October 23, 2025 • 35 mins
Summary In this episode of Agile Done Right, Michael Renna and Heather Wilson discuss the characteristics of high performing teams, the importance of collaboration, leadership roles, and how to build a learning culture. They explore common dysfunctions in teams, conflict resolution strategies, and actionable insights for both leaders and team members to foster high performance. The conversation emphasizes the significance of trust, accountability, and continuous improvement in achieving team success.
Takeaways:
• High performing teams set and meet objectives predictably.
• Collaboration and shared goals are essential for team success.
• Trust is built through meeting expectations and accountability.
• Conflict is inevitable and can be constructive if managed well.
• Leaders must create an environment that encourages open communication.
• A learning culture promotes growth and continuous improvement.
• Individual contributors can influence team dynamics positively.
• Emotional intelligence is crucial for effective leadership.
• Recognizing and addressing team dysfunctions is vital for performance.
• Modeling desired behaviors can inspire others in the team.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the first official episode of Agile Done Right.
I'm Michael Rennie, the host of this podcast where we talk about all things Agile.
Today we're uh excited to have a very special guest, a very long time friend of mine andformer colleague.
Heather Wilson is with us today.
Heather, welcome and thanks for being with us today.
Thank you so much Mike for having me.
It's a privilege.
(00:23):
Thank you.
Now, Heather, before we get into today's conversation, which is about high performingteams, I want to make sure our guests and listeners get a chance to hear about your
background.
Can you take a minute and take us through and maybe a little bit our history together andwhat you've been doing since then?
Absolutely.
About 25 years ago, I got into technology by accident.
(00:45):
I don't think I'll ever leave.
But I started in telecom, so was there for 12 years, really leaning into businessoperations.
um Switched into healthcare technology where I met you.
And again, stayed with business operations, uh product management, PMO, portfoliomanagement, but built a brand for transformation.
(01:07):
So moved around McCusin and change healthcare.
helping organizations transform.
A lot of that was safe transformations.
And so, you know, over the course of my time in industry of leading business operationstransformation, uh met you, right?
(01:27):
And I was on a high performing team.
So looking forward to talking about that.
uh Currently, I met Cuesta Partners, we're a technology consulting company, I get to spendsome time with some really great customers, thinking about
strategy and execution and uh writing this amazing wave called AI.
So doing some work there and high performing teams man like I love this topic.
(01:51):
It is something near and dear to my heart.
So looking forward to it.
Well, thanks for being with us.
And we could have talked about a million different topics.
You and I, we do go way back.
In fact, uh I was trying to figure out how long it had been.
I think it's been about 10 years.
I know it's been about 10 years since I got my SPC certification and you were there justbefore me.
(02:11):
So I think you had gotten your SPC certification and I think I joined the team you wereon.
And that's when I went and got mine.
And then we spent years training together and transforming.
You mentioned Change Healthcare and McKesson and our own organizations and sisterorganizations.
So we've spent a lot of time in the Agile space and we could have talked about just aboutanything in that space, I think, and had a good time with it.
(02:36):
But you're right, we were part of a high performing team.
And so we had decided today that would be a terrific topic for us to talk about.
And it's one that I think people don't think about often.
And I hope that we can talk about sort of the difference in
what a traditional team looks like and what a high performing team looks like so peoplecan evaluate, am I in a high performing team?
(02:57):
And if I'm not, how do I help this team become high performing?
So let's jump in.
And here's the first question I wanna pose for us to talk about, which is, what is a highperforming team?
What would you consider to be a high performing team?
What are the hallmarks of it?
What are we talking about?
Right.
I think at the highest level, would say teams that set objectives and can meet theirobjectives predictably and sustainably and also continue to evolve.
(03:29):
I think that's it.
Right.
And I think that comes in a lot of different flavors and a lot of different ways tomeasure that.
ah
you know, and safe predictability, right?
I think that's one way you can measure success.
But at the highest level is like, are you meeting your objectives and growing together?
(03:49):
I like the word too, the objective, because one of the things that I would certainly callout is that this difference in focus, a lot of teams think about output.
They measure output, they measure throughput, They measure commodity things.
How many items are we producing, right?
Where you're talking about objectives.
What are we trying to accomplish?
(04:10):
What are the outcomes we're trying to achieve, right?
So number one is.
What are some of the other hallmarks you think are of a high-performing When we were on ateam together, and we both knew we were on a high-performing team, what was unique about
that?
Yeah, you know, I remember vividly one day.
uh
You know, after a uh working session where we were all on site and kind of going to dinnerand kind of reminiscing over the day.
(04:32):
I thought, wow, you know, we came up with some really great ideas.
know, whose idea was that anyways?
And thinking, you know what?
It was nobody's one idea.
It like we were building on top of the idea and collectively coming together and sharingan objective and building an objective, sharing ideas.
uh And I think that's an indicator of high performing teams.
(04:54):
Like, can you collaborate?
and work towards something together.
Yeah, I remember, I think I agree 100%, right?
Teams that collaborate well, that come in and share their ideas and immediatelyparticipate and start to build on those things.
They're asking sort of what if, what if we did this, what if we did that, right?
(05:17):
So what do you think were some of the environmental variables that helped make thathappen?
uh I think that it helped uh a tremendous amount that we were all chasing towards the sameobjective.
We all had the goal of transforming into scale-badge-all with all of the team members.
(05:40):
think that we fortunately, nobody came to the table with an ego and nobody sucked the airout of the room.
We were all empathetic.
you know, and cross-functional.
think the diversity from which we came, different walks of life in different areas, Ithink that helped a tremendous amount to get us to where we're at.
(06:02):
Yeah, and think that's another good point you bring up was the cross-functional nature.
And in this team that we're talking about, and I hope to give some other examples ofplaces where I feel like I've been parts of high-performing teams, and some where I really
haven't been, but in this particular team, we had some very, very talented people, verystrong in their particular discipline.
(06:22):
And so we represented lots of different disciplines, product management, softwaredevelopment, uh regulatory quality, all these analytics, right?
And everyone being an expert in their space, we were always willing to step out of ourlanes, right?
Which is not a bad thing.
I think it's actually a good thing.
(06:44):
And challenge each other.
Rather than saying, hey, you're the expert on this, I'm gonna defer to you in that.
We brought in perspective from everybody.
And where people would say, hey look, I know I'm not in that space, but what about thisconsideration?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
said, well, here's why we think that, or I think that.
(07:05):
And the person who's not in the space says, okay, now I understand better.
And so I'm bought in better, right?
I think there was a couple folks that were gifts to the team where, you know, they wouldraise their hand and say, I don't think that's going to work.
ah Or, hey, I didn't quite understand that.
Can you explain that again?
(07:26):
And so it was kind of counterintuitive to find, you know, some way that naysaying being ablessing, but it was, you know, people that were not afraid to raise the hand and kind of
poke and prod at some of the ideas we had.
And that made us so much better, you know.
It did.
And it created some situations where some folks who may have disagreed were then put in aposition where the need existed to be able to support something they may not have
(07:53):
necessarily agreed with.
And that was another, to me, another hallmark, which is I don't love where we're goingwith this, but I'm part of this team and I'm committed to this and the rest of the team
supports this approach.
I'm going to commit to it as well.
Right?
And I know we'll talk more about the Agile elements of this that help manage risk where wecould go after and try things and have some experimentation and use things like leading
(08:16):
indicators to say, had this idea, how quickly can we determine if it's gonna play out andif it's not, let's pivot relentlessly to something else.
So there was less, it's much more easier, I think, to get on board when we had that levelof experimentation.
So that's a little bit of a tease for some of the Agile stuff.
I hope we'll go a little deeper in.
(08:37):
that helped enable that team.
Now, let's talk about the leadership element of this.
And here's why I mention that, because this was a team that was an organizational team.
It was based on the hierarchy.
We all reported to the same leader.
But there's two different kinds of teams we often think about.
We think about the hierarchy, and we think about the network.
(09:01):
And the network are the virtual teams, the...
Agile teams and the Agile release trains if you're in safe or the folks, cross-functionalfolks doing lean portfolio management.
Those virtual teams are a little bit easier because you don't have that hierarchicalelement there.
Your boss isn't in the room.
Now we, you our boss was in the room in a department team, right?
(09:23):
So the question I have for you is why was that different?
And what's the role you think that leader had to play to make that team?
perform well as a
Yeah, good question.
And it's something I ask myself every day too, right?
As a leader, what do I need to do to make this work?
(09:43):
uh I think that he created a space where, uh you know, no idea was dumb and people couldraise their hand without fear of, know, hey, you're going to get made fun of or you're
going to be laughed at or, you know, like we were, we were all in a space where uh
it was okay to ask the questions and ah just hear out one another's idea.
(10:10):
I think that was really, really instrumental.
think the innovative and passionate components of leadership in that space, think ah wereally had dialed down.
uh Yeah, how about you?
mean, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I certainly recall being laughed at frequently in that team, but I don't think it was forthe ideas.
(10:35):
I think we grew to respect each other and enjoy each other and have such a sort ofconnection around our shared goals and the things we were trying to do.
We certainly all enjoyed each other's company and had a lot of fun.
And I think you even said, we talked a different day, you said, the work never felt likework, it felt like fun.
So, you know, that's a great hallmark, right?
(10:57):
And our leader for sure was a servant leader.
And he brought, I think the number one thing that Tim brought to our group was energy,right?
Number one, he wanted to walk in and inspire folks to, you know, to really commit and justsort of ramp up the energy.
(11:18):
towards whatever we were trying to accomplish.
And that was, I think that was very unique and appreciative, right?
The other thing about our team, I think it's a real hallmark of high performing teams iswe developed a learning culture, right?
And we promote that in safe.
We promote that in agile with continuous improvement and specific ceremonies likeretrospectives that bake that.
(11:43):
in, but in a team that's built around the hierarchy, a departmental team or a leadershipteam, that's not necessarily baked in.
And we developed a learning culture.
And remember, we did this by our book club, right?
So uh we would each bring a book in, we would take turns and we, think we gave each otherwhat, a month or something to read, because we all had day jobs.
(12:07):
And each person would take a turn bringing a book in that they thought was impactful.
Yeah.
we would then talk about it and learn together from it.
And I think that culture was really, really important.
In fact, I remember to this day, your book, I know exactly which one you brought in 10years ago, which was Don Reinertson's Principles of Product Development Flow.
(12:27):
And I remember for two reasons.
One, because this is the book where Weighted Shortest Job First comes from, which is anincredibly impactful prioritization practice that I'm touting all the time.
I think it's terrific.
It was also a very math-oriented book.
I remember traveling on a plane when I was reading that and thinking, Heather, this hasgot to be the driest book I've ever read.
(12:50):
I, we were on a plane together when you were reading it on a Kindle version and I was inthe row in front of you and I was like, what part are you at?
What part are you at?
And you did not enjoy the banter back and forth.
It is my jam.
I have a signed copy.
It, Donald, if you're listening, would love to talk more.
(13:11):
Yes, I have a huge passion for that book.
because it does explain in detail in a cerebral way a lot of the same principles.
Yeah, it was a great book.
It's been a lasting book and there's a lot of things in there that we still use and willcontinue to use, like Weighted Shortest Job First.
And there were lots of other good books we brought.
(13:32):
If there's any tip that you could take from this, I hope there's lots of tips you cantake, if you're trying to build a high-performing team, that learning culture was great.
And I think about some of the other books we did.
think we did, maybe we did Good to Great in that group.
And I know we did The Phoenix Project, because that's always been my jam, right?
um Tim brought in uh peak performance, right?
(13:54):
Which was interesting sort of study on how, know, one, the limitations that we as humanshave for, you know, capacity for engaged thought in any given day.
So trying to maximize your amount of sort of high efficiency uh levels during the day.
(14:16):
And also, you know, recognizing too that boy meetings
make sure you take breaks, make breaks part of your culture, otherwise people are gonnastop being able to hear and think well and things like that.
And the other one from that book I remember too was the idea that all growth, whether it'sphysical or cognitive, comes from going just beyond what's comfortable, right?
(14:37):
Or it's close to sort of that breaking point.
The farther you travel beyond the comfort level to where you just obviously, there's apoint of failure.
physically, immensely at some point.
But getting into that zone and pushing yourself was where real growth happens.
Physically, your body starts to develop muscle.
If you're pushing it beyond what it's, so it can be prepared next time that happens, thesame thing happens cognitively.
(15:01):
And that was an interesting um book we did as well.
I don't know if you remember that one.
So one other one, I think this would be a good segue.
One of the ones, the other book that I think we did, and I don't know if...
um
sometimes after 10 years, these teams, I don't recall exactly.
We have, they blur together a little bit, right?
(15:23):
It was the five dysfunction of teams.
And I've been through that as a participant and I've done that as a workshop for othergroups as well.
So there's been a lot of time spent with that one.
And I just don't recall if we did that book together, but I want to run through thatbecause I think those five dysfunctions of a team are a good segue into a...
asking and hopefully answering the question and how do you prevent some of these things,right?
(15:46):
A big part of being high performing is going to be uh how do you get past, how do youbuild this environment, get past these common pitfalls, right?
So the five dysfunctions were this.
The first was the inattention to results, uh avoidance of accountability, lack ofcommitment, fear of conflict, absence of trust.
(16:13):
And thinking of those things, think when I think about our high performing team, we did agood job of avoiding those things.
What do you think are the things that we had to do that helped us deal with some of thosetypical dysfunctions?
I think it starts, in my opinion, with trust and building trust and it's trusting, can Itrust you with the small things as well as the big things?
(16:37):
So uh like as a leader, like, am I going to review the PowerPoint that they sent me andask for my feedback on in the time I said it was?
It's small, right?
Am I going to get feedback?
in a timely manner after asked for it.
It's a small things like, am I going to show up on time?
Building trust with people and once they start to trust you with the small things, they'regoing to trust you with the bigger things.
(17:03):
And so us building trust and holding onto that.
I think also setting expectations and having expectations for roles.
And I think our training of training for roles and setting expectations for the roles,even starting important meetings with rules of engagement and setting expectations for
(17:24):
meetings.
So setting expectations and holding us accountable for what do we want to accomplish?
What are our roles in that?
And then just really as leaders leading by example and setting the tone and I think thosewere really important things that we did as a team.
Yeah, let me read some of those back because I think those are really good, right?
(17:46):
So you talked about one, building trust by meeting expectations, right?
I think you talked about being places on time, right?
That was a little thing you mentioned and when you tell someone you're going to dosomething, follow through and make sure you do it, right?
I think those are great examples of little things.
One I would add, I think that's good too, is being able to be vulnerable.
(18:08):
And that's not easy, you know?
building a team where everyone feels comfortable being vulnerable or saying, hey, I don'tknow the answer to that or hey, maybe I screwed up something, Creating an environment
where failure is just a learning experience and not something we need to beat ourselves upover.
But that first time and the first person to step up and say, I'm gonna show myvulnerability and I'm gonna model this behavior isn't easy, right?
(18:34):
So I think that's a good one.
Conflict is on here, right?
So fear of conflict was one of the dysfunctions.
How do you handle conflict in a high performing team?
Mm.
Yeah.
Um, I think, boy, that's a great question, Mike.
I think conflict is inevitable.
And if you don't have conflict, then you're not on a performing team, I would argue.
(18:56):
Right.
And so knowing your audience, right.
I think we talked a little bit about not having ego.
And I think if you don't have ego, then you're not incentivized to come in and gunsblazing in an incorrect forum and have conflict, right?
You understand your audience, you know, Hey, do I need to take this off offline and have aconversation?
with somebody?
Do I need to take a beat before I come back and talk to somebody?
(19:20):
Am I gonna wait my turn?
Am I listening enough before I raise an opposing view?
Am I listening to respond or am I listening to understand?
So thinking about some of those things as you walk into conflict.
I like that distinction.
(19:41):
I listening to respond or am I listening to hear?
I know you said it differently.
The other thing you said I thought was interesting was knowing your audience.
When I think about this topic, I think about the idea of emotional intelligence.
EQ as opposed to IQ.
Many people have probably heard that before IQ, this sort traditional intelligencequotient.
(20:03):
The newer one was this EQ, emotional quotient, this idea for uh how well do you
sort of know yourself emotionally and how well can you uh read and understand andempathize with people around you so you know what, can sort of understand what they might
be thinking and feeling, right?
(20:23):
And I think some of the best leaders that I've known had a very high EQ and just absolutetremendous control over uh their emotions, because we're passionate people, we get
passionate about stuff, control over their emotions.
You know, always um calm thinking and also understanding the people around them.
(20:46):
They ask them the questions and trying to understand what motivates people.
um And I think that's really important to dealing with conflict constructively.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Okay.
So um let me ask this question.
What do you think?
So we're talking about all the good things about a high performing team.
We're talking about what makes a high performing team and some of the hallmarks of it.
(21:11):
What do you think?
What are some of the anti-patterns?
mean, let's sort of shift that over.
Let's flip it over a little bit and talk about teams that maybe are not there yet.
What are some of the anti-patterns or the things that we think can prevent a team from,you know, becoming high performing?
Yeah, I do think that if you sit in a room and you, you know.
(21:34):
it appears that you agree on something and everybody walks away and gets out of the roomand then like travels on a different path.
Like, whoa, wait a minute, that's not what we agreed to.
Or somebody, you know, speaks their mind behind closed doors about, well, I really didn'tagree with that.
You know, just the lack of consensus and honoring the consensus that is driven in meetingsis a great way to like undermine a team's performance.
(22:04):
And it happens a lot.
I think there's a tendency to not want to raise your hand or have a discussion or fall inline with a decision that you may not agree to, but you got to act as a collective team
and execute as planned.
Yeah, I think that starts from the team leader.
(22:25):
I think about how I would draw a contrast between a high performing team and maybe a nonhigh performing team.
I think about my experience in witnessing and participating in team meetings.
High performing and one I would consider not high performing right, especially when you'retalking about organizational teams, teams where your bosses in the room.
This is why I say it starts from the leader in a high performing team.
(22:48):
remember the boss coming in and oh
and ultimately opening the meeting and saying, all right, what are we trying toaccomplish?
How are we doing?
What are the challenges?
do we get, uh know, basically, you know, uh simply turning the room and the team loose,right?
And in those meetings, if that leader was out, didn't matter, we still meet because thatleader wasn't necessary.
(23:13):
Let me say it differently, nothing that wasn't necessary, but it wasn't, it didn't stop usfrom operating as a team.
They had enabled us to operate as a team and therefore they didn't have to be in themeeting.
We could still and would still feel enabled and empowered to continue to advance whateverour objective would be.
The reverse of that, I see a lot of times, I see team meetings and departmental meetingswhere it's essentially the leader holding court.
(23:42):
Either coming in and spending 50 to 60 to 70 % of the meeting talking.
sharing information and sort of promoting themselves and the things they know, I don'tmean to be um derisive about that, but it's sort of feel like I'm gonna tell you things
that you need to know, and then I'm going to let you uh petition me for the things youwant me to, the decisions you want me to make, or I'm gonna ask you what you're doing,
(24:11):
what you're working on, and then we're gonna walk out and that's the end of the meeting.
Yep.
And the problem with that is, clearly no shared objectives as a team.
Each one of the folks in the room are probably managing the department well in whateverway they need to manage their department.
So we sort of miss an opportunity with these people in a room to have shared goals atwhatever level we're talking about and be going after something different than just
(24:40):
reporting on how our departments are performing, right?
Night.
So real distinction for me, stark contrast in those types of meetings, high performing andmaybe not high performing team.
and you talk a little bit about, it starts with the leader.
I high performing teams.
mean, in my opinion, a majority of high performing teams start with excellent leadership.
(25:06):
And I'd ask you, do you feel like you could be on a high performing team and not have aleader that is strong?
I don't think I have been on a team I would consider high performing without a strongleader because they do set the tone.
I think so too, right?
And so like it begs the question of if you're not on a high performing team as anindividual contributor or maybe a manager on that, can you have influence to make things
(25:35):
better or move it into the direction of a high performing team?
Yeah.
me repeat the question, I think it's a good one, which is if you're on a team and yourecognize maybe we're not a high performing team and we want to become one, how do you
influence that?
And especially if you're an individual contributor.
(25:55):
You wanna share your thoughts first on that?
I got some thoughts.
Sure.
uh I think you have to show an example of it.
uh So leading by example of, you know, maybe being the first one to share a vulnerabilityor uh ask a clarifying question that might seem silly.
uh
(26:16):
you know, encourage others to do the same thing.
If somebody also asks a question of being that first person to say, that's a really goodquestion.
had that same thing too.
uh And just trying to lead by example, but it can be lonely and it can be frustrating.
But I would say it's an effort worth pursuing and not giving up on because high performingteams are just so darn important.
(26:43):
Yeah.
What are your thoughts?
Yeah.
think back on, the question is on how does an individual contributor help a team becomehigh performing?
And I agree with you, it is about modeling those behaviors.
And it sort of reminds me of, and again, we're really talking mostly about organizationalteams here, where the boss might be in the room, And it reminds me, I've been a people
(27:06):
leader for most of my career.
And we used to do performance reviews every year.
we had a, I think with McKesson, had a form and these sort of stock questions and we wouldrate people on these questions.
And two of the questions for many years, I would often put an A.
And the two questions were, the two sort of topics were influence others and the secondwas develop talent.
(27:33):
so oftentimes for individual contributors, would say, well, that's not applicable.
They're not necessarily,
Their job isn't necessarily to influence others and they're not in a position to developtalent.
When we started adopting Agile seriously and started building cross-functional,autonomous, self-organized teams, all of that changed.
(27:54):
And suddenly you could see, and you did create an environment where the people in theteams were being asked to influence each other, to being asked to participate, to share
their feedback, to share their perspective.
And if they feel strongly,
convinced the team.
So they were modeling that behavior.
And then they also, the environment allowed for them to invest in each other and they weredeveloping talent.
(28:18):
So sort of two areas where a contributor in a team, a team member can model behaviors thatreally help promote that team towards becoming really high performing.
Yeah, I remember uh actually by accident stumbling, honestly, stumbling into a planningmeeting with a team and the scrum master had the courage to say, hey, do you have any
(28:45):
questions?
Happy to meet with you offline, but really wanted this to be a team thing.
And so I'm going to have to ask you to leave as a leader.
Right.
And so
Promoting having a role and being an individual contributor, but also shepherding the teamwanting to support the team and having the courage to influence leaders.
(29:11):
I mean that's power.
You know, that's magic.
Powerful, I guess.
that's a good situation though you bring up because I see that in transformation.
I know you probably do too.
As we build agile teams and these virtual teams and these network of cross-functionalpeople focused around a specific deliverable or product or service, the role of the
(29:33):
manager often changes or the department, the development director or the quality director,these folks who maybe have traditionally been part of a organization where they were doing
a lot of
directing, they were doing a lot of maybe task management and things like that.
we're trying to build autonomous self-organizing teams that don't need someone to tellthem specifically what to do because product management and backlogs and all of that
(29:57):
practice that we do will tell them what the most important thing to do is.
And they'll figure out the best way to deliver on whatever the objective is.
So it changes the role of the manager where now if I'm in charge of a developmentorganization or a quality department or things like that, my focus is how do I
help enable all of the people in my care, or maybe the people that report through me insome way in my care, who are out in their respective virtual teams.
(30:26):
So now my team, the people that report organizationally, I have to look at that verydifferently.
And it is some things like one, not going to their meetings so that they can develop theirskills and their autonomy and be able to decentralize some of those decisions.
And it can also change the focus saying, do my folks need?
The folks who report to me, what do they need?
(30:46):
What can I provide them to give them the tools, the skills, the competency, the confidenceto go out into these teams and be productive?
And that's hard oftentimes to do, because a very big shift, that's the servant leadershipshift, right?
It's a very hard shift for many people to make.
Yeah, and it could be uncomfortable.
It can be an unknown.
(31:07):
m You know, I totally see that quite a bit.
I mean, I think that is probably one of the bigger things that get in the way of atransformation of that, of those managers kind of resisting a little bit because they
don't know what that looks like is something so different to them.
making that shift is big.
It's really important and it pays off in spades, but it can be very difficult.
(31:33):
Yeah, and it's probably top five struggles, I think, I've seen um repeating in differentorganizations and different transformations, because change is scary, right?
And people are like, where do I fit in this new model?
And getting them over that fear and teaching them a different way to lead is difficult,right?
(31:59):
And I'd be remiss if I didn't.
mentioned why that's so important, I think, to have expert help when, if you are in aposition where you're going, you're trying to build high performing teams and or adopt or
re-adopt or reform uh your practices, agile practices or lean practices or otherwise.
So let's, we're getting close to time here, I think.
(32:22):
Let me ask this question.
And I think we've talked about a lot of good stuff so far, but as far as takeaways, right?
If we had to pick three actionable
Insights for listeners right three sort of takeaways and I'll ask this in two differentparts, right?
The first would be What would we encourage?
Folks that are listening that are leaders of teams that want to build the environment forhigh-performing team What three?
(32:48):
Actional insights would you encourage them to take things and I'm gonna ask the questionagain in a minute on sort of team members, right?
So leaders We think
Set the tone.
Right?
Set the tone, right?
You're there to make sure that there's an environment where people can collaborate, askquestions, are held accountable, work together.
(33:09):
um Two, lead by example.
You know, build trust.
Do what you say you're going to do.
um Say what you mean, mean what you say.
And three, really promote a place where you can grow together.
Have the book clubs, have, you know, Slack channels that say, hey, here's what I'mreading, you know, talk about what you're learning.
(33:30):
Inspire others to do the same thing.
And really be aware, this is a fourth bonus one, is be aware, have empathy.
Continue to work on that, right?
Don't give up on creating that space.
That's a point.
So how about team members?
We spent a little time talking about those.
(33:51):
What do you think?
Three actionable insights for team members who want their team to grow and develop into ahigh performing team.
Yeah, and I'll reiterate, this is harder, right?
This is harder to lead by influence and be a member um in an environment having to leadthat way.
Just model the behavior.
um
you know, in those little ways where you can in meetings, in emails, in communications.
(34:18):
Two is don't give up.
Don't give up on influencing to become a high performing team.
And the third is like continuously improve yourself, you know, grow and learn and do thosethings that read books, stay inquisitive and grow your practice.
(34:40):
Yeah, terrific.
Well, listen, Heather, thank you for the time and for being with us.
We could continue for an hour, I'm sure, on this topic alone.
But we want to keep these somewhat short, hopefully, and consumable for the folks thatlisten.
In our next episode, we're still working on our next episode, but our next episode, let metease that a little bit, we're going to really talk about change.
(35:08):
Bye.
What does it take to make real change happen?
Wonder some of the reasons why change fails?
ah So I know that that's one that hopefully, of course, you could have a lot to say onthat as well.
So looking forward to making that one.
And look, I'd like to have you back.
let's pick another topic sometime soon if you don't mind, and we'll do another one.
We'll talk about some of these other things that we've seen over the many years together.
(35:32):
I would love to, yes, thank you for having me.
It's been great.
Thank you.
Bye.
Welcome to the first official episode of Agile Done Right.
I'm Michael Rennie, the host of this podcast where we talk about all things Agile.
Today we're uh excited to have a very special guest, a very long time friend of mine andformer colleague.
Heather Wilson is with us today.
Heather, welcome and thanks for being with us today.
Thank you so much Mike for having me.
It's a privilege.
(00:23):
Thank you.
Now, Heather, before we get into today's conversation, which is about high performingteams, I want to make sure our guests and listeners get a chance to hear about your
background.
Can you take a minute and take us through and maybe a little bit our history together andwhat you've been doing since then?
Absolutely.
About 25 years ago, I got into technology by accident.
(00:45):
I don't think I'll ever leave.
But I started in telecom, so was there for 12 years, really leaning into businessoperations.
um Switched into healthcare technology where I met you.
And again, stayed with business operations, uh product management, PMO, portfoliomanagement, but built a brand for transformation.
(01:07):
So moved around McCusin and change healthcare.
helping organizations transform.
A lot of that was safe transformations.
And so, you know, over the course of my time in industry of leading business operationstransformation, uh met you, right?
(01:27):
And I was on a high performing team.
So looking forward to talking about that.
uh Currently, I met Cuesta Partners, we're a technology consulting company, I get to spendsome time with some really great customers, thinking about
strategy and execution and uh writing this amazing wave called AI.
So doing some work there and high performing teams man like I love this topic.
(01:51):
It is something near and dear to my heart.
So looking forward to it.
Well, thanks for being with us.
And we could have talked about a million different topics.
You and I, we do go way back.
In fact, uh I was trying to figure out how long it had been.
I think it's been about 10 years.
I know it's been about 10 years since I got my SPC certification and you were there justbefore me.
(02:11):
So I think you had gotten your SPC certification and I think I joined the team you wereon.
And that's when I went and got mine.
And then we spent years training together and transforming.
You mentioned Change Healthcare and McKesson and our own organizations and sisterorganizations.
So we've spent a lot of time in the Agile space and we could have talked about just aboutanything in that space, I think, and had a good time with it.
(02:36):
But you're right, we were part of a high performing team.
And so we had decided today that would be a terrific topic for us to talk about.
And it's one that I think people don't think about often.
And I hope that we can talk about sort of the difference in
what a traditional team looks like and what a high performing team looks like so peoplecan evaluate, am I in a high performing team?
(02:57):
And if I'm not, how do I help this team become high performing?
So let's jump in.
And here's the first question I wanna pose for us to talk about, which is, what is a highperforming team?
What would you consider to be a high performing team?
What are the hallmarks of it?
What are we talking about?
Right.
I think at the highest level, would say teams that set objectives and can meet theirobjectives predictably and sustainably and also continue to evolve.
(03:29):
I think that's it.
Right.
And I think that comes in a lot of different flavors and a lot of different ways tomeasure that.
ah
you know, and safe predictability, right?
I think that's one way you can measure success.
But at the highest level is like, are you meeting your objectives and growing together?
(03:49):
I like the word too, the objective, because one of the things that I would certainly callout is that this difference in focus, a lot of teams think about output.
They measure output, they measure throughput, They measure commodity things.
How many items are we producing, right?
Where you're talking about objectives.
What are we trying to accomplish?
(04:10):
What are the outcomes we're trying to achieve, right?
So number one is.
What are some of the other hallmarks you think are of a high-performing When we were on ateam together, and we both knew we were on a high-performing team, what was unique about
that?
Yeah, you know, I remember vividly one day.
uh
You know, after a uh working session where we were all on site and kind of going to dinnerand kind of reminiscing over the day.
(04:32):
I thought, wow, you know, we came up with some really great ideas.
know, whose idea was that anyways?
And thinking, you know what?
It was nobody's one idea.
It like we were building on top of the idea and collectively coming together and sharingan objective and building an objective, sharing ideas.
uh And I think that's an indicator of high performing teams.
(04:54):
Like, can you collaborate?
and work towards something together.
Yeah, I remember, I think I agree 100%, right?
Teams that collaborate well, that come in and share their ideas and immediatelyparticipate and start to build on those things.
They're asking sort of what if, what if we did this, what if we did that, right?
(05:17):
So what do you think were some of the environmental variables that helped make thathappen?
uh I think that it helped uh a tremendous amount that we were all chasing towards the sameobjective.
We all had the goal of transforming into scale-badge-all with all of the team members.
(05:40):
think that we fortunately, nobody came to the table with an ego and nobody sucked the airout of the room.
We were all empathetic.
you know, and cross-functional.
think the diversity from which we came, different walks of life in different areas, Ithink that helped a tremendous amount to get us to where we're at.
(06:02):
Yeah, and think that's another good point you bring up was the cross-functional nature.
And in this team that we're talking about, and I hope to give some other examples ofplaces where I feel like I've been parts of high-performing teams, and some where I really
haven't been, but in this particular team, we had some very, very talented people, verystrong in their particular discipline.
(06:22):
And so we represented lots of different disciplines, product management, softwaredevelopment, uh regulatory quality, all these analytics, right?
And everyone being an expert in their space, we were always willing to step out of ourlanes, right?
Which is not a bad thing.
I think it's actually a good thing.
(06:44):
And challenge each other.
Rather than saying, hey, you're the expert on this, I'm gonna defer to you in that.
We brought in perspective from everybody.
And where people would say, hey look, I know I'm not in that space, but what about thisconsideration?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
said, well, here's why we think that, or I think that.
(07:05):
And the person who's not in the space says, okay, now I understand better.
And so I'm bought in better, right?
I think there was a couple folks that were gifts to the team where, you know, they wouldraise their hand and say, I don't think that's going to work.
ah Or, hey, I didn't quite understand that.
Can you explain that again?
(07:26):
And so it was kind of counterintuitive to find, you know, some way that naysaying being ablessing, but it was, you know, people that were not afraid to raise the hand and kind of
poke and prod at some of the ideas we had.
And that made us so much better, you know.
It did.
And it created some situations where some folks who may have disagreed were then put in aposition where the need existed to be able to support something they may not have
(07:53):
necessarily agreed with.
And that was another, to me, another hallmark, which is I don't love where we're goingwith this, but I'm part of this team and I'm committed to this and the rest of the team
supports this approach.
I'm going to commit to it as well.
Right?
And I know we'll talk more about the Agile elements of this that help manage risk where wecould go after and try things and have some experimentation and use things like leading
(08:16):
indicators to say, had this idea, how quickly can we determine if it's gonna play out andif it's not, let's pivot relentlessly to something else.
So there was less, it's much more easier, I think, to get on board when we had that levelof experimentation.
So that's a little bit of a tease for some of the Agile stuff.
I hope we'll go a little deeper in.
(08:37):
that helped enable that team.
Now, let's talk about the leadership element of this.
And here's why I mention that, because this was a team that was an organizational team.
It was based on the hierarchy.
We all reported to the same leader.
But there's two different kinds of teams we often think about.
We think about the hierarchy, and we think about the network.
(09:01):
And the network are the virtual teams, the...
Agile teams and the Agile release trains if you're in safe or the folks, cross-functionalfolks doing lean portfolio management.
Those virtual teams are a little bit easier because you don't have that hierarchicalelement there.
Your boss isn't in the room.
Now we, you our boss was in the room in a department team, right?
(09:23):
So the question I have for you is why was that different?
And what's the role you think that leader had to play to make that team?
perform well as a
Yeah, good question.
And it's something I ask myself every day too, right?
As a leader, what do I need to do to make this work?
(09:43):
uh I think that he created a space where, uh you know, no idea was dumb and people couldraise their hand without fear of, know, hey, you're going to get made fun of or you're
going to be laughed at or, you know, like we were, we were all in a space where uh
it was okay to ask the questions and ah just hear out one another's idea.
(10:10):
I think that was really, really instrumental.
think the innovative and passionate components of leadership in that space, think ah wereally had dialed down.
uh Yeah, how about you?
mean, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I certainly recall being laughed at frequently in that team, but I don't think it was forthe ideas.
(10:35):
I think we grew to respect each other and enjoy each other and have such a sort ofconnection around our shared goals and the things we were trying to do.
We certainly all enjoyed each other's company and had a lot of fun.
And I think you even said, we talked a different day, you said, the work never felt likework, it felt like fun.
So, you know, that's a great hallmark, right?
(10:57):
And our leader for sure was a servant leader.
And he brought, I think the number one thing that Tim brought to our group was energy,right?
Number one, he wanted to walk in and inspire folks to, you know, to really commit and justsort of ramp up the energy.
(11:18):
towards whatever we were trying to accomplish.
And that was, I think that was very unique and appreciative, right?
The other thing about our team, I think it's a real hallmark of high performing teams iswe developed a learning culture, right?
And we promote that in safe.
We promote that in agile with continuous improvement and specific ceremonies likeretrospectives that bake that.
(11:43):
in, but in a team that's built around the hierarchy, a departmental team or a leadershipteam, that's not necessarily baked in.
And we developed a learning culture.
And remember, we did this by our book club, right?
So uh we would each bring a book in, we would take turns and we, think we gave each otherwhat, a month or something to read, because we all had day jobs.
(12:07):
And each person would take a turn bringing a book in that they thought was impactful.
Yeah.
we would then talk about it and learn together from it.
And I think that culture was really, really important.
In fact, I remember to this day, your book, I know exactly which one you brought in 10years ago, which was Don Reinertson's Principles of Product Development Flow.
(12:27):
And I remember for two reasons.
One, because this is the book where Weighted Shortest Job First comes from, which is anincredibly impactful prioritization practice that I'm touting all the time.
I think it's terrific.
It was also a very math-oriented book.
I remember traveling on a plane when I was reading that and thinking, Heather, this hasgot to be the driest book I've ever read.
(12:50):
I, we were on a plane together when you were reading it on a Kindle version and I was inthe row in front of you and I was like, what part are you at?
What part are you at?
And you did not enjoy the banter back and forth.
It is my jam.
I have a signed copy.
It, Donald, if you're listening, would love to talk more.
(13:11):
Yes, I have a huge passion for that book.
because it does explain in detail in a cerebral way a lot of the same principles.
Yeah, it was a great book.
It's been a lasting book and there's a lot of things in there that we still use and willcontinue to use, like Weighted Shortest Job First.
And there were lots of other good books we brought.
(13:32):
If there's any tip that you could take from this, I hope there's lots of tips you cantake, if you're trying to build a high-performing team, that learning culture was great.
And I think about some of the other books we did.
think we did, maybe we did Good to Great in that group.
And I know we did The Phoenix Project, because that's always been my jam, right?
um Tim brought in uh peak performance, right?
(13:54):
Which was interesting sort of study on how, know, one, the limitations that we as humanshave for, you know, capacity for engaged thought in any given day.
So trying to maximize your amount of sort of high efficiency uh levels during the day.
(14:16):
And also, you know, recognizing too that boy meetings
make sure you take breaks, make breaks part of your culture, otherwise people are gonnastop being able to hear and think well and things like that.
And the other one from that book I remember too was the idea that all growth, whether it'sphysical or cognitive, comes from going just beyond what's comfortable, right?
(14:37):
Or it's close to sort of that breaking point.
The farther you travel beyond the comfort level to where you just obviously, there's apoint of failure.
physically, immensely at some point.
But getting into that zone and pushing yourself was where real growth happens.
Physically, your body starts to develop muscle.
If you're pushing it beyond what it's, so it can be prepared next time that happens, thesame thing happens cognitively.
(15:01):
And that was an interesting um book we did as well.
I don't know if you remember that one.
So one other one, I think this would be a good segue.
One of the ones, the other book that I think we did, and I don't know if...
um
sometimes after 10 years, these teams, I don't recall exactly.
We have, they blur together a little bit, right?
(15:23):
It was the five dysfunction of teams.
And I've been through that as a participant and I've done that as a workshop for othergroups as well.
So there's been a lot of time spent with that one.
And I just don't recall if we did that book together, but I want to run through thatbecause I think those five dysfunctions of a team are a good segue into a...
asking and hopefully answering the question and how do you prevent some of these things,right?
(15:46):
A big part of being high performing is going to be uh how do you get past, how do youbuild this environment, get past these common pitfalls, right?
So the five dysfunctions were this.
The first was the inattention to results, uh avoidance of accountability, lack ofcommitment, fear of conflict, absence of trust.
(16:13):
And thinking of those things, think when I think about our high performing team, we did agood job of avoiding those things.
What do you think are the things that we had to do that helped us deal with some of thosetypical dysfunctions?
I think it starts, in my opinion, with trust and building trust and it's trusting, can Itrust you with the small things as well as the big things?
(16:37):
So uh like as a leader, like, am I going to review the PowerPoint that they sent me andask for my feedback on in the time I said it was?
It's small, right?
Am I going to get feedback?
in a timely manner after asked for it.
It's a small things like, am I going to show up on time?
Building trust with people and once they start to trust you with the small things, they'regoing to trust you with the bigger things.
(17:03):
And so us building trust and holding onto that.
I think also setting expectations and having expectations for roles.
And I think our training of training for roles and setting expectations for the roles,even starting important meetings with rules of engagement and setting expectations for
(17:24):
meetings.
So setting expectations and holding us accountable for what do we want to accomplish?
What are our roles in that?
And then just really as leaders leading by example and setting the tone and I think thosewere really important things that we did as a team.
Yeah, let me read some of those back because I think those are really good, right?
(17:46):
So you talked about one, building trust by meeting expectations, right?
I think you talked about being places on time, right?
That was a little thing you mentioned and when you tell someone you're going to dosomething, follow through and make sure you do it, right?
I think those are great examples of little things.
One I would add, I think that's good too, is being able to be vulnerable.
(18:08):
And that's not easy, you know?
building a team where everyone feels comfortable being vulnerable or saying, hey, I don'tknow the answer to that or hey, maybe I screwed up something, Creating an environment
where failure is just a learning experience and not something we need to beat ourselves upover.
But that first time and the first person to step up and say, I'm gonna show myvulnerability and I'm gonna model this behavior isn't easy, right?
(18:34):
So I think that's a good one.
Conflict is on here, right?
So fear of conflict was one of the dysfunctions.
How do you handle conflict in a high performing team?
Mm.
Yeah.
Um, I think, boy, that's a great question, Mike.
I think conflict is inevitable.
And if you don't have conflict, then you're not on a performing team, I would argue.
(18:56):
Right.
And so knowing your audience, right.
I think we talked a little bit about not having ego.
And I think if you don't have ego, then you're not incentivized to come in and gunsblazing in an incorrect forum and have conflict, right?
You understand your audience, you know, Hey, do I need to take this off offline and have aconversation?
with somebody?
Do I need to take a beat before I come back and talk to somebody?
(19:20):
Am I gonna wait my turn?
Am I listening enough before I raise an opposing view?
Am I listening to respond or am I listening to understand?
So thinking about some of those things as you walk into conflict.
I like that distinction.
(19:41):
I listening to respond or am I listening to hear?
I know you said it differently.
The other thing you said I thought was interesting was knowing your audience.
When I think about this topic, I think about the idea of emotional intelligence.
EQ as opposed to IQ.
Many people have probably heard that before IQ, this sort traditional intelligencequotient.
(20:03):
The newer one was this EQ, emotional quotient, this idea for uh how well do you
sort of know yourself emotionally and how well can you uh read and understand andempathize with people around you so you know what, can sort of understand what they might
be thinking and feeling, right?
(20:23):
And I think some of the best leaders that I've known had a very high EQ and just absolutetremendous control over uh their emotions, because we're passionate people, we get
passionate about stuff, control over their emotions.
You know, always um calm thinking and also understanding the people around them.
(20:46):
They ask them the questions and trying to understand what motivates people.
um And I think that's really important to dealing with conflict constructively.
Yeah, I completely agree.
Okay.
So um let me ask this question.
What do you think?
So we're talking about all the good things about a high performing team.
We're talking about what makes a high performing team and some of the hallmarks of it.
(21:11):
What do you think?
What are some of the anti-patterns?
mean, let's sort of shift that over.
Let's flip it over a little bit and talk about teams that maybe are not there yet.
What are some of the anti-patterns or the things that we think can prevent a team from,you know, becoming high performing?
Yeah, I do think that if you sit in a room and you, you know.
(21:34):
it appears that you agree on something and everybody walks away and gets out of the roomand then like travels on a different path.
Like, whoa, wait a minute, that's not what we agreed to.
Or somebody, you know, speaks their mind behind closed doors about, well, I really didn'tagree with that.
You know, just the lack of consensus and honoring the consensus that is driven in meetingsis a great way to like undermine a team's performance.
(22:04):
And it happens a lot.
I think there's a tendency to not want to raise your hand or have a discussion or fall inline with a decision that you may not agree to, but you got to act as a collective team
and execute as planned.
Yeah, I think that starts from the team leader.
(22:25):
I think about how I would draw a contrast between a high performing team and maybe a nonhigh performing team.
I think about my experience in witnessing and participating in team meetings.
High performing and one I would consider not high performing right, especially when you'retalking about organizational teams, teams where your bosses in the room.
This is why I say it starts from the leader in a high performing team.
(22:48):
remember the boss coming in and oh
and ultimately opening the meeting and saying, all right, what are we trying toaccomplish?
How are we doing?
What are the challenges?
do we get, uh know, basically, you know, uh simply turning the room and the team loose,right?
And in those meetings, if that leader was out, didn't matter, we still meet because thatleader wasn't necessary.
(23:13):
Let me say it differently, nothing that wasn't necessary, but it wasn't, it didn't stop usfrom operating as a team.
They had enabled us to operate as a team and therefore they didn't have to be in themeeting.
We could still and would still feel enabled and empowered to continue to advance whateverour objective would be.
The reverse of that, I see a lot of times, I see team meetings and departmental meetingswhere it's essentially the leader holding court.
(23:42):
Either coming in and spending 50 to 60 to 70 % of the meeting talking.
sharing information and sort of promoting themselves and the things they know, I don'tmean to be um derisive about that, but it's sort of feel like I'm gonna tell you things
that you need to know, and then I'm going to let you uh petition me for the things youwant me to, the decisions you want me to make, or I'm gonna ask you what you're doing,
(24:11):
what you're working on, and then we're gonna walk out and that's the end of the meeting.
Yep.
And the problem with that is, clearly no shared objectives as a team.
Each one of the folks in the room are probably managing the department well in whateverway they need to manage their department.
So we sort of miss an opportunity with these people in a room to have shared goals atwhatever level we're talking about and be going after something different than just
(24:40):
reporting on how our departments are performing, right?
Night.
So real distinction for me, stark contrast in those types of meetings, high performing andmaybe not high performing team.
and you talk a little bit about, it starts with the leader.
I high performing teams.
mean, in my opinion, a majority of high performing teams start with excellent leadership.
(25:06):
And I'd ask you, do you feel like you could be on a high performing team and not have aleader that is strong?
I don't think I have been on a team I would consider high performing without a strongleader because they do set the tone.
I think so too, right?
And so like it begs the question of if you're not on a high performing team as anindividual contributor or maybe a manager on that, can you have influence to make things
(25:35):
better or move it into the direction of a high performing team?
Yeah.
me repeat the question, I think it's a good one, which is if you're on a team and yourecognize maybe we're not a high performing team and we want to become one, how do you
influence that?
And especially if you're an individual contributor.
(25:55):
You wanna share your thoughts first on that?
I got some thoughts.
Sure.
uh I think you have to show an example of it.
uh So leading by example of, you know, maybe being the first one to share a vulnerabilityor uh ask a clarifying question that might seem silly.
uh
(26:16):
you know, encourage others to do the same thing.
If somebody also asks a question of being that first person to say, that's a really goodquestion.
had that same thing too.
uh And just trying to lead by example, but it can be lonely and it can be frustrating.
But I would say it's an effort worth pursuing and not giving up on because high performingteams are just so darn important.
(26:43):
Yeah.
What are your thoughts?
Yeah.
think back on, the question is on how does an individual contributor help a team becomehigh performing?
And I agree with you, it is about modeling those behaviors.
And it sort of reminds me of, and again, we're really talking mostly about organizationalteams here, where the boss might be in the room, And it reminds me, I've been a people
(27:06):
leader for most of my career.
And we used to do performance reviews every year.
we had a, I think with McKesson, had a form and these sort of stock questions and we wouldrate people on these questions.
And two of the questions for many years, I would often put an A.
And the two questions were, the two sort of topics were influence others and the secondwas develop talent.
(27:33):
so oftentimes for individual contributors, would say, well, that's not applicable.
They're not necessarily,
Their job isn't necessarily to influence others and they're not in a position to developtalent.
When we started adopting Agile seriously and started building cross-functional,autonomous, self-organized teams, all of that changed.
(27:54):
And suddenly you could see, and you did create an environment where the people in theteams were being asked to influence each other, to being asked to participate, to share
their feedback, to share their perspective.
And if they feel strongly,
convinced the team.
So they were modeling that behavior.
And then they also, the environment allowed for them to invest in each other and they weredeveloping talent.
(28:18):
So sort of two areas where a contributor in a team, a team member can model behaviors thatreally help promote that team towards becoming really high performing.
Yeah, I remember uh actually by accident stumbling, honestly, stumbling into a planningmeeting with a team and the scrum master had the courage to say, hey, do you have any
(28:45):
questions?
Happy to meet with you offline, but really wanted this to be a team thing.
And so I'm going to have to ask you to leave as a leader.
Right.
And so
Promoting having a role and being an individual contributor, but also shepherding the teamwanting to support the team and having the courage to influence leaders.
(29:11):
I mean that's power.
You know, that's magic.
Powerful, I guess.
that's a good situation though you bring up because I see that in transformation.
I know you probably do too.
As we build agile teams and these virtual teams and these network of cross-functionalpeople focused around a specific deliverable or product or service, the role of the
(29:33):
manager often changes or the department, the development director or the quality director,these folks who maybe have traditionally been part of a organization where they were doing
a lot of
directing, they were doing a lot of maybe task management and things like that.
we're trying to build autonomous self-organizing teams that don't need someone to tellthem specifically what to do because product management and backlogs and all of that
(29:57):
practice that we do will tell them what the most important thing to do is.
And they'll figure out the best way to deliver on whatever the objective is.
So it changes the role of the manager where now if I'm in charge of a developmentorganization or a quality department or things like that, my focus is how do I
help enable all of the people in my care, or maybe the people that report through me insome way in my care, who are out in their respective virtual teams.
(30:26):
So now my team, the people that report organizationally, I have to look at that verydifferently.
And it is some things like one, not going to their meetings so that they can develop theirskills and their autonomy and be able to decentralize some of those decisions.
And it can also change the focus saying, do my folks need?
The folks who report to me, what do they need?
(30:46):
What can I provide them to give them the tools, the skills, the competency, the confidenceto go out into these teams and be productive?
And that's hard oftentimes to do, because a very big shift, that's the servant leadershipshift, right?
It's a very hard shift for many people to make.
Yeah, and it could be uncomfortable.
It can be an unknown.
(31:07):
m You know, I totally see that quite a bit.
I mean, I think that is probably one of the bigger things that get in the way of atransformation of that, of those managers kind of resisting a little bit because they
don't know what that looks like is something so different to them.
making that shift is big.
It's really important and it pays off in spades, but it can be very difficult.
(31:33):
Yeah, and it's probably top five struggles, I think, I've seen um repeating in differentorganizations and different transformations, because change is scary, right?
And people are like, where do I fit in this new model?
And getting them over that fear and teaching them a different way to lead is difficult,right?
(31:59):
And I'd be remiss if I didn't.
mentioned why that's so important, I think, to have expert help when, if you are in aposition where you're going, you're trying to build high performing teams and or adopt or
re-adopt or reform uh your practices, agile practices or lean practices or otherwise.
So let's, we're getting close to time here, I think.
(32:22):
Let me ask this question.
And I think we've talked about a lot of good stuff so far, but as far as takeaways, right?
If we had to pick three actionable
Insights for listeners right three sort of takeaways and I'll ask this in two differentparts, right?
The first would be What would we encourage?
Folks that are listening that are leaders of teams that want to build the environment forhigh-performing team What three?
(32:48):
Actional insights would you encourage them to take things and I'm gonna ask the questionagain in a minute on sort of team members, right?
So leaders We think
Set the tone.
Right?
Set the tone, right?
You're there to make sure that there's an environment where people can collaborate, askquestions, are held accountable, work together.
(33:09):
um Two, lead by example.
You know, build trust.
Do what you say you're going to do.
um Say what you mean, mean what you say.
And three, really promote a place where you can grow together.
Have the book clubs, have, you know, Slack channels that say, hey, here's what I'mreading, you know, talk about what you're learning.
(33:30):
Inspire others to do the same thing.
And really be aware, this is a fourth bonus one, is be aware, have empathy.
Continue to work on that, right?
Don't give up on creating that space.
That's a point.
So how about team members?
We spent a little time talking about those.
(33:51):
What do you think?
Three actionable insights for team members who want their team to grow and develop into ahigh performing team.
Yeah, and I'll reiterate, this is harder, right?
This is harder to lead by influence and be a member um in an environment having to leadthat way.
Just model the behavior.
um
you know, in those little ways where you can in meetings, in emails, in communications.
(34:18):
Two is don't give up.
Don't give up on influencing to become a high performing team.
And the third is like continuously improve yourself, you know, grow and learn and do thosethings that read books, stay inquisitive and grow your practice.
(34:40):
Yeah, terrific.
Well, listen, Heather, thank you for the time and for being with us.
We could continue for an hour, I'm sure, on this topic alone.
But we want to keep these somewhat short, hopefully, and consumable for the folks thatlisten.
In our next episode, we're still working on our next episode, but our next episode, let metease that a little bit, we're going to really talk about change.
(35:08):
Bye.
What does it take to make real change happen?
Wonder some of the reasons why change fails?
ah So I know that that's one that hopefully, of course, you could have a lot to say onthat as well.
So looking forward to making that one.
And look, I'd like to have you back.
let's pick another topic sometime soon if you don't mind, and we'll do another one.
We'll talk about some of these other things that we've seen over the many years together.
(35:32):
I would love to, yes, thank you for having me.
It's been great.
Thank you.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.