August 17, 2021 • 26 mins
This week we discuss transparency in publishing, fiction vs memoir and Britney Spears' publishing history. Our panel discussion features author, founder and publisher of Sutherland House, Ken Whyte; Co-Publisher and editor of ECW Press, Jack David; and The Rights Factory’s own Executive Editor Diane Terrana. Diane also weighs in on the line between fiction and memoir and TRF agent Kathryn Willms gives us an oral history of Britney and books.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:05):
Hello, welcome to episode 3 of Agent Provocateur.
This week, we take a look atwhat 20 years of publishing
books about Britney Spears cantell us about our culture, and
maybe ourselves.
Kathryn Willms (00:20):
She definitely has lipped-synched, but to me,
that's somewhat symbolic.
She literally has no voice.
She's just this body on thestage that people use.
And they comment on.
Sam Hiyate (00:28):
Where's the line between memoir and fiction?
Rights Factory Executive Editor,and author, Diane Terrana, helps
us figure it out.
Diane Terrana (00:36):
Okay.
There isn't a lot of distancebetween the facts and the
fiction, and by the way, thatgoat's never going to refute
your veracity.
Sam Hiyate (00:43):
First, we take a hard look at the pros and cons
of transparency in bookpublishing.
Hi, everyone.
welcome to our panel ontransparency.
So this panel was started by anagent, Carly Watters from PS
Literary, who, on Twitter, wastalking about toxic positivity
(01:07):
and publishing.
And she went quickly from toxicpositivity to transparency
between publishers and authors.
And of course, as agents we'rein the middle of it all.
And, it reminded me of when Ihad lunch with an author from
Penguin Random House, when theyfirst released their PRH Portal
(01:27):
for authors about 10 years ago.
And it was a funny anecdotebecause the editor said, when we
thought, when we launched thisportal, we thought every once in
a while, the author might go onand see how many books sold that
week or how many books werereturned or whatever.
But when they looked at thedata, which came out pretty
quickly after it was launched,they realized that several,
(01:49):
almost all, the authors werelogging in several times a day
to see what was happening andthat they were so keen on
getting any data, any kind ofsales information.
And, and they thought this issomething we didn't expect, you
know, like, what is happening?
And I said, well, authors haveto wait two years for their book
to come out to get any data.
And then it's like every sixmonths they get a sense of
(02:11):
what's happening.
So of course they're going to goon and there's all that pent up
desire to find out"What'shappening with my book." So from
there, I'm going to start byintroducing our panel today.
We have Diane Terrana, ExecutiveEditor and Author at the Rights
Factory.
Diane Terrana (02:29):
Thanks Sam.
Great to be here.
Sam Hiyate (02:31):
We have Ken White, who is a brilliant journalist
and is now a publisher atSutherland House.
Ken Whyte (02:36):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (02:39):
And Jack David, co-founder of ECW press.
Jack David (02:43):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (02:44):
Okay guys.
So I'm going to start with, youknow, looking back at this kind
of portal data, I mean, is itvital information for authors to
know how their book is selling,especially their book compared
to other books?
I mean, eventually they'll getan actual number from the
publisher, but how important andhow urgent is this for authors?
Because I feel like thistransparency thing is a kind of
(03:07):
issue between authors andpublishers sometimes.
What do you think, Jack?
Jack David (03:12):
Well, before I saw the PRH listing, I got a lot of
calls from authors who said,"I'mchecking my Amazon.
And this afternoon I was 412,but this morning I was 442.
So what happened, what happenedin the interim?" Authors are
curious about how their booksare doing.
And I think it's publisher'sresponsibility to give them that
(03:34):
kind of information.
The question is whether or notthey have to reach for it or
whether we give it to themwithout asking.
Sam Hiyate (03:42):
That's a good question.
Ken, do you have anything to addto this or comment on?
Ken Whyte (03:47):
I think they do.
I, as an author, want theinformation, and as a publisher,
I try to supply it to mywriters, but you have to be a
bit careful about it because theinformation is not always what
(04:07):
it seems.
You know, you got a certainnumber of books in the
marketplace.
It doesn't mean that they're allsold.
You might get returns.
I think the important thing todo is to be transparent about
the process and also to setexpectations for the writer,
tell them that you'll check inwith them every week or every
(04:31):
two weeks or every month orwhatever the timeline is.
But let them know what you'regoing to do and what you're
going to tell them.
And when the information iscoming and how to handle the
information, because as I sayit, it can be a bit complicated.
Diane Terrana (04:48):
Yeah, and I'll jump in here as an author.
I would say authors are morethan interested.
They're obsessed with theirnumbers.
So if they can find a way tofind them out, they're going to.
I joined up to BookNet throughthe agency with a fellow agent
at The Rights Factory and shewas also an author.
And I can just tell you, I spentway too much time on BookNet,
(05:11):
looking at my sales andcomparing them with every author
I knew, and all the books thatcame out when mine came out.
And to what end, I've askedmyself after I finally got rid
of BookNet, to what end did Ieven do that?
Sam Hiyate (05:25):
Jack?
Jack David (05:27):
I think the important thing is that you're
getting a very skewed view fromBookNet because you've got ebook
sales, you've got audio booksales, in many cases.
You've got special sales, you'vegot authors own sales.
You've got sales that go outwhen somebody walks in the front
door of our office-- and they'renot getting all that
information,
Ken Whyte (05:48):
Or Amazon sales for that matter.
I mean, they're very poor attracking Amazon and for a lot of
writers, that's half thebusiness.
It goes back to the point I'mmaking about having to be clear
with writers about what numbersyou're following and what they
actually mean, because it's notalways clear.
Sam Hiyate (06:10):
Let's go back to Amazon.
Sorry, Diane, what did you say?
Diane Terrana (06:14):
I was just going to say though my, my question to
what end still stands.
So Jack, to what end am I as anauthor getting all this
information?
Jack David (06:24):
Curiosity?
Trying to figure out whether youcan pay your rent in April or
not, who knows?
Sam Hiyate (06:28):
It's a good point.
Authors are always trying tofigure out their place in the
kind of literary firmament,compared to the other authors.
Right?
So there's that kind ofecosystem thing.
I'm going to go back to Amazonthough, which Ken talked about.
So do we feel one of Carly'spoints was that she feels that
Amazon may have access to allthis data that they are just not
(06:50):
sharing with anybody, publishersincluded.
Are you guys feeling left out ofthat Amazon mountain of data?
Ken Whyte (06:58):
Oh, sure.
They know a lot more aboutbuyers of our books than we know
about buyers of our books.
I'd love to have all of thatinformation.
But I don't think Amazon's evergoing to give it up, because
it's the basis of their businessand having a proprietary hold on
that data is really important tothem.
(07:20):
So, nice to have it, but don'thold your breath.
Sam Hiyate (07:26):
Jack, any thoughts?
Jack David (07:29):
We have a book called Happily Ever Older--
pitching a book now-- and thisbook came out the same time as a
health book came u p from awriter at The Globe.
So our author is at The Star,that author is at The Globe.
She always wants to know howshe's doing in comparison with
that book.
And I can tell her, but she, I'mpretty sure, i s selling a lot
(07:50):
more out of special sales thathe is based on his BookNet
numbers.
So, yeah, as Ken says-- as Iwill agree with Ken for once--
it's true, it's complicated.
Diane Terrana (08:04):
If an author could find a way to get that
data, obviously not the Amazondata, but the data you guys have
as publishers, and could dosomething to up their sales,
that would be very obviouslybeneficial, but I'm just not
even sure how much authors whodon't have huge platforms can do
with the information to get outthere and sell their books,
(08:25):
anyway.
I mean, you can do some bookevents.
You can go to literary festivalsif you are invited or get
yourself invited.
But because I was able to tracksome of that before the lockdown
on my book, you know, I couldsee 10, 15 books, maybe 20 books
sell from an event.
And then the little thing goback down again.
So what an author is able to dois pretty limited, unless they
(08:47):
have a huge platform.
Ken Whyte (08:49):
Two points on that.
One is I think that it's reallyfor us as publishers to educate
writers and also our staff andour editors, people who work on
the books, to be aware of salesstats and to care about sales
stats.
Because at the end of the day,that's what keeps us in
(09:10):
business.
And that's what gives themopportunities, gives them jobs.
There can be a kind of a churchand state attitude towards
sales.
You know,"I'm just here tocreate art.
I don't care whether or not theunwashed public wants it or
not." I think we really have toencourage people to like the
sales side of it, to embrace thesales side of it and so on.
(09:35):
As for what they can do about it-- it's true-- there are some
authors without platforms who,can't do much at all.
But every publisher will tellyou, now that they're giving a
leg up to any author who doeshave a platform, and they're
(09:56):
also expecting authors to usetheir platforms to sell books.
So, it's important informationto have whether or not your book
is selling, whether you're in adoldrums, so that you can make
better decisions about how touse your platform.
What events to do, what not todo, how to allocate your time in
(10:19):
order to sell more books.
More information's valuable, tothat end, towards everybody
making the most of anopportunity with a book.
Sam Hiyate (10:32):
Jack, any thoughts?
Jack David (10:34):
If an author is checking and gets really
detailed information and findsout that they've sold 15 copies
at McNally in Saskatoon, butthey sold nothing in Regina.
Then the author can make a moveto try to try to change that and
call up their local store, ifthey're in Regina and say,
"What's going on here?" So yeah,it can be helpful that way--
(10:55):
they're acting as sales agentseffectively.
Sam Hiyate (10:59):
So one of the things that's come to my attention just
from watching the industry-- andthe last maybe five years has
been the most intense-- but I'venoticed that publishers are
recruiting more and more datapeople, data analytics, SEO
optimization.
So is the new world ofpublishing having access to this
data and figuring out how to usedata to sell more books.
(11:20):
And if so, how can authors rideon that?
I'll start with you Jack.
Jack David (11:27):
It's not so much in our case, bringing the authors
into that equation.
But today we were having ameeting about how many, copies
of a book to print.
And we had so much moreinformation than we had seven
years ago, 10 years ago.
We had where they were sellingand we had how much it was going
to cost.
And we have what the authorexpected, and whether we could
(11:49):
do the fancy cover or not.
If we went POD-- all that kindof information, we just did not
have before.
So we're still making a lot ofguesses about how many copies to
print.
I think we're just perhaps a bitmore accurate now than we were.
It's a better model, Sam.
But, one of the books we weretold by our sales reps that they
(12:13):
thought that Indigo was going tocome in for 600.
That was their order.
That was the projection.
But when he actually got theorder a couple of days ago, it
was 99 copies.
Diane Terrana (12:24):
Oh my god.
Jack David (12:26):
So it still comes down to people talking to people
and trying to figure out what'sgoing on.
Sam Hiyate (12:33):
Okay, I'm going to end it on this one question.
Is there enough transparency?
Because I think Carly's originalthought was, transparency in
publishing.
And I feel like you guys aremaybe special in that.
Ken, when you said you wouldtalk to somebody, maybe every
couple of weeks about how theirbook's doing.
That seems like Max Perkinslevel of publishing.
Diane Terrana (12:54):
I was kind of shocked.
Ken Whyte (12:56):
Well, we put together what we call a"welcome package"
for Sutherland House authors andit lays out for them all of this
stuff.
What the expectations are onthem in terms of using their
platform, how best to use them,when to start using them, all
(13:16):
that sort of thing and tellsthem what we're going to do.
And how often we're going tocommunicate with them and who to
communicate with about what, andwe do it in time periods, you
know, the few months before thebook's launched and then tell
them what to expect a few monthsafter the book's launched.
And we've done that mostly inresponse to author requests for
(13:39):
transparency and, it's maybe alittle easier for us because
we're new and we're small.
But I think that over time, aspublishers get used to operating
in a new environment, where theauthors are a lot more involved
in selling the books, it's goingto become necessary, to have
(14:02):
that level of transparency andback and forth between authors.
And, I just published a bookwith Penguin Random House, with
Knopf in New York.
I haven't heard a damn thingfrom them.
I've had one call since the booklaunched, six weeks ago.
Sam Hiyate (14:18):
But, dude, you have the portal!
Ken Whyte (14:21):
That's not really that helpful when you have
questions about, what you couldbe doing and how you could be
doing it, and how you could helptheir efforts.
The portal is not a lot of good.
Sam Hiyate (14:37):
Jack, any final thoughts or Diane?
Jack David (14:39):
Yeah, if we're talking about transparency, I
think we should talk aboutpublisher relationships with
agents and what goes on there.
Sam Hiyate (14:48):
I'm here, I'm here-- talk to me.
I'm here Jack, I'm listening.
Jack David (14:52):
We've had experiences where, for example,
and this doesn't involve youdirectly Sam, where the agent
will say, I'd like my offers bythe middle of August.
And then we make an offer by themiddle of August.
And then they say, well, it'ssummer and not everybody's
around.
So let's extend it to September10th.
(15:12):
And we thought that was thefinal offer, but they just keep
it open.
Sam Hiyate (15:18):
Wait, by the way we've never done that to you.
We wouldn't do that to anybody.
We stick by our dates.
Jack David (15:22):
So the point is that the agent should be transparent
with the publisher, as much asthe publisher is transparent
with the author.
Sam Hiyate (15:30):
That's a good point.
Noted.
Okay, everybody.
Thanks so much, Diane, Ken,Jack, it's a pleasure to have
you on.
I hope you guys come back andgreat talk.
Diane Terrana (15:41):
Yes.
A pleasure gentlemen.
Ken Whyte (15:43):
Thank you, Sam.
Jack David (15:44):
Thank you.
Sam Hiyate (15:47):
Few things in the publishing industry seem as
subjective and slippery as thedifference between memoir and
fiction.
Our own Diane Terrana has somethoughts.
Diane Terrana (16:03):
Hello authors, today, I'm talking about memoir
versus fiction, and the linebetween the two.
I first learned the differencewhen I was in grade four, a
school librarian introduced myclass to a book set in the early
20th century, a story based onthe author's recollections of
her childhood.
It would have been called amemoir except for one scene in
which a goat ate 100 buttonsfrom her dress.
(16:23):
That never happened, hence thebook was a novel.
Many authors, whose stories areclose to their lives, struggle
with the two genres.
Some haven't yet decided whichthey even intend to write and
some want to write memoir, butfind their story doesn't quite
work.
Therefore they want to insertsome fictional elements-- a
clearer arc, stronger plotpoints, perhaps more dynamic
(16:45):
scenes.
These writers frequently saytheir stories are true, but they
have rounded some corners,embellished the truth, taken
liberties or written with an eyeto truth, not facts.
Really?
As an editor, I'm going to focuson those corners.
How sharp were they and howgrounded are they now?
Let's go back to the dress.
(17:06):
The hundred buttons and thegoat.
Well, you say there was a skirt,it had some buttons and there
was a goat sniffing around thehem.
Okay.
There isn't a lot of distancebetween the facts and the
fiction.
And by the way, that goat'snever going to refute your
veracity.
But what if you tell me therewas no dress buttons or goat.
Instead, there was a sweater, azipper and a hamster.
(17:28):
So my question is why substituteat all?
Let's just stick with the facts.
We can tighten the story, shapeit, and I'm sure truth will out.
What if, however, there was noclothing, no fasteners and no
animal.
Well authors, that is fiction.
I'm Diane Terrana, ExecutiveEditor at The Rights Factory.
(17:51):
Thank you for listening.
Sam Hiyate (18:02):
The publishing industry loves nothing more than
doing books about celebrities,but what we at the agency wanted
to know, if you look at all thebooks published about a single
celebrity and by celebrity, Imean, Britney Spears over the
years, what can we learn?
Not just about femalecelebrities-- pop stars in this
(18:24):
case-- but about our culture atlarge.
That's the question we've put toKathryn Willms, Associate Agent
at The Rights Factory, andhere's what she came up with.
So what's your connection toBritney?
How did this start?
Kathryn Willms (18:38):
I feel like I'm a woman of a certain age and I'm
actually the same age as BritneySpears.
And when you're a woman growingup in, my case BC, but if you're
a woman of a certain age, youjust have a natural connection
to Britney Spears, whether youwanted it or not.
And then, I just kind offollowed her over the years.
I wouldn't call myself a superfan, but I would say I'm
(18:59):
invested, you know how sometimesyou just get invested in someone
because they've just been partof your life for, a long time.
So I'm not part of the FreeBritney movement.
But I've been really fascinated,about what's been happening
lately.
And I kind of feel as somebodywho identified as a feminist,
even in high school, you know,Britney Spears has always been a
complicated figure.
And I feel like I've alwaysdefended her in certain ways
(19:24):
when people said her musicwasn't any good.
My husband always says she can'tdance, which drives me crazy.
And my argument is that shechooses not to sometimes-- fair
enough.
But now that now we know thatmight have been a silent
protest.
And then I had a couple otherthoughts about why the stories
caught fire right now.
And one is that I wonder if likeall of us being under lockdown
(19:45):
for a year and a half, ifthere's like a kind of--
Sam Hiyate (19:49):
Kind of, it resonates with us.
It looks like we're under ourown conservatorship.
Kathryn Willms (19:54):
Right?
I kind of feel like in our caseit was, governments, not our
father, but, it does seem likethere's a real surge in empathy,
which I thought was reallyinteresting coming at this
moment.
Sam Hiyate (20:03):
Good, good point.
No, good point.
Kathryn Willms (20:05):
So there's 13 books on Publishers Marketplace
that use Britney Spears names.
Yeah.
So looking at this list, it'skind of fascinating and gives
you a little glimpse ofliterally the last 20 years.
So I had three kind of maintakeaways.
So the first one is (20:18):
Britney is not taken seriously as an
artist.
In 2004, this is actually aphenomenon that's developed in
2004.
She's mentioned in thedescription of a book by James
Dickerson called Go Girl, Go: The Women's Revolution in Music, (20:30):
undefined
and her name is includedalongside Billy Holiday's.
So that was probably a highwatermark for Britney.
This is three years before sheshaves her head and sort of
becomes this person that has--
Sam Hiyate (20:47):
-- is a little more unpredictable.
Kathryn Willms (20:49):
Yeah.
more unpredictable.
And then after that, herpersonal life really takes
precedence in her narrative.
So in 2005, she was named in abook called Trainwreck, about
the women that our society shuns.
And then, you know, it'sinteresting, I think there's
been a little bit of an attemptto sort of, think about her
music again.
Alice Bolin wrote a book aboutthe female body, but she also
(21:12):
wrote a book about"Hit me baby,"Britney's first seminal hit.
She has this article.
She talks about,"Can pop musicbe smart," and looks at it as an
ode to loneliness.
So I wonder whether we'll comeback around again and revision
the music.
But she's always been used as avessel, to make political and
(21:34):
cultural points.
And Billy Corgan, when theSmashing Pumpkins broke up, said
that they had to break upbecause it's hard to keep trying
to fight the good fight againstthe Britneys.
So definitely Britney has notgotten a lot of respect.
Yeah, the good fight.
My second takeaway is she'snever been in control of her own
narrative.
And, as you said, Sam, you know,a lot of people around her have
(21:55):
gotten book deals.
Her mother wrote two books,
Sam Hiyate (22:00):
Her sister,
Kathryn Willms (22:01):
Sister, yeah.
Her mother has one of her bookscalled A Mother's Gift, which is
the worst title.
Makes me very unhappy-- herpersonal trainer.
We have two biographies,including something called an
authorized autobiography.
Sam is that a thing?
Can you even have an"authorized"?
Sam Hiyate (22:16):
I don't think that is the thing, cause I guess
usually if it's, unauthorized,it means you can go dig up
whatever dirt and you don't haveto run it by whoever-- the
person that the book's about.
Kathryn Willms (22:27):
And she's also part of two volumes of a book
called Hollywood Exposed, aboutscandalous secret lives of
superstars, like Angela Jolie,Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears,
Eddie Murphy, and Madonna.
And that list cracked me outbecause it was a bunch of women
and a Black man.
Of course it is.
But I think the point here isthat Britney's voice is not
represented at all, unless youcount her book with her mom,
(22:50):
which I would not.
And you know, I think a lot ofthe women, the starlets of that
day-- Jessica Simpson andChristina Aguilera, Mandy Moore
-- have been allowed to growpast that and respond to some of
the narratives that were writtenabout them.
And B ritney just has neverreally been given t hat choice
and people have just used her inall sorts of ways.
I think watching the framingBritney doc, there's a scene
(23:13):
where she comes out to launchher latest, the Vegas residency,
and she just keeps walking pastthe stage and she doesn't talk
to anyone.
And look, that just struck mebecause I know that Britney gets
a lot-- there's a lot ofdiscourse about her lip-synching
and she definitely haslip-synched, but to me, that's
somewhat symbolic.
She literally has no voice.
She's just this body on thestage that people use and they
(23:33):
comment on.
So I think that's one of the bigtakeaways.
And the third one is, I don'teven know if this needs
elaboration, but we live in asexist society.
Some of the terrible thingsjournalists asked Britney Spears
in the mid two thousands-- abouther virginity, her body, her
mental health, her kids.
Sarah Silverman, and called herkids"mistakes." It's just the
(23:56):
worst stuff to look at.
And, as you said, Sam, one ofthe books on this list is by
Christopher Sihlar and it wassold by the title of The Grilled
Cheese Madonna.
It's about auctions, and one ofthe auctions was for Britney's
pregnancy test.
Sam Hiyate (24:10):
And what was it worth in the end?
Kathryn Willms (24:12):
Honestly, I didn't look it up.
Sam Hiyate (24:13):
Do you remember?
Kathryn Willms (24:14):
Oh my God,
Sam Hiyate (24:16):
It was five, apparently$5,000 US.
Kathryn Willms (24:19):
So it's interesting I think that there's
kind of been a reckoning ofsorts.
I think with Amy Winehouse andthat documentary came out.
And,I think there's been an ideathat all of a sudden, we start
to realize that these narrativesreally can hurt people in really
fundamental ways.
So in some ways, I think this isa really interesting time and I
think the real question thatwe're left with is, she's kind
(24:42):
of found her voice now.
So, does that mean Sam, you'llbe interested in this.
Is there going to be a book?
Is the real question.
Sam Hiyate (24:50):
Like, a real one.
Kathryn Willms (24:53):
Authorized, yes.
Sam Hiyate (24:54):
Where she has found her voice, where she's taken
control of her narrative.
Cause I feel like that's theonly happy ending to this story
-- where she gets out of thisconservatorship, it sounds like
she's under the thumb of herfamily and this whole kind of
empire that manages her moneybecause everybody stands to lose
so much if they're kicked out.
There was one person that theysaid in that New Yorker article
(25:17):
where he was making more thanhalf a million dollars a year,
just managing some small thing.
That was his salary.
Kathryn Willms (25:22):
Yeah.
It's ridiculous.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I'm kind of two minds aboutit.
On one hand, Jessica Simpsonwrote a book about-- she also
sort of got painted in similarways.
It has a similar narrative, andwe're in the book industry.
So we're like always more booksis good, but I also think, you
know, Jia Tolentino makes aninteresting point in an
interview I heard with her,which is that, what you do when
(25:44):
you take away someone's capacityis it's self-perpetuating and
they can lose capacity.
And I think, you know, my hopefor Brittany is not so much that
she takes back her publicnarrative as that she's allowed
to drop out of the publicnarrative if she really wants
to.
Sam Hiyate (25:59):
If she wants.
Yeah.
It's her choice.
All right.
Well thanks so much, Kathryn--that's a lot of Britney really
quickly.
I'm going to have to absorb itall.
And thanks for coming on.
Kathryn Willms (26:10):
My pleasure.
I'm always happy to talk aboutBritney.
I'm excited to see what comesnext and I hope that there's a
little happier ending forBritney here.
Sam Hiyate (26:20):
Well folks, I'm sorry to say that's it for this
week.
Thanks again to all our guestsand our brilliant producer,
Andrew Kaufman.
Tune in next week, when we pairwine writers and books with
author and wine expert, NatalieMacLean, and we discuss the rise
of graphic novels and comicswith Publishers Weekly's own,
(26:41):
Calvin Reid, and writer andartist Ho Che Anderson.
Hello, welcome to episode 3 of Agent Provocateur.
This week, we take a look atwhat 20 years of publishing
books about Britney Spears cantell us about our culture, and
maybe ourselves.
Kathryn Willms (00:20):
She definitely has lipped-synched, but to me,
that's somewhat symbolic.
She literally has no voice.
She's just this body on thestage that people use.
And they comment on.
Sam Hiyate (00:28):
Where's the line between memoir and fiction?
Rights Factory Executive Editor,and author, Diane Terrana, helps
us figure it out.
Diane Terrana (00:36):
Okay.
There isn't a lot of distancebetween the facts and the
fiction, and by the way, thatgoat's never going to refute
your veracity.
Sam Hiyate (00:43):
First, we take a hard look at the pros and cons
of transparency in bookpublishing.
Hi, everyone.
welcome to our panel ontransparency.
So this panel was started by anagent, Carly Watters from PS
Literary, who, on Twitter, wastalking about toxic positivity
(01:07):
and publishing.
And she went quickly from toxicpositivity to transparency
between publishers and authors.
And of course, as agents we'rein the middle of it all.
And, it reminded me of when Ihad lunch with an author from
Penguin Random House, when theyfirst released their PRH Portal
(01:27):
for authors about 10 years ago.
And it was a funny anecdotebecause the editor said, when we
thought, when we launched thisportal, we thought every once in
a while, the author might go onand see how many books sold that
week or how many books werereturned or whatever.
But when they looked at thedata, which came out pretty
quickly after it was launched,they realized that several,
(01:49):
almost all, the authors werelogging in several times a day
to see what was happening andthat they were so keen on
getting any data, any kind ofsales information.
And, and they thought this issomething we didn't expect, you
know, like, what is happening?
And I said, well, authors haveto wait two years for their book
to come out to get any data.
And then it's like every sixmonths they get a sense of
(02:11):
what's happening.
So of course they're going to goon and there's all that pent up
desire to find out"What'shappening with my book." So from
there, I'm going to start byintroducing our panel today.
We have Diane Terrana, ExecutiveEditor and Author at the Rights
Factory.
Diane Terrana (02:29):
Thanks Sam.
Great to be here.
Sam Hiyate (02:31):
We have Ken White, who is a brilliant journalist
and is now a publisher atSutherland House.
Ken Whyte (02:36):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (02:39):
And Jack David, co-founder of ECW press.
Jack David (02:43):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (02:44):
Okay guys.
So I'm going to start with, youknow, looking back at this kind
of portal data, I mean, is itvital information for authors to
know how their book is selling,especially their book compared
to other books?
I mean, eventually they'll getan actual number from the
publisher, but how important andhow urgent is this for authors?
Because I feel like thistransparency thing is a kind of
(03:07):
issue between authors andpublishers sometimes.
What do you think, Jack?
Jack David (03:12):
Well, before I saw the PRH listing, I got a lot of
calls from authors who said,"I'mchecking my Amazon.
And this afternoon I was 412,but this morning I was 442.
So what happened, what happenedin the interim?" Authors are
curious about how their booksare doing.
And I think it's publisher'sresponsibility to give them that
(03:34):
kind of information.
The question is whether or notthey have to reach for it or
whether we give it to themwithout asking.
Sam Hiyate (03:42):
That's a good question.
Ken, do you have anything to addto this or comment on?
Ken Whyte (03:47):
I think they do.
I, as an author, want theinformation, and as a publisher,
I try to supply it to mywriters, but you have to be a
bit careful about it because theinformation is not always what
(04:07):
it seems.
You know, you got a certainnumber of books in the
marketplace.
It doesn't mean that they're allsold.
You might get returns.
I think the important thing todo is to be transparent about
the process and also to setexpectations for the writer,
tell them that you'll check inwith them every week or every
(04:31):
two weeks or every month orwhatever the timeline is.
But let them know what you'regoing to do and what you're
going to tell them.
And when the information iscoming and how to handle the
information, because as I sayit, it can be a bit complicated.
Diane Terrana (04:48):
Yeah, and I'll jump in here as an author.
I would say authors are morethan interested.
They're obsessed with theirnumbers.
So if they can find a way tofind them out, they're going to.
I joined up to BookNet throughthe agency with a fellow agent
at The Rights Factory and shewas also an author.
And I can just tell you, I spentway too much time on BookNet,
(05:11):
looking at my sales andcomparing them with every author
I knew, and all the books thatcame out when mine came out.
And to what end, I've askedmyself after I finally got rid
of BookNet, to what end did Ieven do that?
Sam Hiyate (05:25):
Jack?
Jack David (05:27):
I think the important thing is that you're
getting a very skewed view fromBookNet because you've got ebook
sales, you've got audio booksales, in many cases.
You've got special sales, you'vegot authors own sales.
You've got sales that go outwhen somebody walks in the front
door of our office-- and they'renot getting all that
information,
Ken Whyte (05:48):
Or Amazon sales for that matter.
I mean, they're very poor attracking Amazon and for a lot of
writers, that's half thebusiness.
It goes back to the point I'mmaking about having to be clear
with writers about what numbersyou're following and what they
actually mean, because it's notalways clear.
Sam Hiyate (06:10):
Let's go back to Amazon.
Sorry, Diane, what did you say?
Diane Terrana (06:14):
I was just going to say though my, my question to
what end still stands.
So Jack, to what end am I as anauthor getting all this
information?
Jack David (06:24):
Curiosity?
Trying to figure out whether youcan pay your rent in April or
not, who knows?
Sam Hiyate (06:28):
It's a good point.
Authors are always trying tofigure out their place in the
kind of literary firmament,compared to the other authors.
Right?
So there's that kind ofecosystem thing.
I'm going to go back to Amazonthough, which Ken talked about.
So do we feel one of Carly'spoints was that she feels that
Amazon may have access to allthis data that they are just not
(06:50):
sharing with anybody, publishersincluded.
Are you guys feeling left out ofthat Amazon mountain of data?
Ken Whyte (06:58):
Oh, sure.
They know a lot more aboutbuyers of our books than we know
about buyers of our books.
I'd love to have all of thatinformation.
But I don't think Amazon's evergoing to give it up, because
it's the basis of their businessand having a proprietary hold on
that data is really important tothem.
(07:20):
So, nice to have it, but don'thold your breath.
Sam Hiyate (07:26):
Jack, any thoughts?
Jack David (07:29):
We have a book called Happily Ever Older--
pitching a book now-- and thisbook came out the same time as a
health book came u p from awriter at The Globe.
So our author is at The Star,that author is at The Globe.
She always wants to know howshe's doing in comparison with
that book.
And I can tell her, but she, I'mpretty sure, i s selling a lot
(07:50):
more out of special sales thathe is based on his BookNet
numbers.
So, yeah, as Ken says-- as Iwill agree with Ken for once--
it's true, it's complicated.
Diane Terrana (08:04):
If an author could find a way to get that
data, obviously not the Amazondata, but the data you guys have
as publishers, and could dosomething to up their sales,
that would be very obviouslybeneficial, but I'm just not
even sure how much authors whodon't have huge platforms can do
with the information to get outthere and sell their books,
(08:25):
anyway.
I mean, you can do some bookevents.
You can go to literary festivalsif you are invited or get
yourself invited.
But because I was able to tracksome of that before the lockdown
on my book, you know, I couldsee 10, 15 books, maybe 20 books
sell from an event.
And then the little thing goback down again.
So what an author is able to dois pretty limited, unless they
(08:47):
have a huge platform.
Ken Whyte (08:49):
Two points on that.
One is I think that it's reallyfor us as publishers to educate
writers and also our staff andour editors, people who work on
the books, to be aware of salesstats and to care about sales
stats.
Because at the end of the day,that's what keeps us in
(09:10):
business.
And that's what gives themopportunities, gives them jobs.
There can be a kind of a churchand state attitude towards
sales.
You know,"I'm just here tocreate art.
I don't care whether or not theunwashed public wants it or
not." I think we really have toencourage people to like the
sales side of it, to embrace thesales side of it and so on.
(09:35):
As for what they can do about it-- it's true-- there are some
authors without platforms who,can't do much at all.
But every publisher will tellyou, now that they're giving a
leg up to any author who doeshave a platform, and they're
(09:56):
also expecting authors to usetheir platforms to sell books.
So, it's important informationto have whether or not your book
is selling, whether you're in adoldrums, so that you can make
better decisions about how touse your platform.
What events to do, what not todo, how to allocate your time in
(10:19):
order to sell more books.
More information's valuable, tothat end, towards everybody
making the most of anopportunity with a book.
Sam Hiyate (10:32):
Jack, any thoughts?
Jack David (10:34):
If an author is checking and gets really
detailed information and findsout that they've sold 15 copies
at McNally in Saskatoon, butthey sold nothing in Regina.
Then the author can make a moveto try to try to change that and
call up their local store, ifthey're in Regina and say,
"What's going on here?" So yeah,it can be helpful that way--
(10:55):
they're acting as sales agentseffectively.
Sam Hiyate (10:59):
So one of the things that's come to my attention just
from watching the industry-- andthe last maybe five years has
been the most intense-- but I'venoticed that publishers are
recruiting more and more datapeople, data analytics, SEO
optimization.
So is the new world ofpublishing having access to this
data and figuring out how to usedata to sell more books.
(11:20):
And if so, how can authors rideon that?
I'll start with you Jack.
Jack David (11:27):
It's not so much in our case, bringing the authors
into that equation.
But today we were having ameeting about how many, copies
of a book to print.
And we had so much moreinformation than we had seven
years ago, 10 years ago.
We had where they were sellingand we had how much it was going
to cost.
And we have what the authorexpected, and whether we could
(11:49):
do the fancy cover or not.
If we went POD-- all that kindof information, we just did not
have before.
So we're still making a lot ofguesses about how many copies to
print.
I think we're just perhaps a bitmore accurate now than we were.
It's a better model, Sam.
But, one of the books we weretold by our sales reps that they
(12:13):
thought that Indigo was going tocome in for 600.
That was their order.
That was the projection.
But when he actually got theorder a couple of days ago, it
was 99 copies.
Diane Terrana (12:24):
Oh my god.
Jack David (12:26):
So it still comes down to people talking to people
and trying to figure out what'sgoing on.
Sam Hiyate (12:33):
Okay, I'm going to end it on this one question.
Is there enough transparency?
Because I think Carly's originalthought was, transparency in
publishing.
And I feel like you guys aremaybe special in that.
Ken, when you said you wouldtalk to somebody, maybe every
couple of weeks about how theirbook's doing.
That seems like Max Perkinslevel of publishing.
Diane Terrana (12:54):
I was kind of shocked.
Ken Whyte (12:56):
Well, we put together what we call a"welcome package"
for Sutherland House authors andit lays out for them all of this
stuff.
What the expectations are onthem in terms of using their
platform, how best to use them,when to start using them, all
(13:16):
that sort of thing and tellsthem what we're going to do.
And how often we're going tocommunicate with them and who to
communicate with about what, andwe do it in time periods, you
know, the few months before thebook's launched and then tell
them what to expect a few monthsafter the book's launched.
And we've done that mostly inresponse to author requests for
(13:39):
transparency and, it's maybe alittle easier for us because
we're new and we're small.
But I think that over time, aspublishers get used to operating
in a new environment, where theauthors are a lot more involved
in selling the books, it's goingto become necessary, to have
(14:02):
that level of transparency andback and forth between authors.
And, I just published a bookwith Penguin Random House, with
Knopf in New York.
I haven't heard a damn thingfrom them.
I've had one call since the booklaunched, six weeks ago.
Sam Hiyate (14:18):
But, dude, you have the portal!
Ken Whyte (14:21):
That's not really that helpful when you have
questions about, what you couldbe doing and how you could be
doing it, and how you could helptheir efforts.
The portal is not a lot of good.
Sam Hiyate (14:37):
Jack, any final thoughts or Diane?
Jack David (14:39):
Yeah, if we're talking about transparency, I
think we should talk aboutpublisher relationships with
agents and what goes on there.
Sam Hiyate (14:48):
I'm here, I'm here-- talk to me.
I'm here Jack, I'm listening.
Jack David (14:52):
We've had experiences where, for example,
and this doesn't involve youdirectly Sam, where the agent
will say, I'd like my offers bythe middle of August.
And then we make an offer by themiddle of August.
And then they say, well, it'ssummer and not everybody's
around.
So let's extend it to September10th.
(15:12):
And we thought that was thefinal offer, but they just keep
it open.
Sam Hiyate (15:18):
Wait, by the way we've never done that to you.
We wouldn't do that to anybody.
We stick by our dates.
Jack David (15:22):
So the point is that the agent should be transparent
with the publisher, as much asthe publisher is transparent
with the author.
Sam Hiyate (15:30):
That's a good point.
Noted.
Okay, everybody.
Thanks so much, Diane, Ken,Jack, it's a pleasure to have
you on.
I hope you guys come back andgreat talk.
Diane Terrana (15:41):
Yes.
A pleasure gentlemen.
Ken Whyte (15:43):
Thank you, Sam.
Jack David (15:44):
Thank you.
Sam Hiyate (15:47):
Few things in the publishing industry seem as
subjective and slippery as thedifference between memoir and
fiction.
Our own Diane Terrana has somethoughts.
Diane Terrana (16:03):
Hello authors, today, I'm talking about memoir
versus fiction, and the linebetween the two.
I first learned the differencewhen I was in grade four, a
school librarian introduced myclass to a book set in the early
20th century, a story based onthe author's recollections of
her childhood.
It would have been called amemoir except for one scene in
which a goat ate 100 buttonsfrom her dress.
(16:23):
That never happened, hence thebook was a novel.
Many authors, whose stories areclose to their lives, struggle
with the two genres.
Some haven't yet decided whichthey even intend to write and
some want to write memoir, butfind their story doesn't quite
work.
Therefore they want to insertsome fictional elements-- a
clearer arc, stronger plotpoints, perhaps more dynamic
(16:45):
scenes.
These writers frequently saytheir stories are true, but they
have rounded some corners,embellished the truth, taken
liberties or written with an eyeto truth, not facts.
Really?
As an editor, I'm going to focuson those corners.
How sharp were they and howgrounded are they now?
Let's go back to the dress.
(17:06):
The hundred buttons and thegoat.
Well, you say there was a skirt,it had some buttons and there
was a goat sniffing around thehem.
Okay.
There isn't a lot of distancebetween the facts and the
fiction.
And by the way, that goat'snever going to refute your
veracity.
But what if you tell me therewas no dress buttons or goat.
Instead, there was a sweater, azipper and a hamster.
(17:28):
So my question is why substituteat all?
Let's just stick with the facts.
We can tighten the story, shapeit, and I'm sure truth will out.
What if, however, there was noclothing, no fasteners and no
animal.
Well authors, that is fiction.
I'm Diane Terrana, ExecutiveEditor at The Rights Factory.
(17:51):
Thank you for listening.
Sam Hiyate (18:02):
The publishing industry loves nothing more than
doing books about celebrities,but what we at the agency wanted
to know, if you look at all thebooks published about a single
celebrity and by celebrity, Imean, Britney Spears over the
years, what can we learn?
Not just about femalecelebrities-- pop stars in this
(18:24):
case-- but about our culture atlarge.
That's the question we've put toKathryn Willms, Associate Agent
at The Rights Factory, andhere's what she came up with.
So what's your connection toBritney?
How did this start?
Kathryn Willms (18:38):
I feel like I'm a woman of a certain age and I'm
actually the same age as BritneySpears.
And when you're a woman growingup in, my case BC, but if you're
a woman of a certain age, youjust have a natural connection
to Britney Spears, whether youwanted it or not.
And then, I just kind offollowed her over the years.
I wouldn't call myself a superfan, but I would say I'm
(18:59):
invested, you know how sometimesyou just get invested in someone
because they've just been partof your life for, a long time.
So I'm not part of the FreeBritney movement.
But I've been really fascinated,about what's been happening
lately.
And I kind of feel as somebodywho identified as a feminist,
even in high school, you know,Britney Spears has always been a
complicated figure.
And I feel like I've alwaysdefended her in certain ways
(19:24):
when people said her musicwasn't any good.
My husband always says she can'tdance, which drives me crazy.
And my argument is that shechooses not to sometimes-- fair
enough.
But now that now we know thatmight have been a silent
protest.
And then I had a couple otherthoughts about why the stories
caught fire right now.
And one is that I wonder if likeall of us being under lockdown
(19:45):
for a year and a half, ifthere's like a kind of--
Sam Hiyate (19:49):
Kind of, it resonates with us.
It looks like we're under ourown conservatorship.
Kathryn Willms (19:54):
Right?
I kind of feel like in our caseit was, governments, not our
father, but, it does seem likethere's a real surge in empathy,
which I thought was reallyinteresting coming at this
moment.
Sam Hiyate (20:03):
Good, good point.
No, good point.
Kathryn Willms (20:05):
So there's 13 books on Publishers Marketplace
that use Britney Spears names.
Yeah.
So looking at this list, it'skind of fascinating and gives
you a little glimpse ofliterally the last 20 years.
So I had three kind of maintakeaways.
So the first one is (20:18):
Britney is not taken seriously as an
artist.
In 2004, this is actually aphenomenon that's developed in
2004.
She's mentioned in thedescription of a book by James
Dickerson called Go Girl, Go: The Women's Revolution in Music, (20:30):
undefined
and her name is includedalongside Billy Holiday's.
So that was probably a highwatermark for Britney.
This is three years before sheshaves her head and sort of
becomes this person that has--
Sam Hiyate (20:47):
-- is a little more unpredictable.
Kathryn Willms (20:49):
Yeah.
more unpredictable.
And then after that, herpersonal life really takes
precedence in her narrative.
So in 2005, she was named in abook called Trainwreck, about
the women that our society shuns.
And then, you know, it'sinteresting, I think there's
been a little bit of an attemptto sort of, think about her
music again.
Alice Bolin wrote a book aboutthe female body, but she also
(21:12):
wrote a book about"Hit me baby,"Britney's first seminal hit.
She has this article.
She talks about,"Can pop musicbe smart," and looks at it as an
ode to loneliness.
So I wonder whether we'll comeback around again and revision
the music.
But she's always been used as avessel, to make political and
(21:34):
cultural points.
And Billy Corgan, when theSmashing Pumpkins broke up, said
that they had to break upbecause it's hard to keep trying
to fight the good fight againstthe Britneys.
So definitely Britney has notgotten a lot of respect.
Yeah, the good fight.
My second takeaway is she'snever been in control of her own
narrative.
And, as you said, Sam, you know,a lot of people around her have
(21:55):
gotten book deals.
Her mother wrote two books,
Sam Hiyate (22:00):
Her sister,
Kathryn Willms (22:01):
Sister, yeah.
Her mother has one of her bookscalled A Mother's Gift, which is
the worst title.
Makes me very unhappy-- herpersonal trainer.
We have two biographies,including something called an
authorized autobiography.
Sam is that a thing?
Can you even have an"authorized"?
Sam Hiyate (22:16):
I don't think that is the thing, cause I guess
usually if it's, unauthorized,it means you can go dig up
whatever dirt and you don't haveto run it by whoever-- the
person that the book's about.
Kathryn Willms (22:27):
And she's also part of two volumes of a book
called Hollywood Exposed, aboutscandalous secret lives of
superstars, like Angela Jolie,Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears,
Eddie Murphy, and Madonna.
And that list cracked me outbecause it was a bunch of women
and a Black man.
Of course it is.
But I think the point here isthat Britney's voice is not
represented at all, unless youcount her book with her mom,
(22:50):
which I would not.
And you know, I think a lot ofthe women, the starlets of that
day-- Jessica Simpson andChristina Aguilera, Mandy Moore
-- have been allowed to growpast that and respond to some of
the narratives that were writtenabout them.
And B ritney just has neverreally been given t hat choice
and people have just used her inall sorts of ways.
I think watching the framingBritney doc, there's a scene
(23:13):
where she comes out to launchher latest, the Vegas residency,
and she just keeps walking pastthe stage and she doesn't talk
to anyone.
And look, that just struck mebecause I know that Britney gets
a lot-- there's a lot ofdiscourse about her lip-synching
and she definitely haslip-synched, but to me, that's
somewhat symbolic.
She literally has no voice.
She's just this body on thestage that people use and they
(23:33):
comment on.
So I think that's one of the bigtakeaways.
And the third one is, I don'teven know if this needs
elaboration, but we live in asexist society.
Some of the terrible thingsjournalists asked Britney Spears
in the mid two thousands-- abouther virginity, her body, her
mental health, her kids.
Sarah Silverman, and called herkids"mistakes." It's just the
(23:56):
worst stuff to look at.
And, as you said, Sam, one ofthe books on this list is by
Christopher Sihlar and it wassold by the title of The Grilled
Cheese Madonna.
It's about auctions, and one ofthe auctions was for Britney's
pregnancy test.
Sam Hiyate (24:10):
And what was it worth in the end?
Kathryn Willms (24:12):
Honestly, I didn't look it up.
Sam Hiyate (24:13):
Do you remember?
Kathryn Willms (24:14):
Oh my God,
Sam Hiyate (24:16):
It was five, apparently$5,000 US.
Kathryn Willms (24:19):
So it's interesting I think that there's
kind of been a reckoning ofsorts.
I think with Amy Winehouse andthat documentary came out.
And,I think there's been an ideathat all of a sudden, we start
to realize that these narrativesreally can hurt people in really
fundamental ways.
So in some ways, I think this isa really interesting time and I
think the real question thatwe're left with is, she's kind
(24:42):
of found her voice now.
So, does that mean Sam, you'llbe interested in this.
Is there going to be a book?
Is the real question.
Sam Hiyate (24:50):
Like, a real one.
Kathryn Willms (24:53):
Authorized, yes.
Sam Hiyate (24:54):
Where she has found her voice, where she's taken
control of her narrative.
Cause I feel like that's theonly happy ending to this story
-- where she gets out of thisconservatorship, it sounds like
she's under the thumb of herfamily and this whole kind of
empire that manages her moneybecause everybody stands to lose
so much if they're kicked out.
There was one person that theysaid in that New Yorker article
(25:17):
where he was making more thanhalf a million dollars a year,
just managing some small thing.
That was his salary.
Kathryn Willms (25:22):
Yeah.
It's ridiculous.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I'm kind of two minds aboutit.
On one hand, Jessica Simpsonwrote a book about-- she also
sort of got painted in similarways.
It has a similar narrative, andwe're in the book industry.
So we're like always more booksis good, but I also think, you
know, Jia Tolentino makes aninteresting point in an
interview I heard with her,which is that, what you do when
(25:44):
you take away someone's capacityis it's self-perpetuating and
they can lose capacity.
And I think, you know, my hopefor Brittany is not so much that
she takes back her publicnarrative as that she's allowed
to drop out of the publicnarrative if she really wants
to.
Sam Hiyate (25:59):
If she wants.
Yeah.
It's her choice.
All right.
Well thanks so much, Kathryn--that's a lot of Britney really
quickly.
I'm going to have to absorb itall.
And thanks for coming on.
Kathryn Willms (26:10):
My pleasure.
I'm always happy to talk aboutBritney.
I'm excited to see what comesnext and I hope that there's a
little happier ending forBritney here.
Sam Hiyate (26:20):
Well folks, I'm sorry to say that's it for this
week.
Thanks again to all our guestsand our brilliant producer,
Andrew Kaufman.
Tune in next week, when we pairwine writers and books with
author and wine expert, NatalieMacLean, and we discuss the rise
of graphic novels and comicswith Publishers Weekly's own,
(26:41):
Calvin Reid, and writer andartist Ho Che Anderson.
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