This week we discuss the rise of graphic novels in North America, Risque YA and we pair books and wines. Our panel discussion features writer, filmmaker and graphic novel creator, Ho Che Anderson and Senior News Editor of Publishers Weekly, Editor of PW Comics World, Cohost of the More to Come Podcast and editor of The Fanatic, Calvin Reid. Diane Terrana weighs in on how far is too far with YA, and Sam Hiyate and Natalie MacLean, the author of two bestselling books and the host of the podcast Unreserved Wine Talk pair CanLit classics with wines.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to Agent Provocateur episode
four.
This week, we have an update onthe success of graphic novels.
Calvin Reid (00:17):
I'm telling you, we're living in a special time
for comics right now across theboard.
Artists have more options--
Sam Hiyate (00:23):
We have our own Diane Terrana on risque content
for YA works.
Diane Terrana (00:27):
YA is for kids 12 and older.
Everyone knows that 12 and 18year olds are practically a
different species.
Yet these YA books are lumpedtogether.
Sam Hiyate (00:37):
And we have literary wine pairings with Natalie
MacLean, a friend, and abrilliant wine expert.
Natalie MacLean (00:44):
Most importantly, this wine has great
structure, important for bookstoo, as I understand.
Sam Hiyate (01:04):
Graphic novels-- they've reached 1.3 billion in
sales.
Is this the result of Disneybuying Marvel?
Is it the pandemic and the factthat we've gotten bored of
Netflix, and we want comics?
To see if this trend willcontinue.
We've put together a panel-- I'mgoing to introduce you to the
(01:30):
panelists.
Today.
First we have Calvin Reid-- thisguy is probably the busiest guy
in New York.
His here's titles (01:36):
senior news editor, Publishers, Weekly;
editor, PW Comics World; Cohostof the More to Come podcast,
which, if you've never listenedto it, it's got 10 years of
awesome comic history.
Hi, Calvin.
Welcome.
Calvin Reid (01:51):
Hey man.
How you doing?
Long time no see.
Sam Hiyate (01:54):
Also with me is Ho Che Anderson, filmmaker, graphic
novelist, comics writer,illustrator, and, most recently,
the new creator of Luke Cage,Power Man, for Marvel.
So yeah.
Calvin Reid (02:09):
Can't wait, man.
I can't wait.
Ho Che Anderson (02:11):
Thank you brother.
Sam Hiyate (02:13):
All right.
Awesome.
So I want to start-- Calvin, youfor PW, you had this report at
the end of June saying that wehad the best year of all time
for comics in North America,where, between all of the
different formats and comics, wereached almost$1.3 billion.
So what do you-- how do youinterpret that?
What's going on?
Calvin Reid (02:35):
People like reading comics and you know, what they
really like reading them whenthey're trapped in their homes
for a year and a half and theycan't get out.
What you're seeing with thegraphic novel market is what is
going on across, frankly, theentire book publishing world,
even periodical comics, whichhave been slipping over the last
(02:58):
year.
They're not really the preferredformat, for new generations.
I'm not knocking periodicalcomics.
They made me the goofy comicsfan that I am today, but really,
what consumers want and how theywant to consume comics is
changing.
And like I said, the explosionin reading, I mean, we just
(03:23):
published a story, I thinkyesterday.
I forget what the underlyingmetrics are, but reading
increased by 20% over the lastyear.
And this is reflected across thebook publishing world and the
graphic novels world.
And I'll wrap this up reallyquickly-- but let's remember,
before the pandemic hit, inearly 2020, the comics world,
(03:49):
both the periodical and the booktrade, we were expecting this
category to continue to grow ata phenomenal rate, which it has
been doing for the last four orfive years in a row.
So, more of the same, but peopletrapped and are desperate.
Sam Hiyate (04:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, totally.
Ho, as a creator, do you feellike this is a boom time for
comic creators?
Ho Che Anderson (04:12):
You know, to be honest with you, I have very
little kind of perspective ofwhat's going on in the medium,
simply because for the last likefour years, three, four years,
I've just had my face buried inmy work.
So I haven't had much time tocome up for air to really
observe what's going on.
So when I hear Calvin say thatsales have ballooned in the wake
(04:35):
of the pandemic, I'm actuallylegitimately shocked to hear
that.
I had a conversation-- I had anexchange with Howard Chaykin
about a year ago where I askedhim when his-- you know, he did
a series in the eighties thatI'm still passionately in love
with called Time Squared and thethird volume, thank you, Calvin.
And the third volume, which wassupposed to have come out by
(04:55):
now.
And he told me that the pandemichad sort of pushed that to the
side, somewhat.
And I thought that given thefact that, the governments were
handing out stimulus packagesand handing out relief for
people in trouble.
I thought that would haveresulted in less sales.
So to hear that the opposite istrue is-- I mean, it makes a
(05:18):
certain amount of sense, butit's also surprising.
So, yeah.
Calvin Reid (05:20):
Well, it doesn't surprise me that you've been
working and not looking at theDiamond's and BookScan sales
charts.
I absolutely get that, butreally I'm telling you, we're
living in a special time forcomics right now.
Across the board, artists havemore options, online sales, even
(05:41):
though they put retail, that'sphysical retail is in jeopardy--
exploded, but still retailers,because they don't quit, they
found a way to make this workand their community surrounded
them to support them-- bothcomic shops and local
bookstores.
But I don't want to go on andon, but believe me, we're living
in a special time right now.
Ho Che Anderson (05:59):
I've seen it reflected.
I mean, my local is a placecalled The Beguiling here in
Toronto.
And yes--
Sam Hiyate (06:11):
You guys have good taste.
Ho Che Anderson (06:11):
So, outside, they have a booth out front that
says,"The doctor is in." Youcan't go in the store, but you
can still get your comicscurbside.
And I always see people lined upthere.
So, yeah, this was good to hearthat we're still keeping the
bricks and mortar alive in thispandemic age.
Sam Hiyate (06:28):
Calvin you touched on the online thing.
And I was a little shocked, lastyear when DC comics announced
their digital first comics.
And I really wasn't sure whatthey're up to.
So does that mean that they'redoing everything digital and
then they'll do the graphicnovel compilations in print
later?
Or does it mean everything isdigital?
Calvin Reid (06:45):
No, I mean, DC has been doing a lot of digital
comics for a lot of years.
I mean, this isn't new.
I mean digital offers bigpublishers, particularly comics
published in-- anybody doingserial publishing-- an
opportunity to put a lot ofmaterial out and decide what
works, what fans want, and whatthey will reissue, or do, or
(07:05):
collect in print.
And from what I understand abouttheir digital publishing, I
mean, they do it alongside theirprint publishing.
Now, DC is in a big disarrayright now because of what Warner
Media is doing.
Everybody's kind of scratchingtheir head.
Sam Hiyate (07:22):
There were some layoffs--
Calvin Reid (07:22):
There's been a huge number of layoffs, changes at
the top.
They basically completely let gotheir whole direct market sales
stuff.
I'll point everyone to the MoreTo Come podcast, where we talked
about this stuff incessantly,over the last six months to a
year.
But, digital publishing remainsan important part of what the
(07:47):
situation is right now.
It doesn't mean periodicals orcomics are going away, but it
really means that people havemore ways to get the stuff that
they want.
And there's a whole group offans that want their comics that
way.
Now they can look at this andsay,"This is really blowing up.
(08:07):
Let's collect it in print aswell."
Sam Hiyate (08:11):
Got it.
So, Ho, through one of hiscontacts, sent me the news about
the relaunching of the Milestonecomics"Dakotaverse," which seems
to be getting a lot ofexcitement online.
You guys have any-- Ho, anythoughts on this?
Ho Che Anderson (08:27):
The fact that it's returned is incredible.
I don't know.
It's such a different landscapetoday than it was back in the
early nineties.
In some ways, I'm not going to--what I was going to say is, in
some ways we've kind of movedbeyond the need specifically for
(08:49):
a Milestone-- but then I thinkback to where we've been in
north America for the last fouryears, especially since January
6th, and then I start toreevaluate that statement.
So I'm actually very glad thatMilestone has made its return.
I think that probably come aboutat exactly the right time.
(09:09):
So yeah.
Well, we'll do.
Sam Hiyate (09:15):
Okay.
So as well as straightsuperheroes and literary graphic
novels like King, Ho, your greatbook, This One Summer, and the
classic Maus and Persepolis fromthe Pantheon people, a new wave
of realistic superheroes arebecoming huge hits on TV.
I'm thinking here, especially ofAmazon with The Boys and
Invincible, both which seem tobe doing really well, because
(09:37):
it's that thing about-- and Iremember this as a kid reading
that book, The Science ofSuperheroes, where they talked
about what would actually happenif Superman and Lois Lane
actually made out-- like, itcould be dangerous for her--
Ho Che Anderson (09:50):
It would be dangerous!
Sam Hiyate (09:54):
So any thoughts on this?
Like the different-- emergence--of these genres and the
realistic superhero?
I think now is the time.
Ho Che Anderson (09:58):
I'm going to take this one.
I feel like I'm going to grab onthis one first.
I'm of two minds, cause I'm justabout to dive into the superhero
world myself.
Actually, I've been there for alittle while-- working on
Captain Canuck and now with LukeCage-- and my natural worldview
(10:19):
is to keep things grounded.
But at the same time, we cannotforget that these are people in
bright costumes, tellingmorality tales, and that is a
perfect vehicle for children.
So I never would want to losewhat appeals to-- I mean, a kid
doesn't want to read about thegray areas of life.
They don't want to read aboutcorruption that is not punished.
(10:44):
They want to read about stuff,that corruption, where it is
punished and where the linesbetween good and bad are very
clearly drawn.
At least that's what I thinkmost children respond to.
That starts to get a little morecomplicated as they get older.
So part of me laments the factthat there's not enough, it
didn't seem like enough of thematerial is geared towards just
(11:07):
the pure joy storytelling thatis going to attract children.
I feel like when you've got aguy in a costume like that, when
you try to add too much gray tohim or her, it can sometimes
kind of muddy the waters alittle bit.
And yet, there's still anaudience out there that is going
to respond to that.
And a person like me is going towant to explore those gray
(11:30):
areas.
So I guess I'm just saying thatI'm a little nervous sometimes
when I see too much adultstorytelling in mainstream
superhero comics-- just becauseI don't want it to be the
barrier to attract the nextgeneration.
Does that make any sense?
I want them-- the stories, to dothis, that'll make--
Sam Hiyate (11:52):
That makes a lot of sense.
There's a moral or ethicaldilemma that these producers are
playing with.
Ho Che Anderson (11:56):
In my opinion.
I mean there's room for both,obviously.
It's just that I worry sometimesthat we might be veering a
little too much towards the grimand the gritty, in terms of our
superhero comics.
But that's just me.
Calvin, I'm dying to hear whatyou have to say.
Calvin Reid (12:19):
Well, superhero comics translated into movies.
Really, we just entered into agood period.
That combination of specialeffects, Hollywood gatekeepers,
or specifically directors,actually deciding that if we
cast them with really greatactors, actually work on the
scripts, you know what-- anybodywill love these stories.
(12:42):
They are iconic characters.
Even people who don't read thedoggone comic books, they were
immersed in the mythologies ofSuperman, Captain America-- what
they represent in terms of humanaspiration.
You know, that's where comicsget you.
So to be able to transform theminto movies, which let's face i
(13:06):
t, is the most popular-- I mean,th em a nd what video games?
I mean, it's just a perfectstorm of all of the stuff coming
together around greatstorytelling.
Sam Hiyate (13:19):
I guess my last question is what's the future of
all these genres.
Cause I feel if the market isgrowing so quickly, I feel like
it's-- even though Ho's emergingfrom his creative chaos and
realizing this-- Ho you're goingto get people on bidding wars
for your work soon, I'm sure,especially after they see Luke
Cage,
Ho Che Anderson (13:40):
Your words, to God's ear, you know how that
phrase goes.
Sam Hiyate (13:44):
So, we've got this market and what I'm noticing is
a lot more people are doing it--because for a long time, it
seemed like Kickstarter waswhere a lot of stuff was going.
But now I'm noticing like herein Canada, we have Lev Gleason,
which is now becoming a NorthAmerican company.
My friend Brendan Deneen, whoco-started Scout Comics.
So there's all these newentrants to the marketplace.
(14:06):
So I feel like there's going tobe a great opportunity for new
talent that was never therebefore, because now we're at$1.3
billion, and if the online salesare almost$200 million or
whatever they are, it's like,serious markets.
Yeah.
You guys have any thoughts onthe future?
Ho Che Anderson (14:24):
I love the democratization of the medium
and I love the fact that there'sso many outlets out there where
you can get creative, work thatis done driven by pure passion
and by ideas, out into themarketplace.
(14:46):
And, that there's an audiencefor it.
I just wonder though how much,how many people are going to be
able to make a living out ofdoing it, just by the sheer
number of people who are outthere?
But listen, this is not aninformed opinion.
It's just a one jerk.
Sam Hiyate (15:05):
You're worried about the artists.
You're like, how are they goingto eat?
I love that.
Ho Che Anderson (15:09):
I wonder about that.
Sam Hiyate (15:10):
I worry about that too.
Ho Che Anderson (15:10):
It's a tough business out there for
everybody.
And the more competition thereis out there, the harder it is
for any individual to let's say,manage to like break through the
pack, to make a living.
So in terms of artisticexpression and in terms of the
range of subject matter, I thinkit's never been better.
(15:31):
And I think it's only going toget better.
In terms of sustainability, froma business perspective.
And I'm quite, I'm notquestioning that, but, you know,
Kickstarter's provided greatincomes for a lot of emerging
cartoonists.
So there's, there's clearly away to do it.
Calvin Reid (15:47):
Uh, yeah, I'm going to echo that.
I mean, I didn't go into all ofthe-- describe the market today
as a perfect storm.
But, really it is.
And the biggest part of what Ido believe will make this
sustainable is that the NorthAmerican comics market is no
longer a one genre marketplace.
I love superhero comics, but ifthe world is a bigger place,
(16:12):
than American superhero comics,and you don't see a market like
the U S anywhere else in theworld-- where only one genre is
considered to represent theentire medium-- that's done.
Now, superhero comics are stillthe dominant genre, but we, if
you buy comics, the book tradehas genuinely made comics for
(16:35):
everyone because you got topublish stuff.
That's not just for this narrowthing of eight teenage white
dudes,.
I mean, we have a market thatwomen have, the indie side of
the market, which is really anatural market for the book
trade, is exploding.
That crowdfunding has impactedso many people.
(16:59):
New imprints are launching itseems every day.
Not only do I think it'ssustainable, I think we're in
for a long run of growth andit's never been easier.
It's never been easy to be acomics artist and it probably
never will be.
But any artist-- being an artistis a vote of confidence in your
(17:22):
own talent.
If there's always going to be arisk, but we're seeing a
marketplace now that there aremore options for comics to make
a useful amount of money than Ihave ever seen before.
When I was a kid-- and that wasa long time ago-- either you
worked in superheroes, maybe youcould do gag panels.
And if you were really lucky,you become a syndicated
(17:44):
newspaper cartoonist.
I mean, that was it.
Maybe an illustrator.
Ho Che Anderson (17:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Calvin Reid (17:49):
There's a whole new, different world out here.
The book trade, you can do somany different things, including
just crowdfund the thing.
So, I can go on and on, but I'mgoing to stop there.
This is a good time to be incomics.
Sam Hiyate (18:01):
Yeah.
Thanks everybody.
Calvin Reid, and just like onefinal plug-- he is a genius.
You gotta hear the More to Comepodcast.
Just Google it.
It's part of Publisher's Weekly.
Calvin Reid (18:16):
Ho is a genius! King is one of the great works
of American-- North American--literature.
Somebody needs to take that bookand make it into a movie.
I hope it's still in print.
Isn't it?
Ho Che Anderson (18:27):
Yes sir.
A new edition.
Sam Hiyate (18:31):
Ho got a note from Fantagraphics.
And also, it just sold inBrazil.
Calvin Reid (18:33):
That book is great!
Sam Hiyate (18:37):
Our own Executive Editor, Diane Terrana, asks how
far is too far with young adult?
Diane Terrana (19:02):
Hello, authors.
I was recently in a discussionabout YA novels that deal with
tough subjects.
We were a panel of authors whosebooks were rife with trigger
warnings.
At the end, the moderator askeda question about boundaries.
"Is there anywhere you wouldn'tgo in a YA novel?" I was
surprised that most of theauthors said they would be
solely guided by the story'sneeds and would go wherever it
(19:26):
took them.
Let's think this through.
YA is for kids 12 and older.
Everyone knows that 12 and 18year olds are practically a
different species, yet these YAbooks are lumped together by
publishers, bookstores, andlibraries.
Adults usually buy for youngteens and there is no special
shelf for young teens, just teenliterature,.Older teens buy for
(19:50):
themselves, often preferringadult books.
To further confuse the issue, aconfounding number of adults
devour YA-- just check outGoodreads if you don't believe
me.
So what the heck is the targetaudience?
Well, it is still 12 to 18, inspite of those adult readers,
who by the way, are probablyresponsible for pushing some
limits.
When a book is labeled YAthere's an unspoken covenant
(20:12):
that the material is ageappropriate, and not just for
the older end of the spectrum.
I hope we can all agree thatsome things are not appropriate
for kids, even if we disagreeabout particulars.
And that certain levels ofviolence or sex are deeply
problematic in YA novels ormemoirs.
So let's circle back to thoseauthors who say,"It's all about
(20:32):
the story." Who subjugateeverything to their book as
though it is sacrosanct.
No one loves stories more than Ido.
I even worship certain authors.
And though some stories are inthe realm of sacred literature,
books are not sacred.
Kids are.
And if you aren't willing to putthe interest of kids in front of
the interest of your story,should you even be writing
(20:54):
children's literature?
Maybe you should just stick toadult books.
This is Diane Terrana, editorwith The Rights Factory.
Thanks for listening.
Sam Hiyate (21:11):
for those of you who can resist everything except
temptation, there's nothingbetter than mixing, thinking and
drinking.
Our next piece pairs bottles andbooks.
Today we're chatting withNatalie MacLean, who is the
author of two best selling booksand the host of Unreserved Wine
(21:35):
Talk, which the New York Timesnamed,"One of the seven best
drinks podcasts." Hi, Natalie,welcome to Agent Provocateur.
Or as they say in English, AgentProvocateur.
Natalie MacLean (21:47):
I love it, Sam.
It's great to be here.
Sam Hiyate (21:50):
Awesome.
I'm so excited to have you.
Today, I thought we'd be pairingiconic Canadian books with
various wines.
Let's start with JaelRichardson's debut, Gutter
Child.
This is a fierce coming of agestory set in a dystopian world,
which is divided between theprivileged mainland people and
the disadvantaged gutterinhabitants.
(22:10):
The heroine is one of only 100babies taken from the gutter to
be raised in the mainland as asocial experiment.
But when her mainland motherdies, she finds herself fighting
to survive.
Natalie MacLean (22:24):
Good choice.
I love this book, Sam.
I think of this book ashaunting, like it stays with you
long after you've finished it.
And that is actually how I thinkabout great wines too.
You just keep remembering them.
They keep coming back to you.
And so, I think I would pairJael Richardson's book with a
(22:47):
local favorite from Niagara, 30Bench Small Lot Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc,actually.
And it's made by rockstarwinemaker, Emma Garner.
And it's bold and it's brooding,but, most importantly, this wine
has great structure-- importantfor books too, as I understand,
(23:08):
It's got a long finish thatlasts forever.
So I think it'd be a greatpairing with Gutter Child.
Sam Hiyate (23:15):
Oh my god, what a great line.
So great structure, and a finishto last forever.
I feel like you're reviewing thebook there.
It's awesome
Natalie MacLean (23:23):
Books and bottles, right?
Sam Hiyate (23:24):
So Natalie, are there dystopian wines?
Like what would you do withMargaret Atwood's The Handmaid's
tale?
Natalie MacLean (23:30):
Right.
It's actually funny you bringthat one up because I actually
selected it as a book in highschool for a book report, which
really worried my Englishteacher, because it's got such
dark themes.
So I absolutely loved it, but Iguess in the spirit of a
dystopia, I'm going to do ananti-pairing, Sam.
(23:51):
I don't want to pair thisanti-pairing-- do not pair this
book with the Handmaid's TaleWines.
Sam Hiyate (24:02):
Wait, wait, wait.There's something called
the Handmaid's Tale Wines?
Is this like from the Handmaid'sTale world that somehow got
transposed across the multiverseto here?
Natalie MacLean (24:11):
It did.
So MGM, I think it was-- I wroteabout these wines a while back.
But they did a partnership forthe TV series and here's why I
don't recommend them.
You'd think it'd be a naturalpairing.
They named each wine after thecharacters in the book, like
(24:32):
Offred.
So Offred's Pinot Noir wasdescribed as beguiling and
seductive and she needs to--anyway.
But I thought, why are younaming these wines after the
possessive n on-n ame nonmoniker of the women's
(24:53):
commander?
Why not use their real nameslike June and Emily, if you
really want to get allempowerment about it?
So instead, I would recommendpairing Handmaid's Tale with
Nasty Woman Wines.
I love these.
They're from Oregon andWashington, and each of the
labels of these Nasty WomenWines, which were founded on
(25:15):
election day, 2016-- not g oingt o go there-- but anyway...
Sam Hiyate (25:21):
We can call it anti-Trump wines.
Natalie MacLean (25:23):
No, no, no.
They are anti 45.
But each label features areal-life woman, in sort of like
a gritty black and white photo.
They're staring confidently atthe camera.
There's no photoshopping, nomommy's juice and whatever, but
one of the labels has thepicture of Cheryl Strayed, the
(25:47):
bestselling memoirist of Wild.
Yes, exactly.
So I just love it because she'son the label for Persistent
Pinot Gris.
Of course the winemaker had toget permission, but they tell
the real stories of real womenand the struggles they went
through.
And 20% of the profits go towomen empowerment groups.
So I love the whole backstoryand back label of this wine,
(26:09):
frankly.
So I think that'd be a perfectpairing, whether you're reading
Cheryl Strayed's Wild or TheHandmaid's Tale, because
persistence is everything inflavor.
This wine has a persistent limezest.
And I think most importantly,whether it's books or bottles,
it has no bitter aftertaste.
Sam Hiyate (26:28):
Oh, another great book description.
I'm going to use that.
I'm to call you and say,"Natalie, how would you describe
this book?" Cause then I'll justuse it to pitch it to editors.
Natalie MacLean (26:37):
Exactly.
Just substitute the word bookand bottle.
You'll be fine.
Sam Hiyate (26:40):
Awesome.
So not that this will happenthat often in our lives, but
let's say we're stuck on a boatwith a tiger.
What would be a great wine with,let's say Yann Martel's Life of
Pi,
Natalie MacLean (26:53):
Right.
Well, let's see, that I wouldhave to go with a dessert wine.
Right?
I know it's"pi" versus"pie," butanyway, I would go with Tinhorn
Creek's Kerner Icewine.
So it's got these lusciousflavors of ripe apricot and
peach and honeydew notes that Ithink would be perfect with Life
(27:18):
of Pi, pie, and maybe havingyour cake and eating it too.
Sam Hiyate (27:23):
And maybe the tiger has a sweet tooth.
So you just have to give thewine to the tiger to knock the
tiger out.
Then you can escape.
Natalie MacLean (27:31):
Distract the tiger.
Put the pie at the other end ofthe boat.
And you drink the wine at theother end.
Sam Hiyate (27:36):
Perfect.
What about-- let's move thingsalong here.
What about Emma Donohue's Room?
This is a story of a youngmother and her five-year-old
son, Jack, who are both heldcaptive in a small room for many
years.
It's told from Jack'sperspective, which is
fascinating, especially afterthey're freed from the room.
Jack doesn't want things tochange because that's all he's
(27:56):
ever really known, buteventually when they both
revisit the room, he's able tolet it go-- which is I guess a
message about trauma?
Anyway, the room hasn't changed,but he has.
Natalie MacLean (28:07):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Wow.
Yeah this was a wonderful book.
Again, sorry to lasso it back,but this is my job here.
I think wines change over timetoo.
So, you know, I always love--there's the first time you try
wine and it has a certain taste.
(28:28):
But then, if you go back to thatwine, like a different bottle,
but of the same wine, yearslater, the wine has changed, but
so have you.
And you know, when I open thesame bottle years later, decades
later, I can often rememberexactly where I was, who I was
with, what I was even eating,because our sense of smell is
(28:55):
the only sense that tiesdirectly to emotion and memory
in the brain.
Sam Hiyate (28:59):
That's really interesting
Natalie MacLean (29:01):
Yeah, cause when Proust was eating that
Madeline, it didn't bring backeverything because of how it
tasted, it brought backeverything because of how it
smelled.
You know, as he ate it, you getthe smells.
So, I love doing that,revisiting old wines, old books,
just to see how I've changedover time.
(29:24):
So given Room is a very tightlyconfined setting.
But eventually it's veryexpansive in its scope.
Universal.
That's the ideal for books andbottles-- to start with the
specific and go wide.
I would probably go with aBordeaux, a blend of Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc,Merlot, from a very good vintage
(29:46):
though, like 2020-- 2020, ofcourse wasn't a great vintage
for humans, but it wasspectacular for wines.
Sam Hiyate (29:56):
So somebody won.
And apparently it was a goodyear for books.
If you look back on it.
Natalie MacLean (29:59):
Yeah.
Well, there you go.
See, there's a silver lining orwhatever.
But a Bordeaux like ChateauClarke would not be ready for
drinking right now.
You want to have patience, putit in your cellar so that it
knits together over time andthen comes out more subtle, more
complex, more enjoyable.
(30:20):
As I say, patience does have itsrewards with books sometimes
when you have to get through thetough slog, maybe at the first
or through the middle, but inthe end, if you can stay with
it, often that's the reward.,right?
Sam Hiyate (30:33):
Thanks so much, Natalie.
This has been so enlightening inso many ways.
Except now I feel like-- and I'mnot a day drinker, but I really
feel like I need a glass ofmaybe something red.
Natalie MacLean (30:44):
Then I've done my job.
Sam Hiyate (30:47):
Okay.
So where can we find you andthese pairings?
Natalie MacLean (30:50):
Sure.
So you can find them all at mywebsite, nataliemaclean.com.
And I would love to hear fromthirsty readers and listeners,
if they have a favorite book orbottle pairing, or if they've
got a book that they want me topair.
I guess the last pairing I wouldmake Sam, is with the book that
you and I are working on, mymemoir and I take solace from a
(31:13):
number of the books that we'vejust talked about were rejected
multiple times from variouspublishers.
So I'm going to be tough and I'mgoing to be hopeful and
optimistic this fall when we goout with the memoir on
submission.
And if not, you and I Sam, we'rejust going to have a glass or
four together, right?
Sam Hiyate (31:32):
I'm going to say it's going to be a bottle of
something bubbly.
That's my prediction, when we'redone this whole enterprise.
Thanks so much, Natalie.
Natalie MacLean (31:41):
Cheers, Sam.
Sam Hiyate (31:42):
Great, great chat.
Natalie MacLean (31:44):
Thank you.
Sam Hiyate (31:50):
That's our show folks.
Thanks for your time andattention and to all of our
guests for coming on.
Once again, we're grateful andvery thankful to our producer,
Andrew Kaufman.
And if you do like us and areenjoying Agent Provocateur,
please subscribe for free atagentprovocateur.substack.
com.
And come back next week, when wetalk about Harry and Meghan's
(32:17):
big book deal, and we have ourpanel on men in publishing and
boys in books.
Until then, take care.
Hello, and welcome to Agent Provocateur episode
four.
This week, we have an update onthe success of graphic novels.
Calvin Reid (00:17):
I'm telling you, we're living in a special time
for comics right now across theboard.
Artists have more options--
Sam Hiyate (00:23):
We have our own Diane Terrana on risque content
for YA works.
Diane Terrana (00:27):
YA is for kids 12 and older.
Everyone knows that 12 and 18year olds are practically a
different species.
Yet these YA books are lumpedtogether.
Sam Hiyate (00:37):
And we have literary wine pairings with Natalie
MacLean, a friend, and abrilliant wine expert.
Natalie MacLean (00:44):
Most importantly, this wine has great
structure, important for bookstoo, as I understand.
Sam Hiyate (01:04):
Graphic novels-- they've reached 1.3 billion in
sales.
Is this the result of Disneybuying Marvel?
Is it the pandemic and the factthat we've gotten bored of
Netflix, and we want comics?
To see if this trend willcontinue.
We've put together a panel-- I'mgoing to introduce you to the
(01:30):
panelists.
Today.
First we have Calvin Reid-- thisguy is probably the busiest guy
in New York.
His here's titles (01:36):
senior news editor, Publishers, Weekly;
editor, PW Comics World; Cohostof the More to Come podcast,
which, if you've never listenedto it, it's got 10 years of
awesome comic history.
Hi, Calvin.
Welcome.
Calvin Reid (01:51):
Hey man.
How you doing?
Long time no see.
Sam Hiyate (01:54):
Also with me is Ho Che Anderson, filmmaker, graphic
novelist, comics writer,illustrator, and, most recently,
the new creator of Luke Cage,Power Man, for Marvel.
So yeah.
Calvin Reid (02:09):
Can't wait, man.
I can't wait.
Ho Che Anderson (02:11):
Thank you brother.
Sam Hiyate (02:13):
All right.
Awesome.
So I want to start-- Calvin, youfor PW, you had this report at
the end of June saying that wehad the best year of all time
for comics in North America,where, between all of the
different formats and comics, wereached almost$1.3 billion.
So what do you-- how do youinterpret that?
What's going on?
Calvin Reid (02:35):
People like reading comics and you know, what they
really like reading them whenthey're trapped in their homes
for a year and a half and theycan't get out.
What you're seeing with thegraphic novel market is what is
going on across, frankly, theentire book publishing world,
even periodical comics, whichhave been slipping over the last
(02:58):
year.
They're not really the preferredformat, for new generations.
I'm not knocking periodicalcomics.
They made me the goofy comicsfan that I am today, but really,
what consumers want and how theywant to consume comics is
changing.
And like I said, the explosionin reading, I mean, we just
(03:23):
published a story, I thinkyesterday.
I forget what the underlyingmetrics are, but reading
increased by 20% over the lastyear.
And this is reflected across thebook publishing world and the
graphic novels world.
And I'll wrap this up reallyquickly-- but let's remember,
before the pandemic hit, inearly 2020, the comics world,
(03:49):
both the periodical and the booktrade, we were expecting this
category to continue to grow ata phenomenal rate, which it has
been doing for the last four orfive years in a row.
So, more of the same, but peopletrapped and are desperate.
Sam Hiyate (04:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, totally.
Ho, as a creator, do you feellike this is a boom time for
comic creators?
Ho Che Anderson (04:12):
You know, to be honest with you, I have very
little kind of perspective ofwhat's going on in the medium,
simply because for the last likefour years, three, four years,
I've just had my face buried inmy work.
So I haven't had much time tocome up for air to really
observe what's going on.
So when I hear Calvin say thatsales have ballooned in the wake
(04:35):
of the pandemic, I'm actuallylegitimately shocked to hear
that.
I had a conversation-- I had anexchange with Howard Chaykin
about a year ago where I askedhim when his-- you know, he did
a series in the eighties thatI'm still passionately in love
with called Time Squared and thethird volume, thank you, Calvin.
And the third volume, which wassupposed to have come out by
(04:55):
now.
And he told me that the pandemichad sort of pushed that to the
side, somewhat.
And I thought that given thefact that, the governments were
handing out stimulus packagesand handing out relief for
people in trouble.
I thought that would haveresulted in less sales.
So to hear that the opposite istrue is-- I mean, it makes a
(05:18):
certain amount of sense, butit's also surprising.
So, yeah.
Calvin Reid (05:20):
Well, it doesn't surprise me that you've been
working and not looking at theDiamond's and BookScan sales
charts.
I absolutely get that, butreally I'm telling you, we're
living in a special time forcomics right now.
Across the board, artists havemore options, online sales, even
(05:41):
though they put retail, that'sphysical retail is in jeopardy--
exploded, but still retailers,because they don't quit, they
found a way to make this workand their community surrounded
them to support them-- bothcomic shops and local
bookstores.
But I don't want to go on andon, but believe me, we're living
in a special time right now.
Ho Che Anderson (05:59):
I've seen it reflected.
I mean, my local is a placecalled The Beguiling here in
Toronto.
And yes--
Sam Hiyate (06:11):
You guys have good taste.
Ho Che Anderson (06:11):
So, outside, they have a booth out front that
says,"The doctor is in." Youcan't go in the store, but you
can still get your comicscurbside.
And I always see people lined upthere.
So, yeah, this was good to hearthat we're still keeping the
bricks and mortar alive in thispandemic age.
Sam Hiyate (06:28):
Calvin you touched on the online thing.
And I was a little shocked, lastyear when DC comics announced
their digital first comics.
And I really wasn't sure whatthey're up to.
So does that mean that they'redoing everything digital and
then they'll do the graphicnovel compilations in print
later?
Or does it mean everything isdigital?
Calvin Reid (06:45):
No, I mean, DC has been doing a lot of digital
comics for a lot of years.
I mean, this isn't new.
I mean digital offers bigpublishers, particularly comics
published in-- anybody doingserial publishing-- an
opportunity to put a lot ofmaterial out and decide what
works, what fans want, and whatthey will reissue, or do, or
(07:05):
collect in print.
And from what I understand abouttheir digital publishing, I
mean, they do it alongside theirprint publishing.
Now, DC is in a big disarrayright now because of what Warner
Media is doing.
Everybody's kind of scratchingtheir head.
Sam Hiyate (07:22):
There were some layoffs--
Calvin Reid (07:22):
There's been a huge number of layoffs, changes at
the top.
They basically completely let gotheir whole direct market sales
stuff.
I'll point everyone to the MoreTo Come podcast, where we talked
about this stuff incessantly,over the last six months to a
year.
But, digital publishing remainsan important part of what the
(07:47):
situation is right now.
It doesn't mean periodicals orcomics are going away, but it
really means that people havemore ways to get the stuff that
they want.
And there's a whole group offans that want their comics that
way.
Now they can look at this andsay,"This is really blowing up.
(08:07):
Let's collect it in print aswell."
Sam Hiyate (08:11):
Got it.
So, Ho, through one of hiscontacts, sent me the news about
the relaunching of the Milestonecomics"Dakotaverse," which seems
to be getting a lot ofexcitement online.
You guys have any-- Ho, anythoughts on this?
Ho Che Anderson (08:27):
The fact that it's returned is incredible.
I don't know.
It's such a different landscapetoday than it was back in the
early nineties.
In some ways, I'm not going to--what I was going to say is, in
some ways we've kind of movedbeyond the need specifically for
(08:49):
a Milestone-- but then I thinkback to where we've been in
north America for the last fouryears, especially since January
6th, and then I start toreevaluate that statement.
So I'm actually very glad thatMilestone has made its return.
I think that probably come aboutat exactly the right time.
(09:09):
So yeah.
Well, we'll do.
Sam Hiyate (09:15):
Okay.
So as well as straightsuperheroes and literary graphic
novels like King, Ho, your greatbook, This One Summer, and the
classic Maus and Persepolis fromthe Pantheon people, a new wave
of realistic superheroes arebecoming huge hits on TV.
I'm thinking here, especially ofAmazon with The Boys and
Invincible, both which seem tobe doing really well, because
(09:37):
it's that thing about-- and Iremember this as a kid reading
that book, The Science ofSuperheroes, where they talked
about what would actually happenif Superman and Lois Lane
actually made out-- like, itcould be dangerous for her--
Ho Che Anderson (09:50):
It would be dangerous!
Sam Hiyate (09:54):
So any thoughts on this?
Like the different-- emergence--of these genres and the
realistic superhero?
I think now is the time.
Ho Che Anderson (09:58):
I'm going to take this one.
I feel like I'm going to grab onthis one first.
I'm of two minds, cause I'm justabout to dive into the superhero
world myself.
Actually, I've been there for alittle while-- working on
Captain Canuck and now with LukeCage-- and my natural worldview
(10:19):
is to keep things grounded.
But at the same time, we cannotforget that these are people in
bright costumes, tellingmorality tales, and that is a
perfect vehicle for children.
So I never would want to losewhat appeals to-- I mean, a kid
doesn't want to read about thegray areas of life.
They don't want to read aboutcorruption that is not punished.
(10:44):
They want to read about stuff,that corruption, where it is
punished and where the linesbetween good and bad are very
clearly drawn.
At least that's what I thinkmost children respond to.
That starts to get a little morecomplicated as they get older.
So part of me laments the factthat there's not enough, it
didn't seem like enough of thematerial is geared towards just
(11:07):
the pure joy storytelling thatis going to attract children.
I feel like when you've got aguy in a costume like that, when
you try to add too much gray tohim or her, it can sometimes
kind of muddy the waters alittle bit.
And yet, there's still anaudience out there that is going
to respond to that.
And a person like me is going towant to explore those gray
(11:30):
areas.
So I guess I'm just saying thatI'm a little nervous sometimes
when I see too much adultstorytelling in mainstream
superhero comics-- just becauseI don't want it to be the
barrier to attract the nextgeneration.
Does that make any sense?
I want them-- the stories, to dothis, that'll make--
Sam Hiyate (11:52):
That makes a lot of sense.
There's a moral or ethicaldilemma that these producers are
playing with.
Ho Che Anderson (11:56):
In my opinion.
I mean there's room for both,obviously.
It's just that I worry sometimesthat we might be veering a
little too much towards the grimand the gritty, in terms of our
superhero comics.
But that's just me.
Calvin, I'm dying to hear whatyou have to say.
Calvin Reid (12:19):
Well, superhero comics translated into movies.
Really, we just entered into agood period.
That combination of specialeffects, Hollywood gatekeepers,
or specifically directors,actually deciding that if we
cast them with really greatactors, actually work on the
scripts, you know what-- anybodywill love these stories.
(12:42):
They are iconic characters.
Even people who don't read thedoggone comic books, they were
immersed in the mythologies ofSuperman, Captain America-- what
they represent in terms of humanaspiration.
You know, that's where comicsget you.
So to be able to transform theminto movies, which let's face i
(13:06):
t, is the most popular-- I mean,th em a nd what video games?
I mean, it's just a perfectstorm of all of the stuff coming
together around greatstorytelling.
Sam Hiyate (13:19):
I guess my last question is what's the future of
all these genres.
Cause I feel if the market isgrowing so quickly, I feel like
it's-- even though Ho's emergingfrom his creative chaos and
realizing this-- Ho you're goingto get people on bidding wars
for your work soon, I'm sure,especially after they see Luke
Cage,
Ho Che Anderson (13:40):
Your words, to God's ear, you know how that
phrase goes.
Sam Hiyate (13:44):
So, we've got this market and what I'm noticing is
a lot more people are doing it--because for a long time, it
seemed like Kickstarter waswhere a lot of stuff was going.
But now I'm noticing like herein Canada, we have Lev Gleason,
which is now becoming a NorthAmerican company.
My friend Brendan Deneen, whoco-started Scout Comics.
So there's all these newentrants to the marketplace.
(14:06):
So I feel like there's going tobe a great opportunity for new
talent that was never therebefore, because now we're at$1.3
billion, and if the online salesare almost$200 million or
whatever they are, it's like,serious markets.
Yeah.
You guys have any thoughts onthe future?
Ho Che Anderson (14:24):
I love the democratization of the medium
and I love the fact that there'sso many outlets out there where
you can get creative, work thatis done driven by pure passion
and by ideas, out into themarketplace.
(14:46):
And, that there's an audiencefor it.
I just wonder though how much,how many people are going to be
able to make a living out ofdoing it, just by the sheer
number of people who are outthere?
But listen, this is not aninformed opinion.
It's just a one jerk.
Sam Hiyate (15:05):
You're worried about the artists.
You're like, how are they goingto eat?
I love that.
Ho Che Anderson (15:09):
I wonder about that.
Sam Hiyate (15:10):
I worry about that too.
Ho Che Anderson (15:10):
It's a tough business out there for
everybody.
And the more competition thereis out there, the harder it is
for any individual to let's say,manage to like break through the
pack, to make a living.
So in terms of artisticexpression and in terms of the
range of subject matter, I thinkit's never been better.
(15:31):
And I think it's only going toget better.
In terms of sustainability, froma business perspective.
And I'm quite, I'm notquestioning that, but, you know,
Kickstarter's provided greatincomes for a lot of emerging
cartoonists.
So there's, there's clearly away to do it.
Calvin Reid (15:47):
Uh, yeah, I'm going to echo that.
I mean, I didn't go into all ofthe-- describe the market today
as a perfect storm.
But, really it is.
And the biggest part of what Ido believe will make this
sustainable is that the NorthAmerican comics market is no
longer a one genre marketplace.
I love superhero comics, but ifthe world is a bigger place,
(16:12):
than American superhero comics,and you don't see a market like
the U S anywhere else in theworld-- where only one genre is
considered to represent theentire medium-- that's done.
Now, superhero comics are stillthe dominant genre, but we, if
you buy comics, the book tradehas genuinely made comics for
(16:35):
everyone because you got topublish stuff.
That's not just for this narrowthing of eight teenage white
dudes,.
I mean, we have a market thatwomen have, the indie side of
the market, which is really anatural market for the book
trade, is exploding.
That crowdfunding has impactedso many people.
(16:59):
New imprints are launching itseems every day.
Not only do I think it'ssustainable, I think we're in
for a long run of growth andit's never been easier.
It's never been easy to be acomics artist and it probably
never will be.
But any artist-- being an artistis a vote of confidence in your
(17:22):
own talent.
If there's always going to be arisk, but we're seeing a
marketplace now that there aremore options for comics to make
a useful amount of money than Ihave ever seen before.
When I was a kid-- and that wasa long time ago-- either you
worked in superheroes, maybe youcould do gag panels.
And if you were really lucky,you become a syndicated
(17:44):
newspaper cartoonist.
I mean, that was it.
Maybe an illustrator.
Ho Che Anderson (17:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Calvin Reid (17:49):
There's a whole new, different world out here.
The book trade, you can do somany different things, including
just crowdfund the thing.
So, I can go on and on, but I'mgoing to stop there.
This is a good time to be incomics.
Sam Hiyate (18:01):
Yeah.
Thanks everybody.
Calvin Reid, and just like onefinal plug-- he is a genius.
You gotta hear the More to Comepodcast.
Just Google it.
It's part of Publisher's Weekly.
Calvin Reid (18:16):
Ho is a genius! King is one of the great works
of American-- North American--literature.
Somebody needs to take that bookand make it into a movie.
I hope it's still in print.
Isn't it?
Ho Che Anderson (18:27):
Yes sir.
A new edition.
Sam Hiyate (18:31):
Ho got a note from Fantagraphics.
And also, it just sold inBrazil.
Calvin Reid (18:33):
That book is great!
Sam Hiyate (18:37):
Our own Executive Editor, Diane Terrana, asks how
far is too far with young adult?
Diane Terrana (19:02):
Hello, authors.
I was recently in a discussionabout YA novels that deal with
tough subjects.
We were a panel of authors whosebooks were rife with trigger
warnings.
At the end, the moderator askeda question about boundaries.
"Is there anywhere you wouldn'tgo in a YA novel?" I was
surprised that most of theauthors said they would be
solely guided by the story'sneeds and would go wherever it
(19:26):
took them.
Let's think this through.
YA is for kids 12 and older.
Everyone knows that 12 and 18year olds are practically a
different species, yet these YAbooks are lumped together by
publishers, bookstores, andlibraries.
Adults usually buy for youngteens and there is no special
shelf for young teens, just teenliterature,.Older teens buy for
(19:50):
themselves, often preferringadult books.
To further confuse the issue, aconfounding number of adults
devour YA-- just check outGoodreads if you don't believe
me.
So what the heck is the targetaudience?
Well, it is still 12 to 18, inspite of those adult readers,
who by the way, are probablyresponsible for pushing some
limits.
When a book is labeled YAthere's an unspoken covenant
(20:12):
that the material is ageappropriate, and not just for
the older end of the spectrum.
I hope we can all agree thatsome things are not appropriate
for kids, even if we disagreeabout particulars.
And that certain levels ofviolence or sex are deeply
problematic in YA novels ormemoirs.
So let's circle back to thoseauthors who say,"It's all about
(20:32):
the story." Who subjugateeverything to their book as
though it is sacrosanct.
No one loves stories more than Ido.
I even worship certain authors.
And though some stories are inthe realm of sacred literature,
books are not sacred.
Kids are.
And if you aren't willing to putthe interest of kids in front of
the interest of your story,should you even be writing
(20:54):
children's literature?
Maybe you should just stick toadult books.
This is Diane Terrana, editorwith The Rights Factory.
Thanks for listening.
Sam Hiyate (21:11):
for those of you who can resist everything except
temptation, there's nothingbetter than mixing, thinking and
drinking.
Our next piece pairs bottles andbooks.
Today we're chatting withNatalie MacLean, who is the
author of two best selling booksand the host of Unreserved Wine
(21:35):
Talk, which the New York Timesnamed,"One of the seven best
drinks podcasts." Hi, Natalie,welcome to Agent Provocateur.
Or as they say in English, AgentProvocateur.
Natalie MacLean (21:47):
I love it, Sam.
It's great to be here.
Sam Hiyate (21:50):
Awesome.
I'm so excited to have you.
Today, I thought we'd be pairingiconic Canadian books with
various wines.
Let's start with JaelRichardson's debut, Gutter
Child.
This is a fierce coming of agestory set in a dystopian world,
which is divided between theprivileged mainland people and
the disadvantaged gutterinhabitants.
(22:10):
The heroine is one of only 100babies taken from the gutter to
be raised in the mainland as asocial experiment.
But when her mainland motherdies, she finds herself fighting
to survive.
Natalie MacLean (22:24):
Good choice.
I love this book, Sam.
I think of this book ashaunting, like it stays with you
long after you've finished it.
And that is actually how I thinkabout great wines too.
You just keep remembering them.
They keep coming back to you.
And so, I think I would pairJael Richardson's book with a
(22:47):
local favorite from Niagara, 30Bench Small Lot Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc,actually.
And it's made by rockstarwinemaker, Emma Garner.
And it's bold and it's brooding,but, most importantly, this wine
has great structure-- importantfor books too, as I understand,
(23:08):
It's got a long finish thatlasts forever.
So I think it'd be a greatpairing with Gutter Child.
Sam Hiyate (23:15):
Oh my god, what a great line.
So great structure, and a finishto last forever.
I feel like you're reviewing thebook there.
It's awesome
Natalie MacLean (23:23):
Books and bottles, right?
Sam Hiyate (23:24):
So Natalie, are there dystopian wines?
Like what would you do withMargaret Atwood's The Handmaid's
tale?
Natalie MacLean (23:30):
Right.
It's actually funny you bringthat one up because I actually
selected it as a book in highschool for a book report, which
really worried my Englishteacher, because it's got such
dark themes.
So I absolutely loved it, but Iguess in the spirit of a
dystopia, I'm going to do ananti-pairing, Sam.
(23:51):
I don't want to pair thisanti-pairing-- do not pair this
book with the Handmaid's TaleWines.
Sam Hiyate (24:02):
Wait, wait, wait.There's something called
the Handmaid's Tale Wines?
Is this like from the Handmaid'sTale world that somehow got
transposed across the multiverseto here?
Natalie MacLean (24:11):
It did.
So MGM, I think it was-- I wroteabout these wines a while back.
But they did a partnership forthe TV series and here's why I
don't recommend them.
You'd think it'd be a naturalpairing.
They named each wine after thecharacters in the book, like
(24:32):
Offred.
So Offred's Pinot Noir wasdescribed as beguiling and
seductive and she needs to--anyway.
But I thought, why are younaming these wines after the
possessive n on-n ame nonmoniker of the women's
(24:53):
commander?
Why not use their real nameslike June and Emily, if you
really want to get allempowerment about it?
So instead, I would recommendpairing Handmaid's Tale with
Nasty Woman Wines.
I love these.
They're from Oregon andWashington, and each of the
labels of these Nasty WomenWines, which were founded on
(25:15):
election day, 2016-- not g oingt o go there-- but anyway...
Sam Hiyate (25:21):
We can call it anti-Trump wines.
Natalie MacLean (25:23):
No, no, no.
They are anti 45.
But each label features areal-life woman, in sort of like
a gritty black and white photo.
They're staring confidently atthe camera.
There's no photoshopping, nomommy's juice and whatever, but
one of the labels has thepicture of Cheryl Strayed, the
(25:47):
bestselling memoirist of Wild.
Yes, exactly.
So I just love it because she'son the label for Persistent
Pinot Gris.
Of course the winemaker had toget permission, but they tell
the real stories of real womenand the struggles they went
through.
And 20% of the profits go towomen empowerment groups.
So I love the whole backstoryand back label of this wine,
(26:09):
frankly.
So I think that'd be a perfectpairing, whether you're reading
Cheryl Strayed's Wild or TheHandmaid's Tale, because
persistence is everything inflavor.
This wine has a persistent limezest.
And I think most importantly,whether it's books or bottles,
it has no bitter aftertaste.
Sam Hiyate (26:28):
Oh, another great book description.
I'm going to use that.
I'm to call you and say,"Natalie, how would you describe
this book?" Cause then I'll justuse it to pitch it to editors.
Natalie MacLean (26:37):
Exactly.
Just substitute the word bookand bottle.
You'll be fine.
Sam Hiyate (26:40):
Awesome.
So not that this will happenthat often in our lives, but
let's say we're stuck on a boatwith a tiger.
What would be a great wine with,let's say Yann Martel's Life of
Pi,
Natalie MacLean (26:53):
Right.
Well, let's see, that I wouldhave to go with a dessert wine.
Right?
I know it's"pi" versus"pie," butanyway, I would go with Tinhorn
Creek's Kerner Icewine.
So it's got these lusciousflavors of ripe apricot and
peach and honeydew notes that Ithink would be perfect with Life
(27:18):
of Pi, pie, and maybe havingyour cake and eating it too.
Sam Hiyate (27:23):
And maybe the tiger has a sweet tooth.
So you just have to give thewine to the tiger to knock the
tiger out.
Then you can escape.
Natalie MacLean (27:31):
Distract the tiger.
Put the pie at the other end ofthe boat.
And you drink the wine at theother end.
Sam Hiyate (27:36):
Perfect.
What about-- let's move thingsalong here.
What about Emma Donohue's Room?
This is a story of a youngmother and her five-year-old
son, Jack, who are both heldcaptive in a small room for many
years.
It's told from Jack'sperspective, which is
fascinating, especially afterthey're freed from the room.
Jack doesn't want things tochange because that's all he's
(27:56):
ever really known, buteventually when they both
revisit the room, he's able tolet it go-- which is I guess a
message about trauma?
Anyway, the room hasn't changed,but he has.
Natalie MacLean (28:07):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Wow.
Yeah this was a wonderful book.
Again, sorry to lasso it back,but this is my job here.
I think wines change over timetoo.
So, you know, I always love--there's the first time you try
wine and it has a certain taste.
(28:28):
But then, if you go back to thatwine, like a different bottle,
but of the same wine, yearslater, the wine has changed, but
so have you.
And you know, when I open thesame bottle years later, decades
later, I can often rememberexactly where I was, who I was
with, what I was even eating,because our sense of smell is
(28:55):
the only sense that tiesdirectly to emotion and memory
in the brain.
Sam Hiyate (28:59):
That's really interesting
Natalie MacLean (29:01):
Yeah, cause when Proust was eating that
Madeline, it didn't bring backeverything because of how it
tasted, it brought backeverything because of how it
smelled.
You know, as he ate it, you getthe smells.
So, I love doing that,revisiting old wines, old books,
just to see how I've changedover time.
(29:24):
So given Room is a very tightlyconfined setting.
But eventually it's veryexpansive in its scope.
Universal.
That's the ideal for books andbottles-- to start with the
specific and go wide.
I would probably go with aBordeaux, a blend of Cabernet
Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc,Merlot, from a very good vintage
(29:46):
though, like 2020-- 2020, ofcourse wasn't a great vintage
for humans, but it wasspectacular for wines.
Sam Hiyate (29:56):
So somebody won.
And apparently it was a goodyear for books.
If you look back on it.
Natalie MacLean (29:59):
Yeah.
Well, there you go.
See, there's a silver lining orwhatever.
But a Bordeaux like ChateauClarke would not be ready for
drinking right now.
You want to have patience, putit in your cellar so that it
knits together over time andthen comes out more subtle, more
complex, more enjoyable.
(30:20):
As I say, patience does have itsrewards with books sometimes
when you have to get through thetough slog, maybe at the first
or through the middle, but inthe end, if you can stay with
it, often that's the reward.,right?
Sam Hiyate (30:33):
Thanks so much, Natalie.
This has been so enlightening inso many ways.
Except now I feel like-- and I'mnot a day drinker, but I really
feel like I need a glass ofmaybe something red.
Natalie MacLean (30:44):
Then I've done my job.
Sam Hiyate (30:47):
Okay.
So where can we find you andthese pairings?
Natalie MacLean (30:50):
Sure.
So you can find them all at mywebsite, nataliemaclean.com.
And I would love to hear fromthirsty readers and listeners,
if they have a favorite book orbottle pairing, or if they've
got a book that they want me topair.
I guess the last pairing I wouldmake Sam, is with the book that
you and I are working on, mymemoir and I take solace from a
(31:13):
number of the books that we'vejust talked about were rejected
multiple times from variouspublishers.
So I'm going to be tough and I'mgoing to be hopeful and
optimistic this fall when we goout with the memoir on
submission.
And if not, you and I Sam, we'rejust going to have a glass or
four together, right?
Sam Hiyate (31:32):
I'm going to say it's going to be a bottle of
something bubbly.
That's my prediction, when we'redone this whole enterprise.
Thanks so much, Natalie.
Natalie MacLean (31:41):
Cheers, Sam.
Sam Hiyate (31:42):
Great, great chat.
Natalie MacLean (31:44):
Thank you.
Sam Hiyate (31:50):
That's our show folks.
Thanks for your time andattention and to all of our
guests for coming on.
Once again, we're grateful andvery thankful to our producer,
Andrew Kaufman.
And if you do like us and areenjoying Agent Provocateur,
please subscribe for free atagentprovocateur.substack.
com.
And come back next week, when wetalk about Harry and Meghan's
(32:17):
big book deal, and we have ourpanel on men in publishing and
boys in books.
Until then, take care.
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