May 9, 2025 • 34 mins
Join host Kent Dresdow and executive pastors Matt and Jeremy on afterWord as they begin a conversation about the profound importance of the local church. Kicking off the discussion, they explore the biblical understanding of the church as ekklesia, the "called-out ones," emphasizing the significance of the gathered assembly of believers.
The pastors address common questions, including a clarification of Matthew 18:20, explaining its context within church discipline rather than as a justification for isolated faith. They also discuss the valuable role of parachurch ministries, distinguishing their supportive function from the central, irreplaceable nature of the local church.
A key focus of the episode is the rich biblical imagery that reveals the value God places on the church. They touch upon the church as the bride of Christ, the body of Christ (highlighting the need for all its diverse members), and the household of God, emphasizing the unique spiritual family bond shared by believers.
This episode serves as the first part of an ongoing exploration into the local church, with further discussion planned for a future episode of afterWord.
Keywords
local church, ecclesiology, church importance, parachurch ministries, body of Christ, bride of Christ, household of God, church community, church membership, church purpose
Chapters
02:56 - Understanding the Local Church06:08 - The Importance of the Local Church09:14 - Parachurch Ministries vs. Local Church12:05 - The Body of Christ and Its Functionality18:03 - The Church as the Bride of Christ20:46 - The Church as the Household of God33:05 - Conclusion and Future Discussions
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome back to Afterward, a podcast about extended
discussions regarding topics that matter, joined again by
Matt Rare, Executive Pastor hereat Northridge and Jeremy Pray,
Executive Pastor as well. So guys, thanks for joining us
and today we want to turn our attention even though we are
sick and infirm today. Matt, you're going to, you're
going to definitely be known to be sick as soon as you start
(00:28):
talking. Everybody can tell I'm sick just
by the fact I'm already talking.Jeremy, are you done being sick?
I'm done. I think I gave it to you guys,
so thanks. We're really shameful.
What a guy. Thank you.
Thank you, Jeremy. We feel the love.
So we're going to tough through today with regard to this time.
Not an interview, but a topic. And by the way, I, I think it'd
(00:50):
be good for everybody to know kind of how we're thinking about
this podcast generally in terms of what's our approach.
Obviously we've talked about this being a podcast first and
foremost for our own church, butyou know, not ignoring that it
might go beyond and that's fine if that's what the Lord has, but
there are some different categories we want to try to hit
as well. So you guys want to comment on
(01:11):
why those categories are there and I can do some cleanup if we
forget those. Yeah, we, well, finally we're
off ourselves. So I'm glad about that.
But we are gonna do more interviews because we have
different people coming through and we think that would benefit
the church just to get hear morefrom them.
So that's one format we're gonnawe're gonna tap.
Yeah, another one too. And I think we mentioned this in
(01:31):
the first episode that sometimesyou'll have, you'll say
something in a, in a sermon or, or want to get to something in a
sermon and you just don't have time to get there.
And then we have the ability to follow up with you.
Or sometimes you'll do somethingwith the staff where you talk
about, hey, I wasn't able to getto this on Sunday, but this is
so cool. Check this out.
Right. Well, this would be a great
platform to discuss that further.
So yes, interviews with different speakers that might
(01:53):
come through or authors or whatever, but then also sermons,
Yep, to be able to follow up on and.
Yep. And that's kind of the reason
even for the name of the podcastright afterward, trying to bring
more of the word to bear as far as we can in that kind of a
format that the the extended sermon commentary and
explanation and application moreon that kind of stuff.
(02:14):
Yeah. And then we're also doing
questions and answers. We want to take some questions
from the the countless hordes ofpeople that are listening to
this. I think we lost track at 12.
I'm. Kidding, yeah, like questions,
answers. And then also just helping think
through practical issues, right?Yeah, theological issues and
(02:35):
that are around the church, so. Yeah, correct.
Yeah. And in that regard, I mean with
those kinds of kind of formats or topics in play, we do want to
tackle not an interview format, but we want to tackle a a
theological format today or maybe is it practical or
theological? What would you call this one?
And both which is theology. Both theology is practical.
(02:55):
In many ways, Yep, Yep. Orthodoxy, orthoproxy.
So today we're talking about thelocal church, and we'll see if
this actually spills over into another episode there.
There's a lot here, but I think what we have to start is what is
a local church? What is the church?
And there's a lot of different ways that people look at the
church. And so we just thought it'd be
(03:16):
helpful for us to be able to take some time here in a way
that we can't maybe on a Sunday morning or maybe even in like in
a life stage or a small group CGsetting and just talk about the
local church here. So the first question that we
came up with was why should anyone care?
Why should I care about the local church?
(03:38):
And I don't know if that's like the best question to start with,
but it's a question to start with.
And I, I think I'll just kick itoff, but you guys can chip in.
I think we, we have to set a, a biblical context for what the
church is. And so the word in the Greek is
the word ecclesia and into the Old Testament, in the Greek Old
(03:59):
Testament, the Septuagint, that word ecclesia can sometimes even
refer to just an assembly, like an an assembly of the people of
God. And so it doesn't equate the
two. Israel's not the church in the
New Testament, the the church isthe assembly of the redeemed,
the gathering of the redeemed. And so it's a gathering.
And that's something that I think is going to be helpful for
(04:20):
our discussion and giving some clarity about what the nature of
the local church is and why we love it so much.
It's not just the people of God.It's the people of God who have
been called out of the world, right?
Eck Clesia called out ones out of the world and gathered
together as Saints to to, well, fulfill all the different
various functions of the local church.
(04:43):
So that's kind of a functioning definition, I think the called
out ones, the gathered Saints. But why else should we care
about the local church beyond just the definition?
That kind of gives us a nod in that direction that it's a
gathering. Why else should we be caring
about the local church? Yeah, I think, I mean, you're
(05:04):
starting to touch on some of theimportance, but there's
something that takes it beyond just a gathering because we can
gather for a lot of things. We got it for sports events and
the Warriors won last night. That was great.
Huge win. Although by the time you hear
this, it won't be last night. Yes.
True, that's true. But we're just, there's
something going beyond just gathering.
(05:24):
And I think you're getting at just the purpose of it, but also
there's something special. The Spirit being present in the
gathered Saints on a Sunday is is a special thing, but then
beyond that, there's a lot of purpose to that as well and what
gets carried out then amongst the body.
Yeah. Well, let me ask you guys a
question that's that kind of edges into this a little bit
more. Some people will talk about the
(05:46):
local church or the church as something that they don't need
to be a part of because after all, I've heard this said at
various different times, wherever two or three are
gathered in my name, there I am in their midst.
And so, hey, man, if it's just about me and Jesus, or if it's
just about the Spirit and and you know me, then yeah, Jesus
(06:06):
said it himself, or two or threegathered, gathered, then there
you go. And so me and my family, we are
our own church. So what what do you guys have to
think about? I mean, that is a classic
passage on that. So can you tell us about where
it's at context, what that meansin context?
And then yeah, what we want to kind of round that that
(06:29):
discussion about with a little more explanation.
Yeah, the you hear it a lot, butthat's just not what that
passage is talking about. I it's so Matthew 18 is where
it's coming from. I have it here.
And Matthew 1820, so comes on the back end of a discussion on
church discipline, restoring a brother and a difficult passage.
(06:52):
But if you if you read the the verses prior to it and then get
to that part of two or three or gather my name, it has nothing
to do with how people use that verse has nothing to do with
just with the casual gathering or meeting over coffee.
And I don't need the church because two or three gathered.
It has everything to do with what the church is wrestling
through with regarding church discipline.
(07:13):
So difficult topic, but it's just ripped out of context so so
frequently. So yeah, that's good.
Yeah, I hear people not just usethat excuse, but one of the
thing we're going to tackle is are there substitutes for
church, like a para church ministry?
So I'm gathered with people doing good things and we have a
(07:34):
focus and a purpose. And if you almost called to that
para church ministry, how would you respond to those people as
far as just trying to wait the replacement of the church with
their para church involvement? Yeah.
Well, I, I think the one thing we'd all want to say here is
that haven't we all been blessedby parachurch ministry, each one
of us, right? Absolutely.
(07:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.And I've been on the board of 1
and, and helped start a couple. We've started a couple.
So, yeah, I, I think we want to be very aware of the, the
blessing and the benefit that parachurches can provide.
I let me just say this, I'm starting with another
definition. So I guess I'm that guy.
I was going. To ask you to know, I'm not
everyone. Is para church?
No, Yeah, yeah, we're throwing that.
(08:16):
Out para just means to come alongside, right?
So at it, at their very best, those organizations are coming
alongside of a, of a local church and helping to provide
support and strength in an area where maybe a local church
doesn't have time to give that degree of focus to that kind of
ministry. Like for example, a para church
ministry on a college campus. Man, what a blessing to be able
(08:38):
to have a para church ministry focus on this kind of ministry
on a college campus or even a Christian college is a para
church ministry, right? In many cases.
And so they, they, they help augment the, the ministry of the
church without taking over the church, right, and without
becoming a, a trying to become asubstitute for the church.
(08:59):
And so I think at their very best, a para church, even just
by that kind of etymology is coming alongside para the local
church. So I just want to make sure that
we would not just blast pair of churches.
I will also say that there are some pair of churches that do
try to be a substitute for the local church and they denigrate
(09:21):
and kind of diminish the the work of a local church because
they'll say things like, you know, the church doesn't do
this. The church isn't good at this.
The church is missing it on this.
And so we're stepping in and theidea is stepping in and kind of
taking over. And and that would be a pair of
church operating, not optimally,right?
Not biblically, but, yeah. To your question about what a
(09:46):
pair of churches supposed to do,I think that's kind of getting
at that. And I don't know, I mean, if you
guys think about the whole church, I mean, we need to think
a little bit about the the visible church and the invisible
church, right? You'll hear those characters,
those those distinctions drawn. And we should probably just make
a comment on that. If we're thinking about this in
the context of our own people and why should they should care
(10:08):
about the church, we should alsojust kind of throw that on the
table, the difference between the invisible and the invisible
church. Yeah.
Can I ask you about that becauseyou've used a phrase with me
before, if you were cut, do you bleed the whole church or do you
bleed one particular ministry? And we've had an extensive
conversation about that. And it's not that one's good and
one's bad entirely, but maybe itwas helpful for me to hear that
(10:32):
and think through that when we talked about it.
Can you can you answer that question or at least explain
what you're talking about that? Yeah, yeah.
I mean, well it goes a little bit to the connection with the
para church. I mean, we've, we've served in
those and so they're like specializations, right?
And so we love that. We love that ministry
specialization and even, well, we're here serving on staff.
(10:53):
We serve in different ways and we have different
specializations, you could say areas where there's just
ministries we love and there's some ministries that you're not
as involved with for whatever reason.
Actually, I was thinking the other day, man, I haven't
thought about that ministry in along time.
And I used to over help oversee that ministry.
I used to help run that thing. And so, you know, you just move
(11:14):
in and out of different seasons of ministry.
But I think, yeah, I've, I've mentioned before, but if you at
the end of the day were to were to cut me, I just would bleed
the church. And I not like bleed one
ministry or a different ministrybecause Christ didn't die for a
ministry, right? And he didn't come to earth to
purchase the pardon of people who serve in a specific
(11:36):
ministry. So yeah, he died for the church.
And I think that's how we shouldsee any ministry we serve in.
We should see it in the context of I'm serving in this ministry
because I love the church, not because I love just this
ministry. Yeah, that's what I was going to
get at. So you take someone who's great
with kids, maybe young kids, that's all they want to do.
(11:56):
And, and and that's if you, maybe they would answer the
question, if you cut me, I bleedchildren's ministries.
I, I bleed whatever, God bless them, the nursery or whatever.
I'm trying to something that like is not me.
So OK, so then what would you say to those people that like I
live for that, that is what energizes me.
So how is it? What's the balance for them?
(12:19):
Like, OK, that's where they're gifted.
Should they like not not not pursue that, right.
So are you saying that when you cut you, you bleed the whole
church? What about the people that are
not in that pastoral oversight realm?
Is it OK for them to be excited about 1?
Is it bad if it's to the neglectof the other or like you
answered that a little bit but. Yeah, I think, I mean, doesn't
(12:40):
First Corinthians 12 get to thata little bit?
I mean, we, we all have different parts of the body, but
we can't, we can't denigrate other parts that we're not like,
right. And we can't say we won't need
them. So I think there are so many
people I'm rifling through my mind right now and you, we would
be able to give so many names ofour folks who are so good in
certain areas of ministry. They specialize there for
(13:02):
perhaps because of experience just generally in life or even
interest in life. And specifically, I mean,
obviously gifting too, spiritualgifting.
But for whatever reason, they'veserved for, you know, 155 years
in college ministry or whatever.And so those people at their
best, they, they would recognizeand I think a lot of our people
are here. I have served for 35 years in
(13:24):
children's ministries because I love this church.
Like, I don't you think that a lot of our people would say
that. Now, they might not say it just
like that, but what they would not say, and maybe there's a few
people they would not probably say, I have served for 35 years
in children's ministries. And if you take this away from
me, I'm out of here. I don't, I can't think of I,
(13:46):
I've heard that from a couple people historically.
Like if you take this ministry away, then then I'm leaving.
I mean, it's a huge window undertheir heart, right?
And a theological statement too.But man, I can't think of many
of our folks at all that are like that.
I think they would naturally sayI serve in women's ministries
(14:06):
because I love this church. Or if you could kind of coax out
of them, that's what they would want to say.
Not just I love this church because of children's
ministries, but there are some, I mean, there are some who.
So what do you what do you guys think?
Can I ask you, when you guys hear people say we came to this
(14:26):
church and I, we don't mean to convict anybody or make anybody
feel bad. But for the person who might say
like, we're here at this church because of children's
ministries, what, or we're here for this church because of the
youth programs. What do you do with that?
Like how do you walk me through what your response would be on
(14:47):
that? To help shepherd them, guide
them? Because they probably don't mean
that maliciously. Yeah.
And I think it's a good place tostart that that we're already
going down a good path there. They want something good.
They see a value for their kids.So at least we'd want to affirm
that It does make you a little me a little nervous that people
are here for that purpose. And then they what does, what
(15:08):
does the adult do? Well, I have to go sit through
the sermon. Right.
Yes. No offense.
I know more offense, OK, It's OK.
So there is. I've heard worse.
I like. Sometimes the Lord will use that
though, like they they come withwith reasons that are less than
ideal, but the Lord uses that toopen their eyes.
So certainly we wouldn't want todenigrate that.
(15:30):
But at the same time, I think it's just something that you
would want to talk through and help them expose them to it.
So you can either come with a hammer.
That's a terrible reason to cometo church.
What's wrong with you? Or the element of like, I'm glad
you're here. This is so sweet.
Your kids are going to grow here.
That's great. Let's talk about church like
we're doing right now. What like, what is it for?
How are you doing? So my approach and maybe
(15:52):
something else comes to your mind, but my approach to it is
to like shepherd the people through to the reason why they
should be here. Sometimes that happens naturally
without anyone saying anything, just being under the word,
singing, being with other believers.
But sometimes when they're just like show up and then leave,
like meaning like show up to thethe service and leave.
(16:15):
Now we're going back to the ecclesia.
OK, they showed up to the gathering, but they're not part
of the called out once. They're not part of the group.
And so, oh man, there's so many things that I would want to say,
but basically it's just there's,there's a lot of work to be done
there. I wouldn't want to just come out
as a hammer, but I want to say like, let's come alongside you.
(16:36):
Let's talk about the different things in which the Lord could
be doing in your life within this church.
So that's good. I think you, I mean, man, I've
asked so many people because we've been doing membership for
a while now and CGS and all thisstuff.
Hey, why? Why did you come to the church?
So it could be the kids programsis what initially drew you here.
Just some practical reason or a really common one.
(16:59):
Your Google reviews, you know? OK, yeah.
So apparently we're doing well on Google.
Someone's. Going to leave a nasty gram now
though so we. Just kind.
Of. I just crushed Google right
there with one stars. But so you might be drawn here,
but I don't think you stay here for that reason.
That makes sense. Like, so I think people, there's
a good opportunity to start to, to understand the practice of
(17:22):
the church, even to become a member here, you have to walk
through the membership class andyou start to hear the language
of what, of what this church is all about.
And I think it becomes part harder and harder to say, Hey,
I'm just here for the kids programs.
It's like, no, I'm here because this is place of where God's
doing work And just the languagewe were mentioning earlier, like
the the imagery behind the church that God gives us to just
(17:43):
help us understand the value of church.
His bride talking about his body, the family or household of
God. Like those images that I know
you've talked about really startto help make the church, you
start to understand the church better when you start getting
the imagery into your mind. Yeah, That means I don't know if
you have any more thoughts on that.
No, it's good. I actually think that it would
(18:04):
be good to just remind ourselvesof the richness of the local
church with the images that thatthe Scriptures provide.
I mean, as you think about that,lets us say the bride of Christ,
for example, being a picture of the church, how sweet that image
is taken from Ephesians 5, for example, what what do we know
(18:26):
about how dear the church is to Christ?
He loved the church so much thathe died to save her, right?
Like how can you just have a casual commitment when the
Savior gave everything for her? And so it does kind of call you
into a, a, a greater affection for and commitment to the little
(18:49):
church when you realize like what, what great love the Father
has demonstrated toward us in sending his own son to die for
us. And so while we were still
sinners, right? That's one image.
I don't know if you have anything more you want to say
about the bride. No, it's just, I just wanted to
turn there. I was just turning to Ephesians
5, thinking about how we almost always go to that particular
(19:11):
passage on the practical nature of it and thinking about
husbands and wives and, and as we should.
That's the purpose of the the passage there.
But it is on the back of the position that we have in Christ,
if you understand the book as a whole.
And so I was actually just struck by what you're talking
about, thinking about the Paul doesn't just leverage the bride
(19:33):
of Christ, that language just solely to talk about marriage as
if the bride is a means to talk about something greater.
But rather he's saying these areone of the implications of the
bride. And it's just interesting.
Actually, when I first heard this, it was it was kind of
devastating to me about no marriage in heaven.
(19:54):
And I'm. Like, Hey, I like my marriage.
I want to be married in heaven. And so I'm like, OK, what's
wrong with me? Now?
All of a sudden I'm thinking that heaven's going to be worse
because there's no marriage there.
But then, but going back to the,the bride and, and what we
understand here is just meant to, to launch us forward to what
we have with the Lord there. So I just think about that.
(20:15):
Let me say another way. Paul's I said that Paul's not
using. The bride of Christ to then talk
about what's ultimate, which is our relationships with between
husband and wife. In that particular passage in
Ephesians 5, he's talking about it actually the other way.
This is how you're supposed to act.
And I'm telling you, this is themystery.
This is between US and the church.
And so it's like everything is pointing back into that
(20:38):
direction. The value of the bride, the
value of the church, the value of Christ specifically.
Yeah, so. Yeah, Amen to that.
Well, you can fold in all of thebridegroom language in the
Gospels. You can run back to the Old
Testament with all of the different breaches of the the
covenant back then with Israel being seen as covenant treachery
(21:00):
or adultery, spiritual adultery.But that runs all the way back.
I mean, you follow Christ's logic.
It goes all the way back to the garden.
And Adam and Eve being established in that first
marriage was for the purpose of highlighting this this eternal
marriage, right or everlasting marriage with Christ in the
church. And I do love that it's in 525.
(21:22):
You know how many weddings have you done from Ephesians 5 and
many, many times I've just thought, oh Lord, there's enough
here just in 525 through 27. We don't even have to talk about
the the husband and the wife, the bride and the groom.
Let's just talk about the Lord. It's so sweet here dying, giving
himself so that he might sanctify her and doing that
(21:43):
through the washing of the waterwith the word, which gives you
like the primary way that Jesus is sanctifying his people.
The church is through the word, his word, so that he might
present her to himself someday in splendor, radiant without
spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but should be holy
without blemish. So I just look at all that and
(22:04):
I'm like, man, that's there's somuch ecclesiology right there.
Like boom, that one image is almost enough to drive the rest
of our time, but we need to leave that off because I do want
to discuss some other images andmaybe we just sit here for a
while, you guys, I mean, with the image that you mentioned of
the body of Christ. Another reason to care for, to
(22:25):
love the local church is not just because the church is
Christ's bride, but also becausethe church is Christ's body,
which shifts us over into First Corinthians.
I mean, everywhere, right? I mean even in Ephesians, but
but maybe most notably in First Corinthians chapter 12, so.
OK, you got to keep talking. What do you mean, another
(22:46):
definition? No.
I thought everyone's going to know it like it's his body.
Great. Yeah.
Wait, hold on. Yeah.
Well, I just think about can we just talk for a minute about
confusions, talks about the, thechurch's Christ body, he himself
is, is its head. So I mean, the body image is
meant to be seen as like we draweverything from our head, right?
(23:10):
I mean in physical body languageand, and that's the same with
the church and, and, and our Savior.
So I think about that from Ephesians chapter 1, but then
also first Corinthians chapter 12 with all the language of the
body more horizontally, right? Not just vertically with our
head being Christ, but horizontally with each other so.
(23:32):
I think some of this too, I meanhonestly as as a physician when
we start talking about the body and just start.
Well, you should have a lot to say about this here.
But one thing as we keep talkingabout value and of the bride and
the purchase price, and we talk about membership, it also gives
a value to the other members, right?
And so, as the Bible says, if there is a member who's hurting,
(23:57):
like for example, if you stub your toe, your entire focus goes
to your toe. Correct.
And you're like, how can we get the toe better because the
entire body is affected by something as simple as a big toe
getting stubbed. And so it it gives a sense of
and even First Corinthians 12 that it's surrounding the use of
gifts. How can we serve one another
with the gifts that God has given gives us a sense of
(24:20):
there's value to the purchase price.
And that means there's value horizontally that I now care
about you because you have value.
And then you're uniquely gifted.And everybody's a toe, thank
goodness. And everybody's an eyeball or a
heart. And so it creates a sense of, of
value amongst us that there's sweet ways that people are
(24:41):
serving, not just in teaching, you know, but there's so many
ways. We've highlighted some of those
today of just ways you can serveeach other in the church.
I think we, I think that's exactly right, Matt.
In fact, explicitly Paul says the I cannot say to the hand,
First Corinthians 12/21 I have no need of you, nor again the
head to the foot. I have no need of you.
(25:02):
On the contrary. So Paul's being emphatic here at
the parts of the body that seem to be weaker, weaker are
indispensable. So I mean, like, woe to us if
we, you know, make much of thosewho might do more glorious
things, more honorable things. Paul says is the language he
uses and then treat with contempt those who seem to have
(25:24):
less honorable uses in the body.Man, we cannot think like that.
We are one body, right? I mean, that's he's so emphatic
about that. And he says even at the at the
end that paragraph, if one member suffers, everyone
suffers. If one member is honored,
everybody rejoices. So we are truly like I just to
(25:46):
drag the old COVID phrase out and beat it one more time.
We truly are all in it together.This comes up a lot for me.
I don't know about you guys whenwe do new member interviews,
because people will come in wanting to join the church.
And by the time they get to thatspot they're talking about, I'll
ask him like, Hey, what'd you, what'd you think about the, the
meetings that we had the, the four sessions and you're
(26:07):
learning about the church. And they'll say, you, you guys
do a good job with this. I like how you do this.
And then when we get to the end,when everything's good and
they're going to become a member, I say, OK, one thing
though, here's what you need to do.
You need to change your language.
Quit saying you and say we. And so that element of being
part of the body changes it to where?
(26:27):
And I'll almost always give the illustration of like, if someone
comes and says our church is notloving N Greek's not loving, you
need to wear that. I need to wear that.
We are not loving. Now, whether or not it's true is
another issue. But just whatever the accusation
might be that we all like it says here, suffer or honored
together. And so I personally try to help
(26:48):
people understand, like you havegifts that I don't have.
You're a part of the body. We need you.
You're not just joining like an appendages, but like you are
part of the church. We need you, You're gifted.
Where can you serve? And that's not just me telling
you we have a deficiency. Deficiency.
That's the Lord's image of the body.
You have something to give. What is it?
(27:10):
Yeah, yeah. Even the appendix has a role, so
you say hey the appendix is nothing, just pop it out.
But it turns out it's got an immune function to it, so you.
Did say there was one body part that didn't have a function?
You yelled that out in class. Should we leave that off?
Yeah, we'll leave that off, Yeah.
What do you call that? Is there a name for that?
Well, the useless organ. Well, like an appendage.
(27:31):
An appendage. OK.
All right. Appendix would be considered
useless. Interesting.
Yeah, we can't say. It all.
I'm trying to help you, yeah. Jeremy is.
Really trying to. Yeah, holding off his wife.
To come to life stage. Here that one.
OK, OK. Yeah, yeah, he blurted one out
in the middle of class, and yeah, his wife gave him a little
glare. Like that's not.
Yeah, we'll hold off. OK, all right, all right,
(27:53):
Someone can go figure that out on their own.
Can I shift to what what I thinkis really helpful here guys, is
that we're, we're taking time out of the scriptures to, to
just see how the word value is the right word 'cause I how
valuable the church is to the Lord and how valuable it should
be to us. The reason why I think value is
a good word is because when we think about the bride image,
(28:17):
then I think we're, we're talking about beauty, right?
That he might present her to himself radiant.
Like that's a statement about beauty when we're talking about
the body. First Corinthians 12 we're
talking about, I mean, to a certain degree we're talking
about authority, right? The church is under the
authority of its head. That's more Ephesians language.
But First Corinthians 12, it's functional.
(28:41):
There's a really sweet, like functional use of the body, but
there's another dominant image too.
And it communicates a different kind of shade of value with the
church being the household of God.
And, and I, I love this image and it should be another reason
(29:02):
why people should love their local church.
So can you guys just crack open like when you when I say the the
the household of God, where doesyour mind go in the scripture?
Why is that sweet and should make us value the church even
more? First Timothy, Yeah.
You beat me in there. 15 would be where I'd go.
(29:22):
OK, yeah. I mean, really First Timothy,
that is kind of the crux of whatPaul's writing household rules
under the church. It's Timothy to say, hey, this
is how you establish a church. And these are the reasons it's
important that thesis statementsin 315 where he says I will, I'm
writing to you so you know how one ought to conduct himself in
the household of God. And then This is why I think
(29:43):
what you're getting at, which isthe Church of the living God,
the pillar and support of the truth.
So it really, no, it's a household.
But then he gives you so much flavor there with those extra
phrases. Yeah, to say why it's so
important. But it is.
It's a, it's a family. Yeah.
It's a family, Yeah. It's a family, yeah, with a,
with a purpose. Yeah.
Yeah, and there's so many people.
(30:04):
I mean, once you get out of college, people are looking for
their people. So there, there is an element, I
think that you can look at the church as a family in the sense
of it's not biblical, but just like my people, like I just hang
out with them. It's it's comfortable.
Yeah. That's not what we're talking
about here, right. The the family here.
How would you, how would you describe the difference between
someone who comes to church because they have a place?
(30:25):
Like, I don't go to the bar and I don't have a hobby.
That's like a big group of people, but the church is a
group of people. So if someone were to say, well,
that's my family, How would you distinguish biblically then
based on this or as you're thinking about it, the
difference in someone who's looking at the church as a
family like that versus the biblical definition of a family?
Yeah. Why?
(30:47):
So immediately I'm thinking a little bit more theologically
admittedly than just out of a passage, but the the radical
difference is that the head of the household is, is God.
I mean, God is our Father and there's no other family dynamic
like it. And and the sweetest family,
(31:08):
earthly family or sweetest groupthat you want to say is family
cannot compare to the household of God.
Our God is our Father. And so we're all brothers and
sisters for eternity. I mean, the, the, the greatness
of this particular family stems from the greatness of the one
(31:30):
with whom we have to do right. So the bar, there's no head of
the household. I mean, you can say that the
owner is, but you're paying customer you, you like, we're
all family. As you know, the Warriors fan
base, we're all family. Well, no, you actually pay for
that game and they don't care a thing about you.
As soon as you stop rooting for them, they're just looking for
(31:51):
other fans. And so all that family language
breaks down and all those different groupings.
It doesn't break down with an earthly family, right?
I mean, way it's understood biblically.
I That's true, but there's nothing that even comes close to
comparing to the household of God.
And I think it's amazing how it transcends our relationships
here in the sense of with my wife as a believer, I'm more her
(32:14):
brother in Christ than I am her husband for all eternity.
I will forever be her brother inChrist.
Yep, and and so the family language, what we see here
extends this is how we relate toone another and how we will
relate to one another forever. That's crazy to think about.
That's way beyond, hey, I'm thisage and I'm looking for a group
(32:36):
of people to hang out with that this is like this way bigger.
Oh yeah, yeah. Well and then God the Father
gives up his Son, his only begotten Son.
So the family image just keeps going on and on and on and then
what is the only begotten son accomplish in his death on the
cross he accomplishes the ability for us to be have our
(32:56):
adoption that God predestined usbecause he loved us.
Ephesians chapter one for adoption of sons.
He chose us before we even existed.
And then the sun comes the only begotten and dies to secure the
adoption of a whole host of brethren.
The Hebrew says, right? And so all of these sons and
daughters that that are purchased by the son's death on
(33:22):
the cross. So you think about that.
The family dynamics just keep exploding into something more
and more and more radically unique.
There's no family like God's family, and nothing even comes
close. As I'm getting the sense that
we're going to be able to talk about this topic a little bit
more. Yeah, that's true.
So should we keep it going? Maybe we can.
(33:44):
Yeah. Second episode.
Let's do it. Continue on about the church.
Yeah, that's really good. Passion for all of us, yeah.
OK, let's get let's close it down here.
And thank you guys for listeningto this episode of Afterward.
Extended conversations about topics that matter.
Join us next time. We will have a Part 2 on this
for sure. Thanks guys.
Appreciate it.
Welcome back to Afterward, a podcast about extended
discussions regarding topics that matter, joined again by
Matt Rare, Executive Pastor hereat Northridge and Jeremy Pray,
Executive Pastor as well. So guys, thanks for joining us
and today we want to turn our attention even though we are
sick and infirm today. Matt, you're going to, you're
going to definitely be known to be sick as soon as you start
(00:28):
talking. Everybody can tell I'm sick just
by the fact I'm already talking.Jeremy, are you done being sick?
I'm done. I think I gave it to you guys,
so thanks. We're really shameful.
What a guy. Thank you.
Thank you, Jeremy. We feel the love.
So we're going to tough through today with regard to this time.
Not an interview, but a topic. And by the way, I, I think it'd
(00:50):
be good for everybody to know kind of how we're thinking about
this podcast generally in terms of what's our approach.
Obviously we've talked about this being a podcast first and
foremost for our own church, butyou know, not ignoring that it
might go beyond and that's fine if that's what the Lord has, but
there are some different categories we want to try to hit
as well. So you guys want to comment on
(01:11):
why those categories are there and I can do some cleanup if we
forget those. Yeah, we, well, finally we're
off ourselves. So I'm glad about that.
But we are gonna do more interviews because we have
different people coming through and we think that would benefit
the church just to get hear morefrom them.
So that's one format we're gonnawe're gonna tap.
Yeah, another one too. And I think we mentioned this in
(01:31):
the first episode that sometimesyou'll have, you'll say
something in a, in a sermon or, or want to get to something in a
sermon and you just don't have time to get there.
And then we have the ability to follow up with you.
Or sometimes you'll do somethingwith the staff where you talk
about, hey, I wasn't able to getto this on Sunday, but this is
so cool. Check this out.
Right. Well, this would be a great
platform to discuss that further.
So yes, interviews with different speakers that might
(01:53):
come through or authors or whatever, but then also sermons,
Yep, to be able to follow up on and.
Yep. And that's kind of the reason
even for the name of the podcastright afterward, trying to bring
more of the word to bear as far as we can in that kind of a
format that the the extended sermon commentary and
explanation and application moreon that kind of stuff.
(02:14):
Yeah. And then we're also doing
questions and answers. We want to take some questions
from the the countless hordes ofpeople that are listening to
this. I think we lost track at 12.
I'm. Kidding, yeah, like questions,
answers. And then also just helping think
through practical issues, right?Yeah, theological issues and
(02:35):
that are around the church, so. Yeah, correct.
Yeah. And in that regard, I mean with
those kinds of kind of formats or topics in play, we do want to
tackle not an interview format, but we want to tackle a a
theological format today or maybe is it practical or
theological? What would you call this one?
And both which is theology. Both theology is practical.
(02:55):
In many ways, Yep, Yep. Orthodoxy, orthoproxy.
So today we're talking about thelocal church, and we'll see if
this actually spills over into another episode there.
There's a lot here, but I think what we have to start is what is
a local church? What is the church?
And there's a lot of different ways that people look at the
church. And so we just thought it'd be
(03:16):
helpful for us to be able to take some time here in a way
that we can't maybe on a Sunday morning or maybe even in like in
a life stage or a small group CGsetting and just talk about the
local church here. So the first question that we
came up with was why should anyone care?
Why should I care about the local church?
(03:38):
And I don't know if that's like the best question to start with,
but it's a question to start with.
And I, I think I'll just kick itoff, but you guys can chip in.
I think we, we have to set a, a biblical context for what the
church is. And so the word in the Greek is
the word ecclesia and into the Old Testament, in the Greek Old
(03:59):
Testament, the Septuagint, that word ecclesia can sometimes even
refer to just an assembly, like an an assembly of the people of
God. And so it doesn't equate the
two. Israel's not the church in the
New Testament, the the church isthe assembly of the redeemed,
the gathering of the redeemed. And so it's a gathering.
And that's something that I think is going to be helpful for
(04:20):
our discussion and giving some clarity about what the nature of
the local church is and why we love it so much.
It's not just the people of God.It's the people of God who have
been called out of the world, right?
Eck Clesia called out ones out of the world and gathered
together as Saints to to, well, fulfill all the different
various functions of the local church.
(04:43):
So that's kind of a functioning definition, I think the called
out ones, the gathered Saints. But why else should we care
about the local church beyond just the definition?
That kind of gives us a nod in that direction that it's a
gathering. Why else should we be caring
about the local church? Yeah, I think, I mean, you're
(05:04):
starting to touch on some of theimportance, but there's
something that takes it beyond just a gathering because we can
gather for a lot of things. We got it for sports events and
the Warriors won last night. That was great.
Huge win. Although by the time you hear
this, it won't be last night. Yes.
True, that's true. But we're just, there's
something going beyond just gathering.
(05:24):
And I think you're getting at just the purpose of it, but also
there's something special. The Spirit being present in the
gathered Saints on a Sunday is is a special thing, but then
beyond that, there's a lot of purpose to that as well and what
gets carried out then amongst the body.
Yeah. Well, let me ask you guys a
question that's that kind of edges into this a little bit
more. Some people will talk about the
(05:46):
local church or the church as something that they don't need
to be a part of because after all, I've heard this said at
various different times, wherever two or three are
gathered in my name, there I am in their midst.
And so, hey, man, if it's just about me and Jesus, or if it's
just about the Spirit and and you know me, then yeah, Jesus
(06:06):
said it himself, or two or threegathered, gathered, then there
you go. And so me and my family, we are
our own church. So what what do you guys have to
think about? I mean, that is a classic
passage on that. So can you tell us about where
it's at context, what that meansin context?
And then yeah, what we want to kind of round that that
(06:29):
discussion about with a little more explanation.
Yeah, the you hear it a lot, butthat's just not what that
passage is talking about. I it's so Matthew 18 is where
it's coming from. I have it here.
And Matthew 1820, so comes on the back end of a discussion on
church discipline, restoring a brother and a difficult passage.
(06:52):
But if you if you read the the verses prior to it and then get
to that part of two or three or gather my name, it has nothing
to do with how people use that verse has nothing to do with
just with the casual gathering or meeting over coffee.
And I don't need the church because two or three gathered.
It has everything to do with what the church is wrestling
through with regarding church discipline.
(07:13):
So difficult topic, but it's just ripped out of context so so
frequently. So yeah, that's good.
Yeah, I hear people not just usethat excuse, but one of the
thing we're going to tackle is are there substitutes for
church, like a para church ministry?
So I'm gathered with people doing good things and we have a
(07:34):
focus and a purpose. And if you almost called to that
para church ministry, how would you respond to those people as
far as just trying to wait the replacement of the church with
their para church involvement? Yeah.
Well, I, I think the one thing we'd all want to say here is
that haven't we all been blessedby parachurch ministry, each one
of us, right? Absolutely.
(07:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.And I've been on the board of 1
and, and helped start a couple. We've started a couple.
So, yeah, I, I think we want to be very aware of the, the
blessing and the benefit that parachurches can provide.
I let me just say this, I'm starting with another
definition. So I guess I'm that guy.
I was going. To ask you to know, I'm not
everyone. Is para church?
No, Yeah, yeah, we're throwing that.
(08:16):
Out para just means to come alongside, right?
So at it, at their very best, those organizations are coming
alongside of a, of a local church and helping to provide
support and strength in an area where maybe a local church
doesn't have time to give that degree of focus to that kind of
ministry. Like for example, a para church
ministry on a college campus. Man, what a blessing to be able
(08:38):
to have a para church ministry focus on this kind of ministry
on a college campus or even a Christian college is a para
church ministry, right? In many cases.
And so they, they, they help augment the, the ministry of the
church without taking over the church, right, and without
becoming a, a trying to become asubstitute for the church.
(08:59):
And so I think at their very best, a para church, even just
by that kind of etymology is coming alongside para the local
church. So I just want to make sure that
we would not just blast pair of churches.
I will also say that there are some pair of churches that do
try to be a substitute for the local church and they denigrate
(09:21):
and kind of diminish the the work of a local church because
they'll say things like, you know, the church doesn't do
this. The church isn't good at this.
The church is missing it on this.
And so we're stepping in and theidea is stepping in and kind of
taking over. And and that would be a pair of
church operating, not optimally,right?
Not biblically, but, yeah. To your question about what a
(09:46):
pair of churches supposed to do,I think that's kind of getting
at that. And I don't know, I mean, if you
guys think about the whole church, I mean, we need to think
a little bit about the the visible church and the invisible
church, right? You'll hear those characters,
those those distinctions drawn. And we should probably just make
a comment on that. If we're thinking about this in
the context of our own people and why should they should care
(10:08):
about the church, we should alsojust kind of throw that on the
table, the difference between the invisible and the invisible
church. Yeah.
Can I ask you about that becauseyou've used a phrase with me
before, if you were cut, do you bleed the whole church or do you
bleed one particular ministry? And we've had an extensive
conversation about that. And it's not that one's good and
one's bad entirely, but maybe itwas helpful for me to hear that
(10:32):
and think through that when we talked about it.
Can you can you answer that question or at least explain
what you're talking about that? Yeah, yeah.
I mean, well it goes a little bit to the connection with the
para church. I mean, we've, we've served in
those and so they're like specializations, right?
And so we love that. We love that ministry
specialization and even, well, we're here serving on staff.
(10:53):
We serve in different ways and we have different
specializations, you could say areas where there's just
ministries we love and there's some ministries that you're not
as involved with for whatever reason.
Actually, I was thinking the other day, man, I haven't
thought about that ministry in along time.
And I used to over help oversee that ministry.
I used to help run that thing. And so, you know, you just move
(11:14):
in and out of different seasons of ministry.
But I think, yeah, I've, I've mentioned before, but if you at
the end of the day were to were to cut me, I just would bleed
the church. And I not like bleed one
ministry or a different ministrybecause Christ didn't die for a
ministry, right? And he didn't come to earth to
purchase the pardon of people who serve in a specific
(11:36):
ministry. So yeah, he died for the church.
And I think that's how we shouldsee any ministry we serve in.
We should see it in the context of I'm serving in this ministry
because I love the church, not because I love just this
ministry. Yeah, that's what I was going to
get at. So you take someone who's great
with kids, maybe young kids, that's all they want to do.
(11:56):
And, and and that's if you, maybe they would answer the
question, if you cut me, I bleedchildren's ministries.
I, I bleed whatever, God bless them, the nursery or whatever.
I'm trying to something that like is not me.
So OK, so then what would you say to those people that like I
live for that, that is what energizes me.
So how is it? What's the balance for them?
(12:19):
Like, OK, that's where they're gifted.
Should they like not not not pursue that, right.
So are you saying that when you cut you, you bleed the whole
church? What about the people that are
not in that pastoral oversight realm?
Is it OK for them to be excited about 1?
Is it bad if it's to the neglectof the other or like you
answered that a little bit but. Yeah, I think, I mean, doesn't
(12:40):
First Corinthians 12 get to thata little bit?
I mean, we, we all have different parts of the body, but
we can't, we can't denigrate other parts that we're not like,
right. And we can't say we won't need
them. So I think there are so many
people I'm rifling through my mind right now and you, we would
be able to give so many names ofour folks who are so good in
certain areas of ministry. They specialize there for
(13:02):
perhaps because of experience just generally in life or even
interest in life. And specifically, I mean,
obviously gifting too, spiritualgifting.
But for whatever reason, they'veserved for, you know, 155 years
in college ministry or whatever.And so those people at their
best, they, they would recognizeand I think a lot of our people
are here. I have served for 35 years in
(13:24):
children's ministries because I love this church.
Like, I don't you think that a lot of our people would say
that. Now, they might not say it just
like that, but what they would not say, and maybe there's a few
people they would not probably say, I have served for 35 years
in children's ministries. And if you take this away from
me, I'm out of here. I don't, I can't think of I,
(13:46):
I've heard that from a couple people historically.
Like if you take this ministry away, then then I'm leaving.
I mean, it's a huge window undertheir heart, right?
And a theological statement too.But man, I can't think of many
of our folks at all that are like that.
I think they would naturally sayI serve in women's ministries
(14:06):
because I love this church. Or if you could kind of coax out
of them, that's what they would want to say.
Not just I love this church because of children's
ministries, but there are some, I mean, there are some who.
So what do you what do you guys think?
Can I ask you, when you guys hear people say we came to this
(14:26):
church and I, we don't mean to convict anybody or make anybody
feel bad. But for the person who might say
like, we're here at this church because of children's
ministries, what, or we're here for this church because of the
youth programs. What do you do with that?
Like how do you walk me through what your response would be on
(14:47):
that? To help shepherd them, guide
them? Because they probably don't mean
that maliciously. Yeah.
And I think it's a good place tostart that that we're already
going down a good path there. They want something good.
They see a value for their kids.So at least we'd want to affirm
that It does make you a little me a little nervous that people
are here for that purpose. And then they what does, what
(15:08):
does the adult do? Well, I have to go sit through
the sermon. Right.
Yes. No offense.
I know more offense, OK, It's OK.
So there is. I've heard worse.
I like. Sometimes the Lord will use that
though, like they they come withwith reasons that are less than
ideal, but the Lord uses that toopen their eyes.
So certainly we wouldn't want todenigrate that.
(15:30):
But at the same time, I think it's just something that you
would want to talk through and help them expose them to it.
So you can either come with a hammer.
That's a terrible reason to cometo church.
What's wrong with you? Or the element of like, I'm glad
you're here. This is so sweet.
Your kids are going to grow here.
That's great. Let's talk about church like
we're doing right now. What like, what is it for?
How are you doing? So my approach and maybe
(15:52):
something else comes to your mind, but my approach to it is
to like shepherd the people through to the reason why they
should be here. Sometimes that happens naturally
without anyone saying anything, just being under the word,
singing, being with other believers.
But sometimes when they're just like show up and then leave,
like meaning like show up to thethe service and leave.
(16:15):
Now we're going back to the ecclesia.
OK, they showed up to the gathering, but they're not part
of the called out once. They're not part of the group.
And so, oh man, there's so many things that I would want to say,
but basically it's just there's,there's a lot of work to be done
there. I wouldn't want to just come out
as a hammer, but I want to say like, let's come alongside you.
(16:36):
Let's talk about the different things in which the Lord could
be doing in your life within this church.
So that's good. I think you, I mean, man, I've
asked so many people because we've been doing membership for
a while now and CGS and all thisstuff.
Hey, why? Why did you come to the church?
So it could be the kids programsis what initially drew you here.
Just some practical reason or a really common one.
(16:59):
Your Google reviews, you know? OK, yeah.
So apparently we're doing well on Google.
Someone's. Going to leave a nasty gram now
though so we. Just kind.
Of. I just crushed Google right
there with one stars. But so you might be drawn here,
but I don't think you stay here for that reason.
That makes sense. Like, so I think people, there's
a good opportunity to start to, to understand the practice of
(17:22):
the church, even to become a member here, you have to walk
through the membership class andyou start to hear the language
of what, of what this church is all about.
And I think it becomes part harder and harder to say, Hey,
I'm just here for the kids programs.
It's like, no, I'm here because this is place of where God's
doing work And just the languagewe were mentioning earlier, like
the the imagery behind the church that God gives us to just
(17:43):
help us understand the value of church.
His bride talking about his body, the family or household of
God. Like those images that I know
you've talked about really startto help make the church, you
start to understand the church better when you start getting
the imagery into your mind. Yeah, That means I don't know if
you have any more thoughts on that.
No, it's good. I actually think that it would
(18:04):
be good to just remind ourselvesof the richness of the local
church with the images that thatthe Scriptures provide.
I mean, as you think about that,lets us say the bride of Christ,
for example, being a picture of the church, how sweet that image
is taken from Ephesians 5, for example, what what do we know
(18:26):
about how dear the church is to Christ?
He loved the church so much thathe died to save her, right?
Like how can you just have a casual commitment when the
Savior gave everything for her? And so it does kind of call you
into a, a, a greater affection for and commitment to the little
(18:49):
church when you realize like what, what great love the Father
has demonstrated toward us in sending his own son to die for
us. And so while we were still
sinners, right? That's one image.
I don't know if you have anything more you want to say
about the bride. No, it's just, I just wanted to
turn there. I was just turning to Ephesians
5, thinking about how we almost always go to that particular
(19:11):
passage on the practical nature of it and thinking about
husbands and wives and, and as we should.
That's the purpose of the the passage there.
But it is on the back of the position that we have in Christ,
if you understand the book as a whole.
And so I was actually just struck by what you're talking
about, thinking about the Paul doesn't just leverage the bride
(19:33):
of Christ, that language just solely to talk about marriage as
if the bride is a means to talk about something greater.
But rather he's saying these areone of the implications of the
bride. And it's just interesting.
Actually, when I first heard this, it was it was kind of
devastating to me about no marriage in heaven.
(19:54):
And I'm. Like, Hey, I like my marriage.
I want to be married in heaven. And so I'm like, OK, what's
wrong with me? Now?
All of a sudden I'm thinking that heaven's going to be worse
because there's no marriage there.
But then, but going back to the,the bride and, and what we
understand here is just meant to, to launch us forward to what
we have with the Lord there. So I just think about that.
(20:15):
Let me say another way. Paul's I said that Paul's not
using. The bride of Christ to then talk
about what's ultimate, which is our relationships with between
husband and wife. In that particular passage in
Ephesians 5, he's talking about it actually the other way.
This is how you're supposed to act.
And I'm telling you, this is themystery.
This is between US and the church.
And so it's like everything is pointing back into that
(20:38):
direction. The value of the bride, the
value of the church, the value of Christ specifically.
Yeah, so. Yeah, Amen to that.
Well, you can fold in all of thebridegroom language in the
Gospels. You can run back to the Old
Testament with all of the different breaches of the the
covenant back then with Israel being seen as covenant treachery
(21:00):
or adultery, spiritual adultery.But that runs all the way back.
I mean, you follow Christ's logic.
It goes all the way back to the garden.
And Adam and Eve being established in that first
marriage was for the purpose of highlighting this this eternal
marriage, right or everlasting marriage with Christ in the
church. And I do love that it's in 525.
(21:22):
You know how many weddings have you done from Ephesians 5 and
many, many times I've just thought, oh Lord, there's enough
here just in 525 through 27. We don't even have to talk about
the the husband and the wife, the bride and the groom.
Let's just talk about the Lord. It's so sweet here dying, giving
himself so that he might sanctify her and doing that
(21:43):
through the washing of the waterwith the word, which gives you
like the primary way that Jesus is sanctifying his people.
The church is through the word, his word, so that he might
present her to himself someday in splendor, radiant without
spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but should be holy
without blemish. So I just look at all that and
(22:04):
I'm like, man, that's there's somuch ecclesiology right there.
Like boom, that one image is almost enough to drive the rest
of our time, but we need to leave that off because I do want
to discuss some other images andmaybe we just sit here for a
while, you guys, I mean, with the image that you mentioned of
the body of Christ. Another reason to care for, to
(22:25):
love the local church is not just because the church is
Christ's bride, but also becausethe church is Christ's body,
which shifts us over into First Corinthians.
I mean, everywhere, right? I mean even in Ephesians, but
but maybe most notably in First Corinthians chapter 12, so.
OK, you got to keep talking. What do you mean, another
(22:46):
definition? No.
I thought everyone's going to know it like it's his body.
Great. Yeah.
Wait, hold on. Yeah.
Well, I just think about can we just talk for a minute about
confusions, talks about the, thechurch's Christ body, he himself
is, is its head. So I mean, the body image is
meant to be seen as like we draweverything from our head, right?
(23:10):
I mean in physical body languageand, and that's the same with
the church and, and, and our Savior.
So I think about that from Ephesians chapter 1, but then
also first Corinthians chapter 12 with all the language of the
body more horizontally, right? Not just vertically with our
head being Christ, but horizontally with each other so.
(23:32):
I think some of this too, I meanhonestly as as a physician when
we start talking about the body and just start.
Well, you should have a lot to say about this here.
But one thing as we keep talkingabout value and of the bride and
the purchase price, and we talk about membership, it also gives
a value to the other members, right?
And so, as the Bible says, if there is a member who's hurting,
(23:57):
like for example, if you stub your toe, your entire focus goes
to your toe. Correct.
And you're like, how can we get the toe better because the
entire body is affected by something as simple as a big toe
getting stubbed. And so it it gives a sense of
and even First Corinthians 12 that it's surrounding the use of
gifts. How can we serve one another
with the gifts that God has given gives us a sense of
(24:20):
there's value to the purchase price.
And that means there's value horizontally that I now care
about you because you have value.
And then you're uniquely gifted.And everybody's a toe, thank
goodness. And everybody's an eyeball or a
heart. And so it creates a sense of, of
value amongst us that there's sweet ways that people are
(24:41):
serving, not just in teaching, you know, but there's so many
ways. We've highlighted some of those
today of just ways you can serveeach other in the church.
I think we, I think that's exactly right, Matt.
In fact, explicitly Paul says the I cannot say to the hand,
First Corinthians 12/21 I have no need of you, nor again the
head to the foot. I have no need of you.
(25:02):
On the contrary. So Paul's being emphatic here at
the parts of the body that seem to be weaker, weaker are
indispensable. So I mean, like, woe to us if
we, you know, make much of thosewho might do more glorious
things, more honorable things. Paul says is the language he
uses and then treat with contempt those who seem to have
(25:24):
less honorable uses in the body.Man, we cannot think like that.
We are one body, right? I mean, that's he's so emphatic
about that. And he says even at the at the
end that paragraph, if one member suffers, everyone
suffers. If one member is honored,
everybody rejoices. So we are truly like I just to
(25:46):
drag the old COVID phrase out and beat it one more time.
We truly are all in it together.This comes up a lot for me.
I don't know about you guys whenwe do new member interviews,
because people will come in wanting to join the church.
And by the time they get to thatspot they're talking about, I'll
ask him like, Hey, what'd you, what'd you think about the, the
meetings that we had the, the four sessions and you're
(26:07):
learning about the church. And they'll say, you, you guys
do a good job with this. I like how you do this.
And then when we get to the end,when everything's good and
they're going to become a member, I say, OK, one thing
though, here's what you need to do.
You need to change your language.
Quit saying you and say we. And so that element of being
part of the body changes it to where?
(26:27):
And I'll almost always give the illustration of like, if someone
comes and says our church is notloving N Greek's not loving, you
need to wear that. I need to wear that.
We are not loving. Now, whether or not it's true is
another issue. But just whatever the accusation
might be that we all like it says here, suffer or honored
together. And so I personally try to help
(26:48):
people understand, like you havegifts that I don't have.
You're a part of the body. We need you.
You're not just joining like an appendages, but like you are
part of the church. We need you, You're gifted.
Where can you serve? And that's not just me telling
you we have a deficiency. Deficiency.
That's the Lord's image of the body.
You have something to give. What is it?
(27:10):
Yeah, yeah. Even the appendix has a role, so
you say hey the appendix is nothing, just pop it out.
But it turns out it's got an immune function to it, so you.
Did say there was one body part that didn't have a function?
You yelled that out in class. Should we leave that off?
Yeah, we'll leave that off, Yeah.
What do you call that? Is there a name for that?
Well, the useless organ. Well, like an appendage.
(27:31):
An appendage. OK.
All right. Appendix would be considered
useless. Interesting.
Yeah, we can't say. It all.
I'm trying to help you, yeah. Jeremy is.
Really trying to. Yeah, holding off his wife.
To come to life stage. Here that one.
OK, OK. Yeah, yeah, he blurted one out
in the middle of class, and yeah, his wife gave him a little
glare. Like that's not.
Yeah, we'll hold off. OK, all right, all right,
(27:53):
Someone can go figure that out on their own.
Can I shift to what what I thinkis really helpful here guys, is
that we're, we're taking time out of the scriptures to, to
just see how the word value is the right word 'cause I how
valuable the church is to the Lord and how valuable it should
be to us. The reason why I think value is
a good word is because when we think about the bride image,
(28:17):
then I think we're, we're talking about beauty, right?
That he might present her to himself radiant.
Like that's a statement about beauty when we're talking about
the body. First Corinthians 12 we're
talking about, I mean, to a certain degree we're talking
about authority, right? The church is under the
authority of its head. That's more Ephesians language.
But First Corinthians 12, it's functional.
(28:41):
There's a really sweet, like functional use of the body, but
there's another dominant image too.
And it communicates a different kind of shade of value with the
church being the household of God.
And, and I, I love this image and it should be another reason
(29:02):
why people should love their local church.
So can you guys just crack open like when you when I say the the
the household of God, where doesyour mind go in the scripture?
Why is that sweet and should make us value the church even
more? First Timothy, Yeah.
You beat me in there. 15 would be where I'd go.
(29:22):
OK, yeah. I mean, really First Timothy,
that is kind of the crux of whatPaul's writing household rules
under the church. It's Timothy to say, hey, this
is how you establish a church. And these are the reasons it's
important that thesis statementsin 315 where he says I will, I'm
writing to you so you know how one ought to conduct himself in
the household of God. And then This is why I think
(29:43):
what you're getting at, which isthe Church of the living God,
the pillar and support of the truth.
So it really, no, it's a household.
But then he gives you so much flavor there with those extra
phrases. Yeah, to say why it's so
important. But it is.
It's a, it's a family. Yeah.
It's a family, Yeah. It's a family, yeah, with a,
with a purpose. Yeah.
Yeah, and there's so many people.
(30:04):
I mean, once you get out of college, people are looking for
their people. So there, there is an element, I
think that you can look at the church as a family in the sense
of it's not biblical, but just like my people, like I just hang
out with them. It's it's comfortable.
Yeah. That's not what we're talking
about here, right. The the family here.
How would you, how would you describe the difference between
someone who comes to church because they have a place?
(30:25):
Like, I don't go to the bar and I don't have a hobby.
That's like a big group of people, but the church is a
group of people. So if someone were to say, well,
that's my family, How would you distinguish biblically then
based on this or as you're thinking about it, the
difference in someone who's looking at the church as a
family like that versus the biblical definition of a family?
Yeah. Why?
(30:47):
So immediately I'm thinking a little bit more theologically
admittedly than just out of a passage, but the the radical
difference is that the head of the household is, is God.
I mean, God is our Father and there's no other family dynamic
like it. And and the sweetest family,
(31:08):
earthly family or sweetest groupthat you want to say is family
cannot compare to the household of God.
Our God is our Father. And so we're all brothers and
sisters for eternity. I mean, the, the, the greatness
of this particular family stems from the greatness of the one
(31:30):
with whom we have to do right. So the bar, there's no head of
the household. I mean, you can say that the
owner is, but you're paying customer you, you like, we're
all family. As you know, the Warriors fan
base, we're all family. Well, no, you actually pay for
that game and they don't care a thing about you.
As soon as you stop rooting for them, they're just looking for
(31:51):
other fans. And so all that family language
breaks down and all those different groupings.
It doesn't break down with an earthly family, right?
I mean, way it's understood biblically.
I That's true, but there's nothing that even comes close to
comparing to the household of God.
And I think it's amazing how it transcends our relationships
here in the sense of with my wife as a believer, I'm more her
(32:14):
brother in Christ than I am her husband for all eternity.
I will forever be her brother inChrist.
Yep, and and so the family language, what we see here
extends this is how we relate toone another and how we will
relate to one another forever. That's crazy to think about.
That's way beyond, hey, I'm thisage and I'm looking for a group
(32:36):
of people to hang out with that this is like this way bigger.
Oh yeah, yeah. Well and then God the Father
gives up his Son, his only begotten Son.
So the family image just keeps going on and on and on and then
what is the only begotten son accomplish in his death on the
cross he accomplishes the ability for us to be have our
(32:56):
adoption that God predestined usbecause he loved us.
Ephesians chapter one for adoption of sons.
He chose us before we even existed.
And then the sun comes the only begotten and dies to secure the
adoption of a whole host of brethren.
The Hebrew says, right? And so all of these sons and
daughters that that are purchased by the son's death on
(33:22):
the cross. So you think about that.
The family dynamics just keep exploding into something more
and more and more radically unique.
There's no family like God's family, and nothing even comes
close. As I'm getting the sense that
we're going to be able to talk about this topic a little bit
more. Yeah, that's true.
So should we keep it going? Maybe we can.
(33:44):
Yeah. Second episode.
Let's do it. Continue on about the church.
Yeah, that's really good. Passion for all of us, yeah.
OK, let's get let's close it down here.
And thank you guys for listeningto this episode of Afterward.
Extended conversations about topics that matter.
Join us next time. We will have a Part 2 on this
for sure. Thanks guys.
Appreciate it.
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