#17 Caroline Paul - From Firefighting to Wing Walking, Transforming Fear into Awe - Ageless Athlete - Stories and Secrets of Adventure Sports Icons

Episode Transcript
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Kush (00:04):
Folks welcome back to the ageless athlete podcast.
This is your host Kush Condell.
Well, Broadcasting from SanFrancisco, California.
Bringing you stories of age,defying, genre, defying
adventure athletes.
Doing extraordinary things.
In the outdoors.
It's gorgeous here today.
Spent some time at the beachthis morning with my cute pup

(00:28):
Rodger, and I am feeling quitefortified.
Are you ready to be inspiredtoday on ageless athlete?
We have a true Renaissancewoman, Caroline pod.
A former firefighter who battledblazes in San Francisco,
California.
Caroline's adventurous spirithas taken her from the remote

(00:49):
landscapes of Siberia to thedizzying Heights of the Bolivian
Andes.
braving blizzards on Denali.
Her tourist for new experiencesled her to become a pilot.
Uh, surfer and even of inWalker, And as an author, she
has spent numerous books,including the New York times

(01:09):
bestseller.
The gutsy girl.
And our latest, incredible book.
Def bride.
Which explores thetransformative power of outer
adventures.
For women as the age.
We will be diving into her.
Beautiful journey.
The inspiring women she's metand how getting outside can
redefine our expectations andlead to a more fulfilling life.

(01:34):
So buckle up and get ready foran exciting conversation with
the one and only Caroline Paul.
I really appreciate you tuningin today.
If you have enjoyed the journeyso far would love it.
If you dropped a little rating.
Click the star icon and applepodcast or wherever else, like

(01:54):
Spotify, you listen to yourbody.
Trust me, it really helps getthe word out and it helps
support the show.
Now onwards with the pot.
It's rote.
Hi Caroline.
Great to have you on the show.
Can you tell us where are youright now?
Where are you from?
And what did you have forbreakfast today?

Caroline (02:18):
Oh, hi, Kush.
I'm so psyched to be on theshow.
I am in San Francisco.
I had coffee this morning and.
I'm from the East Coast.
I was born in New York City.
but I'm a New Englander atheart.
Northwest corner of Connecticut.
Very rural.

Kush (02:35):
From the right coast to the best coast.
I just discovered your lovelybook, Tough Broad, and I've
been, hooked.
I want to start off by askingyou to take us back to the time
you rode into Yosemite on anelectric skateboard.
I've traveled through the gate,check at Yosemite National Park,

(02:56):
numerous, I don't know, maybe ahundred times over the last 15
or so years, but, you blew mymind with your creativity in
getting past the entry system.
Would you mind giving us a peekinto what transpired that day?

Caroline (03:13):
Yeah, I'll quickly tell you I was going actually
for my first interview for ToughBroad, and I got to the gate and
it was the pandemic.
And so there were the rules hadchanged and you needed a
reservation, which was fine.
I, I had the, my friend had sentme the reservation.
It was on my phone, but the veryyoung ranger said, Oh no, no,
your name has to be on thereservation or you can't bring

(03:33):
your car in.
And I said, well, wow.
Okay.
Well, can I walk?
And she's like, no, it's ninemiles to the Valley.
And I remembered that I had myone wheel in the trunk of my car
and my one wheel for those ofyou don't know is an electric
skateboard it looks more likeit's like a snowboard with a big
wheel in the middle.

(03:54):
and I asked her, I said, well,can I use my, my one wheel, my
electric skateboard?
And she was.
Shocked because she had justseen my age, which was at the
time, 57 and, you know, I drivea very stayed, Prius.
she had obviously made a lot ofassumptions about me.
And one of them was not that Ihad a one wheel in my trunk and
that I could ride it.

(04:14):
she asked her supervisor and thesupervisor like, yeah, I mean,
she can't bring her car in, butyeah, the human can go, which I
thought was so funny.
But I get it.
It's, it's all about traffic, Iguess.
Anyway, so I went and I got onmy one wheel and I one wheeled
into the valley and it wasbeautiful.
It was amazing experience.
I keep my one wheel in my carfor these, these, sort of

(04:36):
eventualities, which neverreally come up and it's just
often that I have some free timeand I see like a little open
space or a little bike trail andI want to get on it.
And this time it really came inhandy, but it was a great
opening to the book because whatit showed was, you know, Sort of
our implicit assumptions aboutwhat people, what women

(04:58):
especially can and cannot doafter a certain age.
I think if I had been a man,they would have been maybe a
tiny bit surprised, but notreally.
But because I was a 57 year oldwoman, I really sort of all the
rangers gathered around when Icame back up in my one wheel.
You know, to get permission tothen go, go down the gate.
They were asking me a ton ofquestions about the one wheel,
but I could tell there were alot of questions in their head

(05:20):
about me.
thing and the beautiful thing.
And then when I say this in thebook was what I inside, I was
laughing the whole time becausethe person I was meeting in
Yosemite Valley was about my agetoo.
And she was way radder than mebecause she was about to base
jump off of.
of El Cap, and that's why I wasgoing.
I was going to interview her andalso not base jump with her

(05:42):
because that was the only, um,adventure I did not do in this
book.
by the way, the subtitle of thebook is really explains the
book.
if that beginning has not, whichis, it's called tough broad, but
the subtitle is from boogieboarding to wing walking, how
outdoor adventure improves ourlives as we age.

Kush (06:01):
I see electric skateboards in San Francisco all the time
and, uh, they're more commonhere, I guess, than the, uh, the
hallowed roads of YosemiteNational Park.
But I think even here I'll haveto be careful on, uh, on what I
think about the person ridingthat skateboard

Caroline (06:19):
you know, the truth is you won't see a lot of women my
age riding them.
And I knew that.
And that's actually why I wrotethe book.
I mean, I, this book came out ofbeing on my skateboard and
looking around and there were nowomen my age.
I could see a couple of men myage and also when I was on my
surfboard, I'd look around in,especially when it was winter

(06:39):
surf and I see no, no women myage and no women older.
And there were men my age andolder hmm.
when I flew my experimentalplanes, there was just hardly
any women doing it, but again,men, my age and older.
So I just thought, Oh, well,what's going on here?
Is there something I don't know?
Is there something I'm notsupposed to be doing anymore?

(07:00):
And I didn't want to give up myoutdoor adventure life.
And I had a feeling though, thatit was actually key to
fulfilling aging.
So the book is really a quest,more than than my other books,
which have been more statements,uh, or opinions.
And this is a quest I actuallydon't know.
And I do a lot of, a lot ofresearch.

Kush (07:17):
you have been breaking barriers and you have been
dropping jaws through this questof yours.
I'm so excited and humbled tohave you, join us today.
I'm inspired, but yeah, justgoing back to that little story,
curious, where do you get this?

(07:38):
You know, this, this chutzpah aswell most people who were raised
in this country, in the US, mostpeople, like you said, who might
be around your age, they wouldnot have thought to do that.
I come from a country, I wasraised in India and people are
always looking for ways to getaround.
So I would not be as surprisedif people would try and find

(08:00):
ways to abandon their cars andget on their bicycles or, or
whatnot.
what is it about yourpersonality that,
Pushes you to challengeconvention or traditional
thinking.

Caroline (08:10):
I just think that I had my one wheel in the back of
my car because I always wantedan opportunity to get on it.
It's an opportunity to getoutside and explore something.
So it was more my sort ofexploratory mindset, I guess, I
grew up in the, I was born in63.
Those of us born in the sixtiesand grew, who grew up in the
seventies really were used tokind of a feral childhood.

(08:30):
it was pretty much a get on yourbike and come back at dark kind
of thing.
And we lived in the country formost of our young lives.
I have an identical twin and ayounger brother.
And that's what we did.
We got on our bikes and we wentswimming.
We've got on our bikes or we,you know, we went sledding.
We went, skating.
We did things outside to passthe day.

(08:53):
And so it's kind of secondnature.

Kush (08:56):
Have you always been.
Outdoorsy and an adventurous,any favorite story of you
growing up that, was perhaps,defining as you grew up and
continue pursuing this life of,uh, adventure.

Caroline (09:15):
Yeah.
I don't know where, I got thisidea that adventure was a value
that I wanted to pursue, exceptfor that.
It was just, we did grow up inthe country and it was clearly
the way to have fun.
Also we had national geographicsthat arrived at our house every
month, I think it is.
And they were those yellowspined magazines that everybody,
many people.

(09:36):
That I knew had and then we'dkeep them and line them up on
the shelf.
So there are all these backissues going back years.
And they were kind of theinternet for us.
And in it were lots ofadventurers.
And it just looked like theexciting life that I wanted to
have.
You know, my parents were notoutdoorsy.
But what they did do for us, isthat they wanted us to be well

(09:56):
rounded.
It's not even that they wantedus to be brave or resilient or
learn risk assessment like Ithink parents might do now.
Those weren't part of thevocabulary.
They wanted us to go outside anddo things because they thought
it would make us more social.
It would, uh, get us out of thehouse and it would just make us
more well rounded that when wewere adults, we could pick and

(10:18):
choose what we'd liked itbecause they had given us, you
know, all these options.
We also learned the flute and wealso went to a church again, not
because they were specificallyreligious, but they wanted to
give us the choice later.
So they laid that groundwork.
So we got lucky that way, but Iwill say that my siblings are
not like me.
They don't live.
An outdoor adventure life like Ido though.

(10:40):
They both love the outdoors.
Uh, they don't have a practiceof adventure, my sister walks
and she swims outside.
She does lots of open waterswims, but yeah, so it's just
sort of a haphazard intersectionof.
I couldn't really tell you how,but, I wanted to live a life of
adventure.

Kush (11:01):
I find a little parallel here.
I was fortunate as well, wheremy parents also exposed me to,
uh, a myriad assortment ofthings, including.
Sending me to summer classes todo artsy things, including
backpacking And I don't thinkthey knew which would stick.

(11:21):
the, uh, outdoorsy, Sportsthings stuck with me seems to me
from what I have been learningabout you, that you were also
quite competitive.
I read about, uh, how you wereattempting to set the Guinness
record.
I'm curious, you know, in thatspectrum of, adventure and,

(11:42):
sports, where do you think isyour, happy medium?

Caroline (11:47):
not that competitive, actually.
I mean, I think when I wasyoung, I had a lot to prove, and
so we all want to be first, andwe all want to be noticed.
And I have an identical twinwho's very, very competent at
pretty much everything, so, butneither of us want to be better
than the other.
But we also didn't want to beoutdone by the other.
So it was this really crazy, Imean, the way I describe my

(12:08):
childhood with my twin is thatwe were both really good
swimmers.
I mean, relatively speaking inour tiny town, we were on the
swim team and we would do, firstof all, we would not swim
against each other.
We would, we pick differentstrokes, but we would always
work out extra after practice.
And we would swim across thelake and back, which is about a
mile and a half.

(12:28):
we were like 11 or 10 when wedid this and routinely we'd stop
in the middle of the lake andyell at the other one because
they weren't swimming thestraight line that we needed
them to swim, which meant thatif they were serpentining at
all, they were getting more of aworkout than we were and we
couldn't have that.
Like we had to be exactly equalbecause there was always this

(12:49):
sense of like, you want to keepup with her.
But you, you know, but youdon't, you kind of want to be
better, but you don't reallywant to be better.
that would also hard.
It was just this really fineline.
I don't really think of myselfas competitive, but again, I was
always seeking exhilaration.
So I guess when you try to set aworld record because you want to

(13:10):
be in the Guinness book of worldrecords, which by the way, every
kid I grew up with wanted to bein, was, it was, And you would
flip through the pictures andsee the person with the longest
fingernails or the, you know,tallest person in the world.
I mean, we just thought it wasfascinating.
So to be in, it would be just akind of a, a stake in the

(13:31):
ground, like something thatreally bragging rights.
If you were, you know, a kid, Idon't know if that counts as
competition.
I mean, I definitely did sportsand I happen to be okay at them.
Wasn't, you know, honestly, Iwasn't super great, but I was
very dogged.
Like I trained, I did extra workin order to.
So that in that way, I thinksports are great, but I don't

(13:53):
really do competitive sportsanymore.
Once I got out of school.
that's not true.
Okay.
Okay.
That's not When I was atStanford, I did try out for the
luge team.
which is a competitive sport.
And I think everyone knows whatit is now, but back in 1985,
nobody knew what luge was, itwas, it was an obscure sledding

(14:13):
sport where you lay on your backand you went down a, you know, a
ramp, a shoot.
And, uh, so I did do that aftercollege for a little while, made
the national team left.
No, no, it's not.
Wow.
I promise.
I a good luger.
I crashed all the time, and thatwas my nickname, actually.
Crash, I really wanted to makethe Olympics.

(14:36):
I just thought the Olympics werethe coolest thing ever, and I
had no skills, so I simplypicked a sport where there were
hardly anybody doing it, that'sactually the key to my success
in life, is I just find a nichevery few people are in, and then
of course, you know, you'realways in the top 10, because
there's really only 10 of you.

Kush (14:53):
you found these niches, but maybe these niches also came
to you because maybe there wasthis thing.
natural aptitude you had forexcelling in certain ways.
Your response made me go downmemory lane in two ways.
One is, I am, maybe mygeneration we'd loved the
Guinness book of records.
And then next.

(15:14):
I discovered accidentally overthe last few days that your twin
starred in one of my favorite TVshows from the 90s Nobody I
asked here seems to knowBaywatch for some reason, but I
and my friends, we were hugefans.
So,

Caroline (15:29):
Okay.
So this is the hilarious partabout that is both my twin
sister and I were obsessed withthe Guinness Book of World
Records.
So I attempted on my own.
Well, actually with a friend,but not with my twin sister when
I was, I think, 13, 14, 15,something like that My sister
actually broke a record becauseshe was on Baywatch, which was

(15:50):
the most watched show in theworld at the time.
And it made the Guinness book ofworld records.
And don't you know that she logsthat over me I think it's been
broken since, but nevertheless,she was in.
The lauded book.

Kush (16:06):
well, she was breaking records and Caroline, you are,
You're winning minds and you'reinspiring a generation.
moving on, you took yourStanford degree and your
childhood of seeking adventureand then you became a
firefighter in your 20s.
What prompted you to do that?

(16:28):
From what I could tell, yourparents had white collar jobs.
And your sister was a TV starand you took on this, slightly
off the beaten path, profession

Caroline (16:39):
I fell into it.
I was a journalist by then and Iwas just, let's see, it was, I
had been working odd jobs and Iwas volunteering at KPFA here in
Berkeley I was the morning newsanchor and there were all these
stories come across my deskabout the fire department at the
time, which was like 1986 to 87.
and how racist and sexist theywere.

(17:00):
And they were, under a courtorder actually.
And they were just admittingtheir first women.
They had a class of five.
there was a new test coming upand I decided I would go take
the test, but only as anundercover reporter.
And I would ferret out racismand sexism because, you cannot
ferret out racism and sexism inlike a three hour test.

(17:21):
It's just not the way racism andsexism works.
That's why it's so insidious andpowerful.
It's woven way more deeply intoinstitutions, but I was young
and dumb and I took this testand I passed the first part and
then I kept passing every singleone.
And by the end, they said,you've, you're now in.
there was no story because therewas no overt racism and sexism

(17:45):
that I could talk about and Imade it and I actually was so
stunned and here's, here's wheremy own prejudices came up is it
was probably my own classistprejudice.
I couldn't see myself as afirefighter as a blue collar
worker, and I didn't want my dadwho had paid for my education.
I just felt.
But what I did is I deferred andthen I went off and did some

(18:08):
adventures.
I think I quit my job at thetime and then did some
adventures and came back and the1989 earthquake happened and I
was here for that.
And I started to read all thestories of bravery and
compassion and smarts that theSan Francisco fire men showed.
And I realized, Oh, come on,like you are as narrow minded as

(18:28):
you're claiming they are by justpainting them with this broad
brush.
It's a terrible institution andalso by then I'd really kind of
fallen in love with whatfirefighting was, which was
basically getting paid foradventure, which is why I wanted
to be a journalist in the firstplace.
So, I call back the departmentand I said, I'd like to take the
job and.
So I went in, uh, it was the15th woman and there were 1500

(18:51):
men.
I'm so lucky because it was anamazing job with really, uh,
incredible people, brave people,honorable people, some bad
people, but of course that's theway it is everywhere.
and it was, uh, really a comingof age for me,

Kush (19:04):
sounds like quite, quite the incredible coming of age
story.
What I'm sensing about you alittle bit is you don't just,
when you think about, peopledoing different things,
extraordinary things, you're notcontent by just.
hearing about them or readingabout them.
Maybe your personality calls foryou to go and seek and try and

(19:28):
experience those thingsyourself, talking about your
book.
Now that the heroes, or shall Isay the she ros that you write
about, it's full of theseheartwarming stories, you know,
full of, Full of these people ofall backgrounds.
Where did you go to find theseRenaissance women?

(19:50):
how did you discover them

Caroline (19:52):
the book is really about.
How I can find fulfilling agingas I neared my 60s and onward
and how outdoor adventure wouldfit into that.
And I did a lot of researchbefore I set out to interview
these women, mostly because Iwas going to kind of huck myself
into the interviews, like theparaglider that I was, but the

(20:16):
pandemic happened.
And so we were in lockdown, Icouldn't interview anybody.
So what I did was I did a lot ofresearch on what we need as we
age and about aging in general,which was great because I came
into each adventure knowingwhere I would kind of want to
put it, how it would, you know,fulfill this aging need that we

(20:38):
would have.
So for instance, well, here'swhat happened is like, I
realized as I was.
outside and I didn't see anybodymy age out there with me again,
like I said, there were men myage out there.
what I realized is that it wasthe toxic messaging that women
get about our own aging that waskeeping us from going out there.

(21:01):
I don't know what that messagingis for men.
This is also a book for men.
They can learn a lot about howimportant it is to stay outside
as we age.
But again, I was seeing men outthere so I knew that the
messaging was different and thenspecifically that we're frail,
that we can only really hope fora future of, guarding our frail

(21:23):
bones and our cognitive declineand we're boring.
And when I was doing myresearch, I was interested in
this mindset because I thoughtit was the biggest reason I
didn't see women out there.
And what I found, Kush, was thisamazing science that said, the
way we look at our own agingpredicts how well we age.

(21:44):
So what that means is if youhave a negative view, if you
think aging is a time ofdiminution and frailty and
Cognitive decline.
You actually have a much higherchance of, of being frail and on
a cognitive decline earlier.
So they've done studies you havea better chance of a cardiac
event earlier, cognitive declineearlier, and the opposite is

(22:06):
true.
So if you have a.
really robust sense of youraging.
If you think it's going to be atime of exploration and
exhilaration, you're happier,you're healthier, and you live
seven years longer.
So that seemed huge to me.
And so my quest when I went outwas to find, I had a feeling

(22:27):
that outdoor adventure was goingto be An antidote to this
negative mindset about our ownaging because, and you know,
this is a climber, what natureasks of us when we go outside is
to be strong, is to use ourcognitive faculties, is to be
nimble, is to be exhilarated andfun and brave.

(22:49):
All of that is flies in the faceof what we're told about our
aging.
So I knew stepping outside.
For women was going to be reallytransformative.
And so what I was looking forwas specific ways to do that,
depending on the wide range ofthe way we age.
So some of us age with, morephysical limitations than
others.
So I knew that I couldn't justdo, for instance, I went scuba

(23:13):
diving with an 80 year old, butthat's a lot of equipment to
handle and to throw on yourback.
And Louise Holey is.
Incredibly robust.
She has injuries, but she'sincredibly robust at 80.
so I also went birdwatchingbecause I knew that it was
important to get outside, but Iwent and interviewed Virginia

(23:37):
Rose who was in a wheelchairsince she was 14.
And so, as she told me, youknow, we're all temporarily able
bodied, Caroline.
Soon enough, everyone will bewhere I am now.
And so I knew that Virginia cango out in a wheelchair and bird
watch, then most of us can do atleast that.
And so I wanted a wide range ofoutdoor activities, but of

(23:59):
course, it's not, this bookisn't profiles of all these
women.
It's a real look at fulfillingaging and how different.
Ways of getting outside offer usthat but the women I interview
are amazing.
No doubt about it.
No doubt

Kush (24:17):
These women that you interview are Badass.
And, uh, yes, this book is aboutthe broader theme of defying
some of these, mindsets that arenot helping us progress.
But again, the fact that youshone light on these stories and

(24:38):
these people, and not only that,you went and embraced that
adventure with them yourself, Ithink brings me as a reader
closer to your experience.
Thank you.
And I also agree that this isabsolutely not a book just for
women.
This is a book for, foreverybody.
I almost wish that there was abook like this for men as well.

(25:00):
And maybe there is, but I thinkthat, you are opening the door
here.
One fun question to ask here isas you went about, discovering
these profiles of people doingthese different adventure
sports, What sport helpedredefine the definition of an

(25:20):
adventure for you as well, whereyou were like, goodness, I had
no idea something as kooky andas fun as this existed.

Caroline (25:31):
You know, I went boogie boarding with a bunch of
boogie boarders down in SanDiego.
They call themselves the wavechasers and they, they're made
up of women between 60 andreally the oldest was 97.
And they're mostly in theirseventies and eighties.
And I went down there because Ithought that it would be, you
know, It was a simple sport thatwe could all learn at a later

(25:53):
age and also that it was prettyforgiving.
But I have to say that I'm asurfer, not a great one, but I
have been surfing and I kind ofwas like boogie boarding.
Like, is that really anadventure?
is adventurous to me, basically.
I mean, honestly, I got schooledthroughout this book.
Same with when I wentbirdwatching.

(26:15):
Part of me was like, it's notreally an adventure, but I
really want everybody to getoutside.
So, but what I found was, well,let's take birdwatching
actually.
And then we'll go back to boogieboarding is that with
birdwatching, you know, we're ona quest, you're anticipating the
bird, you hear it, but you can'tsee it.

(26:35):
There's the exhilaration.
When you see the bird, there'sall the uncertainties of the
terrain and the weather.
And there was this physicalvitality because we actually,
uh, Virginia wheeled, I walkedsix miles.
It was a bird of thon that day.
We went to seven different parksor so we logged 52 different
species.
I'd never been birdwatchingbefore.

(26:56):
And I realized, Oh, this is anadventure.
As long as you're feelingexhilaration, exploration,
pushing, pushing a little bit ofsome boundaries, learning
something new and you'reoutside, it's an adventure.
So I really had to, yeah.
I had to redefine what anadventure was and I had to
believe, and I believed it likeI was kind of just paying lip

(27:18):
service and then I, and the samehappened when I went boogie
boarding, what I went in thewater and realized, Oh, this is,
this is incrediblytransformative.
To be in the cold Pacific Oceanto be, um, with all these other
people who are having fun on thesame wave.
And that's what the women toldme.
They said that when they becameboogie boarders, especially if

(27:41):
they didn't have an outdoor lifebefore that, they upended their
own expectations of what theycould do.
It changed them and it changedtheir outlook on their aging
process and what was possible.
It was really, really powerful.
And I think the outdoors inparticular does that because of,
again, the uncertainty that theoutdoors is makes you feel way

(28:03):
more robust because you'remaking decisions all the time.
And also the physical vitalityof the cold Pacific ocean.
You know, the day I went, it wasactually windy and actually cold
outside too.
There's stingrays in the waterand.
You have it, you, you cannotpossibly feel frail or boring

(28:23):
when you're a boogie boarder.
I had to really change my wholeidea of what boogie boarding was
about.
And then, by the way, it's theactual simplicity of boogie
boarding that makes it sobeautiful.
It's so simple that it cuts awayAll the sort of difficult
learning process, which cangreat and it lays bare like this

(28:47):
elemental fun and this aspect ofplay that we really forget about
as adults, especially as women,there was just this kind of
abandon in the water that was sounusual and so refreshing.
And I think really that freedomwas incredibly invigorating for
these women on a life level.

Kush (29:10):
So many amazing things.
Jump out of, jump out at me fromwhat you just said.
Thank you for that.
I'm a surfer myself, and I thinkI, I have a bit of your mild
condescension as well.
When I see people on boogieboard.

(29:32):
But I think the way youdelightfully narrated that story
in your book, you know, made me,uh, think about, some of the
essentials of why we take upthese sports and what you
experience on a boogie board is,is in many ways, the same as
surfing, you experience the, thebeauty, the majesty, the power

(29:55):
of the ocean, also theuncertainty because every wave
is different.
and then finally you alsoexperience that camaraderie you
have of sharing that with, uh,with good

kush_1_04-09-2024_12383 (30:05):
friends

Caroline (30:05):
which is not as much in the, I mean, surfers, like
they talk about the alohaspirit.
I'm like, that is such baloney,boogie boarders.
First of all, they weren't evenmost of them weren't even on the
face of the wave.
They were just doing thewhitewater and they loved
sharing a wave and that does nothappen a lot.

(30:26):
I mean, and certainly, you know,I mean, surfers talk a big game
about the spirit, but boogieboarders really embody it,
especially these women.

Kush (30:38):
I have to agree that surfer, especially in the, uh,
In the cold waters we havearound where we live are usually
not as friendly or as filledwith like the, let's say the,
uh, the goodness of the humanspirit.
I think these women seem to bemore deserving of good waves and

(31:01):
this group of women is a goodexample of that.
Many of these people, again,profiled in your book, they seem
to have had somewhat of a, uh,of a midlife awakening of sorts,
you know, maybe they were notathletes in their prior lives
and they discovered the sportand they have so much passion

(31:23):
for it.
Is there a particular reasonwhy?
Or is this just happenstancethat many of these people are
like that and you did not go andspend time with people who were,
let's say, lifelong athletes andwere just seeking to continue
their performance with aging?

Caroline (31:46):
I didn't mean, I wanted to have a wide variety,
so I did want to have somepeople that had never had an
outdoor adventure before, but Iwas surprised how many of these
women hadn't.
I mean, partly I wasn't lookingfor really good, you know,
people.
Athletes, because I wanted tothem to be relatable.
Uh, so nobody's an expert atwhat they do here.

(32:06):
I mean, there's maybe one womanwho was a champion runner and is
now an orienteer, and I wentorienteering with her.
Um, but in general, they werejust, they were all just sort of
enthusiastic.
I think it's for women, a weirdthing happens in this culture
where our identity Is all the,all the cultural currency that
we had, which is basically ourlooks, our reproductive ability,

(32:31):
um, often our, our job, uh, ourcaregiving skills, all that is
changing.
Our looks are changing our,we're through menopause and so,
and the kids are out of thehouse and we're often at the
apex of our career.
I mean, and we are not reallygiven a new identity.

(32:53):
And I think men are, and I seethat in the media.
You know, you still have IndianaJones running through the tombs
at 75 doing the, his bad assthings.
You have Liam Neeson beating uppeople.
I mean, they still have somesort of cultural relevance, but
for women, you're just grant agrandmother.
I mean, and it's, it's this biggaping hole for women that could

(33:16):
be a big opportunity, or it canbe really disheartening.
Um, and I think that not to beunderestimated too, is the fact
that we have been throughperimenopause, and I looked a
lot into the, chemical, thehormonal changes that.
And what it does is that thoseextreme caregiving hormones that

(33:38):
have served us very well, as weraise kids and, and nurture a
partner and a relationship, um,those change and they, And it's
not that we become lessempathetic.
It's that we turn more toourselves and what we need.
And so here we are in our late50s, 60s, and we have this

(33:59):
change in our hormonal systemand our identity is pretty
unformed.
Nobody's given us a template ofthat is, that feels useful for
us.
And so into that, if you want,you can step and open up your
life or you can freak out and itcan all shut down.

(34:20):
You can listen to the messaging,but I think that's why these
women.
did not have an outdoorbackground, but they, something
spoke to them or they wanted tochange.
And I think a lot of them didthis at an inflection point.
Like for instance, LorraineVoigt, who is a boogie boarder
that I spoke to, she had nooutdoor background before when

(34:40):
at 60, it was the pandemic.
And she saw these women in thewaves and they looked like they
were having fun.
She didn't even like the ocean.
She didn't like swimming.
She knew how to swim, but shedidn't like it.
But she thought, what the heck?
Because I think at thatinflection point, there's a
vulnerability of like, Oh, well,you know, how bad could it be?
And, uh, she had had a reallytough fifties and she just

(35:01):
decided to try it and it changedher life.
And she told me that boogieboarding changed life.

Kush (35:07):
that needs to be the title of an entirely new book by
itself.
Changed boarding can changelives.
One thing I know I appreciateabout discovering something
later in life.
That perhaps one is notinherently gifted at is the

(35:29):
deeper sense of gratitude.
and fulfillment.
I know this is for my surfjourney.
I didn't start surfing until mythirties and I learned in again,
the, uh, tempestuous waters ofSan Francisco going around and
it was a difficult journey.
I mean, every little victory washarder, you know, every wave

(35:51):
caught every skill mastered.
And I just feel like, obviously,obviously.
If I had learned early as a kidand I had gotten good, I'm not
saying I would regret that, butI, I'm just as grateful today
for everything I've gotten outof that because I feel that
sense of accomplishment thatmaybe these women do as well

(36:12):
because maybe these women neverhad the opportunity to, you
know, jump up, I don't know,jump out of airplanes or try,
uh, water sports when they wereyounger for all kinds of
reasons.
And now that they're discoveringit, there is the sense of aha
and joy that is so infectious.

Caroline (36:31):
Well, it's also unencumbered by all those sort
of the angst of youth.
I think it's hilarious that youthink thirties was old I in
thirties and learning newthings, I still like had that
thing.
I had to be really good.
Who's looking at me.
Oh, you know, How am I doing?
But as I got older, I enjoyedthings way more.
Like all my adventures, Ienjoyed way more, um, because I

(36:54):
was older and was not encumberedby those.
things.
And in fact, when I talked toVijaya Srivastava, who is also,
she's from India, she had nobackground in outdoors because
it was not expected of girls atthat time.
She said she had playedbadminton like a couple of times
and that was it.
She came to California and shestill didn't have any outdoor

(37:14):
activity, but she, her doctorsaid, Hey, you need to do some
exercise.
So I think you should learn toswim.
She had a pool in hercondominium complex and the
doctor knew this.
And Vijaya told me I'm really,I'm afraid of drowning, which of
course, of course, she's afraidof drowning, but she was 68 and
afraid of drowning.
Like most people would be like,I don't think I'm going to swim.

(37:36):
Give me something else, butyeah, I had a real sense of fun
and she saw how much fun thekids were having she told me, I
asked her, so did age make itharder to learn?
And she said no, she thought agemade, her age, advanced age made
it almost easier because firstof all, she didn't care if she
looked in her bathing suit.

(37:56):
And secondly, there was a senseof, like, this gratitude because
it wasn't, this chance wasn'tgoing to come by again.
She called it the Cinderellamoment, I think, you know, the
clock is going to strikemidnight and then that's it.
You know, you're 68.
It's not like you're going to,you're going to at 79 say, well,
maybe I'll take swimming lessonsagain.
I'll try again.
I mean, she had this sense ofurgency.

(38:18):
That offered that made the wholeprocess really rewarding and the
really cool thing.
And I saw this over and over isthat once, once she had upended
her expectation of herself,like, oh, wow, I can swim all
these other things started open.
She decided to try all theseother things.
She began to walk people noticethat she was look more

(38:39):
confident, look stronger.
She felt better.
And she started doing all theseother things.
There was a real magic tostarting something late.
And not only is the journey sojoyous, but it, it really, when
you upend your sense ofyourself, suddenly all this
other stuff is possible.

Kush (38:57):
I will agree with that for most things, but not for
surfing.
I really do wish I'd started atsix,

Caroline (39:04):
Me too, Cause I'm such a bad surfer.
I too learned, I learned, youwant to know where I learned?
I learned at San Gregorio, be.
There is no channel yes.
there is no, there's fricking nowave.
I mean, I don't know, I guesssome people, but I never caught
a wave, probably for years.
But you know what I did learn?
I know how to paddle.
So you can put me anywhere andpeople think I'll come in and

(39:27):
people look at me with pity.
Like, Oh my God, I can't believeyou were out there for so long
because basically what they seeis me getting crunched by all
these waves.
But then I just paddle back out

Kush (39:38):
yeah, no, I would agree that, uh, most of my Bay area
surfs are usually suffer festswith the occasional, uh, ride
thrown in to just keep me, uh,just teasing me enough to keep
me coming back more.
Caroline, again, love the themeof your book and the amazing

(39:59):
people that you profile.
Remarkable stories there.
I am wondering on a broadertheme.
Whether you teased out some,some information on what are
some of these women doing, youknow, that is helping them
succeed.
This great story of that person,Vijaya, who learned how to swim

(40:21):
in her upper sixties.
What are some of these peopledoing that has allowed them to
succeed in their chosen venture,where some other people are not
succeeding, whether like, what,one thing you said right away
was like, some people they mightgive up even before the start.
They're like, Oh, you know what?
I am a grandparent now.
Why should I care about learninghow to swim?

(40:45):
But so that could be one reasonright there, but are there some
other things that people need tobe doing better or differently
where they can actually connectthe dots between desire to go
and learn a new.
Outdoor sport and actually goingout and, accomplishing that.

Caroline (41:05):
Well, first you have to realize that I'm not just
saying you need to go outsidebecause it's fun.
It is fun, but really, it'sreally, really good for you.
just on a, biological level,going outside reduces your
anxiety, reduces, yourdepression, which is very common
as we age.
The medicinal aspects of beingin green space are well

(41:28):
documented from the treechemicals that are emitted that
lower our, uh, that up our, uh,immune systems and lower
cortisol to birdsong that lowerscortisol and rests the brain to
even the, even the, the, thesoft lines of.
Nature, like a horizon line instark contrast with the hard

(41:50):
urban lines is much better forour brain and the fractal nature
of outdoors is also reallyrestful for our brain.
And they say it's because.
It mirrors the retinalstructure, so when we are
actually processing informationoutside, it's more restful.
so our brain is often doing somuch busy work, so much like, is

(42:14):
this dangerous?
Fight or flight type stuff whenwe're in a really loud urban
environment, that it's bad foryou.
And they've shown that if you gooutside and take a walk, you
test significantly better oncognitive.
and memory tests afterwards.
So clearly going outside isreally good for you.

(42:35):
Just being in nature is good foryou.
So that's what I, I want toemphasize that.
And then what do you, how do youpick something in order to, and
of course we need to move.
We need to exercise.
We need to move.
And people go to the gym forthat.
And that's great.
But again, if you're a woman,you're not up ending your own
expectations of yourself untilyou really get outside.

(42:56):
Because again, of the uncertainaspect of the robustness that
you feel, it's not just you'regetting a heart rate up.
You're dealing with cold water,dealing with cold, Air, you're
dealing with wind and steephills like that reinforces a
sense, a newfound sense ofconfidence when you can do that,
that kind of thing.
So getting outside is amazing.
That's the first thing.

(43:16):
And then how to do it.
Well, I covered another swimmerwho went on her swimming journey
and she did not finish it, butit's not like it was a loss.
You know, that journey, shedidn't end up swimming, but she
also had a pretty full life andshe had already found other
outdoor And what I write aboutis how that, that journey in and

(43:39):
of itself, as short as it mighthave been, still taught her
things about herself wereimportant.
Now what Vijaya did right isthat she enlisted a And I think
when you enlist a friend, youhave accountability.
Um, but the other thing is, isthat, What Virginia Rose, the
bird watcher told me is youdon't expect you to find your

(43:59):
best self within your zone.
So you have to know that youpush your comfort zone a little,
but it's the cool thing aboutgoing outside is that actually
pretty seamless.
not like you're like, okay, nowI got to have a really hard day
outside.
No, you're going outside with aboogie board or you're going
outside on a paddleboard andyou're gonna see beautiful

(44:20):
things.
So it's not like this arduousthing.
You're gonna get the medicine ina really great way.
But I would say, and also,here's the other thing, Kush,
that I feel very strongly about.
You know, as women, we are, notreally taught to be brave.
We're not really our comfortzones in the same way that men

(44:44):
are, or that, let's say, when wewere girls.
Boys are taught to push theircomfort zone at a very early
age.
And not only that, is they'retaught to lead with bravery.
So they have an exploratorynature.
But when I was growing up, Wewere always taught to be afraid.
And the reason our parentswanted us to be afraid is they

(45:04):
thought that would protect us.
And I understand that if you'reafraid, you won't talk to that
stranger.
You won't walk down that darkalley, but when you're afraid,
instead of brave, you lose a lotof your agency.
And so bravery could teach allthose things, but better because
then you learn risk assessment.
You learn to push your comfortson you, learn confidence in your
own decisions.

(45:24):
Cause once you learn, Fearinstead of bravery.
You're always looking for otherpeople to make decisions for
you.
And that is definitely not asafe situation.
so women start with a little bitof deficit, especially women my
generation, maybe engaging withparents, but women of my
generation were taught to beafraid.
So.

(45:45):
When we go at this later stagein our life and we want to try
something new and want to getoutside, there's a big fear
factor.
And people say, well, I don'twant to, what about the fear?
And I say, what about the fear?
Okay.
There's life is scary.
There's always a little fear.
You don't have to huck yourselfout of a plane.
I'm not asking you, but I amsaying ask a friend to go on a

(46:08):
walk or Maybe try paddleboarding or go, there's a lake,
go swim in that lake, eventhough there's seaweed at the
bottom that you don't like, youknow what I mean?
Push your comfort zone a littleand you'd be shocked at what
happens in confidence.
and your own expectations ofwhat you can do

Kush (46:27):
the key points I gather and you dropped so many one is
getting outside is a reward initself for all of the, uh,
healing powers that natureaffords us second, enlisting an
accomplice, or, uh, A friendhelps a lot.

(46:48):
And then, and this is somethingI found for me and for many like
me is that the journey or theprocess of learning can be just
as rewarding and as important asmastering that sport or
activity.
And I think, I think maybe youwill agree with this is that

(47:09):
taking surfing, for example,that process of learning to surf
in this enchanting environmentthat is the Pacific Ocean is a
gift.
Whatever we end up doing withthat, there's always somebody
who's better at that sport thanwe are.
But the moments we spend, uh,fighting those waves, that is a

(47:32):
privilege.
So enjoying that process, Ithink has benefits that far
exceed that sport itself.
Maybe one, Last question here.
any story that particularlyjumps out at you from this
beautiful book of yours wheresomebody defied the most extreme
odds to partake in an adventuresport?

Caroline (47:55):
let me just say one thing that one of the, uh,
adventures here that, thatreally changed me a lot, if I
could, it's when I went wingwalking So wing walking that
really weird sport where it'snot even a sport.
It's not even a thing.
We don't do it.
It's from the barnstorming daysin the 1920s when they would
take biplanes and do aerobaticswhen flying was very new and

(48:19):
they had people walk on thewing.
They would often transfer fromone flying plane to another or
from a moving car to a plane.
they call it wing walking andthey, they banned it years ago
because of course there was lotsof accidents because
barnstorming meant that thesebiplanes would often fly through
barns.
But anyway, there's one schoolin the United States that does
teach wing walking.

(48:39):
And I got a video of this womandoing it and her name was
Cynthia Hicks and she was 71years old.
And when I saw that video of hergetting up on a wing, I said, I
have to talk to her.
And she told me, Caroline, youwouldn't believe the courage you
feel when you get up on thatwing.
And so I realized I was going tohave to go wing walking.

(49:00):
And I didn't want to because Iwanted to write about Cynthia
and I wanted to write about thiscourage because we need courage
as we age.
And I didn't want to because I'ma pilot and why do I get out of
a perfectly good cockpit?
I don't know.
But I took this class and thenat 3000, get up in the plane,
And I've practiced on theground, going up on the wing,

(49:21):
attaching to the King post inthe middle.
and we take off in this 3000feet, I get up on the wing and I
am not happy about this.
And the wind is incredible.
And I like, it's not wingwalking, by the way, Kush, it's
wing slithering, I think is theway I describe it.
Wing crawling, wing.

(49:41):
And then you get to the Kingpost and you strap yourself in
and then the pilot does.
loops, barrel rolls, andhammerheads.
And I went from being like thesurliest of wing walkers to
ecstatic.
I mean, I was just amazed.

(50:02):
And when I got on the ground, Iwas really curious what had
happened because I, it wasadrenaline, of course, some, but
that wasn't all of it.
And I went and did research.
And what I realized I wasexperiencing was this concept
that I think a lot of us knownow because since I wrote the
book, there have been bookscoming out about this, but at
the time I knew nothing aboutthis and it's called awe.

(50:25):
I was awestruck.
I was awe wondered, whatever theword is, I was in awe, and awe
turns out is really good foryou, and it's a situation that
you, that we really, we, we sortof, um, we think of it as a
religious, uh, word, people areoften awed in religious
experiences, but in fact, natureis an awe trigger.

(50:47):
So when you look at the nightsky, you feel all the eclipse.
Everybody talked about theeclipse as being, you know,
awesome.
Just in all basically all is thefeeling that you get in the
presence of something biggerthan you.
So it's just, it's a mystery, amysterious, Huge thing.
And it's a feeling of likewonder and dread and fear.

(51:10):
And what it does is according toscientists, they call it the
reset button.
It kind of opens you upneurologically because when
you're in awe, you can't quiteprocess what's going on.
So you, you, there's no neuralpattern that's being laid down.
There's no pattern that's beingthat they're like, Oh, let's go
to that old groove that we've,you know, cause we know what

(51:30):
this is.
Your brain, you become more openminded is what this is.
is what scientists say.
And so anyway, you don't, turnsout that I realized, Oh, so awe
is what I've been chasing for.
So for many, many years, becauseI had noticed that I was less of
a, like an adrenaline junkie,but I still love doing the
things I did.

(51:50):
I just was, I'd more wax poeticthan be like, yeah, those
terrible thermals I was in.
Yeah.
You know, I was like, yeah, Idon't really like thermals
anymore.
It kind of get me a littlegripped when I'm up there
flying.
So I realized it was awe.
And I wasn't boring after all,you know, it wasn't becoming
sedate or boring or old, quote,old, I was seeking off and turns

(52:14):
out they did this amazing studyhere in San Francisco, where
they asked people between theages of 60 and 80 to go on.
Uh, these 15 minute walks, theycall them all walks because they
asked the walkers to look atthings with childlike wonder and
they track these walkers overeight weeks and they found that
their inflammation markers wentway down.
That inflammation is a sign ofill health and the walkers, the

(52:37):
all walkers reported, selfreported way lower.
depression, way lower, uh,anxiety and higher gratitude and
compassion, which is crazy,which makes sense.
Oh, and turns out we live in aworld of anti awe devices right
now, which is basically ourphone, which narrows our focus

(52:59):
and makes us feel in power andcontrol.
we need to put ourselves in moreawe situations and going outside
is the way to do this because itis naturally awe inspiring for
us.
You can also cultivate all byjust really, you know, when
you're out there on a prettyflat day.

(53:19):
You can still be awestruck bythe tiny little rollers coming
in because they're beautiful orthe pelicans who are taking full
advantage Or maybe if you seedolphins or just the the fact
that you're in the Pacific Oceanand the city's behind you is
pretty great So yeah, I was thatthat experience changed me
because I really knew nothingabout all I went into this book

(53:41):
Not thinking all was anything.
didn't know what it was and yetit became a big part of why we
should go outside

Kush (53:49):
love that because I had a similar epiphany myself and
somebody helped me or rathersomething helped me articulate
that what I felt and I waschasing while climbing or
surfing or whatnot outside wasagain that feeling of smallness.

(54:12):
Against the majesty and beautyof nature, I took this workshop
at Esalen a couple of years ago,and you probably know this
person, uh, Dasher Keltner.
He, I think, wrote a book on allrecently

Caroline (54:29):
Yeah and I quote him in the book too.
He had book hadn't come out, butI found him in my after this
yeah, amazing You got workshopwith on purpose Esalon want to
go to You're like, oh, namedDakar, go to his.

Kush (54:49):
I would say did want to go to Esalen and a workshop there
because all the workshops are sohighly, uh, highly rated.
And I think this one just kindof stood out because I read the
description and I.
Was awed for lack of a betterterm that, uh, that somebody
would help us understand, uh,the significance of awe because

(55:13):
I, I sort of felt that what Iwas seeking and connecting with
while I was out in nature wasthis articulation everybody go
read, Caroline's book and thennumber two, read Dasher
Keltner's book, because, I thinkit helps us understand, again,
another, powerful way toarticulate what mother nature

(55:35):
and the outdoors offers us.
You know, we are at an hour andtime is running by so quickly.
I feel I could keep you thewhole day if I could, uh, coming
back to you a little bit.
One thing I wanted to understandis the focus on being outside of
looking for adventure, lookingfor, or doing activities with

(55:59):
sometimes not all the timeinvolve some risk taking.
Now, if our goal is healthyaging and appreciation of life
and things such as that, wouldit not be easier to let's say
chase a more, you know,conventional fitness program,

(56:20):
you know, go and do Zumba at thepark and play tennis and lift
weights?
And, you know, get your outdoorfix by going for a walk.
Would that not be a little saferand not yield the same benefits?
I want you to challenge myquestion because, because I

(56:41):
chase sometimes risk takingthings myself.
So yeah, two part question.
One is what are the sportsyou're doing today?
And then second is why should webe choosing.
Sometimes outdoor sports, whichhave some risk over more
conventional, uh, fitnessactivities.

Caroline (56:58):
people talk about risk a lot, I think risk is relative.
Like if you want to talk aboutto Sean Broekman, who's the base
jumper about, she does a lot ofother things too.
She heli skis.
You know, she, she see kayaks.
I mean, she does a wide rangeof, she runs, she does a wide
range of things.
So she understands like the widerange out there of risk.

(57:20):
And I would say, yes, of course,base jumping has a higher risk,
but it's still relative.
I mean, she's still going toprepare so that she minimizes
risk as much as possible andoptimizes.
the beneficial parts, nobodywants to get hurt or, or die,
but we are seeking thoserewards.

(57:40):
And sometimes that reward is topush ourselves just a little bit
in order for us to, again, upendour expectation of what we can
do.
which is so powerful and opensup the rest of our life.
Now that doesn't mean you needto go base jumping.
It might mean you simply gobirdwatching.

(58:02):
when I interviewed VirginiaRose, I met a guy named Eric who
was a lot younger than us.
He was 35, but he'd had a verydebilitating form of MS for a
long time.
And he was pretty muchhousebound.
until he read a book and itfeatured birdwatching in it.
He started to become curiousabout birds, but he started in
his kitchen.

(58:23):
He was in a wheelchair.
He just looked out his window,but birds brought him outside.
Slowly he put out feeders.
Then he went to his back porch,then his backyard and his love
of birds kept pushing thoseboundaries.
I mean, I don't think risk.
It's it's he wasn't trying tohis his boundary pushing wasn't

(58:47):
as much.
I mean, of course it felt risky.
He can't even hold binoculars.
So for him, it was risky, but itwas the reward was so huge
because he was getting closer tobirds.
And when I went on that six milebird a thon with Virginia Rose,
he also was on that.

(59:07):
And so that's how he.
He came out to his adventureover a period of years and hard
one.
And so it's all in the eye ofthe beholder.
None of us can tell you whatyour adventure is going to be or
what pushing your comfort zoneis.
And I want to say again, likerisk is a part of life.

(59:29):
When we take pharmaceuticalsthat a doctor gives us, cause
they say they're going to makeus feel better.
Have you seen how long list ofside Vomiting, diarrhea, don't
drive that big car.
I mean, it's, I mean, and noneof us, we still take that
pharmaceutical.
And I guess the, because we'vemade calculation that it's worth
somehow, or we're ignoring it.

(59:51):
I don't know.
And I feel like you calculatethe risk because you know that
the reward, which is The beautyof nature, the possible awe, the
physical vitality, theexhilaration, I mean, the list
goes on.
The community, I mean, thepurpose, the, the novelty, like
all these things that are sogood for you.

(01:00:11):
You're not, you're not beingdumb about it.
You're not just going to go basejumping.
You're going to pick somethingthat risk is part of it, but
it's, it's just part of theexperience because it's part of
life.
I'm telling you that this hardone me because I a lot of I did
adventures when I was young wasfor that feeling of freedom.

(01:00:32):
That sort tightrope that youalmost yourself, I'm not I'm not
proud of that I thought it wascharacter building.
I thought it was exhilaratingand But now what I what I look
for is I can be I can feeladventurous just taking my
paddleboard just a couple blocksdown here bay and it in water

(01:00:57):
and Watching the pelicans andyeah, maybe I'll go paddle to
the Bay bridge and that's cool,but it's definitely not really,
I mean, risky.
Oh, the other thing Kush is Ireally want people to.
A lot of people don't reallyassess risk correctly.
I mean, they really go to, wecould die like right away.
I, I, I play this game with myfriend and it's in the end of

(01:01:20):
the book.
We call what it's we call it.
What's the worst that couldhappen game?
Because my friend tends to be alittle bit more anxious than I
am when we go outside, but she'smy adventure partner most of the
time.
So, and she'll.
So we, we went stand up paddlingon a moonless night in order to
find bioluminescence in TamalusBay.
And a lot of that is, seemsscary, but you really break it

(01:01:42):
down, none of None of going killget, you might, let's say the
tides are, we had alreadycalculated the tides, but let's
just say they pushed us, youknow, somewhere terrible.
We couldn't find our way back.
Okay, well, so you'reuncomfortable.
You sit on your board for eightYou're not going to die.
You're not going to gethypothermia because you have a
wetsuit.

(01:02:03):
You know, you're not going tostarve to death.
I mean, when people down whatthe actually is, you'd be how
benign surprised doing

Kush (01:02:13):
The calculation of risk is often.
irrational for many of thesethings.
The, uh, the Tomales Baybioluminescence example is a
good one.

Caroline (01:02:25):
Even the wind walking, Kush, if you really broke it
down, It sure seems, I mean, ofcourse, if in this weird way,
you jettisoned yourself, yougave into the impulse to like,
Step off the wing, which I thinkprobably in some part of our
brain, there is just like whenyou step, uh, go to the edge of

(01:02:45):
a cliff, really, I mean, how weeven had a rope, tie tied to the
plane.
So if we did fall, which, by theway, no one's ever fallen, uh,
you know, we weren't going tofall to the ground.
So yeah, you really have to takesome time look at It's

Kush (01:03:05):
what is, uh, spurring you these days, what activities are
firing in your belly

Well, I, Learned to fly a gyrocopter for the book
because I was interested in hownovelty is important as we age
because it tends to drop off.
I mean, very few people learnsomething new in their later
life.
So I learned to fly agyrocopter.
I was already a pilot, but itwas a very different machine.
It's a very odd looking machine.
It's like a helicopter, a tinylittle helicopter with an open

(01:03:35):
cockpit, and I've really fallenin love with it to be honest.
And so I fly, I fly my gyro alot, um, and the other thing is
a friend of mine's learned tosail, so I sail with her.
I don't really want to learn tosail, but I like this whole new
medium of being out on theocean, I'd like to learn to
navigate, uh, and Yeah.

(01:03:57):
So I'm a, you know, I have myone wheel and my electric bike

Kush (01:04:03):
and and you have the, this drive to go and learn new
things?
Which is this?
Unifying theme that I hear from,let's say, accomplished
overachievers that I speak withthis, um, world class climate
that I just interviewed, and hemay be on the show before you,

(01:04:27):
Hans Loreen, multiple speedrecords on El Capitan.
And he actually helped launchthis challenge.
And I think it's, it's, uh, it'sa website and, uh, the moniker,
I think is it's either TNT trynew things or dynamite DHT,
which is do hard things.
And it posts differentchallenges for people to go and

(01:04:50):
do.
Some things could be easy forone person, but could be very
new and difficult for somebodyelse.
But I think the, the goal is totry something which is new.
And I think one factor that hewas sharing was that when one
does try and learn new things,it can actually help transfer

(01:05:13):
this learning process to thingsthat one is Already doing.
And, uh, it's really interestingthat whole neurochemistry thing
with learning.
how have you experienced, let'ssay any other mental and
emotional benefits yourself frommaintaining this active

(01:05:36):
lifestyle over the years?
We have talked about a couple ofthings, but any other benefits
that you find?
In yourself or benefits thathave come to your community.

I mean, I do think that, uh, what I was talking
about, that sort of mindset,people say, Oh, you're 60.
And I say, yeah, I'm 60, butusually I'm standing like next
to my one wheel with mysurfboard or with my gyrocopter.
I look like I'm 60, but whatthey can't, it.
Compute is that it's a 60 yearold woman who's doing these

(01:06:08):
things.
there's this kind of, virtuousfeedback loop.
You know, somebody is admiringthat you're, you're 60 and
you're supposed to be kind ofdecrepit and there you are on a
skateboard and that feels good.
You know, I want there to be atime when people aren't, are no
longer surprised that a 60 yearold is on a skateboard.

(01:06:29):
A skateboard or flying a gyrocopter.

Kush (01:06:32):
I agree.
That's the kind of reality I amdreaming of myself.
Now, just some questions that Ilike to ask some of the people I
speak with who are accomplishingamazing things with their
routines and their lifestyles asthey're getting older.
Any specific types of workouts,let's say for strength,

(01:06:54):
mobility, for cross training, etcetera, that allow you to keep
performing?

You know, I've always lifted weights because I was a
rower in college and then it wasa firefighter and I've just
continued to lift weights.
So I, and I lift heavy weights.
I mean, you know, obviouslythere's a lot of women stronger
than me, but I'm not liftingthese baby weights.
Um, so I think just being astrong in general has always
helped me.

(01:07:21):
Um, and I work out.
I work out basically six days aweek.
I take a one day off causeyou're supposed to.
Um, and that really, that reallyhelps not only on a strength
level, but on a kinetic level,just being able to be more in
touch with my body when I movethrough the world.
It's important, especially as weage.

Kush (01:07:42):
great.
And what kind of nutrition doyou provide yourself to be able
to, uh, to work out hard and toperform hard and nutrition, not
just in terms of your meals, butany supplementation that helps
you as well?
So I'm vegan and I've been veganfor probably 15 years now.

(01:08:03):
Um, and I was vegan when I wasyoung, but it was a lot harder
then.
And now, I mean, I think there'sjust no doubt that being vegan
is really, um, up to my energyand health.
And I do take one, a Vegaprotein powder once a day, just
to make sure.
And I, I take kind of theaverage amount of, I don't take

(01:08:24):
a lot of supplements.
Um, and I don't really worry alot about what I eat.
Um, I'm, I happen to have a verymuscular frame, probably from
just lifting weights for solong.
And, uh, and the being vegan isreally meant that I, uh, I worry
less about things like cancerand being dairy free, I think is

(01:08:46):
really important.
I'm vegan actually for theanimals and for the planet, but
it's just the side benefit isthat I feel, uh, you know,
pretty unstoppable.
Caroline, there are many thingsI Like about you, but this thing
I absolutely love that you'revegan.
I am almost entirely plant basedmyself.

(01:09:07):
One day I will hopefully govegan and One thing that I keep
hearing from people is theimportance of maintaining
muscle, which you are doing, butalso being able to provide
enough protein to one's diet.
And people sometimes challengevegan diets because they don't
get enough protein.
So is this something that youwould like to either debunk or,

(01:09:32):
or you would like to provide,information on how you're able
to, to, uh, provide all thenutrients, including protein as
part of your, uh, daily, uh,nourishment.

All I can, all I can do is quote the strongest man in
the world when he was quoted onthat documentary about vegan
athletes, uh, where he, peoplesaid, how can you be strong as
an ox and, uh, and not eat meat?
And he said, what do you thinkan ox eats?
all I can tell you is that Ihave a, you know, I feel really

(01:10:06):
healthy and I think we are most,we've come from a mostly plant
based, um, ancestry because itwas always hard to get meat.
And, You know, and I definitelythink dairy is really bad for
you.
I mean, there's no question thatthere's only, there's one
function for dairy cows milk,and that's to make a calf grow

(01:10:29):
to be a thousand pounds in aboutthree days.
So if you want to ingest that,and also not to mention the
antibiotics, but also, and alsothe, the, the terrible like, um,
health conditions, which seepinto that milk with the pus and
the, so it's, it's, um, youknow, I, I don't really try to
defend my lifestyle because.

(01:10:50):
If you don't, all I can tell youis that I, if you want to arm
wrestle me, I will do that withyou.
If you want to swim, oh, howabout this?
Try to swim, uh, against my twinsister, because she does 11 mile
races and she's been vegan foralmost 25 years.
So if you want to talk protein,I don't, can't give you the

(01:11:12):
numbers, but let's get in thewater and let's see who has the
most endurance and stamina andstrength.

Kush (01:11:18):
Great answer.
Just some final fun questionsbefore we wrap it up.
On the topic of food, what isone meal that you could eat
every day?

okay.
Well, there's a meal that I ameating every day.
It's a takeout meal.
I'm sorry.
And I don't usually like tolike, uh, you know, um, promote
any corporation, but there's asalad place in the mission and I
get a particular salad.
With tahini dressing.
It's basically got like falafeland edamame and, um, beets and

(01:11:56):
it's a wide beret and then ithas this lemon tahini dressing
and I swear to God, I've eatenit every single night and my
friends can attest to thishooked a lot of people on it.

Kush (01:12:06):
sounds delicious

Yes.

Kush (01:12:10):
Caroline, in recent memory, what has been the best
hundred dollars that you'vespent?

the best hundred dollars that I've spent.
I mean, I flew my, um, hold it.
Let me, let me think.
Oh, okay.
I just upgraded my one wheel.
That was more than a hundreddollars.
I will tell you, but uh, puttinga hundred dollars into something

(01:12:37):
that I really love.
Uh, felt good, you know, tospend some money on it's
frivolous but I felt like Iwanted to upgrade a little bit.
So you'll see me on my new onewheel soon

Kush (01:12:50):
Beautiful.
And, last question.
In the last five years, say,what has been perhaps one
routine habit or behavior whichhas most impacted your life?

in the past five years.
I I would say that in the past10 years, since I've had my dog,
I go out every twice a day andwalk my dog.
It used to be a lot longer andit's a, it's a, such a great
practice because.
I don't, I bring my phone, but Idon't, I really try never to
look at it because I feel likemy dog realizes when I'm looking

(01:13:29):
at my phone and it's not reallyfair to her.
Cause otherwise this is time wecan spend together.
And it's really made me, um,appreciate walking more, which
always seemed a little.
Boring to me.
I know.
And, uh, but it's, it's not.
And walking with a dog is sogreat.
And I let her stop and sniff andit's, I'm not actually sniffing,

(01:13:49):
I promise, but I'm also stoppingwhen she is and looking around.
And, um, I, I see people whowalk their dogs and they're
constantly on their phone and Idon't know what their life is.
Maybe they don't.
Maybe at home, they don't have achance to look at their phone,
so now they get to, I don't wantto judge too much, but I do feel
like it's this opportunity togo, to really slow down and,

(01:14:09):
and, um, kind of pay attentionto your environment in the
service of what you have to do,which is walk your dog for an
hour, twice a day, and that'sreally been a great practice.
Uh,

Kush (01:14:23):
we are lucky.
I have a, I have a small dogand, uh, who loves walking and
stopping and sniffing, though Ialso, uh, I'm not confessing to
doing the same myself.
But yes, we also like to live ina place with the weather we
have, which makes gettingoutside fun and beautiful.

(01:14:43):
Before we go, Caroline, you justwrote this amazing book and you
also wrote some other greatbooks.
Gutsy Girl is also on mybookshelf that I intend to read.
Where can people find yourbooks?
And learn more about you.
And also you have this wholebeautiful event schedule.
Where can people find some ofthis information if they ever

(01:15:04):
want to, uh, interact with youin, in person?

well, I could be found through my website, um,
carolinepaul.
com.
There's a contact there.
And then, and there's alsoevents there though, no longer
in the Bay Area, but I'm headingto Des Moines next week.
So if you, cause I'm going to beinterviewing the oldest BMX bike
racer, Miss Kitty, Kitty WestonNauer, who's in the book.

(01:15:29):
Uh, we're going to be on, on,uh, at a bookstore together.
And, um, then I go to the Eastcoast, but, um, and then I'll be
at the outside magazinefestival, outside magazine is
putting on their first festivalin December, excuse me, June
1st.
So I'll be doing a talk there.
And I think I'm hanging out withRebecca Rush, who's this
incredible, um, mountain bikerand then Juliet Starrett, of

(01:15:51):
course, of, uh, the ready state,uh, fame.
And who just put out a book withher husband, Kelly Starrett, uh,
built to move, which was on theNew York times bestseller list.
And I think we're, we might bedoing a talk together.
Anyway, I'm, I'm be reallypsyched if I could be in their
gilded presence, but there'slots of other incredible
athletes.
Ray Wynn Grant will be thereoutdoors.

(01:16:14):
Yeah, it's going to be a, it's areal honor to, to be there.
I was, I'm actually in OutsideMagazine this month.
Yeah.
Which is hilarious.
Cause I, I read, used to readOutside Magazine so much after.
National geographic kind of fellaway and, uh, for adventures.
And then, well, there I am thismonth, April, March, April.
so yeah, sorry, Caroline MB Paulthat I, sorry, Caroline Paul.

(01:16:38):
com is my.
Uh, website.
And then I can be on, I'm seeingon Instagram at Caroline M as in
Michael B as in Bravo, Paul,

Kush (01:16:48):
Thanks for all those links.
We will put those links in theshow notes, and if people were
to, wanted to buy your book, canthey find those links on your
website or where's the bestplace to buy your books so you
get the most benefit from thepurchase?

Well, I, I love independent bookstores.
So go to your independentbookstore, your local bookstore.
They'll order it if they don'thave it on the shelf,

Kush (01:17:13):
Folks, go read Tough Broad and, uh, Caroline, you are one
Tough Broad.
Thanks for, uh, coming on theshow.
It's been a delight.
We hope you're as inspired byCaroline Paul, as we were

(01:17:34):
remember, it's never too late toembrace adventure and discover
the joy of the outdoors.
Pick up a copy of tough broad.
Find your own adventure andshare your experiences with us.
Thanks for joining us.
This is.
from the each list athletepodcast.
Get outside, find youradventure.

(01:17:55):
Stay ageless.
And come back and see us nexttime.

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#17 Caroline Paul - From Firefighting to Wing Walking, Transforming Fear into Awe

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#17 Caroline Paul - From Firefighting to Wing Walking, Transforming Fear into Awe