August 23, 2024 • 40 mins
What happens when the person you trust most becomes your greatest enemy? This episode of Against All Odds, the Less Than 1% Chance podcast, features Mia Hanks, a remarkable survivor of nearly three decades of covert narcissistic abuse. Fresh off the release of her poignant memoir, "Bride-Made, a Memoir" Mia shares her courageous journey from realizing the insidious nature of her abuse to finally breaking free. We explore the chilling realities of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), including gaslighting and other manipulative behaviors that distort a victim’s sense of reality.
Why do victims find it so hard to leave their abusers? Mia and I discuss the intricate web of psychological conditioning and financial control that traps victims in these toxic relationships. Hear Mia’s firsthand account of the emotional turmoil, fear, and guilt that keep many from seeking help, as well as the manipulative tactics abusers use to alienate them from friends and family. By raising awareness and educating future generations, we aim to arm listeners with the knowledge to recognize and combat these abusive behaviors.
Navigating a divorce with a narcissist is no easy feat, and Mia provides invaluable insights into the emotional and practical challenges involved. From the vindictive actions during divorce proceedings to the disturbing patterns of control, including sleep deprivation, Mia’s story sheds light on the hidden struggles many endure. We also discuss the path to healing, emphasizing the importance of overcoming guilt and validating the trauma experienced, even amidst fleeting moments of normalcy. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand or escape the clutches of narcissistic abuse.
Connect with Mia:
Instagram: @Npd.andme
TikTok- @npdandme
Book: Bride-Made, A Memoir
Website: https://miajhanks.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to the Against All Odds the Less Than
1% Chance podcast with your host, maria Aponte, where we will
hear stories of incrediblepeople thriving against all odds
, and my hope is that we can allsee how life is always
happening for us, even when weare the Less Than 1% Chance.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, hey, welcome back to Against All Odds, the
Less Than 1% Chance podcast withyour host, maria Aponte.
I hope you're doing fantastictoday.
I am so incredibly honored thatI have this guest on today.
You won't see her face, you'llactually see the cover of her
book.
I am just in awe with what I'velearned so far about her.
(00:43):
I am so incredibly appreciativeof the fact that she's here.
Her name is Mia Hanks.
She's a survivor ofnarcissistic abuse.
She was married to a covertnarcissist for 29 years and has
recently published a memoirtitled Bridemaid a memoir.
She hopes that with her book,she can help other victims find
(01:07):
their voice and speak out aboutnarcissistic abuse.
She's really passionate abouthealing from narcissistic abuse,
gaslighting, coercive control,divorcing a narcissist.
Those are topics that she issuper passionate about and I
know that this is going to serveso many and I have just so much
(01:28):
respect for the strength thatit takes to remove yourself from
this situation.
So, mia, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I'm so excited to have you here.
Do you want to get into alittle bit of your story and
then we'll go into somequestions after that?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, sure.
So you read my bio.
I was married to a covertnarcissist for 29 years and
finally was able to understandwhat I was going through.
And it took a long time tofigure it out, but once I did I
was able to get away and start anew life.
(02:12):
So it's been a journey, forsure, and I decided I guess I'll
give you a little bit about whyI wrote the book I'm not an
author bit about why I wrote thebook.
I'm not an author, I've neverwritten before.
(02:33):
But when I was going through,when I realized that what was
happening to me was abuse andthat my ex-husband was in fact a
narcissist, I started doing alot of research about narcissism
, and there are a lot of greatbooks out there.
I read lots and lots of them.
The problem I found was thatall of these books were written
generally by a psychologist, atherapist, and they were very
(02:53):
academic.
And what I wanted to find, whatI wanted to read, was someone
who had actually lived this andI just couldn't find anything
out there really.
So I decided, once I had gottenaway and gone through some
therapy and done some healing, Ireally thought there might be a
need for a memoir type of abook from someone's perspective
(03:17):
who had lived these things.
So that's why I wrote it and Ihope that it's helpful to other
people out there that might bein similar situations that where
they're not sure what they'regoing through.
And I include a lot of tips and, for instance, tips on leaving
a narcissist.
That's a very difficult thingto do, so I hope that it's.
(03:40):
I hope that people can benefitfrom the information in there
and, just from my experience, Ihope it can help people.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Can you give some background,because I know that this word is
said a lot more lately, but noteverybody understands what it
is.
So can you give some backgroundon what is narcissistic
personality disorder?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah.
So narcissism is probably anoverused term and really
everyone has some narcissistictraits.
It's just human.
But narcissistic personalitydisorders is a different thing
in that it is a personalitydisorder.
These people, they just theytend to lack empathy.
(04:25):
They are very self-serving,everything is about them and so
they are master manipulators andthey're all about control.
So when you're with anarcissist, it is 100% them 100%
of the time, and you slowlylose yourself to these people.
(04:46):
They will take everything youhave emotionally and they just
don't have any remorse.
It's just, it's about them andno one else.
So everything that they do,seemingly nice, generally has an
agenda behind it.
So it's a hard thing to graspif you haven't lived it.
Most people that have not livedin such a situation can't
(05:08):
believe that those kinds ofthings happen.
And myself I was very young whenI got married.
I was 21.
And I came from a verysheltered background.
No trauma in my past, just avery idyllic childhood.
And I came into this marriagevery naive.
I didn't.
I had never known a narcissist,I had never known anyone with
(05:31):
this level of personalitydisorder, and so I just didn't
think these kinds of peopleexisted.
It just wasn't.
I couldn't wrap my head aroundit.
So I spent the better part ofmy marriage convinced, through
gaslighting and whatnot, thatthe issues were me, it was all
me, it was not him, and sothat's why it took so so long
(05:52):
for me to finally start figuringit out.
Narcissists, they don't getbetter, they tend to get worse
with age.
So you just reach a breakingpoint.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So again, another word that's being used a lot and
I don't know if people trulyunderstand it.
Can you explain whatgaslighting is?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, so gaslighting it is a word that suddenly
gained a lot of popularity.
Gaslighting is something thatnarcissists will do.
Almost all narcissists use thistactic, and it's basically
where they change the narrativeto make you think that you're
going crazy.
And it actually comes from.
(06:32):
There was a play, and I'm notsure it was a very old play,
maybe from the forties orsomething, and then later it was
a movie, but it was a playcalled Gaslight and it was about
I haven't seen it, but Iunderstand it's about a husband
who tried to make his wife thinkshe was going crazy.
He would dim the gaslights inthe evenings and she would
(06:56):
notice, and then he would tellher no, I didn't do that, you're
losing your mind.
So that's where the termoriginates.
But they'll do things likethey'll say if you're upset
about something they said or did, they'll say, well, it wasn't
that big of a deal, you are justtoo sensitive.
And then you really start tosecond guess yourself and say,
well, maybe it wasn't a big deal, maybe I am crazy, maybe I'm
(07:21):
too sensitive and I'm takingthings too seriously.
And so you start to convinceyourself that, yeah, they're
right, I'm wrong, I must belosing it.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah.
So I have a question or maybejust a kind of a story that so I
have three kids and my youngestis 15 and she got into this
long distance relationship.
He was like three and a halfhours away.
They met via a mutual friend,never met each other, and so
(07:52):
this was always all over thephone and maybe like a month
into them quote unquote dating.
At that time it was like theirone month.
Quote unquote dating.
At that time it was like theirone month.
And he posts on Snapchat likethis huge, like, oh my gosh,
love bombing.
My girlfriend's perfect, I loveher so much, she's beautiful.
(08:15):
This huge, huge paragraph abouthow much he loves his most
perfect girlfriend.
And then she posts somethingnot as long, it was like maybe
less of a paragraph than what hehad.
And I caught her with her aphone when she was not supposed
(08:38):
to have it, because I take theirphones overnight.
I saw the messages and he wasbasically telling her what is
that?
It is that all you're posting,is that all oh?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
and I was like oh, my god, like I was
hyperventilating is.
I was like, oh my god, I seethis is like a start of a really
horrible life if this is whatshe's allowing to happen.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And I again, she's 15 .
So I had to be there and I havetwo older ones, so I just had
to be very careful of how I saidthings.
And she was still asleep and soI took the phone.
So she knew that I had thephone and I didn't give her
phone, and so when she wakes upin the morning, I had already
(09:25):
meditated, I worked out, I waslike I need to get my head in
straight so that I can approachthis so that she doesn't feel
attacked.
I was on our way to anappointment with her and I was
like so obviously, that I foundthis like old phone that we had.
And she's like, yeah, I figured, old phone that we had.
(09:48):
And she's like, yeah, I figured, and.
And so I was like so I lookedthrough your messages and I saw
this conversation happening, andI'm not here to tell you
whether or not you should bewith him, or that's your choice,
right?
But, my job as your mom is tomake you aware of things that I
need you to be aware of.
So his post for your onemonth-aversary was so beautiful,
(10:17):
super sweet, very loving, andthat's amazing.
And then he was telling youthat you were not enough.
So he was telling you that youwere not enough.
So he was telling you that youwere perfect in the post and
that you were amazing and allthe things, and then telling you
that you didn't do enough andmaking you feel bad for not
(10:37):
posting as much as he did.
And and I just want to tell you, my love, that that is a
combination of love, bombing andgaslighting.
And I need you to be very awarethat I don't know this kid.
He's 14, 15 years old.
I don't know how he was broughtup, so I can't tell you what he
(11:01):
is accustomed to.
However, that is not okay.
That is the start of a veryabusive relationship and I
really need you to be aware ofthat.
And she stayed quiet,thankfully, that same day later
in the afternoon, she had atherapy appointment and I'm so
(11:22):
incredibly grateful that thingshappened the way they did, but
she went in there.
Yeah, it was perfect.
It was so perfect.
I truly feel like everythingthat happens always tends to
like fall into place somehow oranother.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
And so it was this big coincidence that she did.
And when she got out of therapyshe was.
She was like, well, mom, I haveto have three conversations.
I was like, OK, and she waslike, well, mom, I have to have
three conversations.
I was like, OK, and she's likethe first one is with you.
I'm so sorry that I took thatold phone.
I I will accept theconsequences to that because I
know that was wrong, because wehad a whole conversation about
(12:00):
that.
The second is with herboyfriend and she said I do
realize that's what he was doingand I do realize that I felt
horrible about myself and that Ireally need to work on me.
I need to let him know that heneeds to work on whatever is
(12:21):
happening with him, and if hewants to work on it as a couple,
that's fine.
But I need to work on me andloving me more and I was like,
oh my God, what is happening?
This?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
is awesome, that is awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
And then so she had this conversation with him and
they ended up breaking up like amonth later, which is what
needed to happen anyways, but Iwasn't going to be the one to
tell her that, because I was ateenager too, and I would have
been like, oh no, you told me,no, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do
it.
Yeah, so, and then the thirdconversation was one with my
(12:55):
boyfriend, which is we've beentogether for five years, so her
stepdad and how she's justappreciative of the role that he
plays in her life and that shecan talk to him about everything
and really feels grateful forthat.
So it was just an awesomesituation all around and
hopefully with that she is nowmore equipped to see those signs
(13:19):
, and that's the problem.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Most people are not.
Yeah, they don't.
Um, they would see somethinglike what you just described and
really not think that much ofit.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, I feel bad, but it's not that big of a deal and
that's just the start.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Maybe he's right, Maybe I didn't post as much.
And how can you be told thatyou're perfect and amazing and
beautiful and then you're notenough?
Like what?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Just, oh my gosh, I saw that and I was like, oh my
God, I'm here in my officereading these messages and I'm
like, oh my God, okay, I need togo meditate, I need to calm
down before I go in there, andlike guns blazing.
And I was like, okay, I need tocalm down.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
And I did, and it was the way like myself five years
ago, when my oldest was 15,would have been totally a
different scenario.
So I feel like I'm gratefulthat I've grown as a parent, but
what you were describing I waslike, oh my God, that was my
(14:29):
like scary.
Oh goodness, don't start thisso early.
Let's get this, let's get thisaware.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
It starts so slow and so, quote, unquote, innocent,
yeah.
And then, before you know it,you're in the thick of it, and
then you're stuck, you're stuck.
Basically, so the moregaslighting and the more control
that's heaped on you, the morestuck you feel and you just
don't think you can get out.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, so what do you think are the reasons that many
victims stay with their abusersfor so long?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think a lot of victims really are convinced
that they are the problem andthat if they will change, if
they will work on themselves,then they can make the
relationship work, becausethat's how you're conditioned to
believe.
And another reason that I thinkvictims stay is, well, a couple
.
Another reason is out of fear.
(15:23):
They just don't want to knowwhat the alternative, what the
consequences could be to themleaving, and so, out of fear,
it's just, it seems, the safestthing to do.
But another reason people stayis another thing that
narcissists do is financialabuse.
So in a lot of theserelationships, the narcissist is
(15:45):
controlling all the money.
Yeah, so even if you're in ahigh socioeconomic tier, it
really doesn't matter, becauseif you can't access that money,
if you can't, I had my husband,had all these accounts and he
had a credit card and all thesecards and such.
All I had access to was justthe day-to-day checking account.
(16:06):
I had a debit card and allthese cards and such I all I had
access to was just theday-to-day checking account.
I had a debit card and that wasit.
And so, fortunately, I had myparents and they are the ones
that ultimately helped me getout.
But if I hadn't had them.
I had no funds to like.
I could have gone in and gottena hotel for a couple of nights,
but I had no funds or resourcesto say, go get an apartment.
(16:30):
I wouldn't have been able to dothat.
I'm living in this beautiful,big home behind gates and yet I
had no resources to even go getmyself an apartment.
So how did it have been for myparents being able to help me?
My only option, again being inthis big, beautiful home, would
(16:52):
have been to go to a shelter.
Yeah that would have been myonly option, and so I think a
lot of women are in thatsituation and that is their only
option.
They can stay where they are,they can go to a shelter.
So there's just there are not alot of good options.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah, I agree, there's it's.
I have a friend of mine thathad to escape a very abusive
relationship and with two kidsin a shelter, it was just hard.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, and I think most people just don't want to
go that route and most assuredly, when you leave a narcissist,
the first thing they're going todo is cut off any funding
they're going to during the bankaccount which was my experience
29 years of marriage and Ididn't even have he kept the
bank account so low that Icouldn't even buy groceries.
(17:42):
So they can get revengeful andit is a scary time.
It is scary.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, I bet.
So what are the?
Obviously there's financialchallenges in leaving a
narcissist, but are there anyother things that that they
tried to put in your way asobstacles.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, in my situation I dealt with a lot of guilt,
and a lot of that was from allof the gaslighting.
It took me a long time tounderstand that he was the one
that had the issues.
I was still second guessingmyself and he knew that.
So he tried to make amends andwhatnot.
They weren't sincere, butnonetheless he tried because he
(18:24):
knew he could play on that guiltfactor.
So they do that.
And then the other thing thatthey do and my ex-husband did
this is they will start going toyour friends and your family
and saying she's on hinge, she'shaving a midlife crisis, you've
got to talk to her, make hercome back.
She's just going crazy, andreally what they're doing is
(18:45):
damage control just going crazy.
And really what they're doingis damage control.
They're getting out there toeverybody they can, as fast as
they can, to let people thinkthat that you were the problem,
that you're having thisbreakdown and that's why you
left, because they can't havetheir image tarnish.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yes, my ex-husband did that and I think it's a very
common tactic.
It's a race to see who can getto the most people the fastest
and if they can get their storyout there and make you look
ridiculous a case that'shappening currently with a lady
that her husband was a pastor.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Is a pastor, was a pastor yes, I'm familiar with
this.
I've seen this as well, that hespeaks to the whole church, yes
(19:46):
About her mental state and like, oh my gosh, yeah, can it be
any more evident?
That's exactly what he is Isthat like exactly it's been.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
It's been all over social media and people are
reacting to it.
It's scary.
It is so scary how sure theyare that they are right.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's just , it makes me very having
daughters particularly.
I know that this isn't just awoman thing, but having
daughters it.
It terrifies me, especiallyhaving gone through just a
situation with a 15-year-old,and I'm very vocal and I love
(20:35):
that you were able to put yourstory in a book for people to be
able to experience, even yourwords, what you experience,
because I feel like like thesearen't things that normally are
(20:56):
talked about, and had ourparents been more aware of this,
these situations and vocalize.
I'm very open with my kids.
I talk to them about absolutelyeverything experiences that
I've gone through and everything, because I remember having gone
through some experiences as ateenager that I didn't feel I
(21:19):
could talk to my parents about,and and and I want the exact
opposite of that for my kids.
I want them to come to me aboutabsolutely everything, and so
these stories are so importantwhich, honestly, I'm going to
get your book and I'm going toread it so that I can have that
(21:41):
in my back pocket for mydaughter to be able to read or
at least listen to the story.
I gauge what I'm obviouslytelling each of the kids, but
and this is like so importantbecause it fuels awareness it.
It feeds that awareness to somany people and I I truly like
(22:04):
hope that all people like readthis and are aware of the signs,
because it's so scary.
My sister was in an abusiverelationship very narcissistic
as well, but it was physicalabuse as well, and so I remember
feeling the like powerlessfeeling of I.
(22:26):
She completely closed us offbecause she knew that as soon as
I found out, or anybody foundout what was happening, like it
would have been embarrassing tothe victim.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
That's another factor , and in my situation, no one
knew what was really going onbecause it's embarrassing.
And that's one thing that Istruggled with when I decided to
write my book was this isembarrassing.
And the therapist that I wasseeing said no, it's not
embarrassing.
And I said but it is.
To me it's embarrassing toadmit that I put up with this
(23:05):
for as long as I did and that Ilived this way for so long.
And you get into this groovewhere you don't want people to
know.
So you do tend to shut down andclose people off because you
don't want them to know what'sreally happening.
So and that's another reasonwhy I think people end up
staying in these relationships,it's just the embarrassment
(23:27):
factor.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I think people end up staying in these relationships.
It's just the embarrassmentfactor.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely cansee that.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So what are the challenges in divorcing a
narcissist?
Well, they're very vindictiveand they don't.
They, you know, they're notpeople that can handle the word
no.
So right away, when you leave anarcissist, that is a huge blow
to their ego.
They are going to try to getrevenge.
So in my situation, when I leftmy ex-husband, like I said, he
(23:58):
tried to drain the bank accounts, make it to where I couldn't
even buy groceries.
They have no, they'rerelentless.
They just they don't care howmuch they hurt you at that point
, because you are no longer asupply to them.
They don't, they can't own youanymore.
So it's the anything they haveto do to hurt you.
They will.
(24:18):
But yeah, the divorce process,just doing things like drawing
the process out as long as theycan.
One thing he thought he coulddo is just wear me down.
When we went to our divorcemediation.
We were there for 10 hours.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Oh my gosh 10 hours.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So he just thought the longer he could hold out and
the longer he could fight, hewas waiting for me to give up,
just give in.
And so that's what they'll do.
They'll just try to wear youdown to the point that you say
I'm tired, I just want out.
You just take everything, Ijust want out and I don't want
to fight anymore.
So they're just relentless.
(24:58):
And that's the biggestchallenge in divorcing them.
And then the weird thing isthey don't care because they
don't have that empathy in anormal divorce with normal
neurotypical people.
Generally, I would think thehusband would want to make sure
that it's on some level themother of his children was being
(25:19):
taken care of, but not with anarcissist.
They don't care if they couldleave you homeless, living under
the freeway, they would beproud of themselves.
So that's the biggest challenge.
They literally do not care, andonce you've left, that's it.
They're done with you and theydon't care what they have to do
to hurt you.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's really tough because you have
these like expectations ofpeople that they can't even
fulfill and it's so hard toprocess the why are you, why
were you doing this?
(25:59):
Yeah it, yeah.
It's really really hard becausethen they also don't take into
account, like, how this ishurting our children or right
our family, and to see that thisis their parent, and it blows
my mind.
I wholeheartedly believe thatjust people that I'm close to
(26:22):
have been married to narcissistsand it is very frustrating,
even watching it happen, thatyou're like who is this person?
What are they thinking?
Why are they talking to theirkids about their parents that
way, like just, and everythingthat you're saying is like oh my
(26:44):
gosh, yeah, yeah, check, check,check, oh wow, this is it just
blows my mind, it's crazy howthey're all so much alike.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
It's almost like they have this playbook that they
all follow.
It's just down to like theweird things that they do.
That I thought was just myex-husband, and the more
research and reading I did andtalking to people, I realized
these little quirks.
It's typical of narcissists.
For example, sleep deprivation.
They like to use sleepdeprivation.
(27:13):
They like to keep you sleepdeprived so that you are in a
fog and when you're tired andworn down you're easier to
control.
Yeah, oh, my gosh, Somethingwith my ex-husband, but in fact
I've heard so many people talkabout that.
My narcissistic husband won'tlet me sleep or they keep waking
me up on purpose so that I'mtired all day.
(27:35):
So it's just weird littlequirky things like that that
they all do and it's very odd.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Wow, that's so interesting.
But that makes sense because,yeah, absolutely, you're way
easier to control when you'rejust so exhausted.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yes, and then, of course, that leads to health
issues I experienced in the last, probably two years of my
marriage.
I was experiencing chronic pain, headaches, stomach aches.
I felt nauseous all the timeand I was just over tired, just
so, so fatigued, all the time.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, Isn't it?
And I say this from my ownexperience.
But isn't it crazy how whenyour body is in dis-ease, it
creates this disease and whenyou heal that dis-ease,
everything kind of falls backinto place.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, I was about two weeks after I officially moved
out.
It was amazing how different Ifelt.
I wasn't experiencing so muchpain and I realized so much of
how I was feeling was because Iwas under so much stress.
You live in this fight orflight mode all the time.
It's just not.
(28:53):
It's just not good.
It really does impact yourhealth in ways that you can't
see.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
So that's, if for no other reason to leave, do it for
your health.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, I agree.
I wholeheartedly believe that.
So do you believe that anarcissist can ever change?
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Unfortunately I don't .
I hate to sound so like a doomand gloom, but I just don't
think so.
Npd is.
It is a personality disorderand there's not a cure.
And the problem is you can goto therapy with a narcissist all
day long.
It does not do any good.
I did that, in fact, with myex-husband.
(29:35):
We went to two differentmarriage therapists.
It doesn't work.
Narcissists love to go totherapy because they can prove
it.
Yeah, they charm the therapistand it's then they get the
therapist on their side If it'san unexperienced therapist.
Now we ultimately ended up witha really good therapist who had
(29:55):
a lot of experience, and afterabout the eighth session she
actually kicked him out oftherapy, which was I didn't
think therapists did that, butshe actually told him.
She said she said I can't helpyou.
Did that, but she actually toldhim.
She said she said I can't helpyou.
She said you're not self-aware.
And she said you are notwilling or able to see things
from other people's perspectives.
(30:17):
And for that reason she said Iknow amount of therapy is going
to help you.
And she literally told him Iwish you luck, don't come back.
So no, I don't think that theycan get better.
There might be a fraction of apercentage of narcissists that
decide they want to becomeself-aware.
That's just not the nature oftheir personality, so I only see
(30:40):
that they get worse.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And my ex-husband.
He just got progressively worseand worse and worse, more
insidious, just mean.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, because they also have more time to continue
to like cause.
They're very convinced of theirstory, so they have more time
to just like fester on thatstory, and I could see that.
I could definitely see that.
So what limiting beliefs orroadblocks did you have to
(31:14):
overcome in order to get towhere you are today?
And then, which ones are you,which ones do you love?
Like helping other people workthrough themselves?
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Well, for me, the biggest roadblock, the biggest
issue that I had after I leftand just dealing with the
healing side of it, was theguilt I felt guilty for leaving
and I told the therapist I wasseeing, which I think therapy
was a big help for me.
I told her, I said I keptsaying I've ruined his life
(31:47):
because when I left it did turnhis world upside down.
And she said no, he tried toruin your life.
So I had to turn that aroundand realize that no, I didn't.
It made life inconvenient forhim for a while going through
this messy divorce.
It was a very hostile divorcebut it didn't ruin his life.
(32:10):
So it took time for me torealize that.
The other thing that I feltguilty about was I kept saying
every day wasn't bad.
So how do I know that I did theright thing by leaving?
Because there were good days,we did have good times and I was
talking to a friend about thisand my friend said this isn't a
(32:32):
math problem.
One good day does not cancelout a bad day.
And then the best kind ofadvice that I was given was
there are not enough good daysin the world to make up for one
day of trauma that he put youthrough and that was a huge,
(32:53):
eye-opening statement.
Yeah, it really did.
The guilt that I wasexperiencing just vanished at
that point and that justreplayed in my head.
If just one day of trauma, oneday of trauma, is too much, yeah
.
So if we have 364 good days andone horrible day of trauma,
(33:16):
that's too much.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
That guilt was the biggest factor for me.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, I could see that and we tend to attach
ourselves to the good times.
We tend to attach ourselves tothe good times, yes, and, but it
was so good and I was so inlove, or it's so sad.
That's what we do and we likedon't see the, don't see those
(33:43):
really tough days, or that.
Or you don't want to rememberthe heartbreak and you sobbing
in your room or whatever.
You learn to block it out.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
You just block it out and the next day is a good day.
So you move on.
And another thing narcissistswill do they call it
breadcrumbing.
So when they think they'vepushed you maybe a little bit
too far, they reel you back inby the.
They might buy you a gift, theymight take you out to a nice
dinner, they might be reallynice for about a week.
(34:14):
And then that sort of you startto forget well, that was really
bad, but look at these nicethings he did, and you focus on
the good and you suppress thebad.
And yeah, that's another reasonthat I think people end up
staying.
It's just this give and take.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah, and they continue to hold on to the good
days.
Yes, so that's such a cycle,and it's scary that I feel like
they do it even unconsciously.
They don't even realize thatthis is the type of human you're
being and just programmed thatway, yeah.
(34:53):
Yeah, I'm so incredibly happythat you got out, because no one
deserves to live that way and Iagree, I think that therapy is
the seriously.
I think everybody in the worldneeds to find a good therapist.
Yeah, yeah, we would be muchhappier people and more healed
(35:15):
people, because it is so hard tonavigate sometimes and when you
have a third party perspectivethat can guide you in a way that
is that kind of makes you digin deep, because they typically
do, and that's why we don't dothe work on our own is because
(35:38):
that dig deep moment is so hardto yeah, it's easier just to
suppress it yeah.
And unfortunately, when we dosuppress, it just eats away at
us even more so it really does.
Oh, my goodness, so I can't waitto read your book.
I am very excited for ourlisteners to listen to this
(36:01):
episode.
I think it just opened up a lotof conversations and I truly
hope that your story.
I think it's such a blessing tosee how life is happening for
you and not to you, right, soyou could look at it as I'm the
victim of this, or you could say, okay, I experienced this and
(36:23):
what purpose can I find from it?
And I think that this book issuch a beautiful purpose.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
I hope so.
You were talking earlier about.
I think one of the biggestquestions that victims will get
asked is why do you stay so long?
And that's one thing that is.
It's very interesting and Ithink there are a lot of answers
like I talked about, but in mybook I put a quote in.
There are a lot of answers likeI talked about, but in my book
(36:51):
I put a quote in and I thinkit's the best explanation for
the best answer for thatquestion, and it's a quote I
found online and it's actuallyby Stephen King, the author and
I.
My understanding is if this issomething that he said during an
interview.
I haven't seen the interview,but I thought the quote was just
.
It really sums it up, so it'sjust a short little paragraph so
(37:13):
I can.
I share it.
Yeah, absolutely Okay.
There's a phrase the elephant inthe living room which purports
to describe what it's like tolive with a drug addict, an
alcoholic and ab.
People outside suchrelationships will sometimes ask
how could you let such abusiness go on for so many years
?
Didn't you see the elephant inthe living room?
(37:35):
And it's so hard for anyoneliving in a more normal
situation to understand theanswer that comes closest to the
truth.
I'm sorry, but it was therewhen I moved in.
I didn't know it was anelephant, I thought it was part
of the furniture.
There comes an aha moment forsome folks the lucky ones when
they suddenly recognize thedifference.
So I think that's a goodexplanation, for, like, I
(37:59):
married very young and I lovethe part where it says I thought
it was part of the furniture.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I thought this was how it was part of the furniture
.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
I thought this was, this was how it was supposed to
be.
I thought this was normal andas time went on, I made it my
normal.
Yeah, I normalized the abuse.
So I think that's probably thebest explanation for why does
somebody stay?
Why could somebody stay for 29years?
You really normalize the abuse.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And that's where the awareness needs to come into
play, and we need to stopnormalizing it, because it's not
normal.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Agreed.
That's an amazing quote.
Thank you for sharing that.
I so appreciate it.
Thank you so much, listeners.
(38:56):
I hope you got so much out oftoday, just like I did.
All the information for me isbook in the show notes, and
these are great conversations toopen up.
And these are greatconversations to open up
(39:29):
especially with youngergenerations that are not as
aware of what can, because Imarried young too, so I can
attest to the fact that we justdidn't know these scenarios, and
even if you're not therecipient of this type of abuse
hopefully you're not However,you can help prevent somebody
that you love from experiencingthese things with the stories
that you hear.
So I hope that's what thispodcast helps you with is to
show you the stories of peoplethat have overcome so many
(39:53):
things, and that it opens upconversations about these
situations so that your lovedones are more informed and aware
of the people that come intotheir lives.
So, mia, thank you again.
Listeners, thank you so much,and I hope you have a wonderful
rest of your day.
(40:13):
Peace out, guys.
Love your life.
Welcome back to the Against All Odds the Less Than
1% Chance podcast with your host, maria Aponte, where we will
hear stories of incrediblepeople thriving against all odds
, and my hope is that we can allsee how life is always
happening for us, even when weare the Less Than 1% Chance.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey, hey, welcome back to Against All Odds, the
Less Than 1% Chance podcast withyour host, maria Aponte.
I hope you're doing fantastictoday.
I am so incredibly honored thatI have this guest on today.
You won't see her face, you'llactually see the cover of her
book.
I am just in awe with what I'velearned so far about her.
(00:43):
I am so incredibly appreciativeof the fact that she's here.
Her name is Mia Hanks.
She's a survivor ofnarcissistic abuse.
She was married to a covertnarcissist for 29 years and has
recently published a memoirtitled Bridemaid a memoir.
She hopes that with her book,she can help other victims find
(01:07):
their voice and speak out aboutnarcissistic abuse.
She's really passionate abouthealing from narcissistic abuse,
gaslighting, coercive control,divorcing a narcissist.
Those are topics that she issuper passionate about and I
know that this is going to serveso many and I have just so much
(01:28):
respect for the strength thatit takes to remove yourself from
this situation.
So, mia, welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Thank you.
Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I'm so excited to have you here.
Do you want to get into alittle bit of your story and
then we'll go into somequestions after that?
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, sure.
So you read my bio.
I was married to a covertnarcissist for 29 years and
finally was able to understandwhat I was going through.
And it took a long time tofigure it out, but once I did I
was able to get away and start anew life.
(02:12):
So it's been a journey, forsure, and I decided I guess I'll
give you a little bit about whyI wrote the book I'm not an
author bit about why I wrote thebook.
I'm not an author, I've neverwritten before.
(02:33):
But when I was going through,when I realized that what was
happening to me was abuse andthat my ex-husband was in fact a
narcissist, I started doing alot of research about narcissism
, and there are a lot of greatbooks out there.
I read lots and lots of them.
The problem I found was thatall of these books were written
generally by a psychologist, atherapist, and they were very
(02:53):
academic.
And what I wanted to find, whatI wanted to read, was someone
who had actually lived this andI just couldn't find anything
out there really.
So I decided, once I had gottenaway and gone through some
therapy and done some healing, Ireally thought there might be a
need for a memoir type of abook from someone's perspective
(03:17):
who had lived these things.
So that's why I wrote it and Ihope that it's helpful to other
people out there that might bein similar situations that where
they're not sure what they'regoing through.
And I include a lot of tips and, for instance, tips on leaving
a narcissist.
That's a very difficult thingto do, so I hope that it's.
(03:40):
I hope that people can benefitfrom the information in there
and, just from my experience, Ihope it can help people.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Can you give some background,because I know that this word is
said a lot more lately, but noteverybody understands what it
is.
So can you give some backgroundon what is narcissistic
personality disorder?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah.
So narcissism is probably anoverused term and really
everyone has some narcissistictraits.
It's just human.
But narcissistic personalitydisorders is a different thing
in that it is a personalitydisorder.
These people, they just theytend to lack empathy.
(04:25):
They are very self-serving,everything is about them and so
they are master manipulators andthey're all about control.
So when you're with anarcissist, it is 100% them 100%
of the time, and you slowlylose yourself to these people.
(04:46):
They will take everything youhave emotionally and they just
don't have any remorse.
It's just, it's about them andno one else.
So everything that they do,seemingly nice, generally has an
agenda behind it.
So it's a hard thing to graspif you haven't lived it.
Most people that have not livedin such a situation can't
(05:08):
believe that those kinds ofthings happen.
And myself I was very young whenI got married.
I was 21.
And I came from a verysheltered background.
No trauma in my past, just avery idyllic childhood.
And I came into this marriagevery naive.
I didn't.
I had never known a narcissist,I had never known anyone with
(05:31):
this level of personalitydisorder, and so I just didn't
think these kinds of peopleexisted.
It just wasn't.
I couldn't wrap my head aroundit.
So I spent the better part ofmy marriage convinced, through
gaslighting and whatnot, thatthe issues were me, it was all
me, it was not him, and sothat's why it took so so long
(05:52):
for me to finally start figuringit out.
Narcissists, they don't getbetter, they tend to get worse
with age.
So you just reach a breakingpoint.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
So again, another word that's being used a lot and
I don't know if people trulyunderstand it.
Can you explain whatgaslighting is?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, so gaslighting it is a word that suddenly
gained a lot of popularity.
Gaslighting is something thatnarcissists will do.
Almost all narcissists use thistactic, and it's basically
where they change the narrativeto make you think that you're
going crazy.
And it actually comes from.
(06:32):
There was a play, and I'm notsure it was a very old play,
maybe from the forties orsomething, and then later it was
a movie, but it was a playcalled Gaslight and it was about
I haven't seen it, but Iunderstand it's about a husband
who tried to make his wife thinkshe was going crazy.
He would dim the gaslights inthe evenings and she would
(06:56):
notice, and then he would tellher no, I didn't do that, you're
losing your mind.
So that's where the termoriginates.
But they'll do things likethey'll say if you're upset
about something they said or did, they'll say, well, it wasn't
that big of a deal, you are justtoo sensitive.
And then you really start tosecond guess yourself and say,
well, maybe it wasn't a big deal, maybe I am crazy, maybe I'm
(07:21):
too sensitive and I'm takingthings too seriously.
And so you start to convinceyourself that, yeah, they're
right, I'm wrong, I must belosing it.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Yeah.
So I have a question or maybejust a kind of a story that so I
have three kids and my youngestis 15 and she got into this
long distance relationship.
He was like three and a halfhours away.
They met via a mutual friend,never met each other, and so
(07:52):
this was always all over thephone and maybe like a month
into them quote unquote dating.
At that time it was like theirone month.
Quote unquote dating.
At that time it was like theirone month.
And he posts on Snapchat likethis huge, like, oh my gosh,
love bombing.
My girlfriend's perfect, I loveher so much, she's beautiful.
(08:15):
This huge, huge paragraph abouthow much he loves his most
perfect girlfriend.
And then she posts somethingnot as long, it was like maybe
less of a paragraph than what hehad.
And I caught her with her aphone when she was not supposed
(08:38):
to have it, because I take theirphones overnight.
I saw the messages and he wasbasically telling her what is
that?
It is that all you're posting,is that all oh?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
and I was like oh, my god, like I was
hyperventilating is.
I was like, oh my god, I seethis is like a start of a really
horrible life if this is whatshe's allowing to happen.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And I again, she's 15 .
So I had to be there and I havetwo older ones, so I just had
to be very careful of how I saidthings.
And she was still asleep and soI took the phone.
So she knew that I had thephone and I didn't give her
phone, and so when she wakes upin the morning, I had already
(09:25):
meditated, I worked out, I waslike I need to get my head in
straight so that I can approachthis so that she doesn't feel
attacked.
I was on our way to anappointment with her and I was
like so obviously, that I foundthis like old phone that we had.
And she's like, yeah, I figured, old phone that we had.
(09:48):
And she's like, yeah, I figured, and.
And so I was like so I lookedthrough your messages and I saw
this conversation happening, andI'm not here to tell you
whether or not you should bewith him, or that's your choice,
right?
But, my job as your mom is tomake you aware of things that I
need you to be aware of.
So his post for your onemonth-aversary was so beautiful,
(10:17):
super sweet, very loving, andthat's amazing.
And then he was telling youthat you were not enough.
So he was telling you that youwere not enough.
So he was telling you that youwere perfect in the post and
that you were amazing and allthe things, and then telling you
that you didn't do enough andmaking you feel bad for not
(10:37):
posting as much as he did.
And and I just want to tell you, my love, that that is a
combination of love, bombing andgaslighting.
And I need you to be very awarethat I don't know this kid.
He's 14, 15 years old.
I don't know how he was broughtup, so I can't tell you what he
(11:01):
is accustomed to.
However, that is not okay.
That is the start of a veryabusive relationship and I
really need you to be aware ofthat.
And she stayed quiet,thankfully, that same day later
in the afternoon, she had atherapy appointment and I'm so
(11:22):
incredibly grateful that thingshappened the way they did, but
she went in there.
Yeah, it was perfect.
It was so perfect.
I truly feel like everythingthat happens always tends to
like fall into place somehow oranother.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
And so it was this big coincidence that she did.
And when she got out of therapyshe was.
She was like, well, mom, I haveto have three conversations.
I was like, OK, and she waslike, well, mom, I have to have
three conversations.
I was like, OK, and she's likethe first one is with you.
I'm so sorry that I took thatold phone.
I I will accept theconsequences to that because I
know that was wrong, because wehad a whole conversation about
(12:00):
that.
The second is with herboyfriend and she said I do
realize that's what he was doingand I do realize that I felt
horrible about myself and that Ireally need to work on me.
I need to let him know that heneeds to work on whatever is
(12:21):
happening with him, and if hewants to work on it as a couple,
that's fine.
But I need to work on me andloving me more and I was like,
oh my God, what is happening?
This?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
is awesome, that is awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
And then so she had this conversation with him and
they ended up breaking up like amonth later, which is what
needed to happen anyways, but Iwasn't going to be the one to
tell her that, because I was ateenager too, and I would have
been like, oh no, you told me,no, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do
it.
Yeah, so, and then the thirdconversation was one with my
(12:55):
boyfriend, which is we've beentogether for five years, so her
stepdad and how she's justappreciative of the role that he
plays in her life and that shecan talk to him about everything
and really feels grateful forthat.
So it was just an awesomesituation all around and
hopefully with that she is nowmore equipped to see those signs
(13:19):
, and that's the problem.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Most people are not.
Yeah, they don't.
Um, they would see somethinglike what you just described and
really not think that much ofit.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, I feel bad, but it's not that big of a deal and
that's just the start.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Maybe he's right, Maybe I didn't post as much.
And how can you be told thatyou're perfect and amazing and
beautiful and then you're notenough?
Like what?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Just, oh my gosh, I saw that and I was like, oh my
God, I'm here in my officereading these messages and I'm
like, oh my God, okay, I need togo meditate, I need to calm
down before I go in there, andlike guns blazing.
And I was like, okay, I need tocalm down.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
And I did, and it was the way like myself five years
ago, when my oldest was 15,would have been totally a
different scenario.
So I feel like I'm gratefulthat I've grown as a parent, but
what you were describing I waslike, oh my God, that was my
(14:29):
like scary.
Oh goodness, don't start thisso early.
Let's get this, let's get thisaware.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
It starts so slow and so, quote, unquote, innocent,
yeah.
And then, before you know it,you're in the thick of it, and
then you're stuck, you're stuck.
Basically, so the moregaslighting and the more control
that's heaped on you, the morestuck you feel and you just
don't think you can get out.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, so what do you think are the reasons that many
victims stay with their abusersfor so long?
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I think a lot of victims really are convinced
that they are the problem andthat if they will change, if
they will work on themselves,then they can make the
relationship work, becausethat's how you're conditioned to
believe.
And another reason that I thinkvictims stay is, well, a couple
.
Another reason is out of fear.
(15:23):
They just don't want to knowwhat the alternative, what the
consequences could be to themleaving, and so, out of fear,
it's just, it seems, the safestthing to do.
But another reason people stayis another thing that
narcissists do is financialabuse.
So in a lot of theserelationships, the narcissist is
(15:45):
controlling all the money.
Yeah, so even if you're in ahigh socioeconomic tier, it
really doesn't matter, becauseif you can't access that money,
if you can't, I had my husband,had all these accounts and he
had a credit card and all thesecards and such.
All I had access to was justthe day-to-day checking account.
(16:06):
I had a debit card and allthese cards and such I all I had
access to was just theday-to-day checking account.
I had a debit card and that wasit.
And so, fortunately, I had myparents and they are the ones
that ultimately helped me getout.
But if I hadn't had them.
I had no funds to like.
I could have gone in and gottena hotel for a couple of nights,
but I had no funds or resourcesto say, go get an apartment.
(16:30):
I wouldn't have been able to dothat.
I'm living in this beautiful,big home behind gates and yet I
had no resources to even go getmyself an apartment.
So how did it have been for myparents being able to help me?
My only option, again being inthis big, beautiful home, would
(16:52):
have been to go to a shelter.
Yeah that would have been myonly option, and so I think a
lot of women are in thatsituation and that is their only
option.
They can stay where they are,they can go to a shelter.
So there's just there are not alot of good options.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Yeah, I agree, there's it's.
I have a friend of mine thathad to escape a very abusive
relationship and with two kidsin a shelter, it was just hard.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, and I think most people just don't want to
go that route and most assuredly, when you leave a narcissist,
the first thing they're going todo is cut off any funding
they're going to during the bankaccount which was my experience
29 years of marriage and Ididn't even have he kept the
bank account so low that Icouldn't even buy groceries.
(17:42):
So they can get revengeful andit is a scary time.
It is scary.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, I bet.
So what are the?
Obviously there's financialchallenges in leaving a
narcissist, but are there anyother things that that they
tried to put in your way asobstacles.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, in my situation I dealt with a lot of guilt,
and a lot of that was from allof the gaslighting.
It took me a long time tounderstand that he was the one
that had the issues.
I was still second guessingmyself and he knew that.
So he tried to make amends andwhatnot.
They weren't sincere, butnonetheless he tried because he
(18:24):
knew he could play on that guiltfactor.
So they do that.
And then the other thing thatthey do and my ex-husband did
this is they will start going toyour friends and your family
and saying she's on hinge, she'shaving a midlife crisis, you've
got to talk to her, make hercome back.
She's just going crazy, andreally what they're doing is
(18:45):
damage control just going crazy.
And really what they're doingis damage control.
They're getting out there toeverybody they can, as fast as
they can, to let people thinkthat that you were the problem,
that you're having thisbreakdown and that's why you
left, because they can't havetheir image tarnish.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yes, my ex-husband did that and I think it's a very
common tactic.
It's a race to see who can getto the most people the fastest
and if they can get their storyout there and make you look
ridiculous a case that'shappening currently with a lady
that her husband was a pastor.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Is a pastor, was a pastor yes, I'm familiar with
this.
I've seen this as well, that hespeaks to the whole church, yes
(19:46):
About her mental state and like, oh my gosh, yeah, can it be
any more evident?
That's exactly what he is Isthat like exactly it's been.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
It's been all over social media and people are
reacting to it.
It's scary.
It is so scary how sure theyare that they are right.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's just , it makes me very having
daughters particularly.
I know that this isn't just awoman thing, but having
daughters it.
It terrifies me, especiallyhaving gone through just a
situation with a 15-year-old,and I'm very vocal and I love
(20:35):
that you were able to put yourstory in a book for people to be
able to experience, even yourwords, what you experience,
because I feel like like thesearen't things that normally are
(20:56):
talked about, and had ourparents been more aware of this,
these situations and vocalize.
I'm very open with my kids.
I talk to them about absolutelyeverything experiences that
I've gone through and everything, because I remember having gone
through some experiences as ateenager that I didn't feel I
(21:19):
could talk to my parents about,and and and I want the exact
opposite of that for my kids.
I want them to come to me aboutabsolutely everything, and so
these stories are so importantwhich, honestly, I'm going to
get your book and I'm going toread it so that I can have that
(21:41):
in my back pocket for mydaughter to be able to read or
at least listen to the story.
I gauge what I'm obviouslytelling each of the kids, but
and this is like so importantbecause it fuels awareness it.
It feeds that awareness to somany people and I I truly like
(22:04):
hope that all people like readthis and are aware of the signs,
because it's so scary.
My sister was in an abusiverelationship very narcissistic
as well, but it was physicalabuse as well, and so I remember
feeling the like powerlessfeeling of I.
(22:26):
She completely closed us offbecause she knew that as soon as
I found out, or anybody foundout what was happening, like it
would have been embarrassing tothe victim.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
That's another factor , and in my situation, no one
knew what was really going onbecause it's embarrassing.
And that's one thing that Istruggled with when I decided to
write my book was this isembarrassing.
And the therapist that I wasseeing said no, it's not
embarrassing.
And I said but it is.
To me it's embarrassing toadmit that I put up with this
(23:05):
for as long as I did and that Ilived this way for so long.
And you get into this groovewhere you don't want people to
know.
So you do tend to shut down andclose people off because you
don't want them to know what'sreally happening.
So and that's another reasonwhy I think people end up
staying in these relationships,it's just the embarrassment
(23:27):
factor.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I think people end up staying in these relationships.
It's just the embarrassmentfactor.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely cansee that.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
So what are the challenges in divorcing a
narcissist?
Well, they're very vindictiveand they don't.
They, you know, they're notpeople that can handle the word
no.
So right away, when you leave anarcissist, that is a huge blow
to their ego.
They are going to try to getrevenge.
So in my situation, when I leftmy ex-husband, like I said, he
(23:58):
tried to drain the bank accounts, make it to where I couldn't
even buy groceries.
They have no, they'rerelentless.
They just they don't care howmuch they hurt you at that point
, because you are no longer asupply to them.
They don't, they can't own youanymore.
So it's the anything they haveto do to hurt you.
They will.
(24:18):
But yeah, the divorce process,just doing things like drawing
the process out as long as theycan.
One thing he thought he coulddo is just wear me down.
When we went to our divorcemediation.
We were there for 10 hours.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Oh my gosh 10 hours.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So he just thought the longer he could hold out and
the longer he could fight, hewas waiting for me to give up,
just give in.
And so that's what they'll do.
They'll just try to wear youdown to the point that you say
I'm tired, I just want out.
You just take everything, Ijust want out and I don't want
to fight anymore.
So they're just relentless.
(24:58):
And that's the biggestchallenge in divorcing them.
And then the weird thing isthey don't care because they
don't have that empathy in anormal divorce with normal
neurotypical people.
Generally, I would think thehusband would want to make sure
that it's on some level themother of his children was being
(25:19):
taken care of, but not with anarcissist.
They don't care if they couldleave you homeless, living under
the freeway, they would beproud of themselves.
So that's the biggest challenge.
They literally do not care, andonce you've left, that's it.
They're done with you and theydon't care what they have to do
to hurt you.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's really tough because you have
these like expectations ofpeople that they can't even
fulfill and it's so hard toprocess the why are you, why
were you doing this?
(25:59):
Yeah it, yeah.
It's really really hard becausethen they also don't take into
account, like, how this ishurting our children or right
our family, and to see that thisis their parent, and it blows
my mind.
I wholeheartedly believe thatjust people that I'm close to
(26:22):
have been married to narcissistsand it is very frustrating,
even watching it happen, thatyou're like who is this person?
What are they thinking?
Why are they talking to theirkids about their parents that
way, like just, and everythingthat you're saying is like oh my
(26:44):
gosh, yeah, yeah, check, check,check, oh wow, this is it just
blows my mind, it's crazy howthey're all so much alike.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
It's almost like they have this playbook that they
all follow.
It's just down to like theweird things that they do.
That I thought was just myex-husband, and the more
research and reading I did andtalking to people, I realized
these little quirks.
It's typical of narcissists.
For example, sleep deprivation.
They like to use sleepdeprivation.
(27:13):
They like to keep you sleepdeprived so that you are in a
fog and when you're tired andworn down you're easier to
control.
Yeah, oh, my gosh, Somethingwith my ex-husband, but in fact
I've heard so many people talkabout that.
My narcissistic husband won'tlet me sleep or they keep waking
me up on purpose so that I'mtired all day.
(27:35):
So it's just weird littlequirky things like that that
they all do and it's very odd.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Wow, that's so interesting.
But that makes sense because,yeah, absolutely, you're way
easier to control when you'rejust so exhausted.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yes, and then, of course, that leads to health
issues I experienced in the last, probably two years of my
marriage.
I was experiencing chronic pain, headaches, stomach aches.
I felt nauseous all the timeand I was just over tired, just
so, so fatigued, all the time.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah, Isn't it?
And I say this from my ownexperience.
But isn't it crazy how whenyour body is in dis-ease, it
creates this disease and whenyou heal that dis-ease,
everything kind of falls backinto place.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, I was about two weeks after I officially moved
out.
It was amazing how different Ifelt.
I wasn't experiencing so muchpain and I realized so much of
how I was feeling was because Iwas under so much stress.
You live in this fight orflight mode all the time.
It's just not.
(28:53):
It's just not good.
It really does impact yourhealth in ways that you can't
see.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
So that's, if for no other reason to leave, do it for
your health.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, I agree.
I wholeheartedly believe that.
So do you believe that anarcissist can ever change?
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Unfortunately I don't .
I hate to sound so like a doomand gloom, but I just don't
think so.
Npd is.
It is a personality disorderand there's not a cure.
And the problem is you can goto therapy with a narcissist all
day long.
It does not do any good.
I did that, in fact, with myex-husband.
(29:35):
We went to two differentmarriage therapists.
It doesn't work.
Narcissists love to go totherapy because they can prove
it.
Yeah, they charm the therapistand it's then they get the
therapist on their side If it'san unexperienced therapist.
Now we ultimately ended up witha really good therapist who had
(29:55):
a lot of experience, and afterabout the eighth session she
actually kicked him out oftherapy, which was I didn't
think therapists did that, butshe actually told him.
She said she said I can't helpyou.
Did that, but she actually toldhim.
She said she said I can't helpyou.
She said you're not self-aware.
And she said you are notwilling or able to see things
from other people's perspectives.
(30:17):
And for that reason she said Iknow amount of therapy is going
to help you.
And she literally told him Iwish you luck, don't come back.
So no, I don't think that theycan get better.
There might be a fraction of apercentage of narcissists that
decide they want to becomeself-aware.
That's just not the nature oftheir personality, so I only see
(30:40):
that they get worse.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And my ex-husband.
He just got progressively worseand worse and worse, more
insidious, just mean.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, because they also have more time to continue
to like cause.
They're very convinced of theirstory, so they have more time
to just like fester on thatstory, and I could see that.
I could definitely see that.
So what limiting beliefs orroadblocks did you have to
(31:14):
overcome in order to get towhere you are today?
And then, which ones are you,which ones do you love?
Like helping other people workthrough themselves?
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Well, for me, the biggest roadblock, the biggest
issue that I had after I leftand just dealing with the
healing side of it, was theguilt I felt guilty for leaving
and I told the therapist I wasseeing, which I think therapy
was a big help for me.
I told her, I said I keptsaying I've ruined his life
(31:47):
because when I left it did turnhis world upside down.
And she said no, he tried toruin your life.
So I had to turn that aroundand realize that no, I didn't.
It made life inconvenient forhim for a while going through
this messy divorce.
It was a very hostile divorcebut it didn't ruin his life.
(32:10):
So it took time for me torealize that.
The other thing that I feltguilty about was I kept saying
every day wasn't bad.
So how do I know that I did theright thing by leaving?
Because there were good days,we did have good times and I was
talking to a friend about thisand my friend said this isn't a
(32:32):
math problem.
One good day does not cancelout a bad day.
And then the best kind ofadvice that I was given was
there are not enough good daysin the world to make up for one
day of trauma that he put youthrough and that was a huge,
(32:53):
eye-opening statement.
Yeah, it really did.
The guilt that I wasexperiencing just vanished at
that point and that justreplayed in my head.
If just one day of trauma, oneday of trauma, is too much, yeah
.
So if we have 364 good days andone horrible day of trauma,
(33:16):
that's too much.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
That guilt was the biggest factor for me.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, I could see that and we tend to attach
ourselves to the good times.
We tend to attach ourselves tothe good times, yes, and, but it
was so good and I was so inlove, or it's so sad.
That's what we do and we likedon't see the, don't see those
(33:43):
really tough days, or that.
Or you don't want to rememberthe heartbreak and you sobbing
in your room or whatever.
You learn to block it out.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
You just block it out and the next day is a good day.
So you move on.
And another thing narcissistswill do they call it
breadcrumbing.
So when they think they'vepushed you maybe a little bit
too far, they reel you back inby the.
They might buy you a gift, theymight take you out to a nice
dinner, they might be reallynice for about a week.
(34:14):
And then that sort of you startto forget well, that was really
bad, but look at these nicethings he did, and you focus on
the good and you suppress thebad.
And yeah, that's another reasonthat I think people end up
staying.
It's just this give and take.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Yeah, and they continue to hold on to the good
days.
Yes, so that's such a cycle,and it's scary that I feel like
they do it even unconsciously.
They don't even realize thatthis is the type of human you're
being and just programmed thatway, yeah.
(34:53):
Yeah, I'm so incredibly happythat you got out, because no one
deserves to live that way and Iagree, I think that therapy is
the seriously.
I think everybody in the worldneeds to find a good therapist.
Yeah, yeah, we would be muchhappier people and more healed
(35:15):
people, because it is so hard tonavigate sometimes and when you
have a third party perspectivethat can guide you in a way that
is that kind of makes you digin deep, because they typically
do, and that's why we don't dothe work on our own is because
(35:38):
that dig deep moment is so hardto yeah, it's easier just to
suppress it yeah.
And unfortunately, when we dosuppress, it just eats away at
us even more so it really does.
Oh, my goodness, so I can't waitto read your book.
I am very excited for ourlisteners to listen to this
(36:01):
episode.
I think it just opened up a lotof conversations and I truly
hope that your story.
I think it's such a blessing tosee how life is happening for
you and not to you, right, soyou could look at it as I'm the
victim of this, or you could say, okay, I experienced this and
(36:23):
what purpose can I find from it?
And I think that this book issuch a beautiful purpose.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
I hope so.
You were talking earlier about.
I think one of the biggestquestions that victims will get
asked is why do you stay so long?
And that's one thing that is.
It's very interesting and Ithink there are a lot of answers
like I talked about, but in mybook I put a quote in.
There are a lot of answers likeI talked about, but in my book
(36:51):
I put a quote in and I thinkit's the best explanation for
the best answer for thatquestion, and it's a quote I
found online and it's actuallyby Stephen King, the author and
I.
My understanding is if this issomething that he said during an
interview.
I haven't seen the interview,but I thought the quote was just
.
It really sums it up, so it'sjust a short little paragraph so
(37:13):
I can.
I share it.
Yeah, absolutely Okay.
There's a phrase the elephant inthe living room which purports
to describe what it's like tolive with a drug addict, an
alcoholic and ab.
People outside suchrelationships will sometimes ask
how could you let such abusiness go on for so many years
?
Didn't you see the elephant inthe living room?
(37:35):
And it's so hard for anyoneliving in a more normal
situation to understand theanswer that comes closest to the
truth.
I'm sorry, but it was therewhen I moved in.
I didn't know it was anelephant, I thought it was part
of the furniture.
There comes an aha moment forsome folks the lucky ones when
they suddenly recognize thedifference.
So I think that's a goodexplanation, for, like, I
(37:59):
married very young and I lovethe part where it says I thought
it was part of the furniture.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I thought this was how it was part of the furniture
.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
I thought this was, this was how it was supposed to
be.
I thought this was normal andas time went on, I made it my
normal.
Yeah, I normalized the abuse.
So I think that's probably thebest explanation for why does
somebody stay?
Why could somebody stay for 29years?
You really normalize the abuse.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
And that's where the awareness needs to come into
play, and we need to stopnormalizing it, because it's not
normal.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Agreed.
That's an amazing quote.
Thank you for sharing that.
I so appreciate it.
Thank you so much, listeners.
(38:56):
I hope you got so much out oftoday, just like I did.
All the information for me isbook in the show notes, and
these are great conversations toopen up.
And these are greatconversations to open up
(39:29):
especially with youngergenerations that are not as
aware of what can, because Imarried young too, so I can
attest to the fact that we justdidn't know these scenarios, and
even if you're not therecipient of this type of abuse
hopefully you're not However,you can help prevent somebody
that you love from experiencingthese things with the stories
that you hear.
So I hope that's what thispodcast helps you with is to
show you the stories of peoplethat have overcome so many
(39:53):
things, and that it opens upconversations about these
situations so that your lovedones are more informed and aware
of the people that come intotheir lives.
So, mia, thank you again.
Listeners, thank you so much,and I hope you have a wonderful
rest of your day.
(40:13):
Peace out, guys.
Love your life.
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