August 31, 2021 • 28 mins
This week we discuss the gender imbalance in publishing (good thing? bad thing?) and pitching via comps (where audacity is not just allowed, but encouraged). Our panel discussion features actor, writer, and screenwriter, Barbara Radecki, our executive editor Diane Terrana, and the publisher of Cormorant Books, Marc Côté. After the panel, new agent Kathryn Willms shares her thoughts on pitching editors via comps.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:07):
Welcome to Agent Provocateur, Episode Five.
I'm Sam Hiyate, founder and CEOof The Rights Factory.
This week, we have an opinionpiece by Kathryn Willms on the
ubiquitous comping that goes onin our industry...
Kathryn Willms (00:22):
Well, I can only assume everyone's writing books
about catfishing each other, andhow corporate America always
wins.
Sam Hiyate (00:28):
But first, an extended panel on the changing
role of men in publishing andwhy there are so few YA books
for boys, and are they in factrelated?
Today's panel starts with men inpublishing and then moves to
(00:49):
boys and books.
Between 75 to 78% of acquiringeditors are women-- add
marketing and publicity, andthat number is actually higher.
Also between 75 to 78% of bookspublished are female-authored.
In our business, we definitelysee a resistance to buying books
by men about men on the adultfiction side, and memoir.
(01:12):
First question, is this a goodthing?
So for our panel today, we'vegot some of our usual suspects
and some new people.
First up, we have Diane Terrana,my co-host and executive editor
of The Rights Factory.
Diane Terrana (01:33):
Hi everybody.
Sam Hiyate (01:35):
We also have Barbara Radecki, who is an actor turned
writer-- she's the screenwriterof Modern Persuasion with Alicia
Witt.
And she's the author of two YAnovels, The Darkhouse, and
Messenger 93.
Barbara Radecki (01:50):
Hey there, thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate (01:52):
And finally we have, Marc Cote, who is the publisher
of Cormorant Books in Toronto,and generally a very wise and
funny guy.
Marc Cote (01:56):
Hello, everyone.
Sam Hiyate (01:56):
Okay.
So I'm going to start with thefirst question.
Looking at this kind of genderimbalance, is this a good thing?
I'm going to start with DianeTerrana.
Diane Terrana (02:17):
Okay.
So I think it's a bad thing.
And I've said so publicly for afew years now, in spite of
getting bad looks and hisses andboos from friends.
But I don't think it's a goodthing that we don't have
basically equal numbers of menand women in publishing.
I think the fact that we can'tsell men in books is directly
(02:42):
related to that.
And do I think that's a badthing that we don't have stories
by men about men?
Absolutely.
Although some of my friends willliterally clap and grin when I
bring that subject up.
My female friends.
A New York agent just recentlypenned a piece mocking a male
author who had complained aboutmisandry in the publishing
(03:05):
industry.
And her response was basicallyto call him"a poor little man,"
and to tell him to learn how towrite.
But, Sam and I have put out somegorgeous books by men about men
and we get just nothing butpasses.
And sometimes they're frank.
Sometimes they will actuallysay, we're not looking for
male-driven stories right now.
And why is that a bad thing?
Sam Hiyate (03:27):
Or male memoirs don't sell.
Diane Terrana (03:27):
Oh my god, male memoirs, no.
But why is that a bad thing?
Well, it's a bad thing becausewe share the world.
We women share the world withyou men and all women have men
that they love, or most women do-- a grandfather, a father, an
uncle, a brother, a husband, apartner, sons for god's sakes--
people we wish well in theworld.
(03:47):
And for me, being out there anddoing your best in the world
means to have representation inliterature.
So Marc Cote, who is the braveman who h as agreed to join this
panel, in a recent Guardianarticle, none of the male
publishers would give theirnames.
They only agreed to be quotedanonymously about this topic.
Marc, you're a male publisher.
How does it look from whereyou're sitting?
Marc Cote (04:12):
Okay.
Well, there are a whole ton offactors here.
And I'll begin by saying, as anacquiring editor and somebody
who's been doing this now for 25years, I have never thought of
only acquiring books thatreflected my sense of the world
or reflected me or my kind ofpeople.
(04:33):
In fact, I have actively soughtbooks that were different from
me and saw the world and expressthe world in a terrifically
different way.
So I don't think that alleditors are going to acquire
manuscripts that reflectthemselves.
And it even comes down toprizes.
(04:55):
A number of years ago, there wasa big discussion about how
male-dominated juries only gaveawards to males, male writers.
So I did a little bit of asurvey on the Governor General's
Literary Awards and the GillerPrize.
And it turned out that up until,oh gosh, 2014, every time there
(05:18):
were more women on a jury thanmen, the prize was invariably
given to a man.
Diane Terrana (05:24):
Oh, wow.
Marc Cote (05:27):
And that includes people like Alice Munro and
Margaret Atwood, giving awardsto Vincent Lam or Michael
Ondaatje or et cetera-- JosephBoyden.
So I don't think that that's aserious problem.
(05:49):
I do think, however, thatwhenever you have publishing
houses dominated significantlyby one gender or in truth, one
race or one religion, you aregoing to have built-in biases,
no matter what.
And that's something-- you wanta publishing house that reflects
the population it's out there toserve.
(06:11):
And you know, what good is apublishing house of any stature
that is really, really narrow.
Unless of course it was set upfor that purpose.
So publishing houses likeMawenzi House, they should do
exactly what they're doing.
But literary publishing houseslike Cormorant, our mandate is
to publish widely.
And we try to do that.
(06:34):
The other problem though, andthis is a publisher speaking to
an agent-- books written by menand books about men tend not to
get reviewed.
The authors tend not to beinterviewed or profiled.
You are-- we are literallypushing a rock up a hill and
(06:58):
with very poor interviews withvery poor coverage, guess what--
very poor sales.
Sam Hiyate (07:04):
So are you saying this could be part of some kind
of self-fulfilling prophecy?
Marc Cote (07:09):
In a way there is an aspect to it.
I think there is that aspect toit, Sam.
I think as well-- I studiedliterature in university and I'm
going to say the periods of thegreatest literature that
mankind, humankind, has producedare periods of change.
(07:33):
And the great literature comesfrom the agents of change.
And it can be argued right nowthat in general, women are the
agents of change more than menare.
Sam Hiyate (07:48):
That's a good point, for sure.
Marc Cote (07:50):
That's where the pendulum is going to swing.
We're going to listen to thosevoices that are calling for
changes in the same way that,you know, 400 years later, 500
years later, we're stilllistening to Shakespeare.
Sam Hiyate (08:04):
I'm gonna switch over cause I see Barbara nodding
and also she's the one thatrewrote Jane Austen for film.
So Barbara, what do you thinkabout all this?
Barbara Radecki (08:14):
I have so many things I want to say to all of
this.
Actually, when I was sort ofpreparing for this talk today, I
actually wrote down that we arein an era of great questioning,
meaning, great change.
And I actually absolutely agreewith Marc's point about, you
know, there is a new voicecoming up right now and if that
voice is predominantly women andhopefully now more racially
(08:35):
diverse, I believe this is afundamentally important and good
thing.
But I will also say that, ofcourse I love male writers and
you know, male writers are someof my best friends, so it's not
that I don't wish male writersill or that I wish them ill,
it's that I want to see whathappens when we enter this new
(08:56):
era and will the nature ofstorytelling-- the fabric of
storytelling, fundamentallychange.
If we have a great era of femalevoices and voices of color being
represented, maybe in a pendulumswinging imbalanced kind of way,
(09:17):
what will happen out of thattime?
That doesn't mean that men won'tbe able to write and publish and
be read, even widely.
I mean, it's almost hard tobelieve that men, male writers
are not being read widely when Ilook at bestseller lists and
when I look at lists even ofwhat children are reading.
So it's a little bit hard for meto believe that, but I also do
(09:39):
want to go back a little bit tothe point about women nominating
male writers more often whenthey were on juries.
Well, when I first gotpublished, when The Darkhouse
first got published, I joinedsocial media and found a thread
almost immediately about in thewriting industry, about the fact
that women editors-- who are toDiane's point very predominantly
(10:02):
part of the industry-- that theywere more likely to publish a
male writer than they were topublish a female writer.
And so-- this is five years ago-- so if there's an imbalance,
that's happened in like the lasttwo or three years.
Okay.
We're very, very early in thependulum curve.
(10:22):
The other thing then, I mean,you're, Diane and Sam, you're
both, agents.
So you would know this maybeeven better.
But the other thread I found wasjust a year ago, where on
average-- there was a threadgoing around about asking
people, asking writers whattheir advances were.
And inevitably the male writers-- the white male writers-- were
(10:43):
getting up to 10 times more thanthe average.
Average white male writer versusaverage female writer versus a
writer of color.
So, it's almost hard to acceptthat we're in this time of male
writers being suppressed.
Marc Cote (11:02):
I can't let that one go because I'm going to say this
.
I'm going to say, those areself- reporting numbers and you
know, it's like when publishersget together.
I used to say there was aformula for figuring out the
truth of when somebody said,"Ohyeah, that first novel we
published sold 82,000 copies."And I used to say multiply by
(11:25):
two and divide by five and youget the real number.
Barbara Radecki (11:28):
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Marc Cote (11:30):
So I think one of the problems is the white guys are
feeling a little bit downtroddenor perhaps feeling they're
losing their privileges.
So they're going to inflate thesize of their advances.
Diane Terrana (11:50):
The other thing is, if I can just jump on Marc's
point, as long as I've worked atthe Rights Factory, this is a
trend that I've seen.
Certainly not just in the lasttwo or three years, with having
trouble getting men's books outthere, getting any interest in
them.
Barbara Radecki (12:07):
Okay.
So I have a question, then.
Is it because that's what themarket is dictating?
Are there fewer male readersthan there are female readers--
especially of the kind of booksyou're talking about.
Sam Hiyate (12:20):
This is actually such an interesting question
because when I'm working withwriters, there is in fact, one
particular ex-client-- I can sayex-client now-- who kind of had
the same story, told a couple oftimes, of an older male figure
with a younger female character-- kind of bad romances.
And he had published two ofthese and he kept saying,"I want
(12:43):
to do another one." I'm like,"Dude, you have done two of
these.
It's done.
And not just you, Phillip Roth,like all these writers that came
before you, all the way back,probably to Aristophanes., You
know, I mean, it's there, it'sdone.
It's part of culture.
Let's focus on something else.
So I think as agents, we havethat responsibility to tell
somebody something, if it'sgoing to help their career and
(13:06):
not kind of rehash the same oldstuff.
Diane Terrana (13:10):
Totally.
And to go back and answer one ofBarbara's questions, like 80% of
readers are female, and that isthe truth.
Sam Hiyate (13:18):
Of fiction.
Literary fiction, especially.
Diane Terrana (13:20):
Of literary fiction, sorry, are females and
so that does affect everything.
But that brings me beautifully--thank you Barbara Radecki, to
the second half of this panel--something I feel most
passionately about as a formerhigh school teacher: boys in
books.
A study came out, some academicpapers came out from England a
(13:43):
couple of years ago with therevelation that boys don't read
well.
Well, if that was a revelationto anybody, I can't imagine to
whom.
Every teacher in the world knewthat.
Almost everybody who ever wentto school with a boy should have
known that.
The girls in the class werealways the big readers.
And the problem is thisacademic, these papers this
(14:11):
psychologist in England.
As he pointed out, reading leadsto literacy, reading leads to
success in school, success inschool leads to all kinds of
good things in the world.
So what are we doing, he asked,to help the boys read.
Well, he found that in hisstudies that boys had the same
complaint over the entire UK.
The books, they don't like thebooks.
(14:33):
They could name five books orsix books.
Ten, if you count the HarryPotter books and a couple of
others that they like to read.
And that is a problem.
Why aren't we as a societyinvesting into-- forget how much
money we're making, as asociety, this sort of goes
beyond that-- investing in ourboys, giving them books, they
like to read.
(14:53):
The truth is, boys.don't likethe same books girls like,
except for very rare exceptions,like Harry Potter.
And you know, when I was a girl,I was a great reader.
And when I was out of the NancyDrews in the library, I was
happy to go to the Hardy Boys.
But I would've preferred NancyDrews because I prefer to read
about girls.
Boys need books with boys inthem as main characters.
(15:17):
And just-- I'm going to finishthis off with an anecdote from
the When Words Collide Festivaltwo years ago-- when I was being
a bit of a glib idiot, I was ona panel about boys in books, and
I made the comment, well, ifboys would read more.
I was also feeling a bit upsetbecause I'd had to quit writing
a book about a boy, based on myson's battle with cancer.
(15:37):
After I was told, nobody caresabout one, cancer; two, boys.
So I was in a bit of a mood.
And I said, if boys would readmore, publishers would publish
more books for them.
And an author, a male author onthe panel said,"You know, can I
just take issue with that?" Hesaid, boys need books that they
want to read.
(15:57):
And he grew up in a small miningtown in Northern Alberta.
And there was one book in thelibrary that the boys wanted to
read (16:03):
Call of the Wild.
And you could, he said, youcould never get it, because the
waiting list was so long.
And, I knew this as a generaltruth to be true, and I repented
immediately for being glib aboutit.
But I'm going to throw out toyou, Barbara, first.
What do we think about how toget boys involved in books?
(16:25):
So they improve their literacyand their lives improve?
Barbara Radecki (16:28):
I certainly agree that literacy improves
lives.
We know that being literate,reading, is one of the best ways
to increase empathy, which isanother reason why I think it's
so important that boys also readwith female leads and books that
are, unabashedly written bywomen, in order to potentially
increase that empathy in orderto potentially change, you know,
(16:51):
do all books that boys like haveto be about fighting or violence
or--
Diane Terrana (16:59):
But no.
The Call of the Wild is not.
Barbara Radecki (17:01):
Fair enough.
Diane Terrana (17:02):
It is about empathy.
Barbara Radecki (17:02):
Yeah.
I'm actually thinking more aboutthe kinds of stories that we
know to be popular with boys, ina stereotypical way, right now
being like graphic novels andsuperhero stories and that kind
of thing.
I mean, I think boys are stillconsuming that materials.
So the question is (17:18):
what is the kind of material that's going to
be interesting to a boy, thathas a different kind of
direction to it.
So, I mean, I agree.
I think it would be whatever wecan come up with.
If we have to plan today of whatboys are going to pick up and
read and find interesting, I'mall for it.
Diane Terrana (17:38):
And Marc, you have a YA acquisitions editor,
who's also male.
What's the Cormorant record likeon publishing books for boys?
Marc Cote (17:46):
That's a very interesting question because we
don't actually set out topublish books for boys or for
girls.
There have been discussionsabout the fact that the vast
number of our books-- our YAbooks-- are written by women and
they feature femaleprotagonists, but our
(18:08):
best-selling YA book is not afemale protagonist, it's a male
protagonist.
And it was written by a womanand it's selling like hotcakes.
And we just learned today, TheMarrow Thieves by Shari
Dimaline, is in Time Magazine'stop 100 YA books of all time.
Diane Terrana (18:31):
Wow.
So impressive.
Barbara Radecki (18:34):
Amazing.
Sam Hiyate (18:35):
Awesome.
Marc Cote (18:36):
And I'll also say we make a point of trying to come
up with books that are ofinterest, that are well-written.
So for example, The Darkhouse: it's a mystery, and you can read (18:45):
undefined
that book without actuallyworrying about-- I mean, it does
matter that the narrator is awoman, a young girl-- that
matters, but it's not anessential part of the book in
that way.
It's a ripping good story.
Barbara Radecki (19:07):
Thanks.
Marc Cote (19:07):
I think that helps to keep people reading, but the
reality is boys don'tphysically, intellectually, or
psychologically mature, untilthey hit 16, 17.
Sam Hiyate (19:20):
Or like in my case, maybe 25.
Marc Cote (19:23):
Right.
But here's the thing.
So what we need are acombination of factors.
We need books of seriousinterest to boys.
Boys like mysteries, boys likehumor.
Let's get those books out, let'sget those books, read-- Andrew,
and other people-- and get themin the hands of the boys.
(19:44):
We need the review media to geton board with this.
And I will say now, the majorreview media, particularly in
the United States is starting tosay, we need more boy-centered
books.
They're pushing for that.
And they're going to givepriority to those books.
So that's going to switch.
That will affect librarians,teacher, librarians, and
(20:06):
teachers, and they will make theeffort.
But some of this is like-- youknow, recently, just this last
week, the Olympics, the Canadianwomen athletes did best in
Tokyo, far better than the men.
But that's the result of about20 years of the Canadian
government, putting money intotraining women athletes because
(20:29):
they had been ignored for solong.
And what we have to do is overthe course of the next 20 years,
figure out the balance.
So we're doing everybodyequally.
And that's where I think we'regoing to be, particularly in the
case of boys-- boys, andreading.
Because I think they'rereachable, but they will never
be totally accessible, simplybecause of the physical,
(20:50):
emotional, and psychologicaldelay in maturation, which is
biological, not much we can doabout it.
Sam Hiyate (20:57):
So here's a question.
So I can't remember where I readthis, but I think that J K
Rowling made Harry Potter a boybecause she wanted to embrace
the male audience.
She knew that if it was a girlcharacter, that the boys might
not read it.
But I feel then, when The HungerGames came out, the boys read
(21:18):
The Hunger Games because Iguess, cause Katniss is a
killer.
Katniss wasn't traditional--there's a gender switch.
Katniss became somebody that theboys could say, I love Katniss.
And I could, put myself in her.
So there's this thing thathappened.
I think in culture, for teenboys, with The Hunger Games,
that wasn't there before, wherethey could embrace a female
(21:41):
character.
And I talked to somebody elseabout that-- that we were going
to have this talk and they said,this was a female writer who
said that when she grew up, thatthey all had to read in, I think
m iddle g rade or maybe highschool, a book called Hatchet.
And it was about a boy who had ahatchet who had to survive.
And I'd never heard of thisstory, but they said all the
boys loved it, but the girlswere so bored with t his story.
Marc Cote (22:04):
Well, when I was in high school, I think it was
grade eight.
We all had to read The Outsidersby S.
E.
Hinton.
Right.
We all read that.
And S.E.
Hinton was Sally.
No one talked about the factthat it was a woman writer.
It was just a great story.
Barbara Radecki (22:20):
Well, just like JK Rowling had to use the
initials because they felt moreboys would read her.
And, that also rounds back towhy do we have to hide the
identity of female writers inorder to lure boys in?
That's something that, you know,I think needs to shift.
Although I, again, how does oneenforce these kinds of shifts?
Boys are going to read andshould read.
(22:42):
But they're also going to readwhat they want to read, right?
So we can't, we can't legislateit.
Marc Cote (22:48):
No, no, we can't legislate it, but we can
encourage it.
Right?
All of us, all of us havestories of some teacher at some
point in our lines, putting abook in our hands and following
up.
All of us.
And that teacher, whatever thebook was, they made a huge
difference.
Sam Hiyate (23:06):
Okay.
I think anybody have any finalthoughts?
Cause I feel like we said a lothere.
I feel a little tired justlistening to all this, but...
Diane Terrana (23:16):
Well, I just want to thank everyone for an
absolutely stupendousdiscussion.
Barbara Radecki (23:20):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
I feel like I'm going to bethinking of all kinds of things
I want to say after we partways.
Marc Cote (23:27):
I agree with Barbara.
This panel could have gone onfor another hour.
Barbara Radecki (23:31):
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (23:31):
Thanks Marc.
Thank you so much, guys.
We'll see you next time.
Diane Terrana (23:35):
Thank you so much.
Sam Hiyate (23:38):
Bye.
Bye.
Pitching 101.
Usually, to persuade an editorto read a new story, it's easier
(24:03):
if you comp it to a similarstory that was massive-- or is
it?
New agent Kathryn Willmsdiscusses comps and her first
offer.
Kathryn Willms (24:18):
Hi, I'm Kathryn Willms and I'm an associate
agent at The Rights Factory.
Today.
I'm doing an opinion piece.
Nope.
Let's pitch it as a pitiful cryinto the void.
Like if the man in EdvardMunch's, The Scream was replaced
by a whiny baby or Katniss sleptin and Primrose Everdeen went to
the hunger games.
That's right, we're talkingcomps.
(24:39):
I'm a relatively new agent.
In fact, I've just had my firstoffer on my first ever
submission, which is awesome.
And I've been thinking aboutcomps because of a discussion I
had with that author.
In her proposal, she haddescribed the book as a cross
between two other famous piecesof art.
I kept taking out thatcomparison and then she kept
putting it back in.
Her comps were good ones.
(24:59):
Yet my inclination was to losethem.
Which got me thinking (25:00):
What is it about comps that rubs me the
wrong way?
Two thoughts come to mind.
One, if you pitch a book bydescribing it as a combination
of two other things, inevitably,invariably, I will not know what
one of those things are.
Some examples (25:16):
pitched as Dexter (yes) and Pushing Daisies(nope).
Pitches (25:20):
True Grit(sure) meets Sarah Waters(who?) So now not
only do I feel stupid, I have toread an author's whole oeuvre or
watch a television series.
Second (25:34):
comps are finicky.
Every author knows not to comptheir book using Harry Potter,
but it's also poor practice touse an obscure comp.
One author used a comp, and Iwas like,"Hey, I need to read
this book." And then I did.
And it was too good.
Her sample couldn't match up.
But here's the thing-- fromauthors to publicists, to
agents, to editors, tobooksellers the publishing
(25:55):
industry loves comps.
They could be handy as shorthandfor anything from plot to mood,
to genre, to audience.
So I decided to suck it up, goon Publishers Marketplace and
learn more.
Here's what I found out.
Two super common comps (26:08):
Get Out and You've Got Mail.
Get Out, of course, usedfittingly as a comp for books on
brain transplants.
Just kidding.
Probably something to do withthe insidious nature of racism.
And You've Got Mail.
Well, I can only assumeeveryone's writing books about
catfishing each other and howcorporate America always wins.
Given the last 18 months.
(26:29):
Sure.
That makes sense.
Also, audacity is allowed, nayencouraged.
Here's some quotes from deals--pitched as part Ted Lasso, part
Wednesday Adams and full ofroadkill research.
Color me intrigued.
Or pitched (26:43):
a s The Graduate meets Catcher in the Rye by way
of S chitt's Creek with alesbian twist, with Mrs.
Robinson meeting HoldenCaulfield.
Hunh?
Or, pitched as a femaleShawshank Redemption with
vampires-- what is evenhappening?
So I was a bout ready to w riteoff comps, but here's the
(27:06):
problem.
My author, the one who got theoffer, she was right.
We pitched that book usingFiddler on the Roof and
Schindler's List.
The editor loved it and itworked.
So maybe there is something tocomps after all.
I'll let you know.
In the meantime, I'm off towatch F iddler on the Roof.
I'm Kathryn from TRF.
Thanks for listening.
Sam Hiyate (27:42):
Well, that's our show folks.
Thanks to all our guests and ourproducer, Andrew Kaufman.
Most of all, thank you forlistening.
If you like us, please share thelove and post a review on
whatever podcast channel you'relistening to us on.
And also subscribe on substack.
Next week is our last show ofseason one, featuring issues
(28:03):
around writing narrativenonfiction and the dangerous
ideas that they might engender.
Take care.
Welcome to Agent Provocateur, Episode Five.
I'm Sam Hiyate, founder and CEOof The Rights Factory.
This week, we have an opinionpiece by Kathryn Willms on the
ubiquitous comping that goes onin our industry...
Kathryn Willms (00:22):
Well, I can only assume everyone's writing books
about catfishing each other, andhow corporate America always
wins.
Sam Hiyate (00:28):
But first, an extended panel on the changing
role of men in publishing andwhy there are so few YA books
for boys, and are they in factrelated?
Today's panel starts with men inpublishing and then moves to
(00:49):
boys and books.
Between 75 to 78% of acquiringeditors are women-- add
marketing and publicity, andthat number is actually higher.
Also between 75 to 78% of bookspublished are female-authored.
In our business, we definitelysee a resistance to buying books
by men about men on the adultfiction side, and memoir.
(01:12):
First question, is this a goodthing?
So for our panel today, we'vegot some of our usual suspects
and some new people.
First up, we have Diane Terrana,my co-host and executive editor
of The Rights Factory.
Diane Terrana (01:33):
Hi everybody.
Sam Hiyate (01:35):
We also have Barbara Radecki, who is an actor turned
writer-- she's the screenwriterof Modern Persuasion with Alicia
Witt.
And she's the author of two YAnovels, The Darkhouse, and
Messenger 93.
Barbara Radecki (01:50):
Hey there, thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate (01:52):
And finally we have, Marc Cote, who is the publisher
of Cormorant Books in Toronto,and generally a very wise and
funny guy.
Marc Cote (01:56):
Hello, everyone.
Sam Hiyate (01:56):
Okay.
So I'm going to start with thefirst question.
Looking at this kind of genderimbalance, is this a good thing?
I'm going to start with DianeTerrana.
Diane Terrana (02:17):
Okay.
So I think it's a bad thing.
And I've said so publicly for afew years now, in spite of
getting bad looks and hisses andboos from friends.
But I don't think it's a goodthing that we don't have
basically equal numbers of menand women in publishing.
I think the fact that we can'tsell men in books is directly
(02:42):
related to that.
And do I think that's a badthing that we don't have stories
by men about men?
Absolutely.
Although some of my friends willliterally clap and grin when I
bring that subject up.
My female friends.
A New York agent just recentlypenned a piece mocking a male
author who had complained aboutmisandry in the publishing
(03:05):
industry.
And her response was basicallyto call him"a poor little man,"
and to tell him to learn how towrite.
But, Sam and I have put out somegorgeous books by men about men
and we get just nothing butpasses.
And sometimes they're frank.
Sometimes they will actuallysay, we're not looking for
male-driven stories right now.
And why is that a bad thing?
Sam Hiyate (03:27):
Or male memoirs don't sell.
Diane Terrana (03:27):
Oh my god, male memoirs, no.
But why is that a bad thing?
Well, it's a bad thing becausewe share the world.
We women share the world withyou men and all women have men
that they love, or most women do-- a grandfather, a father, an
uncle, a brother, a husband, apartner, sons for god's sakes--
people we wish well in theworld.
(03:47):
And for me, being out there anddoing your best in the world
means to have representation inliterature.
So Marc Cote, who is the braveman who h as agreed to join this
panel, in a recent Guardianarticle, none of the male
publishers would give theirnames.
They only agreed to be quotedanonymously about this topic.
Marc, you're a male publisher.
How does it look from whereyou're sitting?
Marc Cote (04:12):
Okay.
Well, there are a whole ton offactors here.
And I'll begin by saying, as anacquiring editor and somebody
who's been doing this now for 25years, I have never thought of
only acquiring books thatreflected my sense of the world
or reflected me or my kind ofpeople.
(04:33):
In fact, I have actively soughtbooks that were different from
me and saw the world and expressthe world in a terrifically
different way.
So I don't think that alleditors are going to acquire
manuscripts that reflectthemselves.
And it even comes down toprizes.
(04:55):
A number of years ago, there wasa big discussion about how
male-dominated juries only gaveawards to males, male writers.
So I did a little bit of asurvey on the Governor General's
Literary Awards and the GillerPrize.
And it turned out that up until,oh gosh, 2014, every time there
(05:18):
were more women on a jury thanmen, the prize was invariably
given to a man.
Diane Terrana (05:24):
Oh, wow.
Marc Cote (05:27):
And that includes people like Alice Munro and
Margaret Atwood, giving awardsto Vincent Lam or Michael
Ondaatje or et cetera-- JosephBoyden.
So I don't think that that's aserious problem.
(05:49):
I do think, however, thatwhenever you have publishing
houses dominated significantlyby one gender or in truth, one
race or one religion, you aregoing to have built-in biases,
no matter what.
And that's something-- you wanta publishing house that reflects
the population it's out there toserve.
(06:11):
And you know, what good is apublishing house of any stature
that is really, really narrow.
Unless of course it was set upfor that purpose.
So publishing houses likeMawenzi House, they should do
exactly what they're doing.
But literary publishing houseslike Cormorant, our mandate is
to publish widely.
And we try to do that.
(06:34):
The other problem though, andthis is a publisher speaking to
an agent-- books written by menand books about men tend not to
get reviewed.
The authors tend not to beinterviewed or profiled.
You are-- we are literallypushing a rock up a hill and
(06:58):
with very poor interviews withvery poor coverage, guess what--
very poor sales.
Sam Hiyate (07:04):
So are you saying this could be part of some kind
of self-fulfilling prophecy?
Marc Cote (07:09):
In a way there is an aspect to it.
I think there is that aspect toit, Sam.
I think as well-- I studiedliterature in university and I'm
going to say the periods of thegreatest literature that
mankind, humankind, has producedare periods of change.
(07:33):
And the great literature comesfrom the agents of change.
And it can be argued right nowthat in general, women are the
agents of change more than menare.
Sam Hiyate (07:48):
That's a good point, for sure.
Marc Cote (07:50):
That's where the pendulum is going to swing.
We're going to listen to thosevoices that are calling for
changes in the same way that,you know, 400 years later, 500
years later, we're stilllistening to Shakespeare.
Sam Hiyate (08:04):
I'm gonna switch over cause I see Barbara nodding
and also she's the one thatrewrote Jane Austen for film.
So Barbara, what do you thinkabout all this?
Barbara Radecki (08:14):
I have so many things I want to say to all of
this.
Actually, when I was sort ofpreparing for this talk today, I
actually wrote down that we arein an era of great questioning,
meaning, great change.
And I actually absolutely agreewith Marc's point about, you
know, there is a new voicecoming up right now and if that
voice is predominantly women andhopefully now more racially
(08:35):
diverse, I believe this is afundamentally important and good
thing.
But I will also say that, ofcourse I love male writers and
you know, male writers are someof my best friends, so it's not
that I don't wish male writersill or that I wish them ill,
it's that I want to see whathappens when we enter this new
(08:56):
era and will the nature ofstorytelling-- the fabric of
storytelling, fundamentallychange.
If we have a great era of femalevoices and voices of color being
represented, maybe in a pendulumswinging imbalanced kind of way,
(09:17):
what will happen out of thattime?
That doesn't mean that men won'tbe able to write and publish and
be read, even widely.
I mean, it's almost hard tobelieve that men, male writers
are not being read widely when Ilook at bestseller lists and
when I look at lists even ofwhat children are reading.
So it's a little bit hard for meto believe that, but I also do
(09:39):
want to go back a little bit tothe point about women nominating
male writers more often whenthey were on juries.
Well, when I first gotpublished, when The Darkhouse
first got published, I joinedsocial media and found a thread
almost immediately about in thewriting industry, about the fact
that women editors-- who are toDiane's point very predominantly
(10:02):
part of the industry-- that theywere more likely to publish a
male writer than they were topublish a female writer.
And so-- this is five years ago-- so if there's an imbalance,
that's happened in like the lasttwo or three years.
Okay.
We're very, very early in thependulum curve.
(10:22):
The other thing then, I mean,you're, Diane and Sam, you're
both, agents.
So you would know this maybeeven better.
But the other thread I found wasjust a year ago, where on
average-- there was a threadgoing around about asking
people, asking writers whattheir advances were.
And inevitably the male writers-- the white male writers-- were
(10:43):
getting up to 10 times more thanthe average.
Average white male writer versusaverage female writer versus a
writer of color.
So, it's almost hard to acceptthat we're in this time of male
writers being suppressed.
Marc Cote (11:02):
I can't let that one go because I'm going to say this
.
I'm going to say, those areself- reporting numbers and you
know, it's like when publishersget together.
I used to say there was aformula for figuring out the
truth of when somebody said,"Ohyeah, that first novel we
published sold 82,000 copies."And I used to say multiply by
(11:25):
two and divide by five and youget the real number.
Barbara Radecki (11:28):
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
Marc Cote (11:30):
So I think one of the problems is the white guys are
feeling a little bit downtroddenor perhaps feeling they're
losing their privileges.
So they're going to inflate thesize of their advances.
Diane Terrana (11:50):
The other thing is, if I can just jump on Marc's
point, as long as I've worked atthe Rights Factory, this is a
trend that I've seen.
Certainly not just in the lasttwo or three years, with having
trouble getting men's books outthere, getting any interest in
them.
Barbara Radecki (12:07):
Okay.
So I have a question, then.
Is it because that's what themarket is dictating?
Are there fewer male readersthan there are female readers--
especially of the kind of booksyou're talking about.
Sam Hiyate (12:20):
This is actually such an interesting question
because when I'm working withwriters, there is in fact, one
particular ex-client-- I can sayex-client now-- who kind of had
the same story, told a couple oftimes, of an older male figure
with a younger female character-- kind of bad romances.
And he had published two ofthese and he kept saying,"I want
(12:43):
to do another one." I'm like,"Dude, you have done two of
these.
It's done.
And not just you, Phillip Roth,like all these writers that came
before you, all the way back,probably to Aristophanes., You
know, I mean, it's there, it'sdone.
It's part of culture.
Let's focus on something else.
So I think as agents, we havethat responsibility to tell
somebody something, if it'sgoing to help their career and
(13:06):
not kind of rehash the same oldstuff.
Diane Terrana (13:10):
Totally.
And to go back and answer one ofBarbara's questions, like 80% of
readers are female, and that isthe truth.
Sam Hiyate (13:18):
Of fiction.
Literary fiction, especially.
Diane Terrana (13:20):
Of literary fiction, sorry, are females and
so that does affect everything.
But that brings me beautifully--thank you Barbara Radecki, to
the second half of this panel--something I feel most
passionately about as a formerhigh school teacher: boys in
books.
A study came out, some academicpapers came out from England a
(13:43):
couple of years ago with therevelation that boys don't read
well.
Well, if that was a revelationto anybody, I can't imagine to
whom.
Every teacher in the world knewthat.
Almost everybody who ever wentto school with a boy should have
known that.
The girls in the class werealways the big readers.
And the problem is thisacademic, these papers this
(14:11):
psychologist in England.
As he pointed out, reading leadsto literacy, reading leads to
success in school, success inschool leads to all kinds of
good things in the world.
So what are we doing, he asked,to help the boys read.
Well, he found that in hisstudies that boys had the same
complaint over the entire UK.
The books, they don't like thebooks.
(14:33):
They could name five books orsix books.
Ten, if you count the HarryPotter books and a couple of
others that they like to read.
And that is a problem.
Why aren't we as a societyinvesting into-- forget how much
money we're making, as asociety, this sort of goes
beyond that-- investing in ourboys, giving them books, they
like to read.
(14:53):
The truth is, boys.don't likethe same books girls like,
except for very rare exceptions,like Harry Potter.
And you know, when I was a girl,I was a great reader.
And when I was out of the NancyDrews in the library, I was
happy to go to the Hardy Boys.
But I would've preferred NancyDrews because I prefer to read
about girls.
Boys need books with boys inthem as main characters.
(15:17):
And just-- I'm going to finishthis off with an anecdote from
the When Words Collide Festivaltwo years ago-- when I was being
a bit of a glib idiot, I was ona panel about boys in books, and
I made the comment, well, ifboys would read more.
I was also feeling a bit upsetbecause I'd had to quit writing
a book about a boy, based on myson's battle with cancer.
(15:37):
After I was told, nobody caresabout one, cancer; two, boys.
So I was in a bit of a mood.
And I said, if boys would readmore, publishers would publish
more books for them.
And an author, a male author onthe panel said,"You know, can I
just take issue with that?" Hesaid, boys need books that they
want to read.
(15:57):
And he grew up in a small miningtown in Northern Alberta.
And there was one book in thelibrary that the boys wanted to
read (16:03):
Call of the Wild.
And you could, he said, youcould never get it, because the
waiting list was so long.
And, I knew this as a generaltruth to be true, and I repented
immediately for being glib aboutit.
But I'm going to throw out toyou, Barbara, first.
What do we think about how toget boys involved in books?
(16:25):
So they improve their literacyand their lives improve?
Barbara Radecki (16:28):
I certainly agree that literacy improves
lives.
We know that being literate,reading, is one of the best ways
to increase empathy, which isanother reason why I think it's
so important that boys also readwith female leads and books that
are, unabashedly written bywomen, in order to potentially
increase that empathy in orderto potentially change, you know,
(16:51):
do all books that boys like haveto be about fighting or violence
or--
Diane Terrana (16:59):
But no.
The Call of the Wild is not.
Barbara Radecki (17:01):
Fair enough.
Diane Terrana (17:02):
It is about empathy.
Barbara Radecki (17:02):
Yeah.
I'm actually thinking more aboutthe kinds of stories that we
know to be popular with boys, ina stereotypical way, right now
being like graphic novels andsuperhero stories and that kind
of thing.
I mean, I think boys are stillconsuming that materials.
So the question is (17:18):
what is the kind of material that's going to
be interesting to a boy, thathas a different kind of
direction to it.
So, I mean, I agree.
I think it would be whatever wecan come up with.
If we have to plan today of whatboys are going to pick up and
read and find interesting, I'mall for it.
Diane Terrana (17:38):
And Marc, you have a YA acquisitions editor,
who's also male.
What's the Cormorant record likeon publishing books for boys?
Marc Cote (17:46):
That's a very interesting question because we
don't actually set out topublish books for boys or for
girls.
There have been discussionsabout the fact that the vast
number of our books-- our YAbooks-- are written by women and
they feature femaleprotagonists, but our
(18:08):
best-selling YA book is not afemale protagonist, it's a male
protagonist.
And it was written by a womanand it's selling like hotcakes.
And we just learned today, TheMarrow Thieves by Shari
Dimaline, is in Time Magazine'stop 100 YA books of all time.
Diane Terrana (18:31):
Wow.
So impressive.
Barbara Radecki (18:34):
Amazing.
Sam Hiyate (18:35):
Awesome.
Marc Cote (18:36):
And I'll also say we make a point of trying to come
up with books that are ofinterest, that are well-written.
So for example, The Darkhouse: it's a mystery, and you can read (18:45):
undefined
that book without actuallyworrying about-- I mean, it does
matter that the narrator is awoman, a young girl-- that
matters, but it's not anessential part of the book in
that way.
It's a ripping good story.
Barbara Radecki (19:07):
Thanks.
Marc Cote (19:07):
I think that helps to keep people reading, but the
reality is boys don'tphysically, intellectually, or
psychologically mature, untilthey hit 16, 17.
Sam Hiyate (19:20):
Or like in my case, maybe 25.
Marc Cote (19:23):
Right.
But here's the thing.
So what we need are acombination of factors.
We need books of seriousinterest to boys.
Boys like mysteries, boys likehumor.
Let's get those books out, let'sget those books, read-- Andrew,
and other people-- and get themin the hands of the boys.
(19:44):
We need the review media to geton board with this.
And I will say now, the majorreview media, particularly in
the United States is starting tosay, we need more boy-centered
books.
They're pushing for that.
And they're going to givepriority to those books.
So that's going to switch.
That will affect librarians,teacher, librarians, and
(20:06):
teachers, and they will make theeffort.
But some of this is like-- youknow, recently, just this last
week, the Olympics, the Canadianwomen athletes did best in
Tokyo, far better than the men.
But that's the result of about20 years of the Canadian
government, putting money intotraining women athletes because
(20:29):
they had been ignored for solong.
And what we have to do is overthe course of the next 20 years,
figure out the balance.
So we're doing everybodyequally.
And that's where I think we'regoing to be, particularly in the
case of boys-- boys, andreading.
Because I think they'rereachable, but they will never
be totally accessible, simplybecause of the physical,
(20:50):
emotional, and psychologicaldelay in maturation, which is
biological, not much we can doabout it.
Sam Hiyate (20:57):
So here's a question.
So I can't remember where I readthis, but I think that J K
Rowling made Harry Potter a boybecause she wanted to embrace
the male audience.
She knew that if it was a girlcharacter, that the boys might
not read it.
But I feel then, when The HungerGames came out, the boys read
(21:18):
The Hunger Games because Iguess, cause Katniss is a
killer.
Katniss wasn't traditional--there's a gender switch.
Katniss became somebody that theboys could say, I love Katniss.
And I could, put myself in her.
So there's this thing thathappened.
I think in culture, for teenboys, with The Hunger Games,
that wasn't there before, wherethey could embrace a female
(21:41):
character.
And I talked to somebody elseabout that-- that we were going
to have this talk and they said,this was a female writer who
said that when she grew up, thatthey all had to read in, I think
m iddle g rade or maybe highschool, a book called Hatchet.
And it was about a boy who had ahatchet who had to survive.
And I'd never heard of thisstory, but they said all the
boys loved it, but the girlswere so bored with t his story.
Marc Cote (22:04):
Well, when I was in high school, I think it was
grade eight.
We all had to read The Outsidersby S.
E.
Hinton.
Right.
We all read that.
And S.E.
Hinton was Sally.
No one talked about the factthat it was a woman writer.
It was just a great story.
Barbara Radecki (22:20):
Well, just like JK Rowling had to use the
initials because they felt moreboys would read her.
And, that also rounds back towhy do we have to hide the
identity of female writers inorder to lure boys in?
That's something that, you know,I think needs to shift.
Although I, again, how does oneenforce these kinds of shifts?
Boys are going to read andshould read.
(22:42):
But they're also going to readwhat they want to read, right?
So we can't, we can't legislateit.
Marc Cote (22:48):
No, no, we can't legislate it, but we can
encourage it.
Right?
All of us, all of us havestories of some teacher at some
point in our lines, putting abook in our hands and following
up.
All of us.
And that teacher, whatever thebook was, they made a huge
difference.
Sam Hiyate (23:06):
Okay.
I think anybody have any finalthoughts?
Cause I feel like we said a lothere.
I feel a little tired justlistening to all this, but...
Diane Terrana (23:16):
Well, I just want to thank everyone for an
absolutely stupendousdiscussion.
Barbara Radecki (23:20):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
I feel like I'm going to bethinking of all kinds of things
I want to say after we partways.
Marc Cote (23:27):
I agree with Barbara.
This panel could have gone onfor another hour.
Barbara Radecki (23:31):
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (23:31):
Thanks Marc.
Thank you so much, guys.
We'll see you next time.
Diane Terrana (23:35):
Thank you so much.
Sam Hiyate (23:38):
Bye.
Bye.
Pitching 101.
Usually, to persuade an editorto read a new story, it's easier
(24:03):
if you comp it to a similarstory that was massive-- or is
it?
New agent Kathryn Willmsdiscusses comps and her first
offer.
Kathryn Willms (24:18):
Hi, I'm Kathryn Willms and I'm an associate
agent at The Rights Factory.
Today.
I'm doing an opinion piece.
Nope.
Let's pitch it as a pitiful cryinto the void.
Like if the man in EdvardMunch's, The Scream was replaced
by a whiny baby or Katniss sleptin and Primrose Everdeen went to
the hunger games.
That's right, we're talkingcomps.
(24:39):
I'm a relatively new agent.
In fact, I've just had my firstoffer on my first ever
submission, which is awesome.
And I've been thinking aboutcomps because of a discussion I
had with that author.
In her proposal, she haddescribed the book as a cross
between two other famous piecesof art.
I kept taking out thatcomparison and then she kept
putting it back in.
Her comps were good ones.
(24:59):
Yet my inclination was to losethem.
Which got me thinking (25:00):
What is it about comps that rubs me the
wrong way?
Two thoughts come to mind.
One, if you pitch a book bydescribing it as a combination
of two other things, inevitably,invariably, I will not know what
one of those things are.
Some examples (25:16):
pitched as Dexter (yes) and Pushing Daisies(nope).
Pitches (25:20):
True Grit(sure) meets Sarah Waters(who?) So now not
only do I feel stupid, I have toread an author's whole oeuvre or
watch a television series.
Second (25:34):
comps are finicky.
Every author knows not to comptheir book using Harry Potter,
but it's also poor practice touse an obscure comp.
One author used a comp, and Iwas like,"Hey, I need to read
this book." And then I did.
And it was too good.
Her sample couldn't match up.
But here's the thing-- fromauthors to publicists, to
agents, to editors, tobooksellers the publishing
(25:55):
industry loves comps.
They could be handy as shorthandfor anything from plot to mood,
to genre, to audience.
So I decided to suck it up, goon Publishers Marketplace and
learn more.
Here's what I found out.
Two super common comps (26:08):
Get Out and You've Got Mail.
Get Out, of course, usedfittingly as a comp for books on
brain transplants.
Just kidding.
Probably something to do withthe insidious nature of racism.
And You've Got Mail.
Well, I can only assumeeveryone's writing books about
catfishing each other and howcorporate America always wins.
Given the last 18 months.
(26:29):
Sure.
That makes sense.
Also, audacity is allowed, nayencouraged.
Here's some quotes from deals--pitched as part Ted Lasso, part
Wednesday Adams and full ofroadkill research.
Color me intrigued.
Or pitched (26:43):
a s The Graduate meets Catcher in the Rye by way
of S chitt's Creek with alesbian twist, with Mrs.
Robinson meeting HoldenCaulfield.
Hunh?
Or, pitched as a femaleShawshank Redemption with
vampires-- what is evenhappening?
So I was a bout ready to w riteoff comps, but here's the
(27:06):
problem.
My author, the one who got theoffer, she was right.
We pitched that book usingFiddler on the Roof and
Schindler's List.
The editor loved it and itworked.
So maybe there is something tocomps after all.
I'll let you know.
In the meantime, I'm off towatch F iddler on the Roof.
I'm Kathryn from TRF.
Thanks for listening.
Sam Hiyate (27:42):
Well, that's our show folks.
Thanks to all our guests and ourproducer, Andrew Kaufman.
Most of all, thank you forlistening.
If you like us, please share thelove and post a review on
whatever podcast channel you'relistening to us on.
And also subscribe on substack.
Next week is our last show ofseason one, featuring issues
(28:03):
around writing narrativenonfiction and the dangerous
ideas that they might engender.
Take care.
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