'm
working with someone who has just a, a friendship that's gone
South or even just fellowship that's gone South and holding
out the hope of Paula and Mark. So Paul and Barnabas, Acts 1539
(12:05):
between Paul and Barnabas, therearose a sharp disagreement so
that they separated from each other because Paul thought it
was best not to take John Mark with them who had deserted them
before in the work. And so Barnabas basically
saying, I think we should take John Mark with us on the second
missionary journey. Paul says, I don't think we
should take him. He left us on the 1st missionary
journey. And that word strong
(12:25):
disagreement is paroxysm like meaning they had a seizure, a
fissure in their relationship. It was a cataclysm devastating
to Paul and Barnabas's relationship.
This this decision of what to dowith John Mark.
And literally they separated. They're done like their
relationship. They just they it was a breach.
They moved it one way and then the other.
(12:47):
And that was some of what the Lord used by the way, to drive
Paul up into Asia Minor and thenover into Macedonia on the
second missionary journey. So the Lord totally used and
that's something that I want to say here, the Lord totally used
the Fisher, the sharp disagreement, the the, the real
breach in their relationship. God was at work and I, I, I
(13:10):
mentioned that to people sometimes like God's not absent
from this breach. He can work through it and in
this breach, but let's also always hold out the hope of what
happens later in Paul's life. At the end of his life, he says
second Timothy 411. Only Luke is with me now, but
get John Mark and bring him withyou.
(13:31):
He's saying this to Timothy because he's very useful for me
in ministry and I love that. Like just, and you've talked
about this a lot when teaching through Barnabas, I'm sure.
Just that is the exact opposite of what Paul esteemed John Mark
to be about. He esteemed John Mark to be a
quitter, but at the end of Paul's life, he's saying bring
him with you. He is super, super useful in
(13:54):
ministry to me, to me. And so that means that paroxysm
that relationship had been had been healed.
And so I don't know that we everhave relationships or
friendships that are that are that bad where they have to just
totally end. But you see it with Paul and
Barnabas. It didn't end it.
It like separated, but always hold out the idea that there
(14:14):
could be some restoration down the line.
And so I, I mentioned that to people like don't give up.
But it if you've worked through rest restoration, if you've made
every attempt to be at peace andin good conscience, it just
isn't working. That's OK.
God could do work in this that you might not be able to control
or might not know about. That's OK.
(14:35):
So just the hope of that as you would maybe walk away from a
friendship that God might have it be revisited.
And if not, he's at work in it. And I whoever asked this
question, I just wouldn't want to give them that hope.
You know, it's not inherently sinful.
It can be though. You guys have been talking about
that. So get some counsel.
But then man, if you've done everything you can to be at
(14:56):
peace, then it's OK and just trust the Lord.
So is that fair? Listen, there's a lot of other
questions. Can I just scan down to another
one here? And this is pivoting again.
So these are disconnected. But another question was if
heaven is perfect and without sin, how could Satan before
creation have had pride to want to be God and fall away and be
(15:20):
thrown out with the other fallenangels in heaven?
It's a long question. Let me read it again.
If heaven is perfect and withoutsin, how could Satan before
creation have had pride to want to be God and fall away and be
thrown out with the other fallenangels of heaven?
So this is a question of like how could this have happened?
(15:41):
And so the the question how is Ithink imperative for us to think
through. You guys have any initial
thoughts? My initial thought is this is a
good question that you wouldn't want to dismiss too quickly out
of your own mind. So sometimes we have questions.
You're like, I don't know what the Bible says about that.
Just it's OK, Like let it sit there.
And so I think it's just good tobe inquisitive about these kinds
(16:04):
of things. It's a lot different though,
when you're asking the question,asking the Lord even of this
question, and we can do it with our own life.
Why did this happen? Why did you allow all that kind
of stuff? But demanding an answer for it
is different. So I think asking the question
is great. Demanding that we have an answer
to our own satisfaction is way different.
(16:26):
So I'm game to answer the former.
Don't want to jump into the ladder?
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I think the Lord reveals
through His Word what we need toknow.
So we have much more detail about how man fell, right?
So it's there's much more detailthere of external temptation by
Satan using the things here thathe fell with, by tempting to and
(16:52):
looking to tempt with pride, right, and with the desire to be
like God. So you don't know how to mirror
that on to Satan's fall that clearly when you have a creator
and a created being and there's any comparison done, there's
room in that, in that bridge, inthat gap between creator and
created for something to happen.And, and we don't know how Satan
(17:15):
fell. We just know, hey, this is how
man fell. And it sure seems like there was
some sort of similar lines of thinking, but who was tempting
Satan? I mean, you know, like so it's a
different setup between creator and created to lead to that
fall. Yeah, I, I, guys, I, I
appreciate that. I think we, we do need to be
(17:36):
careful. I, I don't, we don't have the
question of how it happened. Just we have statements that you
would have to draw some interpretational decisions on in
order to say that that this is informing Satan's fall.
Because, yeah, we have just a lot more detail on and it would
make sense that it serves the purposes of the Scripture.
(17:58):
The purposes of the Scripture are the glorification of God and
the salvation of sinners throughthe personal work of Jesus
Christ, right. So, so we would want to say if
it doesn't serve that immediate purpose, it's not going to be
majored on. Well, you can't reverse the fall
of Satan. So he's not going to he's not
going to in that sense, he's he's only going to serve the the
cause of the grand purposes of redemption from an antithetic or
(18:22):
antipathetic position. So we're not going to be told a
lot about how just that he was there at the beginning in the
garden to, you know, to to temptEve and Adam to fall.
The there are a couple of passages that maybe speak to it,
though, if you want to make thisinterpretive decision.
Isaiah 14 would be one of them about how he wanted to lift
(18:44):
himself up to be like God. And that sounds very similar to
what happens in the Garden of Eden.
And then in Ezekiel 28, you haveanother extended lament over the
king of Tyre, who sounds a lot like Lucifer.
In fact, let me just read a couple of selections And you can
go like, oh, wow, maybe that's maybe that's meant to be
(19:05):
describing Satan at his own fall.
This is what it says. Ezekiel 28 verse 11, The word of
the Lord came to me, Son of man,raise a lamentation over the
king of Tyre and say to him, thus says the Lord God, you are
the signet of perfection, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty.
And this is interesting. You were in Eden, the garden of
(19:26):
God. Every precious stone was your
covering, and he lists all the precious stones on the day that
you were created. You are prepared as an anointed
guardian cherub. I placed you.
You are on the holy mountain of God in the midst of the stones
of fire. You walked.
You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were
created until unrighteousness was found in you.
(19:47):
And so then it lists his, his pride.
Verse 17. Your heart was proud because of
your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for
the sake of your splendor. And so I cast you to the ground.
Is that Speaking of the King of Tyre or is that speaking?
About the king of Tyre, but morethan the king of Tyre, like in
other words, is the king of Tyrejust a manifestation of the
(20:10):
greater evil, the ultimate evil that empowered the king of Tyre?
There's a lot of inks built on how to understand that passage.
And Isaiah 14, there could be some really deeply significant
theological work happening in those prophets.
Isaiah and Ezekiel revelation seems to touch on, you know,
Jesus seeing Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
(20:31):
So he calls out Satan's fall from heaven.
But is that happening in in the OR is that happening at the end
of the age? Is that happening in the
eschaton or is that happening that has happened in the past?
You have to make a decision about that too in that passage.
And so I think what we can say is there must be something in
those passages that is reflecting through the king of
(20:52):
back past them to this person ofevil.
That's being of evil, not person, but being.
And so that might be a window into what happened.
Regardless, we need to be careful to say we can't be sure
and the Bible has seen fit not to be explicit about that.
(21:13):
And so we should be careful to say, here are some options and
you should go do your own work and, and see, those are the,
those are the major passages, though.
Job one of course, comes to mindtoo, where Job, you know, Satan
comes in, basically gives a report to God in heaven.
And so that's where God says, have you considered my servant
Job? Where the creators, I would say
(21:36):
you could say maybe tempting thetempter, but you want to be
careful about that because God doesn't tempt anyone.
James 1. So in other words, there's just
some, some things happening here.
We're like, whoa, he is in the throne room.
Satan is he's giving a report toGod and he comes in with the
other angels to do so. So we just don't know.
(21:56):
I, I would say though, that thatthose are the passages you could
go to. Guys, we have a few minutes
left. Can we answer maybe one more
question? And maybe we, I don't know
whether we revisit some of theseother questions another time or
not. But this last question is coming
from someone who has a little bit of an explanation to make.
(22:18):
Please explain faith and repentance and how they relate
to each other. It would seem like one couldn't
repent unless they were already regenerated and had genuine
faith, because repentance is a fruit of faith, not how to
appropriate salvation. Yet the Bible usually frames
things as repent and believe, implying one should repent and
(22:39):
then they can believe. So does repentance unto life
refer to a change in what you believe in, or is it turning
away from sin? Is changing your mind for
salvation and turning from sin afruit, in other words?
And then then they sign off. Cheers.
Which means good luck. Good luck to you.
Yeah, Thanks for that. Thanks for the cheers, the good
(23:01):
luck. But that's obviously there's a
couple of issues in play here. So do you guys want to crack
that open? We have just about 3 or 4
minutes. 3 or 4 minutes. Yeah, I know for all that.
Yep, Yep. Oh man.
Well. I have a couple of quick
responses. You can you go for it.
Come on, we want to hear your. Well, I think it's really
important to recognize the relationship between
(23:21):
regeneration and faith. So regeneration, which is the,
the monarchistic work of the spirit, the spirit alone
regenerates or causes someone's soul to be born again, right?
And that is taken from John 3, the classic passage on that John
three one through 8. And the spirit blows where he
blows, the wind blows where he blows.
Jesus is saying to Nicodemus, who's asking about this, right?
(23:43):
I mean, he's not totally, but heis.
And Jesus basically preempts thequestion to say like, unless
you're born again, you cannot, you cannot see the Kingdom of
heaven. And that discussion about
regeneration, you'll notice in John 3 precedes Jesus's
discussion with Nicodemus about belief, faith.
And so Jesus, I think, is givinga master class to the premier
(24:06):
teacher of the law in Israel, Nicodemus, a master class in
this this reality about conversion, regeneration
precedes belief for faith. And that is classic John, by the
way, the Gospel of John. So, so we have to say to this
question that that regeneration precedes faith.
(24:27):
And if you coupled that with Ephesians 28 and 9, faith is a
gift and so and so is salvation.Ephesians 28 and 9, if you want
to get into the grammar and all that, you can, but, but faith is
a gift, as is salvation in general.
So you would say that regeneration is a work of the
Spirit, right, Purely by the Spirit's sovereign grace.
OK, wakes up the the person fromthe spiritual dead and causes
(24:49):
them to see, to see the glories of Christ, the glories of the
gospel and and place their faithin Christ.
But that itself is a gift of grace.
And so regeneration that wakes up from the spiritual dead.
Gift of grace. Faith to believe, which is
immediately consequent. I mean not like chronologically,
but logically, theologically, faith follows regeneration.
(25:11):
John 3 Then that is also a gift of grace.
And so then what do you do with repentance?
Well, repentance is also a gift of grace.
Remember when Peter's giving thereport about Cornelius in Acts
11, he says, look what God's done with, I mean with the
Gentiles and, and the response in the church here in the report
is OK, Well, that I guess we've seen that God has also extended
(25:33):
or given the gift of repentance to the Gentiles to the gift of
repentance. That's grace.
And so all of this in in the work of conversion, the
salvation of the soul is by grace.
But is repentance like the questions asking here, does it
come before belief as a condition of belief or after?
(25:55):
And I think we have to be careful with biblical language
here. Repent and believe, repent and
believe. Those are really just flip sides
of the same coin. So the doctrine of conversion is
comprised of faith and repentance.
You can't have one without the other.
So this question is a little bit, I would want to say humbly
to this brother or sister. I don't know who that who this
is. It's not one or the other.
(26:17):
It's flip sides of the same coinhappening at the in in the same
operation of conversion. So you can't to to be converted
to Christ. You can't believe and not
repent. You can't repent not believe.
So you can't you can't pull apart what God has put together.
And I would just say like it's not really the best question to
think about. Is it fair to say that
(26:39):
repentance is a fruit of faith? Well, yes, but it's all of grace
and if faith is heads, repentance is tails.
And so you can't separate the coin.
So I would want to be careful with this brother or sister to
say however you want to see the ordering of these things.
They they happen at the same time.
The doctrine of conversion is faith and repentance.
(27:01):
It's repent and believe in the gospel.
They're not repent then believe,it's repent and believe.
And so those stand together or they fall together.
That's my quick thought on that.Yeah, and you're using faith and
belief synonymously. Synonymously, right?
Faith would be the noun, belief would be the verb.
That's how you. Use word in the Greek right.
Yeah, OK. So make sure you're using it
(27:21):
like that because I think a lot of times most people think about
repentance disconnected from faith.
Right, Right. Jesus comes on the stage and
Mark 115 says that the time is the Kingdom as as a hand repent
and believe in the gospel. And so it's it's that repentance
turning from your sin, but turning to Christ.
And there are tons of religion, tons of people, regardless of
(27:44):
their religious convictions thatare trying to stop sinning.
But what we're saying is coupledtogether with faith specifically
in the work of Christ and in turning to him.
That is what at least a lot of us have have spoken of as
vertical repentance. So faith and repentance that
that turn both sides of that coin has that vertical element
(28:07):
to it, not just trying to knock off your sin.
So I think it when someone asks a question like this, it's just
understanding the dynamics of each one of these words and how
they work. I think they start to fall into
into place. Now, I don't think that we can
all describe it exactly how as you just did right there and
willing to be recorded on something like that.
(28:27):
However, just understanding the different dynamics about what's
in play here. I think all of a sudden
different things in your Bible like these words start to jump
off the page. Like I understand that.
I understand it's faith in something, not just faith just
for the sake of faith. That repentance is a turn, a
change of mind is like turning towards something though for and
it's an inward. Anyways, all those things start
(28:48):
to come into play, which makes it start to sound a little bit
less like a Bible quiz and more just like, oh, this is what it
means to follow Christ. That's so good.
Yeah, all of this, like you said, every step along the way
is a gift and grace. And I think one thing you can
get yourself into trouble here is if you decide to remove one
of these things and for example,regeneration, it's quickly
(29:11):
allows you to start putting yourself into the mix and saying
it's not a gift of grace becauseI didn't need regeneration.
So it's just helpful to have allthese things in place.
Timing gets a little bit challenging, but it's helpful to
just continue to emphasize, oh man, it's all, it's all the Lord
right in this moment of salvation, this miracle that
(29:31):
happens. And it's, yeah, it's just
helpful to to continue to turn to Christ in that way and turn
away from sin to something, not just to do a good work.
Yeah, it's good. Yeah, well, I'm really like, I
love what you guys turn away from sin and turn to someone,
right? Yeah.
Yeah, the image I like to use isthat you're sinking in your sin.
You're not running away from God.
You are doing that too. I like the image built more like
(29:52):
I think this is from, is this holiness by grace?
I think you're sinking in your sin.
It's quicksand. It's sucking you down.
You're going to die and you cry out all you can do.
You can't move, you can't do anything.
All you can do is cry out. And then Jesus by his grace,
reaches down and pulls you out. So the move and repentance is
I'm, I'm actually not running away.
I'm sinking in my sin. And then you came and you set my
(30:16):
feet upon a rock, the rock beingChrist.
So I like that image because we're literally doing nothing.
We're not even running. We're just the weight of our sin
is like some of the pure it's, it's pulling you into hell and
the only thing you can do is cryout for mercy.
And even that is the regenerating work of the Spirit,
right? The cry is because you've been
(30:36):
awakened and, and and that out of that grace comes the gift to
believe that Christ can save me and he most surely will.
So it really is all of grace, right?
Praise the Lord for that great question.
Well, guys, thank you for that. Our time is already gone.
We didn't even get through all the other questions, but maybe
we'll revisit these another time.
(30:57):
So we'll save these and and makesure we maybe do another
episode. I don't know that we'll do a
third right away, but maybe at some point we'll hold these and
come back to them because these are really, really good
questions. And if you asked one of these,
thank you so much for submittingthem and hopefully they're
helpful for you as you listen orwatch.
So thank you for joining us again on this episode of
Afterward, a podcast with extended conversations like even
(31:19):
these questions here about topics that really matter in
life and ministry. Thanks guys.
See you. Thank you.
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