This week we have two panels. First, Jamie Lynn Spears sparks a discussion about celebrity sibling memoirs moderated by our brand manager Anne Sampson, with agent Kathryn Willms and editorial assistant Claire Cavanagh, Second, editor Diane Terrana shares her opinion piece, "Trigger Happy," followed by a more in-depth panel on Trigger Warnings where Sam Hiyate moderates, featuring agent Natalie Kimber, and author Andrew Kaufman in discussion with Diane.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:05):
Welcome to episode three of season two of
everyone's favourite publishingpodcast, or soon to be-- Agent
Provocateur.
I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief AgentProvocateur at The Rights
Factory.
And I'm so grateful for yourattention.
Thank you so much for listeningin this week's show.
(00:26):
We only have two items.
First, a lighthearted look atmemoirs by unfamous siblings.
Kathryn Willms (00:34):
Think siblings are the best things and they're
your team.
And clearly Jamie Lynn is justnot on Brittany's team right
now.
Sam Hiyate (00:40):
Then-- heads up, we're taking a long look at a
big issue, which is triggerwarnings.
Natalie Kimber (00:47):
You're triggered by the trigger warning.
Diane Terrana (00:49):
I'm triggered by the-- no, I'm outraged by the
fact that people get to say, Idon't want to hear or be around
or see pregnancy or childbirth.
Sam Hiyate (00:59):
So stay tuned and hold tight! At the end of 2021,
the#FreeBritney movement had abig win-- Britney Spears
(01:20):
conservatorship officiallyended.
Now three months later, whileBritney seems to be living her
best life on social media withher hunky personal trainer
fiance, her sister, Jamie Lynnhas released a tell-all memoir
"Things I Should Have Said'"about her childhood, the
pressures of teen stardom, andof course her relationship with
(01:42):
her sister.
There is no shortage ofcelebrity family members willing
to capitalize on the tell-allmemoir genre.
To discuss"sizzling" rivalry, wehave our brand manager, Anne
Sampson, agent Kathryn Willms,and editorial assistant Claire
Cavanagh.
Anne Sampson (02:05):
I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager of The Rights
Factory.
And I'm joined by TRF literaryagent Kathryn Willms, who you
may remember from our previousBritney book segment.
Hi Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (02:15):
Hello!
Anne Sampson (02:16):
And also Rights Factory editorial assistant and
fellow pop culture aficionado,Claire Cavanagh.
Hi Claire.
Claire Cavanagh (02:23):
Hi.
Anne Sampson (02:24):
All right, so first question.
So who owns their story when itintersects with someone else's?
So maybe more specifically inthe case of celebrity families,
does it make a difference, kindof ethically or morally, if the
one telling all is the famousfamily member or the less-famous
family member or the not-at-allfamous family member?
(02:47):
What do you think, Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms (02:51):
Thanks, Anne.
Well, first of all I mustconfess-- see what I did there?
I am not following this storyclosely at all because it's just
really sad.
Anne Sampson (03:03):
Yeah.
Kathryn Willms (03:04):
But you know, on one hand, like who doesn't love
a sibling rivalry?
Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esauand Noel and Liam, the Roys.
Now Jamie Lynn and Brit Brit.
So, normally I'm in, but this islike watching"Tiger King"-- it's
painful.
And I don't think there are anywinners, um, but I'm on a
(03:25):
podcast, so I'm taking a side.
So Jamie Lynn can absolutelywrite her story, but I think the
issue here is that she's alwaysprofited off her bigger sister
and, that's like not just herbook as her whole career.
So, and I'm sure that was superaggravating and I'm sure she
didn't have any control overthat then, but now she is 30
(03:45):
years old and she has chosen towrite this book and then go on
TV and talk about this.
And yet again, it seems like sheis profiting.
And you know, I think, I want toagain, to quote one of my
favorite artists, Jamie don't,you know, you're toxic?
And I guess to the second partof your question, I just think
(04:07):
this is a question of punchingup or punching down.
And I think we all made the samemistake as Jamie Lynn for a long
time.
And I think we continue to makeit, we think we're punching up,
because someone's beautiful orwealthy or famous, but in fact,
we're punching down-- we'reblaming people that are victims
of this system for the system.
And, you know, Jamie said shewrote this book to heal her
(04:27):
trauma, but she's retraumatizinganother victim of the same
system.
And I think, you know, we shouldsay let's all agree to, you
know, put our sights on theright, the people that are
really doing the damage here.
Little kudos to Mary Trump, thatwas punching up, that was
appropriate.
Anne Sampson (04:46):
What do you think, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh (04:49):
I feel there's kind of, when we talk about
this, there are two categoriesto this.
So I feel on one side you havethe kind of unknown people that
write things.
For example, Megan Markle'ssister that you talked about.
Or I know that Madonna's brotherwrote a book about her literally
called"Life with my sisterMadonna," years ago.
And then on the other hand, youhave people that have their own
public profile, like CaitlynJenner or Jamie Lynn Spears,
(05:11):
that kind of write their story,while also talking about their
famous family members.
And I think that it's anargument that they're always
making and you see Jamie Lynnright now saying,"It's not about
Britney, it's about me.
It's not about her," but thisbecomes very disingenuous, which
during the promotional cycle,they use stories about their
(05:32):
famous siblings to then sell thebooks.
And I think that that's when itbecomes very complicated.
And I think that that's whatpeople don't like about them.
And Jamie Lynn's case, it's veryinteresting because she does
have a great story.
I mean, Jamie Lynn's own storyis very interesting, but then
therefore, why is she constantlytalking about Britney in this.
Anne Sampson (05:51):
Mm-hmm.
Claire Cavanagh (05:52):
So yeah, I think that there's definitely
kind of two different categoriesto it, and I think that it's
quite complex to think about,but I think using it in order to
sell the books and for promotionis where the kind of issues
start to come into this.
Anne Sampson (06:06):
Yeah.
And I think, Mariah Carey, lastyear or the year before it, also
published her memoir, and Ithink both of her non-famous
siblings sued her for theirportrayal in the book.
And her brother, suing her forlike--
Kathryn Willms (06:20):
That's just savvy! Defamation or something.
I think can't remember what itwas, but basically her defense
was that it was in the publicinterest, because people wanted
to hear her story and her storywas so inspirational that it
should wipe out anything thatshe says about anyone,
basically, which sounds like avery M ariah Carey take on that
k ind o f an issue.
Alright, so maybe next question.
(06:43):
I just, I really understand themotivations in that case because
you want to, you want to sue theperson that has all the money.
Anne Sampson (06:48):
Yeah.
Kathryn Willms (06:49):
Like that makes sense.
Anne Sampson (06:50):
Yeah.
Well it's definitely that kindof, like you had said, Kathryn,
the punching down in that, thatcase, because you know, her
sibling things aren't known andMariah Carey's, you know,
incredibly...
Kathryn Willms (07:01):
You mean Julia, Julia and Mark.
Anne Sampson (07:02):
Yeah.
.
Claire Cavanagh (07:03):
I will say actually that Mariah Carey's
sister is slightly, no one onlyshe, she herself has a very,
very sad life and she's come up,you know, in the public.
So that actually becomes alittle more complicated because
there's a huge amount of kind oftrauma there.
But kind of speaking about theMariah, you know, no one was
complaining about Mariah writingabout the non-famous siblings.
(07:25):
You know.
Anne Sampson (07:26):
It's true.
Claire Cavanagh (07:26):
Which is kind of interesting also, so yeah.
Yeah.
Another, another complicatedone.
Anne Sampson (07:32):
All right.
So then next question.
What are your thoughts on thetiming of this memoir?
So obviously it's veryconvenient that it's coming out
at this point, and thepublisher's hoping to capitalize
on#FreeBritney.
So do you think it would've madea difference, kind of morally,
ethically, if she'd publishedthis, you know, a year ago
before this had reached a feverpoint or even a year from now--
(07:54):
six months from now-- when thedust had settled a little bit.
What are your thoughts, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh (08:00):
Can I just say, I have been kind of reflecting
on this today.
I actually listened to a podcastall about Jamie Lynn's memoir
today.
And I've been just thinking Iwould have loved to have been a
fly on the wall in thatpublishers--
Anne Sampson (08:14):
A hundred percent, a hundred percent
Claire Cavanagh (08:17):
About this book, I am fascinated by their
choices here.
And I think, I do think for thepublisher they're in between a
bit of a rock and a hard placewith this.
Because look, they do need tobring it out when there is
interest there.
Anne Sampson (08:29):
Yeah.
Claire Cavanagh (08:30):
But I also do wonder, as Kathryn was saying,
it is sad.
There's so much affection forBritney and everyone, you know,
everyone's been following it alot.
And I think at this point,people just want Britney to be
able to live her life.
And while I don't want to saythere's Britney fatigue, because
I don't think that will ever bea thing.
I do wonder if the interest isgoing to maybe wane in the whole
(08:51):
thing very, very soon.
Anne Sampson (08:53):
Yeah, and I almost wonder if it's like, it was in
the publisher's best interestfor the book to come out now,
but maybe not in Jamie Lynn'sbest interest for the book to
come out right now.
Yeah.
What do you think, Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms (09:03):
I definitely agree, Anne.
Yeah, I think so too, because,you know, I think on the
publisher's side, like it's aChristian publisher, which is
kind of interesting to me and Ithink, you know, I'm kind of
wondering who they thought wasgoing to read this book.
And like, so people are sayingit's not selling well, I'm like,
what were their expectations forit?
Like I literally was like, whowould read a Jamie Lynn memoir?
(09:24):
And, I don't want to judge.
Anyone here can please, pleaseread it.
But I'm, I'm actually curious.
But then in terms of sisterlyrelations, what a disaster! I
don't, I don't want to getsentimental here, but I have
five siblings.
And I'm sure they will featureprominently in my future memoir,
Kat's Sat, I'm calling it.
(09:45):
No subtitle.
But I just think siblings arethe best things.
And they're your team.
And clearly Jamie Lynn is justnot on Britney's team right now.
And I think that's just reallysad and I just want to be, you
know, she's a Catholic, theseare our oldest stories, Jamie
Lynn, like, let's just getthere.
Be a little self-aware aboutwhat you're doing.
And, yeah.
So I feel like I agree with you,Anne.
(10:07):
I don't think this was good forJamie Lynn in, in any respect.
Anne Sampson (10:11):
Yeah.
All right.
So last question then.
Are you going to read JamieLynn's memoir?
If not, is there anothercelebrity whose sibling's
memoir, you are itching to read.
Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms (10:22):
I'd say, bring on Courtney-- one of the
Kardashians.
Let's go.
Let's-- let's see how much.
Anne Sampson (10:28):
I want Rob's.
Kathryn Willms (10:30):
Rob's, Rob's memoir.
And also Maggie, what does shethink of all these blind items
about Jake Gyllenhaal.
I'm curious.
And, of course, Prince Harry,Anne's favourite.
Anne Sampson (10:40):
Oh, yes.
Kathryn and I already discussedthat previously on the podcast.
We're both itching for that one.
Kathryn Willms (10:46):
What about you, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh (10:49):
No, I won't be reading it.
And one thing, I mean, Kathryn,you were saying it's not selling
very well.
I haven't looked at the salesfigures for it, but these books
don't actually do very well,usually.
Like they don't have big salesfigures.
And I find that interesting--people aren't very interested in
them.
And usually one of thecriticisms is because they don't
really tell all, like there's alot missing from them.
(11:10):
But for a celebrity I wouldread, I would probably read Rob
Kardashian if he really went inthere and actually told us all.
I will also say, I am not abovea trashy, unauthorized
biography.
I read one on Kate Moss yearsago.
And if her brother were topublish one, I'd probably read
it as well.
You know?
So I'm not, I'm not above these.
(11:30):
Definitely not.
Anne Sampson (11:32):
I think I'm with both of you.
I think Jamie Lynn, I'm probablynot going to read because I
think it, it falls into thistrap that happens with a lot of
celebrity memoirs where all thejuicy bits just get put up on US
Weekly, and then you don'treally need to read the whole
book because most of it's there.
One celebrity memoir Idefinitely want to read though--
and this is for anyone who's aReal Housewives fan-- is Kim
(11:54):
Richards, because...
Claire Cavanagh (11:56):
Yes.
Anne Sampson (11:56):
Kim Richards is the sister of Kyle Richards,
who's also on the RealHousewives of Beverly Hills and
Kathy Hilton, Paris Hilton'smother.
And they all grew up as childstars or particularly Kim was
the child star.
She really carried that family.
And there was a big falling outa couple years ago when Kyle
produced like a semiautobiographical television show
(12:17):
about their experience growingup.
And they've talked about likegoing to Studio 54 with their
mother when they were liketeenagers, quite young
teenagers.
So I think Kim has just livedthis really wild, incredible
life.
And I can't wait to read aboutit.
And I know she's gonna talkabout her sisters, so.
Claire Cavanagh (12:33):
There was supposed to be one, but I've
heard that it is since canceled.
Anne Sampson (12:35):
I think it's coming out.
I checked online today.
And Amazon has it coming out inlike September or something, so.
Kathryn Willms (12:42):
Oh, fantastic.
I can't--
Anne Sampson (12:43):
I think it's getting pushed back, so.
Claire Cavanagh (12:47):
Okay.
Kathryn Willms (12:47):
So we'll see,
Claire Cavanagh (12:47):
But I am with you on that one and maybe we
will have a later episode onthat.
Anne Sampson (12:51):
Yes.
Oh yeah.
A hundred percent.
We'll be back when that onecomes out.
All right.
Thanks both.
That was a lot of fun.
Claire Cavanagh (12:58):
Thanks Anne.
Kathryn Willms (12:59):
That was great, Anne! Thanks so much.
Sam Hiyate (13:13):
Okay.
Trigger warning.
We're about to talk abouttrigger warnings, which are
becoming big in books in notonly how they're being taught,
but because they're alsocultural products available to
consumers that may-- and indeedshould-- provoke strong emotion.
This is a hot button issue,especially after some opinions
(13:34):
last year came out askingwhether trigger warnings really
work.
To set up our panel.
here is an opinion piece fromTRF executive editor, Diana
Terrana, after which our panelof author Andrew Kaufman and
agent Natalie Kimber willdiscuss, with me.
Diane Terrana (13:56):
England is making today's editorial, Trigger
Happy, too easy-- way too easy.
The University of North Hamptonslapped a trigger warning on
Orwell's 1984, a novel thatdramatizes the dangers of
censorship and thought police.
And the University of Salford isworried that Jane Eyre and Great
Expectations will cause theirstudents distress.
(14:20):
When I grew up Bronte andDickens were part of the
childhood reading canon, I readand loved both those novels
before I turned 12, just saying.
So now I'm going to list fivereasons to rethink trigger
warnings.
One, they are so inclusive,they're meaningless.
Take the University of Reading's2021 list.
(14:42):
It includes pregnancy andchildbirth.
Students are triggered bypregnancy and childbirth.
Worse, professors have toaccommodate them with trigger
warnings and an adjustment ofcourse content, if needed.
Wow.
What's next to help these frailbeings?
Will pregnant women be bannedfrom the classroom?
(15:04):
Pregnant women have been bannedfrom public life before.
.
Two, this triviality mocksvictims of genuine tragedy.
The parent whose child has died,the family whose village was
bombed, the kids whose parentswere murdered-- are not, not in
the same category as those ofyou traumatized by the
(15:24):
well-known trigger, smoking.
Three, this trigger warningcount as elitist.
Take the popular eatingdisorder.
Why is it special?
Why is it on everybody's list?
All psychiatric orders causesuffering.
Be egalitarian.
Get out the DSM five, a 947 pagemanual, that itemizes mental
(15:48):
disorders, then add each one toeverybody's list.
Four.
There is an anti-feminist femalefactor.
Trigger warnings began appearingon feminist websites and in
gender studies classes circa2000, hence were slanted to
girls and women.
Harvard law professor JeanieSuit Gerson has written about
female students too triggered toattend classes on rape law.
(16:12):
So instead of prosecutingrapists, these young women are
plugging their ears and sayingLA LA LA LA LA LA LA.
Why?
Why are we resurrecting theVictorian fainting lady?
A hundred years of fighting theconcept that women are weak and
unsuited for public life.
And now we're actually trying toprove it's true.
And finally, Five-- there's anunpleasant performative aspect,
(16:35):
some trigger happy individualstake out their sensitivities,
polish them up and put them ondisplay like trophies.
Proof that they are gentler andmore virtuous than those of us
who don't act out when we'retriggered.
And don't insist on constantpublic acknowledgement that we,
like all sentient beingseverywhere, suffer.
(16:56):
Thanks for listening or yellingat your computer, whichever
happened.
Sam Hiyate (17:02):
And with that editorial, I'm going to
introduce the trigger happypanel today of starring all your
favourite Rights Factory people.
So starting with Diane.
Diane Terrana (17:13):
Hello.
Sam Hiyate (17:14):
Welcome.
Natalie Kimber.
Natalie Kimber (17:17):
Hi.
Sam Hiyate (17:19):
And stepping from behind the producer seat here at
the Rights Fa-- oh, the AgentProvocateur podcast, we have
Andrew Kaufman stepping in as awriter and thinker in his own
right.
Andrew Kaufman (17:32):
Hey Sam, how are you?
Sam Hiyate (17:33):
Hey, good to see you, man.
So, Diane, there's lots todecompress there.
The Victorian fainting lady isinteresting.
The fact that books, following,I guess, in other kind of
cultural products, books arebeing given trigger warnings.
Let's start with Natalie,because you're, kind of in the
(17:56):
middle here, I think betweenAndrew and Diane.
What's your thinking abouttrigger warnings?
Natalie Kimber (18:01):
I heard you echo that term, the fainting
Victorian lady or the Victorianfainting lady, something like
that.
And that leads me to the conceptthat gets thrown around a lot in
these conversations, which isthat of fragility, as if it's
something to be avoided.
I think fragility is a termthat's misplaced.
When what we're really talkingabout is vulnerability.
I keep hearing that word, youknow, in these discussions when,
(18:26):
and I think really, as far asstudents go, as far as
readership goes, when is enoughenough?
We already ask youth, who aregrowing up in this crumbling
world, late stage capitalism tobe stronger, stronger, and
stronger all the time.
We de-emphasize personal humanemotions all the time for what?
Usually, it's for profit.
(18:46):
Trigger warnings, just byexisting, apart from how much a
person chooses to read orconsume content after them.
They come from a place ofconsideration and care.
That's a great place to start inany interaction.
An analogy I want to bring intothis is something that deals
with extreme trauma, or, youknow, personal trauma or direct
(19:09):
experience, in peace makingsettings and dialogue sessions,
it seeks to build trust and forthe path to reconciliation in
war conflict zones, et cetera.
The first step to establishingthat, you know, that atmosphere
in which you can build trust is,um, establishing human empathy,
acknowledging fragility,acknowledging trauma, and
(19:32):
establishing a safe space forexpression and listening.
Trigger warnings for us asreaders actually have a similar
function.
They establish care for thereader from the jump.
And I think that's why they'reimportant.
Sam Hiyate (19:44):
Wow.
Okay.
That sounds awesome.
The idea of fragility versusvulnerability is a good point.
Andrew, let's move to you.
So vulnerability, what do youmake of that?
Andrew Kaufman (19:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's what it's all about
and I feel like, so I'm all fortrigger warnings.
I think they should be oneverything.
I literally think that's theleast we can do.
And so I have two points.
One it's like what we are.
So what is considered being toosensitive, being too vulnerable
has been moving for as long asI've been alive.
(20:19):
Right?
So there's like a whole bunch ofqueer culture.
There's a whole bunch of likefeminist rights who, which in
the seventies and before, wouldbe, would you know-- where we
think the bar is now-- has moveda lot.
And I feel like, to go againsttrigger warnings is to stop that
movement to a really moresensitive, open place.
(20:42):
And then the other thing I wouldsay is that it's like, I feel
like trigger warnings, get a badrap because people interpret
them as avoidance.
It's like, if I'm reading a bookor I'm oh, looking through a
book and I see a triggerwarning, oh, I'm gonna put that
book down.
And I don't think that's howtrigger warnings work at all.
I feel like trigger warnings.
I see that as like,"All right,well, I know that's coming,"
(21:02):
right.
So it doesn't just take me bysurprise.
It doesn't like, just like, oh,all, you know, I did not think I
was gonna have to deal with thattoday.
And people who are going throughmajor trauma, it's like, and
that's a really good thing.
Right.
So I don't understand thehesitation at all.
Sam Hiyate (21:20):
So speaking about people going through trauma, I
think we, we now can say safelythat that's everybody, all the
time.
Andrew Kaufman (21:28):
No, but that's not fair at all.
Right?
Because there's people who aregoing through major trauma, that
there are people that otherpeople aren't.
And I mean, I acknowledge thateveryone is working through
trauma.
The biggest trauma they've everhad, right.
Everyone has the biggest traumaby definition that they've ever
had.
But I don't think that reallyacknowledges that there are
(21:49):
people going through major,major stuff on the scale.
Natalie Kimber (21:53):
I think that we can mostly agree that trauma
disproportionately affects, thepoor, the oppressed and
marginalized people.
And these are all the samepeople that we want to increase
our readership with.
So doing something that offersthem a safer space is a better
way to, you know, bring them inand give them more books, give
(22:14):
them more topics.
Another thing is that I alwaysam reading any kind of articles
about this-- one came out fromthe new Yorker last fall.
Another one came out from Vox.
Of t he sort of counterintuitiveideas behind why not to have
trigger warnings.
A lot of them say this idea thattrigger warnings don't lessen
(22:36):
the traumatic response forpeople.
So you can be warned about, youknow, sensitive content.
And then when you come across,it, it doesn't, you know,
lessen, however you're gonnarespond to it.
And in that case, I just thinkthat doesn't mean that we just
like take it out altogether.
You know, I think it still has aplace.
(22:56):
Andrew, you mentioned it, youknow, just knowing i t, i n not
having that surprise factor, is,you know, is a good reason.
Andrew Kaufman (23:06):
Yeah.
I think Diane, I think we needto speak, and hear from Diane
for a second-- before that, Ijust wanna say it's like, for
me, I mean, I'm, I'm personallyworking through a pretty major
tragedy.
I don't really want to talkabout it, at all.
But I, you know, it's like, Ithink everyone here knows that
I'm going through this thing.
And when I have, when I'mconsuming culture and an episode
(23:29):
that is like the episode I'veexperienced comes up.
If I know it's coming, then Iknow to get my, you know, my
methods of recovery, and allthat sort of stuff.
You know?
So it's like, I think of trauma,like, like a hot water burn
where the sooner you can getcold water on it, the less
intense it's going to be.
(23:50):
And so if I have a triggerwarning, then it's sort of
metaphorically, like I'm gonnaget, you know, the bucket of
cold water out.
So I know when to use it, doesthat make any sense?
Diane Terrana (24:00):
Absolutely.
I would only say, I distinguishin my editorial between people
who are going through majortrauma as you are Andrew, and
the vast hoards who want to beknown for being traumatized, the
people who are traumatized bysmoking, the people who read a
book and are traumatized if theycome across a pregnant woman.
(24:22):
I mean, at some point that justmakes a mockery of real trauma,
as I said, and it makes thewhole concept of trigger
warnings absurd.
Natalie Kimber (24:32):
But so I think what you're talking about are
like extreme extreme cases orsort of outliers on the spectrum
of what we would call a triggerwarning.
Diane Terrana (24:40):
I wish.
Kathryn Willms (24:41):
I really don't think that books particularly
are giving trigger warnings forpregnancy or childbirth.
Diane Terrana (24:49):
They are.
They totally are-- i n theUniversity of Reading if you are
teaching a book or in a lecture.
Natalie Kimber (24:55):
But you're talking about pedagogy and
teaching not--
Diane Terrana (24:58):
But, uh, it--
Natalie Kimber (24:59):
Putting them in the front of books.
Diane Terrana (25:00):
Natalie, how long is it going to be?
Because now professors have topoint out to their students,
trigger warning, there's apregnant character in this book
or, we're discussing, I don'tknow, hopefully it's not medical
school and we don't have peoplefainting at the OB lesson.
But how long since that isencrypted now in a university's
(25:23):
reading trigger list before...?
Natalie Kimber (25:25):
So if you-- but let's just take that pregnancy
or childbirth.
If that is something that is ona university list, is it better
for somebody to be like, oh,well, that's just, that's not
really a thing.
You can't really be triggered bypregnancy or childbirth or
about, you know, the few peoplethat may actually be triggered
by it.
Is it better to have it there?
Diane Terrana (25:46):
No.
Kathryn Willms (25:47):
When it just offends a few people.
Diane Terrana (25:49):
No.
Natalie Kimber (25:49):
For the rest of us, we're just like, oh, who
cares?
Diane Terrana (25:52):
It's absolutely misogynistic.
Natalie Kimber (25:55):
Just for the, the last few, the few tiny
people.
If it's there, it's probablythere for a reason.
And rather than just, you know,the people that are offended by
it or don't really agree, arethey actually hurt being
offended or not really agreeing?
Diane Terrana (26:08):
Because I find it misogynistic.
I am very hurt and outraged byit.
Sam Hiyate (26:13):
So guys, are you saying, Are you saying that--
Natalie Kimber (26:14):
They're triggered by the trigger
warning?
Diane Terrana (26:17):
I'm triggered by the-- no, I'm outraged by the
fact that people get to say, Idon't want to hear or be around
or see pregnancy or childbirth.
How long before pregnant womenaren't allowed back into public
life, because there was a timewhen they weren't.
You couldn't be a pregnantteacher, you couldn't work if
you were pregnant.
I mean, it's hard.
Natalie Kimber (26:36):
Cause I think we're confusing why trigger
warnings are existing?
You're talking about them beingused to then ban certain
identities or characteristics,or.
Diane Terrana (26:47):
I'm saying we can --
Natalie Kimber (26:48):
Or circumstances from public life, which is not
what trigger warnings are therefor.
Diane Terrana (26:53):
It's not what they started out as, but how
long before, since professorsnow have to-- I can't even
imagine I was a high schoolEnglish teacher-- I can't even
imagine how I would teach anovel, any of the novels I ever
taught under these restrictions,how the list on the board...
Natalie Kimber (27:07):
You can still teach it and you can still show
the material and you can still,you know, have a robust
conversation about it.
To say that something istriggering is to say that it
could provoke sensitivity.
Not that the triggering thinginvolves an identity that is
wrong or that involves, youknow, needing to be banned from
society.
Diane Terrana (27:28):
Natalie, people don't have to go to classes if
they're going to be sotriggered, like what I mean
really address.
Natalie Kimber (27:35):
And sometimes I think we need to decide if that
is better for the person who'snot going to the class or not.
Because I think in studies withclassrooms, it's shown that the
students that are going to usethat as an excuse are very few
and far between.
Now in the case, I know youbrought up in your argument.
Diane Terrana (27:55):
The law school.
Natalie Kimber (27:56):
That certain law students are, allowed to not
take the classes on rapeprosecution.
And if they're triggered bythat.
In the spectrum of law, if youdon't want to work in, you know,
on rape cases and you don't, youknow, that's not where you wanna
work in your practice, thenmaybe you shouldn't have to take
(28:17):
that class.
If it's something that isproblem for you.
It's kind of, it's kind ofsaying how many people are going
to take advantage of it, and useit, for their leisure or some
other, you know, stupid reason.
And then versus how many peopleare actually gonna benefit from
it.
Diane Terrana (28:32):
I'm not suggesting that people are going
to use it as an excuse.
I'm saying we're creating awhole generation of people who
are being encouraged to polishup that fragile part of
themselves and to opt out ofpublic life.
Now, can you imagine, you'resaying law students who are
offended by rape law, shouldn'thave to take it.
Well, half of law-- or more-- isabout crime.
(28:53):
It's tough stuff.
Prosecutors and defense lawyersdeal with tough, tough stuff
every day.
Should medical students beallowed out of certain classes,
out of certain areas ofknowledge, because they're only
gonna be a family physician orsay a radiologist because
they're triggered.
Natalie Kimber (29:08):
I'm not sure they should, but I also think
that those are really extremeexamples.
When what we're talking about isless common.
You know, what we're talkingabout are ideas of trauma that
are much more, consensus, like,you know, suicide, murder.
Sam Hiyate (29:27):
Smoking etcetera.
Diane Terrana (29:29):
Yes.
Smoking.
Andrew Kaufman (29:30):
I know, but there's smoking.
Natalie Kimber (29:30):
Grocery stores...
Andrew Kaufman (29:31):
But wait a second, lemme just ask.
Natalie Kimber (29:32):
Spongebob Squarepants.
Who knows?
Andrew Kaufman (29:35):
Let me just ask this question.
It's like, Diane, are youworried that like, I like
trigger warnings because I feellike they're making our society
more inclusive.
But you're worried that thatinclusive or that sensitivity is
actually making our societyworse.
Is that your argument?
Diane Terrana (29:54):
Well, I would say it's very bad for women.
It is bringing back theVictorian fainting lady, the
woman who fainted at the slightprovocation, languishing on her
divan, with her smelling salts.
Andrew Kaufman (30:04):
But you're talking about lawyers and rapes.
Natalie Kimber (30:06):
Extreme.
Andrew Kaufman (30:06):
Like that's-- you're making-- I feel like,
like if you're saying thattrigger warnings may make the
society too sensitive and that'sgoing to take us backwards.
I mean, that's an argument and Ican hear that.
Is that the argument you'remaking?
Diane Terrana (30:22):
Not sensitive, Andrew, I'm saying you can be
sensitive.
I believe I am a genuinelysensitive person.
I'm triggered by many things andI don't go around insisting
people bow down to that in frontof me.
I'm saying--
Kathryn Willms (30:35):
And that's your right to believe that.
I'm saying it makes this more--
Andrew Kaufman (30:37):
Why is that?
If there's a piece of text atthe front of the book says,"Hey,
anyone who gets upset by thisidea, just know it's in here."
Like, how does that--
Diane Terrana (30:48):
Well.
Kathryn Willms (30:48):
How does that 17 words affect you?
Diane Terrana (30:50):
Because they're getting longer and longer, and
they're getting more inclusiveand I would say more absurd.
And in the end, I think it'sjust kind of a bonkers idea.
And it's leading to a kind ofpreciousness, like fragility is
being lifted up and, and beingtough a little bit tough and
(31:11):
saying, yes, this is life.
Everybody bloody suffers in it.
And let's not have students getout of law school.
Let's not have students insist.
So the Jane Eyre school--
Natalie Kimber (31:21):
They still have to take the classes and
graduate.
Diane Terrana (31:23):
Hear what the professors have to do here.
I'll just tell you-- I was ateacher.
So I'm going, are you kiddingme?
They have to open up theirclassrooms early and allow those
students who might be sooffended by books.
I read as a child, to come inand work it out with the
professor.
So a professor couldtheoretically have 15 students
come in each one 10 minutes.
How much time is she dedicating-- or he dedicating-- to, you
(31:46):
know, working out their issueswith Jane Eyre or Great
Expectations.
Natalie Kimber (31:51):
I think we all know that those few, that those
students are going to be veryfew in number.
Diane Terrana (31:58):
I would say one is too many as a teacher.
That would be just too many.
Natalie Kimber (32:02):
It's too many?
One is too many to give 10minutes of time to be
compassionate to?
Diane Terrana (32:09):
About Jane Eyre or Great Expectations, you know,
teachers.
And thank God they're notfragile have to work with
students who come to schooltraumatized every day by real
life things.
And a lot of their time goes to-- to that-- not to, you know,
issues in books, they're readingliterature does reflect the
(32:29):
world and conflict and problems.
Natalie Kimber (32:32):
I would argue that students are faced with
having to be extreme, you know,more tough, having to go by all
kinds of unrealistic standards.
When they walk into a class,then they're just being catered
to, I think that's, that balanceis, you know, Ugh, I think that
balance heavily favours thestudents having to pull more out
(32:57):
of themselves than they shouldbe expected to long before.
We're just coddling them.
Diane Terrana (33:02):
Let me ask you this.
I taught Toni Morrison.
I taught in a private school, soI was able to put the books I
loved on my course list.
And I taught Toni Morrison inall of my English classes.
Now, those books are as tough asthey come.
They have some of the mostfrightful things imaginable in
the world, in them.
If I were to follow sort of therules at the Reading University
(33:24):
or the university that's, thatdid Jane Eyre and Great
Expectations, I would have tohave-- the blackboard would be
covered.
I would get there an hour earlyand cover the Blackboard or
whiteboard with the list ofpossible triggers in a book.
And then I would have to open myclassroom to everybody who
wanted to talk about it.
Now, did I have people coming totalk to me about the book after
(33:48):
they read it or difficultscenes?
Normally we talk those throughin class, as a group of people
because we're studyingliterature, which is tough
stuff.
Natalie Kimber (33:57):
And a lot of classes still have the class
discussion and that studentsaren't just being allowed to
completely opt out.
They still have to handle studyguides and they have to make up
that time.
There's almost never a casewhere, because of a trigger
warning, a student is just, youknow, doesn't have to do any
work at all.
Diane Terrana (34:14):
And so, Natalie, I don't know how you know that
actually, but I don't knowwhether it's true or not, but so
can I ask you, are you guys bothhappy with smoking as a trigger
warning?
Downtown Abby had triggerwarnings.
This is what got me going twoyears ago.
I was watching Downtown Abby.
I'd seen it before.
And the trigger warnings came on-- Language Smoking and Sexual
Violence-- well there was somesexual violence, but I'm looking
(34:37):
at language and smoking--smoking.
There are people who are beingcoddled because they're
triggered by smoking.
Please.
And the language.
Andrew Kaufman (34:45):
So if somebody who wants to stop smoking is
being coddled.
Diane Terrana (34:48):
Oh, come on, Andrew.
Andrew Kaufman (34:49):
I think there's such a judgment in your words.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to say it like that,but it's like, here's what I--
so I've got a little program onmy computer and it's one of
those add-on programs.
And anytime the word"politicallycorrect" comes up in anything,
it changes it, the text, toread,"caring about the feelings
(35:10):
of others." And it's like, it'samazing because you always hear
all these people saying,"Oh, Idon't want to be politically
correct." And then the textsays,"I don't want to be caring
about the feelings of others."And I really feel like that's
what it is.
I feel, I'm putting words inyour mouth right now-- I feel
like this is the politicallycorrect argument.
(35:31):
And I feel like, you know what,"politically correct" just means
that you're caring about otherpeople and what could happen and
what is wrong with that?
Diane Terrana (35:40):
Well, do you see any boundaries to it because you
can freely associate anything.
So the person who--
Andrew Kaufman (35:45):
If you're asking me, is it going to get abused?
I'm gonna say yes.
Diane Terrana (35:48):
No, I wasn't saying that I'm saying.
Andrew Kaufman (35:49):
Totally going to get abused.
Diane Terrana (35:50):
Do you believe.
Andrew Kaufman (35:51):
It's gonna get taken too far?
Absolutely.
Kathryn Willms (35:54):
And you're fine with that.
Who are going to g ame thesystem?
One hundred percent.
Diane Terrana (35:57):
And you have no issue with it being taken like,
'cause you could free associateto anything disturbs you,
traumatizes, you reminds you ofsomething.
Right?
So smoking...
Andrew Kaufman (36:08):
A h undred p ercent.
Kathryn Willms (36:09):
Language-- and this is Downton Abby, the
language by the way.
And the language was like"Damn,""Blasted".
Andrew Kaufman (36:13):
Yeah, we could take it to so many places and
I'm sure it's going to, and thenit's going to get pulled back.
It's a pendulum.
Sam Hiyate (36:20):
Sorry to interrupt Andrew.
Here's a question.
So are we worried at all?
Like what does this mean in thelong run?
Because, does it mean thateventually there'll be
censorship in that people willsay,"Oh, I don't want-- these
are major trigger things.
I'm not going to put them in mystory." Is that something you
think could happen?
Diane Terrana (36:36):
And university professors are not going to put
things on their courses.
Absolutely.
Andrew Kaufman (36:40):
Oh, worse than that.
And I already know examples ofthis, like the politically
climate we're in right now.
There are certain things that--I mean, you guys as agents must
know this as well, that are justare not marketable right now.
There's certain stories, certainwriters certain takes-- right?
So it's like, it is thepolitically, the climate that
(37:00):
trigger warnings is that isgenerating trigger warnings is
shaping the economics ofpublishing.
No doubt.
And I'm not a big fan of that.
I really wish that wasn'thappening.
I think that is bad.
I just don't think that anyreaction's gonna produce a
reaction.
Right.
So now we're in a place wherewe're trying to say, yeah, this
(37:20):
stuff is messed up.
We should like, let's lean intothe people who get messed up by
this.
So I'm-- so yeah.
Is that, does that have fallout?
Is that going to have areaction?
Is there gonna be a shadow tothat movement?
100%.
Diane Terrana (37:35):
So,
Andrew Kaufman (37:35):
And then it's going to swing back.
Diane Terrana (37:37):
Maybe, maybe.
Can I just ask you this.
So is there, in the same waythat I will look at people who
are physically ill, say, and I'mwilling to say that the kid with
metastatic cancer is suffering ahundred million times more than
the person with a head cold, nomatter how much head cold person
complains.
Is there not a problem in doingthat, in saying, that the person
(37:59):
with the head called feels likethey're suffering as Natalie was
saying, they feel like they havetrauma.
And yet, so we're supposed tolevel-- put their trauma at the
same level-- we put, you know,very tragic trauma.
Andrew Kaufman (38:15):
I don't see that happening.
I don't see it.
I don't see that happening now.
I don't see that happening inthe future.
Natalie Kimber (38:19):
I also think it deserves to be said that you
don't have to have directexperience with trauma to want a
trigger warning or contentwarning,
Diane Terrana (38:29):
Should newspapers have trigger warnings?
You would need a newspaper infront of the newspaper to do
that, right?
Sam Hiyate (38:36):
Well, this is where we're getting into this meta
level.
I don't know if you guys knowthe Borges story about the map,
the country of mapmakers whowere so obsessed with making
perfect maps, eventually theygrew them and grew them and grew
them.
So the maps were the same sizeas the topography that they
representing.
So I worry that at some point,the trigger warnings will be the
(38:59):
same length as the literaryproduct.
Andrew Kaufman (39:02):
But that's also assuming that everyone's an
idiot, right?
And it's like, let's not assumethat.
Diane Terrana (39:07):
Really?
Andrew Kaufman (39:07):
Let's assume that readers are smart people.
Let's assume that publishers aresmart people.
Let's-- I will overly admit thatthere's some overreaction going
on for sure.
And let's just admit-- or let'shope-- that we're all smart
enough in this industry that wewill get a handle on it.
And in 10 years time, thetrigger warnings will only be
(39:30):
there for the really intensestuff that messes people up.
Sam Hiyate (39:34):
That's a great, I think a great mandate.
And I think we should end herebecause I feel like we could go
on for days and I think we'reout of time.
So, yeah, maybe final thoughts.
Everybody's looking at me.
Diane Terrana (39:45):
So I'm just saying, so Andrew, you do think
some things, some triggerwarnings are ridiculous, then.
Andrew Kaufman (39:51):
Yeah.
In the context of right now, I'mnot gonna say to stop anything.
Because I feel like the ideaisn't strong enough.
I think the idea has to takeroot and then, then we can, then
we can prune it back.
And I don't think it's takenroot.
So it's like, I feel like partof whether where this society is
right now, is that we have tolike really let the pendulum
swing over and let these ideasgain some, some toe hold, so
(40:15):
that they're not just gonna betaken out.
So yes.
That's where I am.
That's my final thought too,Sam.
Sam Hiyate (40:21):
Okay, great.
That's a good final thought thatwe're in the early stages of
what this all means for culture.
Natalie, a final thought fromyou.
Natalie Kimber (40:28):
Yeah, sure.
I think that it's wrong to saywe won't make time for people
and we shouldn't have to maketime for people's
vulnerabilities, or we shouldn'thave to make space to help
people feel safe.
Trigger warnings are ineffectiveif they don't offer a choice to
opt out.
Now in the classroom setting, itdoesn't mean students always get
(40:49):
to opt out.
Oftentimes they're just there,as you know,"This is what we're
gonna talk about today, butwe're still going to talk about
it." They're also doing adisservice if books or content
is banned or categorized orclassified because of them,
which, then in that case, Iagree with you, Diane, because
if we are going to classifybooks or ban books, because they
(41:10):
have pregnant women, then ofcourse we're going in the wrong
direction.
But I do think that that'sextreme.
I think trigger warnings existto preserve freedom of speech
and to not supportcategorization that cancels
content.
And I think that overall, Imean, we don't get to choose our
(41:31):
memories, especially traumaticmemories.
And this is about making timeand giving space for people to
feel safe.
Sam Hiyate (41:40):
Okay.
Well, thanks everybody.
I feel like it's a good thing weall work together and we're all
on Zoom here because thingsdidn't lead to fisticuffs, and
we're all one(still) one greathappy family.
I can still feel the love,despite the minor disagreements
-- or major disagreements--today.
Thanks everybody.
Diane Terrana (41:57):
Thank you.
Good to see you guys.
Natalie Kimber (41:59):
Thanks.
Andrew Kaufman (42:00):
Bye.
Bye everybody.
Diane Terrana (42:01):
Good to talk to you guys.
Sam Hiyate (42:08):
That's our show, folks.
Thanks so much.
If you could do us a favour.
If you like us, please share uson your socials and comment.
Review us.
Do whatever you want.
But, good or bad, we want tohear it all.
Today.
I want to thank all of ourpanelists and especially Andrew
(42:30):
Kaufman, for stepping up frombehind the microphones to talk
about trigger warning, as aguest.
We recognize that triggerwarnings are an intense subject
and we'd love to hear youropinion.
Feel free to click on thecontact link on our website at
therightsfactory.
com or reach u s via our socialsand send us your thoughts.
Thanks again for listening.
(42:50):
See you next week, where we'llrevisit the all important
question o f a uthor platform.
T ake c are.
Welcome to episode three of season two of
everyone's favourite publishingpodcast, or soon to be-- Agent
Provocateur.
I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief AgentProvocateur at The Rights
Factory.
And I'm so grateful for yourattention.
Thank you so much for listeningin this week's show.
(00:26):
We only have two items.
First, a lighthearted look atmemoirs by unfamous siblings.
Kathryn Willms (00:34):
Think siblings are the best things and they're
your team.
And clearly Jamie Lynn is justnot on Brittany's team right
now.
Sam Hiyate (00:40):
Then-- heads up, we're taking a long look at a
big issue, which is triggerwarnings.
Natalie Kimber (00:47):
You're triggered by the trigger warning.
Diane Terrana (00:49):
I'm triggered by the-- no, I'm outraged by the
fact that people get to say, Idon't want to hear or be around
or see pregnancy or childbirth.
Sam Hiyate (00:59):
So stay tuned and hold tight! At the end of 2021,
the#FreeBritney movement had abig win-- Britney Spears
(01:20):
conservatorship officiallyended.
Now three months later, whileBritney seems to be living her
best life on social media withher hunky personal trainer
fiance, her sister, Jamie Lynnhas released a tell-all memoir
"Things I Should Have Said'"about her childhood, the
pressures of teen stardom, andof course her relationship with
(01:42):
her sister.
There is no shortage ofcelebrity family members willing
to capitalize on the tell-allmemoir genre.
To discuss"sizzling" rivalry, wehave our brand manager, Anne
Sampson, agent Kathryn Willms,and editorial assistant Claire
Cavanagh.
Anne Sampson (02:05):
I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager of The Rights
Factory.
And I'm joined by TRF literaryagent Kathryn Willms, who you
may remember from our previousBritney book segment.
Hi Kathryn.
Kathryn Willms (02:15):
Hello!
Anne Sampson (02:16):
And also Rights Factory editorial assistant and
fellow pop culture aficionado,Claire Cavanagh.
Hi Claire.
Claire Cavanagh (02:23):
Hi.
Anne Sampson (02:24):
All right, so first question.
So who owns their story when itintersects with someone else's?
So maybe more specifically inthe case of celebrity families,
does it make a difference, kindof ethically or morally, if the
one telling all is the famousfamily member or the less-famous
family member or the not-at-allfamous family member?
(02:47):
What do you think, Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms (02:51):
Thanks, Anne.
Well, first of all I mustconfess-- see what I did there?
I am not following this storyclosely at all because it's just
really sad.
Anne Sampson (03:03):
Yeah.
Kathryn Willms (03:04):
But you know, on one hand, like who doesn't love
a sibling rivalry?
Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esauand Noel and Liam, the Roys.
Now Jamie Lynn and Brit Brit.
So, normally I'm in, but this islike watching"Tiger King"-- it's
painful.
And I don't think there are anywinners, um, but I'm on a
(03:25):
podcast, so I'm taking a side.
So Jamie Lynn can absolutelywrite her story, but I think the
issue here is that she's alwaysprofited off her bigger sister
and, that's like not just herbook as her whole career.
So, and I'm sure that was superaggravating and I'm sure she
didn't have any control overthat then, but now she is 30
(03:45):
years old and she has chosen towrite this book and then go on
TV and talk about this.
And yet again, it seems like sheis profiting.
And you know, I think, I want toagain, to quote one of my
favorite artists, Jamie don't,you know, you're toxic?
And I guess to the second partof your question, I just think
(04:07):
this is a question of punchingup or punching down.
And I think we all made the samemistake as Jamie Lynn for a long
time.
And I think we continue to makeit, we think we're punching up,
because someone's beautiful orwealthy or famous, but in fact,
we're punching down-- we'reblaming people that are victims
of this system for the system.
And, you know, Jamie said shewrote this book to heal her
(04:27):
trauma, but she's retraumatizinganother victim of the same
system.
And I think, you know, we shouldsay let's all agree to, you
know, put our sights on theright, the people that are
really doing the damage here.
Little kudos to Mary Trump, thatwas punching up, that was
appropriate.
Anne Sampson (04:46):
What do you think, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh (04:49):
I feel there's kind of, when we talk about
this, there are two categoriesto this.
So I feel on one side you havethe kind of unknown people that
write things.
For example, Megan Markle'ssister that you talked about.
Or I know that Madonna's brotherwrote a book about her literally
called"Life with my sisterMadonna," years ago.
And then on the other hand, youhave people that have their own
public profile, like CaitlynJenner or Jamie Lynn Spears,
(05:11):
that kind of write their story,while also talking about their
famous family members.
And I think that it's anargument that they're always
making and you see Jamie Lynnright now saying,"It's not about
Britney, it's about me.
It's not about her," but thisbecomes very disingenuous, which
during the promotional cycle,they use stories about their
(05:32):
famous siblings to then sell thebooks.
And I think that that's when itbecomes very complicated.
And I think that that's whatpeople don't like about them.
And Jamie Lynn's case, it's veryinteresting because she does
have a great story.
I mean, Jamie Lynn's own storyis very interesting, but then
therefore, why is she constantlytalking about Britney in this.
Anne Sampson (05:51):
Mm-hmm.
Claire Cavanagh (05:52):
So yeah, I think that there's definitely
kind of two different categoriesto it, and I think that it's
quite complex to think about,but I think using it in order to
sell the books and for promotionis where the kind of issues
start to come into this.
Anne Sampson (06:06):
Yeah.
And I think, Mariah Carey, lastyear or the year before it, also
published her memoir, and Ithink both of her non-famous
siblings sued her for theirportrayal in the book.
And her brother, suing her forlike--
Kathryn Willms (06:20):
That's just savvy! Defamation or something.
I think can't remember what itwas, but basically her defense
was that it was in the publicinterest, because people wanted
to hear her story and her storywas so inspirational that it
should wipe out anything thatshe says about anyone,
basically, which sounds like avery M ariah Carey take on that
k ind o f an issue.
Alright, so maybe next question.
(06:43):
I just, I really understand themotivations in that case because
you want to, you want to sue theperson that has all the money.
Anne Sampson (06:48):
Yeah.
Kathryn Willms (06:49):
Like that makes sense.
Anne Sampson (06:50):
Yeah.
Well it's definitely that kindof, like you had said, Kathryn,
the punching down in that, thatcase, because you know, her
sibling things aren't known andMariah Carey's, you know,
incredibly...
Kathryn Willms (07:01):
You mean Julia, Julia and Mark.
Anne Sampson (07:02):
Yeah.
Claire Cavanagh (07:03):
I will say actually that Mariah Carey's
sister is slightly, no one onlyshe, she herself has a very,
very sad life and she's come up,you know, in the public.
So that actually becomes alittle more complicated because
there's a huge amount of kind oftrauma there.
But kind of speaking about theMariah, you know, no one was
complaining about Mariah writingabout the non-famous siblings.
(07:25):
You know.
Anne Sampson (07:26):
It's true.
Claire Cavanagh (07:26):
Which is kind of interesting also, so yeah.
Yeah.
Another, another complicatedone.
Anne Sampson (07:32):
All right.
So then next question.
What are your thoughts on thetiming of this memoir?
So obviously it's veryconvenient that it's coming out
at this point, and thepublisher's hoping to capitalize
on#FreeBritney.
So do you think it would've madea difference, kind of morally,
ethically, if she'd publishedthis, you know, a year ago
before this had reached a feverpoint or even a year from now--
(07:54):
six months from now-- when thedust had settled a little bit.
What are your thoughts, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh (08:00):
Can I just say, I have been kind of reflecting
on this today.
I actually listened to a podcastall about Jamie Lynn's memoir
today.
And I've been just thinking Iwould have loved to have been a
fly on the wall in thatpublishers--
Anne Sampson (08:14):
A hundred percent, a hundred percent
Claire Cavanagh (08:17):
About this book, I am fascinated by their
choices here.
And I think, I do think for thepublisher they're in between a
bit of a rock and a hard placewith this.
Because look, they do need tobring it out when there is
interest there.
Anne Sampson (08:29):
Yeah.
Claire Cavanagh (08:30):
But I also do wonder, as Kathryn was saying,
it is sad.
There's so much affection forBritney and everyone, you know,
everyone's been following it alot.
And I think at this point,people just want Britney to be
able to live her life.
And while I don't want to saythere's Britney fatigue, because
I don't think that will ever bea thing.
I do wonder if the interest isgoing to maybe wane in the whole
(08:51):
thing very, very soon.
Anne Sampson (08:53):
Yeah, and I almost wonder if it's like, it was in
the publisher's best interestfor the book to come out now,
but maybe not in Jamie Lynn'sbest interest for the book to
come out right now.
Yeah.
What do you think, Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms (09:03):
I definitely agree, Anne.
Yeah, I think so too, because,you know, I think on the
publisher's side, like it's aChristian publisher, which is
kind of interesting to me and Ithink, you know, I'm kind of
wondering who they thought wasgoing to read this book.
And like, so people are sayingit's not selling well, I'm like,
what were their expectations forit?
Like I literally was like, whowould read a Jamie Lynn memoir?
(09:24):
And, I don't want to judge.
Anyone here can please, pleaseread it.
But I'm, I'm actually curious.
But then in terms of sisterlyrelations, what a disaster! I
don't, I don't want to getsentimental here, but I have
five siblings.
And I'm sure they will featureprominently in my future memoir,
Kat's Sat, I'm calling it.
(09:45):
No subtitle.
But I just think siblings arethe best things.
And they're your team.
And clearly Jamie Lynn is justnot on Britney's team right now.
And I think that's just reallysad and I just want to be, you
know, she's a Catholic, theseare our oldest stories, Jamie
Lynn, like, let's just getthere.
Be a little self-aware aboutwhat you're doing.
And, yeah.
So I feel like I agree with you,Anne.
(10:07):
I don't think this was good forJamie Lynn in, in any respect.
Anne Sampson (10:11):
Yeah.
All right.
So last question then.
Are you going to read JamieLynn's memoir?
If not, is there anothercelebrity whose sibling's
memoir, you are itching to read.
Kathryn?
Kathryn Willms (10:22):
I'd say, bring on Courtney-- one of the
Kardashians.
Let's go.
Let's-- let's see how much.
Anne Sampson (10:28):
I want Rob's.
Kathryn Willms (10:30):
Rob's, Rob's memoir.
And also Maggie, what does shethink of all these blind items
about Jake Gyllenhaal.
I'm curious.
And, of course, Prince Harry,Anne's favourite.
Anne Sampson (10:40):
Oh, yes.
Kathryn and I already discussedthat previously on the podcast.
We're both itching for that one.
Kathryn Willms (10:46):
What about you, Claire?
Claire Cavanagh (10:49):
No, I won't be reading it.
And one thing, I mean, Kathryn,you were saying it's not selling
very well.
I haven't looked at the salesfigures for it, but these books
don't actually do very well,usually.
Like they don't have big salesfigures.
And I find that interesting--people aren't very interested in
them.
And usually one of thecriticisms is because they don't
really tell all, like there's alot missing from them.
(11:10):
But for a celebrity I wouldread, I would probably read Rob
Kardashian if he really went inthere and actually told us all.
I will also say, I am not abovea trashy, unauthorized
biography.
I read one on Kate Moss yearsago.
And if her brother were topublish one, I'd probably read
it as well.
You know?
So I'm not, I'm not above these.
(11:30):
Definitely not.
Anne Sampson (11:32):
I think I'm with both of you.
I think Jamie Lynn, I'm probablynot going to read because I
think it, it falls into thistrap that happens with a lot of
celebrity memoirs where all thejuicy bits just get put up on US
Weekly, and then you don'treally need to read the whole
book because most of it's there.
One celebrity memoir Idefinitely want to read though--
and this is for anyone who's aReal Housewives fan-- is Kim
(11:54):
Richards, because...
Claire Cavanagh (11:56):
Yes.
Anne Sampson (11:56):
Kim Richards is the sister of Kyle Richards,
who's also on the RealHousewives of Beverly Hills and
Kathy Hilton, Paris Hilton'smother.
And they all grew up as childstars or particularly Kim was
the child star.
She really carried that family.
And there was a big falling outa couple years ago when Kyle
produced like a semiautobiographical television show
(12:17):
about their experience growingup.
And they've talked about likegoing to Studio 54 with their
mother when they were liketeenagers, quite young
teenagers.
So I think Kim has just livedthis really wild, incredible
life.
And I can't wait to read aboutit.
And I know she's gonna talkabout her sisters, so.
Claire Cavanagh (12:33):
There was supposed to be one, but I've
heard that it is since canceled.
Anne Sampson (12:35):
I think it's coming out.
I checked online today.
And Amazon has it coming out inlike September or something, so.
Kathryn Willms (12:42):
Oh, fantastic.
I can't--
Anne Sampson (12:43):
I think it's getting pushed back, so.
Claire Cavanagh (12:47):
Okay.
Kathryn Willms (12:47):
So we'll see,
Claire Cavanagh (12:47):
But I am with you on that one and maybe we
will have a later episode onthat.
Anne Sampson (12:51):
Yes.
Oh yeah.
A hundred percent.
We'll be back when that onecomes out.
All right.
Thanks both.
That was a lot of fun.
Claire Cavanagh (12:58):
Thanks Anne.
Kathryn Willms (12:59):
That was great, Anne! Thanks so much.
Sam Hiyate (13:13):
Okay.
Trigger warning.
We're about to talk abouttrigger warnings, which are
becoming big in books in notonly how they're being taught,
but because they're alsocultural products available to
consumers that may-- and indeedshould-- provoke strong emotion.
This is a hot button issue,especially after some opinions
(13:34):
last year came out askingwhether trigger warnings really
work.
To set up our panel.
here is an opinion piece fromTRF executive editor, Diana
Terrana, after which our panelof author Andrew Kaufman and
agent Natalie Kimber willdiscuss, with me.
Diane Terrana (13:56):
England is making today's editorial, Trigger
Happy, too easy-- way too easy.
The University of North Hamptonslapped a trigger warning on
Orwell's 1984, a novel thatdramatizes the dangers of
censorship and thought police.
And the University of Salford isworried that Jane Eyre and Great
Expectations will cause theirstudents distress.
(14:20):
When I grew up Bronte andDickens were part of the
childhood reading canon, I readand loved both those novels
before I turned 12, just saying.
So now I'm going to list fivereasons to rethink trigger
warnings.
One, they are so inclusive,they're meaningless.
Take the University of Reading's2021 list.
(14:42):
It includes pregnancy andchildbirth.
Students are triggered bypregnancy and childbirth.
Worse, professors have toaccommodate them with trigger
warnings and an adjustment ofcourse content, if needed.
Wow.
What's next to help these frailbeings?
Will pregnant women be bannedfrom the classroom?
(15:04):
Pregnant women have been bannedfrom public life before.
.
Two, this triviality mocksvictims of genuine tragedy.
The parent whose child has died,the family whose village was
bombed, the kids whose parentswere murdered-- are not, not in
the same category as those ofyou traumatized by the
(15:24):
well-known trigger, smoking.
Three, this trigger warningcount as elitist.
Take the popular eatingdisorder.
Why is it special?
Why is it on everybody's list?
All psychiatric orders causesuffering.
Be egalitarian.
Get out the DSM five, a 947 pagemanual, that itemizes mental
(15:48):
disorders, then add each one toeverybody's list.
Four.
There is an anti-feminist femalefactor.
Trigger warnings began appearingon feminist websites and in
gender studies classes circa2000, hence were slanted to
girls and women.
Harvard law professor JeanieSuit Gerson has written about
female students too triggered toattend classes on rape law.
(16:12):
So instead of prosecutingrapists, these young women are
plugging their ears and sayingLA LA LA LA LA LA LA.
Why?
Why are we resurrecting theVictorian fainting lady?
A hundred years of fighting theconcept that women are weak and
unsuited for public life.
And now we're actually trying toprove it's true.
And finally, Five-- there's anunpleasant performative aspect,
(16:35):
some trigger happy individualstake out their sensitivities,
polish them up and put them ondisplay like trophies.
Proof that they are gentler andmore virtuous than those of us
who don't act out when we'retriggered.
And don't insist on constantpublic acknowledgement that we,
like all sentient beingseverywhere, suffer.
(16:56):
Thanks for listening or yellingat your computer, whichever
happened.
Sam Hiyate (17:02):
And with that editorial, I'm going to
introduce the trigger happypanel today of starring all your
favourite Rights Factory people.
So starting with Diane.
Diane Terrana (17:13):
Hello.
Sam Hiyate (17:14):
Welcome.
Natalie Kimber.
Natalie Kimber (17:17):
Hi.
Sam Hiyate (17:19):
And stepping from behind the producer seat here at
the Rights Fa-- oh, the AgentProvocateur podcast, we have
Andrew Kaufman stepping in as awriter and thinker in his own
right.
Andrew Kaufman (17:32):
Hey Sam, how are you?
Sam Hiyate (17:33):
Hey, good to see you, man.
So, Diane, there's lots todecompress there.
The Victorian fainting lady isinteresting.
The fact that books, following,I guess, in other kind of
cultural products, books arebeing given trigger warnings.
Let's start with Natalie,because you're, kind of in the
(17:56):
middle here, I think betweenAndrew and Diane.
What's your thinking abouttrigger warnings?
Natalie Kimber (18:01):
I heard you echo that term, the fainting
Victorian lady or the Victorianfainting lady, something like
that.
And that leads me to the conceptthat gets thrown around a lot in
these conversations, which isthat of fragility, as if it's
something to be avoided.
I think fragility is a termthat's misplaced.
When what we're really talkingabout is vulnerability.
I keep hearing that word, youknow, in these discussions when,
(18:26):
and I think really, as far asstudents go, as far as
readership goes, when is enoughenough?
We already ask youth, who aregrowing up in this crumbling
world, late stage capitalism tobe stronger, stronger, and
stronger all the time.
We de-emphasize personal humanemotions all the time for what?
Usually, it's for profit.
(18:46):
Trigger warnings, just byexisting, apart from how much a
person chooses to read orconsume content after them.
They come from a place ofconsideration and care.
That's a great place to start inany interaction.
An analogy I want to bring intothis is something that deals
with extreme trauma, or, youknow, personal trauma or direct
(19:09):
experience, in peace makingsettings and dialogue sessions,
it seeks to build trust and forthe path to reconciliation in
war conflict zones, et cetera.
The first step to establishingthat, you know, that atmosphere
in which you can build trust is,um, establishing human empathy,
acknowledging fragility,acknowledging trauma, and
(19:32):
establishing a safe space forexpression and listening.
Trigger warnings for us asreaders actually have a similar
function.
They establish care for thereader from the jump.
And I think that's why they'reimportant.
Sam Hiyate (19:44):
Wow.
Okay.
That sounds awesome.
The idea of fragility versusvulnerability is a good point.
Andrew, let's move to you.
So vulnerability, what do youmake of that?
Andrew Kaufman (19:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's what it's all about
and I feel like, so I'm all fortrigger warnings.
I think they should be oneverything.
I literally think that's theleast we can do.
And so I have two points.
One it's like what we are.
So what is considered being toosensitive, being too vulnerable
has been moving for as long asI've been alive.
(20:19):
Right?
So there's like a whole bunch ofqueer culture.
There's a whole bunch of likefeminist rights who, which in
the seventies and before, wouldbe, would you know-- where we
think the bar is now-- has moveda lot.
And I feel like, to go againsttrigger warnings is to stop that
movement to a really moresensitive, open place.
(20:42):
And then the other thing I wouldsay is that it's like, I feel
like trigger warnings, get a badrap because people interpret
them as avoidance.
It's like, if I'm reading a bookor I'm oh, looking through a
book and I see a triggerwarning, oh, I'm gonna put that
book down.
And I don't think that's howtrigger warnings work at all.
I feel like trigger warnings.
I see that as like,"All right,well, I know that's coming,"
(21:02):
right.
So it doesn't just take me bysurprise.
It doesn't like, just like, oh,all, you know, I did not think I
was gonna have to deal with thattoday.
And people who are going throughmajor trauma, it's like, and
that's a really good thing.
Right.
So I don't understand thehesitation at all.
Sam Hiyate (21:20):
So speaking about people going through trauma, I
think we, we now can say safelythat that's everybody, all the
time.
Andrew Kaufman (21:28):
No, but that's not fair at all.
Right?
Because there's people who aregoing through major trauma, that
there are people that otherpeople aren't.
And I mean, I acknowledge thateveryone is working through
trauma.
The biggest trauma they've everhad, right.
Everyone has the biggest traumaby definition that they've ever
had.
But I don't think that reallyacknowledges that there are
(21:49):
people going through major,major stuff on the scale.
Natalie Kimber (21:53):
I think that we can mostly agree that trauma
disproportionately affects, thepoor, the oppressed and
marginalized people.
And these are all the samepeople that we want to increase
our readership with.
So doing something that offersthem a safer space is a better
way to, you know, bring them inand give them more books, give
(22:14):
them more topics.
Another thing is that I alwaysam reading any kind of articles
about this-- one came out fromthe new Yorker last fall.
Another one came out from Vox.
Of t he sort of counterintuitiveideas behind why not to have
trigger warnings.
A lot of them say this idea thattrigger warnings don't lessen
(22:36):
the traumatic response forpeople.
So you can be warned about, youknow, sensitive content.
And then when you come across,it, it doesn't, you know,
lessen, however you're gonnarespond to it.
And in that case, I just thinkthat doesn't mean that we just
like take it out altogether.
You know, I think it still has aplace.
(22:56):
Andrew, you mentioned it, youknow, just knowing i t, i n not
having that surprise factor, is,you know, is a good reason.
Andrew Kaufman (23:06):
Yeah.
I think Diane, I think we needto speak, and hear from Diane
for a second-- before that, Ijust wanna say it's like, for
me, I mean, I'm, I'm personallyworking through a pretty major
tragedy.
I don't really want to talkabout it, at all.
But I, you know, it's like, Ithink everyone here knows that
I'm going through this thing.
And when I have, when I'mconsuming culture and an episode
(23:29):
that is like the episode I'veexperienced comes up.
If I know it's coming, then Iknow to get my, you know, my
methods of recovery, and allthat sort of stuff.
You know?
So it's like, I think of trauma,like, like a hot water burn
where the sooner you can getcold water on it, the less
intense it's going to be.
(23:50):
And so if I have a triggerwarning, then it's sort of
metaphorically, like I'm gonnaget, you know, the bucket of
cold water out.
So I know when to use it, doesthat make any sense?
Diane Terrana (24:00):
Absolutely.
I would only say, I distinguishin my editorial between people
who are going through majortrauma as you are Andrew, and
the vast hoards who want to beknown for being traumatized, the
people who are traumatized bysmoking, the people who read a
book and are traumatized if theycome across a pregnant woman.
(24:22):
I mean, at some point that justmakes a mockery of real trauma,
as I said, and it makes thewhole concept of trigger
warnings absurd.
Natalie Kimber (24:32):
But so I think what you're talking about are
like extreme extreme cases orsort of outliers on the spectrum
of what we would call a triggerwarning.
Diane Terrana (24:40):
I wish.
Kathryn Willms (24:41):
I really don't think that books particularly
are giving trigger warnings forpregnancy or childbirth.
Diane Terrana (24:49):
They are.
They totally are-- i n theUniversity of Reading if you are
teaching a book or in a lecture.
Natalie Kimber (24:55):
But you're talking about pedagogy and
teaching not--
Diane Terrana (24:58):
But, uh, it--
Natalie Kimber (24:59):
Putting them in the front of books.
Diane Terrana (25:00):
Natalie, how long is it going to be?
Because now professors have topoint out to their students,
trigger warning, there's apregnant character in this book
or, we're discussing, I don'tknow, hopefully it's not medical
school and we don't have peoplefainting at the OB lesson.
But how long since that isencrypted now in a university's
(25:23):
reading trigger list before...?
Natalie Kimber (25:25):
So if you-- but let's just take that pregnancy
or childbirth.
If that is something that is ona university list, is it better
for somebody to be like, oh,well, that's just, that's not
really a thing.
You can't really be triggered bypregnancy or childbirth or
about, you know, the few peoplethat may actually be triggered
by it.
Is it better to have it there?
Diane Terrana (25:46):
No.
Kathryn Willms (25:47):
When it just offends a few people.
Diane Terrana (25:49):
No.
Natalie Kimber (25:49):
For the rest of us, we're just like, oh, who
cares?
Diane Terrana (25:52):
It's absolutely misogynistic.
Natalie Kimber (25:55):
Just for the, the last few, the few tiny
people.
If it's there, it's probablythere for a reason.
And rather than just, you know,the people that are offended by
it or don't really agree, arethey actually hurt being
offended or not really agreeing?
Diane Terrana (26:08):
Because I find it misogynistic.
I am very hurt and outraged byit.
Sam Hiyate (26:13):
So guys, are you saying, Are you saying that--
Natalie Kimber (26:14):
They're triggered by the trigger
warning?
Diane Terrana (26:17):
I'm triggered by the-- no, I'm outraged by the
fact that people get to say, Idon't want to hear or be around
or see pregnancy or childbirth.
How long before pregnant womenaren't allowed back into public
life, because there was a timewhen they weren't.
You couldn't be a pregnantteacher, you couldn't work if
you were pregnant.
I mean, it's hard.
Natalie Kimber (26:36):
Cause I think we're confusing why trigger
warnings are existing?
You're talking about them beingused to then ban certain
identities or characteristics,or.
Diane Terrana (26:47):
I'm saying we can --
Natalie Kimber (26:48):
Or circumstances from public life, which is not
what trigger warnings are therefor.
Diane Terrana (26:53):
It's not what they started out as, but how
long before, since professorsnow have to-- I can't even
imagine I was a high schoolEnglish teacher-- I can't even
imagine how I would teach anovel, any of the novels I ever
taught under these restrictions,how the list on the board...
Natalie Kimber (27:07):
You can still teach it and you can still show
the material and you can still,you know, have a robust
conversation about it.
To say that something istriggering is to say that it
could provoke sensitivity.
Not that the triggering thinginvolves an identity that is
wrong or that involves, youknow, needing to be banned from
society.
Diane Terrana (27:28):
Natalie, people don't have to go to classes if
they're going to be sotriggered, like what I mean
really address.
Natalie Kimber (27:35):
And sometimes I think we need to decide if that
is better for the person who'snot going to the class or not.
Because I think in studies withclassrooms, it's shown that the
students that are going to usethat as an excuse are very few
and far between.
Now in the case, I know youbrought up in your argument.
Diane Terrana (27:55):
The law school.
Natalie Kimber (27:56):
That certain law students are, allowed to not
take the classes on rapeprosecution.
And if they're triggered bythat.
In the spectrum of law, if youdon't want to work in, you know,
on rape cases and you don't, youknow, that's not where you wanna
work in your practice, thenmaybe you shouldn't have to take
(28:17):
that class.
If it's something that isproblem for you.
It's kind of, it's kind ofsaying how many people are going
to take advantage of it, and useit, for their leisure or some
other, you know, stupid reason.
And then versus how many peopleare actually gonna benefit from
it.
Diane Terrana (28:32):
I'm not suggesting that people are going
to use it as an excuse.
I'm saying we're creating awhole generation of people who
are being encouraged to polishup that fragile part of
themselves and to opt out ofpublic life.
Now, can you imagine, you'resaying law students who are
offended by rape law, shouldn'thave to take it.
Well, half of law-- or more-- isabout crime.
(28:53):
It's tough stuff.
Prosecutors and defense lawyersdeal with tough, tough stuff
every day.
Should medical students beallowed out of certain classes,
out of certain areas ofknowledge, because they're only
gonna be a family physician orsay a radiologist because
they're triggered.
Natalie Kimber (29:08):
I'm not sure they should, but I also think
that those are really extremeexamples.
When what we're talking about isless common.
You know, what we're talkingabout are ideas of trauma that
are much more, consensus, like,you know, suicide, murder.
Sam Hiyate (29:27):
Smoking etcetera.
Diane Terrana (29:29):
Yes.
Smoking.
Andrew Kaufman (29:30):
I know, but there's smoking.
Natalie Kimber (29:30):
Grocery stores...
Andrew Kaufman (29:31):
But wait a second, lemme just ask.
Natalie Kimber (29:32):
Spongebob Squarepants.
Who knows?
Andrew Kaufman (29:35):
Let me just ask this question.
It's like, Diane, are youworried that like, I like
trigger warnings because I feellike they're making our society
more inclusive.
But you're worried that thatinclusive or that sensitivity is
actually making our societyworse.
Is that your argument?
Diane Terrana (29:54):
Well, I would say it's very bad for women.
It is bringing back theVictorian fainting lady, the
woman who fainted at the slightprovocation, languishing on her
divan, with her smelling salts.
Andrew Kaufman (30:04):
But you're talking about lawyers and rapes.
Natalie Kimber (30:06):
Extreme.
Andrew Kaufman (30:06):
Like that's-- you're making-- I feel like,
like if you're saying thattrigger warnings may make the
society too sensitive and that'sgoing to take us backwards.
I mean, that's an argument and Ican hear that.
Is that the argument you'remaking?
Diane Terrana (30:22):
Not sensitive, Andrew, I'm saying you can be
sensitive.
I believe I am a genuinelysensitive person.
I'm triggered by many things andI don't go around insisting
people bow down to that in frontof me.
I'm saying--
Kathryn Willms (30:35):
And that's your right to believe that.
I'm saying it makes this more--
Andrew Kaufman (30:37):
Why is that?
If there's a piece of text atthe front of the book says,"Hey,
anyone who gets upset by thisidea, just know it's in here."
Like, how does that--
Diane Terrana (30:48):
Well.
Kathryn Willms (30:48):
How does that 17 words affect you?
Diane Terrana (30:50):
Because they're getting longer and longer, and
they're getting more inclusiveand I would say more absurd.
And in the end, I think it'sjust kind of a bonkers idea.
And it's leading to a kind ofpreciousness, like fragility is
being lifted up and, and beingtough a little bit tough and
(31:11):
saying, yes, this is life.
Everybody bloody suffers in it.
And let's not have students getout of law school.
Let's not have students insist.
So the Jane Eyre school--
Natalie Kimber (31:21):
They still have to take the classes and
graduate.
Diane Terrana (31:23):
Hear what the professors have to do here.
I'll just tell you-- I was ateacher.
So I'm going, are you kiddingme?
They have to open up theirclassrooms early and allow those
students who might be sooffended by books.
I read as a child, to come inand work it out with the
professor.
So a professor couldtheoretically have 15 students
come in each one 10 minutes.
How much time is she dedicating-- or he dedicating-- to, you
(31:46):
know, working out their issueswith Jane Eyre or Great
Expectations.
Natalie Kimber (31:51):
I think we all know that those few, that those
students are going to be veryfew in number.
Diane Terrana (31:58):
I would say one is too many as a teacher.
That would be just too many.
Natalie Kimber (32:02):
It's too many?
One is too many to give 10minutes of time to be
compassionate to?
Diane Terrana (32:09):
About Jane Eyre or Great Expectations, you know,
teachers.
And thank God they're notfragile have to work with
students who come to schooltraumatized every day by real
life things.
And a lot of their time goes to-- to that-- not to, you know,
issues in books, they're readingliterature does reflect the
(32:29):
world and conflict and problems.
Natalie Kimber (32:32):
I would argue that students are faced with
having to be extreme, you know,more tough, having to go by all
kinds of unrealistic standards.
When they walk into a class,then they're just being catered
to, I think that's, that balanceis, you know, Ugh, I think that
balance heavily favours thestudents having to pull more out
(32:57):
of themselves than they shouldbe expected to long before.
We're just coddling them.
Diane Terrana (33:02):
Let me ask you this.
I taught Toni Morrison.
I taught in a private school, soI was able to put the books I
loved on my course list.
And I taught Toni Morrison inall of my English classes.
Now, those books are as tough asthey come.
They have some of the mostfrightful things imaginable in
the world, in them.
If I were to follow sort of therules at the Reading University
(33:24):
or the university that's, thatdid Jane Eyre and Great
Expectations, I would have tohave-- the blackboard would be
covered.
I would get there an hour earlyand cover the Blackboard or
whiteboard with the list ofpossible triggers in a book.
And then I would have to open myclassroom to everybody who
wanted to talk about it.
Now, did I have people coming totalk to me about the book after
(33:48):
they read it or difficultscenes?
Normally we talk those throughin class, as a group of people
because we're studyingliterature, which is tough
stuff.
Natalie Kimber (33:57):
And a lot of classes still have the class
discussion and that studentsaren't just being allowed to
completely opt out.
They still have to handle studyguides and they have to make up
that time.
There's almost never a casewhere, because of a trigger
warning, a student is just, youknow, doesn't have to do any
work at all.
Diane Terrana (34:14):
And so, Natalie, I don't know how you know that
actually, but I don't knowwhether it's true or not, but so
can I ask you, are you guys bothhappy with smoking as a trigger
warning?
Downtown Abby had triggerwarnings.
This is what got me going twoyears ago.
I was watching Downtown Abby.
I'd seen it before.
And the trigger warnings came on-- Language Smoking and Sexual
Violence-- well there was somesexual violence, but I'm looking
(34:37):
at language and smoking--smoking.
There are people who are beingcoddled because they're
triggered by smoking.
Please.
And the language.
Andrew Kaufman (34:45):
So if somebody who wants to stop smoking is
being coddled.
Diane Terrana (34:48):
Oh, come on, Andrew.
Andrew Kaufman (34:49):
I think there's such a judgment in your words.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to say it like that,but it's like, here's what I--
so I've got a little program onmy computer and it's one of
those add-on programs.
And anytime the word"politicallycorrect" comes up in anything,
it changes it, the text, toread,"caring about the feelings
(35:10):
of others." And it's like, it'samazing because you always hear
all these people saying,"Oh, Idon't want to be politically
correct." And then the textsays,"I don't want to be caring
about the feelings of others."And I really feel like that's
what it is.
I feel, I'm putting words inyour mouth right now-- I feel
like this is the politicallycorrect argument.
(35:31):
And I feel like, you know what,"politically correct" just means
that you're caring about otherpeople and what could happen and
what is wrong with that?
Diane Terrana (35:40):
Well, do you see any boundaries to it because you
can freely associate anything.
So the person who--
Andrew Kaufman (35:45):
If you're asking me, is it going to get abused?
I'm gonna say yes.
Diane Terrana (35:48):
No, I wasn't saying that I'm saying.
Andrew Kaufman (35:49):
Totally going to get abused.
Diane Terrana (35:50):
Do you believe.
Andrew Kaufman (35:51):
It's gonna get taken too far?
Absolutely.
Kathryn Willms (35:54):
And you're fine with that.
Who are going to g ame thesystem?
One hundred percent.
Diane Terrana (35:57):
And you have no issue with it being taken like,
'cause you could free associateto anything disturbs you,
traumatizes, you reminds you ofsomething.
Right?
So smoking...
Andrew Kaufman (36:08):
A h undred p ercent.
Kathryn Willms (36:09):
Language-- and this is Downton Abby, the
language by the way.
And the language was like"Damn,""Blasted".
Andrew Kaufman (36:13):
Yeah, we could take it to so many places and
I'm sure it's going to, and thenit's going to get pulled back.
It's a pendulum.
Sam Hiyate (36:20):
Sorry to interrupt Andrew.
Here's a question.
So are we worried at all?
Like what does this mean in thelong run?
Because, does it mean thateventually there'll be
censorship in that people willsay,"Oh, I don't want-- these
are major trigger things.
I'm not going to put them in mystory." Is that something you
think could happen?
Diane Terrana (36:36):
And university professors are not going to put
things on their courses.
Absolutely.
Andrew Kaufman (36:40):
Oh, worse than that.
And I already know examples ofthis, like the politically
climate we're in right now.
There are certain things that--I mean, you guys as agents must
know this as well, that are justare not marketable right now.
There's certain stories, certainwriters certain takes-- right?
So it's like, it is thepolitically, the climate that
(37:00):
trigger warnings is that isgenerating trigger warnings is
shaping the economics ofpublishing.
No doubt.
And I'm not a big fan of that.
I really wish that wasn'thappening.
I think that is bad.
I just don't think that anyreaction's gonna produce a
reaction.
Right.
So now we're in a place wherewe're trying to say, yeah, this
(37:20):
stuff is messed up.
We should like, let's lean intothe people who get messed up by
this.
So I'm-- so yeah.
Is that, does that have fallout?
Is that going to have areaction?
Is there gonna be a shadow tothat movement?
100%.
Diane Terrana (37:35):
So,
Andrew Kaufman (37:35):
And then it's going to swing back.
Diane Terrana (37:37):
Maybe, maybe.
Can I just ask you this.
So is there, in the same waythat I will look at people who
are physically ill, say, and I'mwilling to say that the kid with
metastatic cancer is suffering ahundred million times more than
the person with a head cold, nomatter how much head cold person
complains.
Is there not a problem in doingthat, in saying, that the person
(37:59):
with the head called feels likethey're suffering as Natalie was
saying, they feel like they havetrauma.
And yet, so we're supposed tolevel-- put their trauma at the
same level-- we put, you know,very tragic trauma.
Andrew Kaufman (38:15):
I don't see that happening.
I don't see it.
I don't see that happening now.
I don't see that happening inthe future.
Natalie Kimber (38:19):
I also think it deserves to be said that you
don't have to have directexperience with trauma to want a
trigger warning or contentwarning,
Diane Terrana (38:29):
Should newspapers have trigger warnings?
You would need a newspaper infront of the newspaper to do
that, right?
Sam Hiyate (38:36):
Well, this is where we're getting into this meta
level.
I don't know if you guys knowthe Borges story about the map,
the country of mapmakers whowere so obsessed with making
perfect maps, eventually theygrew them and grew them and grew
them.
So the maps were the same sizeas the topography that they
representing.
So I worry that at some point,the trigger warnings will be the
(38:59):
same length as the literaryproduct.
Andrew Kaufman (39:02):
But that's also assuming that everyone's an
idiot, right?
And it's like, let's not assumethat.
Diane Terrana (39:07):
Really?
Andrew Kaufman (39:07):
Let's assume that readers are smart people.
Let's assume that publishers aresmart people.
Let's-- I will overly admit thatthere's some overreaction going
on for sure.
And let's just admit-- or let'shope-- that we're all smart
enough in this industry that wewill get a handle on it.
And in 10 years time, thetrigger warnings will only be
(39:30):
there for the really intensestuff that messes people up.
Sam Hiyate (39:34):
That's a great, I think a great mandate.
And I think we should end herebecause I feel like we could go
on for days and I think we'reout of time.
So, yeah, maybe final thoughts.
Everybody's looking at me.
Diane Terrana (39:45):
So I'm just saying, so Andrew, you do think
some things, some triggerwarnings are ridiculous, then.
Andrew Kaufman (39:51):
Yeah.
In the context of right now, I'mnot gonna say to stop anything.
Because I feel like the ideaisn't strong enough.
I think the idea has to takeroot and then, then we can, then
we can prune it back.
And I don't think it's takenroot.
So it's like, I feel like partof whether where this society is
right now, is that we have tolike really let the pendulum
swing over and let these ideasgain some, some toe hold, so
(40:15):
that they're not just gonna betaken out.
So yes.
That's where I am.
That's my final thought too,Sam.
Sam Hiyate (40:21):
Okay, great.
That's a good final thought thatwe're in the early stages of
what this all means for culture.
Natalie, a final thought fromyou.
Natalie Kimber (40:28):
Yeah, sure.
I think that it's wrong to saywe won't make time for people
and we shouldn't have to maketime for people's
vulnerabilities, or we shouldn'thave to make space to help
people feel safe.
Trigger warnings are ineffectiveif they don't offer a choice to
opt out.
Now in the classroom setting, itdoesn't mean students always get
(40:49):
to opt out.
Oftentimes they're just there,as you know,"This is what we're
gonna talk about today, butwe're still going to talk about
it." They're also doing adisservice if books or content
is banned or categorized orclassified because of them,
which, then in that case, Iagree with you, Diane, because
if we are going to classifybooks or ban books, because they
(41:10):
have pregnant women, then ofcourse we're going in the wrong
direction.
But I do think that that'sextreme.
I think trigger warnings existto preserve freedom of speech
and to not supportcategorization that cancels
content.
And I think that overall, Imean, we don't get to choose our
(41:31):
memories, especially traumaticmemories.
And this is about making timeand giving space for people to
feel safe.
Sam Hiyate (41:40):
Okay.
Well, thanks everybody.
I feel like it's a good thing weall work together and we're all
on Zoom here because thingsdidn't lead to fisticuffs, and
we're all one(still) one greathappy family.
I can still feel the love,despite the minor disagreements
-- or major disagreements--today.
Thanks everybody.
Diane Terrana (41:57):
Thank you.
Good to see you guys.
Natalie Kimber (41:59):
Thanks.
Andrew Kaufman (42:00):
Bye.
Bye everybody.
Diane Terrana (42:01):
Good to talk to you guys.
Sam Hiyate (42:08):
That's our show, folks.
Thanks so much.
If you could do us a favour.
If you like us, please share uson your socials and comment.
Review us.
Do whatever you want.
But, good or bad, we want tohear it all.
Today.
I want to thank all of ourpanelists and especially Andrew
(42:30):
Kaufman, for stepping up frombehind the microphones to talk
about trigger warning, as aguest.
We recognize that triggerwarnings are an intense subject
and we'd love to hear youropinion.
Feel free to click on thecontact link on our website at
therightsfactory.
com or reach u s via our socialsand send us your thoughts.
Thanks again for listening.
(42:50):
See you next week, where we'llrevisit the all important
question o f a uthor platform.
T ake c are.
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