Relationship Advice: Make Your Love Last Without Regret

Want a relationship that lasts longer than a swipe?

In this episode, we explore a values-first approach to love, drawing from clinical psychology and thousands of hours at the bedside of hospice patients. Instead of chasing chemistry, we dive into compatibility through core values, emotional intelligence, lifestyle alignment, and personality traits. 

We get honest about regret, grief, and loneliness, showing why connection and presence are more powerful than proximity. You’ll also hear practical insights on boundaries, self-care, and building healthy relationships both personal and professional, without losing yourself.

Ready to rethink how you choose and nurture love? 

Subscribe, share, and take one step toward presence this week.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_05 (00:19):
So, what got you into this?
You're matchmaking now, right?

SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
So, yes, I, my cousin, who's my very, very best
friend, and um, she's an amazinglicensed clinical
psychotherapist.
And I had been retired foralmost three years out of
hospice and palliative care.
I worked in hospice andpalliative care for 20 years and
um just spent a couple yearsdoing self-care and mentoring
and getting back all that lifethat I didn't have while I was

(00:47):
grinding 24 hours a day.
And she came to me with thisidea to do clinical matchmaking
based off of core values, beliefsystems, personality traits, the
big five model, and not thesuperficial crap that goes on.
And I said, Marnie, if you canactually build that program, I
will help you build thebusiness.
And that's exactly what we did.
And it's been amazing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05):
So is it like a written test or an like an
interview?
Like, how do you build those uhthe numbers or whatever it is,
the statistics behind like whatyou think will work?

SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
Total culmination, but it is science-backed because
Marnie's got her brain.
So even though she is working inthe capacity right now as a
matchmaker and a coach forliability reasons, she's still a
licensed clinicalpsychotherapist.
So she is constantly doing uhscreenings for addiction, for
emotional regularity, forpersonality disorders.
Now it doesn't mean that wedon't work with flawed people.

(01:44):
Everybody's got a flaw.
Yeah, yeah.
But you've got to match it upand you have to know what it is.
Yeah.
And so that's where it, that'swhere it gets really, really
fun.
So she has created this amazingprogram to where we're very
selective with what who we workwith, not in the fact that's
typical of like looks or moneyor things like that, but people
who just really want a long-termsustaining relationship and not

(02:07):
a dating service.
Like we're not a dating service,we're not madams, we don't want
to deal with that crap.
You know, 65-year-old guy comesto us, I don't care what they
want to pay, and they say, Yeah,we we date 20-year-olds.
Well, that's bullshit.
Go on down the road.
There's plenty of websites foryou.
But um you want to find along-term sustaining
relationship, and maybe that iswith a 25-year-old.
Yeah, we can talk about thatwhen we talk about age and

(02:29):
biological age.
There's so many differentfactors with that.
But if that's what you'relooking for, you're just looking
to fill a hole.

SPEAKER_05 (02:35):
What are you usually seeing with like, you know, are
you is age not even a factorthat is looked at, or are you
are they you know what's usuallygenerally attracted to people at
like what age difference?

SPEAKER_04 (02:53):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (02:54):
So most people like to have about a 10 10 year
spread, where as we get olderand older, it truthfully does
make sense.
But here's where the key comesin.

unknown (03:02):
Are we filming?

SPEAKER_05 (03:04):
Yeah, we just go.
Oh, we just go, okay.
I was like, wait, am I supposedto save something?
Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Okay, I'll pause and I'll go.

SPEAKER_05 (03:10):
No, no, we just we just go that.

SPEAKER_03 (03:12):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (03:13):
There you go.

SPEAKER_04 (03:15):
And we don't we don't even we don't even watch
it again, so it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 (03:19):
No, I don't ever watch either anything I film.

SPEAKER_05 (03:21):
I'm like, don't even yeah, as long as we keep on
calling it, they're like, hey, Iheard this.

SPEAKER_04 (03:26):
I like this, or like or business manager's like, you
guys can't air this.
We told the people to take allthese off.
I was like, uh no, I think theyshould all go.
It's like, have you listened toit?
I was like, no.

SPEAKER_05 (03:38):
We thought it was good.

SPEAKER_04 (03:40):
We were there.

SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
I mean we were there.
Yeah, uh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 (03:44):
Now we free flow and like perfect almost like the Joe
Rogan thing.

SPEAKER_00 (03:48):
Yeah, we just yeah, okay, we just gotta start so so
age.
So when somebody comes into usand they want to talk about age,
so it is a factor, especiallywhen you're screening, right?
Because we've got to startsomewhere, yeah.
But there's so many things toconsider.
So, first of all, let's talk awhile about people who have a
hard time dating anyway.
Yeah, and everybody has a hardtime dating.

(04:10):
I mean, you both are marriednow?
Yes, would either one of youwant to be single in this?

SPEAKER_05 (04:15):
Okay, I was just thinking about it even without
knowing about doing thispodcast.
Like, I don't know.
Like, I I think it was evenSunday or like a couple days
ago, I I went to the ice creamstore and I'm like just hearing
these awkward talks between twopeople, and like there were two
different groups like dating,and I was like, I was like, Oh,

(04:38):
thank god.

SPEAKER_04 (04:38):
Um I think I think it's as you age, because like
you're always told uh the grassis always greener on the other
side.
I've gotten to a point where I'mlike, no, it the the grass is
greener on this side.
I there's no way, like, I'mgonna go to like Tocomadeira.

SPEAKER_05 (04:55):
I just want to plant more I just want to plant more
seeds.

SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
You're certainly not gonna go there and find that
there.

SPEAKER_05 (05:01):
I want to plant more seeds on this grass than go
somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 (05:05):
You're not gonna find the perfect person.
We're not gonna find you theperfect person.
We're gonna find you the personthat annoys you the least.
Because the fact of the matteris that's what what it is.
And so here's here's wherepeople have problems is that
most of them aren't self-aware.

SPEAKER_02 (05:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
And that doesn't necessarily change with age, it
morphs with age because you getcomfortable in, well, I've been
this way for so long, so this isjust how I'm gonna be.
And there's an element of truthto that, but it's not completely
factual.
So people aren't self-aware.
So, first of all, you've gotthese people who come in and
we'll go, we could go gendereither way.

SPEAKER_03 (05:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:41):
But let's say we've got this, you know, 65-year-old
guy who plays pickleball, whogolfs, or whatever, and he's
like, look it, 60-year-old womencan't keep up with me.
I gotta date a 45-year-old.
I I mean, I just have to.
Okay, so there's a way to kindof break that down because
there's biological age, there'sphysical age, there's emotional
intelligence age, there'slifestyle age, there's life

(06:05):
experience age.
So when we're considering age,it's not just that number.
Because I can tell yousomething.
There are some 60-year-old womenthat are hot as heck and can run
circles around 45-year-old men.
So let's not start.

SPEAKER_05 (06:19):
Especially on the pickleball coat.

SPEAKER_00 (06:21):
Especially on the pickleball, and they're fierce.

SPEAKER_05 (06:23):
We meet it, we meet a lot of them because we're in
plastics and they're coming tous and they want to look like
they're 40 because they haveboyfriends that are in their 20s
and 30s.

SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, well, I will tell you, it is the evolution.
I am digging the cougarevolution.
I mean, I actually, when I wassingle, after I left hospice and
um I left a 15-yearrelationship.
And so I did the whole Tinderthing.
I was, I was like, yeah, let'sjust have some fun and whatever
it is.

SPEAKER_04 (06:49):
Until you a couple times.

SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
No matter, yeah, no matter what parameters I put on
there, I kept getting theseyoung guys.
And there was one that I justbefriended and we would message
back and forth.
And I said, tell me this, whatare these young guys doing with
a you know, late 40?
What do you want there?
And he's like, Well, y'all don'tneed your house fixed, y'all
don't need me to pay for yourcar, you don't want to have

(07:13):
kids, and you don't want to getmarried, you just want to have
sex.
And I'm like, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 (07:18):
It's brilliant.
Now I totally get it, right?
A lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
Um that's not what we do with the matchmaking
company, but that's where youget it in different things.

SPEAKER_05 (07:28):
I mean, that's what you're doing in your 20s, then
you need a matchmaker in your30s.
That's what happens.

SPEAKER_04 (07:33):
Can I tell you what one unrel kind of semi-related
story because you said likeemotional intelligence?
Yes.
I was in my uh second year oflike surgery residency, and
they're running this pilot studyon uh a test.
And we we've been tested withwritten tests the whole way
through med school training,getting board certified, and

(07:58):
they they gave this test foremotional intelligence, and like
my program director had to pullme in, was like, hey, it's like
this like experimental stage, soI don't know what to make of the
results, but I think I have totalk to you about this.
Like just talking to it.
It's like you scored in thefirst percentile, so like the

(08:21):
bottom one percent of this.
And I was like, I I kind of likelook back and understood why,
because I was like my initialreaction was like, what the
fuck?
I actually tried, and it waslike, oh goodness, that's not
what you're supposed to do.
Like, I was like, I tried toanswer the questions the way
they wanted me to answer it.

(08:42):
I was like, There you go, I'mI'm I'm emotionally retarded,
and I was I I was I was sopissed off.
I went back and told Sarah, Iwas like, you won't believe it.
They made us take this like two,three hour test, and they told
me I'm in the first percentile,and I was just pissed off

(09:03):
because I scored poorly in likehigh school and stuff, but when
I came to med school, I wasalways like like a high
performer.
And this was the first test,even in training, that like I
didn't score well on.
Not to mention not well on, likeeverything's like 80th, 90th
percentile.
This was first percentile, itwas way out of whack.

(09:25):
And I told her, I was like, Ican't believe this.
They have this test, this testgotta be bullshit, and I can't
believe I scored so poorly.
She's like, She looks at me,she's like, I would have given
you first percentile onemotional intelligence too.

SPEAKER_00 (09:40):
I was like, oh, I guess I guess you're gonna be
great at everything, you can'tbe great at everything, but that
makes perfect sense, but that'sokay, and maybe it just wasn't
important to you before, like,right?

SPEAKER_04 (09:52):
The studies and the other things were so like
especially like there's adifference when you have kids.
Like when my daughter was born,I was just like, like, I was
just watching a movie, and I'mlike feeling like sad and stuff,
and just like this feelsawkward.
What am I feeling?

(10:13):
Oh, that's emotions.
That's what I'm feeling.
Like, I I did that repeatedly.
It's like, oh, emotions aregetting to me.
Inside out, yeah, it's hadn'tcome out in your head.
Oh, and they had inside out.
Inside out nails it, by the way.
Yeah, I think.
I was a psych major inundergrad.
Okay, and I think they bothmovies they've done a bang out
job with that.

(10:34):
But either way, like just moviesI wouldn't expect to have an
emotional response to.
I started being like, oh my god,this is like I need a box of
tissue paper.

SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Right.
But see, that's where you foundso Sarah is your partner?
My wife.
Your wife.
So that's so she knew it and sheembraced it.
That's the difference, right?
Like, she's like, Yeah, I agreewith that test score.
I already knew that.
I'm okay with it.
This is where we talk aboutself-awareness or awareness of
partner, right?
Like, we say now, if you don'tdo something, don't say that you

(11:09):
do.
So, you know, these these menwill be like, oh yeah, you know,
I I go work out every day, andthese women are like, yeah, I
cook these beautiful meals.
Don't bullshit.
Don't say it if that's not whatyou're gonna do because it's
gonna well for it's gonna fallapart at some point.
It doesn't speak to you.
So you know what?
I mean, uh, I don't likeconcerts.

(11:30):
Ugh, shoot me.
I don't like concerts.
Don't ask me to go at a concert.
I'm not gonna do it.
I'm also not a sports girl.
There's so many girls whoreally, really are.
Now, is that important to you tobe my partner that I have to
like sports, or is it importantto you that I respect that you
do and that I will not inhibityou?
And I will go have brunch withmy girlfriends every Sunday

(11:52):
during football season.
Or you'll support it.

SPEAKER_04 (11:54):
Like once in a while, you'll just, you know,
yeah, let's host the party.

SPEAKER_05 (11:57):
So when I was in my dating phase, it was actually
like I wanted someone thatdidn't want to do what I wanted
to do.
Okay because it seemed like theykind of like it's like they were
almost too into me and likewanted to do make everything
right.

SPEAKER_04 (12:14):
What do you mean to me?
Do you feel like she's theopposite of you and partially
very similar?

SPEAKER_05 (12:18):
Somewhat, yeah.
I think so.
I think she's very well verydriven.
So like we have that, but likeshe's not into sports at all or
anything like that.
Um, she's not into like most ofthe stuff I'm into, and
emotional intelligence.
Yeah, I like I think in ourhouse we grew up.
Our family's like our families,like no emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_04 (12:41):
Like looking back on that, like 10 years later, 12
years later, I'm like, Iactually understand it.
And the funny part is like I wasactually answering it, trying to
be better than who I am, and Ireached first percentile.

SPEAKER_05 (12:55):
Yeah, I shut down, so it like I'm like, I'm gonna
make it worse.
So let me just shut down so Idon't make it worse.

SPEAKER_04 (13:03):
I I was the most emotional growing up in the
family.
I cried all the time.
And when we moved to the US, wemoved in with my uncle, and he
he was just fresh out ofcollege, but he would just like
kind of like badger you to thepoint where like you don't your
your defensive instincts is tonot show intelligence.

(13:26):
So I went from like crying allthe time about everything a
little too much to oh, I'm I'mnot, I'm not that I'm not even
tapping into that, I'm not evengetting into that side.
Which which kind of called likea PowerPoint for a surgeon, like

(13:46):
this is actually a strengthpoint because you don't want
anybody to get emotional whenthings get out of hand.
Nope.
Something gets like, okay, thisperson didn't bring this
instrument in time or knows whatthat instrument's called.
It's like that's actually likeit it helped out in surgery.

SPEAKER_05 (14:04):
So yeah, especially when we're in like the trauma
bay, and one of my attendingswas like, I thought you didn't
know what the fuck you weredoing, but then she's like, I
realized like, no, you werethere calling all the shots,
yeah.
You know, just calmly.

SPEAKER_04 (14:17):
Like so at the end of that discussion with that
program director with my lowemotional intelligence.
I was like, but I I think uh ifthese numbers are correct, this
makes me a better surgeon.
He's like, I think so too.
I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_05 (14:32):
I think you know, like this kind of brings me
back.
It's almost like we're havinglike, you know, a ketamine trip
or something bringing back likeI I think the switch for us was
like we came from like war-torncountry, like it was during the
Iran Rock war.
We moved here, and like peoplecalled us terrorists, and like

(14:52):
we didn't fit in.
My parent, my mom would dress usin stuff that was more European,
and people thought, like, youknow, you couldn't wear pink as
a guy those days.
And they had barbecues for thefirst year.
Yeah.
Well, they weren't barbie shoes,they were just they had pink
outlining on them, and likepeople just and like you you

(15:14):
just shut down, you're like, Ican't show any emotions or
anything.
And I think it was just likekind of tough getting used to it
and kind of blending in with thepeople here that made it made it
really hard.
I think that's that makes sense.
That's why we c I I think that'skids are assholes where we came
to the house.

SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
But there's there's childhood things that you bring
into life, yeah, but this alsoleads into something else is
culture.
Yeah, right?
And and um interculture datingand relationships.
Oh, yeah.
There are things that aregenetically in your genetic
code, yeah, from passed downfrom generation to generation
that you were born with, yeah,that people that didn't have

(15:59):
your same family trauma,particularly when you're talking
about an entire culture thatexperience things, can never
quite understand.

SPEAKER_03 (16:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
Right?
So there's also that toconsider.
It doesn't mean it doesn't work,yeah.
But this is whereself-awareness,
self-actualization, knowing yourweaknesses, your strengths, your
limitations, that's where thatall comes in.

SPEAKER_04 (16:18):
Yeah, yeah.
So that it's funny you say thatbecause none of us are married
to Iranian women.

SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (16:28):
Well, it's saying like similar, but half, yeah, so
four boys, half are with firstgeneration, okay, technically,
uh, similar area, but not Iran,and the other half actually in a
similar area, similar origin,but American, like third
generation, second to thirdgeneration.

SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
Okay, so a little more Americanized.
No doctors, no doctors marriedto doctors.

SPEAKER_05 (16:53):
Um yes.
Yeah, I'm married to a doctor.
My youngest brother is marriedto a pediatric dentist.
Okay.
So and he's married to well, hiswife's a doctor too.
Technically, she's a doctoratein physical therapy.
Physical therapy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:08):
Okay, and what's your wife?

SPEAKER_05 (17:10):
My wife's an anesthesiologist.

SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
She's an anesthesiologist.

SPEAKER_05 (17:13):
Okay, so not the same discipline, but yeah, and
then the doctor is nursepractitioner and uh nurse.

SPEAKER_04 (17:21):
I think she because she teaches.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:23):
It's interesting, even in my whole career, even in
hospice and palliative care, mydad was a physician too.
It's very interesting thatpeople either marry in the
medical field, very rare doctorto doctor.
That's actually pretty rare fromwhat I've seen.
But in the medical field, orsomething completely opposite.
Yeah, so that's that's the wifethat is the social butterfly,

(17:44):
the business person, the one whocan run the office, the one who
can run the social gatherings,the one who can do the
networking, and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (17:53):
Well, it's rare for you to see it because if it's
doctor and doctor, they don'tmake it that low.
Yeah, they kill each other.
We don't need hospice.

SPEAKER_00 (18:01):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's gonna take care ofitself.
You need snapped.
That's what you're gonna be on.

SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
Oh man.
So um, in were there any commonthings you saw with people,
whether it's regret or thingsthey showed like extra joy for
in like their final moments orlike their final months of life,
where where you were just like,this this seems like a common

(18:31):
thing that like most people inthis situation, not necessarily
everybody, but like that stoodout to you.

SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
Ooh, we could go down a couple different rabbit
holes here.
So three guide me if you want meto.
So I'm gonna start with thenegative part.
Yep, regret.
Regret and grief.
Danger, danger, danger.
It is a killer.
You guys know as physicians,it's an absolute killer.
It is a wasted emotion, and itwill eat away at you.

(19:00):
So we'll start at um war-tornveterans.
I once had a patient, he hadcancer everywhere.
He was probably in his 80s, andhe had gone, I'm gonna say nine
to ten days with no food.
And people always say for peoplewho aren't in the medical field,

(19:24):
they say they're not eating.
Look, guys, sips of yourinsurance is still eating.
Yeah, I'm talking no sustenanceand four or five days with no
water.
Now we're not doing IVs, we'renot doing anything.
And he would not go.
And my chaplain came to me oneday, and she is amazing,

(19:44):
amazing.
And no matter what your beliefis, I don't necessarily share
all of hers, but she came to meone day and she I said, What's
what are we doing?
What's going on with him?
Like, is he in where's his pain?
Where's his this?
I'm going to all of those thingsthat I know.
And she says, Tiana, he's inspiritual warfare.
And I said, What are you talkingabout?
And he said, All those years inthe war, he is regretting what

(20:06):
he has done, he is fearing thathe's gonna go to hell, he is
doing all of these things.
So he had to get closure withhis God before he could do.
And my chaplain spent hours andhours and hours there, and
that's when it could happen.
Now, on the flip side, you seepeople who you have no idea how
they're hanging on, and the onedaughter walks in the room and

(20:28):
they go in that moment, or thewife that has been vigilant and
bedside for years taking care ofthis person, and they go take a
shower, and that's the momentthat this person passes, right?
Like there's a deal, there is adeal that your soul and God
makes.
And I think that from thatposition, they're trying to save
their spouse from that moment,whatever it may be.

(20:49):
So, for when we talk aboutlongevity, we talk about
wellness, we talk about aging,regret, um, unresolved grief
issues, it's a killer.
And not only is it a killer, butit's gonna make you a painful
death.

SPEAKER_04 (21:03):
Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (21:04):
So let's let's let's try to alleviate that.

SPEAKER_04 (21:10):
It just like eats at you for years.

SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Death by a thousand cuts.
It is death by a thousand cuts.
It eats at you every day.
Now, on the flip side, what doeseverybody talk about?
It's the people.
And yes, I have heard many, manystories of the companies they
built and the cars they bought,but that's just filler.
Yeah, yeah, that's just fillertalk when they're just wanting

(21:33):
to talk to somebody about it.
It really comes down to thepeople that they built.
And I had a practice, and andwhen I tell you this, and you're
gonna say it, but when I tellyou I have sat bedside with
thousands, I'm not kidding you,this is not an exaggeration,
thousands of patients andfamilies over my tenure, and I'm

(21:55):
not a clinician, yeah.
I'm admin, and I owned thehospices, but I always stayed
bedside.
The one thing I heard all thetime, anytime I met somebody who
was married for a long time, Ialways asked them, what is the
key?
Two things I heard over and overand over again.
Sometimes one has to love enoughfor both, yeah, and number two,
the man has to love the womanjust a little bit more.

(22:18):
And I have trouble translatingthis into homosexual
relationships because I can seethat too in different ways.
So I don't know if it's thatenergy or what it is, but if you
think about it, if you think ofall the true happy, happy
marriages that you have seenover the course of your life,
there is nothing different aboutthe way that that man looks at
his women, at his woman when hewas 25 versus 95.

(22:42):
There is a twinkle in his eye,and he still wants to pat her
butt.
Yeah, there is just somethingabout it.
It's very, very special.
So having those connections isis completely amazing.
And we have seen so many timespeople do all the right things.
They ate well, they neversmoked, they never drank, they
just ran a marathon you know sixmonths ago and they get

(23:04):
pancreatic cancer and die at 43.

SPEAKER_04 (23:06):
That's why I don't exercise.

SPEAKER_00 (23:08):
There you go.
See, stay true.
Um, but what mattered is didthey have that quality of life?
Did they have that longevity inthe quantity of their life, not
the quantity, the quality oftheir life, not the quantity,
versus living a very, very longtime in a very lonely space?

SPEAKER_04 (23:25):
Yeah, it makes sense.
It's probably again, it's it'sall all encompassing.
Like it has to do like with likethings we do with longevity is
like hormone balances, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (23:38):
Like everything, like it's not like all make you
a happy, more energetic personso you can enjoy life while you
are around.

SPEAKER_04 (23:46):
And it's like just well encompassing rather than
like super boosting one aspect.
The one thing I related to is uhbeen playing way more FIFA
recently than usual, but theyactually put the attributes of
the player in around a circle,and then like okay, if you're a

(24:07):
defender, maybe it's skewed thisway, or if you're well-rounded
midfielder, the whole thing'sfilled out.
Like, that's how I've been likethinking of like with like
hormone imbalances and stuff.
It's like so.
If you're if you're like if thatshape is like the least away
from being round, that's thelike you're gonna have certain

(24:29):
attributes that other people aregonna like admire you for, but
that's you're most likelylacking in other attributes that
are necessary, not not just forlongevity, for for just people
getting along with you.
Um let's just say like you couldbench press 600 pounds and just
be a huge asshole.

SPEAKER_00 (24:49):
Right.
And then what's it for?
But isn't that the beauty ofwhat what you can do with
medicine is it's a catalyst inthe physical body to get
somebody the boost, theconfidence, whatever it is, to
do the work inside, right?
So um, I'm sure y'all see it allthe time in what you do with
plastics.
You will see a person'spersonality change from the

(25:11):
boost that they get and theconfidence that they get from
that.
Um, and that's the reason to doit, right?
For yourself, not for anybodyelse.

SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
And so I have seen very, very, very, I wish Marnie
was here for this.
She tells a story, but likevery, you know, beautifully big,
curvy women that can get anyman, and I'm talking any man
that they want, anything thatthey want, and they look at
themselves, they're like, I amfreaking perfect.
And then you have seen somebodythat on paper would have the

(25:42):
most perfect body, the mostperfect this.
If they don't got it there,what's it for?
Because it's always the nextquick hit, it's always the next
quick fix.
It's never gonna be good enough.

SPEAKER_04 (25:54):
Like, even when I was wrestling in high school and
undergrad, I I would I waspretty fit.
I wasn't the most fit by far onthe team, but I was like very
cut up, very fit.
But I was always like, oh, okay,if I can get this a little
bigger, tone down here.
And now looking back, I'm like,oh man, if I was like that, that

(26:14):
would be freaking killer.
And like but it was always itwas never good enough.
It was just never good enough.

SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Well, but that's the whole point.

SPEAKER_05 (26:24):
You gotta drive yourself though.
That's the you gotta have goalsand you gotta at least approach
them.
If you don't have goals, thenjust like we were talking about,
you gotta have purpose, right?
Yeah, and then if you thosegoals are gone, you're you're
like gonna be depressed if youdon't have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 (26:41):
But if artists setting goals is like if you
attain it, like let's let's saylike body image, and then what
are you gonna keep on?

SPEAKER_05 (26:48):
Well, social media is making that whole body image
thing and lifestyle image muchworse, like for a lot of people.
It's just made everything soawful.
How many people drive a frickin'Bugatti and you you know, where
it was like one in the world,now it's like you know, go you
go to Miami, there's 16 of themlined up.

SPEAKER_00 (27:08):
Until the next thing, yeah, until the next
thing, but social media we're indating too.
I mean, but but back to thebusiness, please.
It's great for your business.
Are you kidding me?
Right, it's great.
It's great.
But talking about purpose, youhave to have purpose even within
your relationship.
Yeah, it's not enough just to bein a relationship.
So when we talk about how thatsustains you and the studies you

(27:30):
were telling me about earlierabout people in happy marriages,
what was it, 60%?

SPEAKER_05 (27:35):
Yeah, like longevity-wise, length of like
60% were long-term married.
They lived longer, I think.

SPEAKER_00 (27:44):
Family unity is the key.
That is that is a big one.
Well, it was just during youknow, COVID, and then all of a
sudden, loneliness actually gotput on the map.
And those of us knew that forforever and ever.
And now there's all thesestudies.
Loneliness is equivalent tosmoking a pack and a half of
scissor, you know, cigarettes aday.
Well, bullshit, it always was.
Yeah.
Um, and now we just forced allthese people into it, and the

(28:07):
way the people were doing it.

SPEAKER_04 (28:08):
So I picked up a pack of cigarettes a day.
Oh, good.
All right, perfect.
It's like, oh good, I'm makingup for it.
Whatever you gotta do.
So now I can uh and I only smokeuh menthol cigarettes for the
fresh breath.

SPEAKER_00 (28:19):
Right, right.
Well, they say those are betterfor you.
Oh god.

SPEAKER_05 (28:24):
Yeah, and like I think the blue zones kind of
showed that.
Um I I think it it's notnecessarily just being married,
but it's like, you know, they'reeven like if their spouse died,
they had that little communitythat loved them.
So yeah.
Especially the Italian ones,yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Oh, especially the Italian.

SPEAKER_05 (28:43):
They're so cute.

SPEAKER_00 (28:44):
Humans are not biologically designed to be
alone.
There are those those offshots,right?
There are offshots of peoplethat really do well by
themselves and off the grid.
But by and far, humans are notdesigned to be alone and they
need that kind of connection.
Yeah, and so that's where itreally, and if you think about
it, and if you think about whatmakes people happy, a lot of it

(29:08):
is um giving, sharing, teaching,learning, all of those things
that come from other humans inconnection.

SPEAKER_03 (29:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
So yes, your primary relationship is a huge factor in
that, but it's not the only one.

SPEAKER_05 (29:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's you know, with yourkids and some even with like,
you know, their religiousbelief, with you know, what they
think of God as like, thatthat's almost like a
relationship itself.

SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
It is because you're not lonely if you believe in God
and you know that God is neverleaving you and will never
forsake you, and all of that.
So that's I mean, Earth is atough planet.
Yeah, there's some really bigthings going on here.
So to know that you havesomebody who truly has your best
interests at heart and wantsgood things for you and has your

(29:54):
back, yeah.
Um that's gonna carry you a veryfar away.

SPEAKER_05 (29:58):
Yeah.

unknown (29:59):
One

SPEAKER_05 (30:00):
They say toxic in this study.
I wonder what you know what'sconsidered toxic.

SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
Yeah, let's talk into that.
So I think a lot of these bigbuzzwords, toxic, I mean, you
know, everybody's on thisnarcissist kick now, all of
these things.
There's very it's it can be verysubjective, right?
So there's a scale, there's asliding scale of it.
So people are totally overusingthe word narcissist.

SPEAKER_03 (30:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
There's people with narcissistic tendencies.
But truthfully, you have to beproperly diagnosed, and it's in
the DM5 about what a narcissistis.
But there are people who arenot.

SPEAKER_05 (30:32):
Who we have as a president that's predicting
that.
Not talking politics.
I voted for him, but like Ithink that's got a huge part to
do with it.

SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
Well, sure, sure, absolutely.
But when we talk about toxicrelationships, there's a couple
of factors to it.
So what may be awful to you maybe like mildly irritating to
you.
Okay?
So it could still be toxic, butit's where I can receive it and
give it that affects thetoxicity level.
So there are things that arejust absolute game changer deal

(31:06):
breakers for some people.
Yeah.
But there are things that otherpeople tolerate.
So the fact of the matter is, ifyou spend your time thinking
you're in a toxic relationship,you are.
And guess what?
You may also be the problem.
Because the other thing that wesee is there's a lot of people
that are addicted to trauma.
Yeah.
They are addicted to chaos.
Okay.
I have found myself when I was avery, very, very busy

(31:29):
professional.
If I had, and this is unrelatedto relationships, but we can
bring it there.
If I had 10 minutes of downtime,what am I doing?
I'm a loser.
I should be doing something.
I probably forgot something.
I'm so I would create more jobsfor myself, right?

SPEAKER_03 (31:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:45):
So people do that in relationships.
People who don't grow up inhealthy relationships with
healthy relationship um stylesaround them, with not advanced
coping mechanisms or copingskills, have grown up in a life
of chaos and trauma.
When things become peaceful,that is so uncomfortable for
them.

SPEAKER_02 (32:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
So they can create that.
It doesn't mean you can't changethat.
But you gotta be, again,self-aware.
You've got to learn your owncycles.

SPEAKER_05 (32:13):
That's what we've brought to our wives.
They don't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 (32:16):
Oh.

SPEAKER_05 (32:17):
Once they figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 (32:18):
Oh, oh, it's them, right?
It's them.
Oh yeah, let's get them in here.
Give them my phone number.
We'll have all no, I mean,everybody.

SPEAKER_04 (32:32):
Okay.
And she had to extend her tripfrom two days to four days for
like a course she was taking.
She came back and it was like II didn't say anything back
because I I understood like whatshe meant.
I got like this new like arearug that just shed all over the
house.

(32:52):
So she spent the whole day,first day back, like just
vacuuming.
Yeah.
I had to unload the vacuumcanister like three times.
That's how bad it was.
So by the time I get home, justa lot of complaints, a lot of
family stressors, too.
That's perfectly understandable,like with with like health

(33:13):
concerns with the family.
So I I wish I had more to say.
I just couldn't say anything.
I was just like, I I know you'reright.
And I'm not like my silenceisn't saying like I'm against
what you're saying, but it's itI don't I just don't know what
to say.

SPEAKER_00 (33:30):
So let me tell you about this demographic of women
that we see these days.
Okay.
We are raising our children, weare professionals, we are ball
busters, a lot of times they arethe breadwinners.
There is all of these factors,and it's not the way it's been
for centuries on past, right?
And so there's this shift ofwhat's happening.

(33:51):
So sometimes what's really hardis we don't need you to fix
anything, we just need you tohold space.
So perhaps by you just holdingspace and not offering, that's
exactly what she needed.
Because I guarantee you she camehome, no matter how great this
course was, she's a wife and amother.

SPEAKER_04 (34:09):
Wow, the course was stressful for her.
Okay, so that was stressful.

SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
She had guilt probably about leaving her
children.
She had guilt.
Whether she speaks or there'ssomething that's ingrained in
us, right?
And it comes out in differentways.
So the easiest thing is to getpissed off at that effing
carpet.
Because that's right in front ofus.
It wasn't.
And we can't do it.
Shame on you, dude.
You should have vacuumed up thecarpet.

SPEAKER_05 (34:31):
I mean, I I but maybe not maybe it's better
because now she knows how badthat carpet is.

SPEAKER_00 (34:38):
Oh, well, if you want to get rid of the carpet,
that would be totally differentwooded.
It's gone.
It's gone.
It's gone.
That's like when I'm like mykitchen.

SPEAKER_05 (34:47):
All of a sudden, like she's in a concern.

SPEAKER_04 (34:49):
Not quite gone.
No, I would have lived withthat.
I think it's a beautiful rug.
Yeah.
Um, it's it's nice, but she wasjust like, we gotta get rid of
this.
I was like, I really don't wantto, but if you do, let's go.
Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 (35:05):
She has two large dogs too, so and two cats.

SPEAKER_00 (35:08):
And two, yeah, that's a lot.
That's a lot to come home to.
Yeah.
Yeah, just have the housekeepercome next to the case.
And I date.

SPEAKER_04 (35:13):
I wasn't I wasn't giving the dogs the right
supplements and stuff.
Okay.
So I wasn't gonna bring outlike, okay, I still took out the
trash, cleaned up the dog poop,cleaned up the dishes, kept
everything else orderly.
These couple things were wrong,so the whole house is a
disaster.

(35:34):
Like that, that that's aconstant battle that I just we
find ourselves in.
I just like, and if I do bringit up, it's like, oh, you want a
special reward for that?
Like, it's like, no, just don'tlike diminu throw all of that
out the door because a couplethings weren't done.
Like, don't throw the baby outwith the bath water.

SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Yeah, but this is the dichotomy of the kind of
environment that we're in todaythat wasn't in.
There were clear um roles, therewere clear boundaries, there
were clear jobs, there was allthese things before, and it's
getting murky on both sides.
You probably spent a lot moretime with the kids than you
know, men did 40 years ago.

(36:16):
So there this is where it's it'shard.

SPEAKER_04 (36:18):
Way more than my dad did with us.
He was a great dad, butdefinitely.

SPEAKER_00 (36:22):
He was a great dad.
It doesn't mean that anybody waswrong in what we're doing, but
we are evolving as a society,and that is very hard to date.
And it's very hard to date whenyou come into your 40s and your
50s and your 60s and you'resingle again, and then now
you've got this 60-year-oldwoman who got divorced, raised
her kids on her own, started herbusiness, makes a crap load of

(36:43):
money, makes decisions all day,is in this boss bitch energy.
Well, that's hard for a man todeal with, but you like it,
right?
Like it's cool.
But how do you allow her to gointo her feminine side and still
recognize her and uplift her forthe boss bitch she is?
Like it's like there's a there'sa whole learning curve for men

(37:04):
and women to be able to do that.
Yeah, I think, you know, I inall honesty, that's why my
15-year relationship failed.
Yeah, all of a sudden I builtthese businesses, I got into
this mode, and I found myself inenergy that I didn't want to be
in.

SPEAKER_04 (37:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
Then it's nobody's fault.

SPEAKER_04 (37:18):
But energy in what, the relationship or the
professional side?

SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Uh the relationship.
I think that's why myrelationship failed.
Is we were not able to mold withthe way that the roles were
changing.

SPEAKER_03 (37:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:32):
And in my mind, okay, much like you, where it
was, I got dying people callingme all day or night.
I can't answer that emailtomorrow.
Like, I'm I'm buildingbusinesses, I have 600
employees, I have this, I havethat.
That that is gonna wait.
Well, that's not fair.
But at the same time, when I'mfighting these battles all day

(37:54):
long and doing this, don't cometo me.
Like, I I don't have thecapacity to be flooded by your
bullshit, and I don't want toknow, I don't want to be asked
what's for dinner.

SPEAKER_05 (38:02):
But did you did you take time to yourself?
Like like meditate or no, youknow, no, and I think that's
what a lot of women get awayfrom.
They turn like my wife, she'slike self-care isn't even
secondary, it's not evensecondary.
Because she's like, I don'tunderstand why I'm like, I'm
like, dude, I care about myself.

(38:24):
I'm like, I don't give a shit.
I'm like, I can be late to this,I can be late to this.
People can wait.
I'm gonna get my workout done.
I'm gonna do my meditation, youknow.
And I I don't like all the time.

SPEAKER_04 (38:39):
I I can't just put out a workout.

SPEAKER_05 (38:41):
And it's not like I'm doing like an hour workout
or two hours and messing around.
I'm there 20 minutes in and out,and like even meditation and
stuff.
I usually do it before bed,before I go to bed, or first
thing is I as soon as I wake up,like just to do self-care.
And I think I think meditationsbeyond anything like help me so

(39:03):
much because like we're you havea short fuse.
Anytime I don't meditate, it'slike you know, she hits you, she
hits you, she hits you, and youknow, like you you you answer
back, you know, and and but likewhen you meditate, it's like
comes comes at you with rocks,you just block them, block them,

(39:23):
and you know how to block themthe right way.
You know, you turn it into goldand give it back to her almost.

SPEAKER_00 (39:28):
But that's the problem, is that we have been
taught that self-care is apedicure.
Pedicure is not self-care.
I don't getting your nails doneis a pain in the ass.
For somebody like me who has tosit still for an hour, that is
not self-care.
Getting your hair done is notself-care.
Again, you are in a chair, youare locked down.

(39:49):
So, this is the thing, there'sthese things that we do as women
that we that we now feelobligated to do, right?
Because it's just part ofsociety, and that's our
self-care.
That's bullshit.
Yeah, it's not self-care.
We have to really tune into whatthat is.
And I was actually speaking witha wonderful woman this this
morning.
I'm starting to look into genecoding and human design.

(40:10):
Freaking phenomenal.
And she was talking aboutmeditation.
And for me, that is a scary wordbecause I don't sit still.
Yeah, but she said, look it.
Some people meditate whenthey're chopping vegetables.
Yeah, some people meditate whenthey're picking, and I was like,
Oh, and the first place I wentwas treadmill.
I hate the treadmill.
I hate the treadmill, but mybest thoughts come like when I'm

(40:31):
on the treadmill, when I'm notthinking.
And I was like, okay, so itmeditation doesn't have to be
the traditional, like whateverybody thinks about.
Some people it's painting, somepeople it's prayer.
It's a checkout time.
And here's the thing, guys, whenwe're getting our nails done,
when we're getting our hairdone, they're talking to you,
you're doing all this stuff.
It's not self-care.
So I think as women and as men,because I do believe work

(40:55):
workouts are self-care.
Because I'm I now I make it tothe gym five days a week and
it's the same thing.
If I skip it, my boyfriend willliterally go like be like, hey,
you want to go work out today?
He doesn't work out.
He's telling me to go work out.
My my fuse got shorter.
I do believe that is, but wehave to retrain ourselves on
what self-care actually is.
Yeah, and because it's not thatsuperficial card.
And like meditation, it's notgetting Botox.

SPEAKER_05 (41:15):
Yeah, and meditation, like if if you're
not like and people thinkmeditation's like staring at a
wall and not seeing anything inyour brain, that's meditation,
but it's not that, like, it'sabout clearing whatever's in
your brain.
Yeah, but it's about likeclearing that out, cleaning that
out, especially if you don't getenough sleep, and which usually

(41:39):
cleans out a lot of that junk.
And like with meditation, ohkind of you those thoughts come
to your brain because it needsto get cleared out.

SPEAKER_04 (41:48):
So that's clearing out isn't necessarily like
you're not saying like clear nowit means like blank out your
mind.
It's actually likethoughtfulness and
thoughtfulness about who youare, how you're thinking, and
what's coming to mind.
So like gradually going processby process by trying to clear

(42:09):
your mind.
Things are gonna come up thatyou think of, but you have to
you have to address it kind ofthoughtfully before moving on to
the next thing, or or coming topeace with it.

SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
Like makes perfect sense.
I I told a story to actuallysomebody I'm working with right
now who's a very, very busyprofessional starting his
company.
I was trying to get him to sitstill, and I said, one day back
in the day when I would do goodgrief, 400 miles in my car a
day.
Because I had a patient insurprise, I had a patient in
Gold Canyon, I had a patient.

(42:42):
Yeah, I mean, it was just likethat.
Yeah, it was crazy, and I justnever knew where I was gonna end
up, and I didn't mind.
Like that's was the job.
And you'd I'd be with in frontof a patient, and then you get
in the car and you check youremails real quick, and then
you're calling people back,right?
So I never had the radio on.
And it was, I don't know howlong I had been doing this
before I realized there werelots of times where I wasn't on
a phone call or I wasn't and Iwas driving and it was just

(43:04):
silent.
And then I would kind of snaptoo, and I was like, Oh, and
that was kind of my job.

SPEAKER_04 (43:10):
Usually when you hit the rumble strip, the rumble
strip.

SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
Yeah, so I used to purposely kind of try to try my
my last appointments far away sothat by the time I got home,
yeah, I could like get into homemode.

SPEAKER_04 (43:22):
Yeah, it didn't work very much, but you gotta do
that.
You need a little bit of homemode before you go into
different modes.
Yeah.
Like right now, I I need to getoff of the screen.
Like, I need to reduce screentime.
Okay.
It's like just I know that'swhat I need to do, and that's
like just unhealthy for my myhome life, is the amount of time

(43:44):
I spend on the screen.
Because screen time's like aflywheel, because like I spend
more time on a screen, mydaughter spends more time on a
screen, it goes back and forth,and the easiest thing to do for
both of us is to just spend thewhole time on the screen.
Yeah, but like you're notgetting any like like actual
value from that, you're kind ofgiving your brain that dopamine

(44:04):
kick it needs at that time, andthen it just like becomes like
just what you're used to.

SPEAKER_00 (44:11):
Well, and that's the thing is everybody says, okay,
so we're talking aboutrelationships and we're talking
about happy, healthyrelationships and sustaining
longevity in life.
So you can say, Well, I washome, but were you present?

SPEAKER_04 (44:23):
Present.

SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
So that's the difference is being next to
somebody, but being in now,sometimes binge shows are fun,
like if you can watch themtogether or whatnot.
But when both of you are on yourphones, it doesn't matter if you
sat next to each other for anhour and a half.
You were better off taking a15-minute walk together.

SPEAKER_03 (44:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:40):
I mean, really that is the quality time, that is the
connection, that is the build.
And you can't do that, it's notabout proximity, proximity of
closeness.
It's about actually qualityengaged time.

SPEAKER_03 (44:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:53):
That's why sometimes hobbies are important if you can
do them together, but notnecessary because you can do
plenty of other things.

SPEAKER_04 (44:59):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:59):
Plenty of other things.

SPEAKER_04 (45:00):
But there's again, not to like just go like, oh,
okay, screen time.
There, there's sometimes mydaughter and I will play video
games together, and we're intothe same, so we're in the same
world.
Yes, that's the same.
So it's just like us two walkingaround the block, and but it's
different than when she's on thephone doing something and I'm
playing a video game, or viceversa.

(45:22):
So like we we try to find thosecommon hobbies, like she's
picking up volleyball.
So uh what sucks is it's like110 degrees out, right?
So we can't go out and play, butlike she kind of gets
disappointed with me sometimesbecause I'm just like, I'm just
too tired to go out and play.
I really want to.
Um, but like just hitting avolleyball, you're not you have

(45:45):
no time for the screen.
So like it's very enjoyable timetogether, and she like really
opens up to it.
Or like what I notice when she'snot allowed to have her screen,
I'm just driving her to schoolor or her friend's house.
That's when she's like really.
They just start talking.

SPEAKER_00 (46:02):
Yeah, it's amazing what will happen when you remove
those barriers because that'sall they are, is a distraction.
So when you remove thosebarriers, magical things really
happen, and that's where theconnection is.
Now, again, if you can connecton something, that's very
different.
But you know, the I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 (46:18):
We and that that's a hard thing to get the kids to
open up.
It's like, how is school today?
School, yeah, oh it was good.
Yeah, it's like okay, then yougotta work on follow-up
question, follow-up question.
But like again, the the besttimes is when she opens up about
school, and and it's not likeoh, this is what we learn in

(46:39):
science, it's not what gets herexcited.
It's like, guess what happenedwith this kid?
It's like um, and and thosestories, that's when I start
getting entertained.
I'm like, oh, this actually liketakes me back to like junior
high.

SPEAKER_00 (46:53):
Yeah, fun stuff happens.
I was reading something about uma mother who changes the way
they ask.
I I wish I would have done this.
I have one child, she she'll be23 next month.
She's in Boston um law school,but where at Suffolk?

SPEAKER_04 (47:07):
Boston College, Boston College, okay.
Nice.

SPEAKER_00 (47:10):
I know she's doing well, she's doing so she's
brilliant.
My father was brilliant.
That stuff skips a generation.
Yeah, she she did it.
Yeah, she's amazing.
But um, I I did not make enoughtime for my daughter growing up.
I can say that in it wasinteresting.
I was I was mentoring a umanother young entrepreneur, and

(47:30):
he asked me uh a question thatstopped me dead in my tracks.
And I've been asked a lot.
I've been doing a lot of thingsfor a lot of years.
And he said, Tiana, if you wouldhave made half the money, but
you would have spent more timeand had a better relationship
with your daughter, would youhave done it?
And I said, you know, even aseven as recent as three years
ago, I would have said no.

(47:50):
I I did what I had to do.
Today I would say yes.
Yeah, I would have taken halfthe money I made and done it
different.

SPEAKER_05 (47:57):
How's your relationship with her right now?

SPEAKER_00 (47:59):
It's good.
It's good now, but it's taken alot of work.
So when your daughter looks atyou and says, just kind of like
the trash thing, like like youknow, you didn't do the you
didn't feed the dogs right, youdidn't do this.
And she says, Mom, you neverspent any time with me.
I I I I made you dinner everynight.
And and now her I left her dadwhen she was, yeah, I was I her

(48:22):
I left her dad when she was ayear and a half old.

SPEAKER_01 (48:24):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (48:24):
So when I was building my businesses, I was
very, very succinct of Wednesdayand Thursday nights were his
nights.
Those were my meetings with mydoctors, those were my meetings
with uh board, those were mynetworking meetings.
And every once in a while I hadto do it outside of that.
Yeah, she went to before school,she went to after school, a lot
of kids do, but like I when Ihad her, I was really good about
it.
So I was like, but Sage, I was,you know, I made you dinner

(48:47):
every night.
I I got you from school everyday.
It was a handful of times I hadto get help.
And she goes, Mom, how manyconversations did we have where
you didn't stop in the middle ofit and go, oh yeah, go ahead and
approve that or answer an emailor whatever.
And I go, so so.
You know what I mean?
You're not wrong.
Yeah, you are not wrong.

(49:08):
And so do I I I will not say Iregret it.
It was my path, it's her path.
And if anything, I showed herhow to work really hard.

SPEAKER_05 (49:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:16):
Um, so I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_05 (49:18):
Yeah, there's you know, there's the two different
ways of looking at it.

SPEAKER_00 (49:21):
Yeah, I'm also not gonna buy into this bullshit
victim mentality that a lot ofthese kids have.
You can't.
I'm not, and I'm not gonna gothere.
Am I gonna accept responsibilityfor my part, which is what you
do in any relationship, becauseI'm gonna tell you we all have a
part.
Even the other person is superwrong, we still have our part.

SPEAKER_04 (49:37):
And no matter no matter how you did it, how much
you tried, or how little youtried, you could have always
done less and you could havealways done more.

SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
Absolutely.
You know what?
And I think I think that that'sa lot of things that we have to
deal with.
Our our parents, our childhood.
We have to admit that with theexcept for the extreme crazy
outliers of true likepsychopathy or whatnot.
Yeah, um, our parents bid didthe best they could with what
they had.
At some point, if we have traumafrom it, deal with it, face it,

(50:07):
get over it.
But like, don't we?

SPEAKER_05 (50:09):
That's what made you strong, you know.
I think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 (50:11):
But it's also it's also you can't um live up to
expectations of like because yousaid everything's evolving, so
you can't live up toexpectations of how things are
today with how you did it 10years, 15 years ago.
Not to make excuses, but likeit's it's like my dad went back
with one of my brothers likethis like 10-15 years ago to

(50:35):
like back to the village wherehe grew up, and all of a sudden
he starts yelling in hisdialect, which my brother can't
understand, to the sheep herder.
Just you're a villager in Iran,like just herding sheep, and my
brother's like, What are youdoing?
What are you doing?
And he's just like, Oh, I wentto elementary school with him.

(50:55):
And we're just like thinking oflike how, like, okay, we
thought, like, we'reaccomplished, we we went, we all
became successful after notdoing too well early on in
school and stuff, and like awhole family of physicians, but
then like was that easierscripted than my dad going from

(51:20):
a village in Iran, my mom fromanother village in Iran to
eventually Tehran to the US,then raising a family of four
four physicians.
Yeah, like oh, maybe we had iteasy.

SPEAKER_00 (51:34):
So but there's always somebody who had it
easier, there's always somebodywho had it harder.
Yeah.
That's also, you know, anotherdialect that we can get to,
which again talks to likeacceptance and awareness and all
of those things and connection.
And again, connection meansdifferent things to different
people, right?
That's the attachment styles andthings that we were referencing

(51:55):
and and things earlier.
It's really about making thatultimate connection.
I mean, you guys are verydifferent personalities, it
seems, right?
Like obviously very close, verybrothers, like, but at the end
of the day, do both.
Oh, that is cute.
That was really cute.
I love that.
That was awesome.
Um, but but at the end of theday, no matter what your

(52:17):
personality is, is it importantfor you to have special
relationships with people, to beloved by people, to be wanted by
people?

SPEAKER_04 (52:24):
Absolutely.
Certain people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:26):
Correct.
Correct.
Correct.

SPEAKER_04 (52:29):
Not all, but but but that that's that's one thing we
uh share in common.
There's certain people that likeit really doesn't matter, so it
doesn't affect us, but thepeople closest to us, we want to
make sure that yeah, likethey're they're happy.
We might like we don't respondto certain questions or when
people are yelling at us,because one thing, we either

(52:52):
care enough about you and weknow our responses aren't gonna
make a difference, or we reallydon't give a shit about what you
say or what your opinion is.
So we're gonna stay silent.
But if if the moment ariseswhere I could be either well,
pretty much helpful, because wereally don't like even like you

(53:16):
hear about surgeons and stuffyelling the OR, we like I did it
like two months ago for thefirst time in like five years,
but like we were like theemergency CO people even in the
operating room.

SPEAKER_05 (53:29):
So well, I almost got fired multiple times in my
general surgery days becausethey thought I couldn't be a
leader because I wouldn't yellat the students that would come
or the lower residents than me.
And my way of teaching was I'mgonna teach you behind the back
door, and you're gonna learnfrom and I scored the highest

(53:52):
like year after year on all allour in-service exams and
everything.
And like I even had myattendings asking me how they
should have answered some of thequestions when they were taking
their boards.
And you know, but like yearafter year they tried to fire me
uh because they were like, Idon't think you know how to be a
leader, you're not teachingthese kids.

(54:15):
And I had read every book.
I've I would teach the everyonebehind closed doors.
I didn't want to like make themlook like idiots in front of the
other physicians or theattendings.
I was like, I'm gonna do itwhere they need to do it.
And like, you know, we'd havegrand rounds and whatever, and
like the teach the my attendingswould ask me questions and I

(54:37):
would prove them wrong and whatI did.
And like it was continuous, itwas it was kind of traumatizing
because I'm like, I didn't doanything wrong.
Like my my advisor would belike, What's wrong with you?
I'm like, dude, I look at myexam scores, look at my
operative skills.
I'm not presenting cases that Idid wrong things for the like

(55:01):
idiotic things over and overagain, and they've presented the
same thing like multiple times.
I'm like, I don't have thatrecord.
They don't like me because I'mone thing I'm Middle Eastern.
Um, second thing, I'm quiet, andmy wife thinks I'm on the
spectrum.
So it's like but like you know,others do too.
But like when when they saw theexams, they'd be like, uh, but

(55:25):
there's a stereotype, right?

SPEAKER_00 (55:26):
There's a stereotype that goes with surgeons, with
different doctors.
Stereotypes are based off ofsome fundamental truths.
Oh, yeah, right.
It doesn't mean that everyoneevery tool's that way.
Stereotypes are are for areason.

SPEAKER_04 (55:40):
Yeah, it's not just a stereotype, it it's just it's
built with time like throughouthistory.
Like anybody that knows anythingabout like if you go one
generation, two generationsback, like that's what a surgeon
is supposed to act like.
Yeah, and throw instruments.

SPEAKER_00 (55:56):
It's kind of gone away because like because it's
not, well, it's now it's justnot acceptable.
No, like that's not the way thatyou've got to be able to do it.
People get fired.
Yeah, people will get fired now,but they didn't used to.
I've been working with my dad,was a doctor, I have several
family members, and I mean I'vehad 50, 60 doctors working with
me in any given time.
Not just that.

SPEAKER_04 (56:12):
That gave better results.
Yeah, who can that would havebeen prevalent right in time?

SPEAKER_00 (56:16):
I if I I have said it a hundred times.
If I want a surgeon, like I wanta surgeon almost with a not a
great bedside manner.
Yeah, like come, I don't need asmall talk with you, don't do
it.
And secondary, all of myphysicians, I want to be on the
spectrum.
I'm not even kidding you, atsome way, shape, or form.
Because there is a true absolutebrilliance to that.

SPEAKER_04 (56:39):
I will I will tell you one thing.
You should, as a patient, seek aphysician with the best bedside
manner.
I know that because we'll giveyou insight into their whole
thought process.
Yeah.
Because at least like you haveto connect with them when you're
communicating with them.
And if someone comes in thereand you just cannot get along

(57:02):
with them, and then you have aserious medical issue, yeah,
then you gotta deal with them,then it's just like becomes
tough to it's it's horrible.
So, like in this day and age,you need to have good bedside
manners no matter what what'sgoing on, even if the patients
like going off the rails,whatever, you you need to know

(57:23):
to like just step away.

SPEAKER_00 (57:24):
Do you guys fire patients?

SPEAKER_04 (57:26):
Um rarely.
But with my brother had apatient that said, Oh, this
might be showing I show it toall my physicians just to make
sure I get good care of me.

SPEAKER_00 (57:37):
A gun?
Yeah.
Oh.

SPEAKER_05 (57:39):
Actually, he showed him a shank too.
He showed him a shank and saidhe takes his gun to this
dentist.
Yeah, so he was just like, um,he's not comfortable seeing you.
And he's like, he's like a yearand a half, two years out of
training.
He's fresh out.
What does he do?
He's occurplastics.
Oh, and he's like, he's like,hey, I got something weird to

(58:01):
tell you.
And he brings up this story.
He's like, what should I?
I'm like, I wouldn't see theguy.
I would not see that guy.
No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 (58:07):
Would you fire a patient?

SPEAKER_04 (58:09):
I have, I but I've taken like like have I actually?
No, I would, I would definitelyfire a patient.

SPEAKER_00 (58:21):
Right?
Like you're not all cash-based.

SPEAKER_04 (58:22):
We do a lot of breast reconstruction for breast
cancer patients.
We do spine and scalp recon,some lower like leg uh
reconstruction, too.
Um we we try to weed that out bynot doing operations on the
wrong people.

SPEAKER_05 (58:39):
Yeah, we just pretty much like tell them because when
I first started, I did officeshare with another um plastic
surgeon that he and he died likewithin the first six months of
me being in practice, and I wasgood friends with a guy.
And like his patients, therewere a lot of crazy ones, but um

(59:01):
I said I wouldn't, you know, Istopped seeing them, but I saw
him for a little bit and I waslike, I was like, all right,
there's almost no operation.
I you know, he had done tons ofoperations on him.
I'm like, I'm not touching sothat that way, but like really
firing patients, it would take alot.

SPEAKER_04 (59:20):
Like they would have to be completely unreasonable,
and for them to be thatunreasonable post-operatively,
we I I'd say we do a good job atcatching most of them
pre-operatively.
So, like, because you you lookout for things to be like um
either unrealistic expectationsor like unrealistic drive, like,

(59:42):
why are you getting this done?

SPEAKER_05 (59:44):
There's two things to look out for.
It's like some of the patientscome in and complain about other
plastic surgeons.
And and you you you gotta lookat the results.
Sometimes the results arebotched and you're like, all
right, I can help you out.
Others, you know, they they hadA decent job, but they they talk
it they talk way worse than whatwas actually done about the

(01:00:06):
plastic surgeon.
Then you're like, all right,this is kind of questionable.
Probably don't want to operateon them.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:12):
In hospice, I mean, because we were Medicare, I we
had very strict rules about whatwe could do when we could
discharge a patient, but we wereable to get everybody pretty
under control.
I had I had one funny guy livedby himself, crotch the old dude.
I did the intake on this one forsome reason.
I don't know why.
He was over on the he was overon the west side.
And I mean, there was the UnitedStates flag, the Confederate

(01:00:35):
flag outside.
I walk in, he's got guns allover the place.
He's just hanging out, smokinghis cigarettes, knows he's gonna
die.
Had a group, use the F-word,every other word, loved him,
right?
But I was like, okay.
So I get out there, I sign histeam.
The nurse calls me or calls intothe administrator, and I
eventually hear about it likeafter the first visit, like,
hey, not really comfortable withall the guns around the table.

(01:00:57):
Then, so he advises her to havethe conversation, no problem.
Now he decides that it's coolwhen everybody comes over.
This is about two weeks in.
And um so we have our nursegoing in, our chaplain, our
social worker, our certifiednursing assistants.
You get a lot of you know visitsthroughout the day.
Now his new thing is he doesn'twear clothes, but he has a
little hand towel over him,right?

(01:01:17):
But he's got his a gun or thisor whatever.
And so how old is he roughly?

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:22):
70s?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:23):
Oh, yeah, late 70s.
Okay.
So there had been several peoplethat had talked to him, and he
was nice enough, but he's he'scrass.
Like he'd be like, you know,it's my fing house, I can do it.
I do you cuss on this or no?

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:35):
Oh, yeah.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:37):
Yeah.
He's like, it's my house, I cando whatever I want, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
So fine, it gets it gets to apoint where I call him because
he needed us, and and I just Ido, I love people.
And I call him and I knew how totalk to him, and I said, We're
gonna use the name Randy.
That was not his name.
And I said, Randy, it's Tiana.
And he says, Holy fucking shit,Tiana, I fucking love your

(01:01:59):
people.
They're the best people thathave ever been.
There's this, there's that.
I mean, that's just the way hetalks.
And I said, I am so glad to hearthat, Randy.
Do me a favor.
And he goes, What?
And I said, put the guns awayand put your dick away and be
respectful to my team, and wedon't have any problems.
You hear me?
And he's like, Okay.
And that was it.
But you know, you just have tokind of get there.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:20):
But sometimes it's hard to get that respect,
whether it's like nurses, evenfemale physicians see that a
lot.
They're just like, you you don'ttell me what to do, like and
like Sarah being a physicaltherapist, it's like, well, they
listen to you a different waybeing a physician than they do
therapists.
So yeah, I was the owner of thecompany.

(01:02:41):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:41):
But I don't even know if he knew that, but it
didn't matter.
But I I can get I can get rough.
I can get rough.

SPEAKER_05 (01:02:47):
I mean, you yeah, some some of the weird weird
patients like that we'd get likeI'm like, just charge them more.
And that doesn't work.
That doesn't work.
Because they pay right, they paymore and actually they're
actually more happy.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:04):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:05):
What do we what do we need to cover here?

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:06):
I don't have no idea.
Whatever we're talking about.
Because your guys' podcast, soyou told me I just want to make
sure you've got what you canuse.
You got stuff you can use.
Yeah, we we use all of it.
That's good.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:15):
Yeah, I in in my business, I couldn't wait until
I went to cash pay businesses soI could fire people.

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:20):
You got you eventually have to when you just
like just like uh I I either gocash pay or I lose money.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:26):
Yeah, but I would fire referral sources.
So if doctors or facilities werenasty to my nurses or didn't
take good care of patients, whenI got to the point where I was
big enough where I wassustainable and I didn't have to
take those referrals anymore,because you know, I was you're
out begging for business in thebeginning.
That was a that was a big turn.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:43):
That's the whole thing about like it's still a
small business, it's not like alarge corporation, you're still
running a small business.
Yeah, you gotta know everybody.
You have to appease, whetherit's like your referral base,
patient base, because likeobviously if you're not treating
your patients well, you peoplearen't gonna refer to you.
Yeah, or if you're not beingresponsive to your referral

(01:04:05):
base, they're not gonna send youpatients, blah, blah, blah.
Um, so it it's it'smultifactorial.
It's I I personally think it'smore difficult than like
actually running a restaurant,even though people are like, oh,
most restaurants go out ofbusiness.
I I keep joking around I workedin restaurants for eight years.

SPEAKER_05 (01:04:24):
Yeah, like I I want to own a restaurant just to say
but now the restaurantemployment's a lot easier than
employment and like plasticsurgery.
Well, it's the same price point.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:34):
We have the we have the it's the same, it's the same
demographic.
Employment is just hard.
Well, that's uh the restaurantshave a hard time because they
get over their head with umoverhead.
Yeah, it's just mismanagement.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:45):
It's always mismanagement of like pretty
much supply and demand, offertoo many things, they don't keep
track of stuff in the back ofthe house, things get ruined all
the time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:57):
Yeah, but let me ask you this.
So you guys are in your ownpractices now?
Yeah, yeah, and it's is ittogether or separate?
Yeah, you have your own.
Okay, there are very few doctorswho actually are decent
businessmen.

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:09):
Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:10):
Have you encountered that?

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:11):
They they say that, and on the same hand, like the
physicians almost like athletes,because like you go through so
many years of not making anymoney, yeah, that you don't know
how to manage money, and that'snever taught.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:24):
You shouldn't.
And this is what the beauty ofthat is is that one of the most
brilliant things my daddy alwayssaid to me is you don't have to
know everything, you have toknow the people that do.
Where people fail in business,yeah, because this is what I do
now, is I translate it and Ihelp people start businesses or
grow or sell or whatever, theytry to do too many things.
Like when you get to now, whenyou open a first business,

(01:05:44):
you're doing everything, right?
Yeah, the smartest thing you cando as you start to grow is to
offload either the things thatyou're not good at or that you
don't like.
And the thing that you can dobetter than anybody else, which
is which is also oftenfront-facing, yeah, because
nobody's gonna care about yourbusiness the way it is.
Yeah, let everybody else takecare of that, let them take care
of the finances, the ordering,the this, the that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:05):
But that's tough also, because you can like
hemorrhage money for the money.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:08):
You can hemorrhage money and you can have extortion
and you can have um people thatare stealing from you and all
that stuff that always happensto be.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:16):
But like plastics, the thing different about being
a plastic surgeon is unlessyou're an academic, which we're
not, in private practice, youkind of need to be an
entrepreneur and a businessman.
You you gotta figure out theways to like get through market.
You you learn a lot of thingsabout a lot of different things,

(01:06:36):
but like also like you know, wejust want to operate.
And like that's what you know,my wife gets mad because she
runs our practice and she'slike, you know, she wants us to
do a little more, but like, youknow, I I do take time to
interview my employees and makesure like I go through
everyone's resumes and I'm like,all right, these are the ones to

(01:06:58):
interview, and like you know,they go through a different, you
know, they have virtual virtualinterview, in-person interview,
and then we make sure they workwith our team while we bring
them in for a work and interviewbefore hiring them.
And like I think that's made ahuge difference in like the
group of people that we keep inthe office, and it's just made a

(01:07:22):
better work atmosphere for us.
But like, yeah, business so muchbetter to degree.
The thing is for us, the theonly thing I see is like, yeah,
we could add other physiciansand stuff, but like to kind of
try to.
I'm like classic surgery makesus decent money where we can
feed other businesses that couldbe automatic for us rather than

(01:07:44):
you know, yeah, rather than youknow, I think trying to grow the
just like our plastic surgeryoffice.
I don't know, part of it's Igrew the group to five-person
group without my two brothers init previously.
And that kind of you know, oncewe split, that kind of left a
bad taste in my mouth.
Then I'm like, I don't reallywant to do that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:05):
Well, the dynamics are different, the dynamics are
different.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:08):
But it's also like the scalability, the scalability
and like how much money youcould make using your funds to
put into different investments,as long as you're smart with
investing and stuff, that'sprobably higher than putting
your funds towards hiringadditional people and trying to
grow the practice.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:27):
But see, that goes back to your purpose.
Like if your heart is full andyou are happy because you're
getting to operate all day,you're making enough money, the
dynamics of your office is good.
And by the way, because you arebeing able to stay focused on
what you like to do, you canoffset your money to make money
other places instead of havingto scale.
That's still that's yourpurpose.
Yeah, and but there's people whoare like, I want a 10 physician

(01:08:48):
practice.
I want that.
Well, that's their purpose.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:51):
That's what I wanted, and it's kind of gone
away.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:54):
I've I've lost all drive for that.
Every time I'm like, Oh, we'rebuilding up this much, we we
should add a physician, do this,and like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:09:02):
I may want to add one person just to keep uh like
I think we need to, but otherthan that, like I'm like, I'm

(01:09:26):
gonna do it.