Rare privilege of meeting with Dr Kevin Starr, accomplished rock climber, big wave surfer and social enterprise CEO. Growing up in San Diego, Kevin fell in love with both the mountains and the ocean, started hiking and climbing around California, and went on to accomplish daring alpine ascents in the Karakorams, Peru and beyond. Moving to San Francisco, Kevin found a good mentor and also started learning how to tackle big waves like the Mavericks outside Half Moon Bay. Along the way he left a perfectly good medical career to grow the Mulago foundation that helps global social entrepreneurs design for impact at scale. Listen in for how Kevin juggles a career as the CEO of Mulago, along with continuing to excel in the outdoors, all while keeping his mind and body in great shape. (And did I just invent the term 'jugglery')
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Friends, welcome back.
Welcome back to the AgelessAthlete Podcast, where we tap
into secrets and stories of agedefying, high performing
athletes.
Today on the show, I have therare privilege of meeting with
Dr.
Kevin Starr, accomplished rockclimber, big wave surfer, and
(00:33):
social enterprise CEO.
Growing up in San Diego, Kevinfell in love with both the
mountains and the ocean.
Started hiking and climbingaround California and went on to
accomplish daring alpine ascentsin the Himalayas, Peru and
(00:53):
beyond.
Moving to San Francisco.
Kevin found a good mentor andalso started learning how to
tackle big waves in SanFrancisco and around.
Along the way he left aperfectly good medical career to
grow the Mulago Foundationhelping social entrepreneurs
(01:15):
globally designed for impact atscale.
I can't wait to uncover howKevin juggles a career as the
CEO of Mulago, along withcontinuing to excel in the
outdoors, while keeping his mindand body in great shape.
(01:41):
Kevin, hey, um, how's it goingthis, uh, this Friday, uh, foggy
afternoon?
Well, it seems like it's a LaNina year and the fog is in here
at the beach and, um, We alwayshoped that by mid September
we're done with it, but might aswell, might as well love it.
(02:04):
Yeah, yeah, well, uh, at leasttoday it doesn't seem to be.
I think it's a bit overcast, uh,at Ocean Beach, but, uh, but I
think by now the fog has, hasmostly burnt off, and I think
it's somewhat for teachers thatwe had in this conversation,
and, uh, the surf season isunderway.
And, uh, for those of us who arenot watching this, uh, watching
(02:27):
the video, there is thisbeautiful, uh, frame art of, uh,
this, uh, this big wave, uh,breaking in your, uh,
background, if I may ask whereis this piece of art from?
It's, um, it's the YMASShorebreak.
Ah.
You can see how shallow it is atthe base of the picture.
Sure, sure.
(02:49):
Um.
And, uh, did you get it rightfrom the artist and in Hawaii?
No, no, I got it from Ikea.
That's a dirty secret that Ithink I just told a bunch of
people.
But it's like it costs a ton toget a picture blown up like
(03:12):
this, but I would blow up apicture like this.
And I'm literally getting, youknow, silverware some shit in
And I see this from way acrossthe room.
So it's been up there forever.
That's funny.
And I bet, I don't know how manylaughs you've had, uh, sharing
this, uh, you know, sharing yourbetter secret with, uh, other
(03:36):
admirers.
Yeah, Well, that's, I'm only,only, I'm only sharing with you
'cause I'm trying to get some,some, uh.
Candor cred here.
Okay, right.
So far, you know, Two minutesinto the conversation.
Yes.
Uh, the candor, uh, points arecoming your way, but hey, uh,
(03:57):
Kevin, great to be connected.
Uh, it's certainly been severalyears.
Met at the gym last and I thinkwe also met once at ocean beach,
which I think about the sametime.
I think it was a weekend morningand it was one of those days
where the waves were not verybig, but I was, uh, I think I
was struggling to get out.
(04:19):
And I think you and others werelike, I think you would either
finish the surf or, um, or we'recoming back, uh, or maybe we'll,
we're going out at that time.
Are you still, uh, writing herout, uh, at surf and ocean beach
or, uh, do you.
Gravity to other places.
No, I'm a regular when I'm noton the beach with an injury.
(04:44):
Okay.
Fair.
And I think a lot of us can, uh,can probably, uh, share some of
those sentiments.
Um, Hey, just taking a quickstep back, Kevin, would you mind
sharing a little bit about whatyou do and, uh, the different
dimensions you are involved in?
Yeah, I mean, most of my energythese days goes into my work at
(05:09):
a foundation called Milago, andI'm the CEO, and what we do is
we try to find people withsolutions to poverty that we
think could go really big, andthen we teach them about design
and strategy, And then we fundthem and advise them over years.
(05:31):
And as long as we see thatthey're making big, serious
progress toward exponentialscale, like kids lives saved or
kids literate or farmers makingmore money or whatever it might
be.
We're mostly in Sub SaharanAfrica and the poor parts of
Asia, but I've got about 12people on the team.
(05:56):
We spend about 25 million ayear, and we work with a lot of
funders who follow ourportfolio.
So, all in all, we're helpingmove a lot of money now.
That's, uh, that's incredible,Kevin.
And I know you've been doingthis for some time now, but that
was, I believe, not your, uh,original calling.
(06:20):
So, uh, would you mind justsharing very quickly, uh, how
did you end up in this space?
Well, when I was in med schoolat UCSF, I, um, started a
project in the Peruvian Andes.
I'd been, I'd spent two seasonsclimbing in the Cordillera
Blanca and Cordillera Huayhuash.
(06:41):
And, um, I started a, uh,project to train local health
workers, community healthworkers in Peru by bringing a
group of doctors and medicalstudents down and going on tours
through the mountain range tovisit their towns and, and teach
and learn.
And, um, I had a mentor namedReiner Arnhold, who was a very
(07:05):
accomplished pediatrician who'dworked all over the world, and
he was in his late 60s, and by1993, because of the Peruvian
Civil War, we'd moved theproject to Bolivia, the Bolivian
amputees, and Reiner suddenly,on one of the hikes, dropped
dead.
He had a massive stroke, and inthe aftermath of that, I get to
(07:27):
know his family, And they'd beenin banking for generations, and
it turned out my friend Reiner,who was kind of a dirtbag like
the rest of us, um, had 50million.
And his family said, let's starta foundation and Kevin, you
know, his work, well, would youhelp?
(07:49):
And then long story short, itjust got more and more
interesting and took over moreand more of my life, um, to the
point where, you know, I justkind of tapered down, down, down
with medicine and up, up, upwith that.
And, um, I think my last patientI really saw formally was 9
years ago.
(08:10):
That's quite a story, uh, Kevinand, uh.
One is, uh, I guess obviously inhindsight, uh, uh, Reinhold's
family picked probably the rightperson.
Unlikely.
Uh, I mean, uh, Maybe you didnot fit the resume of somebody
(08:30):
who would do that, but it lookslike they fit the perfect person
to carry his work forward.
And then the second thing isthat, uh, is something I wanted
to come to later in thisconversation is, uh, is kind of,
uh, Finding that common threadbetween the outdoors and the
work you do.
So I think you just, uh, youjust kind of shared the genesis
(08:52):
of that.
Um, where can people go to learnmore about the Mulago foundation
and the work that you do?
Um, we built a website that Ithink does a pretty good job of
communicating what we do and whowe do it with.
And it's just MulagoFoundation.
(09:13):
org, Mulago spelled N U L A G O.
And, um, people have anycritique, I'd love to hear it.
That's right.
Perfect.
People are ready to go now.
Now, uh, coming, uh, coming to alittle bit of, uh, sort of your,
uh, story with, uh, theoutdoors.
(09:34):
Uh, one is, I would love to heara little bit about, uh, the
outdoor, uh, activities that youhave, uh, been, uh, engaged in
over the last, uh, few decades.
I know you from the lens ofclimbing and, uh, surfing.
So we'd love to hear a littlebit about both of those
(09:54):
activities, uh, how you gotstarted with them.
And then also maybe some ofyour, uh, making a long question
even longer, maybe some of your,uh, prouder moments with both.
Wow.
Well, one, I'll, I'll just talkabout getting started and then
you can repeat the proudest andonly question if you want.
(10:17):
Sure.
Um, I've, oh, I grew up in SanDiego and I've always loved the
mountains and the ocean.
And I think I was never able tochoose between them.
So I ended up finding some wayto experience both.
And, um, my dad took me up.
I first typed up Mount Whitneywhen I was 11.
(10:41):
And my dad would take, he wasn'ta client or anything, but he
would take me to what back then,you know, people would get
slideshows and you'd go watch,you know, what's his name,
Whitaker.
Um, give a slideshow on climbingEverest.
And I went to the one that was,I can't even remember who it
(11:02):
was.
Um, but it was about Taiji Peakin the Karakoram and I was like
15 or something.
And I thought there's nothingthat would be better than doing
that.
And then light took over and Ididn't.
(11:22):
I didn't really, I learned,started learning to rock climb
at college at UC San Francisco.
And I had a really good Yosemiteclimber named Jim Elias kind of
took me under his wing.
And, uh, by the end of college,I was kind of competent.
(11:42):
And then I, during med school,we used to go, we used to go up
to the weekend and we'd study inthe, in the, um.
At night until they kicked usout and then go climb as long as
we could get away within theday.
Um, and then after residency, Istarted doing right before med
(12:04):
school.
Um, it was funny, I broke myankle really badly on a, on a
fist cracked called fist tocuffs.
And, and Joshua Trippe.
It's like this 10 B, 10 C, um,overhanging fist crack, and I
shattered my talus, or actuallyjust broke it, like it was
(12:27):
twisted and broken.
Ouch.
And, and then, um, so I had thisbig surgery, and then this long
recovery, and then they told me,you know, don't do anything that
hurts.
Well, everything hurts.
And so I was doing less and lessand less and getting more and
more depressed.
(12:47):
And then I met this orthopod whosaid, no, no, no, no, no.
Don't, it will stop you when ithurts.
Just do it as much as you want.
Do as much as you want.
And that was like getting out ofjail.
And that summer I first went toPeru and we climbed Pan.
And I must have hiked a hundredmiles with backpacks on.
(13:11):
And I actually, my ankle startedto hurt less and when they did
the surgery, they said, we'regoing to have to fuse this, this
joint, this talus joint orsubtalar joint, um, by your time
you're 40 and I'm 63.
And it's just going, it's alittle stiff sometimes, but it
works just fine.
(13:32):
I can't dorsiflex by as much asI would like to, which, which
has, uh, relevance aroundsurfing, but it's not, it's,
it's not disabling.
Did that, uh, I guess, uh, uh,Dallas.
stiffness also hinder you fromgoing back to that same crack in
(13:55):
Yasha tree.
And, uh, finally, I guesscompleting it, uh, because you
have to, you know, use your feetto jam those cracks often.
And I know from experience, uh,when you're twisting your, you
know, crack labbing forces usinto these, like really, uh,
let's call them orthopedicNightmarish, uh, body positions
(14:20):
where you're twisting andpulling yourself in contorted
ways.
No, it doesn't really seem tomatter.
My wife and I were in, we're inJoshua tree last winter.
And just for fun, we did alittle pilgrimage to fisticuffs.
I thought, Hey, no, that's thething.
(14:41):
Um, and, and no, it kind ofspeaks to like, I don't want, I
love long.
A lot of long routes in themountains, that's what I love to
do.
And, um, I want to, you know,use sport climbing and, and
short one pitch climbs and thatsort of thing to try to get
better.
But I sure as hell don't want toget hurt doing that.
(15:04):
So I'm going to treat thatreally gently and, you know,
maybe fisticuffs would be worthdoing now, but I don't know,
just seems to have bad juju.
If I want to prove something, Idon't want to prove that I don't
need to prove.
Got it.
Got it.
Yeah.
One has to, uh, one has to beselective about one's, uh, one's
battles.
(15:24):
Um, in what you just said, Ipicked up a few different things
about your climbing history.
You spoke off being inspired by,let's say climbs in the
Himalayas.
I heard about Mount Everest.
I heard about the Karakorams.
I heard about obviously some ofyour, uh.
You know, some of, some of thecracks closer to you, Joshua
(15:45):
tree.
And then I also heard aboutYosemite.
So over, over the decades, uh,I, uh, having, having climbed,
I'm guessing in, in those placesand more, any particular moments
stand out, uh, uh, that you, youeither very proud of, or they,
uh, they, they make for, uh,just achievements that you will,
(16:08):
uh, always take with you.
Well, um, the high point of mymountain career was, I guess,
uh, was, was Triangle Tower backin 94, and, um, I went with, uh,
(16:29):
Willie Benegas and, um, EricBrand to try a new route on, try
the first route on the NorthFace.
And, um, it ended up taking, uh,18 days to get up and three days
(16:52):
to get down.
So it was 21 days on the walland it was a, it was a, just an
utterly extraordinaryexperience.
And I wouldn't do it again.
Amazing.
It was just so much work and Ilike, I think if I like one
thing best of all, it's fast andlight alpine climbing.
(17:14):
Um, and this was anything butjust right.
It was an extraordinaryexperience just being, it was
like being in space for threeweeks.
And we finally got up thismorning and, um, and still
getting off anything that big isstill itself an epic.
(17:37):
Isn't Triangle Tower like, uh,the biggest big wall in the
world even now?
No, I think Great Triangle is.
Okay.
Great triangle.
Great triangle is unimaginablybroad and high.
I, it's, it's triangle tower.
(17:58):
I mean, I tell people thattriangle tower is a ZFL cap sat
on top of the Mont Blanc.
Because you have to do a Alpinesort of snow and ice climb,
mostly snow, some rock to get upto the base and then.
And then you got a car and a bigwall.
(18:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm guessing this was doneexpedition style.
Like, uh, you said over threeweeks.
So were you taking a big team?
Well, it was, no, it was capsulestyle.
So once you left the ground, youdidn't come back down.
And so you had like 800 feet ofrope, a thousand feet of rope.
And you would run that up as faras you can coming up and down
(18:44):
every day.
And then you'd move the camp up.
And we only had to, we only hadto do two camps if I remember
right.
Cause you could only camp whereyou had some snow and there
ain't much snow on that place.
Sure, sure.
Yeah, it's so steep.
Yeah, that wall, this on thetiny bit, I know about it.
(19:04):
It's relentlessly steep, whichmeans that, you know, you are,
uh, it's overhanging.
It's actually overhanging.
It's kind of amazing.
Or ice will come up the top andit would be like watching a
helicopter about to crash, youknow, 50, a hundred feet out in
the air on its way down.
That's incredible.
(19:25):
Any other things that you, uh,care to, uh, share about climbs
closer to home?
Well, um, another, you know,Willie and I met up in, in the
valley some years later, andWillie Banegas is in his way, I
(19:45):
think, one of the best climbersin the world.
And, um, we just hadn't seeneach other for a while, we'd
just spent three days climbing,and, you know, Because Willie
was pushing me.
It's like, we just did this warmup one day on the East Batra Sub
Metal and then the next day wedid the East Batra Sub Metal
Cap, and the next day we did,uh, Half Dome, Bardikar in 14
(20:12):
hours.
And that was, that was a highpoint.
I never approached anything likeit since.
Wow, it sounds like a heck of along weekend.
Three every year and all likekind of leading up to the other.
I mean, yeah, but by today'sstandards, it was like baby
(20:35):
steps.
But for me back then with a goodfriend, it was wonderful.
Yeah, I know.
I, I not quite, uh, not quitethe same clients, but I remember
one weekend where I had, uh,another really strong, uh,
friend visiting me from Germany.
And, uh, I think over threedays, I think we did, I think we
(20:59):
did.
Um, I know we did the rostrum onthe second day and I think we
did something easier on thethird day.
No, Royal arches one day,rostrum second day.
Uh, and then I think a hard dayof cragging the third day.
And the fourth day he wanted todo, go and do Astroman and I
(21:22):
basically folded my hand andsaid, no, I can't, this body is
not going to listen to me in a,in a smaller way.
I can empathize.
In retrospect, I am sort of ina, in a small way proud of those
few days of like being able tokeep up with like a young
whippersnapper and um, and thenalso, yeah, I think it was, it
(21:42):
was fun to kind of.
Push myself to, uh, as you know,as, as a weekend cragger and as
somebody who's not, uh, who'snot really, uh, you know, a
track time or really, uh, topush myself.
It's one thing you said, whichwas kind of interesting, Kevin,
you said, you know, that youwant to use, you know, I guess,
uh, yeah, shorter class to trainyourself for, for like bigger,
(22:04):
uh, let's say just bigger onscale adventures outside because
you don't want to get hurt.
Right.
And it's interesting how I havethe other perspective, which is,
uh, uh, I am, I guess, currentlymore focused from a background
is more like short, but thanksfor climbing and some
bouldering.
And for me, I am, I've scaledback a bit on like Alpine and
(22:28):
Chad, uh, climbing because Idon't want to get hurt doing
those things.
Keep me from thing.
Doing like more, let's say, um,doing other things with
climbing.
So it's, it's interesting how weboth come from like these, uh,
opposite, uh, I, uh, Alpineclimbing is probably more likely
(22:50):
to kill you and maybe lesslikely to hurt.
Fair, fair.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
And, uh, that's right.
You know, it's, it's going to belike one hell of a, one hell of
a way to go.
Um, um, so just switching gearsa little bit.
You also surf, and I knowyou've, uh, been doing that for
(23:12):
a while, did that story beginwith your, uh, with your, uh,
childhood in San Diego?
Is that where you learned tosurf?
And, uh, has that kind of, uh,Yeah, well, you know, Southern
California is about cars and Ilived inland and I didn't have a
car till I was 17.
(23:33):
So I couldn't really get to thebeach.
Um, you know, as much as onecould to really get, get into
and get at surfing.
And so then when I had a car, Istarted going up to like Big
Rock and La Jolla.
And that was a really cool waythat it was a new boarding
(23:53):
scene.
Steve Liss and all those guys,you know, very influenced by By
George Green on and, um, and soI started me boring, you know,
cause that's just a tight littlebarely wave and the boardings
seem like the learning curve wasshorter and naturally the
impatient, lazy.
(24:15):
So, I started me boarding, whichis the biggest.
I'm lucky that that's thebiggest single regret of my
life.
Uh, because then I went up to UCSanta Cruz College and I kept
kneeboarding.
I had a really, so much fun onthe, on the North coast, but by
(24:38):
the end of university, I waskind of getting really intrigued
with big waves and you can'tsurf big waves on a knee board.
And, uh, and so I ended up goingto med school at UC San
Francisco, and honestly, Ididn't even know there were good
wives here.
It was just the one use.
I couldn't, I couldn't afford togo anything outside of
(24:59):
California.
I didn't want to, and it was theone that was, I was in, I was in
love with Northern Californiaone time and it was the, the one
med school that was near theocean in Northern California.
So I wanted to go there.
And then, then I had a firstyear, my first year advisor in
(25:20):
medical school was Mark Reneker.
Most people know him as DocReneker.
And so he got me out into OceanBeach and then was kind of my
mentor and trying to learn howto stand up surf and surf big
waves at the same time.
I mean, in retrospect, OceanBeach is a terrible place to
(25:41):
learn how to surf.
I didn't mind the beating.
Don't tell me about it.
Tell me about it.
12 years in and still trying to,uh, master the basics.
Yeah.
I mean, some people called mestupid because I just, I would
go out and days, I probably hadno business going out and I
could stick with it until I gotout.
(26:02):
And weirdly, I got better atwriting bigger waves because you
kind of have more time to getset.
Um, but still, you know, OceanBeach, how many waves do you get
out in a, how many waves do youget in an Ocean Beach section?
You take half an hour to getout, and then some days you seem
(26:22):
to find the rhythm, and you getinto the double digits, but
mostly, no, I should say mostlyI don't.
There are people who I justwatch that are just machines.
Uh, I'm not that, but you justdon't get that many waves at
Ocean Beach compared to, youknow, if you, if you sucked it
(26:42):
up and were surfing in a SantaCruz reef, you just get so many
more waves.
Sure.
No, I think that's, um, um, Ithink that's, that is so true.
Um, even for people who arequite dedicated, I think.
I think it's, it's hard to, hardto predict with any reliability,
(27:03):
how a particular session mightgo on a proper, uh, proper day
in the season because ocean,yeah, ocean beach can be, you
know, very temperamental.
It can be, uh, it can be, youknow, the, sort of the great
decider of how you might do on aparticular day.
(27:23):
And I did not know this, uh,Kevin, that you were part of,
uh, you know, doc's, uh, docRenick's school of, uh,
prodigies, uh, by the way, I amtalking to, uh, I managed to,
uh, get a hold of him.
So I am going to be hopefullyhaving him on this, uh, on the,
(27:43):
on the show later on, uh, theseason.
So I, I look forward to thatcombination because I've never
surfed or met Doc in person, butI was inspired by, uh, the New
Yorker article from, you know,many moons ago.
And it's great to hear that.
Yeah.
You have surfed with, uh, with,uh, with Doc, uh, you know, when
(28:05):
we're learning.
Ocean Beach, and I think youstill continue to surf with him
to the day.
Well, Steve, he is, um, he's notreally inspiring, uh, figure to
the older surfer, because he'seight years older than me, and,
and he can still paddle better.
He'd still get out, I think, ondays, you know, everybody keeps
(28:28):
track of the one or two days inthe season when they just don't
get out.
And I think, I suspect in agiven season, my total is still
higher.
That's amazing.
So yeah, he's just inspiring.
I'm glad you're going to talk tohim.
I think you'll learn a lot moretalking to him than you do to
me.
Different, different things fromdifferent people, uh, given
(28:51):
that, uh, Kevin, given that, youknow, you do, uh, you, you pour
so much energy into your workand, uh, and also into, uh, into
climbing and into surfing.
I mean, these are likeextremely, you know, time taking
activities and, and most peoplewould be proud of just, uh,
succeeding in just one of them.
(29:11):
And you are, you know, you aredoing things with all three of
them.
How are you able to, uh, To keepthem in balance, any things
you've learned over the years,any, any practices you follow to
the day?
Um, I read, I read a, uh, Idon't really read the Harvard
(29:33):
Business Review that much, but Ijust happened to see it sitting
around the office once.
And I read an article and Ididn't really read much past the
title because I felt likesometimes I didn't.
The title was, there is no worklife balance, there's only
choice.
And I, I tell my, my founders,my social entrepreneurs.
(29:55):
I use that all the time becausework life balance is some kind
of abstract thing and choicesare real and so you can say I'm
gonna surf this season and Iknow what it takes to surf ocean
beach um Well enough, which,which means get out and, um, and
(30:22):
it's fickle.
And so you got to have a certainlevel of flexibility and you
make that choice.
That's I'm going to do that.
And I'm also going to have a joband I'm going to work my ass off
at it.
But if you don't make somechoices, I'm going to spend this
time with my family.
I'm going to spend this timesurfing.
(30:43):
If you love your work, yourwork's going to seep down to all
the cracks and, and that'sactually pretty awesome unless
you don't like your work.
But if you want to, if you wantto do these other things, you
have to make a choice to do it.
And so I don't try to balance mylife and work sometimes my life.
(31:03):
My work utterly takes over everyfiber of my being and every
second of my available time.
And then sometimes in surfseason, uh, I don't even want to
admit how little time it'lltake.
Um, same as in the summer.
I want to be in the mountains asmuch as possible in the summer.
(31:25):
Carve that out so that my workisn't suffering.
But I'm gonna do that.
And I'm gonna do it every year,year in and year out.
Oops, I think you might be onmute.
Kevin, yes, uh, amazing.
(31:46):
No, I think those might be wordsto live by, yes.
There isn't, um There isn't, uh,I think balance is maybe only
temporal and, and, you know,choices, uh, matter more.
And I think one smart choicethat I can see you have made is,
uh, is building a home right bythe water.
(32:07):
So you don't have to spend time,uh, you know, admiring the ocean
from a camera or from photos.
You can actually be there.
Um, any other, um, intentional,uh, things you have done in your
life.
Uh, like one thing you mentionedis, uh, maybe, uh, training
your, your team in a certainway.
(32:27):
Maybe you can talk more aboutthat.
Maybe some other choices thatyou have made and also Kevin,
any trade offs there?
Any what?
Any trade offs?
Trade offs, because again, youknow, you're executing, uh, uh,
at a high level across, uh,across disciplines.
(32:47):
Well, you don't, you don't havea, a counterfactual, my
assumptions always been that youtake a career hit from doing
this other stuff.
Um, I know people who I don't, Idon't know have, and, and Mark
Reniker has chosen a way ofdoing medicine that is so
(33:08):
compatible with the surfing thatI think that he has, um, Yeah.
Managed to do both spectacularlywell, have a, have a wife and
surfing and how I've extort doextraordinary work.
Um, I have a more conventional,uh, work day because I have a
(33:31):
team that I want to work with.
And the one choice I, I guessit's a choice is that I'm going
to do that thing.
I'm going to really assiduouslydo that thing of hiring people
that are smarter.
So I get a team that can dostuff.
Um, Maybe as good as I can do orbetter than I can do, and it's
(33:55):
the team that's going to outlastme anyway, so it's in my
interest now and later to buildthat team.
I don't, I mean this thing, thelogo went really slowly.
At the beginning, and now it'sreally taken off, but it went
slowly because, uh, I did ERmedicine when I finished because
(34:22):
I wanted big chunks of time off.
And if you work rural ERs, youcan write your own ticket.
And so I got to spend a lot oftime doing these things as I
started to build Milagro and asI had a medical career and I
could build it really slowly.
And normally if someone came tome as a founder and said, I'm
(34:44):
going to do this thing that'sgoing to change the world, but
I'm going to do it reallyslowly.
I'd say, well, You know, comeback when you're ready to go all
out, but I had the luxury.
I didn't even know what I wasbuilding.
I had no long term vision, but Ido know that if you, if you want
to spend a ton of time outdoors,but, but I won't have a career
(35:12):
that is not based in theoutdoors, that career is going
to take a hit.
And again, it's choices, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, absolutely choices.
And, you know, there aredifferent ways to look at it.
Uh, I think me personally, um,um, I, I took some time, I've
taken time, chunks of time in mycareer to pursue climbing, to
(35:36):
pursue surfing.
And I, I think I realized that Ipersonally don't have any talent
to do those things full time.
So for me, To be able to staymotivated and actually, actually
be motivated for climbing andsurfing.
I have to have like a moreconventional career around.
You know, doing things behindthe desk and working with
(35:58):
people.
So I think for me, that balanceseems to, obviously you are
taking hits, but in some waysit's also kind of coming
together because, because onething keeps me motivated to, uh,
to engage and, uh, succeed in,uh, in the other.
I think doing just one thingmakes it a little bit, uh, My,
(36:19):
I, I just couldn't, I could,that wasn't complicated enough
for me.
So I'm married a wonderfulFrench woman.
And have to be back there a lotand my job also requires a ton
of travel and travel kills youlike it's really hard to stay
fit when traveling and Iactually tell the people where
(36:44):
I'm going, I'm going to have acouple hours each day for some
exercise, even if we're in thein rural Zambia.
And so, uh, and it's not alwaysmanaged.
And the problem for me is I'm,there are some people who would
be looking for it.
Oh God, I can't wait till myrun.
And for me, it's like, okay, Icarved out the time how I got to
(37:06):
go run.
Cause I actually hate workingout in all its forms.
And I do it because it makes meable to do the things I'd love
better and longer.
But God, I hate it.
I get it.
No, I think it's for me again.
Yeah.
Exercise is kind of means.
(37:27):
To an end, and I think thesports that I engage in, I think
I think of them as play.
Um, so Kevin, um, yeah, I do twothings I wanted to ask you of
that one is, are you able tocombine any of your work trips
to some of these places aroundthe world?
I know that, you know, you'refunded, for example, if he's
looked into fundingentrepreneurs in places, even
such as Pakistan.
(37:48):
Where the, uh, triangle is.
So one question I have is, um,if you have successfully been
able to combine, uh, any tripswhere you've been able to, you
know, climb mountains or surfwith the work you're doing, um,
let's start with that questionfirst.
Um, do and more in the past thanI have in present, and I hope I
(38:14):
do it more in the future, whichis to say, let's see, I went to
Tibet six times, and I didn't doany big climbs there, but I got
to see and get close to a lot ofmountains.
And the one trip to India, Iended up doing some climbing in
the Garwa and I used to keep asurfboard in Liberia.
(38:38):
It still is somewhere there.
There's just, there's someawesome waves there.
Not huge, but some reallyincredible.
Uh, points in, in, um, Liberiaand South Africa, I've got
surfing friends there.
So we have some stuff in SouthAfrica.
(38:59):
And so, so whenever I can, butthe, the thing that is funny is
when I first did Lago, I didn'treally know what a great program
was and what a great solutionwas and how to assess a great
leader.
And now we go where the bestideas and the best leaders are,
and they may be in Nigeria andNigeria is no, no picnic for a
(39:23):
climber or surfer to go to.
It's hot and flat and, um, butthe people, the energy there,
the exuberance, theentrepreneurship, and the, the,
the generation of ideas, you gotto go there if you do my kind of
work.
And it's going to have a billionpeople and by the way, like 2050
(39:46):
or something.
So, you know, I tend to, andnow, now I've got a team where
like, we all have to do ourshare of traveling.
And yeah, I mean, like two ofthem said, we're going to
Indonesia this fall.
And I'm like, wait a second.
I want to go to Indonesia.
(40:10):
So they went to Indonesia andthey didn't surf.
Maybe Kevin, I need to come joinyour team as like an intern,
just so I can, uh, be, beselfish about, uh, this, this,
some of this upcoming, uh,travel you, your team has.
Kevin, given the other, theother thing, the other thing
I'll just mention is thatsometimes you don't know, like I
(40:33):
just went to Malawi.
I'd never been to Malawi before.
Malawi has huge granite wallsthat top out at 10, 000 feet on
the border with Zimbabwe.
And then apparently there's thiswhole area of really nice
granite domes in the north ofthe country, and I just wasn't
tapped in and didn't know that,and now I'm like, I mean, I was
(40:56):
leaving and I was, I was talkingto people back home.
I was talking to my assistant.
Can you extend this?
Can I extend this?
Can we put the other part of thetrip back?
I got to go see this.
But we couldn't, so I'll, I'll,I'll have to go back.
Fair, fair.
Um, well, at least you got alittle teaser of, uh, what's out
there, maybe for a future tripor at least to share with others
(41:19):
who might end up listening tothis and, uh, end up in Malawi
at the same time.
Kevin, given, given your hectic,uh, You know, your hectic
routines.
Um, and you know, one of thethings I'm trying to understand
by talking to people such asyourself is any, any routines
that you follow, you know, itcould be things like certain
(41:41):
exercises, working with coaches,things that you've learned over
the years, help you stay in someshape.
that when you actually go backto surf or go back to climbing
after, you know, hectic travel,you're able to, uh, jumpstart,
uh, back in.
(42:02):
Um, well, more and more I'm ableto keep, like, not lose too much
ground on a trip.
And then, um, I can just dosomething every day.
You know, like, my office is onRussian Hill.
I'm on Ocean Beach.
I ride my bike as fast as I canthere and back.
(42:22):
Um, I'll go, if I got noalternative, I'll go run up and
down the dune, you know, 30times.
I'll surf.
I'll rehabilitate whatevercurrent injury I have.
And, you know, now I'm realizingthat, like, I'm going to be
doing shoulder exercises untilI'm dead.
So, those have to happen everyday.
(42:45):
Yeah, stretches, thoseexercises, you know, stabilizing
the scapula that has to happenevery day now and core strength
is going to help avoid injury.
So some of that has to happenevery day and every day for me
is different.
Like sometimes I might have totalk to somebody in Zimbabwe at
(43:07):
six o'clock in the morning andthat day is going to look very
different than the day before.
So.
You know, my life is chaos,right?
And so it's just kind of like,look at the schedule, where do I
have a break?
And I try to tell my team and myassistant, I want a three hour
break every day during surfseason somewhere.
(43:31):
And the bummer is when OceanBeach goes off in the morning
and you.
Carved that out in the afternoonand oh, well, yeah, but, um, but
I make sure there's time to dosomething every day, even if
it's go up the street and get onmy neighbor's rowing machine or
watch something on Netflix.
Um, and that's the best I cando.
I'm, I'm not.
(43:52):
I'm not a very organized person.
I'm not a very disciplinedperson.
I'm just super motivated to getto do these things.
I mean, I'm fundamentally lazy.
The best way to do things is todo the thing.
So it's first season.
Ocean beach.
I do not need other exercisesafter paddling out on 10 foot
(44:13):
ocean beach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I'm with you.
I think, uh, I think, um, thedesire to do these things, I
think that is paramount.
And I think everything else kindof follows like what you talked
about, you know, doing, doingrehab.
I I've seen that myself.
I actually stopped surfing for ayear and a half because I
(44:35):
thought I had one shoulder forthe garner.
I'm 44 and I injured theshoulder climbing at a crack in
Yosemite many years ago.
My author told me that short ofa full shoulder replacement, uh,
you know, a few years down, I, Ishouldn't use it for, uh, these
kinds of sports and long storyshort, I found a great, uh, I
(44:57):
found that was bullshit.
Yeah, that was bullshit.
So I got, and then what's theother thing that I did in my
case was I've had, uh, I finallylike I've had a timing coach.
The last few years and took methrough this assessment and they
told me that I basically have avery big shoulder.
So the rehab that they had medoing to get stronger for
(45:18):
climbing, got my shouldersstronger and mobile enough that
in a recent trip and a trip lastmonth to the, to the Dominican
Republic, which I went to dosomething else.
I actually paddled out, youknow, tentatively.
And then I.
And then I surfed every day ofthe 10 days I was there and I
(45:44):
was like, wow, I'm like, I, Isee you.
I, I really started believingthat, you know, that adage where
it's really, you have to listento your body and you have to
like, you know, look beyond whatthe medical experts might tell
you.
Having said that, any coaches ortherapists or any such
professionals that you want togive a shout out to in this
(46:07):
call?
Um, well, I have an orthopedistDave Eck and he's a surfer,
really good surfer.
And so he thinks a lot aboutshoulders and surfing.
And so he's been, he's been botha great source of advice, but
(46:30):
also, uh, also, um, you know,treatment and when they needed
it.
And, um, but actually it's sointeresting you bring that up.
I'm looking for, um, really goodcoaching.
Now, I've had some good, um, Ican't even remember their names.
(46:54):
I had some, two years ago, I hadsome people help me with some
really good work on shoulders.
But honestly, I think it waspretty generic.
I just needed somebody to giveme some well known stuff so I
know I was going to be reportingback into them.
But I wish like hell I had sortof discovered coaching a long
(47:17):
time ago because I've beendoing, you know, that Cirque
athlete guide you run into himon online.
What's the name again?
I can't even remember his name.
He has a program.
Oh, Cirque Mastery.
No, Cirque athlete.
Um, okay.
There's probably a lot of guys,but the.
I realized, for example, is thisthe guy who's based out in
(47:39):
Moray?
No, I went to that guy who doespaddling coaching.
Oh, yeah.
I did you hear about him fromJosh Weezy?
Because I heard about it fromJosh Weezy.
Yeah, and I went to see him andhe was wonderful.
And what I learned, I mean, Ilearned two things that made a
(48:01):
huge difference.
I learned that I'd been reachingtoo far, basically pushing water
down instead of pushing myselfforward.
And you hear that and you'relike, well, I've been an idiot.
And then I was, I was probably.
At least on some of my boardssitting too far back and pushing
water forward as I pound andwhen he got me, he got me, uh,
(48:25):
got my way forward into theboard to point.
It felt like, wow, this is toofar.
But in fact.
He kind of showed me that, wow,this board's a lot flatter.
And he also said, showed me howto, you know, I needed to keep
my head down because thatbrought the front of the board
up and I was pushing wateragain.
And I realized that probablysome of my shoulder arthritis
(48:49):
has had to do with that dumbthing of Reaching way forward,
thinking you're cranking, butsome of your stroke is just
pushing down and think of whatthat does, what kind of pressure
that puts on your shoulder for,well, I, you know, 3000 strokes
in a huge session.
So I just, and, and then, andthen I realized, okay, my, my
(49:13):
takeoff is, is sort ofdeteriorating and it never was,
it's always been the sketchiestpart of my circuit.
And you just learned to take offback in the day by kind of
watching some people and youwould hop up on the beach some,
and then you would try it.
And so then I found this, thissurf athlete guy.
(49:34):
I wish I could remember his namebecause I should give him
credit.
Um, and he has this programcalled the perfect pop up and he
gives you all of these mobilitythings to do and exercise
things, but he's mostly teachingyou the motion and probably some
people, some surfers have seenthat video from Slater's surf
ranch, where he does slo mo andall these pros take off.
(49:57):
I have seen that video.
I've, I have, I didn't know thatthat was that, uh, individual,
but yes, I have seen thatparticular video.
I worship that video.
And, um.
And it was hilarious, this guy,okay, here's how, here's the
dumb way to do many people atthis pop ups and it was as if
somebody videoed me and then Isaw that the, you know, and sort
(50:23):
of two step, but first way,elegant way to pop up and I'm
trying to learn, I'm trying tolearn the pop up all over again,
like tear it down to thebearings and rebuild it and
it's, It's super fun, but it'sshocking after all this time,
how hard it is to something I'mgetting good at in my living
(50:46):
room to 200 yards that way.
And Kevin, just so peopleunderstand, you know, um, so by
the way, uh, the pop up is alsomy weakest link.
And I've only been at it forlike a decade and you've been
doing this for several decadesnow, surfing that is.
(51:08):
And I think the point I want to,I want to come across is that
it's never too late.
to re examine what might be apermanent habit, what might be
something that we think is sheerproofed, and find an opportunity
to deconstruct and to improveit.
(51:32):
So without geeking out on thistoo much, Man, you and I need to
get together after this and talkabout pop ups and talk about
shoulder arthritis because youhave a kindred spirit in me.
I would love to learn, love tolearn what you've been doing and
I can share whatever couple ofthings that, uh, that, uh, that
I've been doing.
(51:52):
Um, uh, one thing, yeah, onething that I wanted to kind of
look at is, you know, taking,uh, taking another step is, um,
Habits, right?
Um, you spoke about some ofthese habits you have about
being diligent with your rehaband looking at any, any other,
let's say beliefs or behaviorsin the last decade, you think
(52:16):
has had the most profound impacton, uh, you?
Um, yeah, some we should have ina private conversation, but, um.
(52:39):
I think one of the main thingsis just taking sleep yet again
more seriously, and I'm not anawesome sleeper by nature, and
then there's jet lag, and I'vegotten really disciplined about
my jet lag routine.
And I have, uh, I have, um,gotten more disciplined, uh, you
(53:05):
know, that thing of sleep on theside of midnight is often more
valuable and just taking serioussleep more seriously and making
sure I have an eight, eight,eight hour cargo carving out for
that.
I think it seemed to feel bestwith about seven and a half, and
then I have to carve out eightif I want to hit it and some
(53:26):
nights I still can't sleep.
Occasionally, and it's a work inprogress and I do have a routine
around it and I don't look at,don't look at devices, you know,
uh, for at least the last halfhour before I go to bed, if not,
not better on and, uh, you know,cold, cool and quiet and
(53:51):
comfortable.
And zero light, because againand again, the research shows
that any little bit of lightdecreases the quality.
So I've been taking sleep stuffreally seriously.
Super cool.
Um, I'm probably, yeah, I can'tstand trying to do My life does
(54:12):
not make eating any certain waysuper difficult.
And, um, again, I'm lazy.
Don't, don't want to spend abunch of time preparing food.
And, um, you know, I don'talways order in the restaurant.
I order what's tasty.
And so, yeah, I mean, I feellike, I feel like I could, I,
(54:35):
there's a lot I could do aboutdiet that I haven't.
I was actually going to ask youabout that, uh, Kevin, um, any,
any, um, any food routines, uh,any, I know you travel a lot, so
I'm sure to, to some degree it'shard for you to manage your
diet, but other than that, likeyou, you take any supplements?
(54:58):
Are you, you avoid certainfoods?
I do.
So I seem to always be trying toheal something.
I take magnesium and vitamin D.
Um, and again, you know, I'vebeen looking at, at, uh.
Paul Metformin, and Resveratrol,and NMN, some of these things
(55:23):
would have some good data behindthem in terms of the longevity
research, and I'm, you know,part of me gets discouraged,
like, oh God, I'd be carding allthat stuff all over the world.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'mgonna go ahead with that.
I'm gonna give God a go, becausethere's good data behind it.
(55:44):
The guy who wrote Lifespan, he'sgot his name, David Sinclair
maybe?
I don't know.
David, yeah, he's a serious, youknow, he's a serious scientist
and kind of, why not?
I don't want to regret it laterand you know, one of the things
he says, it's never too late tostart.
Um, I've got.
(56:05):
You know, I've got these twostepdaughters that are, are
super close to and they're,they're taking up climbing and
surfing respectively, and I'dlike to be doing this stuff with
them as long as I can.
And, you know, my stepdaughterand her boyfriend are getting
better at climbing really fast.
So have a couple of rope guns inthe family pretty soon.
(56:28):
We love going together.
So whatever I can do to keepdoing that, so I might even stop
eating ice cream and cheese if Ihave to.
That would be, uh, the ultimatesacrifice, uh, but for a good
cause, but the, you know, theother thing is, um, just staying
(56:48):
happy and two of the things thatreally helped you stay happy or
meaningful work andrelationships.
And I put, I've always put a lotinto work that luckily for me is
super meaningful.
Um, and I've always had good.
Good relationships, but I'mactually putting that much more
(57:10):
effort into them, not in somekind of mechanical way to get it
happier, but just, you justrealize they're important in all
kinds of levels.
And that's been a little bit ofa tough one, climbing, because
maybe there's some listeners.
I love Baupin climbing most, andI love long routes in the Sierra
(57:32):
most.
And I'm super picky about, um,who I go with, you know,
obviously you got to be safeand, you know, if they're better
than me, you can do harderroutes.
If I'm better, we can dowhatever routes I can do.
But mostly I want to, I want tobe, uh, Have a better friend
(57:56):
when we get back.
Yeah, I know, Kevin, you know,you're, you're preaching to the
choir, like, as I get old, Ialso get a little prickly about,
uh, people I climb with,especially again, when it comes
to doing longer trips to, uh, tomore involved climbs, because as
(58:19):
I shared with somebody the otherday, you know, when I was,
Getting into climbing, thestroke of just being able to do
routes I love was enough for meto tolerate really anybody on
the other end of the rope.
But now when I go climbing, likeI want the whole thing to be a
rich experience, the planning,the anticipations, the co
(58:40):
planning, the drive to the crag,the shared meal after, and of
course the actual climbing, likeI want the whole thing to be an
amazing experience.
And if, if I think I'm not goingto get, uh, that to some degree,
I would almost not wanna go onthat climbing trip because, you
(59:04):
know, time is precious.
And I think, I think My richestfriendships have come from the
world of climbing and, uh, andyeah, I think, uh, people in my
world, like people such asyourself, uh, and others, uh, I
think are inspirations and Iwould only want to deepen those
(59:24):
further and, and take those, uh,take those ahead.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I, you know, the last I'mhoping to find some good
partners, you know, I have mylongtime partner.
Michael Reaser and we've climbedPeru and the Alps a lot and
Sierra and you know he's, he'sjust had a baby or his wife had
(59:47):
a baby and he's getting intoparagliding which is a really
smart thing to do here in thisneighborhood because you can Do
it when we're surfing is shitty.
And, um, and, uh, he's a busyguy too, but I, I, I am looking
actively looking for.
(01:00:08):
Alpine partners that want to dolong moderates and just love the
whole mountain experiencebecause, um, and I've really
enjoyed this, but the lastdecade has been mostly climbing
long stuff myself, you know, theNorth Ridge of K'ness, the West
Ridge of K'ness, East Glide ofWhitney, the North Ridge of Lone
(01:00:28):
Pine Peak.
Um, and kind of tired of that,for sure, for sure.
Um, Kevin, um, here's a, here'sa, uh, uh, you know, you've had
all these great friendships overthe years.
(01:00:49):
What might be, what might begreat gift?
That you have given somebody in,in that, in that, um, in that
realm, any realm, any realm.
(01:01:13):
Well, I mean, I probably, youknow, the most rewarding
experiences from that regard ofgiving have been with these, the
most wonderful people on earth,these people who founded
organizations that are going tohave tremendous impact in the
world.
And there's a lot of them thatI've had.
Mentoring relationships thatwent well beyond my sort of job
(01:01:37):
description and it'sunbelievably satisfying because
they're in it and it's like mostthings that I do it's, it's
pretty selfish and that it's,it's its own reward, but I think
that I think that I've given alot of them have told me later
about support I gave them whenperhaps.
Others weren't.
(01:01:57):
And, and they needed somebody tohave shape to them for sure.
Um, and I think I never pushedmy stepdaughters to do these
things, but I see them, I know,I know I played a role in them,
taking them up and like so many,I see all the positive effects
it has in their lives.
(01:02:19):
Beautiful I, I also see I alsosee the career that the youngest
one is gonna take, and I give itthumbs up.
Nice.
Nice.
What about, uh, maybe thecorollary, which is maybe what's
a great gift that you havereceived that, uh, has made an
(01:02:44):
impact on you?
Well, uh, you know, Mark Minikerbecame my, was, was set up to be
my mentor in medicine.
Um, and that ended up, you know,we hit it off.
And so I ended up bailing onmedicine.
(01:03:07):
medical school, which I, Ibasically I couldn't stand, I
couldn't sit through stuff, andjust going to his clinic and
kind of learning by, in aclosely supervised way of doing.
And, you know, he didn't have toteach me how to surf big waves.
That was a real, that was a,that was a huge gift.
(01:03:28):
And, um, and, um, andinterestingly, Mark is an
inveterate explorer.
And as soon as well suits got,got better and better, he
started exploring really coldwater places.
And I love exploring and I don'tmind coal.
And, um, you know, we've endedup, he and a married band of
(01:03:51):
others have ended up, you know,going around Iceland and going
to Antarctica and going all overthe Aleutians and the Alaskan
panhandle.
Um.
That was a gift because I wentto a bunch of places I never
would have gone otherwise.
And so many people have taughtme stuff that, you know, taking
the time to teach me stuff inthe mountains and, and the
(01:04:13):
water.
Um, and I've had someastonishing mentors in my, in
my, um, early work life.
So I've got a lot and I hopeI've, I hope I've given a
fraction as much.
I love that answer.
(01:04:35):
Yeah, it's the gifts that, thatyou have received and the gifts
that you've given, you know,those are not one time.
And those have been both thegift and the recipients have
been carefully selected andcurated, which means that those
(01:04:55):
could not have been given tojust anybody.
Kevin, what is, um, you know,you've had a world of
experiences with your travels,with the work that you do.
Can you think of perhaps afailure, but a failure that has
(01:05:16):
taught you much?
I would say, um, there's notsome big resounding single
failure, but there's just beenthis low level.
Non acute sense of failure andmost sense that I've just never
(01:05:37):
gotten good at either one ofthese things I love as I would
like to and But it's a kind offailure that isn't it's not so
terrible because for me it'saccompanied by the Probably
complete delusion that you knowwhat this next year.
I'll be a little better You knowbecause like this like like um
(01:06:05):
And, and I do see that as tofailure.
Like, um, you know, there's somesong by the presidents, a band
from years ago.
And it's like, we're not, thesong's called, we're not going
to make it.
And the lyrics are, cause wedon't have the talent and we
didn't put in the time.
And it, it kind of is that,right?
(01:06:26):
I don't, I'm not particularlytalented as a climber or surfer.
My, my climbing, my best talentis to absorb pain.
And that's probably my besttalent as a surfer, but I'm not
particularly, I'm notparticularly good at either one.
And I, I know enough now that toknow ways in which I could have
(01:06:48):
made some different decisions.
I could have got, I could havelooked for and gotten coaching
help.
I could have worked out harder.
Um, and.
You know, uh, I could have hungout less on, on some climbing
trips and climbed more, but, butthen that's balanced off by
(01:07:13):
this, this weird, weird, veryconstructive delusion I have
that I think this year is goingto be better.
In fact, if I get my top up, ifI could buy takeoff Doug and I
could have the best year ever,maybe I'll actually work on my
finger strength this year.
And if I did that and my fingersgot a lot stronger, maybe I
(01:07:37):
could climb as well as or betterthan I've ever climbed.
And that, that, um, I see thatas a real positive.
Because, you know, again, what,uh, Last year, last year, last
year, I felt like I was gettingthere.
And in January, we're justgetting this amazing run of
Ocean Beach Surge.
And I was starting to make everyone and, and then I, my board
(01:08:04):
and I went on a big, big,powerful day, my board and I
went in opposite directions andI was wearing one of those thick
reashes that doesn't break andit pulled just wrong and it tore
my medial collateral ligamentand my ENOC was January 10 was
the last day I, I surfed until alittle while ago and okay, so
(01:08:26):
this year will be the best yearever.
Um.
And you might as well, Kevin.
Hey, um, what you, you know, uh,you call it being delusional.
I think the rest of the worldcalls it, um, optimism.
(01:08:46):
And, uh, I think I'm an internaloptimist like yourselves.
Uh, even though, yes.
I think I'm actually moredelusional than, than I, I
really should, uh, should goback and think about that.
Uh, but no, I think that's,that's completely true.
I mean, Hey, even if we don'tsucceed in everything we set out
to do, I think just having goalsis, uh, it's 50%, you know, um,
(01:09:11):
of the whole thing, um, talkingof talking of.
Talking of getting better in thefuture and, uh, talking of, uh,
having some of these hopes anddreams.
Here's, here's, uh, anotherquestion for you.
Do you like your future or yourpast more?
(01:09:33):
Um, future.
Okay.
I mean, there's much that I lovein my past and there's periods
of my past I wish I could dodifferently, but I mean, I feel
consistently like in my work,I'm seeing some of my med school
classes.
Uh, classmates are retiring andI feel like I'm just hitting the
(01:09:55):
stride.
And so, yeah, I'm, I'm, um, Igotta say aging is out my mind a
lot because not because I can'tremain like, uh, delusional in
this constructive way, but morethat I just know there's, there
(01:10:18):
is a certain amount of time thatis my future.
And.
I'm going to have to accept somestuff coming forward and I want
to do so gracefully, but, um,God, the possibilities are still
really bright and, and I mightserve better tomorrow than I did
(01:10:39):
yesterday.
And, uh, why not?
Why not give it a go?
I love that.
Um, Kevin, we're nearing the endof our time here.
And I know that there is stillsome time for a sunset surf.
So I, I just want to ask yousome quick, uh, fun, rapid fire
(01:11:00):
type of questions, and then wecan call it, uh, call it an
evening.
What is a favorite meal that youcould eat the rest of your life?
Some form of Japanese, you know,uh, just pretty basic miso and
(01:11:21):
sushi and sashimi and, and, uh,I did dashi and I could.
I, I, I am a person who couldprobably eat the same thing
every night.
Fair.
You know, I, I turned, uh, uh,vegetarian a few years ago.
I think my, uh, my biggestweakness remains, uh, good
(01:11:41):
Japanese food, particularly goodsushi.
What is a, what, I don't know ifyou want to watch movies, but if
you, if you do, what's afavorite movie that you could
see again and again?
Um, the movie, uh, my favoritemovie probably of all time is
(01:12:02):
Fargo.
The Coen brothers.
I just love the Coen brothers.
And I love, you know, it's,it's, it's always a little bit
over the top and it'sexaggerated, but as a picture of
human foibles and human nature.
Um, I just love, I love thoseguys, and I love that particular
(01:12:25):
one.
With more thought I might comeup with something different, but
it's always the thing that popsto mind.
That's a really good one.
What's a, what's a music show?
I don't know, again, if you goto concerts, but is there a
particular concert that you wentto that, uh, you will always,
(01:12:51):
uh, remember?
Um, I go to a lot of jazz and,uh, and I love SF Jazz Center,
um, just cause how hard they're,they're working to keep jazz
alive and cause the acousticsare perfect.
And I went there once to hearStanley Clark, this legendary
(01:13:12):
bass, he's older than me.
And he just had this, thisdrummer, Mike Mitchell with him.
And I remember he was Onkeyboards, but it was just like
watching the sky past the torchis both the drummer and the
piano player.
This guy, Mike Mitchell ondrums.
He's like the future.
(01:13:32):
And so you are watching thisbeautifully disgraceful kind of
Passing in the torch of one ofthe, the original people who
took jazz bass electric and the,the utter future of, of jazz and
this intentional, um, handoverand I just, it sticks in my head
(01:13:59):
more than any music experienceI've had in years.
Sounds like a, yeah, sounds likea beautiful experience and just
the last question before we callit, uh, if you were to meet, uh,
the, uh, 30 year old, uh, KevinStarr, would you tell that
person to do somethingdifferently?
(01:14:27):
Uh, yeah, I tell myself to do abunch of things differently.
Um, one thing is I would say tomyself, uh, Date anybody longer
than six months until, and ifyou don't feel like you want to
marry him.
(01:14:50):
Um, I tell myself to take thething that I really love and
find a good coach for each ofthem.
Um, and I would remind myselfnot to hang out with anybody who
did not consistently, not allthe time, but consistently leave
(01:15:12):
me feeling better at goodbyethan I did as hello.
That's a, uh, that's a really,uh, poignant one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that, that's, that's verythoughtful.
Any, uh, final words, Kevin,before we, uh, before we part?
(01:15:36):
Well, I think I've made thispoint enough, but, um, You know,
why not be optimistic anddelusional, if it helps?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I might actually have tochristen this show, this
particular episode, the, the,the optimistic and the
delusional, um, FTW.
(01:16:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Kevin, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
And I know the, uh, The oceanbeach, uh, just the surf scene
is just beginning and I'm justgetting back to it.
And, uh, when the beaches, uh,is, uh, it's still not massive.
Uh, yeah, I would love to, uh,paddle out with you.
(01:16:22):
Oh, absolutely.
Thanks so much.
This is super fun.
You're doing a good thing here.
Thanks a lot.
Goodbye.
Wow.
What a great conversation.
Many things stood out to me.
Balance in our lives is perhapsa myth.
(01:16:45):
There are only choices.
Kevin manages to deftly weave inathletic pursuits during his
world travels to far flungcorners of the globe.
He shared some great tips onbeing flexible with a choice of
exercise as well as listening toboth one's body and the mind
(01:17:08):
when healing from injuries.
Kevin's zeal to pursue a life ofpurpose while also pushing that
reach of human exploration isinfectious.
Finally, words that stuck out tome were To spend time with
people who consistently make usfeel better at a goodbye than
(01:17:35):
they do at hello.
Funny, huh?
Offline, Kevin wanted me toextend gratitude to his wife,
who is happily supportive of hissports, as well as Halifetico,
his 82 year old body worker whohas helped him tremendously.
(01:17:59):
Thanks for tuning in friends.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, like, and share with
others.
And don't forget to leave areview rating.
Until next time, stay ageless.
Friends, welcome back.
Welcome back to the AgelessAthlete Podcast, where we tap
into secrets and stories of agedefying, high performing
athletes.
Today on the show, I have therare privilege of meeting with
Dr.
Kevin Starr, accomplished rockclimber, big wave surfer, and
(00:33):
social enterprise CEO.
Growing up in San Diego, Kevinfell in love with both the
mountains and the ocean.
Started hiking and climbingaround California and went on to
accomplish daring alpine ascentsin the Himalayas, Peru and
(00:53):
beyond.
Moving to San Francisco.
Kevin found a good mentor andalso started learning how to
tackle big waves in SanFrancisco and around.
Along the way he left aperfectly good medical career to
grow the Mulago Foundationhelping social entrepreneurs
(01:15):
globally designed for impact atscale.
I can't wait to uncover howKevin juggles a career as the
CEO of Mulago, along withcontinuing to excel in the
outdoors, while keeping his mindand body in great shape.
(01:41):
Kevin, hey, um, how's it goingthis, uh, this Friday, uh, foggy
afternoon?
Well, it seems like it's a LaNina year and the fog is in here
at the beach and, um, We alwayshoped that by mid September
we're done with it, but might aswell, might as well love it.
(02:04):
Yeah, yeah, well, uh, at leasttoday it doesn't seem to be.
I think it's a bit overcast, uh,at Ocean Beach, but, uh, but I
think by now the fog has, hasmostly burnt off, and I think
it's somewhat for teachers thatwe had in this conversation,
and, uh, the surf season isunderway.
And, uh, for those of us who arenot watching this, uh, watching
(02:27):
the video, there is thisbeautiful, uh, frame art of, uh,
this, uh, this big wave, uh,breaking in your, uh,
background, if I may ask whereis this piece of art from?
It's, um, it's the YMASShorebreak.
Ah.
You can see how shallow it is atthe base of the picture.
Sure, sure.
(02:49):
Um.
And, uh, did you get it rightfrom the artist and in Hawaii?
No, no, I got it from Ikea.
That's a dirty secret that Ithink I just told a bunch of
people.
But it's like it costs a ton toget a picture blown up like
(03:12):
this, but I would blow up apicture like this.
And I'm literally getting, youknow, silverware some shit in
And I see this from way acrossthe room.
So it's been up there forever.
That's funny.
And I bet, I don't know how manylaughs you've had, uh, sharing
this, uh, you know, sharing yourbetter secret with, uh, other
(03:36):
admirers.
Yeah, Well, that's, I'm only,only, I'm only sharing with you
'cause I'm trying to get some,some, uh.
Candor cred here.
Okay, right.
So far, you know, Two minutesinto the conversation.
Yes.
Uh, the candor, uh, points arecoming your way, but hey, uh,
(03:57):
Kevin, great to be connected.
Uh, it's certainly been severalyears.
Met at the gym last and I thinkwe also met once at ocean beach,
which I think about the sametime.
I think it was a weekend morningand it was one of those days
where the waves were not verybig, but I was, uh, I think I
was struggling to get out.
(04:19):
And I think you and others werelike, I think you would either
finish the surf or, um, or we'recoming back, uh, or maybe we'll,
we're going out at that time.
Are you still, uh, writing herout, uh, at surf and ocean beach
or, uh, do you.
Gravity to other places.
No, I'm a regular when I'm noton the beach with an injury.
(04:44):
Okay.
Fair.
And I think a lot of us can, uh,can probably, uh, share some of
those sentiments.
Um, Hey, just taking a quickstep back, Kevin, would you mind
sharing a little bit about whatyou do and, uh, the different
dimensions you are involved in?
Yeah, I mean, most of my energythese days goes into my work at
(05:09):
a foundation called Milago, andI'm the CEO, and what we do is
we try to find people withsolutions to poverty that we
think could go really big, andthen we teach them about design
and strategy, And then we fundthem and advise them over years.
(05:31):
And as long as we see thatthey're making big, serious
progress toward exponentialscale, like kids lives saved or
kids literate or farmers makingmore money or whatever it might
be.
We're mostly in Sub SaharanAfrica and the poor parts of
Asia, but I've got about 12people on the team.
(05:56):
We spend about 25 million ayear, and we work with a lot of
funders who follow ourportfolio.
So, all in all, we're helpingmove a lot of money now.
That's, uh, that's incredible,Kevin.
And I know you've been doingthis for some time now, but that
was, I believe, not your, uh,original calling.
(06:20):
So, uh, would you mind justsharing very quickly, uh, how
did you end up in this space?
Well, when I was in med schoolat UCSF, I, um, started a
project in the Peruvian Andes.
I'd been, I'd spent two seasonsclimbing in the Cordillera
Blanca and Cordillera Huayhuash.
(06:41):
And, um, I started a, uh,project to train local health
workers, community healthworkers in Peru by bringing a
group of doctors and medicalstudents down and going on tours
through the mountain range tovisit their towns and, and teach
and learn.
And, um, I had a mentor namedReiner Arnhold, who was a very
(07:05):
accomplished pediatrician who'dworked all over the world, and
he was in his late 60s, and by1993, because of the Peruvian
Civil War, we'd moved theproject to Bolivia, the Bolivian
amputees, and Reiner suddenly,on one of the hikes, dropped
dead.
He had a massive stroke, and inthe aftermath of that, I get to
(07:27):
know his family, And they'd beenin banking for generations, and
it turned out my friend Reiner,who was kind of a dirtbag like
the rest of us, um, had 50million.
And his family said, let's starta foundation and Kevin, you
know, his work, well, would youhelp?
(07:49):
And then long story short, itjust got more and more
interesting and took over moreand more of my life, um, to the
point where, you know, I justkind of tapered down, down, down
with medicine and up, up, upwith that.
And, um, I think my last patientI really saw formally was 9
years ago.
(08:10):
That's quite a story, uh, Kevinand, uh.
One is, uh, I guess obviously inhindsight, uh, uh, Reinhold's
family picked probably the rightperson.
Unlikely.
Uh, I mean, uh, Maybe you didnot fit the resume of somebody
(08:30):
who would do that, but it lookslike they fit the perfect person
to carry his work forward.
And then the second thing isthat, uh, is something I wanted
to come to later in thisconversation is, uh, is kind of,
uh, Finding that common threadbetween the outdoors and the
work you do.
So I think you just, uh, youjust kind of shared the genesis
(08:52):
of that.
Um, where can people go to learnmore about the Mulago foundation
and the work that you do?
Um, we built a website that Ithink does a pretty good job of
communicating what we do and whowe do it with.
And it's just MulagoFoundation.
(09:13):
org, Mulago spelled N U L A G O.
And, um, people have anycritique, I'd love to hear it.
That's right.
Perfect.
People are ready to go now.
Now, uh, coming, uh, coming to alittle bit of, uh, sort of your,
uh, story with, uh, theoutdoors.
(09:34):
Uh, one is, I would love to heara little bit about, uh, the
outdoor, uh, activities that youhave, uh, been, uh, engaged in
over the last, uh, few decades.
I know you from the lens ofclimbing and, uh, surfing.
So we'd love to hear a littlebit about both of those
(09:54):
activities, uh, how you gotstarted with them.
And then also maybe some ofyour, uh, making a long question
even longer, maybe some of your,uh, prouder moments with both.
Wow.
Well, one, I'll, I'll just talkabout getting started and then
you can repeat the proudest andonly question if you want.
(10:17):
Sure.
Um, I've, oh, I grew up in SanDiego and I've always loved the
mountains and the ocean.
And I think I was never able tochoose between them.
So I ended up finding some wayto experience both.
And, um, my dad took me up.
I first typed up Mount Whitneywhen I was 11.
(10:41):
And my dad would take, he wasn'ta client or anything, but he
would take me to what back then,you know, people would get
slideshows and you'd go watch,you know, what's his name,
Whitaker.
Um, give a slideshow on climbingEverest.
And I went to the one that was,I can't even remember who it
(11:02):
was.
Um, but it was about Taiji Peakin the Karakoram and I was like
15 or something.
And I thought there's nothingthat would be better than doing
that.
And then light took over and Ididn't.
(11:22):
I didn't really, I learned,started learning to rock climb
at college at UC San Francisco.
And I had a really good Yosemiteclimber named Jim Elias kind of
took me under his wing.
And, uh, by the end of college,I was kind of competent.
(11:42):
And then I, during med school,we used to go, we used to go up
to the weekend and we'd study inthe, in the, um.
At night until they kicked usout and then go climb as long as
we could get away within theday.
Um, and then after residency, Istarted doing right before med
(12:04):
school.
Um, it was funny, I broke myankle really badly on a, on a
fist cracked called fist tocuffs.
And, and Joshua Trippe.
It's like this 10 B, 10 C, um,overhanging fist crack, and I
shattered my talus, or actuallyjust broke it, like it was
(12:27):
twisted and broken.
Ouch.
And, and then, um, so I had thisbig surgery, and then this long
recovery, and then they told me,you know, don't do anything that
hurts.
Well, everything hurts.
And so I was doing less and lessand less and getting more and
more depressed.
(12:47):
And then I met this orthopod whosaid, no, no, no, no, no.
Don't, it will stop you when ithurts.
Just do it as much as you want.
Do as much as you want.
And that was like getting out ofjail.
And that summer I first went toPeru and we climbed Pan.
And I must have hiked a hundredmiles with backpacks on.
(13:11):
And I actually, my ankle startedto hurt less and when they did
the surgery, they said, we'regoing to have to fuse this, this
joint, this talus joint orsubtalar joint, um, by your time
you're 40 and I'm 63.
And it's just going, it's alittle stiff sometimes, but it
works just fine.
(13:32):
I can't dorsiflex by as much asI would like to, which, which
has, uh, relevance aroundsurfing, but it's not, it's,
it's not disabling.
Did that, uh, I guess, uh, uh,Dallas.
stiffness also hinder you fromgoing back to that same crack in
(13:55):
Yasha tree.
And, uh, finally, I guesscompleting it, uh, because you
have to, you know, use your feetto jam those cracks often.
And I know from experience, uh,when you're twisting your, you
know, crack labbing forces usinto these, like really, uh,
let's call them orthopedicNightmarish, uh, body positions
(14:20):
where you're twisting andpulling yourself in contorted
ways.
No, it doesn't really seem tomatter.
My wife and I were in, we're inJoshua tree last winter.
And just for fun, we did alittle pilgrimage to fisticuffs.
I thought, Hey, no, that's thething.
(14:41):
Um, and, and no, it kind ofspeaks to like, I don't want, I
love long.
A lot of long routes in themountains, that's what I love to
do.
And, um, I want to, you know,use sport climbing and, and
short one pitch climbs and thatsort of thing to try to get
better.
But I sure as hell don't want toget hurt doing that.
(15:04):
So I'm going to treat thatreally gently and, you know,
maybe fisticuffs would be worthdoing now, but I don't know,
just seems to have bad juju.
If I want to prove something, Idon't want to prove that I don't
need to prove.
Got it.
Got it.
Yeah.
One has to, uh, one has to beselective about one's, uh, one's
battles.
(15:24):
Um, in what you just said, Ipicked up a few different things
about your climbing history.
You spoke off being inspired by,let's say climbs in the
Himalayas.
I heard about Mount Everest.
I heard about the Karakorams.
I heard about obviously some ofyour, uh.
You know, some of, some of thecracks closer to you, Joshua
(15:45):
tree.
And then I also heard aboutYosemite.
So over, over the decades, uh,I, uh, having, having climbed,
I'm guessing in, in those placesand more, any particular moments
stand out, uh, uh, that you, youeither very proud of, or they,
uh, they, they make for, uh,just achievements that you will,
(16:08):
uh, always take with you.
Well, um, the high point of mymountain career was, I guess,
uh, was, was Triangle Tower backin 94, and, um, I went with, uh,
(16:29):
Willie Benegas and, um, EricBrand to try a new route on, try
the first route on the NorthFace.
And, um, it ended up taking, uh,18 days to get up and three days
(16:52):
to get down.
So it was 21 days on the walland it was a, it was a, just an
utterly extraordinaryexperience.
And I wouldn't do it again.
Amazing.
It was just so much work and Ilike, I think if I like one
thing best of all, it's fast andlight alpine climbing.
(17:14):
Um, and this was anything butjust right.
It was an extraordinaryexperience just being, it was
like being in space for threeweeks.
And we finally got up thismorning and, um, and still
getting off anything that big isstill itself an epic.
(17:37):
Isn't Triangle Tower like, uh,the biggest big wall in the
world even now?
No, I think Great Triangle is.
Okay.
Great triangle.
Great triangle is unimaginablybroad and high.
I, it's, it's triangle tower.
(17:58):
I mean, I tell people thattriangle tower is a ZFL cap sat
on top of the Mont Blanc.
Because you have to do a Alpinesort of snow and ice climb,
mostly snow, some rock to get upto the base and then.
And then you got a car and a bigwall.
(18:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I'm guessing this was doneexpedition style.
Like, uh, you said over threeweeks.
So were you taking a big team?
Well, it was, no, it was capsulestyle.
So once you left the ground, youdidn't come back down.
And so you had like 800 feet ofrope, a thousand feet of rope.
And you would run that up as faras you can coming up and down
(18:44):
every day.
And then you'd move the camp up.
And we only had to, we only hadto do two camps if I remember
right.
Cause you could only camp whereyou had some snow and there
ain't much snow on that place.
Sure, sure.
Yeah, it's so steep.
Yeah, that wall, this on thetiny bit, I know about it.
(19:04):
It's relentlessly steep, whichmeans that, you know, you are,
uh, it's overhanging.
It's actually overhanging.
It's kind of amazing.
Or ice will come up the top andit would be like watching a
helicopter about to crash, youknow, 50, a hundred feet out in
the air on its way down.
That's incredible.
(19:25):
Any other things that you, uh,care to, uh, share about climbs
closer to home?
Well, um, another, you know,Willie and I met up in, in the
valley some years later, andWillie Banegas is in his way, I
(19:45):
think, one of the best climbersin the world.
And, um, we just hadn't seeneach other for a while, we'd
just spent three days climbing,and, you know, Because Willie
was pushing me.
It's like, we just did this warmup one day on the East Batra Sub
Metal and then the next day wedid the East Batra Sub Metal
Cap, and the next day we did,uh, Half Dome, Bardikar in 14
(20:12):
hours.
And that was, that was a highpoint.
I never approached anything likeit since.
Wow, it sounds like a heck of along weekend.
Three every year and all likekind of leading up to the other.
I mean, yeah, but by today'sstandards, it was like baby
(20:35):
steps.
But for me back then with a goodfriend, it was wonderful.
Yeah, I know.
I, I not quite, uh, not quitethe same clients, but I remember
one weekend where I had, uh,another really strong, uh,
friend visiting me from Germany.
And, uh, I think over threedays, I think we did, I think we
(20:59):
did.
Um, I know we did the rostrum onthe second day and I think we
did something easier on thethird day.
No, Royal arches one day,rostrum second day.
Uh, and then I think a hard dayof cragging the third day.
And the fourth day he wanted todo, go and do Astroman and I
(21:22):
basically folded my hand andsaid, no, I can't, this body is
not going to listen to me in a,in a smaller way.
I can empathize.
In retrospect, I am sort of ina, in a small way proud of those
few days of like being able tokeep up with like a young
whippersnapper and um, and thenalso, yeah, I think it was, it
(21:42):
was fun to kind of.
Push myself to, uh, as you know,as, as a weekend cragger and as
somebody who's not, uh, who'snot really, uh, you know, a
track time or really, uh, topush myself.
It's one thing you said, whichwas kind of interesting, Kevin,
you said, you know, that youwant to use, you know, I guess,
uh, yeah, shorter class to trainyourself for, for like bigger,
(22:04):
uh, let's say just bigger onscale adventures outside because
you don't want to get hurt.
Right.
And it's interesting how I havethe other perspective, which is,
uh, uh, I am, I guess, currentlymore focused from a background
is more like short, but thanksfor climbing and some
bouldering.
And for me, I am, I've scaledback a bit on like Alpine and
(22:28):
Chad, uh, climbing because Idon't want to get hurt doing
those things.
Keep me from thing.
Doing like more, let's say, um,doing other things with
climbing.
So it's, it's interesting how weboth come from like these, uh,
opposite, uh, I, uh, Alpineclimbing is probably more likely
(22:50):
to kill you and maybe lesslikely to hurt.
Fair, fair.
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
And, uh, that's right.
You know, it's, it's going to belike one hell of a, one hell of
a way to go.
Um, um, so just switching gearsa little bit.
You also surf, and I knowyou've, uh, been doing that for
(23:12):
a while, did that story beginwith your, uh, with your, uh,
childhood in San Diego?
Is that where you learned tosurf?
And, uh, has that kind of, uh,Yeah, well, you know, Southern
California is about cars and Ilived inland and I didn't have a
car till I was 17.
(23:33):
So I couldn't really get to thebeach.
Um, you know, as much as onecould to really get, get into
and get at surfing.
And so then when I had a car, Istarted going up to like Big
Rock and La Jolla.
And that was a really cool waythat it was a new boarding
(23:53):
scene.
Steve Liss and all those guys,you know, very influenced by By
George Green on and, um, and soI started me boring, you know,
cause that's just a tight littlebarely wave and the boardings
seem like the learning curve wasshorter and naturally the
impatient, lazy.
(24:15):
So, I started me boarding, whichis the biggest.
I'm lucky that that's thebiggest single regret of my
life.
Uh, because then I went up to UCSanta Cruz College and I kept
kneeboarding.
I had a really, so much fun onthe, on the North coast, but by
(24:38):
the end of university, I waskind of getting really intrigued
with big waves and you can'tsurf big waves on a knee board.
And, uh, and so I ended up goingto med school at UC San
Francisco, and honestly, Ididn't even know there were good
wives here.
It was just the one use.
I couldn't, I couldn't afford togo anything outside of
(24:59):
California.
I didn't want to, and it was theone that was, I was in, I was in
love with Northern Californiaone time and it was the, the one
med school that was near theocean in Northern California.
So I wanted to go there.
And then, then I had a firstyear, my first year advisor in
(25:20):
medical school was Mark Reneker.
Most people know him as DocReneker.
And so he got me out into OceanBeach and then was kind of my
mentor and trying to learn howto stand up surf and surf big
waves at the same time.
I mean, in retrospect, OceanBeach is a terrible place to
(25:41):
learn how to surf.
I didn't mind the beating.
Don't tell me about it.
Tell me about it.
12 years in and still trying to,uh, master the basics.
Yeah.
I mean, some people called mestupid because I just, I would
go out and days, I probably hadno business going out and I
could stick with it until I gotout.
(26:02):
And weirdly, I got better atwriting bigger waves because you
kind of have more time to getset.
Um, but still, you know, OceanBeach, how many waves do you get
out in a, how many waves do youget in an Ocean Beach section?
You take half an hour to getout, and then some days you seem
(26:22):
to find the rhythm, and you getinto the double digits, but
mostly, no, I should say mostlyI don't.
There are people who I justwatch that are just machines.
Uh, I'm not that, but you justdon't get that many waves at
Ocean Beach compared to, youknow, if you, if you sucked it
(26:42):
up and were surfing in a SantaCruz reef, you just get so many
more waves.
Sure.
No, I think that's, um, um, Ithink that's, that is so true.
Um, even for people who arequite dedicated, I think.
I think it's, it's hard to, hardto predict with any reliability,
(27:03):
how a particular session mightgo on a proper, uh, proper day
in the season because ocean,yeah, ocean beach can be, you
know, very temperamental.
It can be, uh, it can be, youknow, the, sort of the great
decider of how you might do on aparticular day.
(27:23):
And I did not know this, uh,Kevin, that you were part of,
uh, you know, doc's, uh, docRenick's school of, uh,
prodigies, uh, by the way, I amtalking to, uh, I managed to,
uh, get a hold of him.
So I am going to be hopefullyhaving him on this, uh, on the,
(27:43):
on the show later on, uh, theseason.
So I, I look forward to thatcombination because I've never
surfed or met Doc in person, butI was inspired by, uh, the New
Yorker article from, you know,many moons ago.
And it's great to hear that.
Yeah.
You have surfed with, uh, with,uh, with Doc, uh, you know, when
(28:05):
we're learning.
Ocean Beach, and I think youstill continue to surf with him
to the day.
Well, Steve, he is, um, he's notreally inspiring, uh, figure to
the older surfer, because he'seight years older than me, and,
and he can still paddle better.
He'd still get out, I think, ondays, you know, everybody keeps
(28:28):
track of the one or two days inthe season when they just don't
get out.
And I think, I suspect in agiven season, my total is still
higher.
That's amazing.
So yeah, he's just inspiring.
I'm glad you're going to talk tohim.
I think you'll learn a lot moretalking to him than you do to
me.
Different, different things fromdifferent people, uh, given
(28:51):
that, uh, Kevin, given that, youknow, you do, uh, you, you pour
so much energy into your workand, uh, and also into, uh, into
climbing and into surfing.
I mean, these are likeextremely, you know, time taking
activities and, and most peoplewould be proud of just, uh,
succeeding in just one of them.
(29:11):
And you are, you know, you aredoing things with all three of
them.
How are you able to, uh, To keepthem in balance, any things
you've learned over the years,any, any practices you follow to
the day?
Um, I read, I read a, uh, Idon't really read the Harvard
(29:33):
Business Review that much, but Ijust happened to see it sitting
around the office once.
And I read an article and Ididn't really read much past the
title because I felt likesometimes I didn't.
The title was, there is no worklife balance, there's only
choice.
And I, I tell my, my founders,my social entrepreneurs.
(29:55):
I use that all the time becausework life balance is some kind
of abstract thing and choicesare real and so you can say I'm
gonna surf this season and Iknow what it takes to surf ocean
beach um Well enough, which,which means get out and, um, and
(30:22):
it's fickle.
And so you got to have a certainlevel of flexibility and you
make that choice.
That's I'm going to do that.
And I'm also going to have a joband I'm going to work my ass off
at it.
But if you don't make somechoices, I'm going to spend this
time with my family.
I'm going to spend this timesurfing.
(30:43):
If you love your work, yourwork's going to seep down to all
the cracks and, and that'sactually pretty awesome unless
you don't like your work.
But if you want to, if you wantto do these other things, you
have to make a choice to do it.
And so I don't try to balance mylife and work sometimes my life.
(31:03):
My work utterly takes over everyfiber of my being and every
second of my available time.
And then sometimes in surfseason, uh, I don't even want to
admit how little time it'lltake.
Um, same as in the summer.
I want to be in the mountains asmuch as possible in the summer.
(31:25):
Carve that out so that my workisn't suffering.
But I'm gonna do that.
And I'm gonna do it every year,year in and year out.
Oops, I think you might be onmute.
Kevin, yes, uh, amazing.
(31:46):
No, I think those might be wordsto live by, yes.
There isn't, um There isn't, uh,I think balance is maybe only
temporal and, and, you know,choices, uh, matter more.
And I think one smart choicethat I can see you have made is,
uh, is building a home right bythe water.
(32:07):
So you don't have to spend time,uh, you know, admiring the ocean
from a camera or from photos.
You can actually be there.
Um, any other, um, intentional,uh, things you have done in your
life.
Uh, like one thing you mentionedis, uh, maybe, uh, training
your, your team in a certainway.
(32:27):
Maybe you can talk more aboutthat.
Maybe some other choices thatyou have made and also Kevin,
any trade offs there?
Any what?
Any trade offs?
Trade offs, because again, youknow, you're executing, uh, uh,
at a high level across, uh,across disciplines.
(32:47):
Well, you don't, you don't havea, a counterfactual, my
assumptions always been that youtake a career hit from doing
this other stuff.
Um, I know people who I don't, Idon't know have, and, and Mark
Reniker has chosen a way ofdoing medicine that is so
(33:08):
compatible with the surfing thatI think that he has, um, Yeah.
Managed to do both spectacularlywell, have a, have a wife and
surfing and how I've extort doextraordinary work.
Um, I have a more conventional,uh, work day because I have a
(33:31):
team that I want to work with.
And the one choice I, I guessit's a choice is that I'm going
to do that thing.
I'm going to really assiduouslydo that thing of hiring people
that are smarter.
So I get a team that can dostuff.
Um, Maybe as good as I can do orbetter than I can do, and it's
(33:55):
the team that's going to outlastme anyway, so it's in my
interest now and later to buildthat team.
I don't, I mean this thing, thelogo went really slowly.
At the beginning, and now it'sreally taken off, but it went
slowly because, uh, I did ERmedicine when I finished because
(34:22):
I wanted big chunks of time off.
And if you work rural ERs, youcan write your own ticket.
And so I got to spend a lot oftime doing these things as I
started to build Milagro and asI had a medical career and I
could build it really slowly.
And normally if someone came tome as a founder and said, I'm
(34:44):
going to do this thing that'sgoing to change the world, but
I'm going to do it reallyslowly.
I'd say, well, You know, comeback when you're ready to go all
out, but I had the luxury.
I didn't even know what I wasbuilding.
I had no long term vision, but Ido know that if you, if you want
to spend a ton of time outdoors,but, but I won't have a career
(35:12):
that is not based in theoutdoors, that career is going
to take a hit.
And again, it's choices, right?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, absolutely choices.
And, you know, there aredifferent ways to look at it.
Uh, I think me personally, um,um, I, I took some time, I've
taken time, chunks of time in mycareer to pursue climbing, to
(35:36):
pursue surfing.
And I, I think I realized that Ipersonally don't have any talent
to do those things full time.
So for me, To be able to staymotivated and actually, actually
be motivated for climbing andsurfing.
I have to have like a moreconventional career around.
You know, doing things behindthe desk and working with
(35:58):
people.
So I think for me, that balanceseems to, obviously you are
taking hits, but in some waysit's also kind of coming
together because, because onething keeps me motivated to, uh,
to engage and, uh, succeed in,uh, in the other.
I think doing just one thingmakes it a little bit, uh, My,
(36:19):
I, I just couldn't, I could,that wasn't complicated enough
for me.
So I'm married a wonderfulFrench woman.
And have to be back there a lotand my job also requires a ton
of travel and travel kills youlike it's really hard to stay
fit when traveling and Iactually tell the people where
(36:44):
I'm going, I'm going to have acouple hours each day for some
exercise, even if we're in thein rural Zambia.
And so, uh, and it's not alwaysmanaged.
And the problem for me is I'm,there are some people who would
be looking for it.
Oh God, I can't wait till myrun.
And for me, it's like, okay, Icarved out the time how I got to
(37:06):
go run.
Cause I actually hate workingout in all its forms.
And I do it because it makes meable to do the things I'd love
better and longer.
But God, I hate it.
I get it.
No, I think it's for me again.
Yeah.
Exercise is kind of means.
(37:27):
To an end, and I think thesports that I engage in, I think
I think of them as play.
Um, so Kevin, um, yeah, I do twothings I wanted to ask you of
that one is, are you able tocombine any of your work trips
to some of these places aroundthe world?
I know that, you know, you'refunded, for example, if he's
looked into fundingentrepreneurs in places, even
such as Pakistan.
(37:48):
Where the, uh, triangle is.
So one question I have is, um,if you have successfully been
able to combine, uh, any tripswhere you've been able to, you
know, climb mountains or surfwith the work you're doing, um,
let's start with that questionfirst.
Um, do and more in the past thanI have in present, and I hope I
(38:14):
do it more in the future, whichis to say, let's see, I went to
Tibet six times, and I didn't doany big climbs there, but I got
to see and get close to a lot ofmountains.
And the one trip to India, Iended up doing some climbing in
the Garwa and I used to keep asurfboard in Liberia.
(38:38):
It still is somewhere there.
There's just, there's someawesome waves there.
Not huge, but some reallyincredible.
Uh, points in, in, um, Liberiaand South Africa, I've got
surfing friends there.
So we have some stuff in SouthAfrica.
(38:59):
And so, so whenever I can, butthe, the thing that is funny is
when I first did Lago, I didn'treally know what a great program
was and what a great solutionwas and how to assess a great
leader.
And now we go where the bestideas and the best leaders are,
and they may be in Nigeria andNigeria is no, no picnic for a
(39:23):
climber or surfer to go to.
It's hot and flat and, um, butthe people, the energy there,
the exuberance, theentrepreneurship, and the, the,
the generation of ideas, you gotto go there if you do my kind of
work.
And it's going to have a billionpeople and by the way, like 2050
(39:46):
or something.
So, you know, I tend to, andnow, now I've got a team where
like, we all have to do ourshare of traveling.
And yeah, I mean, like two ofthem said, we're going to
Indonesia this fall.
And I'm like, wait a second.
I want to go to Indonesia.
(40:10):
So they went to Indonesia andthey didn't surf.
Maybe Kevin, I need to come joinyour team as like an intern,
just so I can, uh, be, beselfish about, uh, this, this,
some of this upcoming, uh,travel you, your team has.
Kevin, given the other, theother thing, the other thing
I'll just mention is thatsometimes you don't know, like I
(40:33):
just went to Malawi.
I'd never been to Malawi before.
Malawi has huge granite wallsthat top out at 10, 000 feet on
the border with Zimbabwe.
And then apparently there's thiswhole area of really nice
granite domes in the north ofthe country, and I just wasn't
tapped in and didn't know that,and now I'm like, I mean, I was
(40:56):
leaving and I was, I was talkingto people back home.
I was talking to my assistant.
Can you extend this?
Can I extend this?
Can we put the other part of thetrip back?
I got to go see this.
But we couldn't, so I'll, I'll,I'll have to go back.
Fair, fair.
Um, well, at least you got alittle teaser of, uh, what's out
there, maybe for a future tripor at least to share with others
(41:19):
who might end up listening tothis and, uh, end up in Malawi
at the same time.
Kevin, given, given your hectic,uh, You know, your hectic
routines.
Um, and you know, one of thethings I'm trying to understand
by talking to people such asyourself is any, any routines
that you follow, you know, itcould be things like certain
(41:41):
exercises, working with coaches,things that you've learned over
the years, help you stay in someshape.
that when you actually go backto surf or go back to climbing
after, you know, hectic travel,you're able to, uh, jumpstart,
uh, back in.
(42:02):
Um, well, more and more I'm ableto keep, like, not lose too much
ground on a trip.
And then, um, I can just dosomething every day.
You know, like, my office is onRussian Hill.
I'm on Ocean Beach.
I ride my bike as fast as I canthere and back.
(42:22):
Um, I'll go, if I got noalternative, I'll go run up and
down the dune, you know, 30times.
I'll surf.
I'll rehabilitate whatevercurrent injury I have.
And, you know, now I'm realizingthat, like, I'm going to be
doing shoulder exercises untilI'm dead.
So, those have to happen everyday.
(42:45):
Yeah, stretches, thoseexercises, you know, stabilizing
the scapula that has to happenevery day now and core strength
is going to help avoid injury.
So some of that has to happenevery day and every day for me
is different.
Like sometimes I might have totalk to somebody in Zimbabwe at
(43:07):
six o'clock in the morning andthat day is going to look very
different than the day before.
So.
You know, my life is chaos,right?
And so it's just kind of like,look at the schedule, where do I
have a break?
And I try to tell my team and myassistant, I want a three hour
break every day during surfseason somewhere.
(43:31):
And the bummer is when OceanBeach goes off in the morning
and you.
Carved that out in the afternoonand oh, well, yeah, but, um, but
I make sure there's time to dosomething every day, even if
it's go up the street and get onmy neighbor's rowing machine or
watch something on Netflix.
Um, and that's the best I cando.
I'm, I'm not.
(43:52):
I'm not a very organized person.
I'm not a very disciplinedperson.
I'm just super motivated to getto do these things.
I mean, I'm fundamentally lazy.
The best way to do things is todo the thing.
So it's first season.
Ocean beach.
I do not need other exercisesafter paddling out on 10 foot
(44:13):
ocean beach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I, I'm with you.
I think, uh, I think, um, thedesire to do these things, I
think that is paramount.
And I think everything else kindof follows like what you talked
about, you know, doing, doingrehab.
I I've seen that myself.
I actually stopped surfing for ayear and a half because I
(44:35):
thought I had one shoulder forthe garner.
I'm 44 and I injured theshoulder climbing at a crack in
Yosemite many years ago.
My author told me that short ofa full shoulder replacement, uh,
you know, a few years down, I, Ishouldn't use it for, uh, these
kinds of sports and long storyshort, I found a great, uh, I
(44:57):
found that was bullshit.
Yeah, that was bullshit.
So I got, and then what's theother thing that I did in my
case was I've had, uh, I finallylike I've had a timing coach.
The last few years and took methrough this assessment and they
told me that I basically have avery big shoulder.
So the rehab that they had medoing to get stronger for
(45:18):
climbing, got my shouldersstronger and mobile enough that
in a recent trip and a trip lastmonth to the, to the Dominican
Republic, which I went to dosomething else.
I actually paddled out, youknow, tentatively.
And then I.
And then I surfed every day ofthe 10 days I was there and I
(45:44):
was like, wow, I'm like, I, Isee you.
I, I really started believingthat, you know, that adage where
it's really, you have to listento your body and you have to
like, you know, look beyond whatthe medical experts might tell
you.
Having said that, any coaches ortherapists or any such
professionals that you want togive a shout out to in this
(46:07):
call?
Um, well, I have an orthopedistDave Eck and he's a surfer,
really good surfer.
And so he thinks a lot aboutshoulders and surfing.
And so he's been, he's been botha great source of advice, but
(46:30):
also, uh, also, um, you know,treatment and when they needed
it.
And, um, but actually it's sointeresting you bring that up.
I'm looking for, um, really goodcoaching.
Now, I've had some good, um, Ican't even remember their names.
(46:54):
I had some, two years ago, I hadsome people help me with some
really good work on shoulders.
But honestly, I think it waspretty generic.
I just needed somebody to giveme some well known stuff so I
know I was going to be reportingback into them.
But I wish like hell I had sortof discovered coaching a long
(47:17):
time ago because I've beendoing, you know, that Cirque
athlete guide you run into himon online.
What's the name again?
I can't even remember his name.
He has a program.
Oh, Cirque Mastery.
No, Cirque athlete.
Um, okay.
There's probably a lot of guys,but the.
I realized, for example, is thisthe guy who's based out in
(47:39):
Moray?
No, I went to that guy who doespaddling coaching.
Oh, yeah.
I did you hear about him fromJosh Weezy?
Because I heard about it fromJosh Weezy.
Yeah, and I went to see him andhe was wonderful.
And what I learned, I mean, Ilearned two things that made a
(48:01):
huge difference.
I learned that I'd been reachingtoo far, basically pushing water
down instead of pushing myselfforward.
And you hear that and you'relike, well, I've been an idiot.
And then I was, I was probably.
At least on some of my boardssitting too far back and pushing
water forward as I pound andwhen he got me, he got me, uh,
(48:25):
got my way forward into theboard to point.
It felt like, wow, this is toofar.
But in fact.
He kind of showed me that, wow,this board's a lot flatter.
And he also said, showed me howto, you know, I needed to keep
my head down because thatbrought the front of the board
up and I was pushing wateragain.
And I realized that probablysome of my shoulder arthritis
(48:49):
has had to do with that dumbthing of Reaching way forward,
thinking you're cranking, butsome of your stroke is just
pushing down and think of whatthat does, what kind of pressure
that puts on your shoulder for,well, I, you know, 3000 strokes
in a huge session.
So I just, and, and then, andthen I realized, okay, my, my
(49:13):
takeoff is, is sort ofdeteriorating and it never was,
it's always been the sketchiestpart of my circuit.
And you just learned to take offback in the day by kind of
watching some people and youwould hop up on the beach some,
and then you would try it.
And so then I found this, thissurf athlete guy.
(49:34):
I wish I could remember his namebecause I should give him
credit.
Um, and he has this programcalled the perfect pop up and he
gives you all of these mobilitythings to do and exercise
things, but he's mostly teachingyou the motion and probably some
people, some surfers have seenthat video from Slater's surf
ranch, where he does slo mo andall these pros take off.
(49:57):
I have seen that video.
I've, I have, I didn't know thatthat was that, uh, individual,
but yes, I have seen thatparticular video.
I worship that video.
And, um.
And it was hilarious, this guy,okay, here's how, here's the
dumb way to do many people atthis pop ups and it was as if
somebody videoed me and then Isaw that the, you know, and sort
(50:23):
of two step, but first way,elegant way to pop up and I'm
trying to learn, I'm trying tolearn the pop up all over again,
like tear it down to thebearings and rebuild it and
it's, It's super fun, but it'sshocking after all this time,
how hard it is to something I'mgetting good at in my living
(50:46):
room to 200 yards that way.
And Kevin, just so peopleunderstand, you know, um, so by
the way, uh, the pop up is alsomy weakest link.
And I've only been at it forlike a decade and you've been
doing this for several decadesnow, surfing that is.
(51:08):
And I think the point I want to,I want to come across is that
it's never too late.
to re examine what might be apermanent habit, what might be
something that we think is sheerproofed, and find an opportunity
to deconstruct and to improveit.
(51:32):
So without geeking out on thistoo much, Man, you and I need to
get together after this and talkabout pop ups and talk about
shoulder arthritis because youhave a kindred spirit in me.
I would love to learn, love tolearn what you've been doing and
I can share whatever couple ofthings that, uh, that, uh, that
I've been doing.
(51:52):
Um, uh, one thing, yeah, onething that I wanted to kind of
look at is, you know, taking,uh, taking another step is, um,
Habits, right?
Um, you spoke about some ofthese habits you have about
being diligent with your rehaband looking at any, any other,
let's say beliefs or behaviorsin the last decade, you think
(52:16):
has had the most profound impacton, uh, you?
Um, yeah, some we should have ina private conversation, but, um.
(52:39):
I think one of the main thingsis just taking sleep yet again
more seriously, and I'm not anawesome sleeper by nature, and
then there's jet lag, and I'vegotten really disciplined about
my jet lag routine.
And I have, uh, I have, um,gotten more disciplined, uh, you
(53:05):
know, that thing of sleep on theside of midnight is often more
valuable and just taking serioussleep more seriously and making
sure I have an eight, eight,eight hour cargo carving out for
that.
I think it seemed to feel bestwith about seven and a half, and
then I have to carve out eightif I want to hit it and some
(53:26):
nights I still can't sleep.
Occasionally, and it's a work inprogress and I do have a routine
around it and I don't look at,don't look at devices, you know,
uh, for at least the last halfhour before I go to bed, if not,
not better on and, uh, you know,cold, cool and quiet and
(53:51):
comfortable.
And zero light, because againand again, the research shows
that any little bit of lightdecreases the quality.
So I've been taking sleep stuffreally seriously.
Super cool.
Um, I'm probably, yeah, I can'tstand trying to do My life does
(54:12):
not make eating any certain waysuper difficult.
And, um, again, I'm lazy.
Don't, don't want to spend abunch of time preparing food.
And, um, you know, I don'talways order in the restaurant.
I order what's tasty.
And so, yeah, I mean, I feellike, I feel like I could, I,
(54:35):
there's a lot I could do aboutdiet that I haven't.
I was actually going to ask youabout that, uh, Kevin, um, any,
any, um, any food routines, uh,any, I know you travel a lot, so
I'm sure to, to some degree it'shard for you to manage your
diet, but other than that, likeyou, you take any supplements?
(54:58):
Are you, you avoid certainfoods?
I do.
So I seem to always be trying toheal something.
I take magnesium and vitamin D.
Um, and again, you know, I'vebeen looking at, at, uh.
Paul Metformin, and Resveratrol,and NMN, some of these things
(55:23):
would have some good data behindthem in terms of the longevity
research, and I'm, you know,part of me gets discouraged,
like, oh God, I'd be carding allthat stuff all over the world.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'mgonna go ahead with that.
I'm gonna give God a go, becausethere's good data behind it.
(55:44):
The guy who wrote Lifespan, he'sgot his name, David Sinclair
maybe?
I don't know.
David, yeah, he's a serious, youknow, he's a serious scientist
and kind of, why not?
I don't want to regret it laterand you know, one of the things
he says, it's never too late tostart.
Um, I've got.
(56:05):
You know, I've got these twostepdaughters that are, are
super close to and they're,they're taking up climbing and
surfing respectively, and I'dlike to be doing this stuff with
them as long as I can.
And, you know, my stepdaughterand her boyfriend are getting
better at climbing really fast.
So have a couple of rope guns inthe family pretty soon.
(56:28):
We love going together.
So whatever I can do to keepdoing that, so I might even stop
eating ice cream and cheese if Ihave to.
That would be, uh, the ultimatesacrifice, uh, but for a good
cause, but the, you know, theother thing is, um, just staying
(56:48):
happy and two of the things thatreally helped you stay happy or
meaningful work andrelationships.
And I put, I've always put a lotinto work that luckily for me is
super meaningful.
Um, and I've always had good.
Good relationships, but I'mactually putting that much more
(57:10):
effort into them, not in somekind of mechanical way to get it
happier, but just, you justrealize they're important in all
kinds of levels.
And that's been a little bit ofa tough one, climbing, because
maybe there's some listeners.
I love Baupin climbing most, andI love long routes in the Sierra
(57:32):
most.
And I'm super picky about, um,who I go with, you know,
obviously you got to be safeand, you know, if they're better
than me, you can do harderroutes.
If I'm better, we can dowhatever routes I can do.
But mostly I want to, I want tobe, uh, Have a better friend
(57:56):
when we get back.
Yeah, I know, Kevin, you know,you're, you're preaching to the
choir, like, as I get old, Ialso get a little prickly about,
uh, people I climb with,especially again, when it comes
to doing longer trips to, uh, tomore involved climbs, because as
(58:19):
I shared with somebody the otherday, you know, when I was,
Getting into climbing, thestroke of just being able to do
routes I love was enough for meto tolerate really anybody on
the other end of the rope.
But now when I go climbing, likeI want the whole thing to be a
rich experience, the planning,the anticipations, the co
(58:40):
planning, the drive to the crag,the shared meal after, and of
course the actual climbing, likeI want the whole thing to be an
amazing experience.
And if, if I think I'm not goingto get, uh, that to some degree,
I would almost not wanna go onthat climbing trip because, you
(59:04):
know, time is precious.
And I think, I think My richestfriendships have come from the
world of climbing and, uh, andyeah, I think, uh, people in my
world, like people such asyourself, uh, and others, uh, I
think are inspirations and Iwould only want to deepen those
(59:24):
further and, and take those, uh,take those ahead.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I, you know, the last I'mhoping to find some good
partners, you know, I have mylongtime partner.
Michael Reaser and we've climbedPeru and the Alps a lot and
Sierra and you know he's, he'sjust had a baby or his wife had
(59:47):
a baby and he's getting intoparagliding which is a really
smart thing to do here in thisneighborhood because you can Do
it when we're surfing is shitty.
And, um, and, uh, he's a busyguy too, but I, I, I am looking
actively looking for.
(01:00:08):
Alpine partners that want to dolong moderates and just love the
whole mountain experiencebecause, um, and I've really
enjoyed this, but the lastdecade has been mostly climbing
long stuff myself, you know, theNorth Ridge of K'ness, the West
Ridge of K'ness, East Glide ofWhitney, the North Ridge of Lone
(01:00:28):
Pine Peak.
Um, and kind of tired of that,for sure, for sure.
Um, Kevin, um, here's a, here'sa, uh, uh, you know, you've had
all these great friendships overthe years.
(01:00:49):
What might be, what might begreat gift?
That you have given somebody in,in that, in that, um, in that
realm, any realm, any realm.
(01:01:13):
Well, I mean, I probably, youknow, the most rewarding
experiences from that regard ofgiving have been with these, the
most wonderful people on earth,these people who founded
organizations that are going tohave tremendous impact in the
world.
And there's a lot of them thatI've had.
Mentoring relationships thatwent well beyond my sort of job
(01:01:37):
description and it'sunbelievably satisfying because
they're in it and it's like mostthings that I do it's, it's
pretty selfish and that it's,it's its own reward, but I think
that I think that I've given alot of them have told me later
about support I gave them whenperhaps.
Others weren't.
(01:01:57):
And, and they needed somebody tohave shape to them for sure.
Um, and I think I never pushedmy stepdaughters to do these
things, but I see them, I know,I know I played a role in them,
taking them up and like so many,I see all the positive effects
it has in their lives.
(01:02:19):
Beautiful I, I also see I alsosee the career that the youngest
one is gonna take, and I give itthumbs up.
Nice.
Nice.
What about, uh, maybe thecorollary, which is maybe what's
a great gift that you havereceived that, uh, has made an
(01:02:44):
impact on you?
Well, uh, you know, Mark Minikerbecame my, was, was set up to be
my mentor in medicine.
Um, and that ended up, you know,we hit it off.
And so I ended up bailing onmedicine.
(01:03:07):
medical school, which I, Ibasically I couldn't stand, I
couldn't sit through stuff, andjust going to his clinic and
kind of learning by, in aclosely supervised way of doing.
And, you know, he didn't have toteach me how to surf big waves.
That was a real, that was a,that was a huge gift.
(01:03:28):
And, um, and, um, andinterestingly, Mark is an
inveterate explorer.
And as soon as well suits got,got better and better, he
started exploring really coldwater places.
And I love exploring and I don'tmind coal.
And, um, you know, we've endedup, he and a married band of
(01:03:51):
others have ended up, you know,going around Iceland and going
to Antarctica and going all overthe Aleutians and the Alaskan
panhandle.
Um.
That was a gift because I wentto a bunch of places I never
would have gone otherwise.
And so many people have taughtme stuff that, you know, taking
the time to teach me stuff inthe mountains and, and the
(01:04:13):
water.
Um, and I've had someastonishing mentors in my, in
my, um, early work life.
So I've got a lot and I hopeI've, I hope I've given a
fraction as much.
I love that answer.
(01:04:35):
Yeah, it's the gifts that, thatyou have received and the gifts
that you've given, you know,those are not one time.
And those have been both thegift and the recipients have
been carefully selected andcurated, which means that those
(01:04:55):
could not have been given tojust anybody.
Kevin, what is, um, you know,you've had a world of
experiences with your travels,with the work that you do.
Can you think of perhaps afailure, but a failure that has
(01:05:16):
taught you much?
I would say, um, there's notsome big resounding single
failure, but there's just beenthis low level.
Non acute sense of failure andmost sense that I've just never
(01:05:37):
gotten good at either one ofthese things I love as I would
like to and But it's a kind offailure that isn't it's not so
terrible because for me it'saccompanied by the Probably
complete delusion that you knowwhat this next year.
I'll be a little better You knowbecause like this like like um
(01:06:05):
And, and I do see that as tofailure.
Like, um, you know, there's somesong by the presidents, a band
from years ago.
And it's like, we're not, thesong's called, we're not going
to make it.
And the lyrics are, cause wedon't have the talent and we
didn't put in the time.
And it, it kind of is that,right?
(01:06:26):
I don't, I'm not particularlytalented as a climber or surfer.
My, my climbing, my best talentis to absorb pain.
And that's probably my besttalent as a surfer, but I'm not
particularly, I'm notparticularly good at either one.
And I, I know enough now that toknow ways in which I could have
(01:06:48):
made some different decisions.
I could have got, I could havelooked for and gotten coaching
help.
I could have worked out harder.
Um, and.
You know, uh, I could have hungout less on, on some climbing
trips and climbed more, but, butthen that's balanced off by
(01:07:13):
this, this weird, weird, veryconstructive delusion I have
that I think this year is goingto be better.
In fact, if I get my top up, ifI could buy takeoff Doug and I
could have the best year ever,maybe I'll actually work on my
finger strength this year.
And if I did that and my fingersgot a lot stronger, maybe I
(01:07:37):
could climb as well as or betterthan I've ever climbed.
And that, that, um, I see thatas a real positive.
Because, you know, again, what,uh, Last year, last year, last
year, I felt like I was gettingthere.
And in January, we're justgetting this amazing run of
Ocean Beach Surge.
And I was starting to make everyone and, and then I, my board
(01:08:04):
and I went on a big, big,powerful day, my board and I
went in opposite directions andI was wearing one of those thick
reashes that doesn't break andit pulled just wrong and it tore
my medial collateral ligamentand my ENOC was January 10 was
the last day I, I surfed until alittle while ago and okay, so
(01:08:26):
this year will be the best yearever.
Um.
And you might as well, Kevin.
Hey, um, what you, you know, uh,you call it being delusional.
I think the rest of the worldcalls it, um, optimism.
(01:08:46):
And, uh, I think I'm an internaloptimist like yourselves.
Uh, even though, yes.
I think I'm actually moredelusional than, than I, I
really should, uh, should goback and think about that.
Uh, but no, I think that's,that's completely true.
I mean, Hey, even if we don'tsucceed in everything we set out
to do, I think just having goalsis, uh, it's 50%, you know, um,
(01:09:11):
of the whole thing, um, talkingof talking of.
Talking of getting better in thefuture and, uh, talking of, uh,
having some of these hopes anddreams.
Here's, here's, uh, anotherquestion for you.
Do you like your future or yourpast more?
(01:09:33):
Um, future.
Okay.
I mean, there's much that I lovein my past and there's periods
of my past I wish I could dodifferently, but I mean, I feel
consistently like in my work,I'm seeing some of my med school
classes.
Uh, classmates are retiring andI feel like I'm just hitting the
(01:09:55):
stride.
And so, yeah, I'm, I'm, um, Igotta say aging is out my mind a
lot because not because I can'tremain like, uh, delusional in
this constructive way, but morethat I just know there's, there
(01:10:18):
is a certain amount of time thatis my future.
And.
I'm going to have to accept somestuff coming forward and I want
to do so gracefully, but, um,God, the possibilities are still
really bright and, and I mightserve better tomorrow than I did
(01:10:39):
yesterday.
And, uh, why not?
Why not give it a go?
I love that.
Um, Kevin, we're nearing the endof our time here.
And I know that there is stillsome time for a sunset surf.
So I, I just want to ask yousome quick, uh, fun, rapid fire
(01:11:00):
type of questions, and then wecan call it, uh, call it an
evening.
What is a favorite meal that youcould eat the rest of your life?
Some form of Japanese, you know,uh, just pretty basic miso and
(01:11:21):
sushi and sashimi and, and, uh,I did dashi and I could.
I, I, I am a person who couldprobably eat the same thing
every night.
Fair.
You know, I, I turned, uh, uh,vegetarian a few years ago.
I think my, uh, my biggestweakness remains, uh, good
(01:11:41):
Japanese food, particularly goodsushi.
What is a, what, I don't know ifyou want to watch movies, but if
you, if you do, what's afavorite movie that you could
see again and again?
Um, the movie, uh, my favoritemovie probably of all time is
(01:12:02):
Fargo.
The Coen brothers.
I just love the Coen brothers.
And I love, you know, it's,it's, it's always a little bit
over the top and it'sexaggerated, but as a picture of
human foibles and human nature.
Um, I just love, I love thoseguys, and I love that particular
(01:12:25):
one.
With more thought I might comeup with something different, but
it's always the thing that popsto mind.
That's a really good one.
What's a, what's a music show?
I don't know, again, if you goto concerts, but is there a
particular concert that you wentto that, uh, you will always,
(01:12:51):
uh, remember?
Um, I go to a lot of jazz and,uh, and I love SF Jazz Center,
um, just cause how hard they're,they're working to keep jazz
alive and cause the acousticsare perfect.
And I went there once to hearStanley Clark, this legendary
(01:13:12):
bass, he's older than me.
And he just had this, thisdrummer, Mike Mitchell with him.
And I remember he was Onkeyboards, but it was just like
watching the sky past the torchis both the drummer and the
piano player.
This guy, Mike Mitchell ondrums.
He's like the future.
(01:13:32):
And so you are watching thisbeautifully disgraceful kind of
Passing in the torch of one ofthe, the original people who
took jazz bass electric and the,the utter future of, of jazz and
this intentional, um, handoverand I just, it sticks in my head
(01:13:59):
more than any music experienceI've had in years.
Sounds like a, yeah, sounds likea beautiful experience and just
the last question before we callit, uh, if you were to meet, uh,
the, uh, 30 year old, uh, KevinStarr, would you tell that
person to do somethingdifferently?
(01:14:27):
Uh, yeah, I tell myself to do abunch of things differently.
Um, one thing is I would say tomyself, uh, Date anybody longer
than six months until, and ifyou don't feel like you want to
marry him.
(01:14:50):
Um, I tell myself to take thething that I really love and
find a good coach for each ofthem.
Um, and I would remind myselfnot to hang out with anybody who
did not consistently, not allthe time, but consistently leave
(01:15:12):
me feeling better at goodbyethan I did as hello.
That's a, uh, that's a really,uh, poignant one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that, that's, that's verythoughtful.
Any, uh, final words, Kevin,before we, uh, before we part?
(01:15:36):
Well, I think I've made thispoint enough, but, um, You know,
why not be optimistic anddelusional, if it helps?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
I might actually have tochristen this show, this
particular episode, the, the,the optimistic and the
delusional, um, FTW.
(01:16:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Kevin, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
And I know the, uh, The oceanbeach, uh, just the surf scene
is just beginning and I'm justgetting back to it.
And, uh, when the beaches, uh,is, uh, it's still not massive.
Uh, yeah, I would love to, uh,paddle out with you.
(01:16:22):
Oh, absolutely.
Thanks so much.
This is super fun.
You're doing a good thing here.
Thanks a lot.
Goodbye.
Wow.
What a great conversation.
Many things stood out to me.
Balance in our lives is perhapsa myth.
(01:16:45):
There are only choices.
Kevin manages to deftly weave inathletic pursuits during his
world travels to far flungcorners of the globe.
He shared some great tips onbeing flexible with a choice of
exercise as well as listening toboth one's body and the mind
(01:17:08):
when healing from injuries.
Kevin's zeal to pursue a life ofpurpose while also pushing that
reach of human exploration isinfectious.
Finally, words that stuck out tome were To spend time with
people who consistently make usfeel better at a goodbye than
(01:17:35):
they do at hello.
Funny, huh?
Offline, Kevin wanted me toextend gratitude to his wife,
who is happily supportive of hissports, as well as Halifetico,
his 82 year old body worker whohas helped him tremendously.
(01:17:59):
Thanks for tuning in friends.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, like, and share with
others.
And don't forget to leave areview rating.
Until next time, stay ageless.
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