August 10, 2021 • 25 mins
This week we discuss the phenomenon of celebrity book clubs and break down Obama’s new summer reading list. Featuring panel discussions with author and book publicist Nathaniel Moore; VP of Operations for Dundurn Press, Chris Houston; and The Rights Factory’s own Executive Editor Diane Terrana, and agents Stacey Kondla and Kathryn Willms.
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Sam Hiyate (00:03):
Hello, welcome to Agent Provocateur episode 2.
I'm Sam Hiyate, founder and CEOof The Rights Factory.
This week, Obama's summerreading list...
Kathryn Willms (00:13):
Hard yes, on this one.
I loved his last book on theIrish troubles, Say Nothing--
Sam Hiyate (00:21):
But first, we're having a panel discussion about
the pros and cons of the new andmassively growing trend of
celebrity book clubs.
O.M.G.
If you're like me, you'rewondering where all these book
clubs are coming from.
Are they here to stay?
(00:41):
Do they actually help or hurtreaders?
I mean, it's likely they're goodfor publishing, but readers,
literature.
To take a closer look.
We've assembled a crack team ofindustry insiders.
With me today, we have my co-host, and Executive Editor, at
the Rights Factory, DianeTerrana.
Diane Terrana (01:01):
Good morning.
Good to be here.
Sam Hiyate (01:04):
We have Stacy Kondla, who's also an agent at
the Rights Factory, and we'll bespeaking a lot about her past
and somewhat current career as abookseller.
Stacey Kondla (01:16):
Hi Sam.
Thank you.
Sam Hiyate (01:17):
And, finally we have , I guess he's now known as a
gadfly, but I just know him asNathaniel Moore, book publicist
and author and general wit andliterary guy.
Nathaniel Moore (01:33):
Hello.
Sam Hiyate (01:35):
So it looks like book clubs are here to stay.
I guess my first question is,what does this mean for, I guess
what does it mean forbooksellers?
Because I think the publishersare happy that if everybody's
talking about books, it's goodfor writers, It's good for them.
It's good for book sales.
(01:56):
Stacy, why don't we start withyou, having worked, in
bookselling for a period oftime.
Stacey Kondla (02:04):
Yeah.
I mean, overall, anything thatsells books is a good thing for
booksellers too, right, not justthe publishers, but sellers want
to sell books.
I think the other question thatcomes from that question though,
is, is this a good thing forliterature as a whole, right?
Like, that's the big question.
And I think it has multipleanswers, right?
(02:27):
Like, so overall, yes, they area great thing.
People are reading.
People are talking about books.
Super awesome.
We love that.
I feel like the problem isthough, is they're all talking
about the same books and I lovethat quote by Ishiguro-- I'm
paraphrasing here-- but it's,"Ifyou only read what everybody
else is reading, you can onlythink what everyone else is
(02:48):
thinking."
Sam Hiyate (02:50):
That's exactly what my concern is.
Stacey Kondla (02:52):
That's where the problem comes in.
Exactly.
So I worry that we're justgetting, you know, these lists
of books that are similar,right?
Because they're catering to aspecific kind of reader.
And I don't think that the bookclubs overall challenge readers
to step outside of their comfortzones.
And that's a bad thing.
Diane Terrana (03:13):
Yeah, I'd like to jump in here with one of my pet
peeves, which is, Heather'sPicks.
Now I've seen her called theliterary authority in the
country.
And, I'm just baffled by that.
Why would Heather Reisman be aliterary authority?
She's not a writer.
Well, she does have a book outnow co-written with a cookbook
(03:35):
author.
I'm still not calling her awriter.
She's not a reviewer.
She's not an English professor.
She's never written a review asfar as I can see.
And I've looked, she's never hadto put her thoughts together to
explain, to articulate, why shelikes a book.
So she slaps a sticker on it, abook she loves.
I certainly believe she readsthem-- many people don't-- she
(03:59):
slaps the sticker on, or getsher minions to slap stickers on,
and we're supposed to go, Oh myGod.
Yes.
We all have to buy this book.
I don't get it.
She's certainly not SheilaRogers.
She's not really sharing herthoughts on anything.
Just expecting us to go,"Youlove it, Heather.
So I better go out and buy it."
Stacey Kondla (04:22):
And it works at Indigo.
People buy them like crazy.
Sam Hiyate (04:27):
Let me ask Nathaniel -- Nathaniel, what's your sense
of this?
You're a writer too.
You're a publicist in the bookworld.
Nathaniel Moore (04:33):
Yeah.
I wouldn't worry Diane, too muchabout Heather, finding out
anything you've said because wehave no proof that she has
actually uses the Internet, butI would like to say, all joking
aside that, what we areexperiencing now, in my opinion,
are the obvious next steps, forour culture to avoid reviewing
(04:58):
books at any cost.
Someone with a grade leveleducation can cut and paste
catalog copy and put together alist.
It's anti-- well, I don't evenneed to say"anti"-- these book
blogs, which the successful onesI would say, are staunchly
(05:18):
American, but of course, Canada,you know, we're going to be
emulating them to some degree,but I really think that these
lists, are going to replaceawards, or be as important as
awards.
I know for a fact havingmeetings with producers at CBC
and other media factions thatthese lists are things that
publishers and authors obsessabout.
(05:39):
And I know for a fact that whenone of my authors isn't on the
list, I'll get, I'll get a call.
Like, why didn't they pick me?
Why aren't I, one of 500 newnovels coming out this fall?
People like the lists.
Sam Hiyate (05:51):
So the danger is going back to this homogeneity
argument, is that theseinfluencers and book club people
, have such power.
They're not, in my mind, I don'tsee them using it to support
that small press book or thatdebut novel that nobody's ever
heard of, that they love.
I feel they're just promotingthe same stuff.
The big books from the bigauthors that they already know,
(06:14):
that's very low risk becausethey can't afford the risk in a
way.
Stacey Kondla (06:18):
Yeah.
And that's my point, right?
That I, that I made at thebeginning is it, you know, it's,
it's the same kind of books thatthey're recommending over and
over.
Out of all of the book clubsthat are out there right now, I
do think that Reese is offeringthe broadest selection of genres
and types of books.
She does mix it up, and she isrecommending YA novels as well,
which is awesome.
But again, they're all from likebig publishers, right?
(06:40):
I don't see any of thesecelebrity book club lists
promoting small press bookswhere it could be seriously
life-changing for a press.
It's not life-changing for thebig four.
Diane Terrana (06:51):
So you just wonder what kind of lobbying is
going on behind the scenes?
I mean, I just took a look atHeather's recent picks.
The first seven I checked outare all from huge publishers.
So, I'm assuming there is biglobbying going on behind the
scenes and the publishers withthe big money and the power are
getting their book lists infront of these influencers.
Stacey Kondla (07:12):
Yeah.
But then it also comes back tothe readers.
Okay.
So readers are buying into it,though.
And we're talking that thepeople that buy from these lists
are your typical consumer.
They are the average reader thatjust picks up a book for
entertainment or picks up a bookbecause they heard their best
friend read it, and they want totalk about it.
(07:32):
Those are the kinds of readerswe're talking about, that buy
off of these lists.
Nathaniel Moore (07:36):
But that's the sinister thing that's going on.
Stacey Kondla (07:38):
Yeah.
And it's not, you know, the morediscerning owners.
Nathaniel Moore (07:41):
It's data mining.
Stacey Kondla (07:41):
Yeah.
And different readers will buydifferent books, right.
So the book club buyers are notthe only readers out there, but
they're definitely the biggestpart of the market.
Right.
And they want to be reading thesame things because they want to
feel like they're a part ofsomething and they want to have
those discussions, and theydon't want to feel like they
(08:03):
missed out because they didn'tread this book that everybody
else has read.
So...
Sam Hiyate (08:08):
Stacy, you were saying that your feeling was,
some of the clubs, at least atthe store that you're at part
-time, which is an indie store--how, do the different book clubs
or lists, how do they play outon the front lines?
Stacey Kondla (08:23):
I feel like overall, different book clubs do
do differently at different booksellers, right?
Like if we're talking aboutphysical bookstores, different
book clubs are going to dobetter at one store than other
stores, depending on thebookstores, demographics, and
the kinds of books that theyspecialize in.
Right?
So the book store that I workat, it's an independent.
(08:45):
It does actually specialize inbook club books, and we sell
boatloads of them.
Reese picks do really, reallywell at the bookstore that I
work at.
Oprah picks tend to do a littleless well, and obviously we
don't showcase Heather's picks.
Diane Terrana (09:03):
But you did work at Indigo at one time.
Stacey Kondla (09:04):
I did work at Indigo and Heather's Picks sold
like hotcakes.
And, it's partly because Indigocustomers know who Heather is.
And there's that great big inyour face Heather's Pick table
at the front of the store,driving those titles.
Diane Terrana (09:18):
Any table right at the front of the store may
attract attention.
Whether they had gold stickersaffixed to the jackets or not.
Is it just intellectual lazinesson the part of readers?
Stacey Kondla (09:30):
Well, again, it goes back to why are people
reading?
And you have to understand thatthe bulk of the readers out
there aren't reading becausethey're literary experts and
they want to do a literarycritique on a book that they
read.
They are entertainmentconsumers.
They want to be entertained.
Diane Terrana (09:48):
But I'm an entertainment consumer.
I don't want to do critiques onthe books I read-- I do
critiques on the books I edit.
I just love to enjoy a book, butI thought--
Stacey Kondla (09:57):
Average readers read at a different level.
Average readers read at adifferent level.
They read differently thanpeople who work in the book
industry.
It's just the cold hard fact ofit.
They don't read the way we read,as industry professionals.
Right.
There are readers out therethough, that will come into the
(10:19):
independent that I work at andlook at a book and go,"Oh, it's
a Reese pick.
I'm not buying that." Or they'lllook at it and go,"Oh, that's a
New York times bestseller.
I'm not buying that.
I want a good book.
I want literature." There arethose readers that exist, but
it's the people that shop thebook clubs are in the majority.
That's what they want.
They want to be told what toread, and they want to be
(10:40):
reading as a group to feel likethey're part of a group.
Nathaniel Moore (10:44):
I think one thing that is positive of the
changing of the guards in bookmedia-- I can't speak for
America-- but I can say inCanada that reviews, the review
culture is pretty much dead.
, Unfortunately, and these bookblogs-- and I'm talking about
traditional reviews innewspapers and entertainment
(11:05):
weeklies that we used to knowabout and rely on and they're
much missed.
But I think that these new bookblogs and podcasts are creating
a lot of pages and a lot ofclick-throughs.
And it's a new way of promotingand sharing books, but obviously
the independent, presses arelacking.
(11:26):
And think about this, put intocontext, Scott Griffin, is, as
far as I know, the onlymillionaire who's ever bailed
out, any sort of Canadianpublishing entity.
And if this were to be repeatedby an a millionaire in the
States or in Canada to somehow,get a whole bunch of independent
(11:48):
book books underneath, Reese'seyes and Gwyneth Paltrow's eyes
and actually have an independent, publisher book club e pisode
or a feature that would helpjust breakthrough what, two or
300, 400 publishers in NorthAmerica, that would benefit from
(12:08):
having like millions ofpotential book buyers, r ealize
that there's more than justthose big five, those big,
publishers with the money whocan pay to take R eese's p
ublicists out for lunch and say,we really want these three
novels in the next list.
You know, I can't do that.
I don't know Reese's handlers.
And I don't, I can't fly to theStates-- and I don't really want
(12:32):
to,
Sam Hiyate (12:33):
Okay.
Guys, I think the only optionleft is we have to start our own
book club.
I think that's the way to gohere.
Thanks so much.
Thanks so much.
Diane Terrana (12:42):
Thank you, Sam, Stacy and Nathaniel.
Stacey Kondla (12:45):
Thank you.
Nathaniel Moore (12:47):
Goodbye.
Thank you, everyone.
It's been great talking to you.
Sam Hiyate (13:02):
One of the biggest and most influential of all the
book lists is Obama's.
He's released his annual pickssince 2008.
In this latest summer one.
I've asked three of my favoriteindustry insiders to go through
it, book by book...
(13:24):
With me today is Diane Terrana,Executive Editor at The Rights
Factory.
Diane Terrana (13:29):
Great to be here.
Sam Hiyate (13:31):
Kathryn Willms, who is an agent at The Rights
Factory also,.
Kathryn Willms (13:34):
Hello, everyone.
Sam Hiyate (13:37):
And we have Chris Houston, who is here just at the
last minute.
He just landed.
And, he's a really funny salesguy from Dundurn and, or at
least he seems funny so far.
Chris Houston (13:47):
Great to be here and have the trust of others.
Sam Hiyate (13:49):
Awesome.
So I'm going to give you thebook with a quick logline.
I'll be honest.
I haven't read these books.
All I'm going on in a lot ofcases is the title and the
summary that I read according toCNN.
So once I do that, I'm going topick the person and then we'll
get a yes or no.
And then a reason why they feelthe way they do.
(14:09):
So first book is, At Night AllBlood Is Black.
This is a story of a Black guyfighting for the French in World
War One.
I would say normally he wouldprobably get shafted, but if
Obama picked this book, there'sprobably a happy redemptive
ending.
So Diane, what do you think?
Diane Terrana (14:27):
Okay.
So first I wanted to just givemy methods.
I read the Amazon description.
I Googled the authors and I wentinto the"Look Inside" feature on
Amazon to read the first coupleof pages.
Sam Hiyate (14:37):
That's a lot more work than I did, just to be
clear.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Okay.
I like world war novels.
This one brings a fresh voiceand a perspective with the
Senegalese angle.
I loved the first couple ofpages.
I love the mystery and the voicethat jumped off the page.
The author is a historian, whichI love because I love historical
novels to be accurate.
So it's a definite yes.
Sam Hiyate (14:59):
Awesome.
Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (15:02):
Yeah.
So I think I need to add acouple of disclaimers here after
Diane's putting us to shame.
I did less research than that.
And also, I will read anything.
So this is all kind of a bit ofa theoretical exercise.
The other thing I should say isthat, if it was like lying on a
(15:23):
table in a cabin, yes.
I'm going to be like, I'm notdiscerning, I don't think in
these ways.
But, then I like to complain ifI don't like it, obviously.
And the other disclaimer, isthat, I think Obama might have
good taste.
So I just assume if I say, I'mnot going to read something, I'm
probably wrong because he'spicked some great books in the
past.
Anyways, this book does lookquite interesting.
(15:44):
I also like Diane really enjoyWorld War One books and
descriptions.
And I love that this is a bit ofa cool and different take on it.
Definitely a fascinating historyI don't know anything about.
So I guess I'm saying yes, but Iwould have to be like in a mood
for it because, I don't know ifI have Sam's, faith in the
(16:04):
redemptive arc.
Sam Hiyate (16:05):
All right, Chris.
Chris Houston (16:06):
Yeah.
You know, count me in on thisone.
My, strategies are a lot lessdeep than Diane's and, and, not
nearly as open-minded as Kathrynwho'll read anything.
Where have I found myself today?
This is like a hell of bettereducated people.
But I will say that I want toread this book.
(16:27):
I do not like books about thewar.
It's too much for my smallbrain, but I do like a book that
has a quote from Ali Smith, oneof my favorite writers.
And she said," At Night, AllBlood Is Black...." She had this
to say,"But it is so incantatoryand visceral, I don't think I'll
ever forget it." I'm in, takeall my money.
(16:52):
If Ali Smith, w ho i s one ofthe great writers of the modern
age, is not forgetting thisbook, that's all I need to know,
but the fact that it's onObama's l ist too, when he
calls, I'll tell him that'sgreat.
But Ali Smith got t o it first,so yes.
Solid yes.
Sam Hiyate (17:07):
Awesome.
Okay.
The second book, Land Of BigNumbers by Ta-Ping Chen.
This reads like a Dubliners forChina.
We're going to start with Christhis time.
Chris Houston (17:20):
You know what, continuing my scientific
approach, I love the cover ofthis book.
I'm a huge believer-- that wholething about not judging a book
by its cover.
The cover is magnificent.
Ta-Ping Chen is a Wall StreetJournal writer.
This is her first novel, shortstories, 10 short stories.
China sounds very exotic andinteresting to me now.
(17:40):
I've never been there.
So I would love to read this andfind out more and of course,
great cover.
I'm going to enjoy looking atit.
That's a plus.
Diane Terrana (17:50):
All right, Diane.
Okay.
It's a subject that interestsme.
The author is a journalist.
She knows her stuff.
The writing is so sharp and theopening of the first story, is
underlaid with a real bitingirony that I loved.
She's a debut author.
It would normally be aresounding yes if it were a
(18:10):
novel, but it's a collection ofshort stories and I just get
engaged, then they end.
Then I'm sad.
So this is a sad no.
Sam Hiyate (18:20):
Okay.
Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (18:22):
Yeah.
Likewise, I'm not a fan of shortstories and I always wonder if
that makes me a bad person.
I like, in fact, I like whenthey're so long and ambitious,
like The Three Body Problem,which has this-- which goes to
the end of time and theuniverse, and it has this
fascinating description of thecultural revolution in China.
So actually it really piqued myinterest in, and I wanted to
learn more about this sort ofmonolith of the state of China
(18:45):
and all these sorts of things.
Um, so maybe, but to be honest,I'm way more likely to read like
a science fiction or journalismon this topic to learn more.
Sam Hiyate (18:55):
Okay.
Well, we have to be honest here.
That's great.
You guys are saying shortstories can be a tough time.
Next up, Empire of Pain byPatrick Radden Keefe.
All I can say about this is it'snot about the Trump
organization.
So Kathryn, you go first.
Kathryn Willms (19:14):
Oh, hard yes.
On this one.
I loved his last book on theIrish Troubles, Say Nothing.
It was just so much fun and Ijust feel like the opiod crisis
is just something that we justdon't have a full handle on, or
I don't anyways.
And, and also like justcapitalism and the ability of
just individual people andfamilies to just have this
(19:34):
terrible ability to harmsociety.
Definitely interested.
Sam Hiyate (19:40):
Okay, Chris?
Chris Houston (19:41):
Yeah, when Barack called and told me about this
one, I was a little bit, ah, youknow, America, it's American
history.
It's, a family, it's all kindsof stuff that I feel like I'm
reading already in the news.
So, I'm saving, my opportunityfor another title.
So I would pass on this one.
It's not taking me enough out ofthe world, as I'd like,
Sam Hiyate (20:04):
Okay, Diane.
Diane Terrana (20:06):
So I've been following the saga, of this
family and their depravedindifference to humanity.
I just discovered last week,none of them are going to jail.
They're not even beingcriminally prosecuted and
they're allowing them to pony up$4.5 billion to pay for what
they've done.
All the misery and deaths.
(20:26):
Right now, I can't deal with therage this book will evoke in me.
So it's a down the line, maybe.
Sam Hiyate (20:33):
Got it, got it.
Okay.
Next up, Clara And The Sun byKazuo Ishiguro.
This is basically Toy Story, butinstead of a toy, it's an A.I.
And it's written by a Nobelprizewinner instead of the
Disney guys.
So, Kathryn, let's hear fromyou.
Kathryn Willms (20:50):
Yeah, I think it's a, no.
I saw this compared to the movieHer with Joaquin Phoenix, and I
did not enjoy that movie.
I realized that I don't care ifrobots find love.
I don't care if people loverobots, but I don't want to hear
about it.
I just want people to keep theirrobot love to themselves.
it is Ishiguro but, so I'mprobably being an idiot.
And I do have The Buried Giantat my night side table right
(21:11):
now, so I will try a differentIshiguro
Sam Hiyate (21:15):
Okay.
Diane?
Diane Terrana (21:17):
Yeah.
I wasn't terribly thrilled bythe concept.
Maybe Stephen Hawking has turnedme off of artificial
intelligence, by scaring meabout it.
Sam Hiyate (21:26):
Because he says it's going to be the end of us all.
Diane Terrana (21:28):
Yeah.
I read the first couple ofpages.
I thought I would love itactually, because it is Ishiguro
and I didn't.
So it's a no.
Sam Hiyate (21:36):
Okay Chris.
Chris Houston (21:37):
Yeah, I like this.
Sam Hiyate (21:38):
I put you purposely after Diane.
Chris Houston (21:40):
Yeah.
I'm not making any moves in thisgame unless Diane talks first,
that's going to be booked for mynew contract.
So, you know, I like thisartificial friend thing.
I did not like Her, the film orshe, or whichever one that was.
It was just bad, JoaquinPhoenix.
Nice try.
This feels different, somehow.
It feels like a more literaryupscale upmarket version of
(22:00):
that.
And It's artificial friend too.
I mean, who, honestly, ifthey're honest with themselves,
doesn't need an artificialfriend.
I would like more of this.
I wanna explore that, too.
And the cover kind of gives me abit of a Logan's Run feel, you
know, with the hand, the starthat's blinking.
So it's ticking off all my sortof pop culture boxes in a good
way.
Sam Hiyate (22:21):
Oh my god, Logan's Run.
You're bringing me back a longway.
Um, okay.
Finally, now this is where Ifeel like Obama is a fan of
Spinal Tap, because he couldhave had 10, but he had to go to
11.
He found that guitar that hadthe 11.
So number 11 on the list isIntimacies by Katie Kitamura.
(22:41):
I actually would read this too,because what it sounds like is
you've got this interpreter thatgoes to the international court
at the Hague and gets involvedin a bunch of intrigues.
So it's kind of like amodern-day Jane Austen novel.
It seems like at the end of theday, it seems ultra literary,
and that it's going to be abouther finding meaning in her life,
the way that all the Austencharacters do and possibly a
(23:03):
relationship.
I'm gonna start with Chris thistime.
So you don't, you don't haveDiane's benefit of--
Chris Houston (23:10):
Yeah, I'm out to dry on this one, but this was
the first one I picked from thelist, actually.
I went backwards.
If Obama was going to be SpinalTap and start at 11, I'm going
to book 11 right away.
You know, it's the one that heneeded to have on that list.
And, what I did, my strategy wasto read some reviews and the
words,"Sparse, millennial andnomadic," kept coming up.
And I think really, as much asTwitter was about people
(23:32):
communicating, I think it was atool for authors to really hone
their craft.
So I love this idea of sparsemillennial writing.
It makes me feel like I'm goingto log into someone's Twitter
account and read somethingreally, really wonderful and
disturbing, in a novel format.
So I have very, very high hopesfor this one-- they may not get
met, but I'm starting in a goodplace with it.
Sam Hiyate (23:54):
Awesome, Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (23:57):
Yeah.
This one, I'm also interestedthat they-- all I really read
was one word, one review, and itsaid"Cuskian," after Rachel
Cusk.
I now use the word Cuskian in mylife.
And if something is Cuskian,then I am a hard yes to it.
Sam Hiyate (24:11):
Great.
And then Diane, we'll end withyou.
Diane Terrana (24:14):
I'm the dissenter.
I like the setting.
I like the concept.
Love the idea of the maincharacter, but the description
made me think it's an episodicnovel.
I don't like episodic novels.
So I decided, okay, my decisionwill rest on the opening pages
and there I was still-- theywere good, but not brilliant.
(24:35):
So I'm actually still waffling.
Haven't got an answer for thisone, still thinking about it.
Sam Hiyate (24:38):
Perfect.
So thanks everybody.
I'm going to find a way to getthis to Obama.
We might have to go through thisguy called Biden, but I think we
can do it.
Diane Terrana (24:47):
This was fun.
Thank you guys for coming on anddiscussing this, Chris and
Kathryn.
That was fabulous.
Kathryn Willms (24:53):
Thank you.
Chris Houston (24:55):
Yeah, hopelessly outclassed, but I learned a lot.
And, I look forward to readingyour choices.
Now you've sold me on all ofthem.
Sam Hiyate (25:04):
Well, that's episode two folks.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks to everyone whoparticipated.
And I want to also thank ouramazing producer, Andrew Kaufman
, and, heads up-- stay tuned forepisode three, which will
feature a panel discussion ontransparency in the publishing
and book world.
Hello, welcome to Agent Provocateur episode 2.
I'm Sam Hiyate, founder and CEOof The Rights Factory.
This week, Obama's summerreading list...
Kathryn Willms (00:13):
Hard yes, on this one.
I loved his last book on theIrish troubles, Say Nothing--
Sam Hiyate (00:21):
But first, we're having a panel discussion about
the pros and cons of the new andmassively growing trend of
celebrity book clubs.
O.M.G.
If you're like me, you'rewondering where all these book
clubs are coming from.
Are they here to stay?
(00:41):
Do they actually help or hurtreaders?
I mean, it's likely they're goodfor publishing, but readers,
literature.
To take a closer look.
We've assembled a crack team ofindustry insiders.
With me today, we have my co-host, and Executive Editor, at
the Rights Factory, DianeTerrana.
Diane Terrana (01:01):
Good morning.
Good to be here.
Sam Hiyate (01:04):
We have Stacy Kondla, who's also an agent at
the Rights Factory, and we'll bespeaking a lot about her past
and somewhat current career as abookseller.
Stacey Kondla (01:16):
Hi Sam.
Thank you.
Sam Hiyate (01:17):
And, finally we have , I guess he's now known as a
gadfly, but I just know him asNathaniel Moore, book publicist
and author and general wit andliterary guy.
Nathaniel Moore (01:33):
Hello.
Sam Hiyate (01:35):
So it looks like book clubs are here to stay.
I guess my first question is,what does this mean for, I guess
what does it mean forbooksellers?
Because I think the publishersare happy that if everybody's
talking about books, it's goodfor writers, It's good for them.
It's good for book sales.
(01:56):
Stacy, why don't we start withyou, having worked, in
bookselling for a period oftime.
Stacey Kondla (02:04):
Yeah.
I mean, overall, anything thatsells books is a good thing for
booksellers too, right, not justthe publishers, but sellers want
to sell books.
I think the other question thatcomes from that question though,
is, is this a good thing forliterature as a whole, right?
Like, that's the big question.
And I think it has multipleanswers, right?
(02:27):
Like, so overall, yes, they area great thing.
People are reading.
People are talking about books.
Super awesome.
We love that.
I feel like the problem isthough, is they're all talking
about the same books and I lovethat quote by Ishiguro-- I'm
paraphrasing here-- but it's,"Ifyou only read what everybody
else is reading, you can onlythink what everyone else is
(02:48):
thinking."
Sam Hiyate (02:50):
That's exactly what my concern is.
Stacey Kondla (02:52):
That's where the problem comes in.
Exactly.
So I worry that we're justgetting, you know, these lists
of books that are similar,right?
Because they're catering to aspecific kind of reader.
And I don't think that the bookclubs overall challenge readers
to step outside of their comfortzones.
And that's a bad thing.
Diane Terrana (03:13):
Yeah, I'd like to jump in here with one of my pet
peeves, which is, Heather'sPicks.
Now I've seen her called theliterary authority in the
country.
And, I'm just baffled by that.
Why would Heather Reisman be aliterary authority?
She's not a writer.
Well, she does have a book outnow co-written with a cookbook
(03:35):
author.
I'm still not calling her awriter.
She's not a reviewer.
She's not an English professor.
She's never written a review asfar as I can see.
And I've looked, she's never hadto put her thoughts together to
explain, to articulate, why shelikes a book.
So she slaps a sticker on it, abook she loves.
I certainly believe she readsthem-- many people don't-- she
(03:59):
slaps the sticker on, or getsher minions to slap stickers on,
and we're supposed to go, Oh myGod.
Yes.
We all have to buy this book.
I don't get it.
She's certainly not SheilaRogers.
She's not really sharing herthoughts on anything.
Just expecting us to go,"Youlove it, Heather.
So I better go out and buy it."
Stacey Kondla (04:22):
And it works at Indigo.
People buy them like crazy.
Sam Hiyate (04:27):
Let me ask Nathaniel -- Nathaniel, what's your sense
of this?
You're a writer too.
You're a publicist in the bookworld.
Nathaniel Moore (04:33):
Yeah.
I wouldn't worry Diane, too muchabout Heather, finding out
anything you've said because wehave no proof that she has
actually uses the Internet, butI would like to say, all joking
aside that, what we areexperiencing now, in my opinion,
are the obvious next steps, forour culture to avoid reviewing
(04:58):
books at any cost.
Someone with a grade leveleducation can cut and paste
catalog copy and put together alist.
It's anti-- well, I don't evenneed to say"anti"-- these book
blogs, which the successful onesI would say, are staunchly
(05:18):
American, but of course, Canada,you know, we're going to be
emulating them to some degree,but I really think that these
lists, are going to replaceawards, or be as important as
awards.
I know for a fact havingmeetings with producers at CBC
and other media factions thatthese lists are things that
publishers and authors obsessabout.
(05:39):
And I know for a fact that whenone of my authors isn't on the
list, I'll get, I'll get a call.
Like, why didn't they pick me?
Why aren't I, one of 500 newnovels coming out this fall?
People like the lists.
Sam Hiyate (05:51):
So the danger is going back to this homogeneity
argument, is that theseinfluencers and book club people
, have such power.
They're not, in my mind, I don'tsee them using it to support
that small press book or thatdebut novel that nobody's ever
heard of, that they love.
I feel they're just promotingthe same stuff.
The big books from the bigauthors that they already know,
(06:14):
that's very low risk becausethey can't afford the risk in a
way.
Stacey Kondla (06:18):
Yeah.
And that's my point, right?
That I, that I made at thebeginning is it, you know, it's,
it's the same kind of books thatthey're recommending over and
over.
Out of all of the book clubsthat are out there right now, I
do think that Reese is offeringthe broadest selection of genres
and types of books.
She does mix it up, and she isrecommending YA novels as well,
which is awesome.
But again, they're all from likebig publishers, right?
(06:40):
I don't see any of thesecelebrity book club lists
promoting small press bookswhere it could be seriously
life-changing for a press.
It's not life-changing for thebig four.
Diane Terrana (06:51):
So you just wonder what kind of lobbying is
going on behind the scenes?
I mean, I just took a look atHeather's recent picks.
The first seven I checked outare all from huge publishers.
So, I'm assuming there is biglobbying going on behind the
scenes and the publishers withthe big money and the power are
getting their book lists infront of these influencers.
Stacey Kondla (07:12):
Yeah.
But then it also comes back tothe readers.
Okay.
So readers are buying into it,though.
And we're talking that thepeople that buy from these lists
are your typical consumer.
They are the average reader thatjust picks up a book for
entertainment or picks up a bookbecause they heard their best
friend read it, and they want totalk about it.
(07:32):
Those are the kinds of readerswe're talking about, that buy
off of these lists.
Nathaniel Moore (07:36):
But that's the sinister thing that's going on.
Stacey Kondla (07:38):
Yeah.
And it's not, you know, the morediscerning owners.
Nathaniel Moore (07:41):
It's data mining.
Stacey Kondla (07:41):
Yeah.
And different readers will buydifferent books, right.
So the book club buyers are notthe only readers out there, but
they're definitely the biggestpart of the market.
Right.
And they want to be reading thesame things because they want to
feel like they're a part ofsomething and they want to have
those discussions, and theydon't want to feel like they
(08:03):
missed out because they didn'tread this book that everybody
else has read.
So...
Sam Hiyate (08:08):
Stacy, you were saying that your feeling was,
some of the clubs, at least atthe store that you're at part
-time, which is an indie store--how, do the different book clubs
or lists, how do they play outon the front lines?
Stacey Kondla (08:23):
I feel like overall, different book clubs do
do differently at different booksellers, right?
Like if we're talking aboutphysical bookstores, different
book clubs are going to dobetter at one store than other
stores, depending on thebookstores, demographics, and
the kinds of books that theyspecialize in.
Right?
So the book store that I workat, it's an independent.
(08:45):
It does actually specialize inbook club books, and we sell
boatloads of them.
Reese picks do really, reallywell at the bookstore that I
work at.
Oprah picks tend to do a littleless well, and obviously we
don't showcase Heather's picks.
Diane Terrana (09:03):
But you did work at Indigo at one time.
Stacey Kondla (09:04):
I did work at Indigo and Heather's Picks sold
like hotcakes.
And, it's partly because Indigocustomers know who Heather is.
And there's that great big inyour face Heather's Pick table
at the front of the store,driving those titles.
Diane Terrana (09:18):
Any table right at the front of the store may
attract attention.
Whether they had gold stickersaffixed to the jackets or not.
Is it just intellectual lazinesson the part of readers?
Stacey Kondla (09:30):
Well, again, it goes back to why are people
reading?
And you have to understand thatthe bulk of the readers out
there aren't reading becausethey're literary experts and
they want to do a literarycritique on a book that they
read.
They are entertainmentconsumers.
They want to be entertained.
Diane Terrana (09:48):
But I'm an entertainment consumer.
I don't want to do critiques onthe books I read-- I do
critiques on the books I edit.
I just love to enjoy a book, butI thought--
Stacey Kondla (09:57):
Average readers read at a different level.
Average readers read at adifferent level.
They read differently thanpeople who work in the book
industry.
It's just the cold hard fact ofit.
They don't read the way we read,as industry professionals.
Right.
There are readers out therethough, that will come into the
(10:19):
independent that I work at andlook at a book and go,"Oh, it's
a Reese pick.
I'm not buying that." Or they'lllook at it and go,"Oh, that's a
New York times bestseller.
I'm not buying that.
I want a good book.
I want literature." There arethose readers that exist, but
it's the people that shop thebook clubs are in the majority.
That's what they want.
They want to be told what toread, and they want to be
(10:40):
reading as a group to feel likethey're part of a group.
Nathaniel Moore (10:44):
I think one thing that is positive of the
changing of the guards in bookmedia-- I can't speak for
America-- but I can say inCanada that reviews, the review
culture is pretty much dead.
, Unfortunately, and these bookblogs-- and I'm talking about
traditional reviews innewspapers and entertainment
(11:05):
weeklies that we used to knowabout and rely on and they're
much missed.
But I think that these new bookblogs and podcasts are creating
a lot of pages and a lot ofclick-throughs.
And it's a new way of promotingand sharing books, but obviously
the independent, presses arelacking.
(11:26):
And think about this, put intocontext, Scott Griffin, is, as
far as I know, the onlymillionaire who's ever bailed
out, any sort of Canadianpublishing entity.
And if this were to be repeatedby an a millionaire in the
States or in Canada to somehow,get a whole bunch of independent
(11:48):
book books underneath, Reese'seyes and Gwyneth Paltrow's eyes
and actually have an independent, publisher book club e pisode
or a feature that would helpjust breakthrough what, two or
300, 400 publishers in NorthAmerica, that would benefit from
(12:08):
having like millions ofpotential book buyers, r ealize
that there's more than justthose big five, those big,
publishers with the money whocan pay to take R eese's p
ublicists out for lunch and say,we really want these three
novels in the next list.
You know, I can't do that.
I don't know Reese's handlers.
And I don't, I can't fly to theStates-- and I don't really want
(12:32):
to,
Sam Hiyate (12:33):
Okay.
Guys, I think the only optionleft is we have to start our own
book club.
I think that's the way to gohere.
Thanks so much.
Thanks so much.
Diane Terrana (12:42):
Thank you, Sam, Stacy and Nathaniel.
Stacey Kondla (12:45):
Thank you.
Nathaniel Moore (12:47):
Goodbye.
Thank you, everyone.
It's been great talking to you.
Sam Hiyate (13:02):
One of the biggest and most influential of all the
book lists is Obama's.
He's released his annual pickssince 2008.
In this latest summer one.
I've asked three of my favoriteindustry insiders to go through
it, book by book...
(13:24):
With me today is Diane Terrana,Executive Editor at The Rights
Factory.
Diane Terrana (13:29):
Great to be here.
Sam Hiyate (13:31):
Kathryn Willms, who is an agent at The Rights
Factory also,.
Kathryn Willms (13:34):
Hello, everyone.
Sam Hiyate (13:37):
And we have Chris Houston, who is here just at the
last minute.
He just landed.
And, he's a really funny salesguy from Dundurn and, or at
least he seems funny so far.
Chris Houston (13:47):
Great to be here and have the trust of others.
Sam Hiyate (13:49):
Awesome.
So I'm going to give you thebook with a quick logline.
I'll be honest.
I haven't read these books.
All I'm going on in a lot ofcases is the title and the
summary that I read according toCNN.
So once I do that, I'm going topick the person and then we'll
get a yes or no.
And then a reason why they feelthe way they do.
(14:09):
So first book is, At Night AllBlood Is Black.
This is a story of a Black guyfighting for the French in World
War One.
I would say normally he wouldprobably get shafted, but if
Obama picked this book, there'sprobably a happy redemptive
ending.
So Diane, what do you think?
Diane Terrana (14:27):
Okay.
So first I wanted to just givemy methods.
I read the Amazon description.
I Googled the authors and I wentinto the"Look Inside" feature on
Amazon to read the first coupleof pages.
Sam Hiyate (14:37):
That's a lot more work than I did, just to be
clear.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Okay.
I like world war novels.
This one brings a fresh voiceand a perspective with the
Senegalese angle.
I loved the first couple ofpages.
I love the mystery and the voicethat jumped off the page.
The author is a historian, whichI love because I love historical
novels to be accurate.
So it's a definite yes.
Sam Hiyate (14:59):
Awesome.
Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (15:02):
Yeah.
So I think I need to add acouple of disclaimers here after
Diane's putting us to shame.
I did less research than that.
And also, I will read anything.
So this is all kind of a bit ofa theoretical exercise.
The other thing I should say isthat, if it was like lying on a
(15:23):
table in a cabin, yes.
I'm going to be like, I'm notdiscerning, I don't think in
these ways.
But, then I like to complain ifI don't like it, obviously.
And the other disclaimer, isthat, I think Obama might have
good taste.
So I just assume if I say, I'mnot going to read something, I'm
probably wrong because he'spicked some great books in the
past.
Anyways, this book does lookquite interesting.
(15:44):
I also like Diane really enjoyWorld War One books and
descriptions.
And I love that this is a bit ofa cool and different take on it.
Definitely a fascinating historyI don't know anything about.
So I guess I'm saying yes, but Iwould have to be like in a mood
for it because, I don't know ifI have Sam's, faith in the
(16:04):
redemptive arc.
Sam Hiyate (16:05):
All right, Chris.
Chris Houston (16:06):
Yeah.
You know, count me in on thisone.
My, strategies are a lot lessdeep than Diane's and, and, not
nearly as open-minded as Kathrynwho'll read anything.
Where have I found myself today?
This is like a hell of bettereducated people.
But I will say that I want toread this book.
(16:27):
I do not like books about thewar.
It's too much for my smallbrain, but I do like a book that
has a quote from Ali Smith, oneof my favorite writers.
And she said," At Night, AllBlood Is Black...." She had this
to say,"But it is so incantatoryand visceral, I don't think I'll
ever forget it." I'm in, takeall my money.
(16:52):
If Ali Smith, w ho i s one ofthe great writers of the modern
age, is not forgetting thisbook, that's all I need to know,
but the fact that it's onObama's l ist too, when he
calls, I'll tell him that'sgreat.
But Ali Smith got t o it first,so yes.
Solid yes.
Sam Hiyate (17:07):
Awesome.
Okay.
The second book, Land Of BigNumbers by Ta-Ping Chen.
This reads like a Dubliners forChina.
We're going to start with Christhis time.
Chris Houston (17:20):
You know what, continuing my scientific
approach, I love the cover ofthis book.
I'm a huge believer-- that wholething about not judging a book
by its cover.
The cover is magnificent.
Ta-Ping Chen is a Wall StreetJournal writer.
This is her first novel, shortstories, 10 short stories.
China sounds very exotic andinteresting to me now.
(17:40):
I've never been there.
So I would love to read this andfind out more and of course,
great cover.
I'm going to enjoy looking atit.
That's a plus.
Diane Terrana (17:50):
All right, Diane.
Okay.
It's a subject that interestsme.
The author is a journalist.
She knows her stuff.
The writing is so sharp and theopening of the first story, is
underlaid with a real bitingirony that I loved.
She's a debut author.
It would normally be aresounding yes if it were a
(18:10):
novel, but it's a collection ofshort stories and I just get
engaged, then they end.
Then I'm sad.
So this is a sad no.
Sam Hiyate (18:20):
Okay.
Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (18:22):
Yeah.
Likewise, I'm not a fan of shortstories and I always wonder if
that makes me a bad person.
I like, in fact, I like whenthey're so long and ambitious,
like The Three Body Problem,which has this-- which goes to
the end of time and theuniverse, and it has this
fascinating description of thecultural revolution in China.
So actually it really piqued myinterest in, and I wanted to
learn more about this sort ofmonolith of the state of China
(18:45):
and all these sorts of things.
Um, so maybe, but to be honest,I'm way more likely to read like
a science fiction or journalismon this topic to learn more.
Sam Hiyate (18:55):
Okay.
Well, we have to be honest here.
That's great.
You guys are saying shortstories can be a tough time.
Next up, Empire of Pain byPatrick Radden Keefe.
All I can say about this is it'snot about the Trump
organization.
So Kathryn, you go first.
Kathryn Willms (19:14):
Oh, hard yes.
On this one.
I loved his last book on theIrish Troubles, Say Nothing.
It was just so much fun and Ijust feel like the opiod crisis
is just something that we justdon't have a full handle on, or
I don't anyways.
And, and also like justcapitalism and the ability of
just individual people andfamilies to just have this
(19:34):
terrible ability to harmsociety.
Definitely interested.
Sam Hiyate (19:40):
Okay, Chris?
Chris Houston (19:41):
Yeah, when Barack called and told me about this
one, I was a little bit, ah, youknow, America, it's American
history.
It's, a family, it's all kindsof stuff that I feel like I'm
reading already in the news.
So, I'm saving, my opportunityfor another title.
So I would pass on this one.
It's not taking me enough out ofthe world, as I'd like,
Sam Hiyate (20:04):
Okay, Diane.
Diane Terrana (20:06):
So I've been following the saga, of this
family and their depravedindifference to humanity.
I just discovered last week,none of them are going to jail.
They're not even beingcriminally prosecuted and
they're allowing them to pony up$4.5 billion to pay for what
they've done.
All the misery and deaths.
(20:26):
Right now, I can't deal with therage this book will evoke in me.
So it's a down the line, maybe.
Sam Hiyate (20:33):
Got it, got it.
Okay.
Next up, Clara And The Sun byKazuo Ishiguro.
This is basically Toy Story, butinstead of a toy, it's an A.I.
And it's written by a Nobelprizewinner instead of the
Disney guys.
So, Kathryn, let's hear fromyou.
Kathryn Willms (20:50):
Yeah, I think it's a, no.
I saw this compared to the movieHer with Joaquin Phoenix, and I
did not enjoy that movie.
I realized that I don't care ifrobots find love.
I don't care if people loverobots, but I don't want to hear
about it.
I just want people to keep theirrobot love to themselves.
it is Ishiguro but, so I'mprobably being an idiot.
And I do have The Buried Giantat my night side table right
(21:11):
now, so I will try a differentIshiguro
Sam Hiyate (21:15):
Okay.
Diane?
Diane Terrana (21:17):
Yeah.
I wasn't terribly thrilled bythe concept.
Maybe Stephen Hawking has turnedme off of artificial
intelligence, by scaring meabout it.
Sam Hiyate (21:26):
Because he says it's going to be the end of us all.
Diane Terrana (21:28):
Yeah.
I read the first couple ofpages.
I thought I would love itactually, because it is Ishiguro
and I didn't.
So it's a no.
Sam Hiyate (21:36):
Okay Chris.
Chris Houston (21:37):
Yeah, I like this.
Sam Hiyate (21:38):
I put you purposely after Diane.
Chris Houston (21:40):
Yeah.
I'm not making any moves in thisgame unless Diane talks first,
that's going to be booked for mynew contract.
So, you know, I like thisartificial friend thing.
I did not like Her, the film orshe, or whichever one that was.
It was just bad, JoaquinPhoenix.
Nice try.
This feels different, somehow.
It feels like a more literaryupscale upmarket version of
(22:00):
that.
And It's artificial friend too.
I mean, who, honestly, ifthey're honest with themselves,
doesn't need an artificialfriend.
I would like more of this.
I wanna explore that, too.
And the cover kind of gives me abit of a Logan's Run feel, you
know, with the hand, the starthat's blinking.
So it's ticking off all my sortof pop culture boxes in a good
way.
Sam Hiyate (22:21):
Oh my god, Logan's Run.
You're bringing me back a longway.
Um, okay.
Finally, now this is where Ifeel like Obama is a fan of
Spinal Tap, because he couldhave had 10, but he had to go to
11.
He found that guitar that hadthe 11.
So number 11 on the list isIntimacies by Katie Kitamura.
(22:41):
I actually would read this too,because what it sounds like is
you've got this interpreter thatgoes to the international court
at the Hague and gets involvedin a bunch of intrigues.
So it's kind of like amodern-day Jane Austen novel.
It seems like at the end of theday, it seems ultra literary,
and that it's going to be abouther finding meaning in her life,
the way that all the Austencharacters do and possibly a
(23:03):
relationship.
I'm gonna start with Chris thistime.
So you don't, you don't haveDiane's benefit of--
Chris Houston (23:10):
Yeah, I'm out to dry on this one, but this was
the first one I picked from thelist, actually.
I went backwards.
If Obama was going to be SpinalTap and start at 11, I'm going
to book 11 right away.
You know, it's the one that heneeded to have on that list.
And, what I did, my strategy wasto read some reviews and the
words,"Sparse, millennial andnomadic," kept coming up.
And I think really, as much asTwitter was about people
(23:32):
communicating, I think it was atool for authors to really hone
their craft.
So I love this idea of sparsemillennial writing.
It makes me feel like I'm goingto log into someone's Twitter
account and read somethingreally, really wonderful and
disturbing, in a novel format.
So I have very, very high hopesfor this one-- they may not get
met, but I'm starting in a goodplace with it.
Sam Hiyate (23:54):
Awesome, Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (23:57):
Yeah.
This one, I'm also interestedthat they-- all I really read
was one word, one review, and itsaid"Cuskian," after Rachel
Cusk.
I now use the word Cuskian in mylife.
And if something is Cuskian,then I am a hard yes to it.
Sam Hiyate (24:11):
Great.
And then Diane, we'll end withyou.
Diane Terrana (24:14):
I'm the dissenter.
I like the setting.
I like the concept.
Love the idea of the maincharacter, but the description
made me think it's an episodicnovel.
I don't like episodic novels.
So I decided, okay, my decisionwill rest on the opening pages
and there I was still-- theywere good, but not brilliant.
(24:35):
So I'm actually still waffling.
Haven't got an answer for thisone, still thinking about it.
Sam Hiyate (24:38):
Perfect.
So thanks everybody.
I'm going to find a way to getthis to Obama.
We might have to go through thisguy called Biden, but I think we
can do it.
Diane Terrana (24:47):
This was fun.
Thank you guys for coming on anddiscussing this, Chris and
Kathryn.
That was fabulous.
Kathryn Willms (24:53):
Thank you.
Chris Houston (24:55):
Yeah, hopelessly outclassed, but I learned a lot.
And, I look forward to readingyour choices.
Now you've sold me on all ofthem.
Sam Hiyate (25:04):
Well, that's episode two folks.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks to everyone whoparticipated.
And I want to also thank ouramazing producer, Andrew Kaufman
, and, heads up-- stay tuned forepisode three, which will
feature a panel discussion ontransparency in the publishing
and book world.
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