🚀 A dynamo of focus and tenacity – Lee Sheftel is 77 and has been crushing it since forever. At almost 60, achieving 5.14, a 99.9% percentile grade in rock climbing, completing the Grand Teton traverse at 70 – Lee's rewriting the book on aging with power. But here's the kicker – he's not your typical climbing prodigy. Lee spills the beans on his secret training sauce, from biohacking his diet, to experimenting with performance enhancers. Oh, and did I mention he's a piano virtuoso too? 🎹
Join us as we unravel Lee's extraordinary journey and discover:
- 🔄 Lee’s routines and habits that allowed him to keep progressing in his 50s and even his 60s
- ⚡ Continuing to train for power, contrary to accepted wisdom
- 🥗 Different diets (raw vegan, anyone?) and what worked, what didn’t?
- 🏋️♂️ Mobility, exercise, and physical rehab that has helped Lee bounce back from career-ending injuries
- 💊 Controversial enhancing supplements and whether they helped
- 🔍 And finally, radical acceptance - accepting the outcome but continuing the fight
Tune in to be inspired and informed! 🎧
If you've enjoyed the show, please plesase drop a quick review or rating on Spotify or Apple. It helps reach more listeners. I thank you mucho! 💜
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Yeti Stereo Microphone (00:00):
Friends, welcome back to the Ageless
Athlete Podcast, where weuncover stories and tease out
secrets of badass athletes in aquest to stay ageless.
Yeti Stereo Microphone-2 (00:11):
I'm your host, Kush Khandelwal,
bringing you the energy from mymission district bunker in San
Francisco.
Huge shout out to our listeners.
You rock.
Today, brace yourself for a veryspecial guest.
A dynamo of will and tenacity,Lee Sheftal is 77 and has been
crushing it since forever.
(00:33):
Climbing 514 at 59.
Conquering the Grand TetonTraverse at 70.
Lee's rewriting the book onaging gracefully.
But here's the kicker.
He's not just a climbingsensation.
Lee spills the beans on hissecret training sauce.
From biohacking his diet toexperimenting with performance
(00:55):
enhancers.
Oh, and did I mention he's apiano virtuoso too?
So get ready for a great episodepacked with inspiration,
perspiration, and a fewsurprises.
Let's roll! And hey, if you'revibing with the energy, share it
with a friend who needs a doseof this awesomeness.
kush_1_01-19-2024_140604 (01:17):
Hi, Lee.
it's a pleasure to connect,
Kush (01:20):
quick intros.
I am in San Francisco thisafternoon.
Uh, where are you located?
Lee (01:26):
Carbondale, Colorado.
Kush (01:28):
Excellent.
right in, uh, the middle of,fantastic, rock climbing and,
and the outdoors, in theRockies.
Would love to kick off with a,quick intro.
Where did you grow up?
what do you do?
How old are you?
and what did you have forbreakfast today?
Lee (01:47):
so I'll start with the breakfast.
I typically don't eat breakfast.
I eat, well, kind of, I kind ofeat a, I guess you could call it
a brunch because, I pretty muchadhere to intermittent fasting,
keep my weight down so I don'teat for at least 15 hours after
I eat dinner.
So that means that I don't starteating until around, the
(02:07):
earliest I'll ever eat is around10 30 or 11 o'clock in the
morning.
I grew up in Long Island, NewYork, a town called Roslyn.
throughout my teenage years Iwas into sports, but I had no
idea what climbing was oranything about climbing.
I was into football, baseball,pretty much every sport that was
available at the time.
(02:28):
I did like the outdoors.
I went to camp for about fouryears.
Where I did a lot of outdooractivities.
my profession wasn't alwaysthis, but it has been for about
40, let me think, since 1980, soabout 45 years, I've been a, uh,
a tax tax professional.
I do income taxes for a living.
Kush (02:49):
Great.
Uh, and how old are you?
Uh, Lee?
Lee (02:53):
I am 77 years old right now.
Kush (02:55):
Great.
Uh, seven, seven years young.
Lee (02:58):
Hmm.
Kush (02:58):
Thanks for the background, uh, to add to it.
Uh, what's your, uh, backgroundwith, sports where did you
begin?
Rock climbing.
Lee (03:08):
Let's see.
I would say that I be, becamevery attracted to the outdoors
almost immediately after I gotout of college.
So that would've been back in1968.
And so from 1968 until about1978, I predominantly hiked,
well, hiking.
(03:29):
I did some sort of like, uh,scrambling, mountaineering type
of stuff, but nothing with ropesor anything like that.
And I got introduced to rockclimbing in around 1978.
the reason why I got into it,actually is very interesting
because at my time, my, mygirlfriend at the time, uh, we
were taking a four month trip inmy, uh, camper, and
Kush (03:54):
Hmm.
Lee (03:54):
we were in Boulder.
And we decided to climb it.
Climb up the flat irons, oractually on the side of the flat
irons.
And I ended up just me, but nother.
I wandered out on, on one of theflat irons, I think it was the
first flat iron.
I just wandered out on the face.
I don't know why I even did.
I did that.
I just started.
(04:15):
Next thing I knew, I wasactually in fifth class climbing
and I didn't know how climbreally.
And it was probably, I'mguessing about 5, 6, 5 7
climbing, and I was terrifiedand I thought I was gonna die.
Kush (04:32):
if you live in Boulder, that's like a popular, uh, the
Flat Irons, I think at least oneof the scrambles on it is, uh,
often done, uh, free solo style.
Like people don't use ropes andit's like a kind of a fun
activity these days.
Lee (04:47):
I, I noticed some people later that day that were rope
climbing.
I think they were being guidedand I was like, oh, it's
interesting.
People use ropes.
but anyway, after I managedobviously not to die and got off
that first flat iron, I decidedthat that was, I liked the idea
of climbing, but I don't wannaever do that again.
(05:07):
So I hired a 18-year-old kidthat a friend of mine told me
about to teach me.
can't remember his name,
Kush (05:15):
Okay.
Lee (05:16):
it's been too long ago.
Anyway, he took me out climbingin Santa Barbara and.
He taught me how to, you know,how to tie into a rope and how
to climb.
And I think we did top roping.
And at the end of the day, heasked me, so what do I think?
I said, I, I don't know wherethis is, has been all my life.
Kush (05:34):
Mm-Hmm,
Lee (05:35):
So at that point on, I pursued the sport, fairly
religiously.
Kush (05:40):
sure, sounds like there was some, uh, fascination, some
fear, some intrigue the firsttime you, uh, you began the
sport.
But I think, uh, soon after,maybe like the rest of us, uh,
became an enduring obsession.
I guess, uh, 35 odd years later,you're still, climbing.
(06:04):
I wanna talk a little bit aboutyour, uh, your history with
climbing.
And one thing I wanna, point outis, uh, you climbed, you know,
the lofty grade of, uh, five 14,I think at the age of, uh, 59 or
so.
do you think you still might bethe, uh, the oldest person to
(06:25):
have climbed, uh, this grade Andthen also to a non climber?
Uh, how would you describe, likethe five 14 grade?
Maybe to somebody whounderstands running or a
different sport.
Uh, how difficult of a grade isfive 14
Lee (06:41):
well, you know, I mean, these days, uh.
Uh, five 14 is not that an ammathat amazing of a grade because
people now for the last 15, 20years have been just training in
gyms and, um, I mean, there weregyms back when I did it when I
was 59, but that was 18 yearsago, and the training methods
(07:02):
were not as sophisticatedeither, and people weren't
starting as young either.
So, you know, five 14 is, is a,a hard grade.
It's hard for most people for99.9% of the climbers out there.
but there's different types.
So probably just like there'sdifferent type of races for
(07:23):
runners, for example, climbing.
a particular grade like five 14or any grade for that matter,
can be very power oriented, canbe really short.
I've tried a number of them.
Kush (07:35):
mm-Hmm
Lee (07:36):
back in New Mexico, I actually got on five 14 and, um,
it was so short and so powerfulthat there was no way I could do
the moves.
There wasn't even, I couldn't, Irealized that if I was gonna do
a five 14 or, or any, anything,or even five thirteens, that
they're gonna have to beoriented, which is what my
strength has always been.
Is endurance climbing, notnecessarily power climbing.
Kush (07:59):
For sure.
I understand that.
Uh, you also ran quite a bit orwere a runner, so to speak.
Before, uh, you begun climbing.
Did you also run with the sameaplomb and then did you, did you
continue running?
I entered
Lee (08:19):
some competitions, but I've never been very good at it.
I'm, or very fast.
Anyway, so basically.
Uh, almost my entire time I wasa runner.
I did it for, for being fit andrecreational and I enjoyed
running in the mountains.
yeah, but I, didn't reallycompete that much.
Kush (08:38):
Sure.
going back to, uh, some of themilestones and climbing that
you, take some pride and, uh,would love to hear about maybe
some things you, uh, thatbrought you, uh, you know, a
sense of accomplishment thatalso took you, uh, a lot of hard
work
Lee (08:54):
when I started to really get into climbing, back when I,
even when I was in Santa Fe, I.
Which has been 25 years sinceI've been there.
And I lived in this house therefor five years.
So starting 30 years ago, I'vealways had a home wall.
I And then when I moved toCarbondale, the first thing I
did was build a, a climbing wallin my garage.
(09:16):
Especially then, including now,there wasn't any training
facilities actually back then.
There weren't any.
So, um, I had to make my owntraining facility or I had to go
outside and climb.
And yes, I put in a lot, a lotof hard training and hard work
Kush (09:35):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (09:36):
accomplish my goals.
And I, you know, I would trainspecifically to do certain
routes in a specific way.
over the years I have had.
a couple of coaches.
Yeti Stereo Microphone-5 (09:47):
Having a home facility and indoor
climbing wall right in yourgarage, I would have to concur
can be an absolute game changer.
One day, I would love to haveone.
Also.
Any other accomplishments thatyou are proud of?
Flea besides obviously sendingthe, uh, greater five 14.
Lee (10:10):
Well, there's a lot of roots and rifle that I found to
be quite challenging, actually,probably the hardest, effort
that I've ever put into a route.
Mostly because I was not veryexperienced at the grade, at the
time.
So my first 13 D route.
Kush (10:26):
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Lee (10:28):
at that point I had only done 13 C I've done, at that
point, I think I had alreadyclimbed maybe two 13 Cs, maybe
three, I can't remember.
those didn't really take me thatlong to do.
Kush (10:42):
Mm-Hmm.
Lee (10:42):
Um.
I mean, actually it turns outthat in Rifle, some of the 13
Bs, B as in boy, took me longerthan the 13 Cs.
I've always told that to a lotof people,
Kush (10:53):
Hmm.
Lee (10:53):
just probably'cause of the
Kush (10:54):
Hmm.
Lee (10:55):
climbing.
But anyway, this first 13 D thatI tried in, um, rifle or
anywhere is called the Bride ofFrankenstein.
And it's fairly short.
It's not super long, but itattracted me because it's, I
could do all the moves prettyquickly and the challenge is
(11:15):
putting'em all together.
And the problem that I had withthat route is that I tell
everybody that I had zerostrategy.
I didn't really have a strategy,I just started getting on the
route, seeing how well they did.
So I'm guessing I probably havethe world's record for how many
times I could.
One, fall the route and stillnot have done it.
(11:38):
So what I was doing is warmingup on the exactly the same
roots.
It didn't matter how I felt.
It didn't matter what theweather was like.
Kush (11:47):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (11:47):
it could be really hot.
It could be really cold.
It didn't make any difference.
I did the exact same warmups andI go to the root and I tried it
two or three times in a day.
well, I wasn't getting anywhere.
I just kept one falling theroute and not getting anywhere.
And finally it dawned on me thatI ever wanna send this route, I
need to come up with a strategy.
So that's what I did.
Kush (12:08):
Sure.
Lee (12:09):
So what I did was, is I put up a route in my garage that was
similar, but not, and I toldmyself that until I can do this
route in my garage, which ispretty hard, it's a hard route.
I finally did it and then Isaid, now I have to do it at
least three times with only afive minute rest in between,
Kush (12:29):
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm
Lee (12:30):
and I will not get back on the real route that I'm trying
to do on the BRI
Kush (12:34):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (12:35):
until I accomplish that.
So I finally accomplished thatand I went back on the route,
and the second day I got back onthe route I did it.
I learned that I need to have astrategy
Kush (12:44):
Sure.
your replica training, uh, paidoff
Lee (12:48):
Well, so I also did a similar strategy.
I had a different strategy for,I mean, some people think this
route is 14 a also in rifle.
I mean, a lot of these route inrifle that are rated, I mean, a
lot of people think they'reprobably not somewhere else in
the world, 14 a Anyway.
But the hardest route I ever didis,
Kush (13:06):
isn't rifle, uh, rifle, like known as the land of, uh,
13 Ds.
You know that these rods that,that should have been, uh,
upgraded to 14 a are aresandbagged and are stuck at that
13 D grade.
Lee (13:20):
That's 13 d and that's the hardest route I have done in
rifle.
Kush (13:24):
Yeah, no, I, I can see that, uh, you are a, a
strategist and I think withclimbing, you know, people are
Yeti Stereo Microphone (13:32):
Famously lackadaisical.
Kush (13:34):
about their approach.
And, uh, people will say, Hey,you know, I'm just gonna get on
this route and I will try, try,try it until I send it.
But I think, um, I think you arethe contrarian, which is, Hey,
this is the, uh, this is theamount of time I'm gonna give
myself, and I'm gonna preparemyself with all of this training
(13:56):
so that when I actually get backon this route, I actually have a
reasonable chance of meeting myobjective.
Lee (14:02):
Well, I felt completely different after that, that that
training that I did getting morepower because this one crux that
I had a hard time with before.
On the first seven sessions orso, I'd get on that route.
I get up to the crux and even onthe dog,
Kush (14:19):
Mm-Hmm
Lee (14:20):
maybe I could do that.
Those that move one outta threetimes, that's not a good because
considering that it's probablymid five 13 just to get to that
move and there is any reallygreat rest right before it.
So I realized that helped mypower.
But when I got back on the routeafter training for it, I knew
(14:40):
right away I could, I can dothis route because it felt
completely different.
Kush (14:45):
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The before and after effect,pre-training to, uh, to
post-training.
Uh.
That's great.
Uh, uh, yeah, that's, that'sgreat summation.
I am, uh, I'm curious, uh, Lee,you know, you were, uh,
embarking to try these, uh, hardroots and, you know, you have
(15:07):
some of these first to yourname.
Were there naysayers?
I'm sure there were, you know,there were probably people who,
who thought that, you know, youcould not be climbing this hard,
or maybe there wasn't actually aprecedent of people in their
fifties, you know, sendingthirties and five fourteens.
So wondering if there wassomething, some kind of like
(15:28):
belief you had, uh, someconviction that, uh, you know, I
don't care, uh, what otherpeople are saying, or, or if
there isn't like a, uh, aprecedent here, I believe in
myself and I know that I canachieve, uh, some of these, uh.
Uh, climbing goals even if theyhaven't been done
Lee (15:47):
mean about my age?
Kush (15:48):
Yeah.
Lee (15:50):
Well, okay, so I was a late starter.
I didn't even start climbinguntil I was 33 years old.
So, and I didn't really thinkabout age until I got close to
50.
So probably around your age.
And I was like, okay, here I am.
I'm getting close to 50.
I wonder if all of a sudden I'mnot gonna be able to climb hard
anymore.
(16:10):
So those things, those thoughtsdid occur to me.
at the time, I didn't haveanybody to look up to that were,
that was older than me, that wasclimbing as hard as I was
claiming.
But I decided that, well, let's,I don't, I'm not, why don't I
just not think about my age?
(16:31):
Who knows what's possible?
Let's see what happens.
Well, soon as I turned 50 andinto my fifties, I noticed that
probably because I didn't startuntil I was 33.
And then I, you know, I hadn'treally trained very much.
I just climbed.
So I was just a, I was not asport climber until I was about,
oh God, let me think.
(16:53):
That was like the mid eighties.
So,
Kush (16:56):
Mm-Hmm
Lee (16:56):
so I'd only been climbing for about seven years, or eight
years when I started
Kush (17:00):
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm
Lee (17:02):
I was only 40, 41.
Before that, I was doing nothingbut track climbing.
So, you know, I did a lot oftrad climbing maybe that what
might, might have helped me, inthe future for sport climbing is
that when I went tra climbing,you know, the, the, the
conventional wisdom was that youdon't fall all
Kush (17:24):
Yeah.
Lee (17:24):
especially on bolts, because back then the bolts were
not reliable.
There were, star drills.
There wasn't, you know, therewere shitty bolts.
And so when sport climbing camearound.
I, that's made sure that itdidn't fall.
Whenever I was track climbing, Idid some big, pretty big track
climbs, climbed El Cap, I'vethen the west face of El Cap.
(17:47):
I climbed the rostrum, I climbedAstro Man, did all these long
tra climb.
I built up a lot of endurance.
And then, then when I firststarted sport climbing, I was
afraid to fall even on the,obviously the same bolts.
And my a really good friend ofmine, used to make fun of me all
(18:07):
the time.
Used to go, I used to say, well,fell there and go, no, you
didn't.
You, you not, I've never seenyou fall, Lee.
You just, you just take, and soI would battle the pump as hard
as I could, and I think thathelped me build endurance.
And then finally I got over the,obviously the fear of falling on
bolts.
And so.
(18:29):
Back in the mid eighties andlate eighties, that's when I
really got into sport climbing'cause it also fit my lifestyle
better.
'cause that's when I started my,I started my business.
This, this that I have now thatI still do
Kush (18:42):
Yeah.
Lee (18:43):
It required me to be around and I couldn't go traveling all
over the place and doing thesetra climbs and be, you know, I
wanted to build up my, mybusiness.
So sport climbing came along andthat just fit my lifestyle at
that time.
Kush (18:58):
Lee, uh, it's funny, uh, you know, you started tra and
went to sport.
I started climbing sport back inthe East coast, you know, at
the, uh, at the New River Gorgeand the Red River Gorge.
So when I came to,
Lee (19:13):
I love the Red River Gorge.
I have been to the Red RiverGorge at least 15 times
Kush (19:19):
Sure.
No, I, I don't think anybody,uh, even the most, uh, you know,
died in the world.
Track climbers will go to thered and, and not love the red.
It's just, uh, it's such a.
Such a playground.
So I started climbing and when Icame to California I was maybe,
uh, you know, extremely stokedon sport climbing, and then came
to San Francisco and the bestkind of climbing was trad.
(19:41):
So I was a reluctant, uh, traclimber.
And I've done like some of theroutes that you just mentioned,
and I had the opposite problemwhere I got so used to, uh, you
know, falling on bolts that whenI got to tra I had a hard time,
um, not taking the sameapproach, which is like I would
take falls on, on gear.
(20:02):
And as a, as a new learner, Ithink that sometimes terrified
my partners where, uh, insteadof hanging on, hanging on gear
and, sorry.
Lee (20:10):
have any gear pull on you?
Kush (20:12):
I have, you know, when I first started, I did have a big
fall before I even learnedbefore I, I made some really
bad, uh, gumby mistakes before Ieven learned to place, uh, gear
properly.
Uh, uh, I did have a, uh, like akind of, uh, a dramatic
accident, which I came outfairly un skated.
Once that happened, I, I wentback to the books and, uh,
(20:35):
learned how to basically climbtro in a safe, proper way.
And since then, I don't think Ireally had any, um, any gear
come off.
Uh, and I think I also became alittle bit more careful about
not always, uh, you know,whipping, uh, on, on gear.
But, uh, I don't think I haveever had, uh, any, uh,
(20:56):
significant, uh, gear.
But, uh, coming back to, comingback to you, just continuing on
the, the climbing trajectory.
So you were climbing maybe atyour physical best, let's say,
uh, upper fifties maybe now, uh,over the last, uh, let's say two
decades and leading up to now.
So today, so to speak, what'syour level of, uh, level of
(21:19):
climbing and how do you train?
Lee (21:21):
Okay, so my level of climbing right now is none.
And the reason for that is, isbecause as a lot of people that
I know me, um, about a littleover two months ago, I, I needed
to have major back surgery.
Kush (21:35):
Oh.
Lee (21:36):
I am still in the recovery process.
It's been, let me see what is,today is the 19th, so I had
November 7th I had my surgery.
So I'm about almost two and ahalf months out.
I have a follow up in about twoand a half weeks.
I.
With
Kush (21:56):
Okay.
Lee (21:56):
office.
And at that point I'm hopingthat they'll give me the go
ahead to start training againfor climbing back on the age
thing.
To give you a little more of ahistory is that when I thought I
was gonna get weaker at 50 andright at that time period,
that's when I moved up here upto Carbondale.
(22:17):
Actually a couple of that, Ithink I was 53 and I noticed
that I was getting stronger, notweaker,'cause I started to train
more, um, methodically
Kush (22:27):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (22:28):
and which I had never really done that that much.
And so I was training moremethodically, training, power,
campus boarding, stuff likethat.
And I noticed I was gettingstronger and better.
So a lot of the, a lot of italso has to do with getting
better too.
So I think that.
Yeah.
One thing I, I realized as I gotolder and then like I told you,
(22:49):
I got, I had, I started changingmy strategy and I think an
advantage of, of older athletes,depending on are, I mean, some
people figure this out whenthey're in 20 years old, but
most, most of the time not, isum, you learn more about
conserving energy.
You learn more about trainingwhat works for you, which
(23:12):
doesn't work for you.
You work on your technique, youwork, you, you have more
patience on a route
Kush (23:19):
mm-Hmm
Lee (23:19):
of figuring it out.
Whereas typically when you'reyounger, you just, just go for
it and you don't necessarilyhave necessarily a training
method or anything.
So I think that's an advantageof being older.
Older.
But at any rate.
I can, for, for whatever reason,I got better and stronger in my
fifties.
(23:40):
And so I, I would say I, Iprobably peaked at 58, 59, 60.
I was climbing my heart out butthen
Kush (23:49):
sure.
Lee (23:49):
at 60 years old or so, I was 2006 and seven, so I guess I
was 60.
I had both my hips replacedbecause severe hip arthritis,
and so didn't climb very muchfor quite a while.
Kush (24:09):
Mm-Hmm
Lee (24:10):
I did.
They, they were about sevenmonths apart.
So the first hip surgery I was,it was climbing season and I
obviously, I couldn't climb fora few months.
And the second hip.
It was ski season, so again, Icouldn't ski until months later.
But after that hip replacement,I got back at 60.
(24:31):
I was at that point, I was 61 or62.
I did a third, I did a couple 13seas after the hip surgery.
So that's the, that's thehighest grade I've done after my
hip surgeries and I, but I didnotice at 65 that I wasn't quite
as strong as I used to be.
I was still able to climb upuntil, say, see, 65.
(24:55):
I was still climbing mid fivethirteens,
Kush (24:57):
Mm-Hmm.
Lee (24:58):
it took me longer to do'em.
Kush (24:59):
Sure.
Lee (25:00):
when I hit 70, that was seven years ago, I had to have
my first back surgery.
And after that.
Kush (25:07):
Sure.
Lee (25:08):
I don't believe, I think I have not broken back into 13, 5,
13 again after 70.
So last summer when I was veryincapacitated because of my, I
had spinal stenosis, severenerve pain, down my legs.
I couldn't even walk anymore.
Kush (25:27):
Oh wow.
Lee (25:28):
Um, and I got to the point where I couldn't climb anymore,
and that's when I decided Ineeded to have surgery.
But at that point, even though Iwas fairly compromised, I was
still climbing five 12.
So that was my level when Iquit.
And my plan right now is if Ican get back into it again, I'm
hoping to be able to climb somefive twelves.
Again,
Kush (25:48):
Sure.
Lee (25:48):
I don't know about climbing harder than that, but again, my
attitude is anything's possible.
So it, I'm not gonna, h is justthe number.
You know, if you tie yourself toyour age, then you know, you're,
you're actually defeatingyourself.
Kush (26:05):
certainly.
The
Lee (26:06):
other thing, I wanted to mention that I feel like, which
is not a, not climbing per se,was I decided for my 70th
birthday, I was going, I don't,I think you know who, who
inspired me at the time was, um,Alex Honnold and, uh, oh, what's
his name?
I can't think of his name rightnow.
(26:27):
But anyway, Alex and um, andthis other guy who's very
famous, I just, his name is justescaping me right now.
Kush (26:36):
Uh, sport sport climber or track climber or Adam,
Lee (26:40):
no.
Kush (26:40):
maybe, or
Lee (26:42):
Uh, American, Tommy Caldwell.
Tommy and, Alex went down tosomewhere in South America and
did the first traverse of a veryserious traverse.
Kush (26:51):
Oh, the Fitz, uh, Fitz Traverse in Patagonia,
Lee (26:55):
And so that inspired me not to do that.
But,
Kush (26:58):
Mm
Lee (26:59):
and I also had read, um, an article about the Tetons and the
Teton Traverse.
So I decided that for my 70thbirthday, my present to myself
was gonna be, I was gonna trainthe year before to be able to do
the Teton Traverse.
So in August of, well, sevenyears ago now, I did the Teton
(27:21):
Traverse.
And I, according to the Rangers,I'm the oldest guy to have done
that.
Nobody has done my age has, and,and I was, it was harder in a
way than I thought it would be.
Well, it was very exposed andyou can't rope up for some of
these pitches.
I, we roped up for some of it.
I went with this guy that I knewwho used to be a guide up there,
(27:44):
and we did it together and itwas super exciting to be able to
do it.
Kush (27:48):
sure, sure.
That's, that's impressive.
You did many things right, Lee,obviously, you know, you were.
You were embracing, uh, cuttingedge training methods.
You were quite strategic, youknow, you were a planner with
your climbing, any things you,think you could have done
differently to make, for evenbetter outcomes?
(28:10):
Maybe it could be with yourtraining, it could be with your,
uh, with your diet perhaps, or,or anything else with your
lifestyle that could have yetbeen improved upon.
Lee (28:20):
Over what I've already been doing.
Kush (28:22):
Like if you, if you were to go back, uh, let's say 20
years, uh, 25 years, tell youryounger self, uh, that, Hey, why
don't you start doing A, B, C orstop doing X, Y, Z, what would
that have looked like?
Lee (28:39):
Well, okay.
Like I said, I didn't reallyhave much of a strategy up until
I was about 53 or 54 years old.
I just threw myself at roots.
And so, yeah, I, I think what Iwould do differently now is, is,
um, I would've trained morespecifically on my wall in my
house.
I would've probably built a, acampus board for myself.
(29:04):
'cause I think that that's verybeneficial as well as hang
boards.
But, you know, back Mm-hmm.
Well, even them when they werearound, I didn't necessarily use
them very much.
Um, I also did some stupidthings actually injured myself
pretty badly.
My finger injury from overuse,because I started, this was
(29:26):
before hang boards, I used tohang from my fingers on door
jambs with weights hanging fromme, and my hurting and I thought
that that was a good thing.
fingers were hurting well.
And then I took tons ofibuprofen on a climbing trip
that was a two week climbingtrip so that I could get through
it.
And I just figured, well, no bigdeal.
(29:46):
I'll probably be sore after theclimbing trip, but I'll probably
be fine in a couple weeks.
I was very wrong about that.
I was very injured.
It took me six months for myfingers to heal, and that was
quite a while ago.
Um, I think there's one rootedrifle that I wished I would've
stuck with.
(30:07):
I know that I it and I gave upon it, and I, I was, I wouldn't
say I was close to doing it, butI was doing well, really well on
it.
But there was, you know, if,there's one thing that always,
uh, discouraged me, it was powermoves.
So if I got shut down on a powermove and I couldn't do it, and I
(30:27):
couldn't figure it out, and evenafter I trained for it, I would
kind of give up on it.
I noticed that there were otherpeople who climb, um, similar to
me.
Not necessarily theirnecessarily better or worse or
anything.
They just stick with it.
They just figure it out continueto work on the crux.
(30:48):
And I remember that you know whoEmily Harrington is, right?
So she was working on this onement rifle, and she worked on it
for quite a while, and she hadworked it out really, really
well.
But she could never get throughthe Boulder problem at the
bottom, and neither could I.
And I had already had given upon the route a few years before
and she kept working on it,training for it.
(31:10):
She wanted to do the route andshe eventually did it.
And so that's one thing.
Even though I have a lot ofpatience, I think I should have
had more patience when it cameto powerful roots
Kush (31:24):
Got it.
Well, sure, yeah, you wereprobably still maybe in the 90th
percentile when it came topatience and persistence, but,
uh, there is always room for,uh, for more for working harder
and being, being more, uh, morepersistent.
Lee (31:41):
well, gonna say, so diet wise, I've always been very, um,
strict about my diet, so I don'tknow if I would do anything
different.
Kush (31:52):
I was about to actually, uh, ask you, uh, to kinda talk
about some things, uh, ancillaryto the actual climbing that have
helped you or hurt you.
And I wanted to ask about, uh,your diet, what's worked, what's
not worked, and then also ifyou, uh, uh, if you supplement
(32:13):
your diet with, uh, otherthings.
Lee (32:16):
I do and I have.
So I have experimented over theyears with all different type
types of diets, so here's mything about diet for one thing,
one diet does not fit everybody.
Everybody has different, uh,genetics, different things that
work for them and work don't.
So the biggest, biggest thingabout diet is to figure out what
(32:38):
works for you.
I've had some people say that ifthey eat vegan, for example.
They just feel low energy allthe time.
And I don't know whether that'spsychological or whether it's
genetic or whether it's true,you know, or, or what it is.
All I know is for me, at onepoint I was a strict food vegan
(33:02):
four years.
Kush (33:03):
Oh wow.
Oh wow.
Lee (33:05):
That's, yeah,
Kush (33:05):
For those of us who dunno, could you describe
Lee (33:08):
the, that's the most radical diet I've ever been on
is raw food.
Vegan.
For four years I did ate nocooked food, nothing but nuts,
seeds, veggies, salads,whatever.
And then I, at one point I wasjust a vegetarian.
I didn't want to eat meat.
(33:29):
Then I became a pescatarian andate fish.
I then, I married a woman who'svery much a meat eater, and then
eventually I just started eatingmeat.
And so personal experience withdiet is as, as long as you eat
well, for me anyway, it doesn'tmake any difference.
I, feel like my energy level is,fine no matter what I eat, as
(33:52):
long as I don't eat garbage orovereat.
So I also eat, I wouldn't say ahundred percent organic, but as
much as I can, I eat organic asmuch as possible.
Fruits, veggies, meat.
Um, the meat that I eat is, Iwill not eat inorganic meat.
just won't do it.
Except on very rare occasions,you know, you go out to dinner
(34:13):
somewhere at a restaurant.
I just find that, diet wise, Ijust, I make sure I eat really
well.
everybody's different again.
So like when I'm climbing, forexample, some people like to eat
a, like a lunch.
They like to eat a sandwich
Kush (34:26):
Yeah.
Lee (34:27):
and eat a big lunch.
And, um, people have asked me,well, we you doing all these
climbing, don't you feel likeyou should eat?
No, I eat a little bit.
I'll eat a a ba a bar, or somesmall bowl of fruit or something
like that.
But feel like if I eat a bigmeal or any kind of normal
lunch, like a sandwich orsomething, I can't even climb
(34:50):
anymore.
I, I can't climb hard.
It's, it just bogs me.
Kush (34:55):
Yeah.
Lee (34:56):
are different, so I don't, I wouldn't say that one.
Kush (34:58):
Yeah.
No, I think I'm the same way.
Uh, I like to graze when I'mclimbing and, uh, you know, it's
just like you, like, like littlesnacks to the day.
And, uh, I know that, uh, if Ibring a packed lunch and even if
I tell myself that I'm, I'm, I'mgonna only eat portions at a
time, I don't have anyself-control.
So if there is a, if I bring a,you know, like burrito or a
(35:22):
sandwich with me, I'm probablygonna scarf, scarf through the
whole thing and then, uh, I'llfeel like a slug for the next
few hours.
So I think, uh, I think a lot ofus would do well to subscribe by
that, uh, hey, you know, eat,healthy breakfast before you go
climbing.
And then, uh, you know, just eatenough to have to have
(35:43):
sufficient, energy outputsthrough the climbing day.
And then one can replenish,
Lee (35:49):
Well, one thing I do is pretty much routine that I do
is.
Like I told you, I don't reallyeat much in the morning, and
eventually when I do eat, I makea smoothie, so, and I put stuff
in my smoothie, so we get to thesupplementation stuff.
I put protein powder in mysmoothie.
Kush (36:09):
Mm-Hmm.
Okay.
Lee (36:10):
I'm pretty, pretty much convinced that, you know, we
need to eat protein.
Kush (36:15):
do you take like whey or, or vegan pea protein.
Lee (36:20):
I've been on using pea protein for now.
A couple years before that I wasdoing whey protein and I just
decided that I like pea proteinbetter.
and my smoothies are just fruit,some yogurt.
orange juice, frozen blueberriespineapple, that's it.
And then I add, uh, some otherpowders, glutamine for recovery.
(36:43):
I don't know how well that stuffworks really.
So I've done a lot ofexperimentation with some more
serious stuff, and I didn't findthat they did anything for me.
Kush (36:52):
when you say serious stuff, what is some of that
stuff
Lee (36:55):
Testosterone,
Kush (36:56):
Oh,
Lee (36:57):
So now the oral, but I've actually, for a brief period of
time, I was do, uh, this one,Health Professional was
convincing me that I should doinjectable testosterone.
Kush (37:09):
Why, why do you think they advised, was it like a health
condition or performance goals
Lee (37:15):
Supposedly according inject yourself to testosterone when
you get older, it keeps your, alot of things going stronger.
You libido, whatever.
But the only thing that Inoticed, which were two bad
things and nothing good, theway, I didn't get any stronger.
I was using it for a coupleyears.
(37:35):
My wife told me that I gotangrier, which was not pleasant
for her.
And the other thing thathappened, which is even worse,
is that, um, my PSA levels
Kush (37:49):
Ah, oh,
Lee (37:50):
Hmm.
Kush (37:51):
the
Lee (37:51):
prostate.specific antigen that stands for.
Prostate specific antigen.
So your PSA levels, means you,you're supposed to be typically
under four level of four.
And I went up at one point to alevel of nine and, and, the, uh,
I had to go to a urologist.
And urologist was, was tellingme that, um, I can't remember
(38:16):
what he told me I needed to do,but at the time I was thinking,
well, maybe it's thetestosterone.
So I stopped doing thetestosterone and this has
already been like a number ofyears ago and my PSA levels
dropped all the way back down tonormal.
Kush (38:31):
Oh wow.
So the testosterone, uh,contributed to the, uh, PSA
level rise.
Lee (38:36):
Yeah, I also at one point tried some HGH human growth
hormone.
Kush (38:42):
Oh, Yeah.
didn't know that was, uh, isn'tthat like a band, uh, banned
substance
Lee (38:48):
Well, it's banned for, uh, for competition athletes, but
you get a prescription for it,probably from somebody.
Kush (38:57):
Hmm.
Lee (38:58):
also some people smuggle it in from South America or
whatever.
I don't know where they get it,but, but they told me that, the
amount that I was taking was notstrong enough to really do
anything.
And, um, it's very expensive.
So injectable testosterone isnot that expensive.
HGH is very expensive.
(39:18):
So anyway, I tried that.
The other thing I've tried thata lot of people use, and again,
I don't find that it doesanything for me, matter of fact,
it has a negative effect, butsome people swear by is
creatine.
Kush (39:29):
okay.
Lee (39:30):
And so I tried that and I find it had a negative effect.
So a lot of these performanceenhancing drugs, I don't find
they do much of anything.
So I just stopped taking,
Kush (39:44):
create and, uh, seems to be widely embraced these days.
Actually, I take Creatinsometimes.
I used to lift, it's been a longtime.
Then I used to take more creatinand now I take Creatin now, and
I do know that I get slightlymore, uh, ripped when I take
Creatin, but then I stoppedtaking it and I just, yeah, I
(40:04):
think all of that water weight,uh, just kind of drains back
down.
So I, I, I can't really say ifit has performance, uh, with
climbing
Lee (40:12):
Yeah, see, I, I can't really say any of that stuff
that I've taken over the yearsand helps my performance.
The only thing I can say thatreally helps is when I keep my
weight down.
I've never had much of a weightproblem, but I do now because
after the screwed up my appetiteand I started eating.
Like I, I'm not doing it now,but I was just eating all kinds
(40:33):
of stuff.
That overdoing it.
There was good food, but justoverdoing it.
probably put on about 10 pounds.
And anyway, I have found thatover the years, that when I lose
weight, even, even three or fourpounds, I can feel the
difference in my climbing.
Kush (40:51):
sure.
Yeah, that's four pounds lessthat you have to carry up with
you.
That makes a difference.
Moving on Lee, You know, youhave dedicated, you know, the
last several decades to climbingand then also training and, uh,
fine tuning your performance.
you also maybe move to a placewhich allows you to climb very
(41:11):
consistently.
that kind of dedication, youknow, doesn't come without
sacrifice.
Anything That comes to mindwhere, uh, you know, you've made
sacrifices to allow you to, uh,pursue your goals.
Lee (41:22):
I think that about 10 or 15 years ago, and before that, I
didn't put my, Energy into, uh,fostering or, growing my
personal relationships with someof my relatives, some of my
friends, cetera.
But then about 10, 15 years agoor so, I changed, I was more
(41:45):
interested in, spending moretime with family, with friends
some other pursuits too.
Yeti Stereo Microphone (41:51):
Yes, spending time with, uh, family
and with close relations can beenormously satisfying.
Kush (42:01):
I believe, uh, you are, talented, uh, pianist.
I.
Is that one of those thingsthat, uh, you've gotten back
into?
Lee (42:08):
Yeah, I, I, I play a lot of piano.
I have a grand piano in my home.
I practice religiously.
So again, I approach the pianolike I do climbing.
I'm pretty goal oriented,probably why I, I'm somewhat
successful in what I, in thethings that I pursue.
I just apply myself however wayI can.
I have a piano instructor Sowhen I try, and again, as usual,
(42:33):
people have asked me this.
I have a piano group of friendsthat I go, that I hang out with,
and one of them recently askedme, like, Lee, why do you always
pick these really ridiculouslyhard pieces?
I go, well, I, I guess'cause I'mgoal oriented.
I mean, I, I, I say, why can't Iplay like, the professionals I
have compromised hands.
(42:53):
I've got arthritis in myfingers.
I've got, um, a condition, whichI'm thinking about right now
because of my back surgery.
I don't wanna deal with it, butI have, uh, what a condition
called dupuytren in my hands,which cause my fingers, one of
my fingers to curl in, which isnot very good for playing piano,
(43:14):
but I work around it.
Kush (43:15):
sure.
Lee (43:16):
yeah, I like the challenge of picking up, playing really
hard pieces I got really bad,uh, inside te elbow tendonitis
for a while and everybody givingme all these methods for trying
to get rid of using rubber bandsand using these various,
physical therapy type things andnothing really worked.
(43:37):
And then I got a grand piano andI noticed after playing for
about a month,
Kush (43:42):
Mm-Hmm.
Lee (43:42):
tendonitis went away.
And I like, wait, how did thathappen?
you think about it, a piano,you're doing antagonistic
movements all the time.
You're picking up your fingersthen you play piano.
And I got, was really into it.
I practiced for an hour to twohours a day, and then I noticed
after a month that my old batonjust went away.
And ever since, never came back.
Kush (44:05):
That's crazy.
let's say very, very cuttingedge.
left field, uh, finger rehabexercise.
Lee, in the last, uh, severalyears, has there been any kind
of new belief or behavior thathas, uh.
Or habit that has improved yourlife?
Anything outside of what we'vetalked about already?
Lee (44:23):
I can't say that I've mastered it or anything, but I
think I'm learning is the, uh,ideology of acceptance.
I have to accept certain things.
part of me, of course, as wediscussed, is that age is just a
number.
Um, you never know how well youcan do if you don't really apply
yourself, but sometimes you justhave to accept.
(44:45):
I have to accept that at thispoint in my climbing career, for
example, I'm never gonna climb afive 14 again.
Now, I wouldn't rule it out, butI would say it's, it's ruled
out.
I have to accept certain things,there's a fine line between
acceptance where you are, butit's the same time
non-acceptance.
I don't know if that makes anysense.
Kush (45:06):
No, I get it.
It's, it's, uh, it's acceptance,but you are not resigned to it.
you will accept the outcome, butyou will keep fighting against
it.
Lee (45:15):
right.
But it's, at some point youcan't fight to the point where
you're gonna hurt yourselfeither mentally or physically.
I've been working on that.
But also the thing that I'd saythat I've done, now that I think
about it, Up until, I would saymaybe like, you're probably
right in the last seven years,eight years, something like
that.
Maybe 10 I focus more on, onflexibility physical therapy.
(45:39):
I mean, I used to just like,don't mean to stretch that much.
I, I'm fine no, I'm not fine.
flexibility's important.
I work with a physical trainer,not just physical therapy, but I
have a, a woman here who has a,who's a dear friend of mine and
she has an athletic trainingfacility.
And over the years I've beenworking with her.
(45:59):
She's a physical trainer.
I've realized that, a lot ofpeople that get older realize
that they're losing someflexibility or maybe they need
to put more energy into their,uh, ability to, bend, to move,
to move more efficiently,
Kush (46:15):
I am doing that now, like mobility training and all the
physio and honestly, uh, It camenon-optional, where, simple
movements, uh, which one tookfor granted, you know, even 10
years ago in my mid thirties,early thirties, you know, were
not that simple anymore.
I think all of us should bedoing mobility work, and the
sooner we do it, the better.
(46:35):
And seeking out specialists whoactually can, analyze our
movements, our anatomy andprescribe, a plan to, uh, work
on our weakest links.
Badass.
never too late to, uh, startmobility.
I, I, I keep telling my mom thatmy mom is, uh, a couple of years
shy of you and, uh, I'm like,mom, you know, if you don't do
these mobility things now,they're gonna be, limiting your
(46:57):
lifestyle very soon.
you know, whether it's, climbinggoals or it's just simple
lifestyle goals, I thinkmobility and, and, uh,
physiotherapy, uh, is socritical to, uh, maintaining a
quality of life.
we are nearing the end of atime.
Just some fun questions.
what's the best gift that youhave received The best gift that
you have, you have given
Lee (47:17):
I don't know if it's a gift, but I think the best gift
I've received is, uh, my spouse,my wife, for many, many years.
I felt like I never really met awoman who I really wanted to
spend that much time with.
I.
And when I met her it justclicked.
And I think that was a, that's agift from, from the world.
The best gift I've ever given, Ithink was, at least most people
(47:41):
have told me that.
my mom is no longer with us, buttaking care of my mom when she
needed me.
I moved her up here with me Ibuilt an add-on apartment for
her on my house.
that was my gift to her to livewith me.
I took care of her for a yearand a half.
Kush (47:58):
life-changing gift.
Are you like a book readerwatch, TV or, uh.
Things on the, uh, internet, ifyou read books, uh, curious.
Any, any good book that you haveread recently or are reading
Lee (48:10):
up until about, oh, I don't know, probably 10 years ago or
maybe 15, I didn't read hardlyany books or anything.
I was addicted to doingcrossword puzzles and I would
read climbing magazine, rockingIce Magazine, more or less keep
up with politics, And thenstarting at about 15 years ago,
I started reading I've been anavid reader ever since.
(48:32):
And so I read, read a lot ofbooks.
Kush (48:35):
Okay.
any good book you wouldrecommend, uh, to the listeners?
Lee (48:39):
I'm attracted to nonfiction and political books or other
that are real.
I don't, I don't like fictionparticularly, unless it's
historical novels or somethinglike that.
So one very interesting bookthat I just read, which is a
brand new book pretty much thatcame out, was a book called Oath
(49:01):
and Honor by Liz Cheney.
Kush (49:03):
Oh, oh, I heard about that book Yes.
Liz Cheney's
Lee (49:06):
And she was right there in the insurrection on January 6th.
and what she has to say.
It was a, it's a remarkablebook.
So I, if you're into that sortof thing, I would highly
recommend that book.
The other book that I readrecently that was, recommended
to me, which has nothing to dowith politics, and actually it
was Michael Kennedy.
You know who Michael Kennedy is.
Kush (49:28):
I think so.
Lee (49:29):
So anyway, Michael lives here.
used to own, climbing magazineyears ago.
Anyway, he lives here he's agood friend of mine.
he recommended the book thatKatie Brown wrote.
Kush (49:42):
Yeah, I didn't read the book, but I remember hearing
Katie Brown It talks about herlike Christian upbringing and,
uh, all those things.
Lee (49:52):
the big, thing she talks about is the relationship she
had with her mother and climbingand how badly she felt about
herself and how conflicted shewas during her upbringing, which
she felt was very unhealthy.
And what's interesting about thebook is she really, really bears
her soul in this book.
(50:14):
And she's very, I have met heronce and other people that have
have met her said the samething, that she's very shy, she
doesn't feel comfortable talkingmuch about a life in public.
Yet she felt extremelycomfortable talking about
herself in depth book.
And so I, I read that about amonth ago, and that was a very,
(50:36):
very interesting book.
Kush (50:37):
I think when I first, uh, heard, heard about that book,
made a mental note and, uh,thanks for the reminder.
yeah, Liz Cheney's book andKatie Brown's book, uh, I mean,
Katie Brown.
I remember when I first went tothe Red, you know, Katie Brown,
uh, was famous because, uh, shehad done like the youngest, uh,
fa of, uh, youngest onsite of afive as a female, or the only on
(50:59):
site, which then got downgraded,but I think, yeah, she was the
only female to have onsighted atthat grade.
Lee (51:05):
Omaha Beach is the route, actually worked on that route a
little bit at the mother, Lord.
Kush (51:11):
Okay.
Lee (51:12):
Yeah, but the problem was is that the weather was not
conducive and I felt like Ididn't wanna spend my entire
vacation trying to do this oneroute that was far away from
where I lived.
but I'm actually astounded thatshe unsighted that route.
Kush (51:29):
Yeah.
And Lee, final question.
If there was a giganticbillboard where could add any
message that you wanted, whatwould you say on that message
for others?
Lee (51:43):
Okay.
Well this is getting to be alittle bit political, if that's
okay.
Kush (51:48):
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Say whatever you want.
Lee (51:50):
Um, our home is in danger.
Kush (51:53):
Home is in Okay.
The earth is in danger.
Lee (51:57):
It is actually, the earth is not in danger.
We're in danger It's a bookabout why civilizations fail.
Kush (52:04):
Okay.
It's a, I, I think I might haveread that book.
It's a, it's a, it's a bit of aheavy It's a long book.
Lee (52:12):
that's right.
Kush (52:13):
Yeah.
I read that a decade ago
Lee (52:15):
collapse, I think.
Is that the name of the book?
I think it's collapse.
So it's all about how culturescollapse and why they collapse.
the book outlines five reasonsand almost all cultures, if you
violate like three of thosereasons or more you will not
prevail.
However, I would say the messageon the billboard would have to
(52:38):
be something to the effect of weneed to support leaders, we need
to support things and changingour lives however we can do.
That will accept the science ofglobal climate change.
Kush (52:54):
Sure.
Lee, it's been a fantasticconversation.
I know the weekend is calling.
I don't want to keep you, uh,any longer.
But, uh, thanks so much for, uh,coming on today.
And, uh, you know, you inspireus, you inspire me.
Lee (53:10):
appreciate it Thank you.
Yeti Stereo Microphone-3 (53:13):
As we wrap up this awe inspiring
episode with Lee, I can'tpredict if he will conquer
another 514, but one thing's forsure, he'll keep setting those
sky high goals and craftingplans with grit and
determination.
Age or injuries, these are justnumbers to Lee.
He stays endlessly curious,going climbing with the gusto of
(53:37):
a teenager, all while jugglingother hobbies that feed his
thirst for progress.
Reflecting on Lee's journey, Isee a mirror image of myself.
Beyond the sheer thrill ofpushing my limits and climbing,
there is a yearning for thatelusive state of flow and
constant growth.
I often don't like to try hard,but when I find that perfect
(54:01):
activity and give it my best,the rewards are nothing short of
astonishing and deeplysatisfying.
Huge thanks for tuning in,friends.
Share the ageless vibes with abuddy.
And until our next adventuretogether, stay ageless, stay
adventurous.
Friends, welcome back to the Ageless
Athlete Podcast, where weuncover stories and tease out
secrets of badass athletes in aquest to stay ageless.
Yeti Stereo Microphone-2 (00:11):
I'm your host, Kush Khandelwal,
bringing you the energy from mymission district bunker in San
Francisco.
Huge shout out to our listeners.
You rock.
Today, brace yourself for a veryspecial guest.
A dynamo of will and tenacity,Lee Sheftal is 77 and has been
crushing it since forever.
(00:33):
Climbing 514 at 59.
Conquering the Grand TetonTraverse at 70.
Lee's rewriting the book onaging gracefully.
But here's the kicker.
He's not just a climbingsensation.
Lee spills the beans on hissecret training sauce.
From biohacking his diet toexperimenting with performance
(00:55):
enhancers.
Oh, and did I mention he's apiano virtuoso too?
So get ready for a great episodepacked with inspiration,
perspiration, and a fewsurprises.
Let's roll! And hey, if you'revibing with the energy, share it
with a friend who needs a doseof this awesomeness.
kush_1_01-19-2024_140604 (01:17):
Hi, Lee.
it's a pleasure to connect,
Kush (01:20):
quick intros.
I am in San Francisco thisafternoon.
Uh, where are you located?
Lee (01:26):
Carbondale, Colorado.
Kush (01:28):
Excellent.
right in, uh, the middle of,fantastic, rock climbing and,
and the outdoors, in theRockies.
Would love to kick off with a,quick intro.
Where did you grow up?
what do you do?
How old are you?
and what did you have forbreakfast today?
Lee (01:47):
so I'll start with the breakfast.
I typically don't eat breakfast.
I eat, well, kind of, I kind ofeat a, I guess you could call it
a brunch because, I pretty muchadhere to intermittent fasting,
keep my weight down so I don'teat for at least 15 hours after
I eat dinner.
So that means that I don't starteating until around, the
(02:07):
earliest I'll ever eat is around10 30 or 11 o'clock in the
morning.
I grew up in Long Island, NewYork, a town called Roslyn.
throughout my teenage years Iwas into sports, but I had no
idea what climbing was oranything about climbing.
I was into football, baseball,pretty much every sport that was
available at the time.
(02:28):
I did like the outdoors.
I went to camp for about fouryears.
Where I did a lot of outdooractivities.
my profession wasn't alwaysthis, but it has been for about
40, let me think, since 1980, soabout 45 years, I've been a, uh,
a tax tax professional.
I do income taxes for a living.
Kush (02:49):
Great.
Uh, and how old are you?
Uh, Lee?
Lee (02:53):
I am 77 years old right now.
Kush (02:55):
Great.
Uh, seven, seven years young.
Lee (02:58):
Hmm.
Kush (02:58):
Thanks for the background, uh, to add to it.
Uh, what's your, uh, backgroundwith, sports where did you
begin?
Rock climbing.
Lee (03:08):
Let's see.
I would say that I be, becamevery attracted to the outdoors
almost immediately after I gotout of college.
So that would've been back in1968.
And so from 1968 until about1978, I predominantly hiked,
well, hiking.
(03:29):
I did some sort of like, uh,scrambling, mountaineering type
of stuff, but nothing with ropesor anything like that.
And I got introduced to rockclimbing in around 1978.
the reason why I got into it,actually is very interesting
because at my time, my, mygirlfriend at the time, uh, we
were taking a four month trip inmy, uh, camper, and
Kush (03:54):
Hmm.
Lee (03:54):
we were in Boulder.
And we decided to climb it.
Climb up the flat irons, oractually on the side of the flat
irons.
And I ended up just me, but nother.
I wandered out on, on one of theflat irons, I think it was the
first flat iron.
I just wandered out on the face.
I don't know why I even did.
I did that.
I just started.
(04:15):
Next thing I knew, I wasactually in fifth class climbing
and I didn't know how climbreally.
And it was probably, I'mguessing about 5, 6, 5 7
climbing, and I was terrifiedand I thought I was gonna die.
Kush (04:32):
if you live in Boulder, that's like a popular, uh, the
Flat Irons, I think at least oneof the scrambles on it is, uh,
often done, uh, free solo style.
Like people don't use ropes andit's like a kind of a fun
activity these days.
Lee (04:47):
I, I noticed some people later that day that were rope
climbing.
I think they were being guidedand I was like, oh, it's
interesting.
People use ropes.
but anyway, after I managedobviously not to die and got off
that first flat iron, I decidedthat that was, I liked the idea
of climbing, but I don't wannaever do that again.
(05:07):
So I hired a 18-year-old kidthat a friend of mine told me
about to teach me.
can't remember his name,
Kush (05:15):
Okay.
Lee (05:16):
it's been too long ago.
Anyway, he took me out climbingin Santa Barbara and.
He taught me how to, you know,how to tie into a rope and how
to climb.
And I think we did top roping.
And at the end of the day, heasked me, so what do I think?
I said, I, I don't know wherethis is, has been all my life.
Kush (05:34):
Mm-Hmm,
Lee (05:35):
So at that point on, I pursued the sport, fairly
religiously.
Kush (05:40):
sure, sounds like there was some, uh, fascination, some
fear, some intrigue the firsttime you, uh, you began the
sport.
But I think, uh, soon after,maybe like the rest of us, uh,
became an enduring obsession.
I guess, uh, 35 odd years later,you're still, climbing.
(06:04):
I wanna talk a little bit aboutyour, uh, your history with
climbing.
And one thing I wanna, point outis, uh, you climbed, you know,
the lofty grade of, uh, five 14,I think at the age of, uh, 59 or
so.
do you think you still might bethe, uh, the oldest person to
(06:25):
have climbed, uh, this grade Andthen also to a non climber?
Uh, how would you describe, likethe five 14 grade?
Maybe to somebody whounderstands running or a
different sport.
Uh, how difficult of a grade isfive 14
Lee (06:41):
well, you know, I mean, these days, uh.
Uh, five 14 is not that an ammathat amazing of a grade because
people now for the last 15, 20years have been just training in
gyms and, um, I mean, there weregyms back when I did it when I
was 59, but that was 18 yearsago, and the training methods
(07:02):
were not as sophisticatedeither, and people weren't
starting as young either.
So, you know, five 14 is, is a,a hard grade.
It's hard for most people for99.9% of the climbers out there.
but there's different types.
So probably just like there'sdifferent type of races for
(07:23):
runners, for example, climbing.
a particular grade like five 14or any grade for that matter,
can be very power oriented, canbe really short.
I've tried a number of them.
Kush (07:35):
mm-Hmm
Lee (07:36):
back in New Mexico, I actually got on five 14 and, um,
it was so short and so powerfulthat there was no way I could do
the moves.
There wasn't even, I couldn't, Irealized that if I was gonna do
a five 14 or, or any, anything,or even five thirteens, that
they're gonna have to beoriented, which is what my
strength has always been.
Is endurance climbing, notnecessarily power climbing.
Kush (07:59):
For sure.
I understand that.
Uh, you also ran quite a bit orwere a runner, so to speak.
Before, uh, you begun climbing.
Did you also run with the sameaplomb and then did you, did you
continue running?
I entered
Lee (08:19):
some competitions, but I've never been very good at it.
I'm, or very fast.
Anyway, so basically.
Uh, almost my entire time I wasa runner.
I did it for, for being fit andrecreational and I enjoyed
running in the mountains.
yeah, but I, didn't reallycompete that much.
Kush (08:38):
Sure.
going back to, uh, some of themilestones and climbing that
you, take some pride and, uh,would love to hear about maybe
some things you, uh, thatbrought you, uh, you know, a
sense of accomplishment thatalso took you, uh, a lot of hard
work
Lee (08:54):
when I started to really get into climbing, back when I,
even when I was in Santa Fe, I.
Which has been 25 years sinceI've been there.
And I lived in this house therefor five years.
So starting 30 years ago, I'vealways had a home wall.
I And then when I moved toCarbondale, the first thing I
did was build a, a climbing wallin my garage.
(09:16):
Especially then, including now,there wasn't any training
facilities actually back then.
There weren't any.
So, um, I had to make my owntraining facility or I had to go
outside and climb.
And yes, I put in a lot, a lotof hard training and hard work
Kush (09:35):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (09:36):
accomplish my goals.
And I, you know, I would trainspecifically to do certain
routes in a specific way.
over the years I have had.
a couple of coaches.
Yeti Stereo Microphone-5 (09:47):
Having a home facility and indoor
climbing wall right in yourgarage, I would have to concur
can be an absolute game changer.
One day, I would love to haveone.
Also.
Any other accomplishments thatyou are proud of?
Flea besides obviously sendingthe, uh, greater five 14.
Lee (10:10):
Well, there's a lot of roots and rifle that I found to
be quite challenging, actually,probably the hardest, effort
that I've ever put into a route.
Mostly because I was not veryexperienced at the grade, at the
time.
So my first 13 D route.
Kush (10:26):
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Lee (10:28):
at that point I had only done 13 C I've done, at that
point, I think I had alreadyclimbed maybe two 13 Cs, maybe
three, I can't remember.
those didn't really take me thatlong to do.
Kush (10:42):
Mm-Hmm.
Lee (10:42):
Um.
I mean, actually it turns outthat in Rifle, some of the 13
Bs, B as in boy, took me longerthan the 13 Cs.
I've always told that to a lotof people,
Kush (10:53):
Hmm.
Lee (10:53):
just probably'cause of the
Kush (10:54):
Hmm.
Lee (10:55):
climbing.
But anyway, this first 13 D thatI tried in, um, rifle or
anywhere is called the Bride ofFrankenstein.
And it's fairly short.
It's not super long, but itattracted me because it's, I
could do all the moves prettyquickly and the challenge is
(11:15):
putting'em all together.
And the problem that I had withthat route is that I tell
everybody that I had zerostrategy.
I didn't really have a strategy,I just started getting on the
route, seeing how well they did.
So I'm guessing I probably havethe world's record for how many
times I could.
One, fall the route and stillnot have done it.
(11:38):
So what I was doing is warmingup on the exactly the same
roots.
It didn't matter how I felt.
It didn't matter what theweather was like.
Kush (11:47):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (11:47):
it could be really hot.
It could be really cold.
It didn't make any difference.
I did the exact same warmups andI go to the root and I tried it
two or three times in a day.
well, I wasn't getting anywhere.
I just kept one falling theroute and not getting anywhere.
And finally it dawned on me thatI ever wanna send this route, I
need to come up with a strategy.
So that's what I did.
Kush (12:08):
Sure.
Lee (12:09):
So what I did was, is I put up a route in my garage that was
similar, but not, and I toldmyself that until I can do this
route in my garage, which ispretty hard, it's a hard route.
I finally did it and then Isaid, now I have to do it at
least three times with only afive minute rest in between,
Kush (12:29):
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm
Lee (12:30):
and I will not get back on the real route that I'm trying
to do on the BRI
Kush (12:34):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (12:35):
until I accomplish that.
So I finally accomplished thatand I went back on the route,
and the second day I got back onthe route I did it.
I learned that I need to have astrategy
Kush (12:44):
Sure.
your replica training, uh, paidoff
Lee (12:48):
Well, so I also did a similar strategy.
I had a different strategy for,I mean, some people think this
route is 14 a also in rifle.
I mean, a lot of these route inrifle that are rated, I mean, a
lot of people think they'reprobably not somewhere else in
the world, 14 a Anyway.
But the hardest route I ever didis,
Kush (13:06):
isn't rifle, uh, rifle, like known as the land of, uh,
13 Ds.
You know that these rods that,that should have been, uh,
upgraded to 14 a are aresandbagged and are stuck at that
13 D grade.
Lee (13:20):
That's 13 d and that's the hardest route I have done in
rifle.
Kush (13:24):
Yeah, no, I, I can see that, uh, you are a, a
strategist and I think withclimbing, you know, people are
Yeti Stereo Microphone (13:32):
Famously lackadaisical.
Kush (13:34):
about their approach.
And, uh, people will say, Hey,you know, I'm just gonna get on
this route and I will try, try,try it until I send it.
But I think, um, I think you arethe contrarian, which is, Hey,
this is the, uh, this is theamount of time I'm gonna give
myself, and I'm gonna preparemyself with all of this training
(13:56):
so that when I actually get backon this route, I actually have a
reasonable chance of meeting myobjective.
Lee (14:02):
Well, I felt completely different after that, that that
training that I did getting morepower because this one crux that
I had a hard time with before.
On the first seven sessions orso, I'd get on that route.
I get up to the crux and even onthe dog,
Kush (14:19):
Mm-Hmm
Lee (14:20):
maybe I could do that.
Those that move one outta threetimes, that's not a good because
considering that it's probablymid five 13 just to get to that
move and there is any reallygreat rest right before it.
So I realized that helped mypower.
But when I got back on the routeafter training for it, I knew
(14:40):
right away I could, I can dothis route because it felt
completely different.
Kush (14:45):
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The before and after effect,pre-training to, uh, to
post-training.
Uh.
That's great.
Uh, uh, yeah, that's, that'sgreat summation.
I am, uh, I'm curious, uh, Lee,you know, you were, uh,
embarking to try these, uh, hardroots and, you know, you have
(15:07):
some of these first to yourname.
Were there naysayers?
I'm sure there were, you know,there were probably people who,
who thought that, you know, youcould not be climbing this hard,
or maybe there wasn't actually aprecedent of people in their
fifties, you know, sendingthirties and five fourteens.
So wondering if there wassomething, some kind of like
(15:28):
belief you had, uh, someconviction that, uh, you know, I
don't care, uh, what otherpeople are saying, or, or if
there isn't like a, uh, aprecedent here, I believe in
myself and I know that I canachieve, uh, some of these, uh.
Uh, climbing goals even if theyhaven't been done
Lee (15:47):
mean about my age?
Kush (15:48):
Yeah.
Lee (15:50):
Well, okay, so I was a late starter.
I didn't even start climbinguntil I was 33 years old.
So, and I didn't really thinkabout age until I got close to
50.
So probably around your age.
And I was like, okay, here I am.
I'm getting close to 50.
I wonder if all of a sudden I'mnot gonna be able to climb hard
anymore.
(16:10):
So those things, those thoughtsdid occur to me.
at the time, I didn't haveanybody to look up to that were,
that was older than me, that wasclimbing as hard as I was
claiming.
But I decided that, well, let's,I don't, I'm not, why don't I
just not think about my age?
(16:31):
Who knows what's possible?
Let's see what happens.
Well, soon as I turned 50 andinto my fifties, I noticed that
probably because I didn't startuntil I was 33.
And then I, you know, I hadn'treally trained very much.
I just climbed.
So I was just a, I was not asport climber until I was about,
oh God, let me think.
(16:53):
That was like the mid eighties.
So,
Kush (16:56):
Mm-Hmm
Lee (16:56):
so I'd only been climbing for about seven years, or eight
years when I started
Kush (17:00):
mm-Hmm mm-Hmm
Lee (17:02):
I was only 40, 41.
Before that, I was doing nothingbut track climbing.
So, you know, I did a lot oftrad climbing maybe that what
might, might have helped me, inthe future for sport climbing is
that when I went tra climbing,you know, the, the, the
conventional wisdom was that youdon't fall all
Kush (17:24):
Yeah.
Lee (17:24):
especially on bolts, because back then the bolts were
not reliable.
There were, star drills.
There wasn't, you know, therewere shitty bolts.
And so when sport climbing camearound.
I, that's made sure that itdidn't fall.
Whenever I was track climbing, Idid some big, pretty big track
climbs, climbed El Cap, I'vethen the west face of El Cap.
(17:47):
I climbed the rostrum, I climbedAstro Man, did all these long
tra climb.
I built up a lot of endurance.
And then, then when I firststarted sport climbing, I was
afraid to fall even on the,obviously the same bolts.
And my a really good friend ofmine, used to make fun of me all
(18:07):
the time.
Used to go, I used to say, well,fell there and go, no, you
didn't.
You, you not, I've never seenyou fall, Lee.
You just, you just take, and soI would battle the pump as hard
as I could, and I think thathelped me build endurance.
And then finally I got over the,obviously the fear of falling on
bolts.
And so.
(18:29):
Back in the mid eighties andlate eighties, that's when I
really got into sport climbing'cause it also fit my lifestyle
better.
'cause that's when I started my,I started my business.
This, this that I have now thatI still do
Kush (18:42):
Yeah.
Lee (18:43):
It required me to be around and I couldn't go traveling all
over the place and doing thesetra climbs and be, you know, I
wanted to build up my, mybusiness.
So sport climbing came along andthat just fit my lifestyle at
that time.
Kush (18:58):
Lee, uh, it's funny, uh, you know, you started tra and
went to sport.
I started climbing sport back inthe East coast, you know, at
the, uh, at the New River Gorgeand the Red River Gorge.
So when I came to,
Lee (19:13):
I love the Red River Gorge.
I have been to the Red RiverGorge at least 15 times
Kush (19:19):
Sure.
No, I, I don't think anybody,uh, even the most, uh, you know,
died in the world.
Track climbers will go to thered and, and not love the red.
It's just, uh, it's such a.
Such a playground.
So I started climbing and when Icame to California I was maybe,
uh, you know, extremely stokedon sport climbing, and then came
to San Francisco and the bestkind of climbing was trad.
(19:41):
So I was a reluctant, uh, traclimber.
And I've done like some of theroutes that you just mentioned,
and I had the opposite problemwhere I got so used to, uh, you
know, falling on bolts that whenI got to tra I had a hard time,
um, not taking the sameapproach, which is like I would
take falls on, on gear.
(20:02):
And as a, as a new learner, Ithink that sometimes terrified
my partners where, uh, insteadof hanging on, hanging on gear
and, sorry.
Lee (20:10):
have any gear pull on you?
Kush (20:12):
I have, you know, when I first started, I did have a big
fall before I even learnedbefore I, I made some really
bad, uh, gumby mistakes before Ieven learned to place, uh, gear
properly.
Uh, uh, I did have a, uh, like akind of, uh, a dramatic
accident, which I came outfairly un skated.
Once that happened, I, I wentback to the books and, uh,
(20:35):
learned how to basically climbtro in a safe, proper way.
And since then, I don't think Ireally had any, um, any gear
come off.
Uh, and I think I also became alittle bit more careful about
not always, uh, you know,whipping, uh, on, on gear.
But, uh, I don't think I haveever had, uh, any, uh,
(20:56):
significant, uh, gear.
But, uh, coming back to, comingback to you, just continuing on
the, the climbing trajectory.
So you were climbing maybe atyour physical best, let's say,
uh, upper fifties maybe now, uh,over the last, uh, let's say two
decades and leading up to now.
So today, so to speak, what'syour level of, uh, level of
(21:19):
climbing and how do you train?
Lee (21:21):
Okay, so my level of climbing right now is none.
And the reason for that is, isbecause as a lot of people that
I know me, um, about a littleover two months ago, I, I needed
to have major back surgery.
Kush (21:35):
Oh.
Lee (21:36):
I am still in the recovery process.
It's been, let me see what is,today is the 19th, so I had
November 7th I had my surgery.
So I'm about almost two and ahalf months out.
I have a follow up in about twoand a half weeks.
I.
With
Kush (21:56):
Okay.
Lee (21:56):
office.
And at that point I'm hopingthat they'll give me the go
ahead to start training againfor climbing back on the age
thing.
To give you a little more of ahistory is that when I thought I
was gonna get weaker at 50 andright at that time period,
that's when I moved up here upto Carbondale.
(22:17):
Actually a couple of that, Ithink I was 53 and I noticed
that I was getting stronger, notweaker,'cause I started to train
more, um, methodically
Kush (22:27):
mm-Hmm.
Lee (22:28):
and which I had never really done that that much.
And so I was training moremethodically, training, power,
campus boarding, stuff likethat.
And I noticed I was gettingstronger and better.
So a lot of the, a lot of italso has to do with getting
better too.
So I think that.
Yeah.
One thing I, I realized as I gotolder and then like I told you,
(22:49):
I got, I had, I started changingmy strategy and I think an
advantage of, of older athletes,depending on are, I mean, some
people figure this out whenthey're in 20 years old, but
most, most of the time not, isum, you learn more about
conserving energy.
You learn more about trainingwhat works for you, which
(23:12):
doesn't work for you.
You work on your technique, youwork, you, you have more
patience on a route
Kush (23:19):
mm-Hmm
Lee (23:19):
of figuring it out.
Whereas typically when you'reyounger, you just, just go for
it and you don't necessarilyhave necessarily a training
method or anything.
So I think that's an advantageof being older.
Older.
But at any rate.
I can, for, for whatever reason,I got better and stronger in my
fifties.
(23:40):
And so I, I would say I, Iprobably peaked at 58, 59, 60.
I was climbing my heart out butthen
Kush (23:49):
sure.
Lee (23:49):
at 60 years old or so, I was 2006 and seven, so I guess I
was 60.
I had both my hips replacedbecause severe hip arthritis,
and so didn't climb very muchfor quite a while.
Kush (24:09):
Mm-Hmm
Lee (24:10):
I did.
They, they were about sevenmonths apart.
So the first hip surgery I was,it was climbing season and I
obviously, I couldn't climb fora few months.
And the second hip.
It was ski season, so again, Icouldn't ski until months later.
But after that hip replacement,I got back at 60.
(24:31):
I was at that point, I was 61 or62.
I did a third, I did a couple 13seas after the hip surgery.
So that's the, that's thehighest grade I've done after my
hip surgeries and I, but I didnotice at 65 that I wasn't quite
as strong as I used to be.
I was still able to climb upuntil, say, see, 65.
(24:55):
I was still climbing mid fivethirteens,
Kush (24:57):
Mm-Hmm.
Lee (24:58):
it took me longer to do'em.
Kush (24:59):
Sure.
Lee (25:00):
when I hit 70, that was seven years ago, I had to have
my first back surgery.
And after that.
Kush (25:07):
Sure.
Lee (25:08):
I don't believe, I think I have not broken back into 13, 5,
13 again after 70.
So last summer when I was veryincapacitated because of my, I
had spinal stenosis, severenerve pain, down my legs.
I couldn't even walk anymore.
Kush (25:27):
Oh wow.
Lee (25:28):
Um, and I got to the point where I couldn't climb anymore,
and that's when I decided Ineeded to have surgery.
But at that point, even though Iwas fairly compromised, I was
still climbing five 12.
So that was my level when Iquit.
And my plan right now is if Ican get back into it again, I'm
hoping to be able to climb somefive twelves.
Again,
Kush (25:48):
Sure.
Lee (25:48):
I don't know about climbing harder than that, but again, my
attitude is anything's possible.
So it, I'm not gonna, h is justthe number.
You know, if you tie yourself toyour age, then you know, you're,
you're actually defeatingyourself.
Kush (26:05):
certainly.
The
Lee (26:06):
other thing, I wanted to mention that I feel like, which
is not a, not climbing per se,was I decided for my 70th
birthday, I was going, I don't,I think you know who, who
inspired me at the time was, um,Alex Honnold and, uh, oh, what's
his name?
I can't think of his name rightnow.
(26:27):
But anyway, Alex and um, andthis other guy who's very
famous, I just, his name is justescaping me right now.
Kush (26:36):
Uh, sport sport climber or track climber or Adam,
Lee (26:40):
no.
Kush (26:40):
maybe, or
Lee (26:42):
Uh, American, Tommy Caldwell.
Tommy and, Alex went down tosomewhere in South America and
did the first traverse of a veryserious traverse.
Kush (26:51):
Oh, the Fitz, uh, Fitz Traverse in Patagonia,
Lee (26:55):
And so that inspired me not to do that.
But,
Kush (26:58):
Mm
Lee (26:59):
and I also had read, um, an article about the Tetons and the
Teton Traverse.
So I decided that for my 70thbirthday, my present to myself
was gonna be, I was gonna trainthe year before to be able to do
the Teton Traverse.
So in August of, well, sevenyears ago now, I did the Teton
(27:21):
Traverse.
And I, according to the Rangers,I'm the oldest guy to have done
that.
Nobody has done my age has, and,and I was, it was harder in a
way than I thought it would be.
Well, it was very exposed andyou can't rope up for some of
these pitches.
I, we roped up for some of it.
I went with this guy that I knewwho used to be a guide up there,
(27:44):
and we did it together and itwas super exciting to be able to
do it.
Kush (27:48):
sure, sure.
That's, that's impressive.
You did many things right, Lee,obviously, you know, you were.
You were embracing, uh, cuttingedge training methods.
You were quite strategic, youknow, you were a planner with
your climbing, any things you,think you could have done
differently to make, for evenbetter outcomes?
(28:10):
Maybe it could be with yourtraining, it could be with your,
uh, with your diet perhaps, or,or anything else with your
lifestyle that could have yetbeen improved upon.
Lee (28:20):
Over what I've already been doing.
Kush (28:22):
Like if you, if you were to go back, uh, let's say 20
years, uh, 25 years, tell youryounger self, uh, that, Hey, why
don't you start doing A, B, C orstop doing X, Y, Z, what would
that have looked like?
Lee (28:39):
Well, okay.
Like I said, I didn't reallyhave much of a strategy up until
I was about 53 or 54 years old.
I just threw myself at roots.
And so, yeah, I, I think what Iwould do differently now is, is,
um, I would've trained morespecifically on my wall in my
house.
I would've probably built a, acampus board for myself.
(29:04):
'cause I think that that's verybeneficial as well as hang
boards.
But, you know, back Mm-hmm.
Well, even them when they werearound, I didn't necessarily use
them very much.
Um, I also did some stupidthings actually injured myself
pretty badly.
My finger injury from overuse,because I started, this was
(29:26):
before hang boards, I used tohang from my fingers on door
jambs with weights hanging fromme, and my hurting and I thought
that that was a good thing.
fingers were hurting well.
And then I took tons ofibuprofen on a climbing trip
that was a two week climbingtrip so that I could get through
it.
And I just figured, well, no bigdeal.
(29:46):
I'll probably be sore after theclimbing trip, but I'll probably
be fine in a couple weeks.
I was very wrong about that.
I was very injured.
It took me six months for myfingers to heal, and that was
quite a while ago.
Um, I think there's one rootedrifle that I wished I would've
stuck with.
(30:07):
I know that I it and I gave upon it, and I, I was, I wouldn't
say I was close to doing it, butI was doing well, really well on
it.
But there was, you know, if,there's one thing that always,
uh, discouraged me, it was powermoves.
So if I got shut down on a powermove and I couldn't do it, and I
(30:27):
couldn't figure it out, and evenafter I trained for it, I would
kind of give up on it.
I noticed that there were otherpeople who climb, um, similar to
me.
Not necessarily theirnecessarily better or worse or
anything.
They just stick with it.
They just figure it out continueto work on the crux.
(30:48):
And I remember that you know whoEmily Harrington is, right?
So she was working on this onement rifle, and she worked on it
for quite a while, and she hadworked it out really, really
well.
But she could never get throughthe Boulder problem at the
bottom, and neither could I.
And I had already had given upon the route a few years before
and she kept working on it,training for it.
(31:10):
She wanted to do the route andshe eventually did it.
And so that's one thing.
Even though I have a lot ofpatience, I think I should have
had more patience when it cameto powerful roots
Kush (31:24):
Got it.
Well, sure, yeah, you wereprobably still maybe in the 90th
percentile when it came topatience and persistence, but,
uh, there is always room for,uh, for more for working harder
and being, being more, uh, morepersistent.
Lee (31:41):
well, gonna say, so diet wise, I've always been very, um,
strict about my diet, so I don'tknow if I would do anything
different.
Kush (31:52):
I was about to actually, uh, ask you, uh, to kinda talk
about some things, uh, ancillaryto the actual climbing that have
helped you or hurt you.
And I wanted to ask about, uh,your diet, what's worked, what's
not worked, and then also ifyou, uh, uh, if you supplement
(32:13):
your diet with, uh, otherthings.
Lee (32:16):
I do and I have.
So I have experimented over theyears with all different type
types of diets, so here's mything about diet for one thing,
one diet does not fit everybody.
Everybody has different, uh,genetics, different things that
work for them and work don't.
So the biggest, biggest thingabout diet is to figure out what
(32:38):
works for you.
I've had some people say that ifthey eat vegan, for example.
They just feel low energy allthe time.
And I don't know whether that'spsychological or whether it's
genetic or whether it's true,you know, or, or what it is.
All I know is for me, at onepoint I was a strict food vegan
(33:02):
four years.
Kush (33:03):
Oh wow.
Oh wow.
Lee (33:05):
That's, yeah,
Kush (33:05):
For those of us who dunno, could you describe
Lee (33:08):
the, that's the most radical diet I've ever been on
is raw food.
Vegan.
For four years I did ate nocooked food, nothing but nuts,
seeds, veggies, salads,whatever.
And then I, at one point I wasjust a vegetarian.
I didn't want to eat meat.
(33:29):
Then I became a pescatarian andate fish.
I then, I married a woman who'svery much a meat eater, and then
eventually I just started eatingmeat.
And so personal experience withdiet is as, as long as you eat
well, for me anyway, it doesn'tmake any difference.
I, feel like my energy level is,fine no matter what I eat, as
(33:52):
long as I don't eat garbage orovereat.
So I also eat, I wouldn't say ahundred percent organic, but as
much as I can, I eat organic asmuch as possible.
Fruits, veggies, meat.
Um, the meat that I eat is, Iwill not eat inorganic meat.
just won't do it.
Except on very rare occasions,you know, you go out to dinner
(34:13):
somewhere at a restaurant.
I just find that, diet wise, Ijust, I make sure I eat really
well.
everybody's different again.
So like when I'm climbing, forexample, some people like to eat
a, like a lunch.
They like to eat a sandwich
Kush (34:26):
Yeah.
Lee (34:27):
and eat a big lunch.
And, um, people have asked me,well, we you doing all these
climbing, don't you feel likeyou should eat?
No, I eat a little bit.
I'll eat a a ba a bar, or somesmall bowl of fruit or something
like that.
But feel like if I eat a bigmeal or any kind of normal
lunch, like a sandwich orsomething, I can't even climb
(34:50):
anymore.
I, I can't climb hard.
It's, it just bogs me.
Kush (34:55):
Yeah.
Lee (34:56):
are different, so I don't, I wouldn't say that one.
Kush (34:58):
Yeah.
No, I think I'm the same way.
Uh, I like to graze when I'mclimbing and, uh, you know, it's
just like you, like, like littlesnacks to the day.
And, uh, I know that, uh, if Ibring a packed lunch and even if
I tell myself that I'm, I'm, I'mgonna only eat portions at a
time, I don't have anyself-control.
So if there is a, if I bring a,you know, like burrito or a
(35:22):
sandwich with me, I'm probablygonna scarf, scarf through the
whole thing and then, uh, I'llfeel like a slug for the next
few hours.
So I think, uh, I think a lot ofus would do well to subscribe by
that, uh, hey, you know, eat,healthy breakfast before you go
climbing.
And then, uh, you know, just eatenough to have to have
(35:43):
sufficient, energy outputsthrough the climbing day.
And then one can replenish,
Lee (35:49):
Well, one thing I do is pretty much routine that I do
is.
Like I told you, I don't reallyeat much in the morning, and
eventually when I do eat, I makea smoothie, so, and I put stuff
in my smoothie, so we get to thesupplementation stuff.
I put protein powder in mysmoothie.
Kush (36:09):
Mm-Hmm.
Okay.
Lee (36:10):
I'm pretty, pretty much convinced that, you know, we
need to eat protein.
Kush (36:15):
do you take like whey or, or vegan pea protein.
Lee (36:20):
I've been on using pea protein for now.
A couple years before that I wasdoing whey protein and I just
decided that I like pea proteinbetter.
and my smoothies are just fruit,some yogurt.
orange juice, frozen blueberriespineapple, that's it.
And then I add, uh, some otherpowders, glutamine for recovery.
(36:43):
I don't know how well that stuffworks really.
So I've done a lot ofexperimentation with some more
serious stuff, and I didn't findthat they did anything for me.
Kush (36:52):
when you say serious stuff, what is some of that
stuff
Lee (36:55):
Testosterone,
Kush (36:56):
Oh,
Lee (36:57):
So now the oral, but I've actually, for a brief period of
time, I was do, uh, this one,Health Professional was
convincing me that I should doinjectable testosterone.
Kush (37:09):
Why, why do you think they advised, was it like a health
condition or performance goals
Lee (37:15):
Supposedly according inject yourself to testosterone when
you get older, it keeps your, alot of things going stronger.
You libido, whatever.
But the only thing that Inoticed, which were two bad
things and nothing good, theway, I didn't get any stronger.
I was using it for a coupleyears.
(37:35):
My wife told me that I gotangrier, which was not pleasant
for her.
And the other thing thathappened, which is even worse,
is that, um, my PSA levels
Kush (37:49):
Ah, oh,
Lee (37:50):
Hmm.
Kush (37:51):
the
Lee (37:51):
prostate.specific antigen that stands for.
Prostate specific antigen.
So your PSA levels, means you,you're supposed to be typically
under four level of four.
And I went up at one point to alevel of nine and, and, the, uh,
I had to go to a urologist.
And urologist was, was tellingme that, um, I can't remember
(38:16):
what he told me I needed to do,but at the time I was thinking,
well, maybe it's thetestosterone.
So I stopped doing thetestosterone and this has
already been like a number ofyears ago and my PSA levels
dropped all the way back down tonormal.
Kush (38:31):
Oh wow.
So the testosterone, uh,contributed to the, uh, PSA
level rise.
Lee (38:36):
Yeah, I also at one point tried some HGH human growth
hormone.
Kush (38:42):
Oh, Yeah.
didn't know that was, uh, isn'tthat like a band, uh, banned
substance
Lee (38:48):
Well, it's banned for, uh, for competition athletes, but
you get a prescription for it,probably from somebody.
Kush (38:57):
Hmm.
Lee (38:58):
also some people smuggle it in from South America or
whatever.
I don't know where they get it,but, but they told me that, the
amount that I was taking was notstrong enough to really do
anything.
And, um, it's very expensive.
So injectable testosterone isnot that expensive.
HGH is very expensive.
(39:18):
So anyway, I tried that.
The other thing I've tried thata lot of people use, and again,
I don't find that it doesanything for me, matter of fact,
it has a negative effect, butsome people swear by is
creatine.
Kush (39:29):
okay.
Lee (39:30):
And so I tried that and I find it had a negative effect.
So a lot of these performanceenhancing drugs, I don't find
they do much of anything.
So I just stopped taking,
Kush (39:44):
create and, uh, seems to be widely embraced these days.
Actually, I take Creatinsometimes.
I used to lift, it's been a longtime.
Then I used to take more creatinand now I take Creatin now, and
I do know that I get slightlymore, uh, ripped when I take
Creatin, but then I stoppedtaking it and I just, yeah, I
(40:04):
think all of that water weight,uh, just kind of drains back
down.
So I, I, I can't really say ifit has performance, uh, with
climbing
Lee (40:12):
Yeah, see, I, I can't really say any of that stuff
that I've taken over the yearsand helps my performance.
The only thing I can say thatreally helps is when I keep my
weight down.
I've never had much of a weightproblem, but I do now because
after the screwed up my appetiteand I started eating.
Like I, I'm not doing it now,but I was just eating all kinds
(40:33):
of stuff.
That overdoing it.
There was good food, but justoverdoing it.
probably put on about 10 pounds.
And anyway, I have found thatover the years, that when I lose
weight, even, even three or fourpounds, I can feel the
difference in my climbing.
Kush (40:51):
sure.
Yeah, that's four pounds lessthat you have to carry up with
you.
That makes a difference.
Moving on Lee, You know, youhave dedicated, you know, the
last several decades to climbingand then also training and, uh,
fine tuning your performance.
you also maybe move to a placewhich allows you to climb very
(41:11):
consistently.
that kind of dedication, youknow, doesn't come without
sacrifice.
Anything That comes to mindwhere, uh, you know, you've made
sacrifices to allow you to, uh,pursue your goals.
Lee (41:22):
I think that about 10 or 15 years ago, and before that, I
didn't put my, Energy into, uh,fostering or, growing my
personal relationships with someof my relatives, some of my
friends, cetera.
But then about 10, 15 years agoor so, I changed, I was more
(41:45):
interested in, spending moretime with family, with friends
some other pursuits too.
Yeti Stereo Microphone (41:51):
Yes, spending time with, uh, family
and with close relations can beenormously satisfying.
Kush (42:01):
I believe, uh, you are, talented, uh, pianist.
I.
Is that one of those thingsthat, uh, you've gotten back
into?
Lee (42:08):
Yeah, I, I, I play a lot of piano.
I have a grand piano in my home.
I practice religiously.
So again, I approach the pianolike I do climbing.
I'm pretty goal oriented,probably why I, I'm somewhat
successful in what I, in thethings that I pursue.
I just apply myself however wayI can.
I have a piano instructor Sowhen I try, and again, as usual,
(42:33):
people have asked me this.
I have a piano group of friendsthat I go, that I hang out with,
and one of them recently askedme, like, Lee, why do you always
pick these really ridiculouslyhard pieces?
I go, well, I, I guess'cause I'mgoal oriented.
I mean, I, I, I say, why can't Iplay like, the professionals I
have compromised hands.
(42:53):
I've got arthritis in myfingers.
I've got, um, a condition, whichI'm thinking about right now
because of my back surgery.
I don't wanna deal with it, butI have, uh, what a condition
called dupuytren in my hands,which cause my fingers, one of
my fingers to curl in, which isnot very good for playing piano,
(43:14):
but I work around it.
Kush (43:15):
sure.
Lee (43:16):
yeah, I like the challenge of picking up, playing really
hard pieces I got really bad,uh, inside te elbow tendonitis
for a while and everybody givingme all these methods for trying
to get rid of using rubber bandsand using these various,
physical therapy type things andnothing really worked.
(43:37):
And then I got a grand piano andI noticed after playing for
about a month,
Kush (43:42):
Mm-Hmm.
Lee (43:42):
tendonitis went away.
And I like, wait, how did thathappen?
you think about it, a piano,you're doing antagonistic
movements all the time.
You're picking up your fingersthen you play piano.
And I got, was really into it.
I practiced for an hour to twohours a day, and then I noticed
after a month that my old batonjust went away.
And ever since, never came back.
Kush (44:05):
That's crazy.
let's say very, very cuttingedge.
left field, uh, finger rehabexercise.
Lee, in the last, uh, severalyears, has there been any kind
of new belief or behavior thathas, uh.
Or habit that has improved yourlife?
Anything outside of what we'vetalked about already?
Lee (44:23):
I can't say that I've mastered it or anything, but I
think I'm learning is the, uh,ideology of acceptance.
I have to accept certain things.
part of me, of course, as wediscussed, is that age is just a
number.
Um, you never know how well youcan do if you don't really apply
yourself, but sometimes you justhave to accept.
(44:45):
I have to accept that at thispoint in my climbing career, for
example, I'm never gonna climb afive 14 again.
Now, I wouldn't rule it out, butI would say it's, it's ruled
out.
I have to accept certain things,there's a fine line between
acceptance where you are, butit's the same time
non-acceptance.
I don't know if that makes anysense.
Kush (45:06):
No, I get it.
It's, it's, uh, it's acceptance,but you are not resigned to it.
you will accept the outcome, butyou will keep fighting against
it.
Lee (45:15):
right.
But it's, at some point youcan't fight to the point where
you're gonna hurt yourselfeither mentally or physically.
I've been working on that.
But also the thing that I'd saythat I've done, now that I think
about it, Up until, I would saymaybe like, you're probably
right in the last seven years,eight years, something like
that.
Maybe 10 I focus more on, onflexibility physical therapy.
(45:39):
I mean, I used to just like,don't mean to stretch that much.
I, I'm fine no, I'm not fine.
flexibility's important.
I work with a physical trainer,not just physical therapy, but I
have a, a woman here who has a,who's a dear friend of mine and
she has an athletic trainingfacility.
And over the years I've beenworking with her.
(45:59):
She's a physical trainer.
I've realized that, a lot ofpeople that get older realize
that they're losing someflexibility or maybe they need
to put more energy into their,uh, ability to, bend, to move,
to move more efficiently,
Kush (46:15):
I am doing that now, like mobility training and all the
physio and honestly, uh, It camenon-optional, where, simple
movements, uh, which one tookfor granted, you know, even 10
years ago in my mid thirties,early thirties, you know, were
not that simple anymore.
I think all of us should bedoing mobility work, and the
sooner we do it, the better.
(46:35):
And seeking out specialists whoactually can, analyze our
movements, our anatomy andprescribe, a plan to, uh, work
on our weakest links.
Badass.
never too late to, uh, startmobility.
I, I, I keep telling my mom thatmy mom is, uh, a couple of years
shy of you and, uh, I'm like,mom, you know, if you don't do
these mobility things now,they're gonna be, limiting your
(46:57):
lifestyle very soon.
you know, whether it's, climbinggoals or it's just simple
lifestyle goals, I thinkmobility and, and, uh,
physiotherapy, uh, is socritical to, uh, maintaining a
quality of life.
we are nearing the end of atime.
Just some fun questions.
what's the best gift that youhave received The best gift that
you have, you have given
Lee (47:17):
I don't know if it's a gift, but I think the best gift
I've received is, uh, my spouse,my wife, for many, many years.
I felt like I never really met awoman who I really wanted to
spend that much time with.
I.
And when I met her it justclicked.
And I think that was a, that's agift from, from the world.
The best gift I've ever given, Ithink was, at least most people
(47:41):
have told me that.
my mom is no longer with us, buttaking care of my mom when she
needed me.
I moved her up here with me Ibuilt an add-on apartment for
her on my house.
that was my gift to her to livewith me.
I took care of her for a yearand a half.
Kush (47:58):
life-changing gift.
Are you like a book readerwatch, TV or, uh.
Things on the, uh, internet, ifyou read books, uh, curious.
Any, any good book that you haveread recently or are reading
Lee (48:10):
up until about, oh, I don't know, probably 10 years ago or
maybe 15, I didn't read hardlyany books or anything.
I was addicted to doingcrossword puzzles and I would
read climbing magazine, rockingIce Magazine, more or less keep
up with politics, And thenstarting at about 15 years ago,
I started reading I've been anavid reader ever since.
(48:32):
And so I read, read a lot ofbooks.
Kush (48:35):
Okay.
any good book you wouldrecommend, uh, to the listeners?
Lee (48:39):
I'm attracted to nonfiction and political books or other
that are real.
I don't, I don't like fictionparticularly, unless it's
historical novels or somethinglike that.
So one very interesting bookthat I just read, which is a
brand new book pretty much thatcame out, was a book called Oath
(49:01):
and Honor by Liz Cheney.
Kush (49:03):
Oh, oh, I heard about that book Yes.
Liz Cheney's
Lee (49:06):
And she was right there in the insurrection on January 6th.
and what she has to say.
It was a, it's a remarkablebook.
So I, if you're into that sortof thing, I would highly
recommend that book.
The other book that I readrecently that was, recommended
to me, which has nothing to dowith politics, and actually it
was Michael Kennedy.
You know who Michael Kennedy is.
Kush (49:28):
I think so.
Lee (49:29):
So anyway, Michael lives here.
used to own, climbing magazineyears ago.
Anyway, he lives here he's agood friend of mine.
he recommended the book thatKatie Brown wrote.
Kush (49:42):
Yeah, I didn't read the book, but I remember hearing
Katie Brown It talks about herlike Christian upbringing and,
uh, all those things.
Lee (49:52):
the big, thing she talks about is the relationship she
had with her mother and climbingand how badly she felt about
herself and how conflicted shewas during her upbringing, which
she felt was very unhealthy.
And what's interesting about thebook is she really, really bears
her soul in this book.
(50:14):
And she's very, I have met heronce and other people that have
have met her said the samething, that she's very shy, she
doesn't feel comfortable talkingmuch about a life in public.
Yet she felt extremelycomfortable talking about
herself in depth book.
And so I, I read that about amonth ago, and that was a very,
(50:36):
very interesting book.
Kush (50:37):
I think when I first, uh, heard, heard about that book,
made a mental note and, uh,thanks for the reminder.
yeah, Liz Cheney's book andKatie Brown's book, uh, I mean,
Katie Brown.
I remember when I first went tothe Red, you know, Katie Brown,
uh, was famous because, uh, shehad done like the youngest, uh,
fa of, uh, youngest onsite of afive as a female, or the only on
(50:59):
site, which then got downgraded,but I think, yeah, she was the
only female to have onsighted atthat grade.
Lee (51:05):
Omaha Beach is the route, actually worked on that route a
little bit at the mother, Lord.
Kush (51:11):
Okay.
Lee (51:12):
Yeah, but the problem was is that the weather was not
conducive and I felt like Ididn't wanna spend my entire
vacation trying to do this oneroute that was far away from
where I lived.
but I'm actually astounded thatshe unsighted that route.
Kush (51:29):
Yeah.
And Lee, final question.
If there was a giganticbillboard where could add any
message that you wanted, whatwould you say on that message
for others?
Lee (51:43):
Okay.
Well this is getting to be alittle bit political, if that's
okay.
Kush (51:48):
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Say whatever you want.
Lee (51:50):
Um, our home is in danger.
Kush (51:53):
Home is in Okay.
The earth is in danger.
Lee (51:57):
It is actually, the earth is not in danger.
We're in danger It's a bookabout why civilizations fail.
Kush (52:04):
Okay.
It's a, I, I think I might haveread that book.
It's a, it's a, it's a bit of aheavy It's a long book.
Lee (52:12):
that's right.
Kush (52:13):
Yeah.
I read that a decade ago
Lee (52:15):
collapse, I think.
Is that the name of the book?
I think it's collapse.
So it's all about how culturescollapse and why they collapse.
the book outlines five reasonsand almost all cultures, if you
violate like three of thosereasons or more you will not
prevail.
However, I would say the messageon the billboard would have to
(52:38):
be something to the effect of weneed to support leaders, we need
to support things and changingour lives however we can do.
That will accept the science ofglobal climate change.
Kush (52:54):
Sure.
Lee, it's been a fantasticconversation.
I know the weekend is calling.
I don't want to keep you, uh,any longer.
But, uh, thanks so much for, uh,coming on today.
And, uh, you know, you inspireus, you inspire me.
Lee (53:10):
appreciate it Thank you.
Yeti Stereo Microphone-3 (53:13):
As we wrap up this awe inspiring
episode with Lee, I can'tpredict if he will conquer
another 514, but one thing's forsure, he'll keep setting those
sky high goals and craftingplans with grit and
determination.
Age or injuries, these are justnumbers to Lee.
He stays endlessly curious,going climbing with the gusto of
(53:37):
a teenager, all while jugglingother hobbies that feed his
thirst for progress.
Reflecting on Lee's journey, Isee a mirror image of myself.
Beyond the sheer thrill ofpushing my limits and climbing,
there is a yearning for thatelusive state of flow and
constant growth.
I often don't like to try hard,but when I find that perfect
(54:01):
activity and give it my best,the rewards are nothing short of
astonishing and deeplysatisfying.
Huge thanks for tuning in,friends.
Share the ageless vibes with abuddy.
And until our next adventuretogether, stay ageless, stay
adventurous.
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