#11 Maggie & Chuck Odette - Transcending Societal Scripts, Projecting Elite Grades, Making Good Choices, and Aging Joyfully - Ageless Athlete - Stories and Secrets of Adventure Sports Icons

Episode Transcript
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Kush (00:04):
Welcome back friends.
This is your host.
Kush can deal.
Well with the each list athletepodcast.
Maybe tap into stories andsecrets off.
peak performance.
And today's show.
We traveled to the remotemountains of Nueva Leon.
Mexico.
Where we visit two trailblazingrock climbers.

(00:25):
Who have been quietly pushingthe frontiers of the sport.
And doing so while forming awonderful and loving
relationship with each other.
As well as the beautiful yetremote communities, the visit.
I'm so grateful for them forcoming on the show from the
living room of the caravan.
And I'm sure they had to hustleto find the best wifi.

(00:47):
To make this possible, given theremoteness of their location.
Maggie and Chuck Odette.
54 and 68 respectively.
Are a Testament to pursuing.
Passion over competitiveness.
And embracing climbing as alifelong learning journey.
They both climbed five, 14 and99.5%.

(01:08):
I'll create an rock-climbing.
And have so much wisdom to sharewith the.
Emphasis on diligentpreparation.
And mindful lifestyle choices.
They share insights intomaintaining health, strength and
vitality in older age.
From a holistic perspective.
Including the importance ofnutrition.

(01:30):
And body maintenance.
This is also for you climbing.
And traveling couples.
Check-in Maggie used to run acouples climbing clinic and have
some fun nuggets to keep yourrelationships.
Vibrant yet purposeful whilebeing on the road.
Excited to dive into this.
Conversation and share all thefun things that came out of

(01:53):
this.
If you enjoy the show, pleasedrop me a note and let me know.
What you think.
I'm at.
Kush at each list, athlete dotgo, or just drop me a DM on my
social media handles.
Hello.
Chuck and Maggie, or should Isay.
Hola.
Since you guys are in, inMexico, curious, what brings you

(02:15):
to Mexico?
Where in Mexico are you?
we're in El Salto.
which is, slightly south ofMonterey, Mexico.
and what brought us here is the,the survivable winter weather.
rarely do you see freezingtemperatures and the daytime
temps are 60s Fahrenheittypically on the average this

(02:37):
time of year.
that's what we were after,somewhere we could survive the
winter.
Although we've had

Maggie (02:42):
some 80 degree days.

Kush (02:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
80 degree days are great for,catching sun and, doing yoga,
outside, and, colder days are,better for, good friction and
for, climbing hard.
Typically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Excellent.
And sounds like you are here inthe winter.

(03:04):
And, El Salto in Mexico makesfor good winter climbing, and
I'm guessing this is part ofyour, seasonal migration, so to
speak, as you, as you travel todifferent, different climbing
areas based on conditions.
Yes.

Maggie (03:19):
Yeah, definitely.
We, we don't like to freeze.
And we also don't like to fry.
Yeah, we definitely travel.
we follow the weather, I guesswould be the way to put it.

Kush (03:33):
I think that sounds like a good balance.
And I think every once in awhile, you know, one has to,
climb in suboptimal conditionswhere it might be a bit warm or,
it might be a bit cold.
What kind of climbing are youguys doing in, El Salto?
And is that your favorite styleof, the sport?

Chuck (03:51):
this is our first time here.
We've never been here before, soit was an experimental trip, to
figure out if one, we like it,and two, if it's something we
want to do in future winters.
the climbing is, limestone,sport climbing, and, it's,

(04:11):
honestly, it's better if you'remore of a technical climber.
Because most of the terrain is,vertical to gently overhanging.
there are a couple caves, butthey're pretty limited in the
number of routes.
and, we've spent most of ourtime in the four months that
we've been here in, in thecouple of caves that are here.

(04:33):
And, so we pretty much climbedjust about everything we can
climb or everything we want toclimb in the four months, so
whether or not it'll be a futurestop will be, is something we'll
have to think about.

Kush (04:47):
Four months sounds like a juicy, long tenure to spend in
in the remote mountains ofMonterrey, Mexico.
I was.
in the same place, a few yearsago, I think right before COVID
and, I combined a trip to ElSalto with, uh, Potrero Chico.
And while, yes, I absolutelyadored El Salto and not just for

(05:11):
the climbing, but also the vibeand the community and, the
beauty and the culture of theplace.
I.
It couldn't last beyond threeweeks.
And it could be also because asmuch as I like to think that I
may still have some of that dirtback climber in me, I do spend
the majority of my time in, in abig city in San Francisco.

(05:32):
So yes, I'll have to build thatstamina and, come back to,
because unlike you guys, Whileyou guys are finishing business
over there.
I mostly have unfinishedbusiness.
So I have projects to get backto.
And I think I might've seenmaybe one client that you guys
might've done one of your manyclients.
I think there was that, therewas, there's a really steep
climb in, the Tekelode cave.

(05:53):
I forget the name.
It's this classic 12 C and Ispent maybe Nosferatu.
Nosferatus.
Yeah.
congratulations on sending thatamongst all of the other,
things.
Taking a quick step back, we'dlove to know where are you guys
from and, how old are you and,what did you have for, breakfast

(06:15):
today?

Maggie (06:15):
who goes first?
I'll go first.
I am from Michigan originally.
I am 54 years old.
And I've been climbing since Iwas 28, so what is that?
26 years now.
It was February.
Yeah, 26 years I've beenclimbing.
and what did we have forbreakfast?

(06:36):
We had eggs.
We had eggs for breakfast.
Not very exciting.
Lots of

Chuck (06:42):
huevos in Mexico.

Kush (06:44):
Lots of huevos in Mexico.
eggs may not Always be exciting,but they are a good standby and,
I'm often also eating, a lot ofeggs.
You have been following this, Iwould say this nomadic climbing
lifestyle if I may for sometime.
Would love to hear a little bitmore about how did you guys get

(07:06):
started with climbing full time?
And what were you doing beforeyou were climbing full time?

Maggie (07:14):
Do you want Chuck to tell you how old he is first?
Because he's really

Kush (07:18):
old.
Actually, you're right.
I forgot that part of thequestion.
Yes, sure.
Yo

Chuck (07:22):
soy sesenta y ocho años.
Sesenta

Kush (07:27):
y ocho años.
Eres muy joven, en anos deperros

Maggie (07:35):
Yeah,

Chuck (07:43):
yeah.
I also came from Michigan.
but, ironically, neither Maggieor I ever met while we were both
in Michigan.
Growing up anyway.

Maggie (07:54):
you were like a grown up when I was a kid.

Kush (07:57):
Funnily enough, I also spent a little bit of time in
Michigan, a tiny bit, and Ididn't meet you guys either.
Okay, great.
you guys are Michigan nativesand, at some point you became
climbers and at some point youstarted living the climbing
dream, climbing full time.
At what point did you guysfigure out just climbing and

(08:20):
living a normal life was notmaybe enough or you were looking
for something more and youdecided to switch to climbing
full time?
Oh,

Chuck (08:32):
that's the advantage of getting really old is you have
this thing called retirement.
So we geared everything towardthat moment to make it happen as
early as we could.
For me, it was 59 and a half andthat made baggie for 45.
So we just banked as much moneyas we could and saved like mad

(08:55):
for, the last, I don't know,maybe four or five years.
so we cut back on climbing.
we still climbed and trained,but we cut back on our climbing
and worked hard and saved evenharder.
And, the company I was workingfor, which was Petzl had a
pretty good retirement program.
And I invested heavily in that,and by the time I hit 59 and a

(09:19):
half, I felt like we could, goto the road full time, and we
did.
Yeah.

Maggie (09:24):
Yeah, we, I lived in Michigan still until I was 40,
almost 40.
we met later in life, and bothhave had, lifetimes of climbing,
basically, before we met oneanother.
Yeah.
at, the Rocktoberfest event inthe Red River Gorge in 2007,
which was also, it coincidedwith the Petzl rock trip.

(09:48):
That particular year.
so he was there for work and Iwas there just because living in
Michigan, the red is your homecrag, six hours is nothing to
drive for a weekend.
And, and we met in 2007, but wedidn't actually enter into a
relationship until 2009.
And by that time you were, what,51 or 52?

(10:15):
somewhere in there.
yeah, and I was 39, I think.
we had a lot of time to thinkabout the role that we wanted
climbing to play in our livesbefore we ever met each other.
And then when we did, one of thefirst conversations we had was
he asked me how I would feelabout going on a really long

(10:36):
road trip.
And I said, Yeah, I'd love it.
And he said, No, really, howwould you really feel about it?
life would not be like, so easyall the time.
And would you be okay with that?
and, but it was, I think it wasa good foundational beginning to
this relationship, because it'sworked out pretty well.
Absolutely.

Kush (10:55):
this was a bonus because you answered another question
that I was going to come to,which is, which is how you guys
met, but before, before I, I getthere.
So let's say, so you guys wereliving in different places and
maybe, living a lifestyle, whichis closer to the Monday to
Friday lifestyle.
And at some point, Chuck, youretired from what you were doing

(11:16):
full time, but Maggie, that.
Were you also retiring from whatyou were doing or was it a more
conscious, conscious changewhere you were like, Hey,
whatever I'm doing with my dayto day is, not what I'm seeking
for the next stage of my life.
And you decided to, get on thesame, path as, as Chuck.
so

Maggie (11:33):
I had, when we met just a couple of years before we met,
I had actually already made amajor lifestyle change because I
didn't feel like I was gettingthe opportunity to climb often
enough.
So I had a really good job, fulltime job in management and, I
quit that job.

(11:54):
and started working part time atthe climbing gym and a yoga
studio, both two part time jobs.
Okay.
so that I had a little bit morefreedom in my schedule.
Well, and so that the work I wasdoing was more closely aligned
with what I love to do.
so when we met that those werethe jobs that I had and I

(12:18):
actually was in the backgroundin my mind trying to plan how to
move, leave Michigan and movesomewhere.
In the Southwest, but I didn'treally have a fully formulated
plan yet, so that, seed wasalready there, but when he
retired, we, I moved to Utah in2009, so we could be together,

(12:42):
and so he retired in 2015, so wedid have some, that many years
of planning together when itcame down to it, so I don't know
if that answers your question.

Kush (12:54):
understood because, because for you, for Chuck, it
was, let's say a more,definitive event.
And for you, Maggie sounds likeyou had consciously been, been
moving your lifestyle to do thethings that you cared more
about.
Which is right.
Which is moving into doingsomething which was closer to,

(13:16):
to, to climbing and thengradually shifting to a point
where you could, shift to, toclimbing full-time.
Yeah.
And you already spoke about howyou guys met and another, tiny
bit of coincidence.
My last time climbing at the Redwas also at that same event, so

(13:36):
I was already living inCalifornia, but I took a couple
of over stoked friends from hereand Came down to Slade to attend
that same thing.
That's a rock trip.
It was funny quite the fun eventI mean we had all these I guess
iconic Climbers come from allover.
It was really fun to, partake.

(13:58):
And yeah, great to know that youguys are out there, uh, finding
chemistry within, uh, all ofthat, all of that, uh, wonderful
climbing, talking a little bitabout, uh, your climbing itself.
You guys mentioned when youstarted climbing, were you guys
always sporty and athletic anddo you think you guys are

(14:21):
naturally.
gifted as climbers.
I'm wondering, how did youdiscover the sport and what kept
you going with the sport?

Chuck (14:30):
by today's standards, I think we both started way too
late to be gifted.
the young kids today aredevelop, developing the
kinesthetic sense for climbingat almost as soon as they're
walking.
And for us, it was both asadults.
So developing that kinestheticprocess takes quite a bit longer

(14:53):
and, my start came, through a,through an alpine background.
So I took an outdoor recreationclass in college and as part of
that class, I did a ropes courseand that rope course led me to
investigate this idea of maybegoing out west and actually
experiencing actualmountaineering and learning how

(15:15):
to do it safely and properlybecause there were no gyms back
then.
And, so I took a Paul Petzlcourse in the Tetons and spent
six weeks there.
learning how not to kill myselfin the mountains.
And, that led to eventually morealpine objectives throughout
that early adulthood.

(15:35):
And eventually I figured outthat I liked, through the help
of a friend who was an avid rockclimber, I liked the rock
climbing pitches the most.
and hated the slogging and thelong hikes and the snow
crossings and the ice climbingand objective dangers.
I just like to climb rock andthis friend told me about the

(15:57):
city of rocks and basically saidyou can drive a car right up to
the base of a rock and get outand start rock climbing and I
made him.
Take me to this place and showme this, show me these rocks and
from then on I became more andmore hooked on the idea of just
rock climbing, the physicalityand so on.
But you were always

Maggie (16:17):
an athlete

Chuck (16:18):
too.
Yeah, I mean I had a competitivesports background in high school
and college with baseball,football, all the usual Michigan
sports, baseball, football,swimming.

Maggie (16:30):
You went to college on a baseball scholarship.
Yeah.

Chuck (16:34):
One sided sport.
Not quite, doesn't quitetranslate to climbing so well,
but the training ethic and thewhole idea behind being
regimented about, diet andexercise and whatever else
training you can do to supportthat final outcome.

Kush (16:52):
Chuck, I am with you on the, on climbing being the
highlight and, the main courseand, all of the effort that it
takes to the crag being theeffort.
I feel I'm a bit of a misfithere in California because
climbing mountains and trackclimbing and a bit of Alpine,
that is the name of the game.

(17:12):
And, to me, I've always beenmostly just motivated with the
idea of the climbing itself.
And then I'm like, Hey, if Iwant to go hiking, then I can go
on a hike.
And, and you, Maggie, what isyour, story of coming into,
climbing?
I have a

Maggie (17:28):
little bit more of a modern story.
I basically was on a trip, forwork, a trip to Sedona, Arizona.
I was in Arizona for work and Iwent to Sedona while I was there
and saw people climbing therejust from the road.
I was driving and I saw peopleclimbing and thought, Oh man,
that looks really cool.
I want to try that.
And when I came back toMichigan, I told my mom, about

(17:51):
my trip and for my birthday thatyear, my 28th birthday, she got
me a starter package at aclimbing gym.
so my first climbing experiencewas in a gym.
but that quickly.
quickly changed.
after I think I'd gone to thegym three times when I hooked up

(18:11):
with a group of people to go tothe Red for a weekend, and then
in my background before that, Iwas always into endurance or
endurance sports.
I was a runner from the age ofseven distance runner.
I was also into mountain bikingand a little bit of skiing and

(18:31):
in Michigan water sports, youhave to water ski.
So lots of water skiing.
but I was always just reallymediocre at all of them.
I did them all, but in a reallymediocre fashion.
And I didn't get good at betterat climbing for a long time too.

Kush (18:50):
One thing I am trying to explore in this podcast is, some
of us who discover, these sportsthat we love later in life are
able to perhaps pour more loveand get the most out of them.
Bye.
Bye.
more back because perhaps we didnot get exposed or get spoon fed

(19:12):
climbing as toddlers and thereis more of that, hey, I don't
take this thing for grantedbecause I've had to earn it.
And I'm wondering if that hasbeen part of your experience as
you continue to climb and excelas perhaps more seasoned
athletes.

(19:32):
And also, if that is part ofyour drive to keep, training and
performing.

Chuck (19:39):
yeah, it's, I think, for us or for me particularly, it's
having started climbing later.
particularly just rock climbingor sport climbing later in life.
it, I pursued it more as a loveor passion, as opposed to a lot
of young climbers tend to bevery competitive and gauge their

(20:01):
performance based on what otherkids their age are doing.
And, as an adult, you're pastthat.
you're, especially an olderadult, you've got, you've,
you're well past that.
You've, you In fact, we have apretty good, a friend put it so
succinctly simply by sayingthat, just about the time you
think you're all that, someonecomes along and flashes your

(20:23):
project.
and you just hope she's morethan 12 years old.
so all ego, ego goes out thewindow at that point.
and that's one of the advantagesof being a senior climber, I
think, is we do it for thepassion as opposed to the
Because everyone else is doingit or because we want to be
competitive at it.
we just want, we just love beingout there and experiencing that

(20:47):
movement, that environment, thatoutdoor environment, and this
lifestyle that it leads to.
all those things come together,I think.

Kush (20:55):
Talking of lifestyle, what are some of the other, let's say
fringe benefits?
of being able to climb fulltime?

Maggie (21:05):
we're free to take the weekends off from climbing.
So we don't go to the crag onthe very most crowded days.
There's that.
We're able to design ourschedule a little bit more
easily or a lot more easily thanwhen we were working.
That's for sure.

Chuck (21:23):
Get to rest more, which is critical as an aging athlete.
So you can schedule, we schedulethree days a week for climbing,
Monday, Wednesday and Friday.
So we get actually more restthan we do time on the actual
rock climbing aspect.
Yeah.
And, I think, it also, we havethat ability to, sleep in, go to

(21:46):
bed early, sleep in if we want,have an extra rest day if we
need it.
we don't, we're not tied to anyschedule per se.
we don't have a work, a work,schedule that we have to be
somewhere at a certain time.
so it's truly a leisurelypursuit.

Maggie (22:04):
Also, climbing days.
We do have a schedule.
It's not like we just wake upand get to the crack whenever we
get there.
We definitely have a, a routineand a regimen that we try to
stick with.

Chuck (22:19):
Yeah, climbing days, we definitely have objectives.
we're not, it's not random orhaphazard.
We're not lazy.
We generally have goals andobjectives we're leaning towards
something we want to do another513 plus or another 14 minus or
ultimately that's, we're alwayslooking to push limits on those

(22:42):
days.

Kush (22:43):
Absolutely.
And we'll get a little bit into,the training and, the structure,
because I'm really curious to,dive into that.
But one thing I was justthinking of when you were
talking about, some of thatflexibility and the time to be
able to, to, to sleep better, totake rest days and all of that,
it actually made me think of howyou alluded to, being a child

(23:05):
athlete.
And I was thinking, when youwere a kid.
That's the other life stage whenyou get access to a lot of
sleep, a lot of, free time and alot of, let's say flexibility
to, to follow your, sport.
And that's funny now that youguys are retired, you're
circling back to that type oflifestyle where you can focus on
this thing, single mindedly.

(23:26):
Yeah.

Chuck (23:26):
Definitely.
Yeah.
And one, one other component isthat we pretty much narrowed it
down to what we're passionateabout.
So these other peripheral thingsthat we used to think we wanted
to do or dabble with are nolonger part of the, program
really.
we just, we're focused onclimbing because that's what we
love

Kush (23:46):
Yes.
Just, one, one of the lastquestions on the topic of just
your, your chosen lifestyle isif somebody was to contemplate,
doing what you're doing, whichis, not just, climb full-time,
but also climb full-time on theroad and travel to quote unquote
exotic places like Monterey,Mexico, what could be maybe one
of the things that you couldadvise them on maybe the things

(24:08):
you did well with embracing thislifestyle or maybe one.
or two things you would dodifferently to set yourself up a
little bit better?

Chuck (24:19):
the first thing that comes to mind is, we treat our
climbing trips and planning likevisualizing a red point of a
hard project.
we actually try in our mindsbefore we make the trek to
somewhere like Monterey, and ina place we know very little
about, we do a lot of research.
we do, we actually visualizebeing there, what we need as far

(24:43):
as Like we came here with almostfour months worth of food stored
in our van, and, all the thingswe knew we could get across the
border we brought.
so we planned things out.
money, we had to set aside aspecific amount of money for All
the expenses of border crossingand paying for additional

(25:04):
insurance and so on.
And, the autopista, traveling onthe autopista and, camp fees
here to have a safe place to, tohave our camper and know that
it'll be safe when we go to thecrag for the day.
all those things we planned onand prepared for.
And, and, so I think.

(25:25):
preparation of our automobile,things like that, that people
really, we see a lot of youngclimbers who, in fact, right now
in the campground we're in,which is very small.
There are two vehicles parkedhere, people who came down and
their vehicles died and now theycan't leave.
They don't.
Or they've left and theirvehicle's still here.

(25:45):
I think that the two thingsthat, that, or the two or three
things that people do.
or like we do that I think arenecessary for road tripping are,
proper planning, propercapitalization.
that's one of the biggest thingswe see on as far as failures
under capitalization, notplanning ahead on how much money

(26:07):
they need.

Maggie (26:08):
Okay, good.
the comfort level of our livingsituation.
we, they really prioritized whenwe went on the road from day one
that, we need to have a good, abed is very important.
We need to have, our sheltersituation, where we need to tow
our, I guess this gets back tothe vehicle thing, but we need a

(26:31):
reliable vehicle that we payattention to and maintain well
to tow our home.
and yeah.

Chuck (26:38):
we're like here we had 70 mile an hour winds when we first
got here in our first month, andin some pretty, pretty severe
weather.
So you have to prepare for that.
And we see people in tents thatare.
pretty disappointed when there'sthree or four days of bad
weather in a row.
We're too old for that.
Yeah.

(26:59):
Proper shelter is a key thing inroad tripping.
Being on the road full time.

Kush (27:05):
Got it.
Got it.
Noted that, you have been in,And, El Salto for four months by
choice and not because your,your vehicle died down.
You're still waiting for, AAA.
and yes, I can agree more, thevalue of a good night's sleep.
And how that is essential to beable to function and be

(27:26):
energized.
So that's a good investment.
Any other ways in which you havebeen able to sustain spending
this time in Mexico?
outside of climbing?
Are you guys doing any otherkind of, pursuit, either
recreationally?
I know, there's been someSpanish, immersion, Because I
know that being on the road fora long time, and climbing is one

(27:47):
of those sports where most daysyou go to the crag, you're not
sending, you're, you're, buttingyour head against the wall and
you're trying hard and everyonce in a while you get
progress.
So sometimes when one is notfinding all of that progress at
the wall itself, one has to findways to stay energized and
motivated and wondering if youhave tapped into some.

(28:11):
routines to be able to, to stay,energized?

Maggie (28:14):
I think maybe, no, we study Spanish like maybe an hour
a day almost.
And then I actually knit a lot.
I knit sweaters and things.
but he actually watches a lot ofleft wing YouTube videos.

Kush (28:34):
So

Maggie (28:39):
there's that.
and then we do yoga on restdays, but honestly, we're not
the kind of people who reallyget bored easily.
Just being alive is likeexciting and it's not boring.
So yeah, we have a dog we playwith.

Chuck (28:57):
I do yoga on rest days, pretty much every rest day.
I practice martial arts, which Ienjoy.
and then, when wifi, which isoften, we're in remote places
where we don't have the phonesignal or wifi.
we have a huge library of books,so we'll read a lot.

(29:19):
I'll read a lot.
Yeah,

Maggie (29:21):
we both read a lot when we don't have

Chuck (29:23):
internet.
Yeah, and the Spanish thing, Iwish I would have started it
sooner.
once, once we arrived here and Irealized how difficult it is to
communicate in rural Mexico.
and you mentioned this beforeabout, getting immersed in the
culture as well and, having goodlocal experiences with

(29:43):
Indigenous people.
I think that's important everyplace we go, to, have that
understanding and at least becordial and to be able to
communicate.
And I was surprised at howdifficult that it was.
And I wish I had started sooner.
It's starting to feel betternow.
I'm starting to understand moreand communicate, a little bit

(30:05):
better.
and that's fun.
Another fun part about travelingto new places is getting those
new experiences with the peoplearound you.
Places like Alabama.

Maggie (30:15):
We speak that language.

Chuck (30:17):
That was a cultural experience in itself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We spent a winter there once andthat was, it was amazing.
It was eye opening.

Maggie (30:26):
Yeah, but we didn't need Duolingo there.

Chuck (30:28):
But my liberal leanings were a little bit interesting.
And we took it as a, we viewedit more as an educational
opportunity to share ourthoughts in a mindful manner,
knowing full well that thepeople that were around the
overwhelming majority were veryconservative.

(30:49):
But if we could just show themthat we were compassionate and
that we weren't.
there to do harm to anyone, andthat we had these different
views, but we could stillcommunicate, maybe share ideas,
and yeah.

Kush (31:02):
I have two quick reflections on that I started
climbing in the southeast of theU.
S., and I have, spent timeclimbing in Alabama.
I think one, one of my earlyclimbing trips was in a town
called Gadsden.
I think it's, single pitsandstone climbing, maybe an,
yeah, and, fortunately or what,or not, that was early in my,

(31:25):
stay in the U S and I think Iwas politically quite ignorant.
So as a brown man, if I facedany racism there, I was,
blissfully ignorant.
And to be honest, I don't knowif I actually faced any racism
itself, because I think maybe mydemeanor was just off excitement
and curiosity.

(31:46):
So maybe I would disarm people.
And, and my second is I lovethis about something like
climbing where You don't just,stop in a town like that to buy
gas and chips, you actually goand spend time there and you
spend hours, days, weeks, and inyour case, entire seasons.
And that allows us to sink intothe local milieu and understand

(32:10):
people at a much deeper levelgetting back to climbing a
little bit, you guys, climb, anastoundingly high level.
You guys are both 514 climbers,which is like maybe the half
percent or one percent of,climbers out there.
What are some of your, prouderaccomplishments?
And those need not be just thehighest grades you've climbed,

(32:32):
but what are maybe somememorable, sins or, things that
you guys smile whenever youthink about them?
I think

Maggie (32:40):
killer bees.
So for me, one of those would benot again, as people always say,
not the hardest grade we'veclimbed.
But, for me, I think climbingthe street in the hurricane
called killer bees.
and mainly because I think itwas probably the first really.
Hard route that we workedtogether, because, and it

(33:04):
probably means more for me thanit does for Charlie because for
most of the time we've climbedtogether, he has outclimbed me
by a lot, like grade wise, ittook me, it's taken me a long
time to catch up with him.
So that was like, I think thefirst time that we, that there
was a project level route forboth of us.

(33:24):
that we worked simultaneouslyAnd it took me a season and a
half basically.
So it was a long process whichis, that always makes them
memorable regardless.
What about you?

Chuck (33:38):
I would say probably the most memorable accomplishment
was climbing the Cassine Ridgeon Denali, back in my Alpine
days.
And, but in the fortune thingwas though, it ended up in a
good experience and a successfulexperience.
It was, and it was a bigobjective.
it also opened my eyes enough torealize that I wasn't immortal

(34:03):
and that I could very well havedied on this.
this expedition.
very fortunate that I didn't.
it was one of those thingswhere, it could have ended, it
could have ended my life.
And I got out of it andsurvived.
Summited and vowed that I wasgoing to rock climb more after

(34:25):
that point, that, that I wantedto live to see a hundred years
old.
I was only 34 when I did theCassine.
And, so that was probably one ofthe most memorable overall
things, but I would say.
as far as actual rock climbingthat I enjoy now, when I was,

(34:46):
64, 4 years ago, I did, theline, a line in Maple Canyon, in
the pipe dream called T-Rex,which I consider the king line
of the cave.
it, it was a goal when I firstsaw it that I always wanted to,
try and climb.
And, and it happens to be one ofthe hardest ones I've ever done.

(35:06):
and it did it at age 64.
that's pretty memorable.
Yeah.

Kush (35:10):
Badass, from both of you.
what I glean is, for you,Maggie, it was, that line that
you did, Killer Bees, it was, itwas a combination of a line of
two things.
One is, one is that it took youa lot of work.
And anytime you put a lot ofwork into something, that, Just
becomes more cherished.
And second, that you guys got toclimb it together, which, and

(35:35):
then, and for you, Chuck, It'sfunny, earlier we talked about
hating long hikes to the cragand here you are with one of
your more memorable climbingtrips being a big alpine
expedition.
Yeah, but yeah, I think it'ssimilar for me.
I seem to prefer sport climbing,but some of my, Some of my most
profound memories are trips toTuolumne, in Yosemite, and then,

(35:58):
trips, monitoring trips to likeplaces like Bolivia because I
think also because those thingsare really hard for me.
I think I'm not gifted.
So because I have to dig deeperto do scary, difficult things.
I think it's, they suddenlybecome more rewarding.
What are some of your, goals nowwith climbing?
you're in, El Salto now.

(36:19):
Have you been pursuing hardprojects?
Has it been lots of, On sitingand quick red points and, and
then also as you are, as you'rein the middle of this trip, how
are you able to, keep yourselffit and, motivated and make sure
that you continue to, sustainyour reserves of power and,

(36:43):
those kinds of things.

Chuck (36:44):
first of all, this is, normally this time of year would
be bouldering somewhat becauseof the short days, shorter days
and, and also the need torebuild the power, then we'll
need to do harder sport routes,when, during the better seasons.
so normally we'd be in Waco orSouthern Utah or.

(37:04):
Somewhere we can boulder andtrain and it's gotten to the
point where my body is notholding up well in that
environment.
In other words, I'm gettingpunished.
bouldering.
we decided this year to do thetrip to Monterey and just rock
climb.
and we didn't really have anyspecific projects.

(37:25):
We wanted to just experience asmuch of the area as we could.
Not necessarily on siting, butfinding, mini projects.
Ones that we can do hopefully ina shorter amount of time, that
aren't at our complete limit,but pushing that limit.
And, and we've been able to dothat pretty successfully here.

(37:45):
and do supplemental training aswell, pull ups and hangboard
stuff and ring push ups and, wehave varied routines that we do.
And, so that helps us get thatfitness level up.
we don't take the winterclimbing too seriously, in other
words, because days are shorter,conditions can vary a lot.
And not always to our liking.

(38:08):
we can't rely on them, in otherwords.
it's just more kind of a fun,mini project phase.
Yeah,

Maggie (38:15):
we definitely step it back in the winter, usually.
a lot, one thing about climbinghere is a lot of the routes that
we've gotten on have prettydefined cruxes.
So for me, like I look at thatas like my bouldering, I'm going
to do this route.
It's easy to hear.
And then I have to turn it onand do this powerful boulder

(38:36):
problem.
And that's the part I'm going tofocus on because that's what's
going to help me the most for myfuture goals.
yeah.

Kush (38:45):
Makes sense.

Chuck (38:46):
we've had one other season like this where we just
rock climbed, and it was duringCOVID.
when we went to our moat area inArizona and climbed.
And, it ended up working outpretty well.
We had a good year after thatseason.

Maggie (38:59):
Yeah, we didn't get hurt was the main thing.
Yeah.
The main thing in the winter isnot to get hurt.
Or

Chuck (39:04):
discouraged.
Yeah.

Maggie (39:06):
Yeah, but I feel like we're in maintenance mode here
more than anything, which isokay.
So we've got a couple of monthsto, um, kind of shrink, climb
our way back into hard routeshape before we approach our
summer goals.

Kush (39:23):
Great.
And, sure.
and to what you said, Maggie,one, usually people say
bouldering is a better way totrain for power, but can one can
also choose certain routes,maybe routes that have cruxes
that are hard for oneself and,and try to, keep your reserves
up and, unlock those kinds ofmoves and which could be, I
don't know, somewhat of areasonable proxy for not being

(39:45):
able to, to boulder as much.
Yeah.
What are some of those, goalsthat you have for, for this
year, you guys with climbingand, to add to that, what's
going to be my next question,what are some of your other
goals broadly for the next, fewyears, things that you are
motivated by and would like toaccomplish?

Chuck (40:04):
I would like to do, and I've been, it's a theme that
I've had going for the lastcouple of years, but I'd like to
do one more 514 before I die.

Kush (40:14):
I've been saving one or two.
I've never done a 514, but, youguys talking to people like you,
I think ignites, that little bitof, fire in me to, to go and
work up to a 514 someday.
Yeah,

Chuck (40:26):
totally possible.
Totally possible.
Yeah.
but, yeah, it's, and to do that,we're going back to Maple Canyon
this summer.
And, we've opted to camp host.
there for the summer season,which guarantees us five months
of staying in the canyon and,with a little bit of volunteer

(40:46):
work that's not too grueling.
and, I have a project therethat's been easily over a decade
long project.
I voted off a long time ago thatI was too old to be able to do
this particular route and, Now Ithink it's possible for me if I
approach it with, some of thethings I've learned over the

(41:07):
past couple of years about, howto become less attached and more
focused on resting.
and, I think I can do thisproject that, as it's repelled
me, literally kicked me off.
injured me on a couple serious,semi serious injuries, after

(41:30):
being really close to redpointing.
So I've, like I said, I'vewritten it off now.
I think that I need to, just getit done.
So my hope is to get on thisthing this summer and I've got
five months to try to get itdone.
It's only 13D, but it has twoextensions that I've done off of
harder starts.

(41:51):
or a slightly harder start, and,but suits, suited me better
because it was more powerendurance.
This route is more powerful, andit has a really powerful crux
that, that is always giving metrouble.
And, if I can get through that,it opens up these two other
extensions for two potential14As.

(42:11):
it's possible.
If I can, I always qualify if Ican stay healthy.
that, I can still do one.

Kush (42:17):
It sounds like you're right on your way.
And because you, the, the cracksuper well, the style and you
have done the latter half orlatter halves of the route, so
to speak, except the, the 13 Dbits.
So once you unlock that, itmight net you not one, but two
different 514, then that wouldbe, that would be amazing.

(42:39):
And what about you?
What about you, Maggie?

Maggie (42:42):
at that same crag, I have, there's a 13C that I saved
for one of the last routes forme to do there because it's a
different style than most of therest of the routes in there.
It's definitely, big moves, I'mnot big, and, very sustained,

(43:03):
big moves, hard crops.
So I think it's actually harderfor me than, some of the other
routes there that are hardergrades.
It doesn't have as many reallygood rests on it.
I'm really good at resting.
We both are.
That's our, if we were going tohave a quote unquote climbing
superpower, that would be it.
Resting on route.
But this route doesn't have asmany opportunities to do that.

(43:24):
So I have that one that I'd liketo do.
And I'd like to, I was onehanging it when we were there a
couple years ago.
So I have the beta, it's just amatter of actually making it
happen.
And then, There's another routein there that's like my dream
route.
It's called Divine Fury.
it's a 14b that I honestly don'tknow if I'll be able to do it,

(43:48):
but that not knowing if I can dosomething is usually what makes
me want to try.
So I'm gonna try.
We'll see.
And hopefully Charlie will dohis thing super fast and be done
with that rig and then comeclimb on divine with me too.

Kush (44:05):
That's great.
Sounds like you guys both haveexciting projects and
aspirations to keep you goingthrough a hard, cruel winter.
Not to get too cheesy.
We talked a little bit about,how you train for power in the,
in the winter and how you havesome routines with doing yoga.

(44:25):
How are some of the other wayswith which you train and are you
guys self coached?
Do you have, do you work with acoach and any, any other
routines you think which havebeen exceptionally, useful to
you to, to keep up your climbingtraining?

Maggie (44:43):
he's my coach.
we don't, our training is notwhat anyone would call
conventional.
I think, we do things from timeto time.
We do some things, at the end ofclimbing days, sometimes we'll
come back and do somesupplemental stuff, but really
basic like pull ups and thenlike pushups and opposition

(45:04):
stuff.
We will, when we're not in a redpoint phase, we'll sometimes do
some, a little bit ofhangboarding, but not what most.
People say they do when theytalk about hangboarding these
days.
it's not some long drawn outregimen.
we just do a little bit here andthere.

(45:25):
we do have blood flowrestriction bands and we'll use
those.
Sometimes we go through phasesof using those.
I actually think with ourlifestyle, those are really a
great tool because we areclimbing three days a week, but
then I still feel like we canuse the blood flow restriction,
and do some hangs and some otherexercises maybe on a Saturday or

(45:48):
even sometimes, on a Tuesday,even though we're climbing
Monday and Wednesday, but withthe blood flow restriction, I
feel like the recovery is.
So much better.
we're not in a full onperformance phase.
I think we can get away withthat.
yeah,

Chuck (46:05):
I don't know.
What do you I think it's just amatter of doing mostly climbing.
Yeah.
and trying to focus theclimbing.
the training is the climbing andthen resting and let it sink in,
let it recover.
The supplemental stuff we doafterwards, it's only because we

(46:26):
feel like our day's been shortor we didn't get the full
workout that we want to do tocrowding at the crag or weather
or whatever reason we'll comeback and do supplemental stuff
and it's usually pretty varied.
we don't have a specificroutine.
it's, to me, it's more like acrossfit routine, so you're not

(46:47):
really, you're anything to breakdown muscle mass when you're my
age, that, so protein, ingestingprotein and hydrating well, and
then recovering well, is, Youget this gradual improvement and
it's really gradual.
it's like super minute, but it,it is definitely progressing

(47:09):
gradually, through performanceand rest.
And if you try to force it anyother way, bodies my age just
don't respond.
They, my goal is to try tomaintain as much muscle mass as
I can at this day, this age,and, and make it applicable
toward climbing.

(47:29):
That's the best I can hope for.
I don't know anybody that cantrain me.
I get, I read a lot of amazingideas that I wish I would have
known.
20, 30 years ago, or even 10years ago, that just aren't
applicable now.
I see kids, younger climbersdoing these amazing things to,
to get fit for climbing.

(47:50):
And I wish I could do thosethings, but if I did those
things, I wouldn't be able toclimb for a month.
so it's, It's self, yeah, it'sdefinitely self taught.
I don't have anyone to coach meon this per se.
Yeah.
there's only a couple olderclimbers out there that are
still, performing well.
yeah, like Bill Ramsey, and He'syounger.
He's actually younger, butstill, it, it's applicable in a

(48:14):
way.
and Lee Sheftel who is a decadeolder than I am.
I can garner Some ideas fromhim, but that's far and few.

Kush (48:22):
Absolutely.
whichever ways you guys havelearned and maybe you
particularly, Chuck, on beingable to coach yourself and,
understand how your bodyresponds to different kinds of
stimuli seem to be working.
One thing that you touched on,which I thought I would ask.
a little bit more about if youwere to jog back in time, let's

(48:45):
say 20 years, or maybe 25 years.
Is there something you think youshould have started doing or
stopped doing, which might havehelped you improve upon your
already stellar, uh, timingperformance?

Chuck (49:03):
I think I probably would have bouldered more, And spent,
three or four months of a winterbouldering and training
specifically power.
I think that's, I did that inthe gym because living in
northern Utah, your rockclimbing season is over in late
fall and doesn't start againuntil early spring.

(49:25):
So you're forced into the gym orinto training mode.
and in, in essentiallybouldering, in on plastic if
it's available.
but I definitely would havespent, more time focused on the
training aspect.
Got it.
So

Kush (49:40):
maybe, maybe bouldered more or continue bouldering as a
part of your training.
What about like things likehangboarding?
And, do you think if you haddone some of that supplemental
stuff?
over the years that could havehelped?

Chuck (49:54):
I don't think I would have just because I, a couple of
things.
I think my, one is I have pianoplaying fingers.
They're, I don't know that Icould make them sausage fingers
like a lot of really good crimpclimbers can or people that can
hang on hang boards really well.
The, probably more reason why Ishould have been doing that, but

(50:16):
I just hate it.
It's not something I enjoy.
Yeah.
I used to do a lot of campustraining.
So campus sport, I love thatbecause it was a little bit more
engaging and, a little more funto me.
I can make it a game and not asboring as just hanging on
something, which to me is anticlimbing.

Maggie (50:39):
But also we both started late enough that we were beyond
that point of developing thatbase tendon strength that you
can work on up till you're like25 or whatever it is.
So I feel like anytime along theway, that we've dedicated to

(50:59):
training finger strength just iswhat it is.
We were, we're not able, likethat baseline tendon strength,
we would just have to be hangingconstantly to maintain.
Doing more of it when we were 30really wouldn't make a
difference for today, if thatmakes sense.

Kush (51:23):
having said that, you guys, from what I have read,
made rapid progress, even thoughyou guys started climbing later.
You guys went from climbing,maybe 12s and 13s to climbing
514s in some, in a veryimpressive span of time, any
specific things you think helpedyou attain that, progression

(51:48):
quickly?

Chuck (51:49):
I think for me, there were two things that really
kicked it into gear.
number one was just the totalfocus on it instead of having
all these peripheral sports andwanting to pursue mountain
objectives and wanting to beable to run long distances and
pedal my bike, all those thingsI once I got those out of my

(52:10):
system in focus, specifically onclimbing, that was, one big
moment of change.
The other one was nutrition.
just, I had a really good friendwho was, had gone through
medical school and opted not tobecome a doctor.
he was in his residency anddecided he wanted to pursue more
climbing and less education andless time being a medical

(52:35):
doctor.
and he became a good mentor tome, he was older, one of the few
people that were older than me,climbing, and he, I was talking
about the supplement, creatine,and I knew this person would
know, so I asked himspecifically about it, and he
said, no, just forget aboutthat, just focus on nutrition,

(52:58):
and I said, This is in the mid90s.
It goes, just focus onnutrition.
you can change your entiregenetic makeup with nutrition.
You can, and he recommended thebook, Enter the Zone, which is
balanced macronutrient diet.
And, and he started explainingit to me.
And this is a guy who rarelyeven talks to anyone.

(53:18):
He's very, subdued and quiet andmeditative.
And he just.
for a solid hour was in my earabout this.
and so I went right out andbought the book and started
practicing the diet and gotalmost immediate results.
my climbing went upexponentially.
My capacity for training went upexponentially and recovery,

(53:42):
happened a lot more quickly.
and to this day, I stillpractice a balanced
macronutrient diet for the mostpart.
But

Maggie (53:49):
now you take creatine too.

Chuck (53:51):
Yeah, I also take it.

Kush (53:52):
Can I get the name of that book again so I'll have it in
the show notes if people wantto,

Chuck (53:56):
it's it was published in the early 90s by Dr.
Barry Sears.
Enter the Zone.
And it's called Enter the Zone.
You can find it in secondhandbookshops everywhere.
It was during that bookshop.
That period of time when therewere a lot of fat, trendy diets,
most of which were detrimental

Maggie (54:15):
to most of them cause heart attacks.
And

Chuck (54:18):
it was really unfortunate that it came out when it did.
But the great part was thatBarry Sears was a biochemist.
So he approached diet andnutrition from a biochemical
aspect and the breakdown in thebody of what.
Yeah.
How carbohydrates and proteinsand fats work.
And it was also during that timethat everybody was doing low fat

(54:39):
diets, thinking that somehow wasgoing to make them better
athletes.

Maggie (54:43):
And there are newer versions of the, they've
updated, new books that arebased on the same science.
And it's really when it comesdown to it, it's a hormone
balancing diet.

Kush (54:55):
so what does, the diet that you guys.
practice today that allows youto reach, peak performance.
you mentioned you take somecreatine.
So yeah, I would love to hearabout, and from both of you,
supplementation that helps youguys and then, the core blocks
of your, food today.

Maggie (55:14):
we do things differently than one another now.
For a little bit, we were thesame, but I'm a 54 year old
woman and he's a 68 year oldman, so I've been going through
a lot of changes the last fewyears, and I've had to do a lot
of experimentation, and I thinkI finally have settled in, and

(55:36):
I'm not that far off from wherethe balanced macronutrient
intake that he eats.
But I definitely, focus more onfat on climbing days for energy.
And I probably eat a littlehigher carbohydrate.
He does, but still the focus ison trying to make sure I get
enough protein.
and we both do, some low dosecreatine.

(55:59):
we, use, full disclosure,PhysAdvantage supplements.
Eric Horst's company, we are on,the masters.
Team, for the brand.
and we both daily use thesupercharged collagen.
from Dvantage.
So we're doing, taking collagen,hydrolyzed collagen with vitamin
C.
and then what else?

(56:19):
Performance wise, we, use thephysio advantage indirect, the
bee route in Citraline malate,product.
It's a drink that's just, helpswith oxygen uptake in the
muscles.
and then.
we also a few years back startedusing beta alanine.
and that was on the advice of afriend who's super into research

(56:40):
and science and performancescience.
and that is something that Ithink really has had a positive
effect for both of us.
For sure.

Chuck (56:52):
Physiadvantage also makes a supplement called Crush.
That, is a capsule that you cantake actually out the crack,
about 20 to 30 minutes beforeyou start climbing.
So we'll warm up.
And then, just before we get onthe project, if, you can take a
Crush Capsule, they recommendtwo, I usually only take one,

(57:14):
and it's, it has, one of theingredients is caffeine.
The main ingredient.
And, but it also has, othersupplements in it that help
avoid the jitters that you getfrom a, like a typical high
caffeine dose.
Yeah.
So you're not, you don't feeljittery but you feel that kind
of, extra surge.

(57:34):
little snap.
Yeah, comes in handy.
A lot of times I'll take it atthe end of the day too, if I
don't, to maybe if I want togive it one more go, and I feel
like I could or should, I'lltake a creatine or a crush
capsule prior to, to, andusually wait 20 minutes, and

(57:54):
then I feel like going.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Maggie (57:58):
And then we do regular daily, like kind of the
Predictable ones.
Glucosamine, fish oil, vitaminC.
I take some herbal adaptogens asa post menopausal woman.
that kind of help with my energylevels and hormone balance as
far as that's concerned.
we take a lot of stuff, to behonest, we do.

(58:21):
Also, our diet isn't the mostvaried diet out there.
We don't eat a ton of,vegetables and fruits and
things, so a lot of themicronutrients we're getting
from our supplements rather thanfrom our food, which I know
somebody listening is going tobe like, Ew, but that's just
what we do.

Chuck (58:38):
It's not like we're seeking organic, although
there's, there's, that'sprobably a good idea.
And I would recommend it.
Low meat diets, if you're goingto eat meat, lean meat, like
chicken breast or salmon isideal.
Tilapia, we eat a lot oftilapia.
We eat a lot of tuna.

(59:00):
And I feel better on fat than,than I do on carbohydrates is
something I discovered.
in the balanced macronutrientaspect, I lean more toward fat
than carbohydrate to make upthe, the fuel for the fuel that
I need.
I find like almonds and fish oiland, What is it?
avocados, things like that, thatI, that are high fat tend to

(59:22):
fuel mes that's a fruit

Maggie (59:24):
We eat a fruit

Chuck (59:25):
I also ingest 150 grams of protein a day, so Yeah.
Which is, and I do about ahundred, which is double the
what?
The FDA, my, it's, it, I thinkit's really critical to fi stave
off sarcopenia, in later age.
Try to keep as much of themuscle mass as you can.
I think it's critical.

Kush (59:46):
Certainly.
And, your climbing performancespeaks for itself.
And, for those of us notwatching this on video, I will
say that, your hair looks great.
So, whatever the, the diet iscontributing to your climbing
and overall health and fitness,it's certainly not hurting,

(01:00:07):
knock on wood, your great hair.
So follow, Chuck and Maggie'sdiet for, for beautiful

Chuck (01:00:13):
hair.
I think the protein and thecollagen.

Maggie (01:00:17):
Yeah, the collagen is

Kush (01:00:18):
whoo!

Chuck (01:00:21):
And having, having some good genetics, too.
There's

Kush (01:00:23):
that.
Yes.

Maggie (01:00:25):
There's that.

Kush (01:00:26):
It's funny.
Have you guys ever had bloodwork done to identify what are
some of the things that youguys, do you guys do that on a
regular basis to ensure,

Chuck (01:00:35):
I do my annual physical about every five to 10 years.
And then I have blood work doneat that time.
I just had a physical.
With blood work two years ago.

Maggie (01:00:47):
Yeah, we're not like tracking Nutrients in our yeah,
we're not those people.
Yeah, I think biofeedback isprobably what we base most of
our choices on More thananything,

Chuck (01:01:02):
every time I see the doctor, it's just keep doing
whatever you're doing, just keepdoing that.

Kush (01:01:07):
Sure.
you guys are also pushingfrontiers.
Maybe you chuck where people,didn't know what was possible.
So I think people are probablysimply exalting at, your
performance levels.
And, partly I think they don'treally know what else you could

(01:01:29):
be doing because they're like,he's already climbing at the 0.
5 percentile and, is excelling.
and he is in his upper sixties,so we don't know what he could
be doing more.
And also in a sport, which isvery niche, this is not maybe
running.
Or something else where there'sbeen so much more science with

(01:01:54):
being able to keep people,performing.

Chuck (01:01:56):
Yeah, I agree.
It's, it's, but I, it's.
I can't imagine doing anythingelse.
I'm still, every day I get up, Iwant to go, I'm passionate about
rock climbing.
And even on my rest days whenI'm not climbing, I'm thinking
about climbing or a climb thatI'm specifically working on.
And I still have that desire andthat passion.

(01:02:17):
So I don't know that I wouldhave had it for anything else.
and I feel lucky that I've,stumbled across this, this
climbing thing.

Kush (01:02:26):
All, all is, pretty badass as far as I'm concerned,
inspiring in all kinds of ways.
Just moving, tracks a littlebit.
In the last few years, what newbelief, or behavior has improved
your life and would love ananswer from both of you.

Maggie (01:02:45):
Oh, okay.
for me, I think it's actuallysomething that actually came up
yesterday at the crack.
as I mentioned earlier, as a 54year old woman, things have
changed a lot in the last fewyears.
And, and that includes, thingsthat I'd never I don't want to
say it's the changes have beenreally fascinating.
and my body is very differentthan it once was, and it's very

(01:03:08):
different than it was just a fewyears ago, actually.
And, yesterday it came up, therewere a bunch of like young girls
at the crack, and I was justlike, Oh.
I'm not young anymore, But then,the thing that I've learned in
the past few years popped upinto my head and it was, it
really doesn't, can I sayfucking, it really doesn't

(01:03:29):
fucking matter.
I can do what I can do with thebody that I have.
And that to me is amazing.
And, It really, it's not that itdoesn't come up as a woman, the
way we're raised in this weirdsociety where we all compare
ourselves to each other andwhatnot.
And it's really easy to fallinto that looking around and

(01:03:53):
thinking, Oh, my body doesn'tlook like that anymore when it
may be used to.
and it's quite liberating andfun, actually.
When you really realize thatlooking like that doesn't mean
anything at all and what mattersis the function and the joy that

(01:04:21):
being able to move your body incertain ways and to be able to
do things that take strength andtake, technique and finesse and
all those other, things thataren't strength that come from
years of climbing and learning,and knowing that you're still
learning more of those things.

(01:04:42):
that is, that's probably thebiggest thing for me, just that
Knowledge that, aesthetics aretheir own thing that I can put
way over to the side and justthink, that person looks
amazing, but I can do amazingthings.

Kush (01:05:01):
There needs to be, like an affirmation poster made up which
says something like that.
Looking amazing versus doingamazing.
And just to add to what I saidearlier, you guys both look
amazing.
So I'm guessing that the, so theanswer, the question is Maggie

(01:05:22):
is this, belief that you havefound confidence in is being
able to find joy and.
Confidence in who you are andwhat you're able to do and get
away from a lot of the, uh, peercomparison that, uh, all of us

(01:05:44):
at some point or the other, wefall victim to.
I know I do all the time.

Maggie (01:05:49):
Yeah, and I actually think that what I'm trying to
say, and maybe not articulatingit very well, is more that It's
not a pure comparison anymore,I'm at the crag and I'm 54 years
old and the other women who arethere generally the other day

(01:06:11):
are in their 20s.
And so it's just not even it'snot relevant.
So I don't need to give.
It's not that I don't need togive the giving mental energy to
something like that is just sucha waste of time because it's not
relevant.
It doesn't matter.

(01:06:31):
what Matt, what should matter tome and what does matter to me is
that I feel healthy and I, havea high level of mobility.
and I.
I'm able to try really hard andthe body that I have now works

(01:06:51):
really well.
and I just being able toacknowledge that and give it the
respect that it deserves, I

Kush (01:06:59):
that, yeah, you articulate it very clearly.
I completely get it, which is,yeah, there's no reason to focus
on things that are not energypositive.
Yeah.
And, and that's great.
what about you, Chuck?
Beliefs or habits in the lastfew years that have had, that
have enhanced your life?

Chuck (01:07:20):
along the same direction as Maggie.
I see these young kids, amazing,early start to climbing, already
have the kinesthetic sense to,to climb rock and, they have
zero body fat.
and I look at that and I go, Iwouldn't trade my situation for

(01:07:43):
that situation.
For any amount of money in theworld, I wouldn't go back.
I wouldn't be that 20 year oldor that even 30 year old or
whatever they might be, um, inchain, in, in, in trade the
knowledge.
in the life experiences thatI've had along the way.

(01:08:04):
So I guess it gives me, whatI've learned is I have this more
relaxed attitude about it.
So it's less about, the, whatanyone else is doing or what
anyone else thinks is importantor should be the way.
I've already got my path.
I'm very happy with that path,and though I'm willing to look

(01:08:27):
at what other people are doingand if it's something that I
think is pretty amazing andwanna be part of, I might dabble
in it.
But at the same token, I'mpretty happy with the way things
are going.
so I, I'm just, I like the pathI'm on.
I'm gonna stick to it.
the one thing I've added that Ithink is.

(01:08:47):
fun being an older climber iswhen I see someone struggling
and if they're receptive, ifthey're honestly, if they, they
ask, what do you do here?
how do I get, how do I climblike that?
Or how do I do these moves onthis climb that I just saw you
on?
I'm more, I'm excited to helpthem out.

(01:09:09):
I'm really.
And Maggie's the same way too.
And I've become more I thinkit's, I think it's important for
older experienced climbers toshare their, that experience to
make it better for others.
and I've become more and morethat way.
and less focused on just myself.
More on the community aspect, tothe point of even, even making

(01:09:32):
it safer.
It's we see that frequently.
That's one of the, probably oneof our biggest pet peeves is
people doing stupid things orrisking themselves in stupid
ways.
And like a simple thing, like astick clip, we watch people here
because they've traveledsomewhere by plane.
They don't have a stick clip andthey're.
looking up at a first boltthat's way off the deck and they

(01:09:55):
go, wow, this rock is reallypolished and slippery and these
holes are they moved.
It's hey, I've got a stick left.
Do you want me to stick that foryou?
and they see us doing that.
So they know that, we're playingit safe.
The locals don't.
they're pretty set in their waysabout leaving the ground and
being sketchy.
Yeah,

Maggie (01:10:14):
but their health insurance works here.

Chuck (01:10:16):
Yeah, that's true.
Their health insurance works.
And they also know the moves.
They've done it a million times.
Probably on top rope the firsttime.
the other thing too that we,that I've, we've started doing
more is, studying and keeping aclose eye on gear.
fixed protection.
we're, we've, pretty much everyplace we go now, we have all the

(01:10:36):
equipment and we have theknowledge.
So if we see something that'sbad, we fix it.
particularly on the routes wherewe're climbing or in the area
we're climbing, we'll, we'llrevolt an entire route or an
entire wall or just certainanchors, depending on how bad
they are.
and then when we're done, we'llshow them to people.

(01:10:57):
we'll show them exactly what'swrong with it, why we've
replaced it, and, what ourrecommendations are for the
future and make, create thisawareness.
that's the direction I see myfuture and more of a climbing.

Maggie (01:11:10):
I should say, he used to be really grumpy and anti
social.
So talking to people about thesethings is definitely a change.
Engaging with other humans atthe crag.
Other than me.
It

Chuck (01:11:25):
wasn't so much that I was grumpy or anti social.
It was just that, that I had Iwas focused.
I was just, I was centrallyfocused.
Which comes

Maggie (01:11:37):
across as grumpy and antisocial to

Chuck (01:11:39):
other people.
And I, a lot of times I foundother people to be a
distraction.
and it's something that I'velearned to understand is part of
the process now, because It'snot going to change.
so I've got to adapt.
it used to be with my climbing,I could go places and not see
anyone for days.

(01:12:00):
that's my start in climbing.
And then even if I went to acrag, a popular crag, you knew
everybody that was there.
all three other people.
And now it's become so popularand in our planet, there's so
many people now and you're, youhave to be able to cope and deal

(01:12:21):
with the fact that you're goingto be on any given day,
surrounded by lots of otherpeople with different ideas and
on how life is to be pursued andhow climbing is to be pursued.
And though that idea may notcoincide with what my idea is, I
have to at least be accepting.
and ideally, I have to, we havetaken upon ourselves to be, to

(01:12:44):
be leaders by more example.
rather than bringing a boom boxto the crag and blasting our
music for everyone to hear.
we tend to show them that youcan rock climb without that.
and have civil conversationsabout it, and we're seeing
things like that, shenaniganslike that more and more.

(01:13:05):
Yeah.
Drones flying, that kind ofWithout asking, without
prepping, without Saying, Hey,does anybody mind if a drone
flies over?
Yeah.
Yeah.
and red point.
Yeah.
Things like that.

Kush (01:13:19):
As you're trying to, take those deep breaths and try to
focus and meditate and blockout, uh, external things, you
know, you'll hear the, themellifluous sounds of a drone
right behind you.
I really appreciate that answer.
And it also gives me a second tointrospect because I'm 45 and I

(01:13:44):
started climbing two decadesago.
And I also started climbing inthe, in the East coast and at
the New River Gorge where I'msure it's a bit busier, but it's
nowhere as busy as Cracks in theWest and as the red and I
already find myself getting alittle grumpy and judgy because

(01:14:05):
yes, the lot of gym to crackpeople there and the people who
you know, quote unquote bringthe party to the crack and time
with headphones and all of thatand I try to check myself that
One of the reasons I found joyin climbing is interacting with
and bonding with people throughthis shared passion.

(01:14:28):
when I do meet people like thatat the crag, just reminding
myself that we're all therebecause We love climbing, we
love the outdoors, and try tokeep that front and center in my
interaction with them ratherthan, rather than the things
that I may not find as,uplifting with their presence.
I certainly found Chuck.
And then secondly, this is, Idid not expect this.

(01:14:52):
As part of the answer, but Isound like you guys do a
significant bit of, routemaintenance, drag maintenance,
and thank you for doing that.
Thank you for being, goodstewards.
obviously you guys are humbleand, just came out accidentally.
Do you guys also do any kind ofother advocacy work with, the
access fund or any groups youmight want to give a shout out

(01:15:15):
to?
And are you guys also.
Beyond just, replenishment, areyou also developing new routes?
Because I know that is reallytankless, tiring work.

Maggie (01:15:26):
Yeah, we're definitely, we're members of the access
fund.
And usually what we do is also,how they have the joint
memberships with local climbingcoalitions.
We'll usually, each pick one ofour destinations throughout the
year.
and join, do our jointmembership with whatever area
that is.

(01:15:47):
and route development you shouldtalk about.

Chuck (01:15:50):
Yeah, the route, I've done a lot of route development
in the past.
and it is.
it is hard work.
It's expensive.
It's, time intensive.
And as you alluded to veryoften, thankless.
I thank you.
Why did you put the bolt there?

Kush (01:16:08):
that's the rule of climbing or complain first and
whatever else.

Chuck (01:16:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't think it's thatgreat.
Yeah.
Whatever grade you've

Maggie (01:16:19):
given it.
But you've put up, what, two newroutes this year, in 2023?
Twenty Last, this past year youput up two new routes.
Yeah.

Chuck (01:16:28):
Yeah.
So now if I find something that,that catches my eye, I'll put it
up.
and we still do that, but mostlyit's maintenance now.
I think there's a lot ofclimbing out there that it needs
to be fixed.
So we've gone through this thingof mass development, and we do
need to develop more because theclimbing community is growing,

(01:16:48):
and to keep Jeep climbers happy,we need to spread them out a
little if we can.
at the same token, we can'tneglect the routes that were put
up 20, 30, years ago, sportroutes that were, didn't
necessarily have all stainlesssteel or, ideally everything
should be glue ins now.
And, so I'm trying to showpeople how to do that.

(01:17:11):
we Also do clinics, for a coupleevents a year, one of them we do
consistently is theInternational Climbers Festival
in Lander.
We do that every year.
And we have a couple reallypopular clinics that we do, and
this year we're morphing oneinto, Well, the one is called
AARP, uh, Advanced AgeRedpointing.

(01:17:35):
AARP.
Advanced Age Redpointing.
I love that.
So that was really good.
And you can be any age.
we love anyone.
But we do get some.
We get some older climbers, 72.
Yeah.
Yeah.
60s, 70s.

Maggie (01:17:51):
And the average age is usually around

Chuck (01:17:53):
60 for the clinic.
And that's fun.
and then, we did, we used, wewere doing one called the
honeymoon's over and it was acouple's clinic.
But we kept getting couples thatpretty much had it dialed
already.
They didn't need the clinic.
They

Kush (01:18:09):
really didn't need it.
The couples who did not have itdialed could not agree on coming
to the same clinic.
So they never showed up.
We wouldn't

Maggie (01:18:17):
admit that they,

Chuck (01:18:18):
yeah.
The ones that should have beenthere.
Yeah.
so we're changing that one to,live to climb

Maggie (01:18:24):
another day.
So gear inspection, fixed gearinspection, PPE, personal
protection equipment, and thenalso fixed gear.
we're, we'll address stickclipping and how to, safely haul
up a stick clip on route.
because we see so many peoplehaul up a stick clip without
backing themselves up and just,things that people just don't

(01:18:45):
think about.
And then also how to actually,replace, even just replacing a
perma draw.
It's amazing how many peopledon't know how to do that.
And for that reason are veryuncomfortable attempting to do
so just things like that, likeeveryday crag maintenance kind
of things.

Chuck (01:19:05):
We're finding, people will climb on a route and leave
their draws on it, and thenother people will climb on that
route, just your standard nylondraw with aluminum carabiners,
and that route might stay aproject for three or four
months.
And those aluminum carabinerswill wear out or the fabric will
fray because it rubs across rockand no one looks at that.

(01:19:28):
Hanging out there in the sun.
They just assume if it's upthere it's safe to clip.
Yeah.
Because that's what they do atthe gym or whatever.
we, the first thing we always dois inspect the gear on a project
and fix things before we Get,totally invested in it.
That's how

Maggie (01:19:44):
he's lived so long.

Kush (01:19:46):
Thank you for, doing that work and sharing your hard
earned wisdom and knowledge.
Because certainly as climbinggrows as a sport, there is a lot
of information and courses andtraining on people and teaching
people how to, hang boardbetter, or even become generally
stronger climbers, but.

(01:20:06):
When it comes to crag hygiene,when it comes to all these
little, bits of information thatwill keep both the crags and the
climbers healthy on the longterm.
I think there is a gap there.
So appreciations to you guys forstepping up and helping teach
the rest of us how to, make allof those things better.
Coming to the end of theconversation, kept you guys long

(01:20:29):
enough.
Just one or two fun questions.
You mentioned the honeymoon,clinic and I didn't mean to ask
you if you had a couple of,quick parting words of wisdom
for couples wanting to traveland climb or do another activity

(01:20:49):
together because, passion andshared activities takes you this
far, but then there are otherthings that help keep the, magic
going.
What would,

Chuck (01:21:01):
I think we're really lucky in that we have a shared
passion for not only the samestyle of climbing, but the same
style of routes that we climb.
And, the fact that we climb atthe same level is incredible.
we're incredibly lucky.
It wouldn't have to be that way.
We could, it wasn't always thatway.

(01:21:22):
Yeah.
but I think those things help,and if, obviously that's not
possible in most cases, I thinkmost relationships there's a
disparity there or a differenceof some kind, and we, like in
the very beginning, our marriagevows, part of, one, one of our
big sayings or big philosophieswas that we're the joining of

(01:21:46):
two solitudes.
Maggie has her own personalideas about things and beliefs
and though they might beSimilar, I have my own ideas
about certain things and certainbeliefs and, and I respect hers.
She respects mine.
We realize that we are twodifferent people, but at the

(01:22:08):
same token, because we are twoindependent, different people,
we can fully rely on each otherwhen we need to.
So it's the complete opposite ofwhat I call a dominant, non
dominant couple.
We're, we're both totallyindependent.
We could, right now, today,survive without the other

(01:22:28):
person.
And that's what gives usstrength.

Maggie (01:22:31):
I think it's a side effect of having survived
without each other for a hugechunk of our lives before we
met.
we met when we were older.
So we definitely, have verydeveloped personalities,
individual personalities, by thetime we met.
So

Kush (01:22:47):
Any, and maybe looking at you, Maggie, for this one, any
significant part of yourpersonalities that you have to,
let's say, subdue in order tomake this union work.
Absolutely.

Maggie (01:23:03):
there are some things about us that are different, but
some things that are verysimilar.
And one of the similarities isthat naturally we are both
extremely OCD, generally type Apeople.
but there's a slight imbalancethere where, Charlie is more OCD
than I am.
and I'm enough less OCD that Ihave been able to consciously

(01:23:30):
pull back and let go of some ofthat on my part.
Like he really won't like if Iput something in a cabinet, he
won't look in the cabinet behindthe front row to find what he's
looking for.

(01:23:50):
So all of his things I have inthe front of the cabinets and my
things behind because it's justnot that important to me, but I
know it's really important tohim.
yeah, I read this book years agocalled Who Moved My Cheese?

Kush (01:24:09):
Yeah.
I read that book, yes.
It's, they often give it off aslike management, business.

Maggie (01:24:13):
yeah, it's more, it is more geared towards it, but it's
letting go of that micromanagingaspect of things.
And.
And just I've just decided thatsome things just aren't that
important to me because I knowthey're so important to him,
even though they're not made,they're not big things, they're
just little things that don'treally change the outcome or

(01:24:38):
quality of our lives.
So I just go with it.

Kush (01:24:41):
There's another book on those lines that I like to
reread every few years.
It's called Don't Sweat theSmall Stuff.

Maggie (01:24:48):
Excellent book.
Yeah.
it's good.
It's good for me.
I'm not as OCD as I was.
I think it's helped.

Kush (01:24:55):
Anything from you Chuck on that one?

Chuck (01:24:57):
only I get to drive.
Oh yeah,

Maggie (01:25:00):
he drives and he also makes all of our meals except
lunch.
He makes every breakfast anddinner.

Kush (01:25:08):
That is 66%.
66% is you Maggie.
Then, unless you eat out.

Maggie (01:25:14):
Yeah, every, I drive like once a year just to make
sure I remember how.
Okay.
Fair enough.
We need to divide.
Uh, Duties and responsibilities.
They are shared, but they don'tneed to be symmetrical.
Yeah, that's true.
Very true.
Very true.

Kush (01:25:32):
Talking of meals, I think it's getting close to dinner
time for you guys.
Just maybe two fun questions.
What was the best 10?
I would have said 100 if youwere in the US, but since you're
in Mexico, what were the 10 thatyou, remember spending in the
last, several months?
Best

Chuck (01:25:50):
10?
Have we spent 10?

Maggie (01:25:53):
Yeah.
Okay.

Chuck (01:25:54):
groceries, gas, beer for a Alejandro and

Maggie (01:25:59):
all that.
Yeah.
Beer.
We bought beer for some friends.
Okay.
we don't really indulge inluxury or Yeah, we're pretty
simple.

Chuck (01:26:08):
we haven't given it to him yet when we're leaving next
week.
And, it's the host and theowner.
Here.
And they drink Tecate, which is,you probably know is just water,
but it's cheap.
And, so we bought some reallygood Mexican brew.
And that was about 10 bucks.

Kush (01:26:34):
hopefully they will enjoy imbibing it just as much as you
enjoyed, Taking it out.
Any favorite book or movie that,you would share with others?
Nobody.

Chuck (01:26:49):
Oh, yeah.
Nobody was a good movie.
Yeah,

Maggie (01:26:52):
we saw the, the movie Nobody.
Okay.
It was like the last like newermovie that we've seen.
We have a lot of old movies thatwe watch a lot, but yeah, that
was like the best newer one.
What's his name, Bob Odenkirk?
Yeah, Bob Odenkirk.
Ah, yeah.
Yeah.

Chuck (01:27:10):
Yeah.

Kush (01:27:10):
Bob Odenkirk is the guy in that, really good, Better Call
Saul.
I think it's Oh, I think so,yeah.
Okay.
Really good actor.
Yeah,

Maggie (01:27:20):
and you can't really you can't really tell what people
much about nobody because itruins it So you just have to see
it.

Kush (01:27:27):
Sure Make a note of that one and then yeah final question
if going back to food if you hadto eat one meal for The rest of
your life.
What would that be

Chuck (01:27:43):
have to be salmon?
Yeah,

Maggie (01:27:45):
I would Say pizza, but Charlie's pizza, he makes a
really good healthy pizza, notreally a pizza.
It's like a pizza esque kind ofa thing.

Kush (01:27:57):
Charlie, how would, Chuck, how would you cook your salmon?
And, Maggie, what would you likeon that pizza?
How do you

Chuck (01:28:03):
cook your salmon?
I, we bake in a pan because allwe have is a, gas range, propane
range.
but I, we've gotten, I've gottenreally good at baking in pans.
Yeah, really good.
So I bake salmon in a

Maggie (01:28:17):
pan.
Yeah, that's also how he makesthe pizza, but he makes it with,
two like low carb tortillas withcheese in between them and then
hot salsa for the sauce.
Chicken, olives on top, and thenmore shredded cheese on top, and
he bakes it in the pan.

(01:28:38):
And it's so delicious.

Kush (01:28:40):
So delicious.
Sounds very yummy.

Maggie (01:28:43):
Yeah.
I always want to, but I only

Kush (01:28:46):
get one.
Okay.
I will have to, think about thekind of beer I'll have to bring
for you guys to be treated to aslice of this, decadent, pizza.
It's been a wonderfulconversation.
Thank you so much for joiningtoday.
Thank you.
Wow.
I am so delighted with thisconversation.

(01:29:09):
This was my first timeinterviewing two guests
together.
But checking Maggie immediatelyput me at ease.
With the down to itpersonalities.
An easy demeanor.
We talked about so many coolthings.
I loved their singular love andpassion for the sport.
Something I hope to carryforward.

(01:29:30):
Over the next couple of decades.
I'm grateful for the candor andsharing the relationship with
each other as well as their ownbodies.
As they get older.
And they're remarkable.
Appreciation for where they aretoday.
Loved there, easy vet as well.
A R P.

(01:29:51):
Or advanced age red pointing.
I'm writing this one down.
They also talked about theimportance of making choices.
If you want world-classexcellence, you have to make
hard choices of things you mayhave to give up.
I'm odd and inspired with thispower.
Couple.

(01:30:11):
Hope you are too.
Thanks for tuning in France.
If you enjoy the show.
If you hate the show.
Let me know.
Kush at ages, athlete.co.
Our DME on social media.
Thank you.
Tuning out until next time, stayadventurous, stay inspired, stay
each lists.

(01:30:31):
This is Kush Condell.
Well from ages athlete, podcast

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#11 Maggie & Chuck Odette - Transcending Societal Scripts, Projecting Elite Grades, Making Good Choices, and Aging Joyfully

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#11 Maggie & Chuck Odette - Transcending Societal Scripts, Projecting Elite Grades, Making Good Choices, and Aging Joyfully