This week is all about the submission and review process. First, a panel on manuscript lengths with author/TRF editorial associate Amanda Sun and columnist, author and Dundurn Press editor, Russell Smith, moderated by TRF's own Kathryn Willms. Newly-minted agent Jennifer Chevais gives her tips on crafting a logline for your project, and in our final panel convo for the season, agent Stacey Kondla, author Kalena Miller, and former Wise Wolf Publisher Rachel Del Grosso discuss how far into a submission one reads, moderated by Sam Hiyate.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Hiyate (00:05):
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to season two, episodefive of Agent Provocateur.
Today on the show we examine thequestion every writer dares not
ask-- how far into your work doagents and editors read before
they pick up the phone and callyou?
Okay, that's your fantasy-- orprobably more realistically,
(00:28):
they just stop and move on.
Kalena Miller (00:30):
You-- you drop in the opposite direction.
Like there's no way they're evergonna read my book.
They have 30 million books thatthey're reading...
Sam Hiyate (00:37):
Assistant agent Jennifer Chevais gives us some
tips on crafting a greatlogline...
Jennifer Chevais (00:43):
You've got one sentence to get to your story's
essence.
Make every word count.
Sam Hiyate (00:49):
But first, agent Kathryn Willms hosts a panel
tackling a weighty issue.
Is manuscript word count simplya case of commerce or do
specific stories need specificlengths?
All that and more on today'sAgent Provocateur.
Kathryn Willms (01:29):
Hello, I'm Kathryn Willms and I'm an
associate agent at The RightsFactory, and I'm really excited
about today's panel.
Today we convene to answer Cosmomagazine's favorite question:
Does size matter?
By which of course we mean booklength.
Word count is the topic of manyconversations in this industry,
between various combinations ofagents, editors, writers, sales
(01:51):
teams, and readers.
And it's no surprise thatrecently it was a topic of
discussion on Twitter and bydiscussion of course, I mean a
low-key politely curiousconversation.
No, of course not.
People had thought-- as do I--this is a topic of which I have
a lot of strongly held opinionsthat completely contradict each
other.
So I'm so pleased we have anexcellent and multi-qualified
(02:12):
panel to weigh in on what's thedeal with word count.
And what does our preoccupationwith it say about our industry?
Russell Smith is a novelist, afreelance journalist and
cultural commentator, and aformer Globe columnist and CBC
radio host.
He is now an acquiring editor offiction and nonfiction at
Dundurn Press.
Hello R ussell.
Russell Smith (02:33):
Hi.
Kathryn Willms (02:34):
Amanda Sun is an author repped by Jabberwocky.
She previously worked atHarlequin and now we're thrilled
to have her on board as a TRFeditorial associate.
Welcome Amanda.
Amanda Sun (02:45):
Hi, great to be here.
Kathryn Willms (02:46):
So first let's get a quick on the ground report
from a Twitter follower whostayed abreast of this whole
conversation.
Amanda, can you tell us whathappened?
Amanda Sun (02:55):
Absolutely.
So as often happens, Twitter wasalight with some discussion this
past week, over of all thingsword count.
It all started when an editorcommented on how heartbreaking
it is to receive a stellarsubmission that doesn't fall
within the conventional wordcount, implying that on the
basis of word count alone, itmust be rejected.
Some of Twitter was quick toobject, saying a beautiful
(03:15):
moving work should be beyond aspecified word count, citing
classics such as The GreatGatsby, which at 47,000 words
comes in far under theconventional adult fiction range
of 80 to a hundred thousand now.
Others defended the word countranges, saying after all this is
a business and publishers needto not only afford to print the
books, but produce works thatreaders will recognize and
(03:37):
purchase.
There are many hot takes, andI'm excited to hear what this
panel thinks about this topic.
Kathryn Willms (03:41):
Awesome.
Thanks Amanda.
So Russell, let's start withyou.
Where do you fall on this issue?
How much does word count factorinto your interest in a project?
Russell Smith (03:50):
Well, first of all, I was completely unaware
that it was an issue.
I'm not on Twitter.
I didn't know about this.
The numbers that are beingthrown around in that
discussion, frankly, arecompletely foreign to my
experience as an acquiringeditor, and I'll go into detail
about the numbers in a minute.
But before I do, let me just saythat I think it's really
(04:13):
interesting to point out thatthe original editor who posted
the comments that werecontroversial on Twitter, who
was saying she would only lookat, books that were, I think,
between 80 and a hundredthousand words long-- which are
numbers far longer than I wouldnormally toss around actually--
(04:34):
that she's working, I looked herup, she's working entirely in
genre fiction.
So she's talking about romance,mystery, fantasy horror and
science fiction and all thevarious combinations of those,
where word length seems to be apart of the genre.
(04:58):
And in literary fiction, wedon't have such strict
regulations at all.
Kathryn Willms (05:02):
So Russell, I think that's a really
interesting point.
Amanda, as a writer, where doesword count come into your
writing process and is itaffected by the genre in which
you write?
Amanda Sun (05:15):
Well you see, I hadn't really thought about that
because I am a genre writer andalso YA writer and word count is
really crucial.
I find that it's part oflearning the process as you are
wanting to be published, and youhave to learn all the different
conventions that you have tofollow.
There's, you know, reaching outto an agent-- they're not going
(05:35):
to look at your project if it's150,000 as a debut writer.
And it's part of learning theropes of what's expected of you
and starting that separationfrom art as a project versus for
itself or art that you want tothen publish as a business.
And so it's part of that sort oflearned convention for me.
It's also a very helpfulguidepost to me when I'm
(05:56):
writing, because you can sort oflook at the word count, say,
okay, I should be at this storybeat.
Now I should be wrapping thingsup here.
And, so it can actually be avery useful tool.
But I think it really says a lotabout, do you understand, the
conventions of the genre by theword count that you're
submitting to your editor or toyour agent,
Russell Smith (06:18):
Which is really very much what I'm saying,
because the word conventionsthere is crucial.
Genre depends on conventions.
And so, if you're trying to notworry about conventions-- or
even to exclude them entirely--then some of those
considerations about word count,fall by the wayside.
(06:41):
Do want to get into some nittygritty?
Like can we actually talk aboutnumbers here?
Kathryn Willms (06:45):
Go ahead.
Russell Smith (06:46):
Okay.
So, the editor who first startedthis conversation going, talking
on Twitter, said, oh, she's alsodisappointed when she gets books
c oming between 50 and 70,000words long.
She's talking novels, this isfiction we're talking about.
Because they're too short.
That made my eyes bug o ut o fmy head because we are really
(07:09):
for literary fiction inparticular, I a m actually
actively looking for around t he60,000-word length and I would
go as low as about 45.
45 is about our cutoff for howshort it could be, which is a
novella-length there.
It would be hard for me to pushpast the accountant at my
(07:32):
publishing house.
A book that's so short, 45,000,because their conventional views
that say that, people aren'tgoing to be willing to shell out
for a short book, because wehave to charge almost as much
for it as we do for a longerbook and people are gonna feel t
hat they're, ripped off.
But I c ould make the case thatit's a powerful work o f
literature.
It needs to be published andliterary people will buy it
(07:53):
regardless of the price-- and Ican usually get that through.
We're talking now though aboutpublishing even shorter books,
as an experiment, you know, inorder in Ontario for an Ontario
publisher to get the Ontario taxcredit, which we need to publish
a book, a book needs to be 48pages long.
(08:16):
And so technically it'spossible.
We're actually thinking aboutdoing it.
The editor who started this ballrolling said, Oh, she's looking
for works that are up over ahundred thousand.
My heart sinks, when I get asubmission that's over a hundred
thousand words, for fiction inparticularly, biographies and
journalistic nonfiction are adifferent question because they
(08:38):
have to go into depth onsubjects and they can be long.
And honestly we're just about topublish a 700 page biography--
that's a work of scholarship, soit has to be that long.
But for work of fiction,literary fiction, if it's
something well over a hundredthousand words long, I'm
immediately suspicious thatthere are bits in it that are
(08:59):
repetitive and I'd be looking tocut them out.
I'm skeptical before I evenstart.
Kathryn Willms (09:04):
Right.
And so would you call literaryfiction a genre of its own, with
its own conventions?
Russell Smith (09:10):
No, I wouldn't.
I would distinguish betweenliterature and genre fiction
because the very thing aboutgenre fiction is it relies on,
as Amanda said, convention.
So it relies on certain tropesand certain expectations which
must be met and-- the very-- andthat's what defines all genre.
(09:30):
And I would say that whatdefines literary fiction is that
it does not belong to a genre.
Kathryn Willms (09:34):
Yeah.
So I think from an agentperspective, you know, I think
in some ways I'm in betweenthese two worlds a little bit,
because, and so I'm signing awide variety.
I have authors, you know, thatI've only ever seen three
chapters of their work.
I have authors who-- I have oneauthor who's doubled the normal,
conventional size of amanuscript that I've taken on.
I have authors who are potentialauthors.
(09:55):
They have not yet actuallywritten anything that I'm, you
know, sort of aligning myselfwith.
Because I think they shouldwrite a book.
So obviously it doesn'tdetermine the acquisitions, but
it's something I'm veryconscious of when it comes to
submissions to places likeDundurn and other places.
I just don't want to put editorsin position where they're going
to say no.
And I think a thing that I thinkwe're agreeing on, Russell, is
(10:18):
I'm also like if, if they'reoutside of sort of any sort of
conventional word count, I wantit to be a selling feature of
the book, not a problem that youhave to overlook.
I want to be like, Look, it's561,000 words and it's called
War and Peace.
And like, for it to live up tothe billing, right?
Like that's the-- you know--that's a pitch.
(10:38):
Or a very similar thing youcould do for, you know, Harry
Potter and the Order of thePhoenix, which did you know, at
257,000 words, is longer thanMoby Dick.
So I did do my half-ass Internetresearch for this podcast.
But the point is, I'm just goingto say that, you know, for most
project, you're not gonna dothat.
(10:58):
And I do think there's a lot ofgood reasons for that.
Some of which you've alreadyalluded to, Russell.
So I guess maybe the nextquestion I have, you know, are
word count preferences intrinsicor extrinsic?
Is it a question of outsideforces like genre conventions,
paper costs, productionramifications, or is it more of
a personal preference or tied tothe specific story?
(11:20):
What do you think, Amanda?
Amanda Sun (11:22):
Well, first I'd like to go back to what you said
about Harry Potter-- the lengthof the word count there.
That again is an establishedauthor starting to get away with
more and more with each book andthe same with The Song o f Ice a
nd Fire.
They get progressively longerbecause the audience is
trusting, the people want thelong book, they've proven
themselves.
It's the same idea as whenyou're-- you have to learn how
(11:44):
to write first, and then you canbreak the rules.
You have to prove that you knowhow to write first, within the
established word count, I think,before you can start breaking
the word count rules.
And I think it's really truewhen it comes to acquisitions,
or trying to find an agent.
A lot of agents are going todismiss you if you have a word
(12:05):
count outside what's expected.
And there's two reasons forthat.
One, they're going to think thatyou haven't learned what is
expected of the genre.
And the second is they're goingto think maybe you don't know
how to kill your darlings andcut down to what is really,
truly, deserving to be in thestory.
And so that's going to cause alittle bit of apprehension.
Oh, is this writer somewhere intheir writing path where I can
(12:26):
work with them yet?
So I think there is that sort ofbuilt in bias at first and
you're saying, Well, I don'twanna miss anything, but there
are a lot of automaticrejections that are happening,
just right off the word count.
Russell Smith (12:37):
Well, yeah, I think Amanda is absolutely
right, that if someone is a veryestablished author, I'm going to
look at something of any wordcount.
Somebody is an unpublishedauthor I've never read before
and they submit a 500,000 wordmanuscript, it's kind of a
non-starter because the costs inprinting that, would be so great
that the risk, the financialrisk, would be too great.
And if the writer hasn't provenhim or herself, then the risk is
(13:01):
-- we just can't take it.
So for me, yes, only with reallyreally long books would I
automatically dismiss somethinglike that.
Kathryn Willms (13:10):
I did some math for this podcast and, for, Atlas
Shrugged is 562,000 words.
So for a regular copyedit 1200words per hour, at$40 an hour,
it would take an editor 468hours and they would charge
$19,000 dollars for it.
And I think that that is for onetiny bit of process.
(13:32):
And I just think that sometimesauthors are not always aware,
like there's a sunk cost.
It's like Bitcoin.
Like it shouldn't be the primaryissue, but it really does in
fact becomes untenable at somepoint.
Russell Smith (13:45):
I know an author who complains that editors
always want him to write muchlonger than he likes to write.
And I think we should toleratethe short, particularly in
literary fiction, much more.
Amanda Sun (13:58):
It's funny because that does happen to me in mine.
I tend to turn in a shorterfirst draft and I do sometimes
get a little bit of prejudice,saying, Oh, well, this isn't
long enough for a fantasy.
But part of my editing processis adding in that extra 20,000
or 30,000 words and seeing whereI need to add more story.
And I, for my writing, it worksa lot better than having to cut
large portions of writing.
(14:19):
So I think everyone is differentin that case.
Kathryn Willms (14:22):
Yeah, I think I would definitely agree.
You know, I think as an editoror as an agent often, you know,
almost anything will benefitfrom cutting, and just
crystallizes the ideas and youend up most often with a better
work of art.
So maybe you just quickly-- doyou wish word count didn't
matter?
Any thoughts on that?
Russell Smith (14:43):
I wish all economic considerations didn't
matter.
Kathryn Willms (14:46):
There you go.
Russell Smith (14:47):
But unfortunately they do.
Amanda Sun (14:49):
I think it's disingenuous to write a story to
a certain word count just to fitin.
It has to matter to the story atthe end of the day and your
readers will know if you're justadding things for the sake of
adding or taking away, and nottelling the whole story.
It has to come across asgenuine, but of course there's
also, you know, no reason thatyou can't genuinely write within
the word count.
Kathryn Willms (15:10):
Thank you so much, everyone.
It was a pleasure to discuss,book size with you all.
Amanda Sun (15:16):
Thank you.
Russell Smith (15:16):
Thank you.
Kathryn Willms (15:17):
Thank you so much.
That was Russell Smith,acquiring editor at Dundurn
Press and Amanda Sun, author ofthe Paper God series.
Sam Hiyate (15:34):
Loglines, borrowed from the film and TV world, are
becoming more and more importantin pitching books.
Jennifer Chevais gives us fivetips to make your loglines sing.
Jennifer Chevais (15:51):
My name is Jennifer Chevais, assistant
agent at The Rights Factory.
And today I want to talk aboutloglines.
Picture it, we're in thepost-pandemic world.
You're at a conference mingling,and you find yourself
face-to-face with an agent oreditor.
If you're lucky, they'll ask youto pitch them your story.
Or, you want to participate in apitch event on Twitter.
(16:12):
You've got 280 characters foryour comps, otherwise known as
comparable titles, and aone-sentence pitch for your
story.
We could also call this pitch alogline.
So what's a logline?
Loglines are a brief summary ofyour story with an emotional
hook.
The term can be tied to the TVand film industries, but they
make a lot of sense for the bookindustry too.
(16:35):
For example, The Hunger Gamescould be: a young woman
volunteers to replace her littlesister as tribute, saving her
from playing a deadly televisedevent, pitting young people from
different districts against eachother.
Is the logline for yourmanuscript ready?
Here are five tips to nailingyour logline.
(16:55):
One-- look at your story like areporter would: what's the who,
what, where, when, why and how.
Two-- what does your maincharacter want?
And why does that matter?
Three-- is your story ominous oris it light?
What kind of words make thatobvious?
Four-- you've got one sentenceto get to your story's essence.
(17:21):
Make every word count.
Remember that the logline is thebait to reel decision makers in.
Five-- now practice it, outloud.
Is it easy to say on the fly?
Does it sound weird in yourhead?
Are you stumbling over thewords?
If you feel uncomfortable sayingit, it could be uncomfortable
hearing or reading it.
(17:43):
If it takes you 31 tries to getit right, that's okay.
As you're crafting your logline,remember that agents are looking
at the long game.
We want to see manuscriptsadapted to the screen.
By putting together a logline,you've now got a hot little
marketing tool that'll work inyour favor.
You'll be ready when you findyourself face to face with one
(18:04):
of us at a conference.
And I don't know about you, butI can hardly wait for that to
finally happen.
Sam Hiyate (18:20):
It's no secret that writers can literally take
months to work on their pitches,but the even bigger issue is do
agents and editors even read thewhole thing?
To explore the idea of how faragents and editors read before
they stop-- and how you can getthem to keep reading-- ideally
right to the end, we'veassembled this panel.
(18:42):
Also, between the time werecorded the panel and its
airing, Rachel Del Rosso, one ofthe panelists has left Wise Wolf
Books.
Hello everybody.
Today we have an amazing YApanel.
And the question we're askingeverybody is how much of a
(19:05):
submission do we actually read?
So, first up we have the personwho came up with this concept,
who is Stacy Kondla, agent atThe Rights Factory.
Stacey Kondla (19:19):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (19:20):
Hey Stacy.
It's good to see you again.
It's been a while-- we missedyou on the podcast.
I'm happy to have you back.
We also have today, KalenaMiller, one of Stacy's authors
and the author of the YA debutnovel just out, The Night When
No One Had Sex, which soundslike a pretty good title,
actually.
Kalena Miller (19:41):
Hi, thank you.
Sam Hiyate (19:44):
And, last but not least, we have a publisher,
somebody from the other side andthis is Rachel Del Grosso, the
publisher of Wise WolfPublishing.
Rachel Del Grosso (19:56):
Hey Sam, thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate (19:58):
Okay.
So I want to start with, just asevery athlete has a pre-game
ritual, every agent and editormust have their own way of
approaching their emails andsubmissions in the morning.
You come in, you're like, Whatam I going to get today?
But before we get to, in thiscase, an agent, an editor, I
want to ask Kalena, the writer,what she, like, What do you
(20:20):
think that the editors and theagents are doing?
Because I k now, I mean, yousubmit, you press send.
And you're like, Oh my God, Ireally want somebody to fall in
love with my book.
that I've wrecked two years ofmy life trying to write.
Kalena Miller (20:33):
Right?
Like I can't wait until ninemonths from now when I hear
something.
I don't know.
It's always interesting becauseI always, you know, like we all
think we're the center of theuniverse.
And so I'm always imagininglike, you know, you've gotta be
at the top of somebody's to-dolist, of course.
Right?
And then I'll see agents oreditors tweet, like how many
submissions they got that month.
(20:54):
And it's just like anoverwhelming number.
And then it's like, you drop inthe opposite direction.
Like there's no way they're evergoing to read my book.
They have 30 million books thatthey're reading.
So I think this is a reallyinteresting question that I
think will be helpful forauthors to kind of think about
how quickly they do have to getsomebody's attention and how
(21:16):
much they have to hold ontotheir attention and keep them
interested.
Because I know obviously wespend forever reading our own
work.
Right?
And to imagine that you only get10 minutes-- I don't, I don't
know like that-- that's, that'sstressful to think about for
sure.
Sam Hiyate (21:34):
Well, you said 30 million, so let's go with that.
So Stacy, we'll start with you.
Do you, how many, what does yourinbox look like and, how do you
approach it?
Stacey Kondla (21:43):
Yeah, so I mean, my queries since the beginning
of the summer have been zerobecause I closed to submissions.
But before that, while I wasopen to submissions, you know, I
was getting probably five to 10a day, which is a lot.
Right?
And it's a lot to go through.
So--
Sam Hiyate (22:03):
But I mean, if it's a picture book, can't you just
like read it in a minute andsay, No,
Stacey Kondla (22:09):
Yes, I could.
But also it depends on what elseis going on in your day.
Right?
But when you're getting five to10 a day, you're not just
getting five to 10 picture booksa day.
Right.
You're getting all sorts ofprojects.
Sam Hiyate (22:21):
Yeah.
I'm just joking.
Stacey Kondla (22:23):
Yeah.
It can be a lot.
But my pre-game ritual basicallyis I really like to focus on
queries and give them theattention that they deserve.
And so I tend to not look atthem very much throughout my
work week because I'm distractedwith too many other things.
I'm doing client work, I'mhaving meetings with editors.
(22:44):
I don't have the head space forqueries throughout the work week
.
So I save my queries for Sundaymornings with my coffee, when I
can just devote my head space tothem.
That's my pre-game thing.
I'm up early Sunday morning.
I've got my coffee in one hand,my laptop on my lap and I'm
ready to go.
And I dig in from there.
Sam Hiyate (23:06):
Great.
And, Rachel, what's it like, youknow, you're the publisher, you
have this fast-growing company.
I can't even imagine what yourlife is like.
I mean, I know a little bit ofour side, on the agenting, but
what is it like for you?
Rachel Del Grosso (23:20):
So, you know, we're still relatively new,
right?
So right now, we're in arelatively unique position where
we're still sort of unknown in away, right?
So we're not, I'm not receivinghundreds of submissions a day.
I don't have email upon email.
Sam Hiyate (23:37):
Maybe you should never have agreed to come on
this podcast.
Because you might be, you mightbe getting those, after this
airs.
Rachel Del Grosso (23:45):
Yeah.
I mean, we should only be solucky.
Right.
But you know, so when asubmission comes in, it's pretty
likely, you know, I'm at leastglancing at the synopsis.
Almost quite, you know, almostright away.
And so, if something pops up inthe synopsis, I might shoot a
note to the publishing assistantand say, Hey, take a look at
(24:07):
this.
That, you know, it would bringit to her attention a little
quickly.
She's seeing them, you know, thepublishing assistant, seeing
them at the same time I'm seeingthem.
So we might kind of just flag,flag some that catch our
attention, and they might belooked at sooner than later.
And you know, if we get asubmission from an agent that
we've worked with before, we'reprobably going to look at that a
(24:27):
little quicker.
You know, at this point we dotry to look at submissions and
respond to them within 90 days.
There are times we can respond alittle bit sooner.
Sometimes it's a little bitlonger than that, but you know,
we try to respond as quickly aswe can.
Sam Hiyate (24:46):
I love your 90 days goal because I feel like it's
only maybe within this window ofyour-- the career of the
publisher-- that you have thatkind of grace.
And I feel like, I remember, youknow, talking to a big five
publisher.
And I said, you know, If youguys get unsolicited, how long
(25:09):
does it take to get back to them?
And they're like, well, once ina while we get an intern to just
clear the whole thing, but it'slike an intense, you know,
internship where somebody goesthrough everything.
And then if they catch some--once in a while, they'll flag
something, but you know, itcould be six months.
It could be a year.
So I think 90 days is a greatgoal.
That's really exciting.
Do you guys have any techniquesof dealing with overwhelm?
(25:33):
So let's start with, we justended with you Rachel, so let's
go back to Stacy.
So you've got your Sundaycoffee, you've gone through
stuff.
What happens when you feel thatsense that you're never gonna
get through everything?
How do you deal with that moment?
Stacey Kondla (25:49):
Yeah, so I feel like because I'm an agent and I
have Query Manager as my tool.
I have the added benefit that Ican just say, Okay, I'm drowning
in queries.
I'm overwhelmed.
I need to close so I can catchup.
I don't think that editors atpublishing houses have that same
(26:10):
liberty.
Right?
Like they typically just cannotclose to submissions.
Sam Hiyate (26:16):
Because what if they missed the next Harry Potter?
Stacey Kondla (26:21):
I know, but that being said, I know of at least
one, one publisher that hasclosed queries until the new
year, just because they are sodrowning submissions and you
know, some smaller presses onlyhave specific windows that you
can send in submissions.
Right.
So I mean, different publishersapproach it differently.
But as an agent, I just get tosay, okay, I'm overwhelmed.
(26:42):
I'm gonna close to queries sothat I can spend the next few
months just catching up on topof my client work.
I don't like to close to queriesbecause I also have FOMO.
I don't wanna miss out.
Right.
Sam Hiyate (26:57):
Oh, I know that feeling well.
And Rachel, what do you feelabout this?
So t seems like we got you atsuch a good time that you're
actually able to look at most ofthe stuff, but maybe we can get
more detail about that.
If you're not, you don't getoverwhelmed that you're like,
okay.
Oh my God, I can't deal with allthis.
You know, we need moreassistance.
We need a bigger team.
So how much-- are you in thatluxurious point where you can
(27:20):
actually read as much as youwant?
Or do you have some, are youstarting to put in place some
kind of rules?
Like if they don't get us in thefirst chapter or the first page,
like a lot of editors are, youknow, this, kind of strict, like
do you have any thoughts onthat, or any feedback or
anecdotes?
Rachel Del Grosso (27:41):
So, I mean, as I mentioned, we're pretty
new, we're not getting fivesubmissions a day.
You know, on a good week, wemight get 20, but in talking
about what would make me stopreading or keep reading.
I think one of the first thingsis if you start reading
(28:03):
something and you think Hmmm...
I've heard this before, right?
That's, that's a big no-no forme, right?
It's, it's one thing if you'rekind of emulating authors that
you look up to and whatnot, butyou still have to be telling
your own story, right.
Originality is still going to bekey.
And then something I've seen isthat sometimes authors seem to
(28:28):
be talking down to the readers,like the writing's coming from
this preachy place.
That'll definitely turn me off.
I won't read too long.
Another one of the big things,and I think this is maybe
something that differentiatesWise Wolf from bigger publishing
houses is that honestly, beforewe even look at a manuscript,
(28:52):
we're looking at the socialpresence of the author.
They don't need to havethousands and thousands of
followers.
But we want to see that they'reonline, that they're trying to
reach out to readers.
So, you know, if we come acrossa manuscript and there's zero
social media, it's unlikely thatwe're even going to look at it.
Sam Hiyate (29:17):
So you're saying that platform really, is that
important to you because you--is it because you feel like the
author needs to have a sense ofengagement with the world and
you're looking at social mediaas a measure of that?
Rachel Del Grosso (29:30):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, like I said, they don'tneed to have 20,000 followers,
but we want to see that they'reat least putting themselves out
there and trying, and especiallyin the YA genre.
I mean, you have to be on, youknow, Instagram or TikTok or
whatever it is.
You need to have a presence.
Sam Hiyate (29:49):
Okay.
I'm going to move over toKalena.
So, sorry.
Kalena, as an author, thisplatform thing is interesting,
but before we get to that, howdo you feel when you, you talked
about, you submitted and you'relike, Oh my God, is it gonna be
nine months?
I know-- and just in my dealingwith authors, I often have this
(30:09):
Tom Petty video that I send them, which is the waiting is the
hardest part.
And nobody knows how hard it isuntil the thing that they've
spent so much effort and timegiving me, and they're trusting
me to get it out.
And I tell them, it's out to theeditors.
Let's just fingers crossed.
This is the hard part.
We could hear back.
I mean, the fastest I've heardback is 24 hours.
(30:29):
Like Sam, we want to pre-emptit.
Oh my God, I wish has happenedto every submission.
But, and then of course theworst thing is what happens is
nothing.
So somewhere between a pre-empt,a fast pre-empt and nothing
happening, we have to manage ourexpectations.
So, I don't know if Stacy eversent you that Tom Petty video.
(30:50):
She might next time, just so youknow, but, so how do you feel
about this?
And then I want to ask aboutsocial media afterwards.
Kalena Miller (30:56):
Yeah.
Well, I'm a really impatientperson, like in all aspects of
life, which would seem like itwould, make it worse, but it
actually really just makes thisseem like yet another thing I'm
impatient about.
So it really doesn't affect myday-to-day that much, like I
refresh my email every fiveminutes just as a compulsion.
So it doesn't really change myday-to-day that much.
I will say for me, what's hardis knowing that some of them
(31:21):
will never respond, ever.
That's stressful.
Like if I knew that everybody,even if it's gonna take'em a
year, if I knew that everybodyat some point would respond,
then I think that would give mea little bit more comfort of
knowing like, okay, there's anend date where we can like close
this book literally andfiguratively.
But the fact that it cansometimes just seem to go on
(31:42):
forever and ever, and ever, andit's like, are they going to
respond?
And then Stacey follows up, andwe hear nada.
And I think that's kind offrustrating just because it's
like, I don't even know if, ifthey exist.
Sam Hiyate (31:54):
Well, at least they now know your secret, which is
The Night That No One Had Sex.
So in terms of social media, howdo you feel about that?
Are you actively trying to builda bigger platform or be more
engaging with your community?
Or are you just like, I'm tooexhausted by just the writing?
I can't do both.
Kalena Miller (32:15):
No, I do a lot of social media.
I really enjoy it.
For the most part.
I mean, not that like Twitterdoesn't make me want to pull my
hair out, but generallyspeaking, I'm on Twitter,
Instagram TikTok, used to be onTumblr, kind of use Facebook,
like, you know, any and all,right.
I think it is about like in theYA space, then yes, you're
(32:39):
connecting with readers, but Ithink what is also really
important is that kind of beingyour landing page, when someone
goes looking for you, likethey're not necessarily looking
for your website anymore,they're typing your name into
Instagram.
And so being a place where theycan see a little bit of who you
are and what you're like andwhat your vibe is and what
(33:01):
you're working on, is great.
Both for readers and for otherwriters or whoever in the world
trying to connect with you.
Right.
And so I think obviously ifpeople like despise social
media, then that's gonna bestressful.
But I think if you can find someplatform or some aspect of it
that you don't loathe, then likeexploit that for all you've got,
(33:23):
right.
Sam Hiyate (33:24):
Awesome.
So, I wanted, because we havethat rare moment where we have,
an agent and an author here.
I wanted to ask a bit about howyou guys connected in terms of
like submissions, reading, likeusing the frame of our topic
today.
Give me a bit of the story.
And I love the idea that you'reboth here, so feel free to
(33:44):
interrupt each other.
Let's just make it really messyand a good combo.
So who wants to start?
So let me start with you.
You wrote this query, you sentit to how many agents?
Kalena Miller (33:54):
A lot?
Well, I had queried one bookbefore, and I'd had a really
terrible experience with an--not an agent that I signed with
-- but she just like had allthese revise and resubmits, and
she just like led me on for areally long time.
And then that ended up likecrashing and burning.
Right.
And so I had this new projectand I queried it pretty widely.
(34:15):
Like--
Sam Hiyate (34:15):
Did you always have that great title because the
title had me at hello?
You know?
Kalena Miller (34:19):
Yeah.
Stacey Kondla (34:19):
No, that was the second book that we pitched.
There was a book that I signedKalena for that--
Sam Hiyate (34:26):
Oh my god, so there's more to the story than I
know.
Stacey Kondla (34:28):
Yeah, exactly.
So.
Sam Hiyate (34:29):
Okay.
Sorry.
Stacey Kondla (34:29):
Kalena, keep going.
Kalena Miller (34:30):
Oh right.
OK.
So then, this other book wasanother YA Rom-Com.
It was a little bit of a youngerYA, and so that is what Stacey
initially read.
And you liked in theory.
Sam Hiyate (34:42):
And did she have R and R notes for you or was she
just like, I want to work withyou, and you were like, I've
sent it to 50 other agents.
I need to think about this.
Kalena Miller (34:51):
It wasn't 50, but yeah, no, she, she liked it.
We talked about it.
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (34:57):
How did she win you over?
Kalena Miller (35:00):
Well, I was at Valley Fair, which is an
amusement park in Ohio and I gotthe email, and I was like
freaking out because she'd beena person who I thought was a
really good fit.
You know how there are someagents when you submit to them
and it's like, I feel like youwould like me, if you would like
actually read this.
Right.
And so Stacy was one of those.
And so it honestly didn't takethat much winning over because I
(35:20):
like kind of had a lot ofinformation going in.
I wasn't too hard to convince.
Sam Hiyate (35:27):
Stacey's like a hard riser.
If you look up Publisher'sMarketplace, I don't think
anybody at this agency's everdone the volume of deals in such
a short time that she has.
So that was a good call.
So Stacey, what was it like fromyour point of view, like getting
the pitch and knowing that therewas competition in terms of
agents?
Stacey Kondla (35:44):
Yeah.
So I mean, at that time, thatwas when I was just a brand new
agent with The Rights Factory.
Right.
And I was building my clientlist and I was getting a lot of
emails because I was stilltaking my queries through email
at that time, hadn't moved overto Query Manager yet.
And I got this query from Kalenaand I liked the title of the
(36:06):
project.
That's what grabbed myattention.
First of all, was the title.
And then I read the pitch andI'm like, Oh, this sounds like a
lot of fun.
Right.
Because the pitch itself hadquirky characters.
It had some humor.
It was about a destinationwedding, you know, like there
was just all, all this fun stuffgoing on.
(36:26):
So I opened up the manuscriptand started reading and didn't
stop.
I loved it.
Like I loved it.
And like to this day I weepinside that it hasn't found a
home.
Sam Hiyate (36:41):
I'm sure that could be easily be repositioned as
Kalena's third or fourth novelwhen she becomes famous and gets
that Netflix adaptation thatwe're all waiting for.
Stacey Kondla (36:50):
Yeah.
But I was really happy to havean opportunity to chat with
Kalena.
We got to know each other alittle bit over the phone and I
was able to offer representationand just really, really happy
that it worked out in the end.
Sam Hiyate (37:04):
Let's pause there, because this will be interesting
to our audience.
So you said, I want to rep you,I love this book.
You know, you've had thisconversation.
So Kalena, what did you do then?
You had somebody excited.
Did you-- It's kind of likedating, right?
You're like, wait, are we gonnabe exclusive now?
Because I think there might besome other fabulous people I
can't give up right now.
I don't know.
Kalena Miller (37:23):
I don't know.
I wasn't, I feel like maybe I'mlike this with dating too, but I
like knew what my-- I wantedgoing in.
You know what I mean?
So like it wasn't really likeshe was, there weren't really
anything that could be like ared flag or like, Oh, I need to
check with other people.
Right.
Like I had made my decisionbefore we got on the phone.
So it was a very easy decisionfor me because I'd already made
it.
Sam Hiyate (37:42):
Yeah.
That's so good.
I never heard this story, butI'm really happy that-- and
obviously I know you guys have asecond book that you've
announced that you're workingon.
So that worked out well.
So just so that Rachel doesn'tfeel cut out of this.
So Rachel, it wasn't me, it wasactually Natalie Kimber at The
Rights Factory who sent youRunaway Train.
Do you remember what it wasabout that story that got you?
Rachel Del Grosso (38:06):
So that was actually one of the very first
submissions that I got from anagent, which was really
exciting.
So, I mean it was set in thenineties, right?
So it's this grungy music sceneand everything, which was super
exciting to read about.
I mean the title right away,Runaway Train, you know, you're
(38:30):
thinking what's going on?
Sam Hiyate (38:31):
You thought of the song.
Rachel Del Grosso (38:32):
Yeah.
And so, you know, every chapteris titled after a song in the
nineties and it was just, it wasjust so-- the idea seemed so
original to me and, you know, Istarted reading and it was one
of those ones that I justcouldn't put down.
I mean, Lee, Matthew Goldberg,he's a great writer.
And we were just excited to havehim come onboard.
Sam Hiyate (38:58):
I think Natalie told me too, that you guys were so
bullish about it.
You were like, We want a series.
And it was like thisconversation with Lee.
Like I think for him it wasmaybe a one off, but then now, I
mean, it could be this greatseries that I know the second--
the third-- book, I think hejust finished.
So it's like, he's so fast.
I'm just so impressed that youguys saw that-- had that vision
(39:18):
going into it.
So that was impressive.
Are series something that you'relooking for?
Rachel Del Grosso (39:23):
Yeah.
We definitely, you know, ourparent company, Wolf Pack
Publishing, that's what we'vekind of built our backlist on
and everything.
Right.
We really know how to sell theseries.
So yeah, when we got thissubmission of Runaway Train, I
mean, it was pretty obvious.
We're like, yeah, this could bea series-- it has great
potential.
(39:43):
And we did release a second book, Grenade Bouquets, and then,
yeah, he did just finish writingthe third book and that will be
coming out the first quarter of2022.
Sam Hiyate (39:55):
I have one last question for everybody and that
is so we just, I feel, I mean,maybe I'm an optimist, but I
feel we're coming out a littlebit out of the pandemic.
What do we think?
What do we think about this?
Do you guys have any thoughtsabout the future of like this
kind of process of writing,submitting, reading, responding.
(40:16):
I'll just go through everybodyone after another.
So let's start with Stacey.
What are your thoughts on this?
Stacey Kondla (40:22):
Yeah, I don't think that things are going to
get faster anytime soon.
Honestly, I feel like we allneed to be preparing ourselves
to wait, even though it's thehardest part.
Sam Hiyate (40:36):
So cue Tom Petty,
Stacey Kondla (40:37):
Exactly.
Sam Hiyate (40:39):
Kalena, any thoughts, any thoughts from your
point of view?
Kalena Miller (40:41):
I mean, Stacy sold two of my books during the
pandemic, so I don't feel toobadly about it.
And the one we submitted beforethe pandemic didn't sell.
So like--
Sam Hiyate (40:50):
Maybe you're just a brilliant writer.
Kalena Miller (40:51):
Yeah.
That, that must be it.
Stacey Kondla (40:52):
Super brilliant.
(40:52):
I mean, no, I mean, I know things are trending longer, but
like what?
To me it's like, well, what'sthe difference between six
months and nine months?
Like very little so, I don'tknow.
Sam Hiyate (41:04):
Because you're impatient anyway, like you said
in the beginning.
Kalena Miller (41:06):
I don't, you know, on the micro level then I
don't feel that much differentabout it.
Sam Hiyate (41:14):
That's such a funny way of looking at the world.
I just think of you.
It's like, Well, it's gonna takea week to get a response or nine
months, which-- each one wouldprobably be just as frustrating.
So I don't really care, buthonestly that's really awesome.
Rachel, any, so for you, Iimagine as time goes on and your
company becomes more establishedand you have more books like,
(41:37):
Lee Matthew Goldberg series, andother YA books coming out,
you're going to get morepitches.
You're gonna get more agents.
You're gonna get more agentsbugging you saying, Hey, we got,
you know, we have otherinterest.
Do you want to come in on anauction for this book and your
stakes are going to get higher.
What do you think you're goingto-- how do you think you're
going to respond to this?
Or do you have any plans for thefuture?
Rachel Del Grosso (41:59):
If that happened, we'd probably have to
bring on more people to belooking at submissions.
Because right now, yeah, it'stwo of us.
If we, you know, hopefully we doget to that point where it's,
we're taking a year to respond.
I mean, that would mean we'redoing something right.
So I give myself a little pat onthe back.
Sam Hiyate (42:17):
You have millions of queries in your inbox.
Rachel Del Grosso (42:19):
Right.
Sam Hiyate (42:23):
Okay.
Well, so good to chat with allyou guys today.
Thanks for being on our panel.
We're so grateful and good luckon everybody's books.
I'm excited to see where yourbook goes.
I know Stacey, you're stillpitching your guts out and
Rachel, I'm sure you're readingaway and you're probably gonna
have to decide when you're gonnastop for the year and say that's
(42:45):
i t, this is going to be r eadnext year.
Rachel Del Grosso (42:46):
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (42:48):
Okay.
Thanks.
And bye everyone.
Rachel Del Grosso (42:49):
Thank you.
Kalena Miller (42:50):
Thank you.
Stacey Kondla (42:51):
Thanks, Sam.
Sam Hiyate (43:03):
Another Agent Provocateur episode done.
If you've made it this far, weonly have a lot of love for you.
As you know, we love gettingattention.
Thanks to all the TRF staff, allof our guests, and our producer,
Andrew Kaufman.
By the way, I know I've askedall of you to keep rating and
reviewing us, online.
And so far after some profoundlydeep investigations, I've only
(43:27):
found one person who's rated usa one on Apple Podcasts.
So we're one for one, how's thatfor an agent spin on it.
See you next week for the lastepisode of season two, as we
respond to your brief audiopitches.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to season two, episodefive of Agent Provocateur.
Today on the show we examine thequestion every writer dares not
ask-- how far into your work doagents and editors read before
they pick up the phone and callyou?
Okay, that's your fantasy-- orprobably more realistically,
(00:28):
they just stop and move on.
Kalena Miller (00:30):
You-- you drop in the opposite direction.
Like there's no way they're evergonna read my book.
They have 30 million books thatthey're reading...
Sam Hiyate (00:37):
Assistant agent Jennifer Chevais gives us some
tips on crafting a greatlogline...
Jennifer Chevais (00:43):
You've got one sentence to get to your story's
essence.
Make every word count.
Sam Hiyate (00:49):
But first, agent Kathryn Willms hosts a panel
tackling a weighty issue.
Is manuscript word count simplya case of commerce or do
specific stories need specificlengths?
All that and more on today'sAgent Provocateur.
Kathryn Willms (01:29):
Hello, I'm Kathryn Willms and I'm an
associate agent at The RightsFactory, and I'm really excited
about today's panel.
Today we convene to answer Cosmomagazine's favorite question:
Does size matter?
By which of course we mean booklength.
Word count is the topic of manyconversations in this industry,
between various combinations ofagents, editors, writers, sales
(01:51):
teams, and readers.
And it's no surprise thatrecently it was a topic of
discussion on Twitter and bydiscussion of course, I mean a
low-key politely curiousconversation.
No, of course not.
People had thought-- as do I--this is a topic of which I have
a lot of strongly held opinionsthat completely contradict each
other.
So I'm so pleased we have anexcellent and multi-qualified
(02:12):
panel to weigh in on what's thedeal with word count.
And what does our preoccupationwith it say about our industry?
Russell Smith is a novelist, afreelance journalist and
cultural commentator, and aformer Globe columnist and CBC
radio host.
He is now an acquiring editor offiction and nonfiction at
Dundurn Press.
Hello R ussell.
Russell Smith (02:33):
Hi.
Kathryn Willms (02:34):
Amanda Sun is an author repped by Jabberwocky.
She previously worked atHarlequin and now we're thrilled
to have her on board as a TRFeditorial associate.
Welcome Amanda.
Amanda Sun (02:45):
Hi, great to be here.
Kathryn Willms (02:46):
So first let's get a quick on the ground report
from a Twitter follower whostayed abreast of this whole
conversation.
Amanda, can you tell us whathappened?
Amanda Sun (02:55):
Absolutely.
So as often happens, Twitter wasalight with some discussion this
past week, over of all thingsword count.
It all started when an editorcommented on how heartbreaking
it is to receive a stellarsubmission that doesn't fall
within the conventional wordcount, implying that on the
basis of word count alone, itmust be rejected.
Some of Twitter was quick toobject, saying a beautiful
(03:15):
moving work should be beyond aspecified word count, citing
classics such as The GreatGatsby, which at 47,000 words
comes in far under theconventional adult fiction range
of 80 to a hundred thousand now.
Others defended the word countranges, saying after all this is
a business and publishers needto not only afford to print the
books, but produce works thatreaders will recognize and
(03:37):
purchase.
There are many hot takes, andI'm excited to hear what this
panel thinks about this topic.
Kathryn Willms (03:41):
Awesome.
Thanks Amanda.
So Russell, let's start withyou.
Where do you fall on this issue?
How much does word count factorinto your interest in a project?
Russell Smith (03:50):
Well, first of all, I was completely unaware
that it was an issue.
I'm not on Twitter.
I didn't know about this.
The numbers that are beingthrown around in that
discussion, frankly, arecompletely foreign to my
experience as an acquiringeditor, and I'll go into detail
about the numbers in a minute.
But before I do, let me just saythat I think it's really
(04:13):
interesting to point out thatthe original editor who posted
the comments that werecontroversial on Twitter, who
was saying she would only lookat, books that were, I think,
between 80 and a hundredthousand words long-- which are
numbers far longer than I wouldnormally toss around actually--
(04:34):
that she's working, I looked herup, she's working entirely in
genre fiction.
So she's talking about romance,mystery, fantasy horror and
science fiction and all thevarious combinations of those,
where word length seems to be apart of the genre.
(04:58):
And in literary fiction, wedon't have such strict
regulations at all.
Kathryn Willms (05:02):
So Russell, I think that's a really
interesting point.
Amanda, as a writer, where doesword count come into your
writing process and is itaffected by the genre in which
you write?
Amanda Sun (05:15):
Well you see, I hadn't really thought about that
because I am a genre writer andalso YA writer and word count is
really crucial.
I find that it's part oflearning the process as you are
wanting to be published, and youhave to learn all the different
conventions that you have tofollow.
There's, you know, reaching outto an agent-- they're not going
(05:35):
to look at your project if it's150,000 as a debut writer.
And it's part of learning theropes of what's expected of you
and starting that separationfrom art as a project versus for
itself or art that you want tothen publish as a business.
And so it's part of that sort oflearned convention for me.
It's also a very helpfulguidepost to me when I'm
(05:56):
writing, because you can sort oflook at the word count, say,
okay, I should be at this storybeat.
Now I should be wrapping thingsup here.
And, so it can actually be avery useful tool.
But I think it really says a lotabout, do you understand, the
conventions of the genre by theword count that you're
submitting to your editor or toyour agent,
Russell Smith (06:18):
Which is really very much what I'm saying,
because the word conventionsthere is crucial.
Genre depends on conventions.
And so, if you're trying to notworry about conventions-- or
even to exclude them entirely--then some of those
considerations about word count,fall by the wayside.
(06:41):
Do want to get into some nittygritty?
Like can we actually talk aboutnumbers here?
Kathryn Willms (06:45):
Go ahead.
Russell Smith (06:46):
Okay.
So, the editor who first startedthis conversation going, talking
on Twitter, said, oh, she's alsodisappointed when she gets books
c oming between 50 and 70,000words long.
She's talking novels, this isfiction we're talking about.
Because they're too short.
That made my eyes bug o ut o fmy head because we are really
(07:09):
for literary fiction inparticular, I a m actually
actively looking for around t he60,000-word length and I would
go as low as about 45.
45 is about our cutoff for howshort it could be, which is a
novella-length there.
It would be hard for me to pushpast the accountant at my
(07:32):
publishing house.
A book that's so short, 45,000,because their conventional views
that say that, people aren'tgoing to be willing to shell out
for a short book, because wehave to charge almost as much
for it as we do for a longerbook and people are gonna feel t
hat they're, ripped off.
But I c ould make the case thatit's a powerful work o f
literature.
It needs to be published andliterary people will buy it
(07:53):
regardless of the price-- and Ican usually get that through.
We're talking now though aboutpublishing even shorter books,
as an experiment, you know, inorder in Ontario for an Ontario
publisher to get the Ontario taxcredit, which we need to publish
a book, a book needs to be 48pages long.
(08:16):
And so technically it'spossible.
We're actually thinking aboutdoing it.
The editor who started this ballrolling said, Oh, she's looking
for works that are up over ahundred thousand.
My heart sinks, when I get asubmission that's over a hundred
thousand words, for fiction inparticularly, biographies and
journalistic nonfiction are adifferent question because they
(08:38):
have to go into depth onsubjects and they can be long.
And honestly we're just about topublish a 700 page biography--
that's a work of scholarship, soit has to be that long.
But for work of fiction,literary fiction, if it's
something well over a hundredthousand words long, I'm
immediately suspicious thatthere are bits in it that are
(08:59):
repetitive and I'd be looking tocut them out.
I'm skeptical before I evenstart.
Kathryn Willms (09:04):
Right.
And so would you call literaryfiction a genre of its own, with
its own conventions?
Russell Smith (09:10):
No, I wouldn't.
I would distinguish betweenliterature and genre fiction
because the very thing aboutgenre fiction is it relies on,
as Amanda said, convention.
So it relies on certain tropesand certain expectations which
must be met and-- the very-- andthat's what defines all genre.
(09:30):
And I would say that whatdefines literary fiction is that
it does not belong to a genre.
Kathryn Willms (09:34):
Yeah.
So I think from an agentperspective, you know, I think
in some ways I'm in betweenthese two worlds a little bit,
because, and so I'm signing awide variety.
I have authors, you know, thatI've only ever seen three
chapters of their work.
I have authors who-- I have oneauthor who's doubled the normal,
conventional size of amanuscript that I've taken on.
I have authors who are potentialauthors.
(09:55):
They have not yet actuallywritten anything that I'm, you
know, sort of aligning myselfwith.
Because I think they shouldwrite a book.
So obviously it doesn'tdetermine the acquisitions, but
it's something I'm veryconscious of when it comes to
submissions to places likeDundurn and other places.
I just don't want to put editorsin position where they're going
to say no.
And I think a thing that I thinkwe're agreeing on, Russell, is
(10:18):
I'm also like if, if they'reoutside of sort of any sort of
conventional word count, I wantit to be a selling feature of
the book, not a problem that youhave to overlook.
I want to be like, Look, it's561,000 words and it's called
War and Peace.
And like, for it to live up tothe billing, right?
Like that's the-- you know--that's a pitch.
(10:38):
Or a very similar thing youcould do for, you know, Harry
Potter and the Order of thePhoenix, which did you know, at
257,000 words, is longer thanMoby Dick.
So I did do my half-ass Internetresearch for this podcast.
But the point is, I'm just goingto say that, you know, for most
project, you're not gonna dothat.
(10:58):
And I do think there's a lot ofgood reasons for that.
Some of which you've alreadyalluded to, Russell.
So I guess maybe the nextquestion I have, you know, are
word count preferences intrinsicor extrinsic?
Is it a question of outsideforces like genre conventions,
paper costs, productionramifications, or is it more of
a personal preference or tied tothe specific story?
(11:20):
What do you think, Amanda?
Amanda Sun (11:22):
Well, first I'd like to go back to what you said
about Harry Potter-- the lengthof the word count there.
That again is an establishedauthor starting to get away with
more and more with each book andthe same with The Song o f Ice a
nd Fire.
They get progressively longerbecause the audience is
trusting, the people want thelong book, they've proven
themselves.
It's the same idea as whenyou're-- you have to learn how
(11:44):
to write first, and then you canbreak the rules.
You have to prove that you knowhow to write first, within the
established word count, I think,before you can start breaking
the word count rules.
And I think it's really truewhen it comes to acquisitions,
or trying to find an agent.
A lot of agents are going todismiss you if you have a word
(12:05):
count outside what's expected.
And there's two reasons forthat.
One, they're going to think thatyou haven't learned what is
expected of the genre.
And the second is they're goingto think maybe you don't know
how to kill your darlings andcut down to what is really,
truly, deserving to be in thestory.
And so that's going to cause alittle bit of apprehension.
Oh, is this writer somewhere intheir writing path where I can
(12:26):
work with them yet?
So I think there is that sort ofbuilt in bias at first and
you're saying, Well, I don'twanna miss anything, but there
are a lot of automaticrejections that are happening,
just right off the word count.
Russell Smith (12:37):
Well, yeah, I think Amanda is absolutely
right, that if someone is a veryestablished author, I'm going to
look at something of any wordcount.
Somebody is an unpublishedauthor I've never read before
and they submit a 500,000 wordmanuscript, it's kind of a
non-starter because the costs inprinting that, would be so great
that the risk, the financialrisk, would be too great.
And if the writer hasn't provenhim or herself, then the risk is
(13:01):
-- we just can't take it.
So for me, yes, only with reallyreally long books would I
automatically dismiss somethinglike that.
Kathryn Willms (13:10):
I did some math for this podcast and, for, Atlas
Shrugged is 562,000 words.
So for a regular copyedit 1200words per hour, at$40 an hour,
it would take an editor 468hours and they would charge
$19,000 dollars for it.
And I think that that is for onetiny bit of process.
(13:32):
And I just think that sometimesauthors are not always aware,
like there's a sunk cost.
It's like Bitcoin.
Like it shouldn't be the primaryissue, but it really does in
fact becomes untenable at somepoint.
Russell Smith (13:45):
I know an author who complains that editors
always want him to write muchlonger than he likes to write.
And I think we should toleratethe short, particularly in
literary fiction, much more.
Amanda Sun (13:58):
It's funny because that does happen to me in mine.
I tend to turn in a shorterfirst draft and I do sometimes
get a little bit of prejudice,saying, Oh, well, this isn't
long enough for a fantasy.
But part of my editing processis adding in that extra 20,000
or 30,000 words and seeing whereI need to add more story.
And I, for my writing, it worksa lot better than having to cut
large portions of writing.
(14:19):
So I think everyone is differentin that case.
Kathryn Willms (14:22):
Yeah, I think I would definitely agree.
You know, I think as an editoror as an agent often, you know,
almost anything will benefitfrom cutting, and just
crystallizes the ideas and youend up most often with a better
work of art.
So maybe you just quickly-- doyou wish word count didn't
matter?
Any thoughts on that?
Russell Smith (14:43):
I wish all economic considerations didn't
matter.
Kathryn Willms (14:46):
There you go.
Russell Smith (14:47):
But unfortunately they do.
Amanda Sun (14:49):
I think it's disingenuous to write a story to
a certain word count just to fitin.
It has to matter to the story atthe end of the day and your
readers will know if you're justadding things for the sake of
adding or taking away, and nottelling the whole story.
It has to come across asgenuine, but of course there's
also, you know, no reason thatyou can't genuinely write within
the word count.
Kathryn Willms (15:10):
Thank you so much, everyone.
It was a pleasure to discuss,book size with you all.
Amanda Sun (15:16):
Thank you.
Russell Smith (15:16):
Thank you.
Kathryn Willms (15:17):
Thank you so much.
That was Russell Smith,acquiring editor at Dundurn
Press and Amanda Sun, author ofthe Paper God series.
Sam Hiyate (15:34):
Loglines, borrowed from the film and TV world, are
becoming more and more importantin pitching books.
Jennifer Chevais gives us fivetips to make your loglines sing.
Jennifer Chevais (15:51):
My name is Jennifer Chevais, assistant
agent at The Rights Factory.
And today I want to talk aboutloglines.
Picture it, we're in thepost-pandemic world.
You're at a conference mingling,and you find yourself
face-to-face with an agent oreditor.
If you're lucky, they'll ask youto pitch them your story.
Or, you want to participate in apitch event on Twitter.
(16:12):
You've got 280 characters foryour comps, otherwise known as
comparable titles, and aone-sentence pitch for your
story.
We could also call this pitch alogline.
So what's a logline?
Loglines are a brief summary ofyour story with an emotional
hook.
The term can be tied to the TVand film industries, but they
make a lot of sense for the bookindustry too.
(16:35):
For example, The Hunger Gamescould be: a young woman
volunteers to replace her littlesister as tribute, saving her
from playing a deadly televisedevent, pitting young people from
different districts against eachother.
Is the logline for yourmanuscript ready?
Here are five tips to nailingyour logline.
(16:55):
One-- look at your story like areporter would: what's the who,
what, where, when, why and how.
Two-- what does your maincharacter want?
And why does that matter?
Three-- is your story ominous oris it light?
What kind of words make thatobvious?
Four-- you've got one sentenceto get to your story's essence.
(17:21):
Make every word count.
Remember that the logline is thebait to reel decision makers in.
Five-- now practice it, outloud.
Is it easy to say on the fly?
Does it sound weird in yourhead?
Are you stumbling over thewords?
If you feel uncomfortable sayingit, it could be uncomfortable
hearing or reading it.
(17:43):
If it takes you 31 tries to getit right, that's okay.
As you're crafting your logline,remember that agents are looking
at the long game.
We want to see manuscriptsadapted to the screen.
By putting together a logline,you've now got a hot little
marketing tool that'll work inyour favor.
You'll be ready when you findyourself face to face with one
(18:04):
of us at a conference.
And I don't know about you, butI can hardly wait for that to
finally happen.
Sam Hiyate (18:20):
It's no secret that writers can literally take
months to work on their pitches,but the even bigger issue is do
agents and editors even read thewhole thing?
To explore the idea of how faragents and editors read before
they stop-- and how you can getthem to keep reading-- ideally
right to the end, we'veassembled this panel.
(18:42):
Also, between the time werecorded the panel and its
airing, Rachel Del Rosso, one ofthe panelists has left Wise Wolf
Books.
Hello everybody.
Today we have an amazing YApanel.
And the question we're askingeverybody is how much of a
(19:05):
submission do we actually read?
So, first up we have the personwho came up with this concept,
who is Stacy Kondla, agent atThe Rights Factory.
Stacey Kondla (19:19):
Hi Sam.
Sam Hiyate (19:20):
Hey Stacy.
It's good to see you again.
It's been a while-- we missedyou on the podcast.
I'm happy to have you back.
We also have today, KalenaMiller, one of Stacy's authors
and the author of the YA debutnovel just out, The Night When
No One Had Sex, which soundslike a pretty good title,
actually.
Kalena Miller (19:41):
Hi, thank you.
Sam Hiyate (19:44):
And, last but not least, we have a publisher,
somebody from the other side andthis is Rachel Del Grosso, the
publisher of Wise WolfPublishing.
Rachel Del Grosso (19:56):
Hey Sam, thanks for having me.
Sam Hiyate (19:58):
Okay.
So I want to start with, just asevery athlete has a pre-game
ritual, every agent and editormust have their own way of
approaching their emails andsubmissions in the morning.
You come in, you're like, Whatam I going to get today?
But before we get to, in thiscase, an agent, an editor, I
want to ask Kalena, the writer,what she, like, What do you
(20:20):
think that the editors and theagents are doing?
Because I k now, I mean, yousubmit, you press send.
And you're like, Oh my God, Ireally want somebody to fall in
love with my book.
that I've wrecked two years ofmy life trying to write.
Kalena Miller (20:33):
Right?
Like I can't wait until ninemonths from now when I hear
something.
I don't know.
It's always interesting becauseI always, you know, like we all
think we're the center of theuniverse.
And so I'm always imagininglike, you know, you've gotta be
at the top of somebody's to-dolist, of course.
Right?
And then I'll see agents oreditors tweet, like how many
submissions they got that month.
(20:54):
And it's just like anoverwhelming number.
And then it's like, you drop inthe opposite direction.
Like there's no way they're evergoing to read my book.
They have 30 million books thatthey're reading.
So I think this is a reallyinteresting question that I
think will be helpful forauthors to kind of think about
how quickly they do have to getsomebody's attention and how
(21:16):
much they have to hold ontotheir attention and keep them
interested.
Because I know obviously wespend forever reading our own
work.
Right?
And to imagine that you only get10 minutes-- I don't, I don't
know like that-- that's, that'sstressful to think about for
sure.
Sam Hiyate (21:34):
Well, you said 30 million, so let's go with that.
So Stacy, we'll start with you.
Do you, how many, what does yourinbox look like and, how do you
approach it?
Stacey Kondla (21:43):
Yeah, so I mean, my queries since the beginning
of the summer have been zerobecause I closed to submissions.
But before that, while I wasopen to submissions, you know, I
was getting probably five to 10a day, which is a lot.
Right?
And it's a lot to go through.
So--
Sam Hiyate (22:03):
But I mean, if it's a picture book, can't you just
like read it in a minute andsay, No,
Stacey Kondla (22:09):
Yes, I could.
But also it depends on what elseis going on in your day.
Right?
But when you're getting five to10 a day, you're not just
getting five to 10 picture booksa day.
Right.
You're getting all sorts ofprojects.
Sam Hiyate (22:21):
Yeah.
I'm just joking.
Stacey Kondla (22:23):
Yeah.
It can be a lot.
But my pre-game ritual basicallyis I really like to focus on
queries and give them theattention that they deserve.
And so I tend to not look atthem very much throughout my
work week because I'm distractedwith too many other things.
I'm doing client work, I'mhaving meetings with editors.
(22:44):
I don't have the head space forqueries throughout the work week
.
So I save my queries for Sundaymornings with my coffee, when I
can just devote my head space tothem.
That's my pre-game thing.
I'm up early Sunday morning.
I've got my coffee in one hand,my laptop on my lap and I'm
ready to go.
And I dig in from there.
Sam Hiyate (23:06):
Great.
And, Rachel, what's it like, youknow, you're the publisher, you
have this fast-growing company.
I can't even imagine what yourlife is like.
I mean, I know a little bit ofour side, on the agenting, but
what is it like for you?
Rachel Del Grosso (23:20):
So, you know, we're still relatively new,
right?
So right now, we're in arelatively unique position where
we're still sort of unknown in away, right?
So we're not, I'm not receivinghundreds of submissions a day.
I don't have email upon email.
Sam Hiyate (23:37):
Maybe you should never have agreed to come on
this podcast.
Because you might be, you mightbe getting those, after this
airs.
Rachel Del Grosso (23:45):
Yeah.
I mean, we should only be solucky.
Right.
But you know, so when asubmission comes in, it's pretty
likely, you know, I'm at leastglancing at the synopsis.
Almost quite, you know, almostright away.
And so, if something pops up inthe synopsis, I might shoot a
note to the publishing assistantand say, Hey, take a look at
(24:07):
this.
That, you know, it would bringit to her attention a little
quickly.
She's seeing them, you know, thepublishing assistant, seeing
them at the same time I'm seeingthem.
So we might kind of just flag,flag some that catch our
attention, and they might belooked at sooner than later.
And you know, if we get asubmission from an agent that
we've worked with before, we'reprobably going to look at that a
(24:27):
little quicker.
You know, at this point we dotry to look at submissions and
respond to them within 90 days.
There are times we can respond alittle bit sooner.
Sometimes it's a little bitlonger than that, but you know,
we try to respond as quickly aswe can.
Sam Hiyate (24:46):
I love your 90 days goal because I feel like it's
only maybe within this window ofyour-- the career of the
publisher-- that you have thatkind of grace.
And I feel like, I remember, youknow, talking to a big five
publisher.
And I said, you know, If youguys get unsolicited, how long
(25:09):
does it take to get back to them?
And they're like, well, once ina while we get an intern to just
clear the whole thing, but it'slike an intense, you know,
internship where somebody goesthrough everything.
And then if they catch some--once in a while, they'll flag
something, but you know, itcould be six months.
It could be a year.
So I think 90 days is a greatgoal.
That's really exciting.
Do you guys have any techniquesof dealing with overwhelm?
(25:33):
So let's start with, we justended with you Rachel, so let's
go back to Stacy.
So you've got your Sundaycoffee, you've gone through
stuff.
What happens when you feel thatsense that you're never gonna
get through everything?
How do you deal with that moment?
Stacey Kondla (25:49):
Yeah, so I feel like because I'm an agent and I
have Query Manager as my tool.
I have the added benefit that Ican just say, Okay, I'm drowning
in queries.
I'm overwhelmed.
I need to close so I can catchup.
I don't think that editors atpublishing houses have that same
(26:10):
liberty.
Right?
Like they typically just cannotclose to submissions.
Sam Hiyate (26:16):
Because what if they missed the next Harry Potter?
Stacey Kondla (26:21):
I know, but that being said, I know of at least
one, one publisher that hasclosed queries until the new
year, just because they are sodrowning submissions and you
know, some smaller presses onlyhave specific windows that you
can send in submissions.
Right.
So I mean, different publishersapproach it differently.
But as an agent, I just get tosay, okay, I'm overwhelmed.
(26:42):
I'm gonna close to queries sothat I can spend the next few
months just catching up on topof my client work.
I don't like to close to queriesbecause I also have FOMO.
I don't wanna miss out.
Right.
Sam Hiyate (26:57):
Oh, I know that feeling well.
And Rachel, what do you feelabout this?
So t seems like we got you atsuch a good time that you're
actually able to look at most ofthe stuff, but maybe we can get
more detail about that.
If you're not, you don't getoverwhelmed that you're like,
okay.
Oh my God, I can't deal with allthis.
You know, we need moreassistance.
We need a bigger team.
So how much-- are you in thatluxurious point where you can
(27:20):
actually read as much as youwant?
Or do you have some, are youstarting to put in place some
kind of rules?
Like if they don't get us in thefirst chapter or the first page,
like a lot of editors are, youknow, this, kind of strict, like
do you have any thoughts onthat, or any feedback or
anecdotes?
Rachel Del Grosso (27:41):
So, I mean, as I mentioned, we're pretty
new, we're not getting fivesubmissions a day.
You know, on a good week, wemight get 20, but in talking
about what would make me stopreading or keep reading.
I think one of the first thingsis if you start reading
(28:03):
something and you think Hmmm...
I've heard this before, right?
That's, that's a big no-no forme, right?
It's, it's one thing if you'rekind of emulating authors that
you look up to and whatnot, butyou still have to be telling
your own story, right.
Originality is still going to bekey.
And then something I've seen isthat sometimes authors seem to
(28:28):
be talking down to the readers,like the writing's coming from
this preachy place.
That'll definitely turn me off.
I won't read too long.
Another one of the big things,and I think this is maybe
something that differentiatesWise Wolf from bigger publishing
houses is that honestly, beforewe even look at a manuscript,
(28:52):
we're looking at the socialpresence of the author.
They don't need to havethousands and thousands of
followers.
But we want to see that they'reonline, that they're trying to
reach out to readers.
So, you know, if we come acrossa manuscript and there's zero
social media, it's unlikely thatwe're even going to look at it.
Sam Hiyate (29:17):
So you're saying that platform really, is that
important to you because you--is it because you feel like the
author needs to have a sense ofengagement with the world and
you're looking at social mediaas a measure of that?
Rachel Del Grosso (29:30):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, like I said, they don'tneed to have 20,000 followers,
but we want to see that they'reat least putting themselves out
there and trying, and especiallyin the YA genre.
I mean, you have to be on, youknow, Instagram or TikTok or
whatever it is.
You need to have a presence.
Sam Hiyate (29:49):
Okay.
I'm going to move over toKalena.
So, sorry.
Kalena, as an author, thisplatform thing is interesting,
but before we get to that, howdo you feel when you, you talked
about, you submitted and you'relike, Oh my God, is it gonna be
nine months?
I know-- and just in my dealingwith authors, I often have this
(30:09):
Tom Petty video that I send them, which is the waiting is the
hardest part.
And nobody knows how hard it isuntil the thing that they've
spent so much effort and timegiving me, and they're trusting
me to get it out.
And I tell them, it's out to theeditors.
Let's just fingers crossed.
This is the hard part.
We could hear back.
I mean, the fastest I've heardback is 24 hours.
(30:29):
Like Sam, we want to pre-emptit.
Oh my God, I wish has happenedto every submission.
But, and then of course theworst thing is what happens is
nothing.
So somewhere between a pre-empt,a fast pre-empt and nothing
happening, we have to manage ourexpectations.
So, I don't know if Stacy eversent you that Tom Petty video.
(30:50):
She might next time, just so youknow, but, so how do you feel
about this?
And then I want to ask aboutsocial media afterwards.
Kalena Miller (30:56):
Yeah.
Well, I'm a really impatientperson, like in all aspects of
life, which would seem like itwould, make it worse, but it
actually really just makes thisseem like yet another thing I'm
impatient about.
So it really doesn't affect myday-to-day that much, like I
refresh my email every fiveminutes just as a compulsion.
So it doesn't really change myday-to-day that much.
I will say for me, what's hardis knowing that some of them
(31:21):
will never respond, ever.
That's stressful.
Like if I knew that everybody,even if it's gonna take'em a
year, if I knew that everybodyat some point would respond,
then I think that would give mea little bit more comfort of
knowing like, okay, there's anend date where we can like close
this book literally andfiguratively.
But the fact that it cansometimes just seem to go on
(31:42):
forever and ever, and ever, andit's like, are they going to
respond?
And then Stacey follows up, andwe hear nada.
And I think that's kind offrustrating just because it's
like, I don't even know if, ifthey exist.
Sam Hiyate (31:54):
Well, at least they now know your secret, which is
The Night That No One Had Sex.
So in terms of social media, howdo you feel about that?
Are you actively trying to builda bigger platform or be more
engaging with your community?
Or are you just like, I'm tooexhausted by just the writing?
I can't do both.
Kalena Miller (32:15):
No, I do a lot of social media.
I really enjoy it.
For the most part.
I mean, not that like Twitterdoesn't make me want to pull my
hair out, but generallyspeaking, I'm on Twitter,
Instagram TikTok, used to be onTumblr, kind of use Facebook,
like, you know, any and all,right.
I think it is about like in theYA space, then yes, you're
(32:39):
connecting with readers, but Ithink what is also really
important is that kind of beingyour landing page, when someone
goes looking for you, likethey're not necessarily looking
for your website anymore,they're typing your name into
Instagram.
And so being a place where theycan see a little bit of who you
are and what you're like andwhat your vibe is and what
(33:01):
you're working on, is great.
Both for readers and for otherwriters or whoever in the world
trying to connect with you.
Right.
And so I think obviously ifpeople like despise social
media, then that's gonna bestressful.
But I think if you can find someplatform or some aspect of it
that you don't loathe, then likeexploit that for all you've got,
(33:23):
right.
Sam Hiyate (33:24):
Awesome.
So, I wanted, because we havethat rare moment where we have,
an agent and an author here.
I wanted to ask a bit about howyou guys connected in terms of
like submissions, reading, likeusing the frame of our topic
today.
Give me a bit of the story.
And I love the idea that you'reboth here, so feel free to
(33:44):
interrupt each other.
Let's just make it really messyand a good combo.
So who wants to start?
So let me start with you.
You wrote this query, you sentit to how many agents?
Kalena Miller (33:54):
A lot?
Well, I had queried one bookbefore, and I'd had a really
terrible experience with an--not an agent that I signed with
-- but she just like had allthese revise and resubmits, and
she just like led me on for areally long time.
And then that ended up likecrashing and burning.
Right.
And so I had this new projectand I queried it pretty widely.
(34:15):
Like--
Sam Hiyate (34:15):
Did you always have that great title because the
title had me at hello?
You know?
Kalena Miller (34:19):
Yeah.
Stacey Kondla (34:19):
No, that was the second book that we pitched.
There was a book that I signedKalena for that--
Sam Hiyate (34:26):
Oh my god, so there's more to the story than I
know.
Stacey Kondla (34:28):
Yeah, exactly.
So.
Sam Hiyate (34:29):
Okay.
Sorry.
Stacey Kondla (34:29):
Kalena, keep going.
Kalena Miller (34:30):
Oh right.
OK.
So then, this other book wasanother YA Rom-Com.
It was a little bit of a youngerYA, and so that is what Stacey
initially read.
And you liked in theory.
Sam Hiyate (34:42):
And did she have R and R notes for you or was she
just like, I want to work withyou, and you were like, I've
sent it to 50 other agents.
I need to think about this.
Kalena Miller (34:51):
It wasn't 50, but yeah, no, she, she liked it.
We talked about it.
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (34:57):
How did she win you over?
Kalena Miller (35:00):
Well, I was at Valley Fair, which is an
amusement park in Ohio and I gotthe email, and I was like
freaking out because she'd beena person who I thought was a
really good fit.
You know how there are someagents when you submit to them
and it's like, I feel like youwould like me, if you would like
actually read this.
Right.
And so Stacy was one of those.
And so it honestly didn't takethat much winning over because I
(35:20):
like kind of had a lot ofinformation going in.
I wasn't too hard to convince.
Sam Hiyate (35:27):
Stacey's like a hard riser.
If you look up Publisher'sMarketplace, I don't think
anybody at this agency's everdone the volume of deals in such
a short time that she has.
So that was a good call.
So Stacey, what was it like fromyour point of view, like getting
the pitch and knowing that therewas competition in terms of
agents?
Stacey Kondla (35:44):
Yeah.
So I mean, at that time, thatwas when I was just a brand new
agent with The Rights Factory.
Right.
And I was building my clientlist and I was getting a lot of
emails because I was stilltaking my queries through email
at that time, hadn't moved overto Query Manager yet.
And I got this query from Kalenaand I liked the title of the
(36:06):
project.
That's what grabbed myattention.
First of all, was the title.
And then I read the pitch andI'm like, Oh, this sounds like a
lot of fun.
Right.
Because the pitch itself hadquirky characters.
It had some humor.
It was about a destinationwedding, you know, like there
was just all, all this fun stuffgoing on.
(36:26):
So I opened up the manuscriptand started reading and didn't
stop.
I loved it.
Like I loved it.
And like to this day I weepinside that it hasn't found a
home.
Sam Hiyate (36:41):
I'm sure that could be easily be repositioned as
Kalena's third or fourth novelwhen she becomes famous and gets
that Netflix adaptation thatwe're all waiting for.
Stacey Kondla (36:50):
Yeah.
But I was really happy to havean opportunity to chat with
Kalena.
We got to know each other alittle bit over the phone and I
was able to offer representationand just really, really happy
that it worked out in the end.
Sam Hiyate (37:04):
Let's pause there, because this will be interesting
to our audience.
So you said, I want to rep you,I love this book.
You know, you've had thisconversation.
So Kalena, what did you do then?
You had somebody excited.
Did you-- It's kind of likedating, right?
You're like, wait, are we gonnabe exclusive now?
Because I think there might besome other fabulous people I
can't give up right now.
I don't know.
Kalena Miller (37:23):
I don't know.
I wasn't, I feel like maybe I'mlike this with dating too, but I
like knew what my-- I wantedgoing in.
You know what I mean?
So like it wasn't really likeshe was, there weren't really
anything that could be like ared flag or like, Oh, I need to
check with other people.
Right.
Like I had made my decisionbefore we got on the phone.
So it was a very easy decisionfor me because I'd already made
it.
Sam Hiyate (37:42):
Yeah.
That's so good.
I never heard this story, butI'm really happy that-- and
obviously I know you guys have asecond book that you've
announced that you're workingon.
So that worked out well.
So just so that Rachel doesn'tfeel cut out of this.
So Rachel, it wasn't me, it wasactually Natalie Kimber at The
Rights Factory who sent youRunaway Train.
Do you remember what it wasabout that story that got you?
Rachel Del Grosso (38:06):
So that was actually one of the very first
submissions that I got from anagent, which was really
exciting.
So, I mean it was set in thenineties, right?
So it's this grungy music sceneand everything, which was super
exciting to read about.
I mean the title right away,Runaway Train, you know, you're
(38:30):
thinking what's going on?
Sam Hiyate (38:31):
You thought of the song.
Rachel Del Grosso (38:32):
Yeah.
And so, you know, every chapteris titled after a song in the
nineties and it was just, it wasjust so-- the idea seemed so
original to me and, you know, Istarted reading and it was one
of those ones that I justcouldn't put down.
I mean, Lee, Matthew Goldberg,he's a great writer.
And we were just excited to havehim come onboard.
Sam Hiyate (38:58):
I think Natalie told me too, that you guys were so
bullish about it.
You were like, We want a series.
And it was like thisconversation with Lee.
Like I think for him it wasmaybe a one off, but then now, I
mean, it could be this greatseries that I know the second--
the third-- book, I think hejust finished.
So it's like, he's so fast.
I'm just so impressed that youguys saw that-- had that vision
(39:18):
going into it.
So that was impressive.
Are series something that you'relooking for?
Rachel Del Grosso (39:23):
Yeah.
We definitely, you know, ourparent company, Wolf Pack
Publishing, that's what we'vekind of built our backlist on
and everything.
Right.
We really know how to sell theseries.
So yeah, when we got thissubmission of Runaway Train, I
mean, it was pretty obvious.
We're like, yeah, this could bea series-- it has great
potential.
(39:43):
And we did release a second book, Grenade Bouquets, and then,
yeah, he did just finish writingthe third book and that will be
coming out the first quarter of2022.
Sam Hiyate (39:55):
I have one last question for everybody and that
is so we just, I feel, I mean,maybe I'm an optimist, but I
feel we're coming out a littlebit out of the pandemic.
What do we think?
What do we think about this?
Do you guys have any thoughtsabout the future of like this
kind of process of writing,submitting, reading, responding.
(40:16):
I'll just go through everybodyone after another.
So let's start with Stacey.
What are your thoughts on this?
Stacey Kondla (40:22):
Yeah, I don't think that things are going to
get faster anytime soon.
Honestly, I feel like we allneed to be preparing ourselves
to wait, even though it's thehardest part.
Sam Hiyate (40:36):
So cue Tom Petty,
Stacey Kondla (40:37):
Exactly.
Sam Hiyate (40:39):
Kalena, any thoughts, any thoughts from your
point of view?
Kalena Miller (40:41):
I mean, Stacy sold two of my books during the
pandemic, so I don't feel toobadly about it.
And the one we submitted beforethe pandemic didn't sell.
So like--
Sam Hiyate (40:50):
Maybe you're just a brilliant writer.
Kalena Miller (40:51):
Yeah.
That, that must be it.
Stacey Kondla (40:52):
Super brilliant.
(40:52):
I mean, no, I mean, I know things are trending longer, but
like what?
To me it's like, well, what'sthe difference between six
months and nine months?
Like very little so, I don'tknow.
Sam Hiyate (41:04):
Because you're impatient anyway, like you said
in the beginning.
Kalena Miller (41:06):
I don't, you know, on the micro level then I
don't feel that much differentabout it.
Sam Hiyate (41:14):
That's such a funny way of looking at the world.
I just think of you.
It's like, Well, it's gonna takea week to get a response or nine
months, which-- each one wouldprobably be just as frustrating.
So I don't really care, buthonestly that's really awesome.
Rachel, any, so for you, Iimagine as time goes on and your
company becomes more establishedand you have more books like,
(41:37):
Lee Matthew Goldberg series, andother YA books coming out,
you're going to get morepitches.
You're gonna get more agents.
You're gonna get more agentsbugging you saying, Hey, we got,
you know, we have otherinterest.
Do you want to come in on anauction for this book and your
stakes are going to get higher.
What do you think you're goingto-- how do you think you're
going to respond to this?
Or do you have any plans for thefuture?
Rachel Del Grosso (41:59):
If that happened, we'd probably have to
bring on more people to belooking at submissions.
Because right now, yeah, it'stwo of us.
If we, you know, hopefully we doget to that point where it's,
we're taking a year to respond.
I mean, that would mean we'redoing something right.
So I give myself a little pat onthe back.
Sam Hiyate (42:17):
You have millions of queries in your inbox.
Rachel Del Grosso (42:19):
Right.
Sam Hiyate (42:23):
Okay.
Well, so good to chat with allyou guys today.
Thanks for being on our panel.
We're so grateful and good luckon everybody's books.
I'm excited to see where yourbook goes.
I know Stacey, you're stillpitching your guts out and
Rachel, I'm sure you're readingaway and you're probably gonna
have to decide when you're gonnastop for the year and say that's
(42:45):
i t, this is going to be r eadnext year.
Rachel Del Grosso (42:46):
Yeah.
Sam Hiyate (42:48):
Okay.
Thanks.
And bye everyone.
Rachel Del Grosso (42:49):
Thank you.
Kalena Miller (42:50):
Thank you.
Stacey Kondla (42:51):
Thanks, Sam.
Sam Hiyate (43:03):
Another Agent Provocateur episode done.
If you've made it this far, weonly have a lot of love for you.
As you know, we love gettingattention.
Thanks to all the TRF staff, allof our guests, and our producer,
Andrew Kaufman.
By the way, I know I've askedall of you to keep rating and
reviewing us, online.
And so far after some profoundlydeep investigations, I've only
(43:27):
found one person who's rated usa one on Apple Podcasts.
So we're one for one, how's thatfor an agent spin on it.
See you next week for the lastepisode of season two, as we
respond to your brief audiopitches.
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