September 7, 2021 • 31 mins
This week we discuss Harry and Meghan's book deal and the trials and tribulations in writing narrative non-fiction. TRF's royal watchers, Brand Manager Anne Sampson and agent Kathryn Willms discuss Prince Harry and Meghan Markle, while our panel discussion features non-fiction writers Timothy Christian (author of the forthcoming Hemingway's Widow), Elaine Dewar (author of the just-released On the Origin of Deadliest Pandemic in 100 Years: An Investigation), and Jonathan Tepper (author of The Myth of Capitalism with Denise Hearn), discussing the art of narrative non-fiction.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to Episode Six of Agent
Provocateur, the final episodeof Season One.
Thanks so much for staying withus.
For those of you who have, I'mSam Hiyate, founder and CEO of
The Rights Factory.
Today, Kathryn Willms and AnneSamson go over Harry and
(00:22):
Meghan's book deal from earlierin the summer, from an agency
point of view, of course,
Kathryn Willms (00:27):
Is this a blatant move by Harry to
disrespect the queen on the Eveof her golden jubilee?
Sam Hiyate (00:34):
And we have a panel of diverse narrative non-fiction
writers talking about how theysold, researched, and publish
their books.
Harry and Meghan took a page outof the Obamas with both couples
(00:58):
getting eight figure deals in acombo of Netflix and Penguin
Random House.
What does it really mean?
Our own Kathryn Willms and AnneSampson take it all apart for
you.
Kathryn Willms (01:10):
Hello, I'm Kathryn and I'm an associate
agent at The Rights Factory.
I'm super excited today to behere, to talk about prince
Harry's book deal.
Now I wouldn't call myself Royalobsessed, but I do love
celebrity gossip.
And let me tell you lovingcelebrity gossip at the moment
is a tough beat.
You have to be up on yourbachelorettes, castoffs, your
country, music stars, or HGTVpeople, and just random people
(01:34):
having babies.
So it's been a relief to getback to the OGs of gossip,
dysfunction, snide remarks,leaked stories, and outrageous
outfits, the royal family.
So here in Canada, we had frontrow seats for awhile.
Harry and Meghan met here.
They holed up in Vancouverisland after their unconscious
or sorry, conscious uncouplingwith the royal family, but we
(01:55):
may have gotten a little excitedand scared them off.
So now we're back in thehinterlands and I'm really
thrilled to be talking tosomeone on the ground in the
know-- a real live person wholives in England.
Anne Sampson (02:08):
Hi, I guess I'm the person that lives in
England.
I'm Anne Sampson, I'm brandmanager at The Rights Factory.
I'm also a freelance socialmedia manager and a former book
publicist.
And yeah, and I've beenbasically a royal watcher since
prince William was on the coverof YA Magazine and I think I had
(02:29):
that up on my wall in mybedroom.
And I'm definitely one of thosepeople that read Finding
Freedom, the book that came outlast year, the biography that
was written about the two ofthem that may or may not have
had their tacit approval.
And yeah, I've gotten up towatch every Royal wedding and
(02:49):
watch the Oprah interview withbated breath and listen to
Prince Harry's interview on theDax Shepard podcast earlier this
year.
So, I'm definitely a fan slashwatcher of The Royal Family.
Yeah.
(03:09):
So Kathryn, maybe you couldstart by giving us an overview.
Like what do we know about thebook so far?
Or what's leaked in the past fewweeks, but what's happening with
it?
Kathryn Willms (03:20):
So on July 19th, Penguin Random House announced
they would be publishing PrinceHarry, the Duke of Sussex's
memoir and the press releasegave us a few more details.
So we have a tentative releasedate of late 2022.
It's going to be published inthe States, Canada and the UK by
Random House and variousimprints.
And we'll have an audio book atthe same time.
(03:42):
So details of the contractitself were not provided.
Although the press release saidthat Prince Harry would be
donating proceeds to charity.
We're also given a briefoverview.
So this is going to be adefinitive account of the
experiences, adventures, losses,and life lessons that helped
shape Prince Harry, as we knowhim.
And it will also cover hismilitary service, his service to
(04:03):
the Crown and becoming a husbandand a dad.
And there were some adjectives: "intimate and heartfelt," (04:06):
undefined
"inspiring and uplifting,""honest and truthful."
Anne Sampson (04:13):
All of those great brand-- it's like branding,
right?,
Kathryn Willms (04:18):
You know them well, Anne.
So since then, some otherdetails have emerged.
Page six revealed that the dealwas for$20 million and it's for
four books by Harry and Meghan.
So we have Harry's memoir, awellness book by Meghan, a
philanthropy and leadership bookby both of them.
And then, I believe we're stillunsure about the fourth book.
(04:38):
So The Daily Mail speculatedthat it was the second half of
Harry's memoir, and it was onlygoing to be published after the
Queen's death, but Harry'slawyers quickly denied that.
So more plausibly, it seems likeit will be Meghan's memoir.
Her children's book, the bench--Penguin Random House also
published that-- is not part ofthis deal.
So some other questions stillcirculating at the time of this
recording (04:59):
What does donating proceeds mean?
How much cash is Harry takinghome from this deal?
Meghan and Harry have alreadysigned multimillion dollar deals
with Spotify and Netflix.
But the thing about these dealsis often there's not a lot of
upfront money, especially on thedevelopment end.
So book publishing is still oneof the rare places where you can
get big money in advances andMeghan and Harry have said they
(05:21):
want to be financiallyindependent.
So maybe this is part of that.
Other questions (05:25):
What's this news in fact, leaked?
Page Six apparently got it froma source that wasn't connected
to the Sussex's-- oh, that'sgoing to be a tough word.
And of course, certain Britishtabloids want to know: is this a
blatant move by Harry todisrespect The Queen on the eve
of her golden Jubilee?
Jeez, Harry-- and this seemslike a good segue.
(05:47):
What's your first impressionswhen you heard the news?
What's the reaction been like inthe UK?
Anne Sampson (05:52):
Yeah, I was in the shop yesterday and I feel like
the tabloid headlines about themare what you would expect.
One tabloid said"Harry'sbetrayal will haunt Meghan
forever." And it was next toanother magazine that said"Happy
Birthday, Prince George!" And"Charles and Camilla Continue
Colorful Tour of Cornwall." So Ithink the kind of British
(06:16):
reaction has been exactly whatyou would expect it to be, like
a lot of snarky media responses.
You know,"A book about Harry aswritten by Meghan"-- type of
thing.
Of course, Piers Morgan was likespouting off in his column for
the Mail Online.
He called for The Queen to stripHarry and Meghan of their
(06:38):
titles.
He was calling the book,"Abetrayal too far," accusing them
of turning her Majesty's worldfamous motto of,"Never complain,
never explain," into"Alwayscomplain, always explain-- never
stop whining." So yeah, I thinkexactly like....
Kathryn Willms (06:56):
Are we still listening to Piers Morgan?
Didn't we just cancel him?
Anne Sampson (07:01):
I mean he has people that listen to him, so,
yeah.
And then I guess what I'm hopingor thinking that this memoir is
going to cover.
He was on the Dax Shepardpodcast earlier this year and
for anyone that listened to it,it was really interesting.
It focused a lot on mentalhealth, and his time in the
(07:24):
military, the PTSD after servingin Afghanistan, PTSD after his
mother's death.
And it was kind of a reallyinteresting, intimate, interview
compared to the Oprah interview.
So I think we'll see a lot ofthose kinds of themes from that
interview playing out in thisbook here.
(07:47):
and yeah, I think for the otherbooks, with Meghan writing a
wellness book for anyone thatread her blog, The Tig, back in
the day, pre-princess, she wrotea lot about wellness and health
and lifestyle.
So I think that kind of fitsinto that niche or something
that she's comfortable talkingand writing about.
(08:09):
And Vanity Fair had reportedthat the book was going to, or
one of the books was going to beabout leadership and
philanthropy, like you'dmentioned.
In which case, I think it's kindof interesting that they went
with Random House because RandomHouse did the Michelle Obama
book.
And so I wouldn't be surprisedif we saw them doing kind of
like a stadium tour, similar toMichelle Obama.
(08:31):
If that book comes out and theyare promoting it?
What do you think-- you thinkanything Random House is going
to insist has to be in the book?
Or, how does that--
Kathryn Willms (08:43):
I feel like I can answer that in the negative
-- in that I don't think they'regoing to insist on an expose of
all the family's dirt.
I think we'll just all have tokeep watching The Crown for
speculations on that.
But I do think we'll get theHarry and Megan romance story,
he'll address his decision toleave.
And I do think we might get someinsight into what it's like
growing up in the Royal Family.
So obviously I want some detailsabout the partying-- get me them
(09:05):
Vegas details already, but we'llsee what happens there.
I'm sure Megan is notghostwriting the book.
There's a ghostwriter and Ithink that, who it is gives us a
little bit of insight too-- sothe ghostwriter is J.R.
Moehringer, who got a milliondollar advance, and apparently
(09:25):
he was introduced to the projectthrough a connection with George
Clooney.
So, writers everywhere-- time tomeet George Clooney.
But this guy's a huge name.
He's ghostwritten books forAndre Agassi and Nike co-founder
Phil Knight.
And what I think is reallyinteresting about him is that he
loves to write about difficultrelationships between fathers
and sons.
(09:45):
And he talked about it in hisown best-selling memoir.
His father was a DJ and he onlyheard his voice through the
radio.
And he talked about it was sofrustrating as a little kid,
that he'd never had arelationship with them, but he'd
sit on the stoop and he wouldturn the dial and try and
connect with his father.
And it just k ind o f struck methat that was a bit interesting.
And also when he talked abouthis process when he wrote Andre
(10:06):
Agassi's book, who also hadissues with his father and he
described the process,essentially therapy sessions,
where they dug deep aboutpainful incidents and they found
patterns and themes.
So those anecdotes kind of makeme think that we might get more
insight into Harry and Charles'relationship, and that it may be
a little more raw than we mightotherwise expect.
(10:26):
And sometimes, it just makes methink, sometimes we think of
celebrities using a ghostwriteras kind of a cheat, as a way of
not putting themselves out thereand not being honest, but I
think the opposite can be trueas well.
And if you're not a writerworking with someone who is, can
I think, bring deeper truths tolight and even let you be more
honest, because some one who is,who's an expert at it can really
capture those experiencesauthentically.
(10:48):
So I'm kind of interested inthat.
What do you think?
And is Harry writing this bookas a kind of therapy session?
Or do you think there's somemore tangible goals?
Anne Sampson (10:57):
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned
therapy because that wasdefinitely something that he
talked about in the Dax Shepardpodcast and how Meghan is the
one who got him into therapy andhow he really recommends therapy
now to everyone.
So I think there will definitelybe some of that in the book.
I mean, right in the Oprahinterview, they said they were
cut off by the Royal Family,after they left.
(11:19):
And so obviously, money issomething that they need, they
want to become financiallyself-sufficient.
But they do have a Netflix dealand they have a Spotify deal.
So they don't really need a bookdeal, in order to survive at
this point.
But they've said the proceedsare going to charity.
There's been some question aboutthat because it didn't say all
(11:40):
proceeds are going to charity.
It just said,"Proceeds are goingto charity." So is that the
advance?
Is that part of the advance?
Is that, you know, just thesales after the advance?
Like we don't really know whatthat means yet.
But I think, definitely betweenSpotify and Netflix, now this
publishing deal, they're reallybuilding a media empire for
(12:01):
themselves.
And I'm so interested to know.
I feel like there must be aKevin Feige of the Harry and
Meghan cinematic universe, whois like, okay, this is our
five-year plan.
So this Netflix thing is goingto come out in January, and then
this podcast is going to comeout in February and they must
have some sort of five-year planfor how all of this media is
(12:23):
going to roll out.
And it's kind of interesting.
I think, Meghan had said in theOprah interview that she was
everywhere and nowhere at thesame time, and I think that's
going to continue on with them.
They're always going to beeverywhere and nowhere at the
same time.
So they're like, if that's goingto happen, then we might as well
control the narrative forourselves.
(12:44):
And so I think that's a big partof this book and the interviews
that they've been doing.
Because they're like, if peopleare going to talk about us, then
we're just going to tell itourselves, and make some money
while we do it.
Kathryn Willms (12:57):
For sure.
Anne Sampson (12:57):
But with all that happening, Kathryn, do you think
that that means that the marketis just going to be
oversaturated with them?
Kathryn Willms (13:08):
I don't think it is yet for sure.
You know, I do think, I wasthinking obviously, publishers
are well aware and I'm sure theywant to replicate the resounding
successes of the Obama's books,right?
That deal's worth$65 million.
If it hasn't earned out, it'sgotta be close.
Michelle sold 14 million copiesof Becoming.
And so, are Harry and Meghan,the new Barack and Michelle
(13:32):
Obama of publishing?
Like, not so sure they're quitethe same heft as writers or
thinkers, but I do think they'recertainly capitalizing at the
right time and trying to make agood go of it.
And I do think there'lldefinitely be interest in this.
You know, I was thinking of thebest and worst case scenarios
for this book.
So best case scenario (13:48):
it's a best seller, super well-written.
And it provides the sort ofdetails and insights that make
truly great memoirs powerful.
The worst case scenario, it's abest seller and it makes so much
money that hopefully RandomHouse can splurge and launch the
careers of amazing diversewriters with numbers are much
more powerful than this one.
(14:10):
So in a way I think thepublishing industry that it, I
think we might see more booksfrom Meghan and Harry and I
think there'll be interest forsome time to come.
Anne Sampson (14:20):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
Are you going to read it?
Kathryn Willms (14:23):
Okay.
So I will be the 1223rd personwith it on hold at the Toronto
Public Library,
Anne Sampson (14:33):
I think, yeah.
I'm going to read it-- unlessit's Harry doing the audio book
-- then I might have to actuallylisten to him, do it, because I
think it'll be interesting tohear his voice telling the story
and just where he puts theemphasis on words and how he
describes it.
Even if it's not necessarily hisown words, because i t's a ghost
writer, but at least in his ownvoice.
(14:55):
S o.
Kathryn Willms (14:57):
Maybe you'll be able to tell which part Meghan
Markle wrote for him.
Sam Hiyate (15:10):
Fiction might get the glory and possibly a place
in the canon, but nonfiction canget into some urgent and
dangerous ideas.
To look at the process ofpitching and publishing
narrative nonfiction, we'veconvened a special panel.
Hello everyone.
(15:31):
Today we are talking aboutnarrative nonfiction and we have
some great writers, allnonfiction writers, on our
panel, starting with JonathanTepper, whose book, The Myth of
Capitalism is now more vitalthan ever.
It came out a few years ago, butit's still selling like
hotcakes.
Hi Jonathan.
Jonathan Tepper (15:52):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (15:54):
Good to see you.
We have, Elaine Dewar, whosebook is coming out any day now.
It's got a long title, so I haveit in front of me.
It's On the Origin of theDeadliest Pandemic in 100 Years:
An Investigation.
Good to see you, Elaine.
Elaine Dewar (16:12):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (16:13):
And, we have, last but not least Tim Christian,
whose book is coming out nextyear, but it's available for
order any time and it's calledHemingway's Widow.
Now, Tim, I can't remember ifwe're changing the subtitle.
I'm going to go with that, but,good to see you.
Timothy Christian (16:30):
Thank you, Sam.
Great to see you as well.
Sam Hiyate (16:33):
I guess the thing about having such a range of
non-fiction writers here is I'mgoing to start a bit about how
did the deal come about?
I think for each of you it's alittle different, but I'd be
curious.
Did you sell the book on aconcept, a proposal, a finished
manuscript?
And what was that like?
Would you do it differently?
And here I will start withJonathan-- why don't we start
(16:57):
with you?
This is The Myth of Capitalism.
Yeah.
Jonathan Tepper (17:00):
Yes.
So the book in terms of selling,it was really, essentially
selling an almost finishedproduct at that stage.
I think we were half done by thetime the book contract got done
and part of it was, you know,one that I'd been working on it
for quite a bit of time myself.
Then also, you know, the hardpart for me is the research and
(17:25):
putting things together-- theeasier part is writing once I
know what I want to say.
And so I was just writing awaywhile you were pitching it to
the publishers.
And so by the time I finishedthe book.
It was only a couple monthsafter we'd actually even signed
the contract.
Sam Hiyate (17:45):
So that's the kind of standard way-- is you have
the proposal, you write somesample chapters, you pitch it
and-- Tim, your situation was alittle different in that you had
to write or collect the materialand write much of it first.
Timothy Christian (18:01):
Yes, I did.
So, the first time we tried onthe basis of a book proposal
with sample chapters and wedidn't get takers.
Sam, you remember that painfulprocess quite well.
Sam Hiyate (18:14):
I think you took it quite well.
I was worried I was going tocall and not get an answer.
Timothy Christian (18:18):
But, so then I think that there were a couple
of problems that the projectwasn't, perhaps as well-defined,
as it ought to have been.
I'm not a Hemingway scholar.
So there's a question about mycredibility to write such a
book.
And I don't think the zeitgeistwas quite right for it.
I continued to work for anothertwo years.
And then we did sell it as afull book.
(18:41):
And Sam cleverly decided, weshould surf on the popularity,
the renewed popularity ofHemingway after the PBS series,
that Ken Burns had created,created with, with Novick.
Sam Hiyate (18:57):
I have to say, just as an agent, I did panic as you
and I had talked about,"Oh,we're going to get to Hemingway
when it's done." And all of asudden Ken Burns was there at
PBS Hemingway.
And then I thought, this is ourwindow.
We better get, we better getthat manuscript out.
It was a little bit panicked inthe office that day.
And so Elaine, let's talk a bitabout this massive book.
(19:22):
Like I remember at one point itwas supposed to be 150 pages.
I'm looking at it now, and it'slike closer to 450 pages.
Elaine Dewar (19:29):
Right.
With microscopic size endnotes.
You know, this book was totallyanomalous.
It's part of a series that DanWells at Bilblioasis decided to
start in his madness.
And he called me up in, I think,March of 2020 and said, I'm
(19:51):
doing this series.
I want you to do a book and Iwant you to do it on, I think it
was pandemic profiteers.
The last book I did for him wasa business book, and I was
really not interested in doinganother business book.
And besides I was alreadyobsessed with SARS COV-2 and its
origin and started clipping andwas reading.
So I said,"Nope, won't do that.
(20:12):
Want to do this?
What do you think?" And he said,"I don't know.
I've never done science.
I don't know." I said,"Well,okay.
But here's why it's important."So that was it.
That was the whole thing.
So we had a deal on the phone.
Sam Hiyate (20:28):
That's the dream that you have a pitch..
.
Elaine Dewar (20:31):
It never happened to me before.
Sam Hiyate (20:32):
"We got to check on the way."
Elaine Dewar (20:35):
Well, here's my 10 Minute pitch.
Okay.
I mean, not written, I didn'twrite one word, which turned out
to be a problem.
Because when you do a pitch, youform at least a basic idea of
what it is you're going to doand how are you going to do it.
And after I said, sure, let'sgo.
I then had a panic attackbecause figuring out how to do a
non-fiction book in the middleof a pandemic was really a
(20:57):
daunting prospect.
So it was fun, but I don'tadvise.
Sam Hiyate (21:03):
So you guys all did different, completely different
kinds of research.
So Jonathan, your old companywas doing financial research.
So is that what led you to TheMyth of Capitalism, when you
realized certain patterns werehappening?
Jonathan Tepper (21:16):
Yeah.
So the the book essentially cameout of trying to answer a
question for myself.
I didn't really even know that Iwas going to write a book.
I was very interested in solvingor answering a question or a
puzzle that had presenteditself, which is why were
corporate profits so high.
And historically they've meanreverted quite a lot, and that
has enormous investmentimplications.
(21:37):
And if they don't mean revert,then clearly something's changed
in the world.
And that also has tremendousimplications.
And so I didn't know the answerwhen I started investigating.
Really the idea of monopoliesbeing the main reason why, a nd
certainly not the only reason.
Nothing in the world ismonocausal like that, but it's
certainly a very important one.
It came from the research itselfand then, u m, I had done an
(22:02):
enormous amount of research.
I talked to you about it.
And I essentially had, I thinkabout a hundred page outline
together by the time I startedwriting.
And it was very, very clear tome how the book was going to be
laid out.
And so, I knew that I wanted towrite this book no matter what.
And then it was just really aquestion of where, what
publisher would like it andwhere would the audience be.
(22:22):
But, you know, I was reallywriting it sort of essentially
for myself and my clients.
And then I thought that peoplewould find it interesting to
read too.
Sam Hiyate (22:31):
I was a little terrified when we had the first,
an early conversation about it.
When you said that the idealkind of state of business for
like the Nazis was to have, forthat kind of socialist structure
was to have two or threecompanies, not more and I'm I'm
thinking, well, this seems likean awful lot like America right
(22:51):
now.
Jonathan Tepper (22:52):
Well, it is true.
I think that if you look at theNazis, they definitely had the
cartels.
They, you know, the U S, wascalling these kinds of companies
trusts at the time-- in Europeand Germany, they were called
cartels.
Now you see this in China wherethey're very large monopolies
effectively.
And I think the reason whygovernments that aren't
democratic tend to like these isthat, it's much easier to boss,
(23:15):
one or two people around, youknow, who run a very large
company than it is, you know,the sort of thousands of
shopkeepers or smallercompanies.
And so, democracy itself, Ithink is deeply intertwined with
competition.
And I think that's why Napoleonsaid that the UK was essentially
a nation of shopkeepers and hesaid it very pejoratively, but I
(23:35):
think that was actually awonderful compliment to the UK
at the time.
Sam Hiyate (23:39):
Tim, in your case research-- I feel like you
probably had the most fun doingresearch-- It was like, well,
Hemingway's in Cuba.
I have to go to Cuba.
He was in Paris.
I need to go to Paris.
I feel like it was like this--maybe I'm wrong-- but I feel
like you had this beautifulseries of trips around the world
that where you got to eat welland live well, but you also dug
(24:02):
into the research.
Timothy Christian (24:04):
Well, yeah, it was a work of love.
I felt I had to go to the placesthat Hemingway and Mary visited
or lived in, in order to be ableto write authentically about
them.
There were a lot of funny thingsthat happened.
One of the most funny, perhaps,was a trip to London to
(24:26):
investigate places that Maryfrequented during the second
World War.
And she actually met Hemingwayfor the first time in a Greek
Cypriot restaurant called TheWhite Tower.
So I decided I would retrace thefootsteps from her office to The
White Tower, which is just offOxford Street.
(24:46):
I arrived at The White Tower andit's now called the house of
hope, but it looks the same, butit's now a Chinese restaurant.
But I mean, if I hadn't gonethere, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
have that feeling for the place.
And that's how I justified thevarious trips that I've taken.
And I really do feel that giventhe sort of book I've written, I
(25:09):
had to have that familiarity andthe f eel for place.
Sam Hiyate (25:13):
Did you have to dig through a lot of archives, like
paper-only archives.
Cause I have the feeling that'swhat you were doing the rest of
the time
Timothy Christian (25:20):
Yeah.
The rest of the time, that'swhat I was doing.
Hemingway's papers are held atthe JFK library in Boston.
Mary's papers are there as well.
I visited that library.
I spent weeks there.
But they also provided me withreally thousands of pages of
correspondence and journals anddiaries and digital files.
(25:44):
So I spent-- during COVID I wasable to be quite productive
because I had, or I have one ofthe largest libraries of
Hemingway material outside ofBoston, according to one of
their archivists.
So, that was very useful.
I also went to the New Yorkpublic library, spent some time
(26:05):
there.
And, in each of these trips, Idon't know how you found your
archival work, but the mostamazing thing about it is the
thrill of discovering thingsthat no one knows about, no one
has seen and which really canturn the story, quite
dramatically.
And I had a few, a few examplesof that excitement.
Sam Hiyate (26:29):
I'm going to leave some of that for people that
read, that, buy the book andfind out.
But I think that brings us toElaine.
So Elaine, you took this projecton when the pandemic-- we were
already in a lockdown situation-- were you kind of crazy?
Were you kind of thinking--
Elaine Dewar (26:45):
Yeah, I was kind of crazy.
Sam Hiyate (26:45):
...
I'm going to get on a plane andfigure this out.
I'm just like, as if thispandemic wasn't happening or did
you know what you were gettinginto?
Elaine Dewar (26:51):
No, I did not.
And yes I did.
So for example, I'm identifyingwith Tim because that is how I
would normally do a book.
I would go, I would interview, Iwould travel.
I would see.
And I would immerse myself inother people's circumstances, as
well as in libraries andarchives.
For this one, it became veryclear, very quickly that I could
(27:14):
not get a single seniorscientist to respond.
Even by email.
They were out of their labs orthey were ducking their heads.
And at that point I had apanicked phone call with Dan and
said,"I don't know how I'm goingto do this." And he said,"Okay,
how are you going to do this?"So I said.
"Aha! I have an answer." Thevirtue of science is that it's
published.
(27:35):
So if you can't get to a personwho doesn't want to talk to you
about his work, you just go andpick up what he's published.
And in doing that, I gave myselfpillars to stand upon and then
sort of went forward from thatpoint.
So I read a humongous amount ofacademic publishing, which I
(27:59):
don't recommend.
But it was very helpful.
And, the biggest problem wascreating that narrative arc to
tell that story, the discoverystory that happens not in the
usual way, by opening a door andfinding a human being to tell
you that story.
But by crafting that story withmy own voice.
It was hard.
Sam Hiyate (28:21):
Publishers are always saying they want both
credibility and a platform.
How would you guys respond tothat?
Cause the platform thing isoften a chicken or egg kind of
thing.
Do you guys have any thoughts onthat?
On credibility versus platform,or both, in your writing?
Let's go back to Tim for a sec.
Timothy Christian (28:39):
In terms of platform.
I don't really have a platform.
I mean, I have a website and soon, but, we're going to have to
figure out how we do this-- howwe go forward and publicize this
thing.
Sam Hiyate (28:50):
Yeah.
So Elaine about platform.
How do you feel about that?
Elaine Dewar (28:53):
You know, I think it's a waste of time.
I do.
Sam Hiyate (29:00):
A lot of Publishers would not even understand that
because all--
Elaine Dewar (29:03):
I know.
Sam Hiyate (29:03):
-- they ask me is like, what's the author's
platform.
Like, this is great that theyhave this idea, but who are
they?
Why should we care?
Elaine Dewar (29:08):
Yeah.
My job is to get out there andunderstand what's going on in
reality.
And I think the more time youspend on Twitter and Facebook
and whatever, the less time youspend thinking, and the more
time you spend immersed in alike-minded group, which is not
necessarily a good thing.
Certainly it's not a good thingfor the kind of work I do.
(29:30):
And it's also a function of ageof me.
I'm sure I was never a rapidadapter as you can see from
this, but it's distracting andI'm a single-minded kind of gal.
I'm out there working my gutsout to find out what I'm trying
to find out and to write it inthe best possible way I can.
(29:52):
And I figured it's up to thepublisher to get it in front of
people.
It's not my job.
My job is to find the story andtell it.
Jonathan Tepper (30:00):
I think that's the paradox of the platform.
A lot of the greatest writers,or most of them, are not on
Twitter, don't tweet.
And if you look at the investingworld, the reason why I'm no
longer, tweeting or spending anytime on it is that the people I
admire the most as investors arenot really on Twitter.
They're investing.
And so, if you want to do greatwork, spending your day,
(30:24):
engaging with your platforms isnot the way to go.
So it's-- you know-- in a way,having a platform helps, people
who don't know that you'vewritten a book become aware of
it, but it will prevent you fromwriting the next book, or
running a fund-- whatever it isthat you're doing-- you're not
going to be doing it if you'reon Twitter all day.
Sam Hiyate (30:41):
Okay guys.
Well, I hope for anybody outthere listening and working on a
nonfiction book, that they'vegot some interesting ideas here
from Elaine.
Thank you so much, Jonathan.
Thank you.
And Tim, thank you so much.
Timothy Christian (30:52):
Thank you.
Jonathan Tepper (30:53):
Thank you.
Elaine Dewar (30:54):
My pleasure.
Sam Hiyate (31:01):
Oh my god.
So season one is over.
Thanks to all of our guests, ourproducer, Andrew Kaufman.
And thank YOU once again forlistening in.
We will be back in October withseason two and hopefully special
coverage from the Frankfurt BookFair-- depending on the
(31:21):
pandemic, of course,-- whereCanada is the guest of honor.
Hello, and welcome to Episode Six of Agent
Provocateur, the final episodeof Season One.
Thanks so much for staying withus.
For those of you who have, I'mSam Hiyate, founder and CEO of
The Rights Factory.
Today, Kathryn Willms and AnneSamson go over Harry and
(00:22):
Meghan's book deal from earlierin the summer, from an agency
point of view, of course,
Kathryn Willms (00:27):
Is this a blatant move by Harry to
disrespect the queen on the Eveof her golden jubilee?
Sam Hiyate (00:34):
And we have a panel of diverse narrative non-fiction
writers talking about how theysold, researched, and publish
their books.
Harry and Meghan took a page outof the Obamas with both couples
(00:58):
getting eight figure deals in acombo of Netflix and Penguin
Random House.
What does it really mean?
Our own Kathryn Willms and AnneSampson take it all apart for
you.
Kathryn Willms (01:10):
Hello, I'm Kathryn and I'm an associate
agent at The Rights Factory.
I'm super excited today to behere, to talk about prince
Harry's book deal.
Now I wouldn't call myself Royalobsessed, but I do love
celebrity gossip.
And let me tell you lovingcelebrity gossip at the moment
is a tough beat.
You have to be up on yourbachelorettes, castoffs, your
country, music stars, or HGTVpeople, and just random people
(01:34):
having babies.
So it's been a relief to getback to the OGs of gossip,
dysfunction, snide remarks,leaked stories, and outrageous
outfits, the royal family.
So here in Canada, we had frontrow seats for awhile.
Harry and Meghan met here.
They holed up in Vancouverisland after their unconscious
or sorry, conscious uncouplingwith the royal family, but we
(01:55):
may have gotten a little excitedand scared them off.
So now we're back in thehinterlands and I'm really
thrilled to be talking tosomeone on the ground in the
know-- a real live person wholives in England.
Anne Sampson (02:08):
Hi, I guess I'm the person that lives in
England.
I'm Anne Sampson, I'm brandmanager at The Rights Factory.
I'm also a freelance socialmedia manager and a former book
publicist.
And yeah, and I've beenbasically a royal watcher since
prince William was on the coverof YA Magazine and I think I had
(02:29):
that up on my wall in mybedroom.
And I'm definitely one of thosepeople that read Finding
Freedom, the book that came outlast year, the biography that
was written about the two ofthem that may or may not have
had their tacit approval.
And yeah, I've gotten up towatch every Royal wedding and
(02:49):
watch the Oprah interview withbated breath and listen to
Prince Harry's interview on theDax Shepard podcast earlier this
year.
So, I'm definitely a fan slashwatcher of The Royal Family.
Yeah.
(03:09):
So Kathryn, maybe you couldstart by giving us an overview.
Like what do we know about thebook so far?
Or what's leaked in the past fewweeks, but what's happening with
it?
Kathryn Willms (03:20):
So on July 19th, Penguin Random House announced
they would be publishing PrinceHarry, the Duke of Sussex's
memoir and the press releasegave us a few more details.
So we have a tentative releasedate of late 2022.
It's going to be published inthe States, Canada and the UK by
Random House and variousimprints.
And we'll have an audio book atthe same time.
(03:42):
So details of the contractitself were not provided.
Although the press release saidthat Prince Harry would be
donating proceeds to charity.
We're also given a briefoverview.
So this is going to be adefinitive account of the
experiences, adventures, losses,and life lessons that helped
shape Prince Harry, as we knowhim.
And it will also cover hismilitary service, his service to
(04:03):
the Crown and becoming a husbandand a dad.
And there were some adjectives: "intimate and heartfelt," (04:06):
undefined
"inspiring and uplifting,""honest and truthful."
Anne Sampson (04:13):
All of those great brand-- it's like branding,
right?,
Kathryn Willms (04:18):
You know them well, Anne.
So since then, some otherdetails have emerged.
Page six revealed that the dealwas for$20 million and it's for
four books by Harry and Meghan.
So we have Harry's memoir, awellness book by Meghan, a
philanthropy and leadership bookby both of them.
And then, I believe we're stillunsure about the fourth book.
(04:38):
So The Daily Mail speculatedthat it was the second half of
Harry's memoir, and it was onlygoing to be published after the
Queen's death, but Harry'slawyers quickly denied that.
So more plausibly, it seems likeit will be Meghan's memoir.
Her children's book, the bench--Penguin Random House also
published that-- is not part ofthis deal.
So some other questions stillcirculating at the time of this
recording (04:59):
What does donating proceeds mean?
How much cash is Harry takinghome from this deal?
Meghan and Harry have alreadysigned multimillion dollar deals
with Spotify and Netflix.
But the thing about these dealsis often there's not a lot of
upfront money, especially on thedevelopment end.
So book publishing is still oneof the rare places where you can
get big money in advances andMeghan and Harry have said they
(05:21):
want to be financiallyindependent.
So maybe this is part of that.
Other questions (05:25):
What's this news in fact, leaked?
Page Six apparently got it froma source that wasn't connected
to the Sussex's-- oh, that'sgoing to be a tough word.
And of course, certain Britishtabloids want to know: is this a
blatant move by Harry todisrespect The Queen on the eve
of her golden Jubilee?
Jeez, Harry-- and this seemslike a good segue.
(05:47):
What's your first impressionswhen you heard the news?
What's the reaction been like inthe UK?
Anne Sampson (05:52):
Yeah, I was in the shop yesterday and I feel like
the tabloid headlines about themare what you would expect.
One tabloid said"Harry'sbetrayal will haunt Meghan
forever." And it was next toanother magazine that said"Happy
Birthday, Prince George!" And"Charles and Camilla Continue
Colorful Tour of Cornwall." So Ithink the kind of British
(06:16):
reaction has been exactly whatyou would expect it to be, like
a lot of snarky media responses.
You know,"A book about Harry aswritten by Meghan"-- type of
thing.
Of course, Piers Morgan was likespouting off in his column for
the Mail Online.
He called for The Queen to stripHarry and Meghan of their
(06:38):
titles.
He was calling the book,"Abetrayal too far," accusing them
of turning her Majesty's worldfamous motto of,"Never complain,
never explain," into"Alwayscomplain, always explain-- never
stop whining." So yeah, I thinkexactly like....
Kathryn Willms (06:56):
Are we still listening to Piers Morgan?
Didn't we just cancel him?
Anne Sampson (07:01):
I mean he has people that listen to him, so,
yeah.
And then I guess what I'm hopingor thinking that this memoir is
going to cover.
He was on the Dax Shepardpodcast earlier this year and
for anyone that listened to it,it was really interesting.
It focused a lot on mentalhealth, and his time in the
(07:24):
military, the PTSD after servingin Afghanistan, PTSD after his
mother's death.
And it was kind of a reallyinteresting, intimate, interview
compared to the Oprah interview.
So I think we'll see a lot ofthose kinds of themes from that
interview playing out in thisbook here.
(07:47):
and yeah, I think for the otherbooks, with Meghan writing a
wellness book for anyone thatread her blog, The Tig, back in
the day, pre-princess, she wrotea lot about wellness and health
and lifestyle.
So I think that kind of fitsinto that niche or something
that she's comfortable talkingand writing about.
(08:09):
And Vanity Fair had reportedthat the book was going to, or
one of the books was going to beabout leadership and
philanthropy, like you'dmentioned.
In which case, I think it's kindof interesting that they went
with Random House because RandomHouse did the Michelle Obama
book.
And so I wouldn't be surprisedif we saw them doing kind of
like a stadium tour, similar toMichelle Obama.
(08:31):
If that book comes out and theyare promoting it?
What do you think-- you thinkanything Random House is going
to insist has to be in the book?
Or, how does that--
Kathryn Willms (08:43):
I feel like I can answer that in the negative
-- in that I don't think they'regoing to insist on an expose of
all the family's dirt.
I think we'll just all have tokeep watching The Crown for
speculations on that.
But I do think we'll get theHarry and Megan romance story,
he'll address his decision toleave.
And I do think we might get someinsight into what it's like
growing up in the Royal Family.
So obviously I want some detailsabout the partying-- get me them
(09:05):
Vegas details already, but we'llsee what happens there.
I'm sure Megan is notghostwriting the book.
There's a ghostwriter and Ithink that, who it is gives us a
little bit of insight too-- sothe ghostwriter is J.R.
Moehringer, who got a milliondollar advance, and apparently
(09:25):
he was introduced to the projectthrough a connection with George
Clooney.
So, writers everywhere-- time tomeet George Clooney.
But this guy's a huge name.
He's ghostwritten books forAndre Agassi and Nike co-founder
Phil Knight.
And what I think is reallyinteresting about him is that he
loves to write about difficultrelationships between fathers
and sons.
(09:45):
And he talked about it in hisown best-selling memoir.
His father was a DJ and he onlyheard his voice through the
radio.
And he talked about it was sofrustrating as a little kid,
that he'd never had arelationship with them, but he'd
sit on the stoop and he wouldturn the dial and try and
connect with his father.
And it just k ind o f struck methat that was a bit interesting.
And also when he talked abouthis process when he wrote Andre
(10:06):
Agassi's book, who also hadissues with his father and he
described the process,essentially therapy sessions,
where they dug deep aboutpainful incidents and they found
patterns and themes.
So those anecdotes kind of makeme think that we might get more
insight into Harry and Charles'relationship, and that it may be
a little more raw than we mightotherwise expect.
(10:26):
And sometimes, it just makes methink, sometimes we think of
celebrities using a ghostwriteras kind of a cheat, as a way of
not putting themselves out thereand not being honest, but I
think the opposite can be trueas well.
And if you're not a writerworking with someone who is, can
I think, bring deeper truths tolight and even let you be more
honest, because some one who is,who's an expert at it can really
capture those experiencesauthentically.
(10:48):
So I'm kind of interested inthat.
What do you think?
And is Harry writing this bookas a kind of therapy session?
Or do you think there's somemore tangible goals?
Anne Sampson (10:57):
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned
therapy because that wasdefinitely something that he
talked about in the Dax Shepardpodcast and how Meghan is the
one who got him into therapy andhow he really recommends therapy
now to everyone.
So I think there will definitelybe some of that in the book.
I mean, right in the Oprahinterview, they said they were
cut off by the Royal Family,after they left.
(11:19):
And so obviously, money issomething that they need, they
want to become financiallyself-sufficient.
But they do have a Netflix dealand they have a Spotify deal.
So they don't really need a bookdeal, in order to survive at
this point.
But they've said the proceedsare going to charity.
There's been some question aboutthat because it didn't say all
(11:40):
proceeds are going to charity.
It just said,"Proceeds are goingto charity." So is that the
advance?
Is that part of the advance?
Is that, you know, just thesales after the advance?
Like we don't really know whatthat means yet.
But I think, definitely betweenSpotify and Netflix, now this
publishing deal, they're reallybuilding a media empire for
(12:01):
themselves.
And I'm so interested to know.
I feel like there must be aKevin Feige of the Harry and
Meghan cinematic universe, whois like, okay, this is our
five-year plan.
So this Netflix thing is goingto come out in January, and then
this podcast is going to comeout in February and they must
have some sort of five-year planfor how all of this media is
(12:23):
going to roll out.
And it's kind of interesting.
I think, Meghan had said in theOprah interview that she was
everywhere and nowhere at thesame time, and I think that's
going to continue on with them.
They're always going to beeverywhere and nowhere at the
same time.
So they're like, if that's goingto happen, then we might as well
control the narrative forourselves.
(12:44):
And so I think that's a big partof this book and the interviews
that they've been doing.
Because they're like, if peopleare going to talk about us, then
we're just going to tell itourselves, and make some money
while we do it.
Kathryn Willms (12:57):
For sure.
Anne Sampson (12:57):
But with all that happening, Kathryn, do you think
that that means that the marketis just going to be
oversaturated with them?
Kathryn Willms (13:08):
I don't think it is yet for sure.
You know, I do think, I wasthinking obviously, publishers
are well aware and I'm sure theywant to replicate the resounding
successes of the Obama's books,right?
That deal's worth$65 million.
If it hasn't earned out, it'sgotta be close.
Michelle sold 14 million copiesof Becoming.
And so, are Harry and Meghan,the new Barack and Michelle
(13:32):
Obama of publishing?
Like, not so sure they're quitethe same heft as writers or
thinkers, but I do think they'recertainly capitalizing at the
right time and trying to make agood go of it.
And I do think there'lldefinitely be interest in this.
You know, I was thinking of thebest and worst case scenarios
for this book.
So best case scenario (13:48):
it's a best seller, super well-written.
And it provides the sort ofdetails and insights that make
truly great memoirs powerful.
The worst case scenario, it's abest seller and it makes so much
money that hopefully RandomHouse can splurge and launch the
careers of amazing diversewriters with numbers are much
more powerful than this one.
(14:10):
So in a way I think thepublishing industry that it, I
think we might see more booksfrom Meghan and Harry and I
think there'll be interest forsome time to come.
Anne Sampson (14:20):
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
Are you going to read it?
Kathryn Willms (14:23):
Okay.
So I will be the 1223rd personwith it on hold at the Toronto
Public Library,
Anne Sampson (14:33):
I think, yeah.
I'm going to read it-- unlessit's Harry doing the audio book
-- then I might have to actuallylisten to him, do it, because I
think it'll be interesting tohear his voice telling the story
and just where he puts theemphasis on words and how he
describes it.
Even if it's not necessarily hisown words, because i t's a ghost
writer, but at least in his ownvoice.
(14:55):
S o.
Kathryn Willms (14:57):
Maybe you'll be able to tell which part Meghan
Markle wrote for him.
Sam Hiyate (15:10):
Fiction might get the glory and possibly a place
in the canon, but nonfiction canget into some urgent and
dangerous ideas.
To look at the process ofpitching and publishing
narrative nonfiction, we'veconvened a special panel.
Hello everyone.
(15:31):
Today we are talking aboutnarrative nonfiction and we have
some great writers, allnonfiction writers, on our
panel, starting with JonathanTepper, whose book, The Myth of
Capitalism is now more vitalthan ever.
It came out a few years ago, butit's still selling like
hotcakes.
Hi Jonathan.
Jonathan Tepper (15:52):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (15:54):
Good to see you.
We have, Elaine Dewar, whosebook is coming out any day now.
It's got a long title, so I haveit in front of me.
It's On the Origin of theDeadliest Pandemic in 100 Years:
An Investigation.
Good to see you, Elaine.
Elaine Dewar (16:12):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (16:13):
And, we have, last but not least Tim Christian,
whose book is coming out nextyear, but it's available for
order any time and it's calledHemingway's Widow.
Now, Tim, I can't remember ifwe're changing the subtitle.
I'm going to go with that, but,good to see you.
Timothy Christian (16:30):
Thank you, Sam.
Great to see you as well.
Sam Hiyate (16:33):
I guess the thing about having such a range of
non-fiction writers here is I'mgoing to start a bit about how
did the deal come about?
I think for each of you it's alittle different, but I'd be
curious.
Did you sell the book on aconcept, a proposal, a finished
manuscript?
And what was that like?
Would you do it differently?
And here I will start withJonathan-- why don't we start
(16:57):
with you?
This is The Myth of Capitalism.
Yeah.
Jonathan Tepper (17:00):
Yes.
So the book in terms of selling,it was really, essentially
selling an almost finishedproduct at that stage.
I think we were half done by thetime the book contract got done
and part of it was, you know,one that I'd been working on it
for quite a bit of time myself.
Then also, you know, the hardpart for me is the research and
(17:25):
putting things together-- theeasier part is writing once I
know what I want to say.
And so I was just writing awaywhile you were pitching it to
the publishers.
And so by the time I finishedthe book.
It was only a couple monthsafter we'd actually even signed
the contract.
Sam Hiyate (17:45):
So that's the kind of standard way-- is you have
the proposal, you write somesample chapters, you pitch it
and-- Tim, your situation was alittle different in that you had
to write or collect the materialand write much of it first.
Timothy Christian (18:01):
Yes, I did.
So, the first time we tried onthe basis of a book proposal
with sample chapters and wedidn't get takers.
Sam, you remember that painfulprocess quite well.
Sam Hiyate (18:14):
I think you took it quite well.
I was worried I was going tocall and not get an answer.
Timothy Christian (18:18):
But, so then I think that there were a couple
of problems that the projectwasn't, perhaps as well-defined,
as it ought to have been.
I'm not a Hemingway scholar.
So there's a question about mycredibility to write such a
book.
And I don't think the zeitgeistwas quite right for it.
I continued to work for anothertwo years.
And then we did sell it as afull book.
(18:41):
And Sam cleverly decided, weshould surf on the popularity,
the renewed popularity ofHemingway after the PBS series,
that Ken Burns had created,created with, with Novick.
Sam Hiyate (18:57):
I have to say, just as an agent, I did panic as you
and I had talked about,"Oh,we're going to get to Hemingway
when it's done." And all of asudden Ken Burns was there at
PBS Hemingway.
And then I thought, this is ourwindow.
We better get, we better getthat manuscript out.
It was a little bit panicked inthe office that day.
And so Elaine, let's talk a bitabout this massive book.
(19:22):
Like I remember at one point itwas supposed to be 150 pages.
I'm looking at it now, and it'slike closer to 450 pages.
Elaine Dewar (19:29):
Right.
With microscopic size endnotes.
You know, this book was totallyanomalous.
It's part of a series that DanWells at Bilblioasis decided to
start in his madness.
And he called me up in, I think,March of 2020 and said, I'm
(19:51):
doing this series.
I want you to do a book and Iwant you to do it on, I think it
was pandemic profiteers.
The last book I did for him wasa business book, and I was
really not interested in doinganother business book.
And besides I was alreadyobsessed with SARS COV-2 and its
origin and started clipping andwas reading.
So I said,"Nope, won't do that.
(20:12):
Want to do this?
What do you think?" And he said,"I don't know.
I've never done science.
I don't know." I said,"Well,okay.
But here's why it's important."So that was it.
That was the whole thing.
So we had a deal on the phone.
Sam Hiyate (20:28):
That's the dream that you have a pitch..
.
Elaine Dewar (20:31):
It never happened to me before.
Sam Hiyate (20:32):
"We got to check on the way."
Elaine Dewar (20:35):
Well, here's my 10 Minute pitch.
Okay.
I mean, not written, I didn'twrite one word, which turned out
to be a problem.
Because when you do a pitch, youform at least a basic idea of
what it is you're going to doand how are you going to do it.
And after I said, sure, let'sgo.
I then had a panic attackbecause figuring out how to do a
non-fiction book in the middleof a pandemic was really a
(20:57):
daunting prospect.
So it was fun, but I don'tadvise.
Sam Hiyate (21:03):
So you guys all did different, completely different
kinds of research.
So Jonathan, your old companywas doing financial research.
So is that what led you to TheMyth of Capitalism, when you
realized certain patterns werehappening?
Jonathan Tepper (21:16):
Yeah.
So the the book essentially cameout of trying to answer a
question for myself.
I didn't really even know that Iwas going to write a book.
I was very interested in solvingor answering a question or a
puzzle that had presenteditself, which is why were
corporate profits so high.
And historically they've meanreverted quite a lot, and that
has enormous investmentimplications.
(21:37):
And if they don't mean revert,then clearly something's changed
in the world.
And that also has tremendousimplications.
And so I didn't know the answerwhen I started investigating.
Really the idea of monopoliesbeing the main reason why, a nd
certainly not the only reason.
Nothing in the world ismonocausal like that, but it's
certainly a very important one.
It came from the research itselfand then, u m, I had done an
(22:02):
enormous amount of research.
I talked to you about it.
And I essentially had, I thinkabout a hundred page outline
together by the time I startedwriting.
And it was very, very clear tome how the book was going to be
laid out.
And so, I knew that I wanted towrite this book no matter what.
And then it was just really aquestion of where, what
publisher would like it andwhere would the audience be.
(22:22):
But, you know, I was reallywriting it sort of essentially
for myself and my clients.
And then I thought that peoplewould find it interesting to
read too.
Sam Hiyate (22:31):
I was a little terrified when we had the first,
an early conversation about it.
When you said that the idealkind of state of business for
like the Nazis was to have, forthat kind of socialist structure
was to have two or threecompanies, not more and I'm I'm
thinking, well, this seems likean awful lot like America right
(22:51):
now.
Jonathan Tepper (22:52):
Well, it is true.
I think that if you look at theNazis, they definitely had the
cartels.
They, you know, the U S, wascalling these kinds of companies
trusts at the time-- in Europeand Germany, they were called
cartels.
Now you see this in China wherethey're very large monopolies
effectively.
And I think the reason whygovernments that aren't
democratic tend to like these isthat, it's much easier to boss,
(23:15):
one or two people around, youknow, who run a very large
company than it is, you know,the sort of thousands of
shopkeepers or smallercompanies.
And so, democracy itself, Ithink is deeply intertwined with
competition.
And I think that's why Napoleonsaid that the UK was essentially
a nation of shopkeepers and hesaid it very pejoratively, but I
(23:35):
think that was actually awonderful compliment to the UK
at the time.
Sam Hiyate (23:39):
Tim, in your case research-- I feel like you
probably had the most fun doingresearch-- It was like, well,
Hemingway's in Cuba.
I have to go to Cuba.
He was in Paris.
I need to go to Paris.
I feel like it was like this--maybe I'm wrong-- but I feel
like you had this beautifulseries of trips around the world
that where you got to eat welland live well, but you also dug
(24:02):
into the research.
Timothy Christian (24:04):
Well, yeah, it was a work of love.
I felt I had to go to the placesthat Hemingway and Mary visited
or lived in, in order to be ableto write authentically about
them.
There were a lot of funny thingsthat happened.
One of the most funny, perhaps,was a trip to London to
(24:26):
investigate places that Maryfrequented during the second
World War.
And she actually met Hemingwayfor the first time in a Greek
Cypriot restaurant called TheWhite Tower.
So I decided I would retrace thefootsteps from her office to The
White Tower, which is just offOxford Street.
(24:46):
I arrived at The White Tower andit's now called the house of
hope, but it looks the same, butit's now a Chinese restaurant.
But I mean, if I hadn't gonethere, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
have that feeling for the place.
And that's how I justified thevarious trips that I've taken.
And I really do feel that giventhe sort of book I've written, I
(25:09):
had to have that familiarity andthe f eel for place.
Sam Hiyate (25:13):
Did you have to dig through a lot of archives, like
paper-only archives.
Cause I have the feeling that'swhat you were doing the rest of
the time
Timothy Christian (25:20):
Yeah.
The rest of the time, that'swhat I was doing.
Hemingway's papers are held atthe JFK library in Boston.
Mary's papers are there as well.
I visited that library.
I spent weeks there.
But they also provided me withreally thousands of pages of
correspondence and journals anddiaries and digital files.
(25:44):
So I spent-- during COVID I wasable to be quite productive
because I had, or I have one ofthe largest libraries of
Hemingway material outside ofBoston, according to one of
their archivists.
So, that was very useful.
I also went to the New Yorkpublic library, spent some time
(26:05):
there.
And, in each of these trips, Idon't know how you found your
archival work, but the mostamazing thing about it is the
thrill of discovering thingsthat no one knows about, no one
has seen and which really canturn the story, quite
dramatically.
And I had a few, a few examplesof that excitement.
Sam Hiyate (26:29):
I'm going to leave some of that for people that
read, that, buy the book andfind out.
But I think that brings us toElaine.
So Elaine, you took this projecton when the pandemic-- we were
already in a lockdown situation-- were you kind of crazy?
Were you kind of thinking--
Elaine Dewar (26:45):
Yeah, I was kind of crazy.
Sam Hiyate (26:45):
...
I'm going to get on a plane andfigure this out.
I'm just like, as if thispandemic wasn't happening or did
you know what you were gettinginto?
Elaine Dewar (26:51):
No, I did not.
And yes I did.
So for example, I'm identifyingwith Tim because that is how I
would normally do a book.
I would go, I would interview, Iwould travel.
I would see.
And I would immerse myself inother people's circumstances, as
well as in libraries andarchives.
For this one, it became veryclear, very quickly that I could
(27:14):
not get a single seniorscientist to respond.
Even by email.
They were out of their labs orthey were ducking their heads.
And at that point I had apanicked phone call with Dan and
said,"I don't know how I'm goingto do this." And he said,"Okay,
how are you going to do this?"So I said.
"Aha! I have an answer." Thevirtue of science is that it's
published.
(27:35):
So if you can't get to a personwho doesn't want to talk to you
about his work, you just go andpick up what he's published.
And in doing that, I gave myselfpillars to stand upon and then
sort of went forward from thatpoint.
So I read a humongous amount ofacademic publishing, which I
(27:59):
don't recommend.
But it was very helpful.
And, the biggest problem wascreating that narrative arc to
tell that story, the discoverystory that happens not in the
usual way, by opening a door andfinding a human being to tell
you that story.
But by crafting that story withmy own voice.
It was hard.
Sam Hiyate (28:21):
Publishers are always saying they want both
credibility and a platform.
How would you guys respond tothat?
Cause the platform thing isoften a chicken or egg kind of
thing.
Do you guys have any thoughts onthat?
On credibility versus platform,or both, in your writing?
Let's go back to Tim for a sec.
Timothy Christian (28:39):
In terms of platform.
I don't really have a platform.
I mean, I have a website and soon, but, we're going to have to
figure out how we do this-- howwe go forward and publicize this
thing.
Sam Hiyate (28:50):
Yeah.
So Elaine about platform.
How do you feel about that?
Elaine Dewar (28:53):
You know, I think it's a waste of time.
I do.
Sam Hiyate (29:00):
A lot of Publishers would not even understand that
because all--
Elaine Dewar (29:03):
I know.
Sam Hiyate (29:03):
-- they ask me is like, what's the author's
platform.
Like, this is great that theyhave this idea, but who are
they?
Why should we care?
Elaine Dewar (29:08):
Yeah.
My job is to get out there andunderstand what's going on in
reality.
And I think the more time youspend on Twitter and Facebook
and whatever, the less time youspend thinking, and the more
time you spend immersed in alike-minded group, which is not
necessarily a good thing.
Certainly it's not a good thingfor the kind of work I do.
(29:30):
And it's also a function of ageof me.
I'm sure I was never a rapidadapter as you can see from
this, but it's distracting andI'm a single-minded kind of gal.
I'm out there working my gutsout to find out what I'm trying
to find out and to write it inthe best possible way I can.
(29:52):
And I figured it's up to thepublisher to get it in front of
people.
It's not my job.
My job is to find the story andtell it.
Jonathan Tepper (30:00):
I think that's the paradox of the platform.
A lot of the greatest writers,or most of them, are not on
Twitter, don't tweet.
And if you look at the investingworld, the reason why I'm no
longer, tweeting or spending anytime on it is that the people I
admire the most as investors arenot really on Twitter.
They're investing.
And so, if you want to do greatwork, spending your day,
(30:24):
engaging with your platforms isnot the way to go.
So it's-- you know-- in a way,having a platform helps, people
who don't know that you'vewritten a book become aware of
it, but it will prevent you fromwriting the next book, or
running a fund-- whatever it isthat you're doing-- you're not
going to be doing it if you'reon Twitter all day.
Sam Hiyate (30:41):
Okay guys.
Well, I hope for anybody outthere listening and working on a
nonfiction book, that they'vegot some interesting ideas here
from Elaine.
Thank you so much, Jonathan.
Thank you.
And Tim, thank you so much.
Timothy Christian (30:52):
Thank you.
Jonathan Tepper (30:53):
Thank you.
Elaine Dewar (30:54):
My pleasure.
Sam Hiyate (31:01):
Oh my god.
So season one is over.
Thanks to all of our guests, ourproducer, Andrew Kaufman.
And thank YOU once again forlistening in.
We will be back in October withseason two and hopefully special
coverage from the Frankfurt BookFair-- depending on the
(31:21):
pandemic, of course,-- whereCanada is the guest of honor.
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