February 8, 2022 • 38 mins
This week is all about sales and promotion. First, a panel on pandemic book promotion with author Lee Matthew Goldberg and Senior Digital Marketing Manager for Harlequin, Lindsey Reeder, moderated by TRF's own Brand Manager, Anne Sampson. Author Michelle Kim calls in to read a letter, and in our continuing in-house panels, agents Tasneem Motala, Kathryn Willms and Sam Hiyate discuss author platforms, moderated by Anne Sampson.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Hiyate (00:06):
Hi, everyone, welcome to season two, episode
four of Agent Provocateur.
I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief AgentProvocateur at TRF, and today's
episode is all about the mostimportant thing in the
publishing world.
Well, the second most-- after weget you a book deal-- and that's
making sales.
(00:29):
First, we take a look at how thepandemic has changed book
promotion, and how many of thesenew aspects will stick around
long after the virus itself.
Anne Sampson & Panelists (00:39):
I think we all miss the booze of
in-person book events.
That's like one of the perks,right?
Totally.
Sam Hiyate (00:47):
Then we have a panel discussion about how important
it is for an author to haveplatform.
Kathryn Willms (00:53):
No one will ever find your book, unless you do
exactly what we're talking aboutin this podcast-- actively sell
that book to your connections,make more connections, then sell
them the book.
Sam Hiyate (01:21):
When the pandemic hit in early 2020, book
publicists and marketersscrambled overnight to
re-strategize book promotion.
Suddenly book launches,in-person media interviews and
signings-- all traditional tentpolls of book promotion--
weren't possible.
Two years later, it's time totake a look at what we've
(01:42):
learned about book marketing andpromotion during a pandemic.
And see what, if any, of thesenew strategies are going to
stick around.
Anne Sampson (01:54):
Today, I'm joined by Lindsay Reeder, senior
digital marketing manager atHarlequin.
Hi Lindsay.
Lindsey Reeder (01:59):
Hi, so nice to be here.
Anne Sampson (02:01):
And I'm also joined by author Lee Matthew
Goldberg, whose newest bookVanish Me, the final book in his
Runaway Train trilogy will bepublished on February 10th.
Hi Lee.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (02:11):
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
I'm happy to be a part of it.
Anne Sampson (02:14):
Well, thank you both for being here.
And I'm Anne Sampson, brandmanager at The Rights Factory.
However, in a previous life, Iwas a book publicist and I
remember thinking at thebeginning of the pandemic, Oh
man, I am so glad that this isnot my job anymore.
Because I know how much planninggoes into the promotion of a
(02:35):
book and into the launch of abook.
And I'm sure it was sodevastating to see a lot of
those plans just kind of flushedaway.
So maybe I'll start with you,Lindsey, because as a digital
marketing manager, I'm sure alot of eyes were pointed at you
when that happened.
So what was that pivot like foryou?
Lindsey Reeder (02:53):
It was extreme, uh period.
Um, I had just come into thisrole.
Um, in my previous life, I wasat Penguin Random House and had
just started, didn't know anyonereally.
I'd only been at the company forfour months and they said, We'll
come back in two weeks, justhead home and we'll figure it
out.
And then the world stopped andeverybody was looking at digital
(03:13):
marketing to say, What are wedoing?
How are we making it different?
How do we keep book sales going?
And there were so manyconversations and meanwhile, the
publicity team is cancelingeverything and all of that money
is lost.
And a lot of money was shiftingover to our team in particular
to kind of exemplify, geteverybody talking about all of
(03:35):
that.
So it was just unlike anythingI've ever been a part of before,
if I'm being honest, in 14 yearsin publishing.
It was crazy.
Anne Sampson (03:44):
And so Lee, you've had several books published kind
of both before and during thepandemic.
What kind of changes did younotice, with the promotion of
your books?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (03:54):
Yeah, I mean, huge changes.
So with Vanish Me coming outnext week, it'll be my sixth
book that I put out during thispandemic.
So I feel like I kind of knowwhat's going on and how to
promote a little bit.
And yeah, everything was fullyvirtual, but in all honesty,
like I had a book with StMartins.
(04:14):
They were happy that I did atour, but everything came out of
my pocket.
I was paying for the hotel andthe plane and I really booked
everything.
And how many sales did thatreally add to, you know, 30
people would show up to anevent, 40 people.
So I've really kind ofcapitalized on virtual.
I've had outside publicists,I've done a ton of virtual tours
(04:35):
for all my books.
And I've kind of learned likewhat works and what doesn't.
Like, everything with thisindustry and this career, I
throw everything at the wall andI see what sticks and basically
what doesn't.
And honestly a lot has reallystuck during the pandemic in
terms of promotion.
And I feel like I'll use that,even, hopefully when we're out
of this and we actually could bein person again, touring-- I'll
(04:58):
still do virtual.
Anne Sampson (04:59):
Great.
Um, so do you think this, likemaybe the shift to online events
has opened you up Lee, to morereaders to your book?
Like people that you wouldn'thave been able to reach before
with online events?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (05:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've focused a lot also on likeInstagram.
And I have an outside publicist.
He's like a teen, he's like akid.
Like I pay him to just find meInsta followers and send the
book out to them and then theypromote it and it works great.
Sometimes 200 people respond,300 people, 400 people.
It was never really something Ihad thought to really do before.
(05:35):
And then in addition, I run areading series, Guerrilla Lit
reading series.
Obviously we couldn't do that inperson.
We've done that virtual thewhole time.
And what was great about that,is we weren't only taking
authors from New York City whereI am.
We had authors from London andsort of all over the place that
were able to participate aswell.
And in the future we'll alwayskeep it hybrid.
(05:56):
So we'll be able to kind of havehopefully in person, but we
also, in March, when we come upagain, we'll have an author
who's, you know, far away aswell to be able to participate.
Anne Sampson (06:08):
And what about you, Lindsey?
Do you think you've been able todraw on more readers because you
work in Canada and the U.S.,right?
For your books?
Lindsey Reeder (06:15):
That's correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
It was originally quite hardbecause I think every author
that I've worked with was goingout and doing tons of free
things.
And from a publisher'sperspective, we're looking at it
kind of overall of like how dowe make a book sale?
And they're giving away so muchcontent for free because
everything had-- the ground hadfallen out from underneath them.
(06:37):
So they were like, I gotta dosomething.
I'm home.
I'll just jump on Instagramlive.
And I don't know if you guysremember at the like start of
the pandemic every time youopened Instagram, there was like
eight lives happening and nowthere's only one, but we're back
to that.
But I do, I think thatthe big question that we as a
publisher were having, wastalking about how do we make
sales, how do we ticket theseevents?
(06:59):
And it feels different thanjoining your exercise class for
free every night, you know,those kinds of things.
So how could we make it anexperience 2.0, as opposed to
something you could watch forfree?
And I think that was a big partof the conversations we were
having overall.
Anne Sampson (07:16):
So how do you make an experience out of something
online?
Lindsey Reeder (07:19):
There's different ways.
We've done a couple of things.
And Lee, you might havedifferent experiences too, but
we did a couple of, a lot of,signings, book plates and things
like that and going outpackages, but that gets very
costly, very quickly.
Things like that.
We had one event that, it wasfor Mother's Day and you could
bring your mom or someone that'slike a mom in your life, to come
(07:43):
and meet three differentauthors.
And the ticket was like 15 bucksor something like that.
And then somebody got a chanceto win all three books at the
end.
Things like that, something thatwas more of an experience, but
then there's that, and I'm surewe'll probably touch on this,
but that fatigue, that Zoomfatigue.
I've done this, I've sat ineight hours of meetings all day
and now I'm on Zoom at night.
(08:03):
Like it was, there was exhausttoo.
So it was that ebb and flow oftrying to figure out what was
different.
And why would someone show up?
Anne Sampson (08:11):
So Lee, it sounds like you're very happy with the
online events.
Would you even want to go backto in-person or how are you...?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (08:18):
Oh yeah, no, I miss in-person so much.
Like, I'm over Zoom.
You know, what I meant more isto just find some kind of middle
ground and hybrid.
Um, you know, and especially ifyou're not an author, who's like
an A-list author, that has somuch marketing money behind
them.
You know, in all honesty, it'slike, how much are you really
(08:40):
doing outside of virtual anyway?
So you know, for an author likemyself until I reach that level,
hopefully, yeah.
Like, I think I have-- we'reabout to announce like a five
book series that I have comingout.
So that's all coming out in thesecond half of the year.
And hopefully with that, I'll beable to maybe kind of book some
(09:01):
in-person events because youknow, you miss that feel of like
fans actually coming, friends,family.
Signing books, like just thesmell of books around you.
It doesn't quite compete online.
Honestly.
Lindsey Reeder (09:14):
I would say, and on the readers community, I'll
just speak on behalf of all ofthem.
I think that that appetite forreaders is there too, like on
the flip side, authors want it,but I know the community is--
they miss the experience oftalking to an author, getting
that signature in front of them.
You know, even launch parties.
I miss launch parties.
I know the community misses it.
It feels so special.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (09:34):
Yeah.
Lindsey Reeder (09:34):
I don't think any of this will ever go away
from this industry.
I know like every time there's anew thing-- adult coloring book,
an e-book an audio book, theindustry kind of, it peters out
after a while.
And it's the same thing that weall love and know about books,
which is that consistency ofjust turning the page and
talking to the people that wrotethe words.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (09:52):
So I did a launch party for the first book
in the YA Series, Runaway Train.
And it was just as Delta kind ofhit New York and kind of took
over in the summer.
And I was like, at that, I'mjust going to do it in Central
Park, outside.
Anne Sampson (10:07):
Amazing.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:08):
Friends and family came, we had about
30, 35 people.
There was like a teacher's partygoing on and they gave us all
their booze and food and thenthey bought some of the books.
And it was wonderful.
And it was like, I could feeleven from friends and family who
were, you know, just camebecause they loved me that they
missed, like in person things.
(10:28):
So I feel like there's a waykind of around it in ways, even
if you can't be like in abookstore.
As long as the weather's niceand you have a park nearby,
bring the booze and yeah, youcan have an event.
Lindsey Reeder (10:42):
There's always so much booze.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:43):
There's always so much booze.
I still actually have, they werelike rose in a can.
And they gave me so much.
I'm like, I can't drink that.
Yeah.
I don't even drink, really.
Lindsey Reeder (10:54):
This took a turn
Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:55):
Yeah, it took a turn.
Anne Sampson (10:57):
I think we all miss the booze of in-person book
events.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (11:00):
Yes.
Anne Sampson (11:00):
That's like one of the perks, right.
.
Lindsey Reeder (11:03):
Totally.
Anne Sampson (11:04):
Of publishing events.
So a lot of authors strugglewith self-promotion, especially
online.
Both of you are really active onsocial media.
How do you get over thatinitial, like anxiety, of
putting yourself out there, Lee,do you want to start?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (11:19):
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, at my core I dislikesocial media and I don't enjoy
it.
And it's something as an author,I've just learned to accept and
get over it and try to find whatI enjoy with it.
So when I'm interacting withsomebody who's a reader or in
the industry or my other side,sort of the Hollywood side and
(11:40):
people-- I'm into it.
And you try to kind of balanceyour promotion with, life stuff
and stuff that's not just aboutbooks, so you're not just this
robot.
That's just like, Buy my book,buy my book, buy my book over
and over again.
So it's kind of finding thatmiddle ground.
And I think, you know, thewriter's community on places
(12:01):
like Instagram and Twitter, sosupportive and everybody really
lifts-- there's literally ahashtag#writerslift and it's
purpose is lifting up writers.
So you could find your kind ofpeople on it as much as
possible.
And I would say, do what youfeel comfortable with, you know,
and I don't know, I devote maybelike 20 minutes a day to it.
(12:21):
Like it's not that difficult inall honesty and I'm moving away
from Facebook because that I'mfinding more toxic, and doesn't
really help anything.
And just kind of, you know,people tooting their own horn,
kind of.
Lindsey Reeder (12:35):
Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, like that's
exactly what I always tellauthors.
Do what makes you feel the mostcomfortable.
Going on camera, forcing it?
The second it feels inauthentic,like the community will know,
and then it's forced.
So they know someone asks you todo it-- going to the places
where you feel the mostcomfortable.
I think you even with TikTok inthe pandemic as a whole, I think
(12:56):
every author was like in myinbox and, Should I get on
TikTok?
What do I do on TikTok?
The answer is if you're notready for it, don't do it.
Go where you're comfortable andfind your footing there and
everything else falls intoplace.
You don't have to do everythingbecause you'll start to spread
yourself too thin.
So Lee, I like your, you know,20 minutes, all you need kind of
thing.
And that, in a lot of ways, itcan feel like a part-time job if
(13:20):
you let it.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:20):
Yeah.
Lindsey Reeder (13:21):
But it doesn't have to.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:21):
Yeah.
I think that's great.
TikTok is my next sort of hillthat I'll climb.
Lindsey Reeder (13:28):
Especially with YA books, you have to.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:30):
I know.
I tried and I was doing readingsand I was like, I don't think
that's really what works.
It has to be like quicker and,you know, have a little bit more
like pizazz to it, I guess.
I don't know.
I'm 44 years old.
but yeah, I think it'slike find your niche and, you
know, try to enjoy it as much aspossible because people aren't
(13:52):
stupid and they'll they'll gleanif you're like not into it.
Anne Sampson (13:55):
Yeah.
I think authenticity online isthe one thing people can sniff
out in-- inauthenticity.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm so quickly.
Um, so for both of you, is thereone pandemic change or if you
had to choose one pandemicchange to keep, going into a
kind of post-pandemic world,what would that be in book
promotion?
(14:15):
Lindsay?
Lindsey Reeder (14:16):
Oh, that's such a good question.
I definitely, I'm gonna say twothings really quickly: hybrid
everything.
I think it just takes it to thenext level, and for those people
that aren't able to make it outto New York for an event or to
Toronto, it just opens up thedoor for everybody.
So I love that kind of piece ofit.
It has to be done well, though.
So that's really important.
(14:37):
And then I think the other thingis we've moved really into a
virtual world and it's no longernecessarily like you can't not
know what's going on on theInternet.
So I, as somebody who looksafter a digital marketing team,
I'm so glad that we're havingdifferent conversations now.
And we're not the last person onthe agenda anymore.
(14:57):
It's just like, Oh yeah, socialmedia.
You know, I think now I thinkthe conversation's just shifted
in a big way.
So that's really exciting for mypart of the division.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (15:06):
Yeah.
I would agree 100% hybrideverything sort of from now on
and you know, I mean embrace it,it just gives you more, a bigger
opportunity to promote yourbook, which is, you know, really
what nobody could be JD Salingeranymore.
Like you have to promote yourbook.
It's just like the world we livein.
And I would say, leaning formyself really into like,
Instagram tours and payingcompanies who do it right to do
(15:30):
it and you know, really gettingit out there because that's
where I've seen the biggest likebump for my thriller books, for
my YA books.
You know, I work with like threeor four, I think different ones.
And they range in price, but Ifeel like it really gets the
word out there and then you seepeople like, oh my God, I heard
about that book from anothertour and et cetera.
(15:51):
So for me that's something I'llalways keep.
Yeah.
Anne Sampson (15:54):
Great.
Well, thank you so much for bothbeing here today.
It was a great conversation.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (15:56):
Of course.
Thanks so much for having me andgreat to meet you too, Lindsay.
Lindsey Reeder (16:00):
Yeah.
Nice to meet you.
Thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate (16:08):
Isn't the sky always falling in the publishing
industry?
So why do we keep doing it?
For Michelle Kim, author of themiddle grade novel Running
Through Sprinklers, it's momentslike these.
Michelle Kim (16:27):
Okay.
I have to read you this letter Igot from this girl.
I went to school with her dad ingrade-- like we were in grade
five or six or seven orsomething together.
And he showed up at one of myreadings and I signed a copy for
his daughter.
And he contacted me saying thathis daughter wrote me a letter
(16:47):
and he has no idea what, what itsays, but that she wants to mail
it to me.
So I just got it.
It says (16:53):
Dear Michelle Kim, Hi.
I'm not sure if you know who Iam, but I think, you know, my
dad, Keith Murray, I'mMackenzie.
Anyways, I'm a fan of yours.
Exclamation mark.
I may not follow much of yourwork, but I've read, reread and
(17:14):
read again, your book, RunningThrough Sprinklers.
It's amazing.
I relate to the-- I relate toSarah in so many ways.
Exclamation mark.
A real masterpiece, period.
I also like to writestories.
I'm actually working on afantasy novel, exclamation mark.
(17:35):
I would like some tips.
I'm not sure if you will writeback, but I hope you will,
exclamation mark.
You're a big inspiration for me.
Exclamation mark.
I'm really happy to own a signedcopy of your book.
Thank you, Michelle Kim,exclamation mark.
Mackenzie Murray, age 11.
(17:55):
And she drew a picture ofherself.
Sam Hiyate (18:02):
Do you have a moment?
And by moment we mean like twominutes tops.
That explains why you keep onkeeping on, in the wonderful
world of books.
If so, record it on your phone,send the file to us and we'll
see if we can't use it on theshow.
(18:24):
It seems today.
one of the most common pieces ofadvice thrown to authors is to
build your platform.
How big is your platform?
What's your platform?
So now we're telling authors tobe masters of their craft,
professional performers who canbring their work to life during
a reading, excellent networkers,because we all know it's about
(18:46):
who you know, and on top of thatself-marketing prodigies online,
that's a lot.
Just how important is thisauthor platform?
To figure it out, we've convenedthis panel to talk about its
importance.
Anne Sampson (19:05):
I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager of The Rights
Factory.
And today I'm joined by TRFagent, Katherine Willms.
Kathryn Willms (19:11):
Hello.
Anne Sampson (19:13):
TRF agent and burgeoning YouTuber, Tasneem
Motala.
Tasneem Motala (19:19):
Hello.
Anne Sampson (19:20):
And the agent provocateur himself, CEO of The
Rights Factory, Sam Hiyate.
Sam Hiyate (19:25):
Hello, Anne.
Thanks so much.
And I'd love this swap.
Usually I'm in your role, butI'm enjoying being like, a
panelist today.
Anne Sampson (19:31):
You get to answer my questions today.
.
Sam Hiyate (19:34):
Uh oh.
Anne Sampson (19:37):
All right, so to kick it off, I guess just so
we're all on the same page.
What, from your perspective is aplatform or is makes a good
author platform.
So I'm gonna throw it to Kathrynfirst.
Kathryn Willms (19:47):
Thanks, Anne.
Yeah, it's actually a questionI've thought about a lot, since
becoming a nonfiction agent.
And prior to this, when I was ahybrid publisher, I worked with
authors on proposals.
I'd just be, like, put in yourFacebook followers and call it a
day.
But thanks to Sam and the otherTRF agents, now I'm like, okay,
that section of the proposal isnot only really important, but
(20:07):
also requires creativity andcleverness.
Especially when your list doesnot include Addison Rae or
Cristiano Ronaldo, who did youknow-- is the most followed
person on Instagram and Facebookin the world.
And as such, I'm sure would want-- write a wonderful book! Call
me Chris< laugh>.
U m, but to me a platform issimply the connections a n
(20:28):
author has to their potentialaudience.
So, sure a social mediafollowing, but for some editors,
a better indication issubscribers to a newsletter.
An email list writers havecollected through their website
or their work.
I've also seen a platformdescription in a proposal that
was simply three pages of veryfamous names, representing
people that the author knew orwho had worked with--
(20:49):
journalists and political typesknow a lot of people.
And it's fair to piggyback offpeople who do have more
Established platforms.
If there's an overlap inaudience, you have reason to
think that they'll want to helppromote your book.
So yeah, for platform, I thinkyou're simply asking, how are
you going to tell people aboutyour book?
Who are you going to tell andlike, are you visible to your
audience?
(21:09):
So just briefly, the first bookI sold was by a genealogist.
And she told me she's superactive in this huge online
genealogical community.
So we put that in every proposaland last week she was in the
Wall Street Journal, helping aHolocaust orphan learn who he
was and then people have startedpre-ordering her book-- that's
not out until June.
And I have another author thatmay or may not be on a
billboard.
(21:29):
So that's a very literalinterpretation of platform.
So I think for this stuff, we'rejust looking for an angle and
it's actually-- I'm starting torealize-- one of the fun parts
of agenting.
Anne Sampson (21:39):
Yeah, I think when I was a publicist, one of the
first questions, you know, whenI was first meeting with an
author to start working on thepublicity campaign for the book
was just like, who do you know?
Like send me a list of everyonethat you know, everyone you've
worked with who might, you know,have some sort of platform or
have some sort of ability tohelp promote you.
(21:59):
And whether that was, you know,I've worked with this media
outlet before, I've written forthis publication, I've been on
this podcast before.
My friend is the editor of thismagazine or my friend has a, you
know, TikTok account with ahundred thousand followers.
Like any-- all of that-- becomespart of your platform.
(22:20):
And is something that apublicist can use down the line
to eventually help you promoteyour book.
Sam Hiyate (22:24):
What I want to say is that I think generally when I
speak to writers about platform,I use the word"community" as
kind of like general term to say, depending on how big and
specific your community is, thatcould really help the argument
for the book.
And so in a way, when publishersare coming up with their PNLs
(22:47):
and they're trying to figure outhow many copies they going to
sell, that's the part that theynever know, like how many books
are we going to sell?
It's always a guess, they usecomparable titles.
Yes.
But if they have numbers fromyou, specific numbers about how
big your community is, and it's-- it's weird for somebody
because what you're trying to dois monetize your community.
So it's like, okay, well, thisis how many people I know.
(23:09):
How many people would buy abook?
And if you could-- if they could-- just answer that question,
this platform stuff, wouldn't bethere.
It's like how many orders canyou guarantee your friends and
family and community and peopleon your mailing list and your
social media followers, blah,blah, blah, the whole thing.
How many can you guaranteethey're gonna buy?
And so in lieu of that, thepublishers want to see that
you've actually got some ofthat, you know, I mean, there's
(23:32):
also the idea of credibility,that you're being followed
already for.
And that's kind of like a litmustest to them, but it's almost
like how much of your communityis monetizable.
So that's always my short formfor what a platform is.
Anne Sampson (23:46):
So do you need then a platform to get an agent
or to sell a book?
Like, is that a considerationfor you, Sam, when you're
signing a client?
Sam Hiyate (23:55):
For non-fiction-- it's especially like non-fiction
where it's based on yourexpertise.
I think memoirs are a littledifferent because a memoir can
be just a great story.
So memoirs are special, but ingeneral for prescriptive
nonfiction or even certain typesof narrative nonfiction, I feel
(24:17):
like the platform is what sellsit because the platform is kind
of like a guarantee ofreadership.
Anne Sampson (24:24):
Tasneem is someone who's like actively building a
client list.
Like, what are you looking forwhen a client is-- a potential
client is-- pitching youthemselves.
Are you looking at theirplatform?
Tasneem Motala (24:36):
Honestly, I'm not, because I deal mostly with
fictional books, not nonfiction.
So with fiction you basicallyjust have to focus on writing
really well.
And if you're writing's good,then I'm interested.
I don't really look at theirplatform so much as I look at
their writing.
Kathryn Willms (24:51):
Yeah.
I find the same thing.
You know, getting started as anagent, good writing and good
ideas, trump, trump, all.
But increasingly as a personthat works with non-fiction, I
think it's really important thatan author's willing to do the
platform work and that'sbecoming more important to me.
And I'm thinking more about thatbecause, I think that writers,
(25:12):
it's actually good for them tobe kind of be realistic, that
the way you make money in thisindustry is not to write the
books is to sell them and havingthat sort of lens on it.
I think sometimes is, is theright sort of lens to at some
point in the process, to startthinking about that, that part
of the process
Sam Hiyate (25:27):
Building a platform has become a whole world onto
itself, where there are multiplebooks devoted to it.
There's courses, there's online,there's a Masterclass.
If you go on, you can go onMasterclass and somebody will
teach you how to build yourplatform.
So they know this is anessential thing for authors.
And so it's turned into likeeverything else, another thing
that the author has to pay forbefore they get published.
(25:49):
Unfortunately.
So from my point of view, if Ilike somebody's work and I think
it's marketable and, and therehas to be a certain level of
quality to it and integrity, Iwill work with them on a
platform-- if they're open toit.
Sometimes they'll say, You knowwhat?
Like, this is complicated.
I have to do all these thingsand then it might still not
happen.
And like, I'm just gonnaself-publish.
So there, there is always thatoption.
Anne Sampson (26:11):
So have you guys noticed any particular trends in
what types of platforms areuseful for even like fiction
versus non-fiction authors?
Like what are-- is thereanything people really want to
acquire right now?
What have you noticed, Sam?
Sam Hiyate (26:26):
I think TikTok is selling a of a lot of
books.
I have to bleep that out, I justrealized, uh, we're not a
swearing podcast, but I feellike, TikTok is huge.
I like I had a proposal that Iwent out with and the author had
a strong TikTok following andsome of the posts had gone viral
(26:50):
and reached in the sevenfigures, you know, like over a
million listens and views onTikTok.
And so that was very compellingto the publishers because
everything else was there, itwas a great concept.
I mean, a brilliant conceptactually.
And it was an author who wasvery credentialed to do the
book, but I think that was thekind of final piece that they're
(27:13):
looking for.
And when you have all three ofthose pieces, they can come in
with a strong offer and reallyget excited about the book
because everybody in the Pubboard will get excited about it.
It's not like a case where somepeople might say, I really love
this.
And the other people are like,How are we going to sell it?
You know, because the platformanswers that question.
This is how we're gonna sell it.
Anne Sampson (27:34):
Yeah.
I feel like kind of, there'sbeen certain trends in
publishing, where at one pointeveryone was like acquiring
people who were on Twitter, orwho had large Twitter
followings.
And then there was like thisrash of like YouTuber books
where all these like YouTubestars suddenly had books out.
And I think a lot of them didn'tsell particularly well.
so it's interesting tosee, I feel like every kind of
(27:58):
social media, new social mediaplatform that comes up all of a
sudden there's this rush toacquire books.
And now you're seeing it withTikTok.
Sam Hiyate (28:06):
Because I think there was a lot of Instagram
books before TikTok.
Anne Sampson (28:11):
Yeah.
I represented some kind ofInstagram-famous people.
Kathryn Willms (28:17):
I had one other thought about that too.
I had a really interestingconversation with an editor
recently.
I've spoken to tons of editorsjust getting started, just to
introduce myself, and I alwaysask about platform and they're
always like, yeah, it'simportant.
Like, yes, like we're, we'regoing to marketing to discuss
all these things.
But she had a really interestingpoint.
She was saying that, you know,that the industry's trying to do
(28:39):
so much better at having adiversity of stories and voices,
but social media still reallyprivileges white, CIS, beautiful
people with lattes.
And I think, that is somethingwe actually have to be a little
bit aware of because being toofocused on platform, in some
ways you're amplifying theloudest voices rather than, you
know, kind of what we'd say we'dlike to do, which is tell the
(28:59):
stories that, you know, ourcapitalist heteronormative
racist society doesn't tell.
So I think as an industry, it'sactually an interesting question
and that, you know, that it'simportant we continue to find,
to promote stories that need tobe told-- even, and perhaps
especially if those people don'thave access to the sort of
platform that marketingdepartments, you know, would
(29:21):
like them to.
Sam Hiyate (29:22):
That's a really good point.
I mean, I feel like all thisfocus on platform, I mean, there
have been a number ofinitiatives in publishing to
kind of, involve more diverse,like a multitude of voices,
rather than one specificprivileged type, let's say.
So I feel like in those cases,they are more focused on the
(29:46):
stories and the fact that thisis actually the story that
nobody knows, and that c ould bereally compelling, despite the
author's lack of platform.
Anne Sampson (29:55):
So I guess the next question is what does it
take to build a platform?
I know Tasneem you've kind ofrecently launched a YouTube
channel and I think people wouldfind it interesting that agents
themselves also feel the need tobuild a platform to attract
clients or to attract potentialclients.
What have you kind of learned sofar or where are you in your
(30:17):
journey-- YouTube journey?
Tasneem Motala (30:21):
That's a really good question.
One of the things that made mestart-- like want to start-- the
YouTube channel is one, becauseI've kind of always wanted to do
it.
Two, because I found that atleast now I have a reason for it
being important to me.
Before it was just, I just wantto have one, because I think
it'd be fun to do.
And I like video recording and Ilike editing and I like doing
(30:41):
all that stuff.
But now it's like, okay, wait,I'm an agent.
And if people don't know myname, then they're not going to
query me and then I'm not goingto have clients.
So for me, it's a matter ofgetting my name out there,
letting people know that Iexist, letting people know what
I'm interested in and what I'mlooking for, but also, kind of
(31:01):
to tie in what Sam said earlierabout community.
I do want to build a communityof writers, where people uplift
each other and talk about theirstories and maybe even find beta
readers in the communitythemselves and stuff like that.
So it's important to me, formyself as an agent so that I get
as many queries as possible andpeople know my name and what I'm
acquiring and then I can getqueries that are more and more
(31:24):
funneled to my interests.
But also just in terms of myplatform, a lot of my YouTube
channel is gonna be about, youknow, stuff that I'm learning
while I'm agenting and passingthat information along to people
who might not know how thingswork and, u h, writing tips and
analysis of different storiesand stuff.
But so it's not like completelyabout agenting or completely
(31:46):
about querying it's more aboutwriting as like a general idea,
but it is to get my name o utthere.
Anne Sampson (31:53):
Well, for
those of you, who are
interested, we will put a linkto Tasneem's, YouTube in the
show notes.
So if you're interested, goclick on that and find it.
But yeah, I think coming from--me coming from a social media
background, I would say one ofthe biggest things is to just
research your audience, likefind out where they hang out
online.
This is for social mediaplatforms.
(32:15):
And not just people who areinterested in your exact topic,
but people who are interested intopics related to your topic.
So if you write YA, you know,people who like read a lot of
YA, maybe they also watchRiverdale.
So find out where people aretalking about Riverdale online,
like just--
Sam Hiyate (32:32):
That's a good example.
Anne Sampson (32:33):
-- Find those connections, and then find out
where those people are hangingout and talking online.
I'd also say focus your efforts.
So don't feel like you have tobe on it all.
Don't feel like you have to beon Facebook and on Twitter and
on Instagram and on TikTok.
Like, figure out where youraudience is and focus your
effort on that platform or inthat area.
(32:56):
And it's okay to not have aTwitter account if you don't
think your audience is onTwitter.
And yeah, just being authentic.
Don't be self promotional.
Don't make every single post orevery single tweet, you know,
just about what you are doing.
Engage with the community, hypeother people up, all of that
(33:16):
kind of stuff.
Yeah.
And offer something useful,which is, I think what Tasneem
is really doing with her YouTubechannel.
It's not just about promotingherself as an agent.
It's about helping authors andstarting discussions and giving
advice.
So I think, yeah, that's reallygreat.
Sam Hiyate (33:34):
I think consistency is important too in that list,
Anne, because I think like theperson with a TikTok platform
that I represent, she made apoint of going on every day and
posting.
Anne Sampson (33:47):
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (33:48):
Even if it was just a brief thing, but it was like
there was consistent posting.
And I think that's how you kindof build that trust with your
audience.
Anne Sampson (33:57):
And I think for non-fiction authors, you
definitely like-- don't beafraid to pitch yourself as an
expert in your field.
So, you know, pitch podcaststhat are talking about your
topic.
Pitch publications that aretalking about your topic.
Yeah.
Kind of go out there and just bea little bit-- I know I said
(34:18):
don't be a hundred percent self-promotional-- but you you still
can be self-promotional.
Tasneem Motala (34:24):
I will say though, that half of my Twitter
account, my professional Twitteraccount at least, is just me
posting, like, here's a photo ofmy mug, because I just made
myself a latte but, andthose always get likes, so it
works.
Anne Sampson (34:36):
All right.
So my last question-- and thiskind of generated some debate in
the group chat-- isself-publishing a platform, and
is it a useful one?
Kathryn, let's go to you.
Kathryn Willms (34:50):
So I think everyone knows that the 50
Shades and The Martianself-publishing fairy tales and
I've helped a lot of authorsself-publish over the years and
kind of what I kind of come tois: self-publishing a book,
while, it can be good in a lotof different ways and helpful,
it's not a platform.
No one will ever find your bookunless you do exactly what we're
(35:13):
talking about in this podcast--actively sell that book to your
connections, make moreconnections, then sell them the
book.
I don't think there's any stigmaaround having self-published
books when you approach agentsor with editors and a bunch of
authors move the other way thesedays.
So they go from traditionallypublished to being
self-published, because theyhave a platform already, and
they can make more money.
(35:33):
But this idea that you couldlike put a book up on Amazon,
never tell anyone about it, andhope for it to like catch fire.
I think that's a lottery ticket.
Like.
So to me self-publishing is nota platform.
It's a reason to build aplatform.
And in fact, in some ways you'redoing that even more
independently.
And also once you do thatthough, then, you know, you
(35:54):
might get a look in, intotraditionally publishing.
If that's the direction that you, you choose or are interested
in going.
Sam Hiyate (35:59):
I think the example here is somebody like Rupi Kaur,
who self-published her book andthen realized that she had to
sell it and then started to goon Instagram and started to do a
bunch of things to promote herbook.
And built a platform to sell--specifically to sell her book.
But s he d id it.
She spent hours every day, everyweek consistently until I think,
(36:23):
she reached 10,000 or 12,000 copies sold.
And then, I think, a publishercame after and said, You sold
12,000 copies of aself-published book.
You're awesome.
We want to publish you-- becausethey saw what she was doing on
social media.
So self-publishing is successfulwhen it takes a certain kind of
person who has a kind ofbusiness s avvy and that in
(36:45):
fact, would be a good publisherto anybody.
They just h appen to bepublishing themselves.
Anne Sampson (36:49):
All right.
Well, thanks everyone for thegreat discussion on platform.
I think this was really--
Sam Hiyate (36:54):
I feel like we just got started.
Kathryn Willms (36:58):
I know.
I was like, I need all of Anne'stips.
Tasneem Motala (37:01):
Like it's over?
Okay.
Anne Sampson (37:02):
We might need to have a platform, part two
discussion.
.
Kathryn Willms (37:07):
Absolutely.
Sam Hiyate (37:17):
OMG.
That's this week's show, folks.
Thanks to all our guests and ourproducer, Andrew Kaufman.
Most of all, thank you forlistening.
And remember to share the loveslash feedback and post your
thoughts and review us anywhereyou can-- as well, do subscribe
on SubStack, under the AgentProvocateur newsletter.
(37:38):
It's a companion piece to thepodcast and you can always reach
out to us with any feedback orthoughts via our website,
therightsfactory.com or ouragency socials until then see
you next week.
Hi, everyone, welcome to season two, episode
four of Agent Provocateur.
I'm Sam Hiyate, Chief AgentProvocateur at TRF, and today's
episode is all about the mostimportant thing in the
publishing world.
Well, the second most-- after weget you a book deal-- and that's
making sales.
(00:29):
First, we take a look at how thepandemic has changed book
promotion, and how many of thesenew aspects will stick around
long after the virus itself.
Anne Sampson & Panelists (00:39):
I think we all miss the booze of
in-person book events.
That's like one of the perks,right?
Sam Hiyate (00:47):
Then we have a panel discussion about how important
it is for an author to haveplatform.
Kathryn Willms (00:53):
No one will ever find your book, unless you do
exactly what we're talking aboutin this podcast-- actively sell
that book to your connections,make more connections, then sell
them the book.
Sam Hiyate (01:21):
When the pandemic hit in early 2020, book
publicists and marketersscrambled overnight to
re-strategize book promotion.
Suddenly book launches,in-person media interviews and
signings-- all traditional tentpolls of book promotion--
weren't possible.
Two years later, it's time totake a look at what we've
(01:42):
learned about book marketing andpromotion during a pandemic.
And see what, if any, of thesenew strategies are going to
stick around.
Anne Sampson (01:54):
Today, I'm joined by Lindsay Reeder, senior
digital marketing manager atHarlequin.
Hi Lindsay.
Lindsey Reeder (01:59):
Hi, so nice to be here.
Anne Sampson (02:01):
And I'm also joined by author Lee Matthew
Goldberg, whose newest bookVanish Me, the final book in his
Runaway Train trilogy will bepublished on February 10th.
Hi Lee.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (02:11):
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
I'm happy to be a part of it.
Anne Sampson (02:14):
Well, thank you both for being here.
And I'm Anne Sampson, brandmanager at The Rights Factory.
However, in a previous life, Iwas a book publicist and I
remember thinking at thebeginning of the pandemic, Oh
man, I am so glad that this isnot my job anymore.
Because I know how much planninggoes into the promotion of a
(02:35):
book and into the launch of abook.
And I'm sure it was sodevastating to see a lot of
those plans just kind of flushedaway.
So maybe I'll start with you,Lindsey, because as a digital
marketing manager, I'm sure alot of eyes were pointed at you
when that happened.
So what was that pivot like foryou?
Lindsey Reeder (02:53):
It was extreme, uh
Um, I had just come into thisrole.
Um, in my previous life, I wasat Penguin Random House and had
just started, didn't know anyonereally.
I'd only been at the company forfour months and they said, We'll
come back in two weeks, justhead home and we'll figure it
out.
And then the world stopped andeverybody was looking at digital
(03:13):
marketing to say, What are wedoing?
How are we making it different?
How do we keep book sales going?
And there were so manyconversations and meanwhile, the
publicity team is cancelingeverything and all of that money
is lost.
And a lot of money was shiftingover to our team in particular
to kind of exemplify, geteverybody talking about all of
(03:35):
that.
So it was just unlike anythingI've ever been a part of before,
if I'm being honest, in 14 yearsin publishing.
It was crazy
Anne Sampson (03:44):
And so Lee, you've had several books published kind
of both before and during thepandemic.
What kind of changes did younotice, with the promotion of
your books?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (03:54):
Yeah, I mean, huge changes.
So with Vanish Me coming outnext week, it'll be my sixth
book that I put out during thispandemic.
So I feel like I kind of knowwhat's going on and how to
promote a little bit.
And yeah, everything was fullyvirtual, but in all honesty,
like I had a book with StMartins.
(04:14):
They were happy that I did atour, but everything came out of
my pocket.
I was paying for the hotel andthe plane and I really booked
everything.
And how many sales did thatreally add to, you know, 30
people would show up to anevent, 40 people.
So I've really kind ofcapitalized on virtual.
I've had outside publicists,I've done a ton of virtual tours
(04:35):
for all my books.
And I've kind of learned likewhat works and what doesn't.
Like, everything with thisindustry and this career, I
throw everything at the wall andI see what sticks and basically
what doesn't.
And honestly a lot has reallystuck during the pandemic in
terms of promotion.
And I feel like I'll use that,even, hopefully when we're out
of this and we actually could bein person again, touring-- I'll
(04:58):
still do virtual.
Anne Sampson (04:59):
Great.
Um, so do you think this, likemaybe the shift to online events
has opened you up Lee, to morereaders to your book?
Like people that you wouldn'thave been able to reach before
with online events?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (05:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I've focused a lot also on likeInstagram.
And I have an outside publicist.
He's like a teen, he's like akid.
Like I pay him to just find meInsta followers and send the
book out to them and then theypromote it and it works great.
Sometimes 200 people respond,300 people, 400 people.
It was never really something Ihad thought to really do before.
(05:35):
And then in addition, I run areading series, Guerrilla Lit
reading series.
Obviously we couldn't do that inperson.
We've done that virtual thewhole time.
And what was great about that,is we weren't only taking
authors from New York City whereI am.
We had authors from London andsort of all over the place that
were able to participate aswell.
And in the future we'll alwayskeep it hybrid.
(05:56):
So we'll be able to kind of havehopefully in person, but we
also, in March, when we come upagain, we'll have an author
who's, you know, far away aswell to be able to participate.
Anne Sampson (06:08):
And what about you, Lindsey?
Do you think you've been able todraw on more readers because you
work in Canada and the U.S.,right?
For your books?
Lindsey Reeder (06:15):
That's correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
It was originally quite hardbecause I think every author
that I've worked with was goingout and doing tons of free
things.
And from a publisher'sperspective, we're looking at it
kind of overall of like how dowe make a book sale?
And they're giving away so muchcontent for free because
everything had-- the ground hadfallen out from underneath them.
(06:37):
So they were like, I gotta dosomething.
I'm home.
I'll just jump on Instagramlive.
And I don't know if you guysremember at the like start of
the pandemic every time youopened Instagram, there was like
eight lives happening and nowthere's only one, but we're back
to that.
publisher were having, wastalking about how do we make
sales, how do we ticket theseevents?
(06:59):
And it feels different thanjoining your exercise class for
free every night, you know,those kinds of things.
So how could we make it anexperience 2.0, as opposed to
something you could watch forfree?
And I think that was a big partof the conversations we were
having overall.
Anne Sampson (07:16):
So how do you make an experience out of something
online?
Lindsey Reeder (07:19):
There's different ways.
We've done a couple of things.
And Lee, you might havedifferent experiences too, but
we did a couple of, a lot of,signings, book plates and things
like that and going outpackages, but that gets very
costly, very quickly.
Things like that.
We had one event that, it wasfor Mother's Day and you could
bring your mom or someone that'slike a mom in your life, to come
(07:43):
and meet three differentauthors.
And the ticket was like 15 bucksor something like that.
And then somebody got a chanceto win all three books at the
end.
Things like that, something thatwas more of an experience, but
then there's that, and I'm surewe'll probably touch on this,
but that fatigue, that Zoomfatigue.
I've done this, I've sat ineight hours of meetings all day
and now I'm on Zoom at night.
(08:03):
Like it was, there was exhausttoo.
So it was that ebb and flow oftrying to figure out what was
different.
And why would someone show up?
Anne Sampson (08:11):
So Lee, it sounds like you're very happy with the
online events.
Would you even want to go backto in-person or how are you...?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (08:18):
Oh yeah, no, I miss in-person so much.
Like, I'm over Zoom.
You know, what I meant more isto just find some kind of middle
ground and hybrid.
Um, you know, and especially ifyou're not an author, who's like
an A-list author, that has somuch marketing money behind
them.
You know, in all honesty, it'slike, how much are you really
(08:40):
doing outside of virtual anyway?
So you know, for an author likemyself until I reach that level,
hopefully, yeah.
Like, I think I have-- we'reabout to announce like a five
book series that I have comingout.
So that's all coming out in thesecond half of the year.
And hopefully with that, I'll beable to maybe kind of book some
(09:01):
in-person events because youknow, you miss that feel of like
fans actually coming, friends,family.
Signing books, like just thesmell of books around you.
It doesn't quite compete online.
Honestly.
Lindsey Reeder (09:14):
I would say, and on the readers community, I'll
just speak on behalf of all ofthem.
I think that that appetite forreaders is there too, like on
the flip side, authors want it,but I know the community is--
they miss the experience oftalking to an author, getting
that signature in front of them.
You know, even launch parties.
I miss launch parties.
I know the community misses it.
It feels so special.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (09:34):
Yeah.
Lindsey Reeder (09:34):
I don't think any of this will ever go away
from this industry.
I know like every time there's anew thing-- adult coloring book,
an e-book an audio book, theindustry kind of, it peters out
after a while.
And it's the same thing that weall love and know about books,
which is that consistency ofjust turning the page and
talking to the people that wrotethe words.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (09:52):
So I did a launch party for the first book
in the YA Series, Runaway Train.
And it was just as Delta kind ofhit New York and kind of took
over in the summer.
And I was like, at that, I'mjust going to do it in Central
Park, outside.
Anne Sampson (10:07):
Amazing.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:08):
Friends and family came, we had about
30, 35 people.
There was like a teacher's partygoing on and they gave us all
their booze and food and thenthey bought some of the books.
And it was wonderful.
And it was like, I could feeleven from friends and family who
were, you know, just camebecause they loved me that they
missed, like in person things.
(10:28):
So I feel like there's a waykind of around it in ways, even
if you can't be like in abookstore.
As long as the weather's niceand you have a park nearby,
bring the booze and yeah, youcan have an event.
Lindsey Reeder (10:42):
There's always so much booze.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:43):
There's always so much booze.
I still actually have, they werelike rose in a can.
And they gave me so much.
I'm like, I can't drink that.
Yeah.
I don't even drink, really.
Lindsey Reeder (10:54):
This took a turn
Lee Matthew Goldberg (10:55):
Anne Sampson (10:57):
I think we all miss the booze of in-person book
events.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (11:00):
Yes.
Anne Sampson (11:00):
That's like one of the perks, right.
Lindsey Reeder (11:03):
Totally.
Anne Sampson (11:04):
Of publishing events.
So a lot of authors strugglewith self-promotion, especially
online.
Both of you are really active onsocial media.
How do you get over thatinitial, like anxiety, of
putting yourself out there, Lee,do you want to start?
Lee Matthew Goldberg (11:19):
Sure.
Yeah.
I mean, at my core I dislikesocial media and I don't enjoy
it.
And it's something as an author,I've just learned to accept and
get over it and try to find whatI enjoy with it.
So when I'm interacting withsomebody who's a reader or in
the industry or my other side,sort of the Hollywood side and
(11:40):
people-- I'm into it.
And you try to kind of balanceyour promotion with, life stuff
and stuff that's not just aboutbooks, so you're not just this
robot.
That's just like, Buy my book,buy my book, buy my book over
and over again.
So it's kind of finding thatmiddle ground.
And I think, you know, thewriter's community on places
(12:01):
like Instagram and Twitter, sosupportive and everybody really
lifts-- there's literally ahashtag#writerslift and it's
purpose is lifting up writers.
So you could find your kind ofpeople on it as much as
possible.
And I would say, do what youfeel comfortable with, you know,
and I don't know, I devote maybelike 20 minutes a day to it.
(12:21):
Like it's not that difficult inall honesty and I'm moving away
from Facebook because that I'mfinding more toxic, and doesn't
really help anything.
And just kind of, you know,people tooting their own horn,
kind of.
Lindsey Reeder (12:35):
Yeah, I think it's, I don't know, like that's
exactly what I always tellauthors.
Do what makes you feel the mostcomfortable.
Going on camera, forcing it?
The second it feels inauthentic,like the community will know,
and then it's forced.
So they know someone asks you todo it-- going to the places
where you feel the mostcomfortable.
I think you even with TikTok inthe pandemic as a whole, I think
(12:56):
every author was like in myinbox and, Should I get on
TikTok?
What do I do on TikTok?
The answer is if you're notready for it, don't do it.
Go where you're comfortable andfind your footing there and
everything else falls intoplace.
You don't have to do everythingbecause you'll start to spread
yourself too thin.
So Lee, I like your, you know,20 minutes, all you need kind of
thing.
And that, in a lot of ways, itcan feel like a part-time job if
(13:20):
you let it
Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:20):
Yeah.
Lindsey Reeder (13:21):
But it doesn't have to.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:21):
Yeah.
I think that's great.
TikTok is my next sort of hillthat I'll climb.
Lindsey Reeder (13:28):
Especially with YA books, you have to.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (13:30):
I know.
I tried and I was doing readingsand I was like, I don't think
that's really what works.
It has to be like quicker and,you know, have a little bit more
like pizazz to it, I guess.
I don't know.
I'm 44 years old.
know, try to enjoy it as much aspossible because people aren't
(13:52):
stupid and they'll they'll gleanif you're like not into it.
Anne Sampson (13:55):
Yeah.
I think authenticity online isthe one thing people can sniff
out in-- inauthenticity.
Mm-hmm
Um, so for both of you, is thereone pandemic change or if you
had to choose one pandemicchange to keep, going into a
kind of post-pandemic world,what would that be in book
promotion?
(14:15):
Lindsay?
Lindsey Reeder (14:16):
Oh, that's such a good question.
I definitely, I'm gonna say twothings really quickly: hybrid
everything.
I think it just takes it to thenext level, and for those people
that aren't able to make it outto New York for an event or to
Toronto, it just opens up thedoor for everybody.
So I love that kind of piece ofit.
It has to be done well, though.
So that's really important.
(14:37):
And then I think the other thingis we've moved really into a
virtual world and it's no longernecessarily like you can't not
know what's going on on theInternet.
So I, as somebody who looksafter a digital marketing team,
I'm so glad that we're havingdifferent conversations now.
And we're not the last person onthe agenda anymore.
(14:57):
It's just like, Oh yeah, socialmedia.
You know, I think now I thinkthe conversation's just shifted
in a big way.
So that's really exciting for mypart of the division.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (15:06):
Yeah.
I would agree 100% hybrideverything sort of from now on
and you know, I mean embrace it,it just gives you more, a bigger
opportunity to promote yourbook, which is, you know, really
what nobody could be JD Salingeranymore.
Like you have to promote yourbook.
It's just like the world we livein
And I would say, leaning formyself really into like,
Instagram tours and payingcompanies who do it right to do
(15:30):
it and you know, really gettingit out there because that's
where I've seen the biggest likebump for my thriller books, for
my YA books.
You know, I work with like threeor four, I think different ones.
And they range in price, but Ifeel like it really gets the
word out there and then you seepeople like, oh my God, I heard
about that book from anothertour and et cetera.
(15:51):
So for me that's something I'llalways keep.
Yeah.
Anne Sampson (15:54):
Great.
Well, thank you so much for bothbeing here today.
It was a great conversation.
Lee Matthew Goldberg (15:56):
Of course.
Thanks so much for having me andgreat to meet you too, Lindsay.
Lindsey Reeder (16:00):
Yeah.
Nice to meet you.
Thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate (16:08):
Isn't the sky always falling in the publishing
industry?
So why do we keep doing it?
For Michelle Kim, author of themiddle grade novel Running
Through Sprinklers, it's momentslike these.
Michelle Kim (16:27):
Okay.
I have to read you this letter Igot from this girl.
I went to school with her dad ingrade-- like we were in grade
five or six or seven orsomething together.
And he showed up at one of myreadings and I signed a copy for
his daughter.
And he contacted me saying thathis daughter wrote me a letter
(16:47):
and he has no idea what, what itsays, but that she wants to mail
it to me.
So I just got it.
It says (16:53):
Dear Michelle Kim, Hi.
I'm not sure if you know who Iam, but I think, you know, my
dad, Keith Murray, I'mMackenzie.
Anyways, I'm a fan of yours.
Exclamation mark.
I may not follow much of yourwork, but I've read, reread and
(17:14):
read again, your book, RunningThrough Sprinklers.
It's amazing.
I relate to the-- I relate toSarah in so many ways.
Exclamation mark.
A real masterpiece, period.
I'm actually working on afantasy novel, exclamation mark.
(17:35):
I would like some tips.
I'm not sure if you will writeback, but I hope you will,
exclamation mark.
You're a big inspiration for me.
Exclamation mark.
I'm really happy to own a signedcopy of your book.
Thank you, Michelle Kim,exclamation mark.
Mackenzie Murray, age 11.
(17:55):
And she drew a picture ofherself.
Sam Hiyate (18:02):
Do you have a moment?
And by moment we mean like twominutes tops.
That explains why you keep onkeeping on, in the wonderful
world of books.
If so, record it on your phone,send the file to us and we'll
see if we can't use it on theshow.
(18:24):
It seems today.
one of the most common pieces ofadvice thrown to authors is to
build your platform.
How big is your platform?
What's your platform?
So now we're telling authors tobe masters of their craft,
professional performers who canbring their work to life during
a reading, excellent networkers,because we all know it's about
(18:46):
who you know, and on top of thatself-marketing prodigies online,
that's a lot.
Just how important is thisauthor platform?
To figure it out, we've convenedthis panel to talk about its
importance.
Anne Sampson (19:05):
I'm Anne Sampson, brand manager of The Rights
Factory.
And today I'm joined by TRFagent, Katherine Willms.
Kathryn Willms (19:11):
Hello.
Anne Sampson (19:13):
TRF agent and burgeoning YouTuber, Tasneem
Motala.
Tasneem Motala (19:19):
Hello.
Anne Sampson (19:20):
And the agent provocateur himself, CEO of The
Rights Factory, Sam Hiyate.
Sam Hiyate (19:25):
Hello, Anne.
Thanks so much.
And I'd love this swap.
Usually I'm in your role, butI'm enjoying being like, a
panelist today.
Anne Sampson (19:31):
You get to answer my questions today.
Sam Hiyate (19:34):
Uh oh.
Anne Sampson (19:37):
All right, so to kick it off, I guess just so
we're all on the same page.
What, from your perspective is aplatform or is makes a good
author platform.
So I'm gonna throw it to Kathrynfirst.
Kathryn Willms (19:47):
Thanks, Anne.
Yeah, it's actually a questionI've thought about a lot, since
becoming a nonfiction agent.
And prior to this, when I was ahybrid publisher, I worked with
authors on proposals.
I'd just be, like, put in yourFacebook followers and call it a
day.
But thanks to Sam and the otherTRF agents, now I'm like, okay,
that section of the proposal isnot only really important, but
(20:07):
also requires creativity andcleverness.
Especially when your list doesnot include Addison Rae or
Cristiano Ronaldo, who did youknow-- is the most followed
person on Instagram and Facebookin the world.
And as such, I'm sure would want-- write a wonderful book! Call
me Chris< laugh>.
U m, but to me a platform issimply the connections a n
(20:28):
author has to their potentialaudience.
So, sure a social mediafollowing, but for some editors,
a better indication issubscribers to a newsletter.
An email list writers havecollected through their website
or their work.
I've also seen a platformdescription in a proposal that
was simply three pages of veryfamous names, representing
people that the author knew orwho had worked with--
(20:49):
journalists and political typesknow a lot of people.
And it's fair to piggyback offpeople who do have more
Established platforms.
If there's an overlap inaudience, you have reason to
think that they'll want to helppromote your book.
So yeah, for platform, I thinkyou're simply asking, how are
you going to tell people aboutyour book?
Who are you going to tell andlike, are you visible to your
audience?
(21:09):
So just briefly, the first bookI sold was by a genealogist.
And she told me she's superactive in this huge online
genealogical community.
So we put that in every proposaland last week she was in the
Wall Street Journal, helping aHolocaust orphan learn who he
was and then people have startedpre-ordering her book-- that's
not out until June.
And I have another author thatmay or may not be on a
billboard.
(21:29):
So that's a very literalinterpretation of platform.
So I think for this stuff, we'rejust looking for an angle and
it's actually-- I'm starting torealize-- one of the fun parts
of agenting.
Anne Sampson (21:39):
Yeah, I think when I was a publicist, one of the
first questions, you know, whenI was first meeting with an
author to start working on thepublicity campaign for the book
was just like, who do you know?
Like send me a list of everyonethat you know, everyone you've
worked with who might, you know,have some sort of platform or
have some sort of ability tohelp promote you.
(21:59):
And whether that was, you know,I've worked with this media
outlet before, I've written forthis publication, I've been on
this podcast before.
My friend is the editor of thismagazine or my friend has a, you
know, TikTok account with ahundred thousand followers.
Like any-- all of that-- becomespart of your platform.
(22:20):
And is something that apublicist can use down the line
to eventually help you promoteyour book.
Sam Hiyate (22:24):
What I want to say is that I think generally when I
speak to writers about platform,I use the word"community" as
kind of like general term to say, depending on how big and
specific your community is, thatcould really help the argument
for the book.
And so in a way, when publishersare coming up with their PNLs
(22:47):
and they're trying to figure outhow many copies they going to
sell, that's the part that theynever know, like how many books
are we going to sell?
It's always a guess, they usecomparable titles.
Yes.
But if they have numbers fromyou, specific numbers about how
big your community is, and it's-- it's weird for somebody
because what you're trying to dois monetize your community.
So it's like, okay, well, thisis how many people I know.
(23:09):
How many people would buy abook?
And if you could-- if they could-- just answer that question,
this platform stuff, wouldn't bethere.
It's like how many orders canyou guarantee your friends and
family and community and peopleon your mailing list and your
social media followers, blah,blah, blah, the whole thing.
How many can you guaranteethey're gonna buy?
And so in lieu of that, thepublishers want to see that
you've actually got some ofthat, you know, I mean, there's
(23:32):
also the idea of credibility,that you're being followed
already for.
And that's kind of like a litmustest to them, but it's almost
like how much of your communityis monetizable.
So that's always my short formfor what a platform is.
Anne Sampson (23:46):
So do you need then a platform to get an agent
or to sell a book?
Like, is that a considerationfor you, Sam, when you're
signing a client?
Sam Hiyate (23:55):
For non-fiction-- it's especially like non-fiction
where it's based on yourexpertise.
I think memoirs are a littledifferent because a memoir can
be just a great story.
So memoirs are special, but ingeneral for prescriptive
nonfiction or even certain typesof narrative nonfiction, I feel
(24:17):
like the platform is what sellsit because the platform is kind
of like a guarantee ofreadership.
Anne Sampson (24:24):
Tasneem is someone who's like actively building a
client list.
Like, what are you looking forwhen a client is-- a potential
client is-- pitching youthemselves.
Are you looking at theirplatform?
Tasneem Motala (24:36):
Honestly, I'm not, because I deal mostly with
fictional books, not nonfiction.
So with fiction you basicallyjust have to focus on writing
really well.
And if you're writing's good,then I'm interested.
I don't really look at theirplatform so much as I look at
their writing.
Kathryn Willms (24:51):
Yeah.
I find the same thing.
You know, getting started as anagent, good writing and good
ideas, trump, trump, all.
But increasingly as a personthat works with non-fiction, I
think it's really important thatan author's willing to do the
platform work and that'sbecoming more important to me.
And I'm thinking more about thatbecause, I think that writers,
(25:12):
it's actually good for them tobe kind of be realistic, that
the way you make money in thisindustry is not to write the
books is to sell them and havingthat sort of lens on it.
I think sometimes is, is theright sort of lens to at some
point in the process, to startthinking about that, that part
of the process
Sam Hiyate (25:27):
Building a platform has become a whole world onto
itself, where there are multiplebooks devoted to it.
There's courses, there's online,there's a Masterclass.
If you go on, you can go onMasterclass and somebody will
teach you how to build yourplatform.
So they know this is anessential thing for authors.
And so it's turned into likeeverything else, another thing
that the author has to pay forbefore they get published.
(25:49):
Unfortunately.
So from my point of view, if Ilike somebody's work and I think
it's marketable and, and therehas to be a certain level of
quality to it and integrity, Iwill work with them on a
platform-- if they're open toit.
Sometimes they'll say, You knowwhat?
Like, this is complicated.
I have to do all these thingsand then it might still not
happen.
And like, I'm just gonnaself-publish.
So there, there is always thatoption.
Anne Sampson (26:11):
So have you guys noticed any particular trends in
what types of platforms areuseful for even like fiction
versus non-fiction authors?
Like what are-- is thereanything people really want to
acquire right now?
What have you noticed, Sam?
Sam Hiyate (26:26):
I think TikTok is selling a
books.
I have to bleep that out, I justrealized
swearing podcast, but I feellike, TikTok is huge.
I like I had a proposal that Iwent out with and the author had
a strong TikTok following andsome of the posts had gone viral
(26:50):
and reached in the sevenfigures, you know, like over a
million listens and views onTikTok.
And so that was very compellingto the publishers because
everything else was there, itwas a great concept.
I mean, a brilliant conceptactually.
And it was an author who wasvery credentialed to do the
book, but I think that was thekind of final piece that they're
(27:13):
looking for.
And when you have all three ofthose pieces, they can come in
with a strong offer and reallyget excited about the book
because everybody in the Pubboard will get excited about it.
It's not like a case where somepeople might say, I really love
this.
And the other people are like,How are we going to sell it?
You know, because the platformanswers that question.
This is how we're gonna sell it.
Anne Sampson (27:34):
Yeah.
I feel like kind of, there'sbeen certain trends in
publishing, where at one pointeveryone was like acquiring
people who were on Twitter, orwho had large Twitter
followings.
And then there was like thisrash of like YouTuber books
where all these like YouTubestars suddenly had books out.
And I think a lot of them didn'tsell particularly well.
(27:58):
social media, new social mediaplatform that comes up all of a
sudden there's this rush toacquire books.
And now you're seeing it withTikTok.
Sam Hiyate (28:06):
Because I think there was a lot of Instagram
books before TikTok.
Anne Sampson (28:11):
Yeah.
I represented some kind ofInstagram-famous people.
Kathryn Willms (28:17):
I had one other thought about that too.
I had a really interestingconversation with an editor
recently.
I've spoken to tons of editorsjust getting started, just to
introduce myself, and I alwaysask about platform and they're
always like, yeah, it'simportant.
Like, yes, like we're, we'regoing to marketing to discuss
all these things.
But she had a really interestingpoint.
She was saying that, you know,that the industry's trying to do
(28:39):
so much better at having adiversity of stories and voices,
but social media still reallyprivileges white, CIS, beautiful
people with lattes.
And I think, that is somethingwe actually have to be a little
bit aware of because being toofocused on platform, in some
ways you're amplifying theloudest voices rather than, you
know, kind of what we'd say we'dlike to do, which is tell the
(28:59):
stories that, you know, ourcapitalist heteronormative
racist society doesn't tell.
So I think as an industry, it'sactually an interesting question
and that, you know, that it'simportant we continue to find,
to promote stories that need tobe told-- even, and perhaps
especially if those people don'thave access to the sort of
platform that marketingdepartments, you know, would
(29:21):
like them to.
Sam Hiyate (29:22):
That's a really good point.
I mean, I feel like all thisfocus on platform, I mean, there
have been a number ofinitiatives in publishing to
kind of, involve more diverse,like a multitude of voices,
rather than one specificprivileged type, let's say.
So I feel like in those cases,they are more focused on the
(29:46):
stories and the fact that thisis actually the story that
nobody knows, and that c ould bereally compelling, despite the
author's lack of platform.
Anne Sampson (29:55):
So I guess the next question is what does it
take to build a platform?
I know Tasneem you've kind ofrecently launched a YouTube
channel and I think people wouldfind it interesting that agents
themselves also feel the need tobuild a platform to attract
clients or to attract potentialclients.
What have you kind of learned sofar or where are you in your
(30:17):
journey-- YouTube journey?
Tasneem Motala (30:21):
That's a really good question.
One of the things that made mestart-- like want to start-- the
YouTube channel is one, becauseI've kind of always wanted to do
it.
Two, because I found that atleast now I have a reason for it
being important to me.
Before it was just, I just wantto have one, because I think
it'd be fun to do.
And I like video recording and Ilike editing and I like doing
(30:41):
all that stuff.
But now it's like, okay, wait,I'm an agent.
And if people don't know myname, then they're not going to
query me and then I'm not goingto have clients.
So for me, it's a matter ofgetting my name out there,
letting people know that Iexist, letting people know what
I'm interested in and what I'mlooking for, but also, kind of
(31:01):
to tie in what Sam said earlierabout community.
I do want to build a communityof writers, where people uplift
each other and talk about theirstories and maybe even find beta
readers in the communitythemselves and stuff like that.
So it's important to me, formyself as an agent so that I get
as many queries as possible andpeople know my name and what I'm
acquiring and then I can getqueries that are more and more
(31:24):
funneled to my interests.
But also just in terms of myplatform, a lot of my YouTube
channel is gonna be about, youknow, stuff that I'm learning
while I'm agenting and passingthat information along to people
who might not know how thingswork and, u h, writing tips and
analysis of different storiesand stuff.
But so it's not like completelyabout agenting or completely
(31:46):
about querying it's more aboutwriting as like a general idea,
but it is to get my name o utthere.
Anne Sampson (31:53):
interested, we will put a linkto Tasneem's, YouTube in the
show notes.
So if you're interested, goclick on that and find it.
But yeah, I think coming from--me coming from a social media
background, I would say one ofthe biggest things is to just
research your audience, likefind out where they hang out
online.
This is for social mediaplatforms.
(32:15):
And not just people who areinterested in your exact topic,
but people who are interested intopics related to your topic.
So if you write YA, you know,people who like read a lot of
YA, maybe they also watchRiverdale.
So find out where people aretalking about Riverdale online,
like just--
Sam Hiyate (32:32):
That's a good example.
Anne Sampson (32:33):
-- Find those connections, and then find out
where those people are hangingout and talking online.
I'd also say focus your efforts.
So don't feel like you have tobe on it all.
Don't feel like you have to beon Facebook and on Twitter and
on Instagram and on TikTok.
Like, figure out where youraudience is and focus your
effort on that platform or inthat area.
(32:56):
And it's okay to not have aTwitter account if you don't
think your audience is onTwitter.
And yeah, just being authentic.
Don't be self promotional.
Don't make every single post orevery single tweet, you know,
just about what you are doing.
Engage with the community, hypeother people up, all of that
(33:16):
kind of stuff.
Yeah.
And offer something useful,which is, I think what Tasneem
is really doing with her YouTubechannel.
It's not just about promotingherself as an agent.
It's about helping authors andstarting discussions and giving
advice.
So I think, yeah, that's reallygreat.
Sam Hiyate (33:34):
I think consistency is important too in that list,
Anne, because I think like theperson with a TikTok platform
that I represent, she made apoint of going on every day and
posting.
Anne Sampson (33:47):
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (33:48):
Even if it was just a brief thing, but it was like
there was consistent posting.
And I think that's how you kindof build that trust with your
audience.
Anne Sampson (33:57):
And I think for non-fiction authors, you
definitely like-- don't beafraid to pitch yourself as an
expert in your field.
So, you know, pitch podcaststhat are talking about your
topic.
Pitch publications that aretalking about your topic.
Yeah.
Kind of go out there and just bea little bit-- I know I said
(34:18):
don't be a hundred percent self-promotional-- but you you still
can be self-promotional
Tasneem Motala (34:24):
I will say though, that half of my Twitter
account, my professional Twitteraccount at least, is just me
posting, like, here's a photo ofmy mug, because I just made
myself a latte
works.
Anne Sampson (34:36):
All right.
So my last question-- and thiskind of generated some debate in
the group chat-- isself-publishing a platform, and
is it a useful one?
Kathryn, let's go to you.
Kathryn Willms (34:50):
So I think everyone knows that the 50
Shades and The Martianself-publishing fairy tales and
I've helped a lot of authorsself-publish over the years and
kind of what I kind of come tois: self-publishing a book,
while, it can be good in a lotof different ways and helpful,
it's not a platform.
No one will ever find your bookunless you do exactly what we're
(35:13):
talking about in this podcast--actively sell that book to your
connections, make moreconnections, then sell them the
book.
I don't think there's any stigmaaround having self-published
books when you approach agentsor with editors and a bunch of
authors move the other way thesedays.
So they go from traditionallypublished to being
self-published, because theyhave a platform already, and
they can make more money.
(35:33):
But this idea that you couldlike put a book up on Amazon,
never tell anyone about it, andhope for it to like catch fire.
I think that's a lottery ticket.
Like
So to me self-publishing is nota platform.
It's a reason to build aplatform.
And in fact, in some ways you'redoing that even more
independently.
And also once you do thatthough, then, you know, you
(35:54):
might get a look in, intotraditionally publishing.
If that's the direction that you, you choose or are interested
in going.
Sam Hiyate (35:59):
I think the example here is somebody like Rupi Kaur,
who self-published her book andthen realized that she had to
sell it and then started to goon Instagram and started to do a
bunch of things to promote herbook.
And built a platform to sell--specifically to sell her book.
But s he d id it.
She spent hours every day, everyweek consistently until I think,
(36:23):
she reached 10,000 or 12,000 copies sold.
And then, I think, a publishercame after and said, You sold
12,000 copies of aself-published book.
You're awesome.
We want to publish you-- becausethey saw what she was doing on
social media.
So self-publishing is successfulwhen it takes a certain kind of
person who has a kind ofbusiness s avvy and that in
(36:45):
fact, would be a good publisherto anybody.
They just h appen to bepublishing themselves.
Anne Sampson (36:49):
All right.
Well, thanks everyone for thegreat discussion on platform.
I think this was really--
Sam Hiyate (36:54):
I feel like we just got started
Kathryn Willms (36:58):
I know.
I was like, I need all of Anne'stips.
Tasneem Motala (37:01):
Like it's over?
Okay.
Anne Sampson (37:02):
We might need to have a platform, part two
discussion.
Kathryn Willms (37:07):
Absolutely.
Sam Hiyate (37:17):
OMG.
That's this week's show, folks.
Thanks to all our guests and ourproducer, Andrew Kaufman.
Most of all, thank you forlistening.
And remember to share the loveslash feedback and post your
thoughts and review us anywhereyou can-- as well, do subscribe
on SubStack, under the AgentProvocateur newsletter.
(37:38):
It's a companion piece to thepodcast and you can always reach
out to us with any feedback orthoughts via our website,
therightsfactory.com or ouragency socials until then see
you next week.
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