June 18, 2025 • 55 mins
The mental game might be the biggest edge in sports, business, and beyond.
Dr. Brook Choulet, founder of Choulet Performance Psychiatry, shares how top performers—from NFL players to physicians and CEOs—stay sharp under pressure. It’s not just about working harder. It’s about smart routines, mental health habits, and building a “perfect week” that supports success.
We dive into real tools for avoiding burnout, boosting focus, and improving sleep, plus how different types of athletes face unique mental challenges (and how that mirrors business leadership).
Whether you're leading a team or chasing a personal goal, this episode offers practical ways to level up your mindset and protect your mental edge for the long haul.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I'm Dr Rob, and this week we have the pleasure of
hosting Brooke Shulay, who runsShulay Performance Psychiatry,
based in Paradise Valley inBeverly Hills.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thanks so much for having me today.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Great to have you.
So today we're going to talkabout all things with the mental
state, especially like withhigh performers, which also can
equal high stress.
So what kind of people are yourclientele?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, so I mostly see 40% athletes, 40% executives,
working professionals,physicians, and then 20% all
their kids.
So I do see kids to ages fiveplus.
But I love working withexecutives and physicians that
own practices.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
That's kind of my bread and butter nice, and are
the kids all related to yourclients that you have a lot of
times?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
or the parents will be high performers and their
kids are the 4.0 students thatare upset.
They don't have the 4.2, orathletes, so youth athletes are
a big one I see trying tobalance high school and then
their club, whether it's clubsoccer, club, basketball, so a
lot of kind of sports overlapthere.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
With the NFL draft this past weekend.
Did you have like anything todo with, like, do you see any of
those people that go into thedraft?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
yeah, so I.
I'm a listed provider on thenfl player association's mental
health directory, so if there'sany player that needs services
in a state that I'm licensed in,the pa will contact me.
So it could be anyone fromrookies all the way to people
currently playing to retiredplayers and physician burnout's
(02:05):
just been a bigger thing, youknow, and it's become bigger and
bigger.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
And I've tried to partake in different, you know,
because like the first fiveyears I was in practice, I was
pretty much doing it on my own.
And you get into that state andkind of don't know and you
start having more complicationsand issues like that so are are
you seeing more physicianscoming to you or you know,
(02:31):
because it's kind of like lookeddown upon so not.
Not enough people go and seeseek therapy for something like
this or.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
But when you see it, is it like later in progression
than like when normal personwould come see you.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, oftentimes, like physicians are the worst
patients, right, we try andtreat ourselves until things get
really bad, and so we're allkind of lucky that we own our
own businesses and we kind ofhave somewhat of a say in our
day to day practice.
But a lot of the physicians Isee with significant like
clinically significant burnoutare hospital employed or or like
(03:07):
corporate medicine employed,even an outpatient, and in those
types of environments there's alarge sense of a lack of
control, right?
So like the owner tells me howmany patients I need to see, or
the insurance company dictatespatient appointment duration,
company dictates patientduration or appointment duration
(03:27):
, and so a lot of times we talkabout how can you modify certain
things that are within yourcontrol to make your working
environment better so yourbusiness is going to pick up
even more because private equityis just taking over the life
out of everyone taking well wewe
Speaker 1 (03:41):
know, can we fund you to scale your business is what
we're trying to ask.
This is definitely going to bea hot topic.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, because, like yeah, like day by day.
Well, I get texts, emails likefrom few companies to buy our
practice and I know like morethan half dozen physicians that
have, or plastic surgeons thathave already turned to private
equity.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
High-end people too.
Yeah, Like high-end.
I was just like shocked to hearthe names that have already
sold out.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
And so like that's where I'm thinking, I'm like,
and from them taking over thederm practices, like I heard a
lot of dissatisfaction in thephysicians, so this is probably
a good I'm guessing that comesfrom private equity requiring
dermatologists to do work.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah maybe and not just the.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
NPs.
They need to carry their ownslack.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I think that's the tough part is we're all used
to being our own bosses andmaking business decisions.
So then, when you have someoneelse that comes in with, at
first, an appealing offer andyou might be tempted to take the
money.
Well, a lot of times they havea certain amount of time you
have to stay.
And then during that period oftime, people can be really
unhappy and feeling like they'rebeing overworked and underpaid.
(04:59):
So it's such a trade-off interms of what you want your life
to look like.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, so do you see an age discrepancy or the amount
of time they've been in theprofession?
Obviously the senior people.
In a practice.
When you sell out to privateequity, you have two years,
maybe three years, obligation,where the junior people have
about five years or so On top ofthat.
(05:27):
The junior partners also notjust for private equity, for
just being becoming employedphysicians.
Like you thought you'd have allthis autonomy and you went
through all this training andgot all this shit all these
years to like go out on your ownand then be like oh wait, I
have a whole nother set ofbosses and a whole nother set of
people to answer to.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's risky for private equity
to come in and expect thateveryone's going to stay.
I've seen it in my own patients, I've seen it in the community,
as I'm sure you have, thatprivate equity comes in and then
the people that aren't bound tostaying there that were the
employees and not an owner ofthe practice they want out
because it's just not the same.
And so to me, and I'm sure foryou guys too, keeping physicians
(06:11):
happy is a huge thing that Itake seriously.
So really enabling likephysician autonomy and allowing
them to feel like they'rerunning their own solo practice
within our group, that stuff, Ithink, breeds kind of loyalty
and longevity in a business.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And what sorts of like you know information do you
give to physicians and how canthey help themselves when they
you know, outside?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
of being in your practice.
Yeah Well, it's reallyclinically significant.
I go through what's called theMaslow Burnout Inventory.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So there's kind of like a questionnaire you can go
through.
Is there a pyramid Maslow?
No, it's more just questionslike how I'm thinking of the
food pyramid.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
It's questions about like how much empathy do you
still have towards your patients, how drained do you feel after
a day?
Connectedness to your job, andcaring and compassion.
So you can.
There's three differentcategories and you can actually
go through and put an objectivenumber, which I like to do,
because sometimes people they'relike oh, I'm not sure if it's
burnout, I just I'm unhappy.
(07:17):
And then you go through thatscale and it's like very
clinically significant, and thenwe can get into a good
discussion of well, how can youstart to make some changes.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I know I was feeling burnt out about like a year and
a half in Like I was reallyhappy with like my patient care
outcomes and everything.
But I was working like 100 to120 hours a week and I was not
getting the reimbursements.
Like I was just like this is,this is not worth it.
And I know for a few months ina row I was just fresh in my
(07:53):
practice technically right, lessthan two years and I'm like
what's going to be my fastestroute to retirement?
Because if I got to work extrahard to hit that, I'm down to do
it and get out of here andthere's something like I don't
know I got to work extra hard tohit that I'm down to do it and
get out of here and there'ssomething like I don't know I
had to do extra years to gethere.
So I spent like 10 years oftraining after med school to be
(08:14):
where I was and then within likea year and a half, I'm like I
got to get out of here.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and oftentimes as a business owner, you're also
doing all the other things inthe beginning right, like PR and
HR and all those things pluspatient care.
It can be really unsustainablequickly, and so one big tool I
give to people Dan Martell wrotethis book called Buy Back your
Time, and in that book it talksabout creating your perfect week
(08:40):
, and so that is one of thedownfalls of what we do right Is
that we don't have a setschedule because we're our own
bosses, and so it talks aboutactually creating a set schedule
where Monday, wednesday, friday, let's say like gym, from eight
to 930.
And you actually block off yourown time, and I found that
that's like the biggestprotective factor against
(09:01):
burnout is actually blockingyour time to make sure you're
still allocating time to thingsthat you enjoy doing too.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, and that's that's what I've tried to get
him to do is like I'm like planout your vacations, take those
weeks out ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And then he tells me I'm taking too much time off.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Well, my, my wife gets like eight weeks a year off
.
So we we know, like know likeshe works for a bigger company
but like she does a lot of thestuff in the office.
So we automatically know we'reand I'm like no, we're going
away and just like mentally andeverything I think it prepares
us and you just got to leave thestuff behind.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Schedule it Like that period where I was feeling
burnt out, like that's the lasttime I was like I can definitely
say I was dissatisfied withwhat I was doing.
And since then there werecertain things I did.
First thing, I finally startedgetting reimbursed, which was
nice.
Uh, that alleviated some stress.
(10:00):
At that point I was working,like no joke, 80 to 120 hours a
week, which sounds ridiculous.
But on top of that I went likenine to ten months without any
time off, more than like anextended weekend.
So since then, like I made sureto look at my daughter's
(10:22):
schedule so I'm like at the veryleast I can take four weeks off
like fall break, winter break,spring break, and over the
summer I've gradually likeactually extended it to be like
you know what I can squeeze in acouple days here and there.
So like it probably works outto like five to six weeks off a
(10:42):
year and that's where I see thegood balance probably works out
to like five to six weeks off ayear, and that's where I see the
good balance.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
What are your like?
Do you recommend lifestylechanges that people should make
when they come and see you?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
yeah, some lifestyle changes just include intentional
movement.
So sometimes people like yousaid, when you're working those
80 to 120 hour weeks, you don'tnecessarily have an hour five
times a week to go to the gym.
It's just not feasible.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I wasn't working out at all.
I was in the worst shape of mylife.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, and it's not sustainable, right.
So, like for me, for example, Ischedule my appointments in 50
minute increments so I can have10 minutes between visits to
like get up, walk outside in thecourtyard of our office,
building things like that, soit's at least moving and getting
out.
Maybe I'll call someone.
So I'm killing two birds withone stone, and just different
things like that.
(11:30):
So asking yourself what bringsyou joy, like for some people
it's working out, for somepeople that feels like an
obligation for some people it'ssocial connection and so
actually building in that timewhere vacation's great to start
with that and building in thattime, but you have to create
something sustainable weekly.
So, like every Thursdayafternoon is just my me time,
(11:52):
where if I need to schedule likedoctor's appointments or a
haircut or whatever it is, everyThursday afternoon is blocked
off just for that, for whateverI need to do for me, for
whatever I need to do for me.
And I find that when peoplestart to carve out that time
where if you imagine like a redsolo cup and you're slowly
draining energy and lookingthroughout the week.
What are you doing to actuallyreplenish that or refill
(12:14):
yourself?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It seems so hard for me.
For me it's like block out time, what do you mean?
Like it's just been difficult,like that's why, like my
daughter's school schedule hasworked well for me, cause I'm
like I can definitely block thistime out and do it like a year,
two years in advance, but likewhen it comes out to like oh,
(12:37):
maybe like three months, Ialmost feel guilty doing it.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I promise you you can do it Like if you, if you start
from scratch, like let's sayquarter two or quarter three,
and you actually redo yourentire calendar where, let's say
, you are only available between8am and 2pm every day and
that's it.
Well then, how do you build inthat time?
It actually can make you moreproductive and more high
performing because you're moreconcentrated, and I had a few
(13:04):
executives come to me that wereworking like 80 hour weeks and
they felt like their scheduleswere controlling them.
And as soon as we implemented areally regimented schedule, as
if they were employed but,dictating how their time spent.
They're like holy shit, likethis works I feel so much better
and this is sustainable.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I think if you journal document or just just
like with eating food, like onceyou journal what you're eating,
you you know then you noticewhat like?
You're like oh, I'm putting allthese extra calories that don't
matter.
And if you're journaling like,you know journal how much time
you spent on your phone.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Like that time could have been spent.
Your phone does that for you?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, it does, it does, but like there's a lot of
stuff that you waste your timeon that you don't need to be
wasting you know, and it'sbuilding routines and like,
especially like in the mornings,like I have my routines,
although, like sometimes thekids but I try to stick with
those routines.
You know, like in the wintertimeI cold plunge in the pool, I do
(14:09):
my workouts before they evenwake up and like try to get
those stuff done right away.
Now it's like you know I Idon't do the workouts in the
morning, the kids are sleepingand I just try to do the
workouts at nighttime.
The kids just join in andworking out.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
That's huge, though.
A lot of the most elite topathletes have such regimented
routine and discipline, and it'sdifferent for every one of them
.
But just that ability topredict what's coming in your
schedule sets you up for feelingmore relaxed, less tense and
higher performance overall thatfits into what you were saying.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
like if you can predict and set in that time for
yourself also goes with thescreen time thing so like if, if
you can predict, set up like,let's say, like a wednesday or
thursday afternoon for yourselfto whatever get a massage, go,
get an intense workout in sauna,cold plunge, and that'll just
(15:07):
make all the hours for the restof your week way more like
enhanced productive, so you canjust like even at nighttime,
like I gotta put my son to sleep, but I put out my red light mat
lay on the mat while I put himto sleep and, and you know, at
least I didn't waste my timedoing that I don't think that's
considered wasting your time.
(15:28):
It's productive, no, but likeit's productive Like then.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I don't have to take another like 20 minutes, half an
hour to lay on the red lightafter I put him to sleep,
because he's like moving arounddrinking his milk until he goes
to sleep, so it's like yeah, andit's all about what works for
you and it's different for everyperson.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
There's some athletes I worked with that.
Before every game they would godrive through Starbucks.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
No, I'm kidding, and that was like their routine,
right?
Because?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
if you think about it , that's mindfulness.
You're sitting waiting in line.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Oh yeah, some people eat like gummy bears and stuff
before games, stuff before games.
So it's like everybody's like,oh, why are they doing that?
It's like, oh, randy mossdoesn't stretch.
Before games, like have youseen that guy play a game?
Like I don't know where you'recoming, coming off telling them
what to do but you bring up areally good point before too.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Um, I always tell people to do a task audit is
what I call it and then thatbrings up how to buy back your
time, which is throughdelegation.
So if you're realizing like, oh, I don't know, maybe you
realize, over the last week youspent an hour paying various
bills in the practice, well,that's something that takes a
low, low skill right and you'relow passion to do that.
(16:41):
So that's something that youwould delegate.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, and that's you know, and getting my
wife to kind of because shemicromanages a lot of things and
like getting her to trustsomeone to like delegate that
stuff out, and she's gottenbetter and better at it.
But like, yeah, that, yeah,Like it does.
At times she's like she's likeI got 400 emails to read or
(17:03):
thousand emails to read and I'mlike, just take it one step at a
time.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Just delete all of them.
Yeah, start fresh.
If it's important, they'llemail you back, they'll email
you back.
Or if they're good salespeople,they'll email you right back.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, my biggest email hack is the two-minute
rule, which is, if it takes youless than two minutes to do,
just knock it out and then filethe email away.
Yeah, and a lot of people theyfeel like they just get so
overwhelmed with emails thatthey just can't.
Even so, you have differentemail files, though yeah, so
every so I do I go through thisexercise with executives too, or
(17:36):
practice owners is uh, creatingsubfolders yeah like
psychotically organized uh, solike locations of your practices
and then, within that website,marketing insurance, like all
the things, so that when youhire an executive assistant
again to buy back your own timeand delegate, they will be able
to follow your organizationalsystem too.
(17:57):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
And look, even with athletes.
I know athletes, they'retraveling all the time and
they're not around people, butthey're around.
You know, sometimes they feellike it's a family, as a team.
Sometimes it's a broken family.
But do you do anyrecommendations with, like you
know, like finding someone thatthey find and that supports them
(18:21):
?
That's going to be importantand how they think
psychiatrically.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, I think a lot of them luckily come into the
league with that, so eithertheir college coach or their
high school coach or some mentorsomeone this was public.
I recently did an interviewwith DeMar DeRozan on the Kings
and he talked about theimportance of his community and
how that for him has beencoaches, teammates and just
(18:45):
having those people to go towhen things get hard, whether
it's on court stuff or off courtstuff.
So having that community ishuge and it doesn't have to be a
mental health professional ifthings are otherwise going well
it's.
It's just important foreveryone to feel supported in
some way.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And then do you discuss sleep with the athletes
at all?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yes, so there is a study I love to quote from.
I think it came out of Stanford, but they looked at 120-some
athletes that got less thaneight hours of sleep a night and
those athletes were at 65%increased risk of injury.
And so when?
it's huge and so when I havehigh schoolers that are like, oh
well.
Or college students oh, I hadto stay up late to study for the
(19:28):
test, or I stayed up latewatching film so I could be
prepared for the next game Ireframe for them sleep as a
performance strategy.
So sleep is when your kind ofmind is consolidating memory and
recovering physically in orderfor you to have improved
cognitive and physicalperformance.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Significant growth hormone release too.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
One thing that laid on me was like if you're not
getting that deep sleep, likethat trash just stays in your
brain and your brain doesn'tclear that out.
So you wake up the next morningand you still got these bad
thoughts and bad feelings inyour head.
So if you're getting enoughsleep, all that stuff gets
cleared out and you start freshthe next day.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And the other thing is I wear the aura ring and I
kind of listened to it becauseif it, no, that's my wedding
ring, but I was going to get adifferent ring to compare it.
There's the super, but but.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
But the aura ring like tells you your readiness
your readiness score, yourstress level and yeah, and like
it seriously, like it can tellme I'm sick before I know it,
and also like I'm like I'm notgoing to push it hard working
out today.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Can it lie to you and affect your thought process on
it, like you're feeling reallygood?
You know what Oura Ring?
I felt like shit when I rolledout of bed, but now I feel
really good If it says go for it, like I usually go for it.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But if it says like your recovery score is like in
the 60s, 50s, 60s, I'm like,yeah, I'm not going to go work
out and at my age I'm like yeah,it goes up to.
I'm like I'm going to tear mypec muscle or my Achilles is
going to pop.
I'm like I'll keep it lighttoday until I'm, like, well
(21:15):
recovered.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So I think it affects how you know it, kind of messes
with the brain.
I can picture you waking up andthe aura ring gives you a 100
score and you just run outsideand throw rocks over the house.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I would.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, sleep is really important and and so that's why
, from a young age, I loveworking with adolescents and
young adults, because they'restill kind of malleable.
You can still help themestablish routines and change
their ways, because as we getolder and become adults, we're
more rigid and we're kind ofstuck in our thought process, so
I find that age group reallyfun to work with.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
So I know there's some genetic variance.
Some people can get by withlike four to six hours of sleep
and be like fully functional.
Where are you at with sleep?
What do you need?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
For me I need about seven to eight hours and I
wouldn't necessarily I don'tknow every.
Everyone has a differentopinion, but I wouldn't
necessarily say that some peoplecan just get by on four to six
hours, I would, I would almostsay, well with those people.
Do they have some sort ofbipolar disorder?
Because in bipolar disorder youcould sleep, you know, less
than six hours and still feelsuper high energy the next day
(22:28):
and then crash at some point,whether that's a few days or a
week down the road.
So I do think that people thatget less sleep I also screen for
substances like are you, youknow, using some sort of a
stimulant?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yeah, but it's going to lead to dementia, Alzheimer's
, and we've talked about thisbefore because Dave Asprey, you
know, when he wrote theBulletproof Diet and stuff, he
talked about not sleeping.
He's like oh, you don't really,you only need four to six hours
and go and talk to him.
Today he talks about you got toget at least eight hours of
sleep.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
So his thought process it matters what he's
selling now.
Yeah, now he's selling.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Well, so his matters.
What he's selling now, yeah,now he's selling.
Well, he's part of aura ring.
They, they advertise everythingbut like.
But like, no, everyone likeover the past, like since covid,
like has kind of taken sleep toa different level because, like
for me, I was like, oh, I'llsleep whenever.
Now, like that's one of thereasons I was like I don't want
to do trauma call and make memore nervous about trauma call
is.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I don't want to get called in middle of the reasons.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I was like I don't want to do trauma call and it
makes me more nervous abouttrauma call.
I don't want to get called inthe middle of the night.
I want to get my deep sleep andmy deep sleep comes usually
between 8 pm and midnight.
Whenever I fall asleep earlier,that's when I get my deep sleep
and most of my REM sleep, andthen you know a lot of the the
(23:49):
rest of the time it's like lightsleep till the morning.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So so for you guys, now that you're like further
into your careers too.
And you've owned this practicefor how long now?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
It's going on 10 years.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, so do you feel like you're in a better
work-life balance now that youhave some systems in place?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah definitely.
Yeah, from when I.
You're in a better work-lifebalance now that you have some
systems in place.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, from when I started.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I started five years ago.
It's definitely a betterwork-life balance, especially
not taking trauma call.
We had to stop doing likemedicare medicaid because they
had more complications and thosewere like the after hours care
like because they had again.
They had more complications,less reimbursement.
But overall it for meabsolutely, and it was it's, and
(24:35):
this guy doesn't wake up atnight to call so they end up
calling me anyways so apparentlythis guy gets very good sleep
I've been picking up your phonecall.
But yeah, no, no, I don't knowwhat he has to say, but for me
definitely way better work-lifebalance it's not that I don't
wake up, it's my wife got mad atme because like my ring would
(24:59):
wake up the kids.
So, and your daughter's older,so I forget, okay, I'll get up
then but, but it is better.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
But, like I, I like to be kind of uncomfortable and
like if I'm not doing something,I feel like I need to be doing
something.
So I'm always trying to do, dothings, um, you know, whether
it's medicine or something else.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
So it's like percentage wise right, like it's
a percentage of stress you puton yourself and some people
respond differently withdifferent percentages.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, I always like to be highly stressed, I think.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I like how we bring a psychiatrist on board and we're
like this is what we think youshould be saying.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, it's interesting because if you talk
about like a peak performance orflow state, right which is when
you're so immersed in somethingthat you don't even realize,
kind of that time is passing,it's a bell curve.
So as the stress levelincreases, performance increases
.
But once you hit that unoptimalpoint of high stress everything
(26:01):
deteriorates from there.
So finding that ideal level ofstress where it's like
manageable, right and you'restill kind of worried about
something and working towardssomething, is when you can
really kind of achieve peakperformance when you're
optimally stressed.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Just like your workouts too.
You know when you're liftingand stuff.
If you lift too much, you'regoing to tear your pec muscle,
or you lift, you stress yourself, you get your HIIT workouts in
and you're totally fine, right,yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
you're not over stressing it yeah, and so over
that bell curve then is likepanic or fear.
You know, all these things you.
You can see even like rookieplayers or even people in the
league where the mental sidejust gets to them and they
crumble in that moment becauseit's high stress, high pressure,
let's say, like the mainperson's injured and they're in
(26:50):
to them and they crumble in thatmoment because it's high stress
, high pressure, let's say, likethe main person's injured and
they're in for backup and theyfeel that they're not usually in
that intense kind ofenvironment.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
The mental toll can really deteriorate performance.
You play with sorry.
You work with baseball playerstoo.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
I have more for baseball.
I do therapeutic use exemption.
So, people that have ADHD.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That are looking to get ADHD medication approved,
I'll do like a therapeutic useexemption evaluation from like
being a big fan, like watchingthese sports, like you see some
people that just straight up getinto a funk, like more than any
(27:31):
other sport.
I think I don't know as aspectator that they'll just get
into a funk.
You have some streaky NBAplayers, some NFL players to a
degree, but like baseballplayers.
Just see some people be like ohman, I drafted you on my
fantasy team and you're comingup short for two months, I mean
(27:51):
one hypothesis is so.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
There's studies that show that people in individual
sports, so like golf or singlestennis, have a higher
internalized sense of failure asopposed to team sports so like
basketball or football.
But baseball is interestingbecause even though it's a team
sport, you could argue that,like the pitcher is kind of
playing an individual sport inthat moment and so if they
(28:14):
really screw up, there's ahigher internalized sense of
failure after that kind of messup, even though it's a team
sport.
So that's why um also withaesthetic sports.
So gymnasts, acrobatics,different things that also have
aesthetics involved.
Those athletes are at higherrisk of anxiety compared to
other athletes.
(28:34):
Really so it's also interestingto unpack, like what sport are
they in?
Is it single team?
And then looking at that kindof additional pressure, same
with, like the goalie in socceryes, they're in a team sport,
but that goalie is kind of doingan individual sport.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
So we grew up wrestling, so we're a highly
individualized sport, but youhave responsibility to the team.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
And do you take care of any MMA fighters, any UFC
fighters?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I have taken care of fighters in general at different
levels.
Yeah, fighters, I have takencare of fighters in general at
different levels.
Yeah, okay, but that's a wholeother component too, because you
could argue that's somewhataesthetic too right yeah like
they're being kind of judged ontheir weight, right like every
time you go up, your weightsposted.
Imagine if, like every time wewalked into work, our weights
posted or same with salary,these athletes are running
(29:26):
around with public salaries.
Imagine if your salary waspublic.
So there's a whole other levelof of um expectation and
boundary setting.
That comes in with athletes,when, let's say, you did just
sign a $22 million contract andnow your mom's calling you for
this, your brother's calling youcause he totaled his car.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Like you, you have to be able to set boundaries, and
that's something I help themwith too okay, that makes a lot
of sense, especially theboundary setting with like okay,
I can't help everybody witheverything, um, and then feeling
some guilt behind saying howabout meditation?
Speaker 3 (30:01):
how, how does meditation?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
yeah, I love I love recommending meditation and
sometimes people are like, well,I don't have the time for that.
It's like, well, you can evendo just five minutes of
meditation three times a weekand you'll notice a difference.
And I kind of made a bet withone of my patients.
He's like I don't think I'mgoing to notice anything.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
And sure enough, a month later he's like, oh, you
know what, like I actually didnotice, I'm less irritable, I'm
less reactive, and so just theathlete, or more, exec, a
business side, business sidejust that five minutes a day can
really make a big difference,and the thing a lot of people
don't notice like the first timethey do it they don't get much
(30:42):
out of it, but don't realizethey're training their brain to
meditate, to like slow down,like step out of where you're at
, but like maybe the second timemight be a little better, third
, four, by the time you're likefive, six times in and you're
dedicate, dedicated to it toachieve your goals, like just
(31:03):
not just like clear your head,just like proactively, give your
mind like a rest that you'regoing to get better at it.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I just think you can pull and like I'm always.
You know it was building myphysical health Once I was back
to being healthy and like losingthe weight.
Then it was like how can Isuper function my brain?
And like and like.
Meditation plays such a hugepart of it, and I have all these
different head gears that I seeathletes use it too, and it
(31:35):
just gets you into thatmeditative state.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
He shines rainbows into his eyeballs, but but I
feel like you can just takedrugs for that.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But like it, it helps all around with, like
responding to your employeeshelps all around with like
responding to your employees,responding to your, even like at
home, to your wife, to yourkids.
You know, like I notice if Idon't meditate or use one of the
devices, like I'll be a lotmore irritable.
Like you know, like I'll try tofeed my son and he doesn't want
to eat something, I'll get alittle more irritated.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
His irritation, he just shuts down.
It's not like he gets likeviolent or angry, just like you
know.
I know ruse isn't payingattention yeah, I just stopped
feeding him.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I'm like he'll get hungry.
I call it turtle mode when youjust kind of like retreat.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, hardcore turtle .
Speaker 3 (32:22):
But it's like you know, especially with my wife,
it's like, instead of likeanswering back, it's like you
take a breath, you think aboutwhat you're going to say and
you're able to answer it a lotbetter.
If you don't meditate, yourespond with a bad answer and
get even into more trouble thanyou were before.
So like I think it helps allout with like a lot of aspects
(32:45):
and you just function a lotbetter.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So I found out uh, wonders of meditation.
He knows the story and like itwas like junior high is.
I got beat a lot as a kidbecause I acted like an asshole
and so, so, like I knew how totalk my way out of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah he knew how totalk his way out me.
I would just like be like can Iclear my head while all this
(33:10):
crap is going on, and then myyounger brother, who's a
neurosurgeon, would just try toswear and argue his way out of
it and I, I would just like justbe like you know what, if I can
clear my head while my mom iscrazy yelling at me and hitting
me, I can do this in anycircumstance.
(33:32):
And I became really good at itand like, like, just, I've
gradually lost that process,like, the older, I get it's been
harder for me to be able tolike, just like, just pay
attention to myself, my mindlike just be able to like um
yeah, because a lot of um, uh,people that are high performers,
(33:56):
they have high functioninganxiety where they always feel
like they need to be busy.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Not calling you out, I'm just no, no, you're 100 but
like it's a way to to preoccupyyour mind so that you don't have
to focus on what you'reactually thinking about.
So, meditation a lot of times,what I'll get is well, I think
I'm doing it wrong.
I'm like, well, what do youmean?
You're doing it wrong.
It's like, well, I'm justthinking about all these things.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I'm trying to meditate Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
You've unlocked step one, which is just being
consciously aware of yourthoughts, and that's really what
the foundation of meditation isis being consciously aware and
intentional about your thoughtsand observing things as they go
by.
So I always use the analogy ofthe bullet train in Japan, where
it's like you're on this trainand you see things just shooting
by and there's not one scenethat sticks around for long.
(34:43):
And so it's.
The same thing with meditationis you're just observing your
thoughts as they go by and notgetting attached to them, but
just saying, oh yeah, I feltupset in that moment, or oh yes,
that was a difficult situation,and increasing self-awareness,
while detaching from some ofthose things that I, I like, say
that sticks to you like honeyinstead of runs off like water.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So the way I thought about it, coming back to like
wrestling is like a wrestlingmatch is like six or seven
minutes long I actually don'tknow how long they are now, but
it's not like.
The greatest wrestlers are justlike go, go, go, like just go
for a takedown the whole time,go for points the whole time.
It's like they're crouched downwaiting for their moment and
(35:29):
they strike and expend a bunchof energy at the time they think
is right and you got to just bewilling to go at that time.
But that meditation period Ifeel like for your mind is
between those takedowns where,like, you're like okay, your
mind needs some downtime if youwant it to perform optimally
during, like when it needs tofire.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah, like during surgeries you know we do
microsurgery and those Can getpretty intense but it's like
taking the time to just like dosome breath work you know box
breathing or something and doingit three or four times and then
getting back under themicroscope.
I used to hold my breath.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, my first couple of years I used to hold my
breath.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And like lately, I can't tell you the last time I
held my breath Once in a while.
You notice certain things, likeholding your breaths the first
time Once in a while.
You notice certain things likeholding your breaths.
The first sign.
Second sign is like your trapsstart like firing and like, just
like, gradually like.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
And that's part of mindfulness, right, is being
observant of what's going on inyour body, yeah, and so,
especially when I talk to peoplethat that like get quickly
enraged, right, and kind of gofrom zero to a hundred, is
really slow that down into likemicro movements and almost just
think, like what happens.
First does your like stomachfeel a certain way, do you start
sweating and then intervene andcut the circuit at the point
(36:51):
before you explode, so thatmeditation helps with
self-awareness too so, anyways,we can scale this business to
all neurosurgeons, including ourbrother number three.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
So another question for you.
What's your daily routine?
When you wake up in the morning, Are you rubbing the bananas on
your face?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
putting your water in .
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Saratoga water or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, so I have a two-year-old and so with that
she's kind of my morning bossand I make a conscious decision
to prioritize sleep, so I willsleep until she wakes up which
is usually around six.
I go to bed maybe around 10 PMand I wake up at six
approximately.
Yeah, and I have a pretty easytime going to sleep again, like
(37:32):
if someone's having a hard timefalling asleep and they have
racing thoughts, or like theyjust can't stop worrying about
something you might want toconsider like do you have
anxiety Because trouble fallingasleep, staying asleep and I'm
sure we've all had those testsday before a test where you wake
up before your alarm goes- offbecause your adrenaline is so
jacked up that you're waking upearly.
(37:54):
So I tend to sleep from 10 to 6,and then Monday, wednesday,
friday I have from 8 to 9.30blocked off for gym time.
I get to the office by 10, andmy working hours are 10 to 4.30,
.
Monday, tuesday, wednesday Itake external meetings, so I
batch my days to makeproductivity better.
Thursday Friday is for externalmeetings, conferences or
(38:16):
speaking, and that's pretty muchmy week.
So every day I get done by 4.30, so I'm home by 5, and then I
put my daughter to bed at 7 30and and then I kind of will work
while watching tv but you're incontrol of that I would say
yeah, no, I, I agree with but.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
But like I think in medicine, like look at him he's
like if I were to go home at 430 every day, I would go nuts, I
would strangle but I think likethere's like a lot of external
pressures, like my wife's ananesthesiologist and
Speaker 3 (38:53):
like, like these first case starts, these guys
have surgeries all day and she'slike a couple minutes late and
they lay into her like, likethat she's late and me, as a
surgeon, I'm like they can'tstart the case without me and
I'm not going to like drive fastand put my life at risk to,
like, you know, go in and makesure the wheels roll in by 730.
(39:16):
And there's a lot of theseexternal pressures that, like
they're putting on physiciansthat you know, does it really
make a difference?
Look, look at your turnovers.
Like there there's, you know,the time in between cases, or
you can't find the surgeon.
The patient's been scrubbed,but they're worried about that
two or three minutes.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
They're like not on time, that's administration,
that's just like it doesn'tmatter.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
But there's a lot of the physicians are kind of kind
of no, but they, they it justlike it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
But there's a lot of the physicians are kind of kind
of no, but they, they.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
It's cyclical right because but it's not a way to
start your day anyways, I justthink.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But I think the key word, there is detachment right
because if you know you're doingthe best you can and you know
you're not screwing up or makinga mistake, then so what if
someone else is unhappy?
Because, especially in ahospital system, like you said,
there there's so many factors,there's so many different people
involved in a case, and so, aslong as you're confident in
treating people kindly and beingprofessional to me I'd say to,
(40:13):
to someone that really caresabout what everyone else is
thinking, to practice detachmentso that it's not bothering you,
cause the only person thatthat's days getting ruined is
yours.
If you're letting that stuffbother, you, yeah, and the less
you care, the more they getirritated, I know exactly yeah
but then I mean, what I wouldsay to that if if we were in my
(40:34):
office, is I would say well,what kind of language are you
using with them on a scale ofpassive, assertive and
aggressive?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
oh well, well you're.
You're dealing with like notnot us but you're dealing with
some surgeons and I've seen itduring training and even in the
hospital, like the last week,two weeks you're like where the
fuck are you coming from?
Like how do you think that'sproductive whatsoever, even if
they're completely wrong, andnot not just anesthesia, it's
(41:02):
like nursing staff and it's justlike okay, if you think that's
what's going to make the worldwork a little bit better, go for
it.
But like I don't know butthat's passive right.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So how can you stay assertive in that moment?
Speaker 1 (41:18):
because that's kind of just dismissive but then
guiding them while they'reflipping out.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
well, not guiding them, but saying, uh, like
holding someone accountable in akind way.
So, uh, I'm not sure why you'respeaking to me like that, but
I'm gonna go get ready and I'llsee you inside in a few minutes.
So that's, that's holding themaccountable for the way that
they're speaking to you, ratherthan not that there's anything
wrong with being passive.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
That sounds exactly like my wife.
My wife will tell them that andthen they try to be nice sort
of the rest of the day, right,and so that if you can lead by
example, by holding boundaries,by assertively speaking to
others, then you tend to be alot less frustrated.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
So, you tend to be in a better mood because you're
just holding people accountable.
The people I see that tip intoburnout are the ones that are
passive, passive, passive, allday long and then they get to
that explosion point likeflipping out because they feel
so suppressed and that theyhaven't spoken up.
but there's a way to speak up ina in an assertive and kind
(42:20):
manner.
Um, like I'm I'm not reallysure why you spoke to me like
that.
I prefer to just communicate ina respectful way.
So I'm going to head back forfive minutes and hopefully we
can reset when I come back inthe.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
OR that makes sense, but that's also why I stay
aggressive the whole time.
No, we're.
Why are you talking?
No, I'm not late.
Why is my patient not in theroom?
Sir, you weren't in thehospital yet, that's not a good
excuse.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Well, this well, the operating room's kind of you
know, like we're nice, so likeif, if someone's not a good like
tech or a nurse, they'll putthem in our room.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah, they do repeatedly and we're just like
I'm not going to change my way,but it's like this person
doesn't even know how to dothese eight-hour cases, yeah,
but we're stuck with them.
So then we end up having tospend extra time being like, hey
, stop putting this person there.
Not just because I don't wantto spend time with the patient
(43:20):
or the person, the scrub tech,it's like they literally don't
know the instruments, andeverything I have to ask twice
leads to 5 to 120.
Extra seconds doesn't seem likemuch, but then two minutes like
10 times 40 times.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
When you look at the data and it's continuously
moving to, you know when we haveefficient staff.
We're finishing at 1, 2 in theafternoon versus 5, 6 at night.
You know it makes a bigdifference.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, and it's all about controlling what you can
control.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, so I know we started hot and went over
everything, so just tell us alittle about you.
How did you start and how didyou get into psychiatry?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
So my mom and grandpa are child and adolescent
psychiatrists.
But my grandpa did academicsand my mom did solo private
practice and then I actuallystarted my group practice while
I was in residency.
So I started hiring boardcertified psychiatrists while I
was in training so that I couldhave a job to move into when I
(44:21):
was done.
And like I didn't have thestartup fund, so I was
moonlighting like crazy.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
And.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I was like running out of didactics answering the
front desk phone like.
I wasn't the doctor.
So that's how I started.
And then that was just four,four and a half years ago now,
and I grew the group to 10 of usclinicians now.
So we have five psychiatrists,four psychologists and then a
mental skills coach.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
And are you and do you implement any of the
naturopathic or the wellness orsome of the newer stuff
biohacking and stuff that'scoming along?
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, I would say look at lifestyle modifications.
So it's not just let's throwmore medication at a problem or
here's a new symptom, so let'splay whack-a-mole and add
another medication to addressthat symptom.
So we we definitely have aphilosophy of the least number
of medications at the least dosepossible, and almost all of our
psychiatrists do therapy aswell.
(45:15):
So if we're seeing someone, wekind of like to see them for a
minimum of 30 minutes.
So we'll see people for 30 or50 minutes and then, on the flip
side, what's interesting andkind of fills my cup up when I'm
not doing patient care is Ilike to do a lot of writing and
media work for psychiatry.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
So I, you work for Forbes?
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, I write for Forbes sports money.
I would say the IRS woulddefinitely classify that as a
hobby and not a source of income.
But to me I really enjoy doingit because I get to meet
interesting people, I dointerviews and it's like such a
different outlet.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
It's technically branding and it feeds back into
it, so I wouldn't consider itnot a source of income.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, but to me me it's more of a like a permanent
marketing strategy rather thanjust paying for, like, google
ads or something.
So I I definitely don't believejust personally for our
business and paid google ads orlike targeted marketing, so it's
all kind of a slower burn,brand building over time and one
one thing.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Uh, one of my friends again a high performer, head of
like vascular surgery up in theMidwest.
What his recommendation waslike just go talk to a therapist
and it's like the first one youmight not connect with, the
second one you might not connectwith, but one of them along the
(46:39):
ways.
It's not like necessarily youbeing too demanding if you're
not connecting with thetherapist, so don't like negate
from talking to anothertherapist because you think the
next one will be exactly likethat one.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
So that that opened up my mind to, um, it is a
pretty big field in variety asfar as like the person, yeah,
exactly, and so I always tell,even when I see teenagers whose
parents drag them there, thatlike hey, if I'm not the right
fit, just tell me and I'll helpyou find someone.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
That is because to me that's the most important thing
so plastic surgeries still kindof thought as taboo, but more
people again thinking of it asnormal.
Do you think therapy is goingtowards that way as well?
Speaker 2 (47:27):
I think so, especially when you have more
and more athletes that arespeaking out about mental health
issues, or high performancecelebrities, actors, actresses,
talking about mental healthconcerns, and then even brands
too.
So like Powerade just came outwith a new initiative for all of
their athletes that they'vesigned as kind of like a brand
ambassador that they can take astep back from their contract
(47:49):
due to mental health issueswithout fearing loss of, like,
their contract with Powerade.
So even brands are followingand that you know same sentiment
as well.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
I actually have two friends that have 18 year old,
like super hockey, hockey stars,but both of them don't want to
continue doing hockey anymoreand they could, they would both
make the nhl yeah and it's kindof crazy and it is that
something you do.
You see a lot more because I Idon't know like one of them.
(48:18):
I know his dad spent likehundreds of thousands of dollars
last time, not just the dollars, it's the time too, you know
it's like I've been to so manytournaments and like travel the
country and last time I haddinner with him was the day he
found out was like his son flewback from.
He was I forget what kind ofhockey there's a prep school in
(48:39):
canada no no, it was.
Michigan, yeah, michigan wasone of those.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It was a place with a lot of ice and a lot of hockey
yeah, and he flew back.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
He's like I'm not gonna play hockey anymore and
like he totally.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
I kind of commend that kid, though, because a lot
of times I see kids who are intheir sport because they're like
oh, my parents invested so much, I have to do this, but they're
miserable so it's like you know, I always encourage parents.
I actually spend, especiallywith youth athletes, like half
the session with the parent heyhow are you talking to them
after games?
Are you being critical, are youbeing their second coach, or
(49:17):
are they getting in the car andyou're being supportive and, you
know, emotionally connectingwith them?
Speaker 1 (49:22):
so this it around, like this brings in a circle
right.
It's like hating to disappoint,where like this is especially
like pronounced from what I saw,whether in residency or just
starting out is like peoplegetting into residency and and
just realizing like they workedso hard and this isn't the
(49:45):
profession they wanted, yeah,and people like, oh, okay, this
is burnout.
It's like it's significantregret.
It's just like you know whatlike this sucks.
I really don't want to do it.
I thought I did, but I workedmy ass off and I don't know how
to tell myself that this isn'twhat I want to do but for me.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
For me, I think I started over performing when,
like I've always been overperforming where I wasn't being
compared like, because our momwould always compare us to like
other people that were smart,nerdy, whatever, and, like you
know, we're Persian, so they shepushed us, yeah, into medicine,
but like we kind of went awayfrom it and we accidentally fell
(50:26):
into medicine, like all of uspracticing physicians, and like
the more she pushed, the less wewanted to do it.
And then you know, like I hadtalked with my dad and like it
just made sense to me.
I'm like, oh, I might go, Imight go to med school, but from
then it's like you know, keptthe noise from mom out and like
(50:49):
I performed much better.
Like I was at high level forlike ever since I went to med
school I was like top studentand then top in my residency.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
There are a few kids that respond to that high
pressure, but you wereself-motivated at that point.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Yeah.
So it's like telling someone oh, you need to lose weight versus
that person actually wanting toget healthier, because she
unmotivated me right, like likein college, like I didn't even
drink and like she would call meand think I was drinking every
night and I was like I'm notdrinking.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
She's like you're, you're laughing.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
No, no, it drove me to drink more and then I joined.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Okay, I was gonna say no, that was at the beginning I
was actually studious, likelike.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Then I joined the rugby team and the rugby team
drank way too much like, whichmade me look like nothing.
But but the rugby team had mejoin the football team because I
was too nuts to be in rugby.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
I remember talking to Rose.
I was like how did you get yourbench press to 425?
She's like oh, it's easy.
You just drink beers and dopush-ups.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, exactly, well, I went to a six-year med program
out of high school, and so talkabout dropout.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Where was this at?
Speaker 2 (51:54):
University of Missouri, Kansas City.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
And so we started with 120.
20 and we're all 18, and thenwe got down to like 80 within a
year and a half.
That's so interesting because,like the, the person that my mom
used to compare us to wasanother, was another persian
family their son went to asix-year program and he dropped
out like after two years.
She's like, what was hethinking?
Speaker 1 (52:18):
I'm like, and he's highly successful yeah, he's
very successful and very happyright now.
Science and he, yeah, be inpolitical science.
Yeah, he just was pushed intoit.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
He was like I don't want to do medicine and my mom
was always like what's wrongwith that kid?
And I'm like, well, youcompared us to him, Look.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
So my class and I went to a Caribbean school.
Because I didn't try much.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, we all went to.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Caribbean schools.
My, my mom uh, not my mom,sorry.
So we started with 120 kids andthe first couple weekends we'd
go out and then, like two weeksin, my friend and I were like
hey, what happened?
This guy just just disappeared.
Oh, he disappeared too.
Like we dropped 25 kids withintwo weeks.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
We're just like, oh, these were people that were like
okay, they're gonna becomedoctors too, and they yeah,
especially like some of themiddle eastern indian families,
like they're, the kids wouldcome and they'd island hop the
med schools because they wouldfail, they would fail they were
and they were afraid to telltheir parents they're like oh
they or they would tell theirparents, and their parents would
(53:22):
be like, well, this schooldoesn't want you there anymore,
so you're going to go to this,yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, my roommate, actually her mom and my mom went
to the six year programtogether.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
So of course her mom's like you're going to go to
the six year program too, andshe dropped out after the first
year.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Was your mom?
Like six year program.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Why don't you have a five year programyear program?
No, they actually encouraged meto do whatever I wanted and I I
picked out roommates at ucla.
I'm from san diego and I wasall set to go there and then I
found out two weeks later.
I got in and I remember likecrying I'm like I don't want to
go and then, like I ended updeciding it would be best and
I'm glad I did it, but it was Imean, like my fun years didn't
happen till the last two yearsof that six-year program.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
That's pretty intense .
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, you go all year round.
25 credits a semester.
Oh wow, yeah, oh yeah I wouldalways sign up for undergrad.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
I took six years to graduate undergrad with like a
60-credit degree, so I wouldalways start with like 18
credits and end up finishing thesemester with like 12.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, I was between 21 to 23 and I finished early.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
We're not the same.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
Where can we find you , brooke, you can find me.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
This is my address when I'm in Paradise Valley.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
People can just find me on my website,
brookshulamdcom, and people areactually shocked to find out
that the phone number on thereand the email on there are my
direct mobile and email address,so people can always get a hold
of me.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
Awesome, sounds good.
Thank you, I'm out.
I'm Dr Rob, and this week we have the pleasure of
hosting Brooke Shulay, who runsShulay Performance Psychiatry,
based in Paradise Valley inBeverly Hills.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thanks so much for having me today.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Great to have you.
So today we're going to talkabout all things with the mental
state, especially like withhigh performers, which also can
equal high stress.
So what kind of people are yourclientele?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, so I mostly see 40% athletes, 40% executives,
working professionals,physicians, and then 20% all
their kids.
So I do see kids to ages fiveplus.
But I love working withexecutives and physicians that
own practices.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
That's kind of my bread and butter nice, and are
the kids all related to yourclients that you have a lot of
times?
Speaker 2 (01:15):
or the parents will be high performers and their
kids are the 4.0 students thatare upset.
They don't have the 4.2, orathletes, so youth athletes are
a big one I see trying tobalance high school and then
their club, whether it's clubsoccer, club, basketball, so a
lot of kind of sports overlapthere.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
With the NFL draft this past weekend.
Did you have like anything todo with, like, do you see any of
those people that go into thedraft?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
yeah, so I.
I'm a listed provider on thenfl player association's mental
health directory, so if there'sany player that needs services
in a state that I'm licensed in,the pa will contact me.
So it could be anyone fromrookies all the way to people
currently playing to retiredplayers and physician burnout's
(02:05):
just been a bigger thing, youknow, and it's become bigger and
bigger.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
And I've tried to partake in different, you know,
because like the first fiveyears I was in practice, I was
pretty much doing it on my own.
And you get into that state andkind of don't know and you
start having more complicationsand issues like that so are are
you seeing more physicianscoming to you or you know,
(02:31):
because it's kind of like lookeddown upon so not.
Not enough people go and seeseek therapy for something like
this or.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
But when you see it, is it like later in progression
than like when normal personwould come see you.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, oftentimes, like physicians are the worst
patients, right, we try andtreat ourselves until things get
really bad, and so we're allkind of lucky that we own our
own businesses and we kind ofhave somewhat of a say in our
day to day practice.
But a lot of the physicians Isee with significant like
clinically significant burnoutare hospital employed or or like
(03:07):
corporate medicine employed,even an outpatient, and in those
types of environments there's alarge sense of a lack of
control, right?
So like the owner tells me howmany patients I need to see, or
the insurance company dictatespatient appointment duration,
company dictates patientduration or appointment duration
(03:27):
, and so a lot of times we talkabout how can you modify certain
things that are within yourcontrol to make your working
environment better so yourbusiness is going to pick up
even more because private equityis just taking over the life
out of everyone taking well wewe
Speaker 1 (03:41):
know, can we fund you to scale your business is what
we're trying to ask.
This is definitely going to bea hot topic.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, because, like yeah, like day by day.
Well, I get texts, emails likefrom few companies to buy our
practice and I know like morethan half dozen physicians that
have, or plastic surgeons thathave already turned to private
equity.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
High-end people too.
Yeah, Like high-end.
I was just like shocked to hearthe names that have already
sold out.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
And so like that's where I'm thinking, I'm like,
and from them taking over thederm practices, like I heard a
lot of dissatisfaction in thephysicians, so this is probably
a good I'm guessing that comesfrom private equity requiring
dermatologists to do work.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah maybe and not just the.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
NPs.
They need to carry their ownslack.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I think that's the tough part is we're all used
to being our own bosses andmaking business decisions.
So then, when you have someoneelse that comes in with, at
first, an appealing offer andyou might be tempted to take the
money.
Well, a lot of times they havea certain amount of time you
have to stay.
And then during that period oftime, people can be really
unhappy and feeling like they'rebeing overworked and underpaid.
(04:59):
So it's such a trade-off interms of what you want your life
to look like.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, so do you see an age discrepancy or the amount
of time they've been in theprofession?
Obviously the senior people.
In a practice.
When you sell out to privateequity, you have two years,
maybe three years, obligation,where the junior people have
about five years or so On top ofthat.
(05:27):
The junior partners also notjust for private equity, for
just being becoming employedphysicians.
Like you thought you'd have allthis autonomy and you went
through all this training andgot all this shit all these
years to like go out on your ownand then be like oh wait, I
have a whole nother set ofbosses and a whole nother set of
people to answer to.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's risky for private equity
to come in and expect thateveryone's going to stay.
I've seen it in my own patients, I've seen it in the community,
as I'm sure you have, thatprivate equity comes in and then
the people that aren't bound tostaying there that were the
employees and not an owner ofthe practice they want out
because it's just not the same.
And so to me, and I'm sure foryou guys too, keeping physicians
(06:11):
happy is a huge thing that Itake seriously.
So really enabling likephysician autonomy and allowing
them to feel like they'rerunning their own solo practice
within our group, that stuff, Ithink, breeds kind of loyalty
and longevity in a business.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And what sorts of like you know information do you
give to physicians and how canthey help themselves when they
you know, outside?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
of being in your practice.
Yeah Well, it's reallyclinically significant.
I go through what's called theMaslow Burnout Inventory.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
So there's kind of like a questionnaire you can go
through.
Is there a pyramid Maslow?
No, it's more just questionslike how I'm thinking of the
food pyramid.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
It's questions about like how much empathy do you
still have towards your patients, how drained do you feel after
a day?
Connectedness to your job, andcaring and compassion.
So you can.
There's three differentcategories and you can actually
go through and put an objectivenumber, which I like to do,
because sometimes people they'relike oh, I'm not sure if it's
burnout, I just I'm unhappy.
(07:17):
And then you go through thatscale and it's like very
clinically significant, and thenwe can get into a good
discussion of well, how can youstart to make some changes.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I know I was feeling burnt out about like a year and
a half in Like I was reallyhappy with like my patient care
outcomes and everything.
But I was working like 100 to120 hours a week and I was not
getting the reimbursements.
Like I was just like this is,this is not worth it.
And I know for a few months ina row I was just fresh in my
(07:53):
practice technically right, lessthan two years and I'm like
what's going to be my fastestroute to retirement?
Because if I got to work extrahard to hit that, I'm down to do
it and get out of here andthere's something like I don't
know I got to work extra hard tohit that I'm down to do it and
get out of here and there'ssomething like I don't know I
had to do extra years to gethere.
So I spent like 10 years oftraining after med school to be
(08:14):
where I was and then within likea year and a half, I'm like I
got to get out of here.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and oftentimes as a business owner, you're also
doing all the other things inthe beginning right, like PR and
HR and all those things pluspatient care.
It can be really unsustainablequickly, and so one big tool I
give to people Dan Martell wrotethis book called Buy Back your
Time, and in that book it talksabout creating your perfect week
(08:40):
, and so that is one of thedownfalls of what we do right Is
that we don't have a setschedule because we're our own
bosses, and so it talks aboutactually creating a set schedule
where Monday, wednesday, friday, let's say like gym, from eight
to 930.
And you actually block off yourown time, and I found that
that's like the biggestprotective factor against
(09:01):
burnout is actually blockingyour time to make sure you're
still allocating time to thingsthat you enjoy doing too.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Yeah, and that's that's what I've tried to get
him to do is like I'm like planout your vacations, take those
weeks out ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And then he tells me I'm taking too much time off.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Well, my, my wife gets like eight weeks a year off
.
So we we know, like know likeshe works for a bigger company
but like she does a lot of thestuff in the office.
So we automatically know we'reand I'm like no, we're going
away and just like mentally andeverything I think it prepares
us and you just got to leave thestuff behind.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Schedule it Like that period where I was feeling
burnt out, like that's the lasttime I was like I can definitely
say I was dissatisfied withwhat I was doing.
And since then there werecertain things I did.
First thing, I finally startedgetting reimbursed, which was
nice.
Uh, that alleviated some stress.
(10:00):
At that point I was working,like no joke, 80 to 120 hours a
week, which sounds ridiculous.
But on top of that I went likenine to ten months without any
time off, more than like anextended weekend.
So since then, like I made sureto look at my daughter's
(10:22):
schedule so I'm like at the veryleast I can take four weeks off
like fall break, winter break,spring break, and over the
summer I've gradually likeactually extended it to be like
you know what I can squeeze in acouple days here and there.
So like it probably works outto like five to six weeks off a
(10:42):
year and that's where I see thegood balance probably works out
to like five to six weeks off ayear, and that's where I see the
good balance.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
What are your like?
Do you recommend lifestylechanges that people should make
when they come and see you?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
yeah, some lifestyle changes just include intentional
movement.
So sometimes people like yousaid, when you're working those
80 to 120 hour weeks, you don'tnecessarily have an hour five
times a week to go to the gym.
It's just not feasible.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I wasn't working out at all.
I was in the worst shape of mylife.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, and it's not sustainable, right.
So, like for me, for example, Ischedule my appointments in 50
minute increments so I can have10 minutes between visits to
like get up, walk outside in thecourtyard of our office,
building things like that, soit's at least moving and getting
out.
Maybe I'll call someone.
So I'm killing two birds withone stone, and just different
things like that.
(11:30):
So asking yourself what bringsyou joy, like for some people
it's working out, for somepeople that feels like an
obligation for some people it'ssocial connection and so
actually building in that timewhere vacation's great to start
with that and building in thattime, but you have to create
something sustainable weekly.
So, like every Thursdayafternoon is just my me time,
(11:52):
where if I need to schedule likedoctor's appointments or a
haircut or whatever it is, everyThursday afternoon is blocked
off just for that, for whateverI need to do for me, for
whatever I need to do for me.
And I find that when peoplestart to carve out that time
where if you imagine like a redsolo cup and you're slowly
draining energy and lookingthroughout the week.
What are you doing to actuallyreplenish that or refill
(12:14):
yourself?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It seems so hard for me.
For me it's like block out time, what do you mean?
Like it's just been difficult,like that's why, like my
daughter's school schedule hasworked well for me, cause I'm
like I can definitely block thistime out and do it like a year,
two years in advance, but likewhen it comes out to like oh,
(12:37):
maybe like three months, Ialmost feel guilty doing it.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
I promise you you can do it Like if you, if you start
from scratch, like let's sayquarter two or quarter three,
and you actually redo yourentire calendar where, let's say
, you are only available between8am and 2pm every day and
that's it.
Well then, how do you build inthat time?
It actually can make you moreproductive and more high
performing because you're moreconcentrated, and I had a few
(13:04):
executives come to me that wereworking like 80 hour weeks and
they felt like their scheduleswere controlling them.
And as soon as we implemented areally regimented schedule, as
if they were employed but,dictating how their time spent.
They're like holy shit, likethis works I feel so much better
and this is sustainable.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I think if you journal document or just just
like with eating food, like onceyou journal what you're eating,
you you know then you noticewhat like?
You're like oh, I'm putting allthese extra calories that don't
matter.
And if you're journaling like,you know journal how much time
you spent on your phone.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Like that time could have been spent.
Your phone does that for you?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, it does, it does, but like there's a lot of
stuff that you waste your timeon that you don't need to be
wasting you know, and it'sbuilding routines and like,
especially like in the mornings,like I have my routines,
although, like sometimes thekids but I try to stick with
those routines.
You know, like in the wintertimeI cold plunge in the pool, I do
(14:09):
my workouts before they evenwake up and like try to get
those stuff done right away.
Now it's like you know I Idon't do the workouts in the
morning, the kids are sleepingand I just try to do the
workouts at nighttime.
The kids just join in andworking out.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
That's huge, though.
A lot of the most elite topathletes have such regimented
routine and discipline, and it'sdifferent for every one of them
.
But just that ability topredict what's coming in your
schedule sets you up for feelingmore relaxed, less tense and
higher performance overall thatfits into what you were saying.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
like if you can predict and set in that time for
yourself also goes with thescreen time thing so like if, if
you can predict, set up like,let's say, like a wednesday or
thursday afternoon for yourselfto whatever get a massage, go,
get an intense workout in sauna,cold plunge, and that'll just
(15:07):
make all the hours for the restof your week way more like
enhanced productive, so you canjust like even at nighttime,
like I gotta put my son to sleep, but I put out my red light mat
lay on the mat while I put himto sleep and, and you know, at
least I didn't waste my timedoing that I don't think that's
considered wasting your time.
(15:28):
It's productive, no, but likeit's productive Like then.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I don't have to take another like 20 minutes, half an
hour to lay on the red lightafter I put him to sleep,
because he's like moving arounddrinking his milk until he goes
to sleep, so it's like yeah, andit's all about what works for
you and it's different for everyperson.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
There's some athletes I worked with that.
Before every game they would godrive through Starbucks.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
No, I'm kidding, and that was like their routine,
right?
Because?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
if you think about it , that's mindfulness.
You're sitting waiting in line.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Oh yeah, some people eat like gummy bears and stuff
before games, stuff before games.
So it's like everybody's like,oh, why are they doing that?
It's like, oh, randy mossdoesn't stretch.
Before games, like have youseen that guy play a game?
Like I don't know where you'recoming, coming off telling them
what to do but you bring up areally good point before too.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Um, I always tell people to do a task audit is
what I call it and then thatbrings up how to buy back your
time, which is throughdelegation.
So if you're realizing like, oh, I don't know, maybe you
realize, over the last week youspent an hour paying various
bills in the practice, well,that's something that takes a
low, low skill right and you'relow passion to do that.
(16:41):
So that's something that youwould delegate.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, and that's you know, and getting my
wife to kind of because shemicromanages a lot of things and
like getting her to trustsomeone to like delegate that
stuff out, and she's gottenbetter and better at it.
But like, yeah, that, yeah,Like it does.
At times she's like she's likeI got 400 emails to read or
(17:03):
thousand emails to read and I'mlike, just take it one step at a
time.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Just delete all of them.
Yeah, start fresh.
If it's important, they'llemail you back, they'll email
you back.
Or if they're good salespeople,they'll email you right back.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Well, my biggest email hack is the two-minute
rule, which is, if it takes youless than two minutes to do,
just knock it out and then filethe email away.
Yeah, and a lot of people theyfeel like they just get so
overwhelmed with emails thatthey just can't.
Even so, you have differentemail files, though yeah, so
every so I do I go through thisexercise with executives too, or
(17:36):
practice owners is uh, creatingsubfolders yeah like
psychotically organized uh, solike locations of your practices
and then, within that website,marketing insurance, like all
the things, so that when youhire an executive assistant
again to buy back your own timeand delegate, they will be able
to follow your organizationalsystem too.
(17:57):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
And look, even with athletes.
I know athletes, they'retraveling all the time and
they're not around people, butthey're around.
You know, sometimes they feellike it's a family, as a team.
Sometimes it's a broken family.
But do you do anyrecommendations with, like you
know, like finding someone thatthey find and that supports them
(18:21):
?
That's going to be importantand how they think
psychiatrically.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, I think a lot of them luckily come into the
league with that, so eithertheir college coach or their
high school coach or some mentorsomeone this was public.
I recently did an interviewwith DeMar DeRozan on the Kings
and he talked about theimportance of his community and
how that for him has beencoaches, teammates and just
(18:45):
having those people to go towhen things get hard, whether
it's on court stuff or off courtstuff.
So having that community ishuge and it doesn't have to be a
mental health professional ifthings are otherwise going well
it's.
It's just important foreveryone to feel supported in
some way.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
And then do you discuss sleep with the athletes
at all?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yes, so there is a study I love to quote from.
I think it came out of Stanford, but they looked at 120-some
athletes that got less thaneight hours of sleep a night and
those athletes were at 65%increased risk of injury.
And so when?
it's huge and so when I havehigh schoolers that are like, oh
well.
Or college students oh, I hadto stay up late to study for the
(19:28):
test, or I stayed up latewatching film so I could be
prepared for the next game Ireframe for them sleep as a
performance strategy.
So sleep is when your kind ofmind is consolidating memory and
recovering physically in orderfor you to have improved
cognitive and physicalperformance.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Significant growth hormone release too.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
One thing that laid on me was like if you're not
getting that deep sleep, likethat trash just stays in your
brain and your brain doesn'tclear that out.
So you wake up the next morningand you still got these bad
thoughts and bad feelings inyour head.
So if you're getting enoughsleep, all that stuff gets
cleared out and you start freshthe next day.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
And the other thing is I wear the aura ring and I
kind of listened to it becauseif it, no, that's my wedding
ring, but I was going to get adifferent ring to compare it.
There's the super, but but.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
But the aura ring like tells you your readiness
your readiness score, yourstress level and yeah, and like
it seriously, like it can tellme I'm sick before I know it,
and also like I'm like I'm notgoing to push it hard working
out today.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Can it lie to you and affect your thought process on
it, like you're feeling reallygood?
You know what Oura Ring?
I felt like shit when I rolledout of bed, but now I feel
really good If it says go for it, like I usually go for it.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But if it says like your recovery score is like in
the 60s, 50s, 60s, I'm like,yeah, I'm not going to go work
out and at my age I'm like yeah,it goes up to.
I'm like I'm going to tear mypec muscle or my Achilles is
going to pop.
I'm like I'll keep it lighttoday until I'm, like, well
(21:15):
recovered.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
So I think it affects how you know it, kind of messes
with the brain.
I can picture you waking up andthe aura ring gives you a 100
score and you just run outsideand throw rocks over the house.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
I would.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, sleep is really important and and so that's why
, from a young age, I loveworking with adolescents and
young adults, because they'restill kind of malleable.
You can still help themestablish routines and change
their ways, because as we getolder and become adults, we're
more rigid and we're kind ofstuck in our thought process, so
I find that age group reallyfun to work with.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
So I know there's some genetic variance.
Some people can get by withlike four to six hours of sleep
and be like fully functional.
Where are you at with sleep?
What do you need?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
For me I need about seven to eight hours and I
wouldn't necessarily I don'tknow every.
Everyone has a differentopinion, but I wouldn't
necessarily say that some peoplecan just get by on four to six
hours, I would, I would almostsay, well with those people.
Do they have some sort ofbipolar disorder?
Because in bipolar disorder youcould sleep, you know, less
than six hours and still feelsuper high energy the next day
(22:28):
and then crash at some point,whether that's a few days or a
week down the road.
So I do think that people thatget less sleep I also screen for
substances like are you, youknow, using some sort of a
stimulant?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Yeah, but it's going to lead to dementia, Alzheimer's
, and we've talked about thisbefore because Dave Asprey, you
know, when he wrote theBulletproof Diet and stuff, he
talked about not sleeping.
He's like oh, you don't really,you only need four to six hours
and go and talk to him.
Today he talks about you got toget at least eight hours of
sleep.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
So his thought process it matters what he's
selling now.
Yeah, now he's selling.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Well, so his matters.
What he's selling now, yeah,now he's selling.
Well, he's part of aura ring.
They, they advertise everythingbut like.
But like, no, everyone likeover the past, like since covid,
like has kind of taken sleep toa different level because, like
for me, I was like, oh, I'llsleep whenever.
Now, like that's one of thereasons I was like I don't want
to do trauma call and make memore nervous about trauma call
is.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I don't want to get called in middle of the reasons.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I was like I don't want to do trauma call and it
makes me more nervous abouttrauma call.
I don't want to get called inthe middle of the night.
I want to get my deep sleep andmy deep sleep comes usually
between 8 pm and midnight.
Whenever I fall asleep earlier,that's when I get my deep sleep
and most of my REM sleep, andthen you know a lot of the the
(23:49):
rest of the time it's like lightsleep till the morning.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So so for you guys, now that you're like further
into your careers too.
And you've owned this practicefor how long now?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
It's going on 10 years.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, so do you feel like you're in a better
work-life balance now that youhave some systems in place?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah definitely.
Yeah, from when I.
You're in a better work-lifebalance now that you have some
systems in place.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, from when I started.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
I started five years ago.
It's definitely a betterwork-life balance, especially
not taking trauma call.
We had to stop doing likemedicare medicaid because they
had more complications and thosewere like the after hours care
like because they had again.
They had more complications,less reimbursement.
But overall it for meabsolutely, and it was it's, and
(24:35):
this guy doesn't wake up atnight to call so they end up
calling me anyways so apparentlythis guy gets very good sleep
I've been picking up your phonecall.
But yeah, no, no, I don't knowwhat he has to say, but for me
definitely way better work-lifebalance it's not that I don't
wake up, it's my wife got mad atme because like my ring would
(24:59):
wake up the kids.
So, and your daughter's older,so I forget, okay, I'll get up
then but, but it is better.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
But, like I, I like to be kind of uncomfortable and
like if I'm not doing something,I feel like I need to be doing
something.
So I'm always trying to do, dothings, um, you know, whether
it's medicine or something else.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
So it's like percentage wise right, like it's
a percentage of stress you puton yourself and some people
respond differently withdifferent percentages.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah, I always like to be highly stressed, I think.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I like how we bring a psychiatrist on board and we're
like this is what we think youshould be saying.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Well, it's interesting because if you talk
about like a peak performance orflow state, right which is when
you're so immersed in somethingthat you don't even realize,
kind of that time is passing,it's a bell curve.
So as the stress levelincreases, performance increases
.
But once you hit that unoptimalpoint of high stress everything
(26:01):
deteriorates from there.
So finding that ideal level ofstress where it's like
manageable, right and you'restill kind of worried about
something and working towardssomething, is when you can
really kind of achieve peakperformance when you're
optimally stressed.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Just like your workouts too.
You know when you're liftingand stuff.
If you lift too much, you'regoing to tear your pec muscle,
or you lift, you stress yourself, you get your HIIT workouts in
and you're totally fine, right,yeah?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
you're not over stressing it yeah, and so over
that bell curve then is likepanic or fear.
You know, all these things you.
You can see even like rookieplayers or even people in the
league where the mental sidejust gets to them and they
crumble in that moment becauseit's high stress, high pressure,
let's say, like the mainperson's injured and they're in
(26:50):
to them and they crumble in thatmoment because it's high stress
, high pressure, let's say, likethe main person's injured and
they're in for backup and theyfeel that they're not usually in
that intense kind ofenvironment.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
The mental toll can really deteriorate performance.
You play with sorry.
You work with baseball playerstoo.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
I have more for baseball.
I do therapeutic use exemption.
So, people that have ADHD.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
That are looking to get ADHD medication approved,
I'll do like a therapeutic useexemption evaluation from like
being a big fan, like watchingthese sports, like you see some
people that just straight up getinto a funk, like more than any
(27:31):
other sport.
I think I don't know as aspectator that they'll just get
into a funk.
You have some streaky NBAplayers, some NFL players to a
degree, but like baseballplayers.
Just see some people be like ohman, I drafted you on my
fantasy team and you're comingup short for two months, I mean
(27:51):
one hypothesis is so.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
There's studies that show that people in individual
sports, so like golf or singlestennis, have a higher
internalized sense of failure asopposed to team sports so like
basketball or football.
But baseball is interestingbecause even though it's a team
sport, you could argue that,like the pitcher is kind of
playing an individual sport inthat moment and so if they
(28:14):
really screw up, there's ahigher internalized sense of
failure after that kind of messup, even though it's a team
sport.
So that's why um also withaesthetic sports.
So gymnasts, acrobatics,different things that also have
aesthetics involved.
Those athletes are at higherrisk of anxiety compared to
other athletes.
(28:34):
Really so it's also interestingto unpack, like what sport are
they in?
Is it single team?
And then looking at that kindof additional pressure, same
with, like the goalie in socceryes, they're in a team sport,
but that goalie is kind of doingan individual sport.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
So we grew up wrestling, so we're a highly
individualized sport, but youhave responsibility to the team.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
And do you take care of any MMA fighters, any UFC
fighters?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I have taken care of fighters in general at different
levels.
Yeah, fighters, I have takencare of fighters in general at
different levels.
Yeah, okay, but that's a wholeother component too, because you
could argue that's somewhataesthetic too right yeah like
they're being kind of judged ontheir weight, right like every
time you go up, your weightsposted.
Imagine if, like every time wewalked into work, our weights
posted or same with salary,these athletes are running
(29:26):
around with public salaries.
Imagine if your salary waspublic.
So there's a whole other levelof of um expectation and
boundary setting.
That comes in with athletes,when, let's say, you did just
sign a $22 million contract andnow your mom's calling you for
this, your brother's calling youcause he totaled his car.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Like you, you have to be able to set boundaries, and
that's something I help themwith too okay, that makes a lot
of sense, especially theboundary setting with like okay,
I can't help everybody witheverything, um, and then feeling
some guilt behind saying howabout meditation?
Speaker 3 (30:01):
how, how does meditation?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
yeah, I love I love recommending meditation and
sometimes people are like, well,I don't have the time for that.
It's like, well, you can evendo just five minutes of
meditation three times a weekand you'll notice a difference.
And I kind of made a bet withone of my patients.
He's like I don't think I'mgoing to notice anything.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
And sure enough, a month later he's like, oh, you
know what, like I actually didnotice, I'm less irritable, I'm
less reactive, and so just theathlete, or more, exec, a
business side, business sidejust that five minutes a day can
really make a big difference,and the thing a lot of people
don't notice like the first timethey do it they don't get much
(30:42):
out of it, but don't realizethey're training their brain to
meditate, to like slow down,like step out of where you're at
, but like maybe the second timemight be a little better, third
, four, by the time you're likefive, six times in and you're
dedicate, dedicated to it toachieve your goals, like just
(31:03):
not just like clear your head,just like proactively, give your
mind like a rest that you'regoing to get better at it.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I just think you can pull and like I'm always.
You know it was building myphysical health Once I was back
to being healthy and like losingthe weight.
Then it was like how can Isuper function my brain?
And like and like.
Meditation plays such a hugepart of it, and I have all these
different head gears that I seeathletes use it too, and it
(31:35):
just gets you into thatmeditative state.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
He shines rainbows into his eyeballs, but but I
feel like you can just takedrugs for that.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
But like it, it helps all around with, like
responding to your employeeshelps all around with like
responding to your employees,responding to your, even like at
home, to your wife, to yourkids.
You know, like I notice if Idon't meditate or use one of the
devices, like I'll be a lotmore irritable.
Like you know, like I'll try tofeed my son and he doesn't want
to eat something, I'll get alittle more irritated.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
His irritation, he just shuts down.
It's not like he gets likeviolent or angry, just like you
know.
I know ruse isn't payingattention yeah, I just stopped
feeding him.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I'm like he'll get hungry.
I call it turtle mode when youjust kind of like retreat.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, hardcore turtle .
Speaker 3 (32:22):
But it's like you know, especially with my wife,
it's like, instead of likeanswering back, it's like you
take a breath, you think aboutwhat you're going to say and
you're able to answer it a lotbetter.
If you don't meditate, yourespond with a bad answer and
get even into more trouble thanyou were before.
So like I think it helps allout with like a lot of aspects
(32:45):
and you just function a lotbetter.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So I found out uh, wonders of meditation.
He knows the story and like itwas like junior high is.
I got beat a lot as a kidbecause I acted like an asshole
and so, so, like I knew how totalk my way out of it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah he knew how totalk his way out me.
I would just like be like can Iclear my head while all this
(33:10):
crap is going on, and then myyounger brother, who's a
neurosurgeon, would just try toswear and argue his way out of
it and I, I would just like justbe like you know what, if I can
clear my head while my mom iscrazy yelling at me and hitting
me, I can do this in anycircumstance.
(33:32):
And I became really good at itand like, like, just, I've
gradually lost that process,like, the older, I get it's been
harder for me to be able tolike, just like, just pay
attention to myself, my mindlike just be able to like um
yeah, because a lot of um, uh,people that are high performers,
(33:56):
they have high functioninganxiety where they always feel
like they need to be busy.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Not calling you out, I'm just no, no, you're 100 but
like it's a way to to preoccupyyour mind so that you don't have
to focus on what you'reactually thinking about.
So, meditation a lot of times,what I'll get is well, I think
I'm doing it wrong.
I'm like, well, what do youmean?
You're doing it wrong.
It's like, well, I'm justthinking about all these things.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I'm trying to meditate Congratulations.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
You've unlocked step one, which is just being
consciously aware of yourthoughts, and that's really what
the foundation of meditation isis being consciously aware and
intentional about your thoughtsand observing things as they go
by.
So I always use the analogy ofthe bullet train in Japan, where
it's like you're on this trainand you see things just shooting
by and there's not one scenethat sticks around for long.
(34:43):
And so it's.
The same thing with meditationis you're just observing your
thoughts as they go by and notgetting attached to them, but
just saying, oh yeah, I feltupset in that moment, or oh yes,
that was a difficult situation,and increasing self-awareness,
while detaching from some ofthose things that I, I like, say
that sticks to you like honeyinstead of runs off like water.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So the way I thought about it, coming back to like
wrestling is like a wrestlingmatch is like six or seven
minutes long I actually don'tknow how long they are now, but
it's not like.
The greatest wrestlers are justlike go, go, go, like just go
for a takedown the whole time,go for points the whole time.
It's like they're crouched downwaiting for their moment and
(35:29):
they strike and expend a bunchof energy at the time they think
is right and you got to just bewilling to go at that time.
But that meditation period Ifeel like for your mind is
between those takedowns where,like, you're like okay, your
mind needs some downtime if youwant it to perform optimally
during, like when it needs tofire.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah, like during surgeries you know we do
microsurgery and those Can getpretty intense but it's like
taking the time to just like dosome breath work you know box
breathing or something and doingit three or four times and then
getting back under themicroscope.
I used to hold my breath.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, my first couple of years I used to hold my
breath.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And like lately, I can't tell you the last time I
held my breath Once in a while.
You notice certain things, likeholding your breaths the first
time Once in a while.
You notice certain things likeholding your breaths.
The first sign.
Second sign is like your trapsstart like firing and like, just
like, gradually like.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
And that's part of mindfulness, right, is being
observant of what's going on inyour body, yeah, and so,
especially when I talk to peoplethat that like get quickly
enraged, right, and kind of gofrom zero to a hundred, is
really slow that down into likemicro movements and almost just
think, like what happens.
First does your like stomachfeel a certain way, do you start
sweating and then intervene andcut the circuit at the point
(36:51):
before you explode, so thatmeditation helps with
self-awareness too so, anyways,we can scale this business to
all neurosurgeons, including ourbrother number three.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
So another question for you.
What's your daily routine?
When you wake up in the morning, Are you rubbing the bananas on
your face?
Speaker 2 (37:08):
putting your water in .
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Saratoga water or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, so I have a two-year-old and so with that
she's kind of my morning bossand I make a conscious decision
to prioritize sleep, so I willsleep until she wakes up which
is usually around six.
I go to bed maybe around 10 PMand I wake up at six
approximately.
Yeah, and I have a pretty easytime going to sleep again, like
(37:32):
if someone's having a hard timefalling asleep and they have
racing thoughts, or like theyjust can't stop worrying about
something you might want toconsider like do you have
anxiety Because trouble fallingasleep, staying asleep and I'm
sure we've all had those testsday before a test where you wake
up before your alarm goes- offbecause your adrenaline is so
jacked up that you're waking upearly.
(37:54):
So I tend to sleep from 10 to 6,and then Monday, wednesday,
friday I have from 8 to 9.30blocked off for gym time.
I get to the office by 10, andmy working hours are 10 to 4.30,
.
Monday, tuesday, wednesday Itake external meetings, so I
batch my days to makeproductivity better.
Thursday Friday is for externalmeetings, conferences or
(38:16):
speaking, and that's pretty muchmy week.
So every day I get done by 4.30, so I'm home by 5, and then I
put my daughter to bed at 7 30and and then I kind of will work
while watching tv but you're incontrol of that I would say
yeah, no, I, I agree with but.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
But like I think in medicine, like look at him he's
like if I were to go home at 430 every day, I would go nuts, I
would strangle but I think likethere's like a lot of external
pressures, like my wife's ananesthesiologist and
Speaker 3 (38:53):
like, like these first case starts, these guys
have surgeries all day and she'slike a couple minutes late and
they lay into her like, likethat she's late and me, as a
surgeon, I'm like they can'tstart the case without me and
I'm not going to like drive fastand put my life at risk to,
like, you know, go in and makesure the wheels roll in by 730.
(39:16):
And there's a lot of theseexternal pressures that, like
they're putting on physiciansthat you know, does it really
make a difference?
Look, look at your turnovers.
Like there there's, you know,the time in between cases, or
you can't find the surgeon.
The patient's been scrubbed,but they're worried about that
two or three minutes.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
They're like not on time, that's administration,
that's just like it doesn'tmatter.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
But there's a lot of the physicians are kind of kind
of no, but they, they it justlike it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
But there's a lot of the physicians are kind of kind
of no, but they, they.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
It's cyclical right because but it's not a way to
start your day anyways, I justthink.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
But I think the key word, there is detachment right
because if you know you're doingthe best you can and you know
you're not screwing up or makinga mistake, then so what if
someone else is unhappy?
Because, especially in ahospital system, like you said,
there there's so many factors,there's so many different people
involved in a case, and so, aslong as you're confident in
treating people kindly and beingprofessional to me I'd say to,
(40:13):
to someone that really caresabout what everyone else is
thinking, to practice detachmentso that it's not bothering you,
cause the only person thatthat's days getting ruined is
yours.
If you're letting that stuffbother, you, yeah, and the less
you care, the more they getirritated, I know exactly yeah
but then I mean, what I wouldsay to that if if we were in my
(40:34):
office, is I would say well,what kind of language are you
using with them on a scale ofpassive, assertive and
aggressive?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
oh well, well you're.
You're dealing with like notnot us but you're dealing with
some surgeons and I've seen itduring training and even in the
hospital, like the last week,two weeks you're like where the
fuck are you coming from?
Like how do you think that'sproductive whatsoever, even if
they're completely wrong, andnot not just anesthesia, it's
(41:02):
like nursing staff and it's justlike okay, if you think that's
what's going to make the worldwork a little bit better, go for
it.
But like I don't know butthat's passive right.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So how can you stay assertive in that moment?
Speaker 1 (41:18):
because that's kind of just dismissive but then
guiding them while they'reflipping out.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
well, not guiding them, but saying, uh, like
holding someone accountable in akind way.
So, uh, I'm not sure why you'respeaking to me like that, but
I'm gonna go get ready and I'llsee you inside in a few minutes.
So that's, that's holding themaccountable for the way that
they're speaking to you, ratherthan not that there's anything
wrong with being passive.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
That sounds exactly like my wife.
My wife will tell them that andthen they try to be nice sort
of the rest of the day, right,and so that if you can lead by
example, by holding boundaries,by assertively speaking to
others, then you tend to be alot less frustrated.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
So, you tend to be in a better mood because you're
just holding people accountable.
The people I see that tip intoburnout are the ones that are
passive, passive, passive, allday long and then they get to
that explosion point likeflipping out because they feel
so suppressed and that theyhaven't spoken up.
but there's a way to speak up ina in an assertive and kind
(42:20):
manner.
Um, like I'm I'm not reallysure why you spoke to me like
that.
I prefer to just communicate ina respectful way.
So I'm going to head back forfive minutes and hopefully we
can reset when I come back inthe.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
OR that makes sense, but that's also why I stay
aggressive the whole time.
No, we're.
Why are you talking?
No, I'm not late.
Why is my patient not in theroom?
Sir, you weren't in thehospital yet, that's not a good
excuse.
Speaker 3 (42:47):
Well, this well, the operating room's kind of you
know, like we're nice, so likeif, if someone's not a good like
tech or a nurse, they'll putthem in our room.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Yeah, they do repeatedly and we're just like
I'm not going to change my way,but it's like this person
doesn't even know how to dothese eight-hour cases, yeah,
but we're stuck with them.
So then we end up having tospend extra time being like, hey
, stop putting this person there.
Not just because I don't wantto spend time with the patient
(43:20):
or the person, the scrub tech,it's like they literally don't
know the instruments, andeverything I have to ask twice
leads to 5 to 120.
Extra seconds doesn't seem likemuch, but then two minutes like
10 times 40 times.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
When you look at the data and it's continuously
moving to, you know when we haveefficient staff.
We're finishing at 1, 2 in theafternoon versus 5, 6 at night.
You know it makes a bigdifference.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, and it's all about controlling what you can
control.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, so I know we started hot and went over
everything, so just tell us alittle about you.
How did you start and how didyou get into psychiatry?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
So my mom and grandpa are child and adolescent
psychiatrists.
But my grandpa did academicsand my mom did solo private
practice and then I actuallystarted my group practice while
I was in residency.
So I started hiring boardcertified psychiatrists while I
was in training so that I couldhave a job to move into when I
(44:21):
was done.
And like I didn't have thestartup fund, so I was
moonlighting like crazy.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
And.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I was like running out of didactics answering the
front desk phone like.
I wasn't the doctor.
So that's how I started.
And then that was just four,four and a half years ago now,
and I grew the group to 10 of usclinicians now.
So we have five psychiatrists,four psychologists and then a
mental skills coach.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
And are you and do you implement any of the
naturopathic or the wellness orsome of the newer stuff
biohacking and stuff that'scoming along?
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, I would say look at lifestyle modifications.
So it's not just let's throwmore medication at a problem or
here's a new symptom, so let'splay whack-a-mole and add
another medication to addressthat symptom.
So we we definitely have aphilosophy of the least number
of medications at the least dosepossible, and almost all of our
psychiatrists do therapy aswell.
(45:15):
So if we're seeing someone, wekind of like to see them for a
minimum of 30 minutes.
So we'll see people for 30 or50 minutes and then, on the flip
side, what's interesting andkind of fills my cup up when I'm
not doing patient care is Ilike to do a lot of writing and
media work for psychiatry.
Speaker 3 (45:34):
So I, you work for Forbes?
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Yeah, I write for Forbes sports money.
I would say the IRS woulddefinitely classify that as a
hobby and not a source of income.
But to me I really enjoy doingit because I get to meet
interesting people, I dointerviews and it's like such a
different outlet.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
It's technically branding and it feeds back into
it, so I wouldn't consider itnot a source of income.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, but to me me it's more of a like a permanent
marketing strategy rather thanjust paying for, like, google
ads or something.
So I I definitely don't believejust personally for our
business and paid google ads orlike targeted marketing, so it's
all kind of a slower burn,brand building over time and one
one thing.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Uh, one of my friends again a high performer, head of
like vascular surgery up in theMidwest.
What his recommendation waslike just go talk to a therapist
and it's like the first one youmight not connect with, the
second one you might not connectwith, but one of them along the
(46:39):
ways.
It's not like necessarily youbeing too demanding if you're
not connecting with thetherapist, so don't like negate
from talking to anothertherapist because you think the
next one will be exactly likethat one.
Speaker 2 (46:53):
So that that opened up my mind to, um, it is a
pretty big field in variety asfar as like the person, yeah,
exactly, and so I always tell,even when I see teenagers whose
parents drag them there, thatlike hey, if I'm not the right
fit, just tell me and I'll helpyou find someone.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
That is because to me that's the most important thing
so plastic surgeries still kindof thought as taboo, but more
people again thinking of it asnormal.
Do you think therapy is goingtowards that way as well?
Speaker 2 (47:27):
I think so, especially when you have more
and more athletes that arespeaking out about mental health
issues, or high performancecelebrities, actors, actresses,
talking about mental healthconcerns, and then even brands
too.
So like Powerade just came outwith a new initiative for all of
their athletes that they'vesigned as kind of like a brand
ambassador that they can take astep back from their contract
(47:49):
due to mental health issueswithout fearing loss of, like,
their contract with Powerade.
So even brands are followingand that you know same sentiment
as well.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
I actually have two friends that have 18 year old,
like super hockey, hockey stars,but both of them don't want to
continue doing hockey anymoreand they could, they would both
make the nhl yeah and it's kindof crazy and it is that
something you do.
You see a lot more because I Idon't know like one of them.
(48:18):
I know his dad spent likehundreds of thousands of dollars
last time, not just the dollars, it's the time too, you know
it's like I've been to so manytournaments and like travel the
country and last time I haddinner with him was the day he
found out was like his son flewback from.
He was I forget what kind ofhockey there's a prep school in
(48:39):
canada no no, it was.
Michigan, yeah, michigan wasone of those.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It was a place with a lot of ice and a lot of hockey
yeah, and he flew back.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
He's like I'm not gonna play hockey anymore and
like he totally.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
I kind of commend that kid, though, because a lot
of times I see kids who are intheir sport because they're like
oh, my parents invested so much, I have to do this, but they're
miserable so it's like you know, I always encourage parents.
I actually spend, especiallywith youth athletes, like half
the session with the parent heyhow are you talking to them
after games?
Are you being critical, are youbeing their second coach, or
(49:17):
are they getting in the car andyou're being supportive and, you
know, emotionally connectingwith them?
Speaker 1 (49:22):
so this it around, like this brings in a circle
right.
It's like hating to disappoint,where like this is especially
like pronounced from what I saw,whether in residency or just
starting out is like peoplegetting into residency and and
just realizing like they workedso hard and this isn't the
(49:45):
profession they wanted, yeah,and people like, oh, okay, this
is burnout.
It's like it's significantregret.
It's just like you know whatlike this sucks.
I really don't want to do it.
I thought I did, but I workedmy ass off and I don't know how
to tell myself that this isn'twhat I want to do but for me.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
For me, I think I started over performing when,
like I've always been overperforming where I wasn't being
compared like, because our momwould always compare us to like
other people that were smart,nerdy, whatever, and, like you
know, we're Persian, so they shepushed us, yeah, into medicine,
but like we kind of went awayfrom it and we accidentally fell
(50:26):
into medicine, like all of uspracticing physicians, and like
the more she pushed, the less wewanted to do it.
And then you know, like I hadtalked with my dad and like it
just made sense to me.
I'm like, oh, I might go, Imight go to med school, but from
then it's like you know, keptthe noise from mom out and like
(50:49):
I performed much better.
Like I was at high level forlike ever since I went to med
school I was like top studentand then top in my residency.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
There are a few kids that respond to that high
pressure, but you wereself-motivated at that point.
Speaker 3 (51:03):
Yeah.
So it's like telling someone oh, you need to lose weight versus
that person actually wanting toget healthier, because she
unmotivated me right, like likein college, like I didn't even
drink and like she would call meand think I was drinking every
night and I was like I'm notdrinking.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
She's like you're, you're laughing.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
No, no, it drove me to drink more and then I joined.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Okay, I was gonna say no, that was at the beginning I
was actually studious, likelike.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Then I joined the rugby team and the rugby team
drank way too much like, whichmade me look like nothing.
But but the rugby team had mejoin the football team because I
was too nuts to be in rugby.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
I remember talking to Rose.
I was like how did you get yourbench press to 425?
She's like oh, it's easy.
You just drink beers and dopush-ups.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, exactly, well, I went to a six-year med program
out of high school, and so talkabout dropout.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
Where was this at?
Speaker 2 (51:54):
University of Missouri, Kansas City.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
And so we started with 120.
20 and we're all 18, and thenwe got down to like 80 within a
year and a half.
That's so interesting because,like the, the person that my mom
used to compare us to wasanother, was another persian
family their son went to asix-year program and he dropped
out like after two years.
She's like, what was hethinking?
Speaker 1 (52:18):
I'm like, and he's highly successful yeah, he's
very successful and very happyright now.
Science and he, yeah, be inpolitical science.
Yeah, he just was pushed intoit.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
He was like I don't want to do medicine and my mom
was always like what's wrongwith that kid?
And I'm like, well, youcompared us to him, Look.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
So my class and I went to a Caribbean school.
Because I didn't try much.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
Yeah, we all went to.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
Caribbean schools.
My, my mom uh, not my mom,sorry.
So we started with 120 kids andthe first couple weekends we'd
go out and then, like two weeksin, my friend and I were like
hey, what happened?
This guy just just disappeared.
Oh, he disappeared too.
Like we dropped 25 kids withintwo weeks.
Speaker 3 (53:00):
We're just like, oh, these were people that were like
okay, they're gonna becomedoctors too, and they yeah,
especially like some of themiddle eastern indian families,
like they're, the kids wouldcome and they'd island hop the
med schools because they wouldfail, they would fail they were
and they were afraid to telltheir parents they're like oh
they or they would tell theirparents, and their parents would
(53:22):
be like, well, this schooldoesn't want you there anymore,
so you're going to go to this,yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, my roommate, actually her mom and my mom went
to the six year programtogether.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
So of course her mom's like you're going to go to
the six year program too, andshe dropped out after the first
year.
Speaker 1 (53:36):
Was your mom?
Like six year program.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Why don't you have a five year programyear program?
No, they actually encouraged meto do whatever I wanted and I I
picked out roommates at ucla.
I'm from san diego and I wasall set to go there and then I
found out two weeks later.
I got in and I remember likecrying I'm like I don't want to
go and then, like I ended updeciding it would be best and
I'm glad I did it, but it was Imean, like my fun years didn't
happen till the last two yearsof that six-year program.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
That's pretty intense .
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Yeah, you go all year round.
25 credits a semester.
Oh wow, yeah, oh yeah I wouldalways sign up for undergrad.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
I took six years to graduate undergrad with like a
60-credit degree, so I wouldalways start with like 18
credits and end up finishing thesemester with like 12.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, I was between 21 to 23 and I finished early.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
We're not the same.
Speaker 3 (54:35):
Where can we find you , brooke, you can find me.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
This is my address when I'm in Paradise Valley.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
People can just find me on my website,
brookshulamdcom, and people areactually shocked to find out
that the phone number on thereand the email on there are my
direct mobile and email address,so people can always get a hold
of me.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
Awesome, sounds good.
Thank you, I'm out.
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