July 31, 2021 • 23 mins
In this episode we take a look at BookTok, we have an editorial on plagues and content, and we have an update on the rights situation in the recent Bologna and London Book Fairs, which were virtual this year.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:03):
Welcome to our podcast.
I'm Sam Hiyate, CEO of TheRights Factory.
In this episode, we're talkingabout BookTok...
Lindsey Reeder (00:12):
Like you, Sam.
I was like, what is book talk?
Why am I hearing in every singleconversation?
I meant it just kind of tookover in the last like month or
two in publishing.
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (00:21):
We have an editorial on plagues and content.
Diane Terrana (00:24):
If you're thinking about writing a COVID
book to ride a wave, you'veprobably missed it.
Sam Hiyate (00:30):
And we have an update on the rights sales
situation in Bologna and London.
Now that those fairs are goingvirtual, from our Rights Manager
in Naples.
Milly Ruggiero (00:41):
But now we actually had very, very good
year.
So this is the strange thingafter the pandemic.
Sam Hiyate (00:50):
And today's panel, we're talking about how TikTok
is helping authors achievebetter sales.
And I'm joined today by DianeTerrana, Executive Editor at The
Rights Factory and the author ofThe World on Either Side.
Good morning, everyone.
It's great to be here.
We also have, Lindsey Reeder whois the Digital Marketing Senior
(01:14):
Manager at Harlequin TradePublishing.
Hi everyone.
Hi Lindsey.
And finally we have MarisaNoelle who is an author of young
adult and middle grade novelsleaning towards grounded science
fiction, urban fantasy andparanormal.
Marisa Noelle (01:30):
That's me.
Thanks for having me on.
Sam Hiyate (01:32):
Right.
We've got everybody here.
So I'm just going to start offby saying, you know, when I
first heard about TikTok, it wasreally about agents signing
people that were TikTok stars.
And then all of a sudden, theywere becoming like the new L ily
Singhs or whatever.
And then all of a sudden, nowI'm hearing"BookTok" and I
(01:56):
remember a few weeks ago, I waslike, what is BookTok?
So that led to this, this paneltoday.
U m, so I'm s o glad you guysare here who are actually on
this platform.
And my first question is how didthat happen?
Do you, anybody want to startwith that?
Marisa Noelle (02:11):
I'm happy to dive straight in here, um, from what
I've seen, I've been on TikTokfor a couple of months now, and
there's a lot more engagement,in TikTok than in YouTube, you
can interact, you can comment on, um, TikTok videos are either
15 seconds or a minute.
And you can, what we call"stitch" or"duet" with somebody
who is doing that video, whichmeans you can have the video
(02:34):
playing and leave your owncomments.
It's a great way to have adiscussion with the book
community, which you can't do onYouTube.
And it's a great way to voiceyour opinions and create threads
and discussions that the wholecommunity can become part of,
instead of just watching oneYouTuber's review catalog of
what they've read in whateveryear.
(02:56):
So I think that's the key, theengagement factor is the
difference for them both.
Lindsey Reeder (03:00):
Yeah, I think the other part too, is that it's
very short form content, which Ithink, you know, especially Gen
Z in particular are very usedto, and they consume quicker and
faster, but they still convert,which is really great to see as
well.
So I think it's reallyinteresting when it comes to,
um, the short form content ofgetting things out there
quickly, fastly, and like, it'sjust, it's a whole new world in
(03:20):
a sense, especially wearing mypublisher's hat.
I would say just like you, Sam,I was like, what is BookTok?
Why am I hearing in every singleconversation I'm in?
It just kind of took over in thelast like month or two in
publishing as a whole.
Okay.
Diane Terrana (03:35):
And just to be clear, I am not on TikTok.
I have an author who's not on itor not on any channel and have
zero desire to go on any channelas well, for more philosophical
reasons.
But I did do a tour of it tofigure out what we were talking
about for today.
And it's also geared to veryyoung people.
Is that correct?
That was certainly myunderstanding.
Yes.
Lindsey Reeder (03:55):
That's the case.
It's usually, I think thedemographic is 34 and under
that's the majority of theaudience.
But then there's the, you know,my moms of the world, who are
like sitting there and sayinglike, okay, what is TikTok?
I keep hearing about it.
So they're dipping their toes.
I think in six months, this willbe a very different
conversation.
I think there'll be an olderdemographic moving over to it as
well.
Absolutely.
I agree with that.
Sam Hiyate (04:16):
Are these, are these ads like endorsements?
Like what are they really?
Cause if you've got like aminute or, or less, to do your
video, how much, how can youreally sell a book in that time?
I'm a little baffled by it.
Diane Terrana (04:29):
Well, this is my argument against it.
In fact, that it's an antiliteracy platform.
Basically we're looking atglitzy less than one minute pony
and dog and pony productions tosell a book-- a book.
I mean, I consider literaturesomewhat sacred and, it's a
(04:49):
concern for me that this is whatwe're putting out there to the
kids who are to assess a book onhow alluring an author is.
Marisa Noelle (04:59):
I think there are a lot of different types of
videos that go on to BookTok.
And one of them is theaesthetics that we were talking
about now, to have the mood of abook created so that a reader
will see whether it's a fantasygenre or there's romance in it
and creating that atmosphere isvery enticing and tempting and
(05:21):
makes you want to dive into thepages that evokes those
emotions.
So that's one side of it andthere are some really big
BookTokkers getting hugefollowings in short amount of
times just by producing theseaesthetics.
There's also the people likebloggers, who will come in and
just talk about the book.
They will talk about the common,tropes, and you can decide if
(05:45):
you're a particular fan of anenemies to lovers situation or a
love triangle situation, whetherthose are the tropes that you
love to read about and whetherthat might be the right book for
you.
So it creates a whole, I don'tthink it's just about these
little trailers.
There's a lot more going on, inthe community then than one way
of looking at it.
(06:05):
Um, and the community by largeis very friendly and so eager to
connect with people.
There's a lot of people on booktalk who don't have friends in
real life that read books.
So these are people reaching outto have discussions, about these
books and saying, Hey, I lovethis book.
Let me share my passion withyou.
Can you read it to tell me whatyou thought?
(06:26):
And it's just a great way tohave that conversation.
Lindsey Reeder (06:29):
And I'm finding interestingly enough, that it's
less about like the content ofthe book and more about the
emotion that it evokes.
Um, I, I'm finding a lot of likebooks that made me cry because
it made me smile and laugh.
It's, it's tied around anemotion, which I don't know if
that's like, like again, likethe younger demographic thing,
but now like it's shifted how inpublishing anyway, in marketing
as a whole, how we're kind oftalking to these consumers, it's
(06:51):
more about emotion-based andless about the content itself,
which has been reallyinteresting-- that shift as a
whole.
Diane Terrana (06:57):
That's, that's my concern, less about the content.
I did find one youngish authorwho was selling her violent
erotica, and this is geared toyoung people-- teenagers are on
it-- and she was selling it inone clip with some captions.
And one of the captions was"Hegets off on making her bleed."
(07:20):
Another one was,"He efs her withhis gun," and I just felt
profoundly sad at that.
Marisa Noelle (07:27):
I have not come across anything like that, to be
honest.
Um, and I would too, if I sawthat there's a lot of authors,
well, there's a lot of, there'sa lot of"spice," as they like to
call it on, on BookTok.
So there's a huge corner ofthose who like a spicy romance,
perhaps it hasn't got theliterary criticism in, you know,
(07:49):
of the traditional world.
So these authors are on, BookTokand they have a following, and
they have a lot of readershipthere.
And obviously there are thesesub-genres and one of them is
the violence.
But, most of the authors I'veseen have disclaimers about"this
is only for 18 plus-- don'tfollow me." But the reality of
that is that we have a lot ofkids on BookTok.
(08:09):
So I agree Diane, that thoseconcerns are valid.
At the moment, this thing isexploding and we don't really
have the way to police that Iguess.
I mean, TikTok does have toapprove your videos.
So that is definitely an areathat we might need to look more
into, as it becomes bigger andbigger and bigger.
Lindsey Reeder (08:29):
I don't know the statistics around it.
So I can't actually saydefinitively, this is how fast
it's growing.
But I do think that the pandemichad a huge impact.
TikTok came out before then, andit was another app, blah, blah,
blah.
But then essentially, it waskind of people were dipping
their toes, but it was like ayoung platform in March of 2020.
And then people were home andbored and, um, TikTok kind of
(08:53):
blew up.
I think that the pandemic reallyhelped the app as a whole.
So I think this is just kind ofthe beginning.
I think it's going to be huge.
And in marketing world, we'relooking at it with a whole
different lens right now.
I think there's going to bemassive amounts of play, money,
things happening on TikTok.
Marisa Noelle (09:12):
I agree with you, Lindsey.
Since I've joined two monthsago, I have so many author
friends and-- editors I have,who work at publishing houses--
I've seen now joining TikTok.
The bloggers are now talkingabout the books that publishers
are sending them.
So publishers are recognizingthat this is a place to send
their ARC copies,to get peopletalking about their books, not
(09:33):
just on Instagram or blogs, etcetera.
So I think you're right.
I think we're at the beginningand I'm seeing some huge
accounts develop who are goingto be mega influencers, as we
carry on this journey.
So I think it's definitely aplace worth investing.
And the great thing is thatanyone can do it, whether you're
an agency or an author or aneditor or a publishing house,
(09:53):
you can all be on there,promoting, promoting a book.
Diane Terrana (09:59):
I did try to imagine some of my favorite
authors on it, like TonyMorrison or Rohinton Mistry,
Jojo Moyes.
And I couldn't.
I did imagine the Kardashians onit.
And then I found themimmediately.
Right.
Which I think says everythingthat's wrong with it in my view.
I also looked for, because it'sa, YA platform more than other
(10:21):
books.
I looked for my favorite YA, MegRosoff and I couldn't find her
on it either.
So, do you think it's going toextend to the more established
authors, Lindsey and Marisaa?
Or is it going to appeal to upand coming indie authors or new
debut authors who are trying toget a leg up?
Marisa Noelle (10:40):
I think it's both , Victoria Aveyard is already on
there and has a huge followingalong with a couple of authors
who have, I can't quite rememberat the moment.
I think the huge author namesare on there because people want
to see a slice of their life.
So they might not be doingpromotion per se, but they might
be talking about,"Hey, I hadthis idea," or"Here's where I
(11:00):
write from," or"This is what mylife is," bringing the reader
into their home and developingthat relationship.
Whereas for the indie author, itis about getting your name out
there, trying to get the readersinterested in your content and
to find a platform andfellowship.
So I think it will do both, tobe honest.
And I think, I think everyoneshould get on there.
(11:23):
Join me.
Lindsey Reeder (11:24):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I think there's certain authors.
I would kind of say,"Oh, I don'tthink that's the platform for
you." And I wouldn't say itbecause it's just a lot of work
that goes into creating content,and some content works and some
doesn't.
And so I think, you know, ToniMorrison on the platform, it
just wouldn't feel authentic toToni Morrison.
So I wouldn't recommend that toher.
But I think that there's certainauthors, for instance, Taylor
(11:45):
Jenkins Reid, whose book blew up-- The Seven Husbands one, um,
what one's hers?
The Seven Husbands of EvelynHugo, that was her book, blew up
on that platform.
Backlist had such a huge moment.
I would advise like someone likeher, who's very comfortable in
social media world to create aplatform.
So I think you have to feelcomfortable on the platform, to
(12:06):
make it work, or it'll just seemforced.
And, the community will seeright through it.
Marisa Noelle (12:10):
And just be yourself.
I mean, you can't copy exactlysomebody else's methods.
You just have to do what you cando.
Like I'm not a funny person, soI'm more of a genuine, here's my
running advice.
Here's what I'm working on.
I go for that route, rather thantrying to make people laugh
because that's not my thing.
Sam Hiyate (12:28):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, there's a lot to processhere.
I think we have to come back inabout six months and, see where
all this is.
I'd be very curious.
And Diane, I think you're right.
It would be great to see ifSalman Rushdie's on there,
sometime.
Diane Terrana (12:44):
Let's make it a date-- six months from now, the
four of us, back here.
Sam Hiyate (12:49):
Perfect.
Okay.
Thanks Lindsey.
Thanks Marisa.
Thanks Diane.
Thank you.
(Guess what I forgot to recordthat, on video, I mean.).
This week's opinion piece isfrom our very own Diane Terrana,
(13:13):
offering words of wisdom onwriting about COVID.
Diane Terrana (13:19):
Hello there.
This is for you authors whothink you may want to write
about COVID.
I've read several manuscripts inthe last few months that
struggle with this issue.
Authors, ask yourself somequestions.
Why do you want to write aboutCOVID?
Are you jumping on a trend?
Are you interested in buildingour new world?
(13:42):
Are you tipping your hat at allthe other humans and saying,
"Yes, I too have experiencedthis pandemic"?
Do you have something to say orexplore about COVID or do you
have a story that will benefitfrom a pandemic setting?
If you have something to saythat will sustain an entire book
or a story that will flourish ina pandemic setting, then great,
(14:04):
go ahead.
I would never argue, but youmight want to keep listening.
If you want to jump on the COVIDtrend, here are some numbers: At
The Rights Factory, we've soldthree COVID books, two
non-fiction and one YA fiction.
The first non- fiction isalready out.
The second is coming out inAugust, and the YA fiction is
due to hit the shelves in thefall.
(14:25):
One exasperated editor recentlytold Sam he was receiving two to
three pandemic submissions aweek.
And a quick survey atPublisher's Marketplace turned
up 28, acquired works ofpandemic fiction and 74 works of
non- fiction.
Hence, if you're thinking aboutwriting a COVID book to ride a
wave, you've probably missed it.
(14:48):
Maybe though you're building ournew world.
Several authors, including yourstruly you're currently writing
or finishing up novels that weassume will be sold in a
post-pandemic world.
We may be wrong, but we'retrying to imagine the little
legacies of COVID to add arealistic setting to novels that
(15:08):
are not about COVID, that couldhave been written well before it
ever struck.
When I read these manuscripts,including mine-- actually,
especially mine-- I trip overthe pandemic references.
While it does seem remiss not toacknowledge such a world-shaking
event.
And while there may be lastinglegacies, the references feel
(15:30):
strangely odd, out of place.
And even like, they're breakingthat third wall.
As an editor and an author.
I'm keeping my eye on thesethings.
Then there's the,"Are youtipping your hat at the rest of
the world"?
That just feels gratuitous andcompletely unnecessary.
Everyone knows that everyone hasbeen through a pandemic.
(15:53):
Some manuscripts have what I'mcalling non-sequitur COVID
chunks inserted willy nilly intothem.
Now, to be clear, these aremanuscripts that are not about
the pandemic that were in factlargely written before COVID
struck.
When I look at these sections, Ibring my-- my favorite checklist
to it.
(16:13):
Does this segment move the bookalong?
Is it integral to the story?
Is it necessary to what comesafter?
Is it a logical extension ofwhat came before?
If the answer to all thesequestions is no, the material
has to go.
COVID has impacted all of us.
Yes.
But if you find you're jamming aCOVID reference scene, or God
(16:35):
forbid, whole chapter into youralready basically finished
manuscript, at the last minute,don't.
Just don't.
If it has nothing to do withyour story, it should not be on
the page.
Thanks for hearing me out.
(16:55):
This is Diane Terrana, ExecutiveEditor at The Rights Factory,
coming to you from the GTA.
Sam Hiyate (17:10):
For hundreds of years, the rights selling of
literary properties has happenedin person, in places like
Frankfurt, London, and Bologna.
And in the last, few years, ofcourse it's been impossible.
So things have moved virtually.
Today we have our special guest,Milly Ruggiero, who is our own
(17:31):
Foreign Rights Manager at TheRights Factory in Naples.
Right now we're going to justcheck in with her about what's
happening.
Hi, Milly.
Hi.
And, and also on this talk wehave Diane Terrana.
Hi Sam.
Thanks.
Awesome.
So, Milly, I guess one of thethings that struck me is, doing
(17:55):
this virtually, like I know thatthe both Bologna and London over
the last two years have tried todo this in person, and then they
waited, waited, waited, andfinally they gave up.
So there's been a kind oflogistical thing happening, but
how have you found it, trying tokind of move from the old way to
the new way?
What what's it like now?
Cause my first Frankfurt, all Iremember was all the booze, and
(18:18):
I would walk into a party and itwould say"Flammarion" and there
was all this Veuve Clicquot andI'm like,"I love the French--
there's free champagne." Sowhat's it like without the
parties and the prosecco?
Milly Ruggiero (18:28):
Oh Yes.
So this is a kind of importantthing.
So we actually miss sometimes,because when you have a virtual
meeting, is that we don't reallymention anything about that.
We mentioned something from thepast and from the possible
future, but not actually fromthe present, because we don't
drink, we don't drink while weare in a meeting.
So it's a completely differentsituation.
(18:50):
And especially this type ofpartiy-- this is something that
we actually, we are thinking ina positive way that we can
absolutely go back, and go backto Frankfurt.
And all the book fairs thatactually will be on.
Diane Terrana (19:04):
I was just going to ask, did you end up enjoying
Bologna?
The new way?
Milly Ruggiero (19:09):
I actually enjoyed it because there, there
was many publishers, agents Ididn't actually meet before.
So they gave me the chance toactually connect, to be in
contact with the new publishersand to new people.
And this is something that isvery important, because in this
way you can create and yournetwork of clients, customers,
(19:31):
or these types of colleaguesanyway, or possibly friends in
the future.
So it's a long lastingrelationship that you actually
can build through the bookfair's platforms.
But anyway, thinking positivelythat everything can be physical
again.
Sam Hiyate (19:48):
Great.
I read somewhere that they saidthe deal flow was the same as
before, even though everything'smoving virtual.
So basically my thinking,reading that, is that the fact
that this right sale ishappening all the time,
digitally, without, depending onthe physical fairs, is making up
for the fact that the fairs havekind of evaporated until
possibly this fall for Frankfurt.
(20:09):
And next year, for the otherfairs.
Milly Ruggiero (20:11):
Actually we had an increase-- an increase in
sales-- even in our localmarket.
So the thing was that we werescared about Netflix or these
type of things, because wedidn't think that we could
possibly reach more readers, butthis is what's happened.
Actually we had more readers andan increase in publishing
(20:31):
distribution.
So, and also bookshops at thebeginning-- where we were
literally scared about thissituation., of bookshops--
Sam Hiyate (20:39):
Is this in Italy only, or most of Europe?
Milly Ruggiero (20:42):
In Europe, this has happened in Europe, in many
places in Germany, in France.
So this is-- and also becausebookshops actually started to do
their individual online shoppingsystems-- they built up these
kind of things.
So it was not having the orgiving the responsibilities to
Amazon or very big shoppingsuppliers anyway, but to give
(21:06):
the individual book shoppersactually the, chance to sell
their books and not close.
So this was a very importantpoint.
And this happened more or lessin all of over Europe.
They had an increase in sellingfor their local markets, but
also, they started to buy.
(21:27):
And all the sales point wasactually increasing rather than
decreasing.
Anyway.
So this was a very, yes, a verygood thing for the European
market.
Anyway, in this period.
We were also thinking that inItaly, we were going to, because
we did a type of so many readersin the past, but now we actually
(21:49):
had a very, very good year.
So this is the strange thingafter the pandemic.
So yes,.
Sam Hiyate (21:57):
So the pandemic scared everybody, but then it
helped everybody-- thedisruption of it, kind of
everybody.
As usual, everybody kind of cametogether and-- publishing people
are very strange as it alwaysreminds me of being in
university and joining theEnglish society.
And everybody's talking aboutall the same stuff.
It's like the publishingcommunity is like that group,
but made worldwide into like ahundred languages in a hundred
(22:19):
countries.
Milly Ruggiero (22:20):
They are always, obviously very cautious to buy
books.
They want some, something verystrong anyway, from the foreign
countries.
So for example, in France, inGermany, so it's, it's very
difficult, but you canabsolutely have many, many
points of sales anyway.
So it's a good period in astrange way.
(22:42):
It was unpredictable, but in theend, the result is absolutely
great.
Sam Hiyate (22:47):
Well, I'm hoping we can, this Frankfurt, I'm hoping
we can all hang out and havedrinks because the one thing to
me that alcohol adds to thesebook fairs-- this is from
personal experience-- is that ifI'm just talking to somebody
after about five or six hours, Iget tired, but if I drink, then
I got an extra five or six hours-- but then do you pay for that
later.
Milly Ruggiero (23:06):
Yes, exactly.
And especially the next morning,I think.
Sam Hiyate (23:14):
I don't want to talk about that.
Thanks so much, Milly.
That was great.
Good update.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
So that's our show folks.
I want to thank our guests andespecially our awesome producer,
Andrew Kaufman, take care andsee you next week.
Welcome to our podcast.
I'm Sam Hiyate, CEO of TheRights Factory.
In this episode, we're talkingabout BookTok...
Lindsey Reeder (00:12):
Like you, Sam.
I was like, what is book talk?
Why am I hearing in every singleconversation?
I meant it just kind of tookover in the last like month or
two in publishing.
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (00:21):
We have an editorial on plagues and content.
Diane Terrana (00:24):
If you're thinking about writing a COVID
book to ride a wave, you'veprobably missed it.
Sam Hiyate (00:30):
And we have an update on the rights sales
situation in Bologna and London.
Now that those fairs are goingvirtual, from our Rights Manager
in Naples.
Milly Ruggiero (00:41):
But now we actually had very, very good
year.
So this is the strange thingafter the pandemic.
Sam Hiyate (00:50):
And today's panel, we're talking about how TikTok
is helping authors achievebetter sales.
And I'm joined today by DianeTerrana, Executive Editor at The
Rights Factory and the author ofThe World on Either Side.
Good morning, everyone.
It's great to be here.
We also have, Lindsey Reeder whois the Digital Marketing Senior
(01:14):
Manager at Harlequin TradePublishing.
Hi everyone.
Hi Lindsey.
And finally we have MarisaNoelle who is an author of young
adult and middle grade novelsleaning towards grounded science
fiction, urban fantasy andparanormal.
Marisa Noelle (01:30):
That's me.
Thanks for having me on.
Sam Hiyate (01:32):
Right.
We've got everybody here.
So I'm just going to start offby saying, you know, when I
first heard about TikTok, it wasreally about agents signing
people that were TikTok stars.
And then all of a sudden, theywere becoming like the new L ily
Singhs or whatever.
And then all of a sudden, nowI'm hearing"BookTok" and I
(01:56):
remember a few weeks ago, I waslike, what is BookTok?
So that led to this, this paneltoday.
U m, so I'm s o glad you guysare here who are actually on
this platform.
And my first question is how didthat happen?
Do you, anybody want to startwith that?
Marisa Noelle (02:11):
I'm happy to dive straight in here, um, from what
I've seen, I've been on TikTokfor a couple of months now, and
there's a lot more engagement,in TikTok than in YouTube, you
can interact, you can comment on, um, TikTok videos are either
15 seconds or a minute.
And you can, what we call"stitch" or"duet" with somebody
who is doing that video, whichmeans you can have the video
(02:34):
playing and leave your owncomments.
It's a great way to have adiscussion with the book
community, which you can't do onYouTube.
And it's a great way to voiceyour opinions and create threads
and discussions that the wholecommunity can become part of,
instead of just watching oneYouTuber's review catalog of
what they've read in whateveryear.
(02:56):
So I think that's the key, theengagement factor is the
difference for them both.
Lindsey Reeder (03:00):
Yeah, I think the other part too, is that it's
very short form content, which Ithink, you know, especially Gen
Z in particular are very usedto, and they consume quicker and
faster, but they still convert,which is really great to see as
well.
So I think it's reallyinteresting when it comes to,
um, the short form content ofgetting things out there
quickly, fastly, and like, it'sjust, it's a whole new world in
(03:20):
a sense, especially wearing mypublisher's hat.
I would say just like you, Sam,I was like, what is BookTok?
Why am I hearing in every singleconversation I'm in?
It just kind of took over in thelast like month or two in
publishing as a whole.
Okay.
Diane Terrana (03:35):
And just to be clear, I am not on TikTok.
I have an author who's not on itor not on any channel and have
zero desire to go on any channelas well, for more philosophical
reasons.
But I did do a tour of it tofigure out what we were talking
about for today.
And it's also geared to veryyoung people.
Is that correct?
That was certainly myunderstanding.
Yes.
Lindsey Reeder (03:55):
That's the case.
It's usually, I think thedemographic is 34 and under
that's the majority of theaudience.
But then there's the, you know,my moms of the world, who are
like sitting there and sayinglike, okay, what is TikTok?
I keep hearing about it.
So they're dipping their toes.
I think in six months, this willbe a very different
conversation.
I think there'll be an olderdemographic moving over to it as
well.
Absolutely.
I agree with that.
Sam Hiyate (04:16):
Are these, are these ads like endorsements?
Like what are they really?
Cause if you've got like aminute or, or less, to do your
video, how much, how can youreally sell a book in that time?
I'm a little baffled by it.
Diane Terrana (04:29):
Well, this is my argument against it.
In fact, that it's an antiliteracy platform.
Basically we're looking atglitzy less than one minute pony
and dog and pony productions tosell a book-- a book.
I mean, I consider literaturesomewhat sacred and, it's a
(04:49):
concern for me that this is whatwe're putting out there to the
kids who are to assess a book onhow alluring an author is.
Marisa Noelle (04:59):
I think there are a lot of different types of
videos that go on to BookTok.
And one of them is theaesthetics that we were talking
about now, to have the mood of abook created so that a reader
will see whether it's a fantasygenre or there's romance in it
and creating that atmosphere isvery enticing and tempting and
(05:21):
makes you want to dive into thepages that evokes those
emotions.
So that's one side of it andthere are some really big
BookTokkers getting hugefollowings in short amount of
times just by producing theseaesthetics.
There's also the people likebloggers, who will come in and
just talk about the book.
They will talk about the common,tropes, and you can decide if
(05:45):
you're a particular fan of anenemies to lovers situation or a
love triangle situation, whetherthose are the tropes that you
love to read about and whetherthat might be the right book for
you.
So it creates a whole, I don'tthink it's just about these
little trailers.
There's a lot more going on, inthe community then than one way
of looking at it.
(06:05):
Um, and the community by largeis very friendly and so eager to
connect with people.
There's a lot of people on booktalk who don't have friends in
real life that read books.
So these are people reaching outto have discussions, about these
books and saying, Hey, I lovethis book.
Let me share my passion withyou.
Can you read it to tell me whatyou thought?
(06:26):
And it's just a great way tohave that conversation.
Lindsey Reeder (06:29):
And I'm finding interestingly enough, that it's
less about like the content ofthe book and more about the
emotion that it evokes.
Um, I, I'm finding a lot of likebooks that made me cry because
it made me smile and laugh.
It's, it's tied around anemotion, which I don't know if
that's like, like again, likethe younger demographic thing,
but now like it's shifted how inpublishing anyway, in marketing
as a whole, how we're kind oftalking to these consumers, it's
(06:51):
more about emotion-based andless about the content itself,
which has been reallyinteresting-- that shift as a
whole.
Diane Terrana (06:57):
That's, that's my concern, less about the content.
I did find one youngish authorwho was selling her violent
erotica, and this is geared toyoung people-- teenagers are on
it-- and she was selling it inone clip with some captions.
And one of the captions was"Hegets off on making her bleed."
(07:20):
Another one was,"He efs her withhis gun," and I just felt
profoundly sad at that.
Marisa Noelle (07:27):
I have not come across anything like that, to be
honest.
Um, and I would too, if I sawthat there's a lot of authors,
well, there's a lot of, there'sa lot of"spice," as they like to
call it on, on BookTok.
So there's a huge corner ofthose who like a spicy romance,
perhaps it hasn't got theliterary criticism in, you know,
(07:49):
of the traditional world.
So these authors are on, BookTokand they have a following, and
they have a lot of readershipthere.
And obviously there are thesesub-genres and one of them is
the violence.
But, most of the authors I'veseen have disclaimers about"this
is only for 18 plus-- don'tfollow me." But the reality of
that is that we have a lot ofkids on BookTok.
(08:09):
So I agree Diane, that thoseconcerns are valid.
At the moment, this thing isexploding and we don't really
have the way to police that Iguess.
I mean, TikTok does have toapprove your videos.
So that is definitely an areathat we might need to look more
into, as it becomes bigger andbigger and bigger.
Lindsey Reeder (08:29):
I don't know the statistics around it.
So I can't actually saydefinitively, this is how fast
it's growing.
But I do think that the pandemichad a huge impact.
TikTok came out before then, andit was another app, blah, blah,
blah.
But then essentially, it waskind of people were dipping
their toes, but it was like ayoung platform in March of 2020.
And then people were home andbored and, um, TikTok kind of
(08:53):
blew up.
I think that the pandemic reallyhelped the app as a whole.
So I think this is just kind ofthe beginning.
I think it's going to be huge.
And in marketing world, we'relooking at it with a whole
different lens right now.
I think there's going to bemassive amounts of play, money,
things happening on TikTok.
Marisa Noelle (09:12):
I agree with you, Lindsey.
Since I've joined two monthsago, I have so many author
friends and-- editors I have,who work at publishing houses--
I've seen now joining TikTok.
The bloggers are now talkingabout the books that publishers
are sending them.
So publishers are recognizingthat this is a place to send
their ARC copies,to get peopletalking about their books, not
(09:33):
just on Instagram or blogs, etcetera.
So I think you're right.
I think we're at the beginningand I'm seeing some huge
accounts develop who are goingto be mega influencers, as we
carry on this journey.
So I think it's definitely aplace worth investing.
And the great thing is thatanyone can do it, whether you're
an agency or an author or aneditor or a publishing house,
(09:53):
you can all be on there,promoting, promoting a book.
Diane Terrana (09:59):
I did try to imagine some of my favorite
authors on it, like TonyMorrison or Rohinton Mistry,
Jojo Moyes.
And I couldn't.
I did imagine the Kardashians onit.
And then I found themimmediately.
Right.
Which I think says everythingthat's wrong with it in my view.
I also looked for, because it'sa, YA platform more than other
(10:21):
books.
I looked for my favorite YA, MegRosoff and I couldn't find her
on it either.
So, do you think it's going toextend to the more established
authors, Lindsey and Marisaa?
Or is it going to appeal to upand coming indie authors or new
debut authors who are trying toget a leg up?
Marisa Noelle (10:40):
I think it's both , Victoria Aveyard is already on
there and has a huge followingalong with a couple of authors
who have, I can't quite rememberat the moment.
I think the huge author namesare on there because people want
to see a slice of their life.
So they might not be doingpromotion per se, but they might
be talking about,"Hey, I hadthis idea," or"Here's where I
(11:00):
write from," or"This is what mylife is," bringing the reader
into their home and developingthat relationship.
Whereas for the indie author, itis about getting your name out
there, trying to get the readersinterested in your content and
to find a platform andfellowship.
So I think it will do both, tobe honest.
And I think, I think everyoneshould get on there.
(11:23):
Join me.
Lindsey Reeder (11:24):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I think there's certain authors.
I would kind of say,"Oh, I don'tthink that's the platform for
you." And I wouldn't say itbecause it's just a lot of work
that goes into creating content,and some content works and some
doesn't.
And so I think, you know, ToniMorrison on the platform, it
just wouldn't feel authentic toToni Morrison.
So I wouldn't recommend that toher.
But I think that there's certainauthors, for instance, Taylor
(11:45):
Jenkins Reid, whose book blew up-- The Seven Husbands one, um,
what one's hers?
The Seven Husbands of EvelynHugo, that was her book, blew up
on that platform.
Backlist had such a huge moment.
I would advise like someone likeher, who's very comfortable in
social media world to create aplatform.
So I think you have to feelcomfortable on the platform, to
(12:06):
make it work, or it'll just seemforced.
And, the community will seeright through it.
Marisa Noelle (12:10):
And just be yourself.
I mean, you can't copy exactlysomebody else's methods.
You just have to do what you cando.
Like I'm not a funny person, soI'm more of a genuine, here's my
running advice.
Here's what I'm working on.
I go for that route, rather thantrying to make people laugh
because that's not my thing.
Sam Hiyate (12:28):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, there's a lot to processhere.
I think we have to come back inabout six months and, see where
all this is.
I'd be very curious.
And Diane, I think you're right.
It would be great to see ifSalman Rushdie's on there,
sometime.
Diane Terrana (12:44):
Let's make it a date-- six months from now, the
four of us, back here.
Sam Hiyate (12:49):
Perfect.
Okay.
Thanks Lindsey.
Thanks Marisa.
Thanks Diane.
Thank you.
(Guess what I forgot to recordthat, on video, I mean.).
This week's opinion piece isfrom our very own Diane Terrana,
(13:13):
offering words of wisdom onwriting about COVID.
Diane Terrana (13:19):
Hello there.
This is for you authors whothink you may want to write
about COVID.
I've read several manuscripts inthe last few months that
struggle with this issue.
Authors, ask yourself somequestions.
Why do you want to write aboutCOVID?
Are you jumping on a trend?
Are you interested in buildingour new world?
(13:42):
Are you tipping your hat at allthe other humans and saying,
"Yes, I too have experiencedthis pandemic"?
Do you have something to say orexplore about COVID or do you
have a story that will benefitfrom a pandemic setting?
If you have something to saythat will sustain an entire book
or a story that will flourish ina pandemic setting, then great,
(14:04):
go ahead.
I would never argue, but youmight want to keep listening.
If you want to jump on the COVIDtrend, here are some numbers: At
The Rights Factory, we've soldthree COVID books, two
non-fiction and one YA fiction.
The first non- fiction isalready out.
The second is coming out inAugust, and the YA fiction is
due to hit the shelves in thefall.
(14:25):
One exasperated editor recentlytold Sam he was receiving two to
three pandemic submissions aweek.
And a quick survey atPublisher's Marketplace turned
up 28, acquired works ofpandemic fiction and 74 works of
non- fiction.
Hence, if you're thinking aboutwriting a COVID book to ride a
wave, you've probably missed it.
(14:48):
Maybe though you're building ournew world.
Several authors, including yourstruly you're currently writing
or finishing up novels that weassume will be sold in a
post-pandemic world.
We may be wrong, but we'retrying to imagine the little
legacies of COVID to add arealistic setting to novels that
(15:08):
are not about COVID, that couldhave been written well before it
ever struck.
When I read these manuscripts,including mine-- actually,
especially mine-- I trip overthe pandemic references.
While it does seem remiss not toacknowledge such a world-shaking
event.
And while there may be lastinglegacies, the references feel
(15:30):
strangely odd, out of place.
And even like, they're breakingthat third wall.
As an editor and an author.
I'm keeping my eye on thesethings.
Then there's the,"Are youtipping your hat at the rest of
the world"?
That just feels gratuitous andcompletely unnecessary.
Everyone knows that everyone hasbeen through a pandemic.
(15:53):
Some manuscripts have what I'mcalling non-sequitur COVID
chunks inserted willy nilly intothem.
Now, to be clear, these aremanuscripts that are not about
the pandemic that were in factlargely written before COVID
struck.
When I look at these sections, Ibring my-- my favorite checklist
to it.
(16:13):
Does this segment move the bookalong?
Is it integral to the story?
Is it necessary to what comesafter?
Is it a logical extension ofwhat came before?
If the answer to all thesequestions is no, the material
has to go.
COVID has impacted all of us.
Yes.
But if you find you're jamming aCOVID reference scene, or God
(16:35):
forbid, whole chapter into youralready basically finished
manuscript, at the last minute,don't.
Just don't.
If it has nothing to do withyour story, it should not be on
the page.
Thanks for hearing me out.
(16:55):
This is Diane Terrana, ExecutiveEditor at The Rights Factory,
coming to you from the GTA.
Sam Hiyate (17:10):
For hundreds of years, the rights selling of
literary properties has happenedin person, in places like
Frankfurt, London, and Bologna.
And in the last, few years, ofcourse it's been impossible.
So things have moved virtually.
Today we have our special guest,Milly Ruggiero, who is our own
(17:31):
Foreign Rights Manager at TheRights Factory in Naples.
Right now we're going to justcheck in with her about what's
happening.
Hi, Milly.
Hi.
And, and also on this talk wehave Diane Terrana.
Hi Sam.
Thanks.
Awesome.
So, Milly, I guess one of thethings that struck me is, doing
(17:55):
this virtually, like I know thatthe both Bologna and London over
the last two years have tried todo this in person, and then they
waited, waited, waited, andfinally they gave up.
So there's been a kind oflogistical thing happening, but
how have you found it, trying tokind of move from the old way to
the new way?
What what's it like now?
Cause my first Frankfurt, all Iremember was all the booze, and
(18:18):
I would walk into a party and itwould say"Flammarion" and there
was all this Veuve Clicquot andI'm like,"I love the French--
there's free champagne." Sowhat's it like without the
parties and the prosecco?
Milly Ruggiero (18:28):
Oh Yes.
So this is a kind of importantthing.
So we actually miss sometimes,because when you have a virtual
meeting, is that we don't reallymention anything about that.
We mentioned something from thepast and from the possible
future, but not actually fromthe present, because we don't
drink, we don't drink while weare in a meeting.
So it's a completely differentsituation.
(18:50):
And especially this type ofpartiy-- this is something that
we actually, we are thinking ina positive way that we can
absolutely go back, and go backto Frankfurt.
And all the book fairs thatactually will be on.
Diane Terrana (19:04):
I was just going to ask, did you end up enjoying
Bologna?
The new way?
Milly Ruggiero (19:09):
I actually enjoyed it because there, there
was many publishers, agents Ididn't actually meet before.
So they gave me the chance toactually connect, to be in
contact with the new publishersand to new people.
And this is something that isvery important, because in this
way you can create and yournetwork of clients, customers,
(19:31):
or these types of colleaguesanyway, or possibly friends in
the future.
So it's a long lastingrelationship that you actually
can build through the bookfair's platforms.
But anyway, thinking positivelythat everything can be physical
again.
Sam Hiyate (19:48):
Great.
I read somewhere that they saidthe deal flow was the same as
before, even though everything'smoving virtual.
So basically my thinking,reading that, is that the fact
that this right sale ishappening all the time,
digitally, without, depending onthe physical fairs, is making up
for the fact that the fairs havekind of evaporated until
possibly this fall for Frankfurt.
(20:09):
And next year, for the otherfairs.
Milly Ruggiero (20:11):
Actually we had an increase-- an increase in
sales-- even in our localmarket.
So the thing was that we werescared about Netflix or these
type of things, because wedidn't think that we could
possibly reach more readers, butthis is what's happened.
Actually we had more readers andan increase in publishing
(20:31):
distribution.
So, and also bookshops at thebeginning-- where we were
literally scared about thissituation., of bookshops--
Sam Hiyate (20:39):
Is this in Italy only, or most of Europe?
Milly Ruggiero (20:42):
In Europe, this has happened in Europe, in many
places in Germany, in France.
So this is-- and also becausebookshops actually started to do
their individual online shoppingsystems-- they built up these
kind of things.
So it was not having the orgiving the responsibilities to
Amazon or very big shoppingsuppliers anyway, but to give
(21:06):
the individual book shoppersactually the, chance to sell
their books and not close.
So this was a very importantpoint.
And this happened more or lessin all of over Europe.
They had an increase in sellingfor their local markets, but
also, they started to buy.
(21:27):
And all the sales point wasactually increasing rather than
decreasing.
Anyway.
So this was a very, yes, a verygood thing for the European
market.
Anyway, in this period.
We were also thinking that inItaly, we were going to, because
we did a type of so many readersin the past, but now we actually
(21:49):
had a very, very good year.
So this is the strange thingafter the pandemic.
So yes,.
Sam Hiyate (21:57):
So the pandemic scared everybody, but then it
helped everybody-- thedisruption of it, kind of
everybody.
As usual, everybody kind of cametogether and-- publishing people
are very strange as it alwaysreminds me of being in
university and joining theEnglish society.
And everybody's talking aboutall the same stuff.
It's like the publishingcommunity is like that group,
but made worldwide into like ahundred languages in a hundred
(22:19):
countries.
Milly Ruggiero (22:20):
They are always, obviously very cautious to buy
books.
They want some, something verystrong anyway, from the foreign
countries.
So for example, in France, inGermany, so it's, it's very
difficult, but you canabsolutely have many, many
points of sales anyway.
So it's a good period in astrange way.
(22:42):
It was unpredictable, but in theend, the result is absolutely
great.
Sam Hiyate (22:47):
Well, I'm hoping we can, this Frankfurt, I'm hoping
we can all hang out and havedrinks because the one thing to
me that alcohol adds to thesebook fairs-- this is from
personal experience-- is that ifI'm just talking to somebody
after about five or six hours, Iget tired, but if I drink, then
I got an extra five or six hours-- but then do you pay for that
later.
Milly Ruggiero (23:06):
Yes, exactly.
And especially the next morning,I think.
Sam Hiyate (23:14):
I don't want to talk about that.
Thanks so much, Milly.
That was great.
Good update.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
So that's our show folks.
I want to thank our guests andespecially our awesome producer,
Andrew Kaufman, take care andsee you next week.
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