May 30, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of afterWord, we continue our conversation on private worship — not just time in the Word, but the often-overlooked discipline of biblical meditation. What does it mean to truly meditate on Scripture? How does it differ from the emptying practices of the world? Why do so many believers rush through the Word without lingering in it?Together, we explore how biblical meditation awakens the affections, anchors us in trials, and fuels meaningful prayer. With reflections on Psalm 1, Psalm 19, Joshua 1, and more, we unpack how meditation isn't passive but active — a way to fill the mind and stir the soul.Whether you’re battling distraction, box-checking habits, or a desireless heart, this episode encourages you to slow down, press in, and be “swallowed up into God.” Join us as we recover this vital grace.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:08):
Welcome back, guys. Afterward, the podcast about
extended conversations regardingtopics that matter in life and
in ministry. Matt, thanks for joining us
again today. Jeremy, you guys as well?
Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah. And we're wanting to, I think as
we've talked about this episode in particular, carry on our
conversation from last time, which, yeah, I think it's really
(00:28):
kind of fundamental to who we want to be as a church.
We want to be making disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who
who know what it means, who enjoy what it means to worship
God, walk in love, witness the world, yes, but who worship God
fundamentally. And so last time we took some
time, I hope in a way that was helpful for our folks and for
others listening in or watching to think about, well, how do I
(00:50):
worship God or Christ privately in my own time in God's Word,
which can be a challenge for certain people, for some people,
for most people at different points, for all of us.
And I think that was a helpful conversation.
I want to see if we can shift a little bit here today, talk
about spending time with Lord still in that broad category.
(01:11):
But now with regard to private worship of Christ, think about
meditation, meditation and prayer kind of coupled together
that you can try to decouple them, I suppose, but in a lot of
ways they really belong togetherand and obviously belong to what
it means to worship the Lord privately.
With regard to reading the word to so we did separate reading
out the word, reading the word from what we're talking about
(01:33):
today. But let's spend some time now
focused on meditation. And when we talk about
meditation, I think we have a right to be a little bit
concerned to address, well, whatdo we not mean by meditation?
And I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that right
out of the gate. If we're talking about what
biblical meditation is, that's what we need to be talking about
(01:54):
because there's a lot of talk about meditation in the world
today, and that's not what we'retalking about.
So can you guys just kind of throw out what are we not
talking about with regard to meditation as a part of private
worship of Christ? Yeah, we can.
I think we need to reclaim the word a little bit, partly
because that word has been takenover really by Eastern religion
(02:16):
for the most part and worked into our regular society.
And some of the words we might think of now are that are really
popular, mindfulness, etcetera. So things that are in the world
recognize taking you above a superficial understanding of
what you're thinking on into a deeper understanding that's
going to have effects on you mind, body, spirit.
And so, yeah, that that word hasbeen used a lot.
(02:37):
And really, it needs to be reclaimed by Christianity.
Yeah, we're not talking about mindless repetition.
Not what we're talking about, right?
Not talking about emptying our minds.
That's not biblical meditation. Yeah, that's good.
That's good. I think you had a a meditative
(02:58):
posture you wanted us to see, didn't you?
Yeah. I've been asking you earlier.
Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, yeah.
Off. Air, we'll practice that
offline. Which fingers am I supposed to?
Can I see that's going to make all the difference?
I appreciate. You bringing that up?
Thank you. You bet.
It's good, of course, to. Start that's good, OK, but
listen front door into now biblical meditation.
We want to be aware that we're not calling our folks or calling
(03:20):
believers to that kind of meditation, a worldly
meditation. But when you think about kind of
a front door into the this, the biblical call to meditate, what
passages or passage comes to mind in your thinking, you guys?
Someone for me? Yeah.
Where are you? Oh, I.
Well, Psalm 1, Psalm 119, I had Jeremiah 15 open to where
(03:42):
Jeremiah talks about your words were found and I ate them and
your words became for me a joy and a delight in my heart.
Just another word picture that I'm sure we're going to get to
of consumption mulling over and then actually changes your
countenance and your mind. So I know, yeah.
That's good. Yeah.
Psalm One. Blessed is the man who walks not
in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of
(04:03):
sinners, nor sits in the seat ofscoffers, but his delight is in
the law of the Lord and on that law.
On his law he meditates day and night, constantly chewing on it.
And then that is what establishes him as a tree,
delighting on it, delighting in it, but then also meditating on
it. So that would be one of the
primary ones for me. It's good.
(04:25):
Yeah, I was thinking about Psalm19 myself at the end.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be
acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.
And in fact, that ties into I mean, this is amazing Psalm
regarding the revelation of the glory of God in or the
declaration of the glory of God in the heavens.
Also, though, with regard to God's Word, specifically his
(04:49):
divine revelation in his word. And then the the synopsis of
that, the words of my mouth after seeing the glory of God,
after, you know, rejoicing in the revelation of God's word,
then the psalmist speaking back to God.
I think I might be speaking about prayer there.
Let the words of my mouth and then the meditation of my heart.
There's a there is a bit of a delineation or distinction
(05:09):
between prayer and meditation. And yet they're coupled.
They did. One just goes hand in hand with
the other and and this prayer oflike man, Lord, let both be
acceptable, pleasing in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my
Redeemer and tied to the gospel in that way.
So yeah, I think would you guys want to go so far?
I mean, it just seems like to meit's it is assumed meditation
(05:34):
happening in our own hearts is assumed as a part of our private
worship. And we can multiply other
passages. And if you guys have others,
please feel free to throw them in to the mix.
But it's almost as if we want tosay as well that it's a, it's a
spiritual discipline or it's a, it's a practice of the Christian
life that we need to cultivate. It's not just enough to open our
(05:56):
Bibles to read God's Word to then pray through the the prayer
requests of the day, check that box, move on and and really
think to ourselves, yeah, we've,we've really worshipped the
Lord. I, I, it's almost like
meditation might be the missing link in some cases in our
people's lives. Maybe not.
(06:17):
But I know for me it can be where I just rush through my
worship of Christ and it can become, you've mentioned the
word box checking and you can, you can check the box, move on.
And you've not really sat, I mean, even Psalm 19, you've not
sat under the glories of God. You've not really sat in the
glories of his word. And so then you walk away and on
(06:40):
end of your day, you know, So this is a really important and
maybe sometimes neglected spiritual discipline.
I, I think so on that point, remember when we're talking
about when we're talking about our DeVos distractions and I
shared, I don't know if you remember, but I shared that one
of the difficult things for me is not so much getting into the
word because I've established a habit for many years on that.
(07:01):
But before I go, pat myself on the back on that which I should
never do. But for me, it's this element of
meditating on it, chewing on it,it, that's more of a struggle
for me. That's something that I would
say that I miss more frequently.I do that far less frequently
than I do actually open up my Bible.
So this is a struggle for me. Or it's something I need to work
(07:23):
on, put it that way. Yeah, it's good.
Yeah, I think the we're going toend up probably talking about
these this balance and meditation of both duty almost
like in some ways you have to make it a box check and delight.
I think about someone A-Team where it says, oh, how I love
your law. It is my meditation all the day.
So his affection is driving thatdesire to spend time like I'm.
(07:45):
So I'm in some ways you have to have it as a discipline.
And then in other ways your heart naturally, I think once
you start doing it, delights andit starts to just do it because
you want to like, oh, I just love spending time with the Lord
and I love meditating on him. And so you do it out of delight.
But I'll say just to get the ball rolling a lot of times you
have to start with discipline aspect of it, like I'm just
(08:07):
doing it just to get things going.
Yeah. Well, wouldn't you say that one
of the major differences between, I don't know what you
want to call it secular meditation or Eastern, you know,
forms of meditation versus biblical meditation is they're,
they're trying to empty your mind.
And we're trying and, and clearly the Scripture is calling
(08:29):
us in biblical meditation to fill our mind with the truth,
right. And and meditation is like
having your mind be filled with the truth so that you can be
able to meditate. Well, and can I take that
further? They want that.
My understanding is the emptyingof the mind gives rise to the
goodness in you. It's the higher level of you,
it's your higher spiritual form,whatever.
(08:51):
So if they understand in their anthropology that the goodness
is inside me, then emptying yourmind is really emptying all
distractions to let what they would say the goodness in you
come out. There's different ways that
different people have phrased that.
But yeah, biblically speaking, our understanding of our
anthropology is I do not have that goodness in me.
We're not talking about the HolySpirit.
They're just talking about in our, the natural man.
(09:12):
So we, the scriptures have something to say.
So we need to let them speak to our minds, speak to our hearts.
Let the, excuse me, let the Lordand let the word speak to us in
that what kind of a way? Because we do not have the
goodness that's going to come out of us.
So there's a radical difference understanding of anthropology
and their anthropology. Yeah, that's good.
(09:33):
Well, in some ways, if you emptyyour mind, that's also the way
to peace because oh man, I've not.
So nothing is then disturbing meor agitating me.
I'm emptying my mind as a sourceof peace, which would put you,
the person as ideally the the center point of peace, right?
So you're emptying your mind to get better understanding of you,
whereas we would say, oh, that'sactually the opposite.
(09:54):
You're filling your mind with Christ with with him being the
source of your peace, and he is your delight.
And so it really is putting man at the center versus God at the
center of how you're viewing this whole meditation.
Yeah. Architecture.
It's really good I. Don't mean to hijack this, but
I'm hearing us talk about this and thinking that, wait,
someone's saying, wait, hold on.There's no place for like just
(10:17):
getting the distractions away. So we're not talking about that
entirely, right? We're not talking about
simplifying your life and just call like calming down, turning
off the radio. We're we're not saying that
that's bad, right? Correct.
Right. OK, that's correct.
In fact, even bound up on and weshould get into what what is
biblical meditation? How does the Scripture itself
(10:39):
define what we're talking about?Because I think once you get
into those definitions, you understand what it is.
And it actually does involve that.
It does involve slowing down to a certain degree.
And we've comment on this before.
It does involve, I think maybe aconsideration of maybe we need
to unplug, you know, and, and just being alone.
(11:00):
Although I would say that there are, I, I've talked to some
couples who really, really do well spiritually by like
meditating together, praying together, you know, as a matter
of regular practice. And so that that could be in
play as well. But for the most part, it does
seem like as you get into meditation, it is you being
alone with God. And so let's get into that.
(11:21):
Let's get into like what biblically is meditation?
If we were to try to explain it,I actually think that one of the
best ways to get into it, and I think we talked about this right
before, is to talk about the terms for it there.
As far as I can tell, there's two main Hebrew terms for
meditate or meditation in the Old Testament.
(11:43):
It's not as much of A focus in the New Testament by way of the
term or terminology, but one term is Hege, right?
And that you could, I could go guttural, I could go guttural if
you want me to, But I, I will refrain for the sake of the
cleanliness of the microphone. But, but just it's, it's to
utter a low sound, it's to mutter, it's to read in an
(12:07):
undertone, to plot quietly, to talk out loud.
That's one Hebrew term. So, So what comes to mind there
is actually like some kind of low, almost like you're not
whispering, but you're kind of, it was sound like you're kind of
talking to someone who is not infront of you visibly, right.
(12:31):
The example that comes to mind, of course, with that is is
Hannah. And so you remember Hannah
praying in first Samuel and and she's accused by Eli of like
you're, you're talking to yourself.
What are you doing? You're a crazy woman.
And so that's because she was praying, she was meditating
effectively under her breath. And then the other term is
siach, and that just means to muse.
(12:54):
So you're musing on something. It can also mean you complain,
you're complaining about something, or again, it can mean
you're talking kind of to yourself.
And so those two terms are the dominant terms.
And I think it's helpful becauseit shows you that meditation,
again, a little different than like and substantively different
(13:15):
than secular meditation or Eastern meditation.
But even just the outworking of it is a little different.
I mean, there's an expectation here that you're kind of
muttering to yourself. You're kind of chirping.
There's almost like a chirping or a a reading to yourself and
an undertone is another nuance, kind of like you're reading your
Bible out loud a little bit to yourself.
(13:36):
You're complaining. The idea is you're arguing with
what you're interacting with or you have questions.
So that that is those are the two major terms is that have you
guys? I mean, would you have something
to add to that by way of like, Oh yeah, that's exactly what
this text is speaking to or how would you guys want to add to
that explanation? Anything coming to mind at all?
(13:59):
The what I'm going back to Psalm1.
And So what comes to mind for me, as you're saying that is
just what are we doing day and night?
If you're delighting, I have a desire for the for the word, for
the law of the Lord here. And then meditating on a day and
night, you're just you're thinking about it, you're
chewing on it, thinking about itfrom different angles.
What is this, what is that? How does that relate to this or
that? And so I don't know that it's
(14:19):
all that profound, except that it's it's something that you're
doing beyond just your worship time in the Lord or with the
Lord in the word. It's just something that you
carry throughout. And so that muttering, that
murmuring in a good way is something that just carries with
you in what what Psalm 1/2 is talking about day and night.
So, yeah, not all that profound on what you're saying though,
(14:41):
but that's what I would say, yeah.
Yeah, I was thinking about Psalm77.
There's a a lament Psalm where David's crying out on his bed
and asking the Lord for help there.
Excuse me, Asaph. And he is struggling and kind of
talking through his challenges with God, so muttering in some
(15:02):
ways. But then he does get down and
reorients his mind after he has questioned and talked with God.
And he says in verse 11, I shallremember the deeds of the Lord.
Surely I will remember your wonders of old.
I will meditate on all your workand muse on your deeds.
And then he gets into God's character from there.
And then God's actions with Exodus.
(15:24):
And so similarly for us, like meditation might not just be
confined to quiet time or to your Bible.
Sometimes it comes back up at times when you need it the most.
You're meditating on your bed with your tears coming down and
his eyelids are like pulled open.
He's reaching out to the Lord. That's the image in Psalm 77.
(15:45):
And then he's meditating and reorienting his mind back
towards God. And so it can come up in a lot
of things. We're going to we're confining a
little bit because we're talkingabout quiet time, but.
And the meditations come back toyou.
It's it's the point. They're very tied into that
memory that he brings in. Yeah, in verse 11, it's really.
Good. It's really good.
I have another comment you mentioned Psalm night or it's
(16:07):
not here on this podcast before.It's Psalm 19 talking about when
he at the end in verse 14, he says let the words of my mouth
and meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight.
He gets there as that on the tail end of what he has already
been thinking through. In other words, he didn't start
with meditation. What should I meditate on?
Let me look at the heavens and think about that.
Instead, he starts with the heavens in 19 one through 6.
(16:30):
Then he goes to the law of the Lord and how the law, all all
these different things. So general revelation, special
revelation, if you will. And then he says, who can
discern his errors? Declare me from hidden faults.
And you have the idea that he's thinking like if the Lord is
everywhere and the Lord is the one that speaks into my life,
what do I, how do I measure up to that?
And that is that then that is what he's calling meditation.
(16:53):
And so in that sense, what he has probably been musing on all
day long is thinking about, are there any hidden areas in my
life that I need to confess to you, Lord?
And so I just think it's different.
It's rather than let's start working on meditation, he's
starting in a totally different direction, so.
(17:15):
Well, that would make sense, right?
If if meditation is about filling your mind and that
becomes the basis for your meditation, then that would make
sense. Exactly what you just explained,
right? If we're talking about emptying
your mind, then you'd want to put that at the beginning and
not even talk about anything else.
And so, yeah, that's a great illustration or example of of
what we've been talking about. Yeah.
(17:35):
I was thinking you guys have another passage and that in
fact, actually, I think a passage that can be helpful for
us to consider. Joshua 18 But even when God's
commissioning Joshua to to beginthe conquest of the promised
land, God says be strong and courageous because you will
cause this people to inherit theland.
I swear to their fathers to giveto them.
(17:55):
Only be strong and very courageous.
Here's how. Being careful to do according to
all the law that Moses my servant commanded you.
And then in verse 8, this book of the law shall not depart from
your mouth, but you shall meditate on a day and night so
that you may be careful to do according to all that is written
in it. And then when you do that,
you'll be prosperous and you'll have good success.
So actually what seems to be thecase here is that meditation is
(18:19):
the gateway for Joshua. We don't want to make this a
formula that's narrative, but for Joshua to succeed in the
mission to which God appointed him.
And so it's not just that he needs to be careful to observe
the the law. He needs to meditate on to and,
and so the link between strengthand courage and then obedience
(18:40):
and meditation and all that goestogether.
And so, and then obviously in a way that is particular to Joshua
general for all of us, there'll be marks of faithfulness, right?
He'll, he'll prosper and have good success.
So I think that's good. I, I was also going to say, man,
you've got Isaac as an example of walking in the field and
meditating in the evening. Job and Job 15 meditated as
(19:05):
well. So you have other examples.
Jacob meditated and so we don't know what that looked like, but
we have an example in these in these faithful men's lives that
this is part of what they did ona in in a way that almost
doesn't even seem like it's worth anything more than just
like of course they did, you know, it's not mentioned with
particular emphasis. And, and sometimes what that can
(19:26):
mean is, yeah, because that's just what they did.
They just meditated on God's Word as a matter of regular
practice and life. So yeah, really helpful to think
through those different examples.
Matt. I'm not.
I didn't want to cut you off if you had something else you
wanted to add there too. Oh, I think as we're talking, a
lot of times we think of meditation almost as this
(19:46):
passive osmotic process. Like I'm holding my Bible up and
it's just kind of coming into mymind.
And hopefully, even with those definitions it's highlighting,
it's a conversation that you're actually speaking to yourself in
many ways as you take in God's Word, you're now informing
yourself and then speaking to yourself.
And Lloyd Jones has that quote about is you can't just listen
(20:08):
yourself. You need to talk to yourself
like you're active in your approach.
Because in many ways meditation is going on all the time.
It's, it's what are you choosingto do with it?
And what are you focusing your, your energy and efforts on and
filling, what are you filling your mind up with?
Because you're, you're living ina state of meditation
essentially all the time. Yep.
Yeah, I think you can just to kind of spin off of that.
(20:31):
I mean, what is worry and anxiety, but meditation, right?
I mean, so like you, you will toil and spin on your vocation
that you're just meditating on your vocation.
You can toil and spin on your family, like where your kids are
going and how they're doing wellor not doing well and how's it
how's my child going to do with this or that or this or that
that That's all meditation hobbies, recreation.
(20:55):
You're dreaming about that you know, both that you want to buy
and so you look up 95 websites on it.
What is that? Well, that's meditation.
I mean, you're you're reflectingon this thing that you want it
can go negative to what is lust.I mean, isn't lust meditating?
You're you're musing on this shell usually of a woman can be
(21:19):
of a man to greed is often times, if you want to think
about it, it's there's a meditative element to greed.
You want something and so you research it and you get jealous
when other people have it. It's, in other words, like,
well, isn't anger partly bitterness?
Bitterness is. Totally rehearsed, meditative.
Yeah. You're just replaying the
(21:39):
videotapes over and over again of the injury.
That's meditation. And so I don't know of much of
anything in life that we do, either sinful or or good, that
doesn't involve meditation. And so we're already really good
at it. It's just that we have to focus
it right and so. Can I add that we're really good
(22:02):
at it with things that we reallydesire?
Yeah. So bitterness would come not
just because it was some hurt that I had, but because it was a
hurt from something I care aboutor someone I care about.
That's what usually makes us bitter.
And so it's interesting when youthink about a boat, a boat,
(22:22):
let's take your boat example. You love the boat, so that's
what you do. So when it comes to our lack of
desire and ability to meditate on the Word of God, all of us,
three included, if we have trouble with it, it usually
speaks to our desire. Our heart is right there with
it. Why is this hard for me?
I don't desire it. So sometimes even starting there
(22:44):
with our meditation, Lord, what's wrong with me?
I understand that You're the treasure above all else.
What's wrong with me that I don't want to meditate on this?
So Yep. Throw that in there.
No, it's really good. Yeah.
I, we talked about a couple of resources, Matt, you and I did.
The one resource that I've always gone back to was written
(23:05):
by a guy named Joseph Hall. And in 16 O Six he wrote a book
on spiritual meditation, I thinkis what it's called.
He said that meditation begins in the understanding and ends in
the affections. It begins in the brain and
descends into the heart. It begins on earth and ascends
into heaven. It just seems like those are all
the right directions, right? So from understanding to
(23:26):
affection, brain to heart, earthto heaven, that's what
meditation is attempting to do. And so really I think if you
want to say it like this, it's taking something that would be
maybe natural. We naturally meditate on all
kinds of things and attempting to have by God's Spirit
something supernatural happen with the engagement with God's
(23:46):
Word and prayer. So well, let me ask you guys
something about the we've been talking about what meditation
is. Is there anything, anything that
you can think about that would be like what is the profit of
meditation? I think we want to save another
(24:06):
episode for how to practice biblical meditation.
But let me just ask you guys to think about that for a second.
And I want to, I want to try to get into it a little bit, crack
the door open myself about what are the benefits of meditation.
We've already been talking aboutit.
But but I love what you said earlier.
I just want to highlight it. I think biblical meditation in a
lot of ways is what does awaken our soul and and our affections,
(24:30):
the affections of our heart and set them afresh on God.
An honest word too for sure, buteven on God on the person of God
himself so just to even read Psalm one again, but his delight
is in the law of the Lord and hedoesn't wither he's fruitful in
everything he does. I mean just so much there.
(24:53):
That's that that speaks about awakening.
It's life giving like meditationgives you life that's not
eternal life, but like it's lifegiving to meditate like that
tree planted by the the water that doesn't wither your delight
for God's word will grow as you meditate.
I think Psalm 63 is another passage that reflects on this.
(25:18):
When I remember you upon my bed and meditate on you in the
watches of the night, I I love that because it's helpful for
people who can't sleep. So when you when you can't
sleep, what do you do? You can meditate, you know, all
through the night and the meditation that really gives you
help in the middle of the night when typically you tend to toil
and spin on bad things is how much God has been a help to you.
(25:41):
So you have been my help and in the shadow of your wings, I will
sing for joy. So you've been my help in the
past and in the shadow of your wings moving forward, I'm going
to sing for joy, the future orientation of it.
And meditation helps bridge the gap between past and and future
in the middle of the night. And So what a joy meditation can
be when you can't sleep. That's a major benefit.
(26:04):
Are you getting to that in your book?
OK. Do you want to say anything to
that? Yeah, no, I mean, we're talking
about just the the battle for your thought life and your mind,
right. So you again, we're, we make it
sound like there's a set time, like I'm going to meditate now
from 9:15 to 9:30 on what I've read.
(26:25):
That's not meditation, that's a very limited look at it, but
meditation, constant deposits being made.
So when you get into these spotsin the middle of the night, 3:00
AM, whatever, and you wake up, what are you going to pull out?
Like what's available then to, to fight the battle?
You not just fall into the spin cycle of either the next day or
(26:45):
the past day and either anxious about the coming one or you're
regretting the past one, something that's yanking you
either direction. So how are you going to steady
your mind into the spaces that God has given you?
And really it boils down to verysimple categories who God is and
what he has done. And if we can land on those two
and our thought life, it really stabilizes our thoughts, keeps
(27:07):
us from spinning and toiling andand giving us an anchor to hold
on to. That's like the majority of the
Psalms, right? You take the storms of life all
over the place, what brings themback, what anchors them down,
and it's who God is and what he's done.
Yeah. So having that deposit ahead of
time, which we talked about, I never told you in this previous
episode when you talked about guarding the good deposit, you
(27:28):
mentioned that so many years agonow.
It's always stuck with me in terms of what you get out of
your devotions, even if you don't quite remember everything
or totally get it. So I didn't.
I've never told you that was impactful in my life many years
ago. Yeah, with all the Psalms
talking about this and bringing you back to that, which is the
anchors your soul, the roots running deep in the stream.
Well, that's not going to happenlast minute.
(27:51):
Like we all need help in the middle of the storm.
Like what do I do? But really running those those
roots deep happens outside of those storms.
I'm not saying it doesn't happenin the midst of the
circumstances, but really it's that that pattern of just
getting deep with the Lord and thinking about it, that is what
establishes us as a tree by the streams of water.
The storms are coming to both. What is it that that anchors the
(28:14):
one person and helps them go through the drought or whatever
it is? It's already having those roots
extended down there. Yeah, yeah.
And one of the things that is always an can be a very
encouraging thing as a pastor iswhen you go to see somebody
who's in a really a deep time and then you ask him like, hey,
where is the gut? Where is God buttressed your
faith? Like where are you at right now
(28:35):
in Scripture? What Scripture has come to mind
that has been impactful to you like right now in this time and
man, it's it's a huge praise when someone just immediately
pulls out Scripture as like thishas been what God's been doing
in my life right now. This I didn't know it at the
time, but this is the Psalm thatnow or this is the verses that
mean something to me and it is terrifying if you have nothing
(28:59):
where you're just like, I got nothing and you're like, oh
Lord, please help. We we need to have those
deposits ready to go for these storms of life.
I think a Psalm 46 God's a refuge in drank the bread very
present help in time of trouble.Well, he's a help because
there's things in your mind already in place about him that
are going to redirect your mind upward and to the cross instead
(29:23):
of just taking your right down to the pit where you are right
now. So, and this is hopefully good.
Remind all of us, have yourself ready to go for times that
you're going to need these things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
I just all the ways that the Lord ministers to you at a heart
level with regard to meditation is such a blessing.
And it's one of the reasons why,man, we want to be encouraging
(29:46):
our folks and those who are listening or watching to give
attention to this particular spiritual discipline.
Or maybe you can just even say spiritual grace.
There's so much benefit. It's such a blessing that we
want to commend it to people as a gift of grace.
I was also thinking how much meditation works with prayer,
leads naturally into prayer and even fuels prayer like it's in a
(30:09):
certain way it does kind of likeset prayer on fire.
It's the Natural Bridge from Godspeaking to us in his word
through his Spirit and then us speaking to God in prayer that
the bridge there often times canjust be this mulling over,
musing over, meditating on God'sword and all of a sudden what's
been spoken, what's been writtenis something that's being spoken
(30:31):
back to the Lord. So like, for example, in Psalm
143, the psalmist says, hear my prayer, O Lord, give ear to my
pleas for mercy. I remember the days of old.
I meditate and all that you've done.
I ponder the work of your hands.I stretch out my hands to you.
There's the prayer, my soul thirst for you like a parched
land. There's the heart.
So that's it's the meditation, it's the prayer, and it's a
(30:54):
recollection of who God has his faithfulness and his
righteousness. So many good things are all
coming into play, swirling around meditation and pondering.
And then, yeah, it's Psalm 145. I will extol you, my God and
King. I'll bless your name forever and
ever on the glorious splendor ofyour majesty and on your
wondrous works. I will meditate.
So. So that's bringing it together,
(31:14):
meditation with worship. And so, yeah, ideally we want
our people to be meditating so that they'll be like inclined in
their heart to say, like, Lord, I want to glorify you in my
life. I want to exole you and bless
you in my not just time in the word and, and time privately
worshipping you, but in all of my life.
(31:36):
You know, And so we need to wrapit up.
But I, I was encouraged. Just another quote by by Hall,
this Puritan pastor 400 years ago.
He said meditation is the remedyfor security and for
worldliness. So security from in suffering
and then worldliness like it's a, it's a, it's a corrective to
(31:58):
our our just, our rebellion, oursin, our depravity.
Meditation is a remedy for both.It's the pastime of Saints, the
latter to heaven. In short, it's the best way to
improve Christianity. That's a strong statement.
It's a ladder to heaven. It's the pastime of the Saints.
(32:18):
I mean, yeah, it was very commonwhere Jonathan Edwards would,
you know, saddle his horse and just ride around for a while out
in the woods, right? Predominantly, not just to pray,
but just to be what he would call be swallowed up into God.
And that was kind of what in hismind was, was what meditation
was about. You're you're just being.
It's just you and the Lord. And then the Lord just kind of
wraps himself around you and that's all you see.
(32:40):
That's all you're thinking about.
That's he's like the only one you're with in the world.
And what a noble goal in in meditation.
And so, yeah, it may be the casethat our people are are in that
sense, like swallowed up into God.
Would that not be sweet? I mean, what all the other
things our people could do. I mean, yes, walk in love, yes,
(33:00):
serve the Lord. Yes.
Witness to the world. Hey, I bet.
But if we could say that there'sjust one thing we really want
them to do, it would be that they're just lost in wonder,
love and praise, right? Because it does start there.
And so we want to get into more about how to do that.
I, I, I think we can either extend this conversation into a
(33:22):
super session. I think there's some wisdom and
just go, no, that's enough. Let's just, we've spent time in
the word, defining it, what it is, what it, what it can look
like in broad senses. But we want to save some time
for getting into and how do I dothis?
We'll save that for next time. So any final thoughts, you guys
or any final comments before we sign off here?
(33:42):
We need to be done. I got one week to work on this
before we talk. No, this has been good.
This is it's super helpful with all these topics.
It's great to to hear them over and over again, just to be
reminded of the the scriptures. We all have room to grow.
So it's it's great. I love hearing this.
(34:03):
Yeah, this opportunity for people listening to be
encouraged to keep pressing on into this like it's worth it,
you know, to to really evaluate your spiritual discipline,
especially coming into the summer.
And for some their kids are homeor there's more downtime,
etcetera in the home. So what a great time to think
through like what am I doing coming up this summer with my
(34:23):
time? That's good.
Well, guys, thank you so much for jumping on this.
I really appreciate your input and your wisdom as always.
And then for everybody else, join us next time on the next
episode. We'll pick this back up again on
afterward. Extended conversations about
topics that matter in life. And this one for sure is another
one that does. Thanks guys so much.
Thanks for having us. Thanks.
Welcome back, guys. Afterward, the podcast about
extended conversations regardingtopics that matter in life and
in ministry. Matt, thanks for joining us
again today. Jeremy, you guys as well?
Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah. And we're wanting to, I think as
we've talked about this episode in particular, carry on our
conversation from last time, which, yeah, I think it's really
(00:28):
kind of fundamental to who we want to be as a church.
We want to be making disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who
who know what it means, who enjoy what it means to worship
God, walk in love, witness the world, yes, but who worship God
fundamentally. And so last time we took some
time, I hope in a way that was helpful for our folks and for
others listening in or watching to think about, well, how do I
(00:50):
worship God or Christ privately in my own time in God's Word,
which can be a challenge for certain people, for some people,
for most people at different points, for all of us.
And I think that was a helpful conversation.
I want to see if we can shift a little bit here today, talk
about spending time with Lord still in that broad category.
(01:11):
But now with regard to private worship of Christ, think about
meditation, meditation and prayer kind of coupled together
that you can try to decouple them, I suppose, but in a lot of
ways they really belong togetherand and obviously belong to what
it means to worship the Lord privately.
With regard to reading the word to so we did separate reading
out the word, reading the word from what we're talking about
(01:33):
today. But let's spend some time now
focused on meditation. And when we talk about
meditation, I think we have a right to be a little bit
concerned to address, well, whatdo we not mean by meditation?
And I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on that right
out of the gate. If we're talking about what
biblical meditation is, that's what we need to be talking about
(01:54):
because there's a lot of talk about meditation in the world
today, and that's not what we'retalking about.
So can you guys just kind of throw out what are we not
talking about with regard to meditation as a part of private
worship of Christ? Yeah, we can.
I think we need to reclaim the word a little bit, partly
because that word has been takenover really by Eastern religion
(02:16):
for the most part and worked into our regular society.
And some of the words we might think of now are that are really
popular, mindfulness, etcetera. So things that are in the world
recognize taking you above a superficial understanding of
what you're thinking on into a deeper understanding that's
going to have effects on you mind, body, spirit.
And so, yeah, that that word hasbeen used a lot.
(02:37):
And really, it needs to be reclaimed by Christianity.
Yeah, we're not talking about mindless repetition.
Not what we're talking about, right?
Not talking about emptying our minds.
That's not biblical meditation. Yeah, that's good.
That's good. I think you had a a meditative
(02:58):
posture you wanted us to see, didn't you?
Yeah. I've been asking you earlier.
Thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, yeah.
Off. Air, we'll practice that
offline. Which fingers am I supposed to?
Can I see that's going to make all the difference?
I appreciate. You bringing that up?
Thank you. You bet.
It's good, of course, to. Start that's good, OK, but
listen front door into now biblical meditation.
We want to be aware that we're not calling our folks or calling
(03:20):
believers to that kind of meditation, a worldly
meditation. But when you think about kind of
a front door into the this, the biblical call to meditate, what
passages or passage comes to mind in your thinking, you guys?
Someone for me? Yeah.
Where are you? Oh, I.
Well, Psalm 1, Psalm 119, I had Jeremiah 15 open to where
(03:42):
Jeremiah talks about your words were found and I ate them and
your words became for me a joy and a delight in my heart.
Just another word picture that I'm sure we're going to get to
of consumption mulling over and then actually changes your
countenance and your mind. So I know, yeah.
That's good. Yeah.
Psalm One. Blessed is the man who walks not
in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of
(04:03):
sinners, nor sits in the seat ofscoffers, but his delight is in
the law of the Lord and on that law.
On his law he meditates day and night, constantly chewing on it.
And then that is what establishes him as a tree,
delighting on it, delighting in it, but then also meditating on
it. So that would be one of the
primary ones for me. It's good.
(04:25):
Yeah, I was thinking about Psalm19 myself at the end.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be
acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.
And in fact, that ties into I mean, this is amazing Psalm
regarding the revelation of the glory of God in or the
declaration of the glory of God in the heavens.
Also, though, with regard to God's Word, specifically his
(04:49):
divine revelation in his word. And then the the synopsis of
that, the words of my mouth after seeing the glory of God,
after, you know, rejoicing in the revelation of God's word,
then the psalmist speaking back to God.
I think I might be speaking about prayer there.
Let the words of my mouth and then the meditation of my heart.
There's a there is a bit of a delineation or distinction
(05:09):
between prayer and meditation. And yet they're coupled.
They did. One just goes hand in hand with
the other and and this prayer oflike man, Lord, let both be
acceptable, pleasing in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my
Redeemer and tied to the gospel in that way.
So yeah, I think would you guys want to go so far?
I mean, it just seems like to meit's it is assumed meditation
(05:34):
happening in our own hearts is assumed as a part of our private
worship. And we can multiply other
passages. And if you guys have others,
please feel free to throw them in to the mix.
But it's almost as if we want tosay as well that it's a, it's a
spiritual discipline or it's a, it's a practice of the Christian
life that we need to cultivate. It's not just enough to open our
(05:56):
Bibles to read God's Word to then pray through the the prayer
requests of the day, check that box, move on and and really
think to ourselves, yeah, we've,we've really worshipped the
Lord. I, I, it's almost like
meditation might be the missing link in some cases in our
people's lives. Maybe not.
(06:17):
But I know for me it can be where I just rush through my
worship of Christ and it can become, you've mentioned the
word box checking and you can, you can check the box, move on.
And you've not really sat, I mean, even Psalm 19, you've not
sat under the glories of God. You've not really sat in the
glories of his word. And so then you walk away and on
(06:40):
end of your day, you know, So this is a really important and
maybe sometimes neglected spiritual discipline.
I, I think so on that point, remember when we're talking
about when we're talking about our DeVos distractions and I
shared, I don't know if you remember, but I shared that one
of the difficult things for me is not so much getting into the
word because I've established a habit for many years on that.
(07:01):
But before I go, pat myself on the back on that which I should
never do. But for me, it's this element of
meditating on it, chewing on it,it, that's more of a struggle
for me. That's something that I would
say that I miss more frequently.I do that far less frequently
than I do actually open up my Bible.
So this is a struggle for me. Or it's something I need to work
(07:23):
on, put it that way. Yeah, it's good.
Yeah, I think the we're going toend up probably talking about
these this balance and meditation of both duty almost
like in some ways you have to make it a box check and delight.
I think about someone A-Team where it says, oh, how I love
your law. It is my meditation all the day.
So his affection is driving thatdesire to spend time like I'm.
(07:45):
So I'm in some ways you have to have it as a discipline.
And then in other ways your heart naturally, I think once
you start doing it, delights andit starts to just do it because
you want to like, oh, I just love spending time with the Lord
and I love meditating on him. And so you do it out of delight.
But I'll say just to get the ball rolling a lot of times you
have to start with discipline aspect of it, like I'm just
(08:07):
doing it just to get things going.
Yeah. Well, wouldn't you say that one
of the major differences between, I don't know what you
want to call it secular meditation or Eastern, you know,
forms of meditation versus biblical meditation is they're,
they're trying to empty your mind.
And we're trying and, and clearly the Scripture is calling
(08:29):
us in biblical meditation to fill our mind with the truth,
right. And and meditation is like
having your mind be filled with the truth so that you can be
able to meditate. Well, and can I take that
further? They want that.
My understanding is the emptyingof the mind gives rise to the
goodness in you. It's the higher level of you,
it's your higher spiritual form,whatever.
(08:51):
So if they understand in their anthropology that the goodness
is inside me, then emptying yourmind is really emptying all
distractions to let what they would say the goodness in you
come out. There's different ways that
different people have phrased that.
But yeah, biblically speaking, our understanding of our
anthropology is I do not have that goodness in me.
We're not talking about the HolySpirit.
They're just talking about in our, the natural man.
(09:12):
So we, the scriptures have something to say.
So we need to let them speak to our minds, speak to our hearts.
Let the, excuse me, let the Lordand let the word speak to us in
that what kind of a way? Because we do not have the
goodness that's going to come out of us.
So there's a radical difference understanding of anthropology
and their anthropology. Yeah, that's good.
(09:33):
Well, in some ways, if you emptyyour mind, that's also the way
to peace because oh man, I've not.
So nothing is then disturbing meor agitating me.
I'm emptying my mind as a sourceof peace, which would put you,
the person as ideally the the center point of peace, right?
So you're emptying your mind to get better understanding of you,
whereas we would say, oh, that'sactually the opposite.
(09:54):
You're filling your mind with Christ with with him being the
source of your peace, and he is your delight.
And so it really is putting man at the center versus God at the
center of how you're viewing this whole meditation.
Yeah. Architecture.
It's really good I. Don't mean to hijack this, but
I'm hearing us talk about this and thinking that, wait,
someone's saying, wait, hold on.There's no place for like just
(10:17):
getting the distractions away. So we're not talking about that
entirely, right? We're not talking about
simplifying your life and just call like calming down, turning
off the radio. We're we're not saying that
that's bad, right? Correct.
Right. OK, that's correct.
In fact, even bound up on and weshould get into what what is
biblical meditation? How does the Scripture itself
(10:39):
define what we're talking about?Because I think once you get
into those definitions, you understand what it is.
And it actually does involve that.
It does involve slowing down to a certain degree.
And we've comment on this before.
It does involve, I think maybe aconsideration of maybe we need
to unplug, you know, and, and just being alone.
(11:00):
Although I would say that there are, I, I've talked to some
couples who really, really do well spiritually by like
meditating together, praying together, you know, as a matter
of regular practice. And so that that could be in
play as well. But for the most part, it does
seem like as you get into meditation, it is you being
alone with God. And so let's get into that.
(11:21):
Let's get into like what biblically is meditation?
If we were to try to explain it,I actually think that one of the
best ways to get into it, and I think we talked about this right
before, is to talk about the terms for it there.
As far as I can tell, there's two main Hebrew terms for
meditate or meditation in the Old Testament.
(11:43):
It's not as much of A focus in the New Testament by way of the
term or terminology, but one term is Hege, right?
And that you could, I could go guttural, I could go guttural if
you want me to, But I, I will refrain for the sake of the
cleanliness of the microphone. But, but just it's, it's to
utter a low sound, it's to mutter, it's to read in an
(12:07):
undertone, to plot quietly, to talk out loud.
That's one Hebrew term. So, So what comes to mind there
is actually like some kind of low, almost like you're not
whispering, but you're kind of, it was sound like you're kind of
talking to someone who is not infront of you visibly, right.
(12:31):
The example that comes to mind, of course, with that is is
Hannah. And so you remember Hannah
praying in first Samuel and and she's accused by Eli of like
you're, you're talking to yourself.
What are you doing? You're a crazy woman.
And so that's because she was praying, she was meditating
effectively under her breath. And then the other term is
siach, and that just means to muse.
(12:54):
So you're musing on something. It can also mean you complain,
you're complaining about something, or again, it can mean
you're talking kind of to yourself.
And so those two terms are the dominant terms.
And I think it's helpful becauseit shows you that meditation,
again, a little different than like and substantively different
(13:15):
than secular meditation or Eastern meditation.
But even just the outworking of it is a little different.
I mean, there's an expectation here that you're kind of
muttering to yourself. You're kind of chirping.
There's almost like a chirping or a a reading to yourself and
an undertone is another nuance, kind of like you're reading your
Bible out loud a little bit to yourself.
(13:36):
You're complaining. The idea is you're arguing with
what you're interacting with or you have questions.
So that that is those are the two major terms is that have you
guys? I mean, would you have something
to add to that by way of like, Oh yeah, that's exactly what
this text is speaking to or how would you guys want to add to
that explanation? Anything coming to mind at all?
(13:59):
The what I'm going back to Psalm1.
And So what comes to mind for me, as you're saying that is
just what are we doing day and night?
If you're delighting, I have a desire for the for the word, for
the law of the Lord here. And then meditating on a day and
night, you're just you're thinking about it, you're
chewing on it, thinking about itfrom different angles.
What is this, what is that? How does that relate to this or
that? And so I don't know that it's
(14:19):
all that profound, except that it's it's something that you're
doing beyond just your worship time in the Lord or with the
Lord in the word. It's just something that you
carry throughout. And so that muttering, that
murmuring in a good way is something that just carries with
you in what what Psalm 1/2 is talking about day and night.
So, yeah, not all that profound on what you're saying though,
(14:41):
but that's what I would say, yeah.
Yeah, I was thinking about Psalm77.
There's a a lament Psalm where David's crying out on his bed
and asking the Lord for help there.
Excuse me, Asaph. And he is struggling and kind of
talking through his challenges with God, so muttering in some
(15:02):
ways. But then he does get down and
reorients his mind after he has questioned and talked with God.
And he says in verse 11, I shallremember the deeds of the Lord.
Surely I will remember your wonders of old.
I will meditate on all your workand muse on your deeds.
And then he gets into God's character from there.
And then God's actions with Exodus.
(15:24):
And so similarly for us, like meditation might not just be
confined to quiet time or to your Bible.
Sometimes it comes back up at times when you need it the most.
You're meditating on your bed with your tears coming down and
his eyelids are like pulled open.
He's reaching out to the Lord. That's the image in Psalm 77.
(15:45):
And then he's meditating and reorienting his mind back
towards God. And so it can come up in a lot
of things. We're going to we're confining a
little bit because we're talkingabout quiet time, but.
And the meditations come back toyou.
It's it's the point. They're very tied into that
memory that he brings in. Yeah, in verse 11, it's really.
Good. It's really good.
I have another comment you mentioned Psalm night or it's
(16:07):
not here on this podcast before.It's Psalm 19 talking about when
he at the end in verse 14, he says let the words of my mouth
and meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight.
He gets there as that on the tail end of what he has already
been thinking through. In other words, he didn't start
with meditation. What should I meditate on?
Let me look at the heavens and think about that.
Instead, he starts with the heavens in 19 one through 6.
(16:30):
Then he goes to the law of the Lord and how the law, all all
these different things. So general revelation, special
revelation, if you will. And then he says, who can
discern his errors? Declare me from hidden faults.
And you have the idea that he's thinking like if the Lord is
everywhere and the Lord is the one that speaks into my life,
what do I, how do I measure up to that?
And that is that then that is what he's calling meditation.
(16:53):
And so in that sense, what he has probably been musing on all
day long is thinking about, are there any hidden areas in my
life that I need to confess to you, Lord?
And so I just think it's different.
It's rather than let's start working on meditation, he's
starting in a totally different direction, so.
(17:15):
Well, that would make sense, right?
If if meditation is about filling your mind and that
becomes the basis for your meditation, then that would make
sense. Exactly what you just explained,
right? If we're talking about emptying
your mind, then you'd want to put that at the beginning and
not even talk about anything else.
And so, yeah, that's a great illustration or example of of
what we've been talking about. Yeah.
(17:35):
I was thinking you guys have another passage and that in
fact, actually, I think a passage that can be helpful for
us to consider. Joshua 18 But even when God's
commissioning Joshua to to beginthe conquest of the promised
land, God says be strong and courageous because you will
cause this people to inherit theland.
I swear to their fathers to giveto them.
(17:55):
Only be strong and very courageous.
Here's how. Being careful to do according to
all the law that Moses my servant commanded you.
And then in verse 8, this book of the law shall not depart from
your mouth, but you shall meditate on a day and night so
that you may be careful to do according to all that is written
in it. And then when you do that,
you'll be prosperous and you'll have good success.
So actually what seems to be thecase here is that meditation is
(18:19):
the gateway for Joshua. We don't want to make this a
formula that's narrative, but for Joshua to succeed in the
mission to which God appointed him.
And so it's not just that he needs to be careful to observe
the the law. He needs to meditate on to and,
and so the link between strengthand courage and then obedience
(18:40):
and meditation and all that goestogether.
And so, and then obviously in a way that is particular to Joshua
general for all of us, there'll be marks of faithfulness, right?
He'll, he'll prosper and have good success.
So I think that's good. I, I was also going to say, man,
you've got Isaac as an example of walking in the field and
meditating in the evening. Job and Job 15 meditated as
(19:05):
well. So you have other examples.
Jacob meditated and so we don't know what that looked like, but
we have an example in these in these faithful men's lives that
this is part of what they did ona in in a way that almost
doesn't even seem like it's worth anything more than just
like of course they did, you know, it's not mentioned with
particular emphasis. And, and sometimes what that can
(19:26):
mean is, yeah, because that's just what they did.
They just meditated on God's Word as a matter of regular
practice and life. So yeah, really helpful to think
through those different examples.
Matt. I'm not.
I didn't want to cut you off if you had something else you
wanted to add there too. Oh, I think as we're talking, a
lot of times we think of meditation almost as this
(19:46):
passive osmotic process. Like I'm holding my Bible up and
it's just kind of coming into mymind.
And hopefully, even with those definitions it's highlighting,
it's a conversation that you're actually speaking to yourself in
many ways as you take in God's Word, you're now informing
yourself and then speaking to yourself.
And Lloyd Jones has that quote about is you can't just listen
(20:08):
yourself. You need to talk to yourself
like you're active in your approach.
Because in many ways meditation is going on all the time.
It's, it's what are you choosingto do with it?
And what are you focusing your, your energy and efforts on and
filling, what are you filling your mind up with?
Because you're, you're living ina state of meditation
essentially all the time. Yep.
Yeah, I think you can just to kind of spin off of that.
(20:31):
I mean, what is worry and anxiety, but meditation, right?
I mean, so like you, you will toil and spin on your vocation
that you're just meditating on your vocation.
You can toil and spin on your family, like where your kids are
going and how they're doing wellor not doing well and how's it
how's my child going to do with this or that or this or that
that That's all meditation hobbies, recreation.
(20:55):
You're dreaming about that you know, both that you want to buy
and so you look up 95 websites on it.
What is that? Well, that's meditation.
I mean, you're you're reflectingon this thing that you want it
can go negative to what is lust.I mean, isn't lust meditating?
You're you're musing on this shell usually of a woman can be
(21:19):
of a man to greed is often times, if you want to think
about it, it's there's a meditative element to greed.
You want something and so you research it and you get jealous
when other people have it. It's, in other words, like,
well, isn't anger partly bitterness?
Bitterness is. Totally rehearsed, meditative.
Yeah. You're just replaying the
(21:39):
videotapes over and over again of the injury.
That's meditation. And so I don't know of much of
anything in life that we do, either sinful or or good, that
doesn't involve meditation. And so we're already really good
at it. It's just that we have to focus
it right and so. Can I add that we're really good
(22:02):
at it with things that we reallydesire?
Yeah. So bitterness would come not
just because it was some hurt that I had, but because it was a
hurt from something I care aboutor someone I care about.
That's what usually makes us bitter.
And so it's interesting when youthink about a boat, a boat,
(22:22):
let's take your boat example. You love the boat, so that's
what you do. So when it comes to our lack of
desire and ability to meditate on the Word of God, all of us,
three included, if we have trouble with it, it usually
speaks to our desire. Our heart is right there with
it. Why is this hard for me?
I don't desire it. So sometimes even starting there
(22:44):
with our meditation, Lord, what's wrong with me?
I understand that You're the treasure above all else.
What's wrong with me that I don't want to meditate on this?
So Yep. Throw that in there.
No, it's really good. Yeah.
I, we talked about a couple of resources, Matt, you and I did.
The one resource that I've always gone back to was written
(23:05):
by a guy named Joseph Hall. And in 16 O Six he wrote a book
on spiritual meditation, I thinkis what it's called.
He said that meditation begins in the understanding and ends in
the affections. It begins in the brain and
descends into the heart. It begins on earth and ascends
into heaven. It just seems like those are all
the right directions, right? So from understanding to
(23:26):
affection, brain to heart, earthto heaven, that's what
meditation is attempting to do. And so really I think if you
want to say it like this, it's taking something that would be
maybe natural. We naturally meditate on all
kinds of things and attempting to have by God's Spirit
something supernatural happen with the engagement with God's
(23:46):
Word and prayer. So well, let me ask you guys
something about the we've been talking about what meditation
is. Is there anything, anything that
you can think about that would be like what is the profit of
meditation? I think we want to save another
(24:06):
episode for how to practice biblical meditation.
But let me just ask you guys to think about that for a second.
And I want to, I want to try to get into it a little bit, crack
the door open myself about what are the benefits of meditation.
We've already been talking aboutit.
But but I love what you said earlier.
I just want to highlight it. I think biblical meditation in a
lot of ways is what does awaken our soul and and our affections,
(24:30):
the affections of our heart and set them afresh on God.
An honest word too for sure, buteven on God on the person of God
himself so just to even read Psalm one again, but his delight
is in the law of the Lord and hedoesn't wither he's fruitful in
everything he does. I mean just so much there.
(24:53):
That's that that speaks about awakening.
It's life giving like meditationgives you life that's not
eternal life, but like it's lifegiving to meditate like that
tree planted by the the water that doesn't wither your delight
for God's word will grow as you meditate.
I think Psalm 63 is another passage that reflects on this.
(25:18):
When I remember you upon my bed and meditate on you in the
watches of the night, I I love that because it's helpful for
people who can't sleep. So when you when you can't
sleep, what do you do? You can meditate, you know, all
through the night and the meditation that really gives you
help in the middle of the night when typically you tend to toil
and spin on bad things is how much God has been a help to you.
(25:41):
So you have been my help and in the shadow of your wings, I will
sing for joy. So you've been my help in the
past and in the shadow of your wings moving forward, I'm going
to sing for joy, the future orientation of it.
And meditation helps bridge the gap between past and and future
in the middle of the night. And So what a joy meditation can
be when you can't sleep. That's a major benefit.
(26:04):
Are you getting to that in your book?
OK. Do you want to say anything to
that? Yeah, no, I mean, we're talking
about just the the battle for your thought life and your mind,
right. So you again, we're, we make it
sound like there's a set time, like I'm going to meditate now
from 9:15 to 9:30 on what I've read.
(26:25):
That's not meditation, that's a very limited look at it, but
meditation, constant deposits being made.
So when you get into these spotsin the middle of the night, 3:00
AM, whatever, and you wake up, what are you going to pull out?
Like what's available then to, to fight the battle?
You not just fall into the spin cycle of either the next day or
(26:45):
the past day and either anxious about the coming one or you're
regretting the past one, something that's yanking you
either direction. So how are you going to steady
your mind into the spaces that God has given you?
And really it boils down to verysimple categories who God is and
what he has done. And if we can land on those two
and our thought life, it really stabilizes our thoughts, keeps
(27:07):
us from spinning and toiling andand giving us an anchor to hold
on to. That's like the majority of the
Psalms, right? You take the storms of life all
over the place, what brings themback, what anchors them down,
and it's who God is and what he's done.
Yeah. So having that deposit ahead of
time, which we talked about, I never told you in this previous
episode when you talked about guarding the good deposit, you
(27:28):
mentioned that so many years agonow.
It's always stuck with me in terms of what you get out of
your devotions, even if you don't quite remember everything
or totally get it. So I didn't.
I've never told you that was impactful in my life many years
ago. Yeah, with all the Psalms
talking about this and bringing you back to that, which is the
anchors your soul, the roots running deep in the stream.
Well, that's not going to happenlast minute.
(27:51):
Like we all need help in the middle of the storm.
Like what do I do? But really running those those
roots deep happens outside of those storms.
I'm not saying it doesn't happenin the midst of the
circumstances, but really it's that that pattern of just
getting deep with the Lord and thinking about it, that is what
establishes us as a tree by the streams of water.
The storms are coming to both. What is it that that anchors the
(28:14):
one person and helps them go through the drought or whatever
it is? It's already having those roots
extended down there. Yeah, yeah.
And one of the things that is always an can be a very
encouraging thing as a pastor iswhen you go to see somebody
who's in a really a deep time and then you ask him like, hey,
where is the gut? Where is God buttressed your
faith? Like where are you at right now
(28:35):
in Scripture? What Scripture has come to mind
that has been impactful to you like right now in this time and
man, it's it's a huge praise when someone just immediately
pulls out Scripture as like thishas been what God's been doing
in my life right now. This I didn't know it at the
time, but this is the Psalm thatnow or this is the verses that
mean something to me and it is terrifying if you have nothing
(28:59):
where you're just like, I got nothing and you're like, oh
Lord, please help. We we need to have those
deposits ready to go for these storms of life.
I think a Psalm 46 God's a refuge in drank the bread very
present help in time of trouble.Well, he's a help because
there's things in your mind already in place about him that
are going to redirect your mind upward and to the cross instead
(29:23):
of just taking your right down to the pit where you are right
now. So, and this is hopefully good.
Remind all of us, have yourself ready to go for times that
you're going to need these things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah.
I just all the ways that the Lord ministers to you at a heart
level with regard to meditation is such a blessing.
And it's one of the reasons why,man, we want to be encouraging
(29:46):
our folks and those who are listening or watching to give
attention to this particular spiritual discipline.
Or maybe you can just even say spiritual grace.
There's so much benefit. It's such a blessing that we
want to commend it to people as a gift of grace.
I was also thinking how much meditation works with prayer,
leads naturally into prayer and even fuels prayer like it's in a
(30:09):
certain way it does kind of likeset prayer on fire.
It's the Natural Bridge from Godspeaking to us in his word
through his Spirit and then us speaking to God in prayer that
the bridge there often times canjust be this mulling over,
musing over, meditating on God'sword and all of a sudden what's
been spoken, what's been writtenis something that's being spoken
(30:31):
back to the Lord. So like, for example, in Psalm
143, the psalmist says, hear my prayer, O Lord, give ear to my
pleas for mercy. I remember the days of old.
I meditate and all that you've done.
I ponder the work of your hands.I stretch out my hands to you.
There's the prayer, my soul thirst for you like a parched
land. There's the heart.
So that's it's the meditation, it's the prayer, and it's a
(30:54):
recollection of who God has his faithfulness and his
righteousness. So many good things are all
coming into play, swirling around meditation and pondering.
And then, yeah, it's Psalm 145. I will extol you, my God and
King. I'll bless your name forever and
ever on the glorious splendor ofyour majesty and on your
wondrous works. I will meditate.
So. So that's bringing it together,
(31:14):
meditation with worship. And so, yeah, ideally we want
our people to be meditating so that they'll be like inclined in
their heart to say, like, Lord, I want to glorify you in my
life. I want to exole you and bless
you in my not just time in the word and, and time privately
worshipping you, but in all of my life.
(31:36):
You know, And so we need to wrapit up.
But I, I was encouraged. Just another quote by by Hall,
this Puritan pastor 400 years ago.
He said meditation is the remedyfor security and for
worldliness. So security from in suffering
and then worldliness like it's a, it's a, it's a corrective to
(31:58):
our our just, our rebellion, oursin, our depravity.
Meditation is a remedy for both.It's the pastime of Saints, the
latter to heaven. In short, it's the best way to
improve Christianity. That's a strong statement.
It's a ladder to heaven. It's the pastime of the Saints.
(32:18):
I mean, yeah, it was very commonwhere Jonathan Edwards would,
you know, saddle his horse and just ride around for a while out
in the woods, right? Predominantly, not just to pray,
but just to be what he would call be swallowed up into God.
And that was kind of what in hismind was, was what meditation
was about. You're you're just being.
It's just you and the Lord. And then the Lord just kind of
wraps himself around you and that's all you see.
(32:40):
That's all you're thinking about.
That's he's like the only one you're with in the world.
And what a noble goal in in meditation.
And so, yeah, it may be the casethat our people are are in that
sense, like swallowed up into God.
Would that not be sweet? I mean, what all the other
things our people could do. I mean, yes, walk in love, yes,
(33:00):
serve the Lord. Yes.
Witness to the world. Hey, I bet.
But if we could say that there'sjust one thing we really want
them to do, it would be that they're just lost in wonder,
love and praise, right? Because it does start there.
And so we want to get into more about how to do that.
I, I, I think we can either extend this conversation into a
(33:22):
super session. I think there's some wisdom and
just go, no, that's enough. Let's just, we've spent time in
the word, defining it, what it is, what it, what it can look
like in broad senses. But we want to save some time
for getting into and how do I dothis?
We'll save that for next time. So any final thoughts, you guys
or any final comments before we sign off here?
(33:42):
We need to be done. I got one week to work on this
before we talk. No, this has been good.
This is it's super helpful with all these topics.
It's great to to hear them over and over again, just to be
reminded of the the scriptures. We all have room to grow.
So it's it's great. I love hearing this.
(34:03):
Yeah, this opportunity for people listening to be
encouraged to keep pressing on into this like it's worth it,
you know, to to really evaluate your spiritual discipline,
especially coming into the summer.
And for some their kids are homeor there's more downtime,
etcetera in the home. So what a great time to think
through like what am I doing coming up this summer with my
(34:23):
time? That's good.
Well, guys, thank you so much for jumping on this.
I really appreciate your input and your wisdom as always.
And then for everybody else, join us next time on the next
episode. We'll pick this back up again on
afterward. Extended conversations about
topics that matter in life. And this one for sure is another
one that does. Thanks guys so much.
Thanks for having us. Thanks.
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