#160 | Beyond Labels: Reimagining How We Get Things Done with Lenka Pincot & Sandy Mamoli - Agile Ideas

Episode Transcript
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Fatimah Abbouchi (00:00):
You're listening to Agile Ideas, the
podcast hosted by FatimahAbbouchi.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm CEO, at AMO, mental HealthAmbassador and your host on

(00:21):
today's podcast.
We have both a returning guestand also a secondary guest who
is also going to be on thepodcast today, and she and my
original guest have cometogether to talk about a very
important subject and we'll getinto all of that.
But first let me introduce youto both Lenka Pincot, who is the

(00:45):
Chief of Staff, and a returningguest Chief of Staff to the CEO
of the Project ManagementInstitute and a global executive
leader.
Lenka oversees theTransformation Management Office
, enterprise Program ManagementCEO, and Board Communications
and the thought leadership teamsin the global not-for-profit
organisation.
Her role is to define and drivethe organisation's strategic

(01:09):
initiatives, ensure seamlessexecution of new strategies and
enhance PMI organisationalagility and foster a culture of
innovation and excellence acrossall levels.
Lenka brings extensiveinternational experience and a
proven track record in settingand executing strategic vision,
digital and agile transformationleadership, cultural shifts and

(01:30):
enhancing organisationalagility.
Lenka holds a Master of Sciencein Computer Sciences, software
Engineering, from CharlesUniversity and has earned a
Digital Excellence Diploma fromIMD Business School of
Switzerland and completed theEuropean Women in Boards C-Level
program.
She also has a number ofcertifications that are
internationally recognised.

(01:52):
Joining Lenka today is alsoSandy Mamoli.
Sandy is one of New Zealand'sleading agile coaches.
A force of positive energy anda former Olympic athlete, she
works with leaders and teams,guiding them towards high
performance with an approachthat is hands-on, no-nonsense
and steeped in agile.
She's also the co-author ofCreating Great Teams how

(02:14):
Self-Selection Lets People Excel.
Sandy is a sought-afterpresenter and international
keynote speaker, as well as amember of the Global Agile
Alliance Board.
She has a master's degree inartificial intelligence, is a
high-achieving, goal-drivenperson who also perhaps
unsurprisingly really intoCrossFit.
So please join me in welcomingSandy and Lenka to the show.

(02:37):
Sandy and Lenka, welcome to theshow.

Lenka Pincot (02:42):
Oh, thanks for having us.

Sandy Mamoli (02:44):
Yeah, hello.
Thank you and thanks for havingus here.

It's a pleasure.
I was saying earlier, Lenkareturned guests, so thank you
for a second time, which will begreat and Sandy's first time
meeting each other.
But from what I've read aboutyour background and bio, some
really fascinating things inthere, and one of them really
caught my attention.
So I'm going to start with you.
Former Olympic athlete, tell memore.

It's in a sport that you probably have never
heard about, because it isreally big in Europe and Latin
America and it's called Handball.
And in case you're thinkingthat little thing where you're
playing the playground inAustralia and New Zealand, it's
not it.
So we're talking, uh, Handball.
It's uh been Olympics since the70s.

(03:29):
It's uh the second largestsports in um in Central and
Northern Europe and um,basically, I think, Football,
Soccer on land.
I spent my entire youth playingHandball and then went to the
92 Olympics and it's a long timeago but it was fun.

I mean don't downplay it.
No matter what the sport, youmade it into the Olympics.
I certainly can't say I've donethat, Lenka, any crazy,
ridiculous stories like that.

No, no, no, I think nothing can beat it and I
mean wow, pretty remarkable.

So you know, just carrying on from that
excellent start, Sandy, tell usa little bit about your
background.
For those that you know don'tknow your work and what you do,
tell us a little bit about whatyour work is and what your
background is, give us a coupleof minutes overview about
yourself.

Sure, so I'm basically ancient, because I'm
in my third or fourth careerright now.
I started out being aprofessional Handball player and
going to the Olympics and then,at the age of about 25, I
realised I had to grow up if Idid not want to end up in a
low-level job and I actuallywanted to use my brain for the

(04:44):
rest of my life.
So I went to uni and startedcomputational linguistics, which
is a sub-field of artificialintelligence, and delved into

(05:05):
the world of MIN and DBA and Iworked in Copenhagen, Amsterdam
and Stockholm.
I lived in Copenhagen for areally long time and then moved
to New Zealand and because I hadbeen working agile since 2003,
I thought it was completelynormal this is how work was done
.
Moved to New Zealand and gotthe shock of my life going 'oh

(05:27):
my god' what are people doing?
I don't want to work in this way.
And I hadn't realised that I'dbeen living in a bubble like it
was absolutely not normal that Iwas in a bubble in Amsterdam
and Copenhagen.
So it was not normal workingthat way.
But what I realised was twothings one, I wanted to keep
working that way so started tocreate my own pockets, and the

(05:49):
other thing I realised that Iwas probably an average
developer, but for a tech person, I was pretty good at talking
to people, and so I startedcoaching, started influencers,
started building my own pockets,and, and at the beginning they
were a team and then theycrashed into all the
organisational boundaries that Ihad no idea about, and so I had

(06:11):
to learn about how that worked,and by after a few years, my
pockets of playgrounds grew tothe size of organisation of
trade, me or several thousandpeople, and in the process of
this I also started a company,because it's quite lonely doing
this by myself.
I wanted to have some friends,so I started a company, and I've

(06:32):
been involved in the Agilecommunity since 2003.
I started Agile Valley in NewZealand, which is a meetup group
with over a thousand people,and it's been going for 18 years
now.
And at some point I looked moreinternationally and got the
chance to join the board of theAgile Alliance in like about a

(06:52):
year and a half ago, and here weare.

Amazing.
What a career, and I'mespecially interested in the
relationship of Agile ways ofworking in corporate and how
that relates to teamwork, and sowe'll get into that as well.
But thank you for starting usoff, Lenka, when we last time
spoke, you talked a little bitabout your background, but for
those that weren't fortunate tolisten to that episode, tell me

(07:18):
a little bit about what you'vebeen up to lately, and in
particular, since you and Sandyhave connected, I'm curious to
know, from an Agile perspective,was there anything that really
stood out for you?
That was a differing ofopinions.

Well, I don't think we had many opportunities
to come to any differences inour opinions yet, but we just
started to work together veryrecently, ever since Agile
Alliance entered this, let's say, next level of the strategic
partnership with PMI, with theProject Management Institute.

(07:52):
So what am I up to lately?
So I keep working at theProject Management Institute.
I work in the role of the Chiefof Staff to the CEO and keep
running my teams and we talkedabout that last time with
Fatimah when we talked aboutPMOs, because one of my teams is
our enterprise projectmanagement office, our

(08:14):
transformation management office, and I keep working with our
thought leadership team andcommunications.
So not so many changes on myend when it comes to my job or
work.
But what is really exciting isthat now I have the opportunity
to be the PMI representative onthe Agile Alliance Board of
Directors, and that's somethingthat is really awesome, I would

(08:36):
say, because for me it's anopportunity to go back to Agile,
to be closer and work withpeople like Sandy.

And so, thinking about everything that
you've read your bio, you'redoing a lot at the moment and
you've done a lot, so justadding this additional role is,
you know, just a piece of cakeby the sounds of it.
What was the sort of thethinking behind this new
partnership between PMI andAgile Alliance?
Why now Lenka from a PMIperspective?

Well.
So I'm realizing that this isprobably not well known, but
Agile Alliance and ProjectManagement Institute were in a
strategic partnership foralready a couple of years.
Because there is a thing and weshould probably talk about it
project management as adiscipline is not set in stone.

(09:29):
It keeps evolving because it'sa discipline, it's a function
that needs to supportorganisation in their strategies
and needs to go hand in handwith the development and
evolution of organisation andindustries and the business
landscape.
So project management as we knewit, let's say, 50 years ago, is
very different from what wehave right now.

(09:49):
So the convergence and, let'ssay, blending of different
approaches was happening alreadyfor several years.
So then, at a certain point oftime, project Management
Institute and Agile Allianceworked together and created PMI
Agile Practice Guide, andcontent of that practice guide
is the cornerstone for our PMIACP certification Agile

(10:12):
Certified Practitioner.
So we worked together alreadyfor several years.
But now there was a time wherewe saw that there are more
opportunities, we can help eachother more, and so we entered
this another level of strategicpartnership, and since then
we've worked even closertogether.

And Sandy, was there anything from your
perspective that you wanted toadd in terms of the relationship
now and evolving that furtherbeyond what you've had over the
last few years?

Yeah, I want to take what Linka was saying and
compare it to we've been engagedfor a really long time and we
were quite happily being engaged, and then now we've decided to
marry and, like any marriage,there is, like it's, two fully
whole people, two fullyindependent people who together

(11:06):
can create a magic that is morethan just the sum of its parts.
And, um, my hopes are that, uh,we, uh, we will find
differences of opinions, becausethat will give a spark that
will enrich all of us.
And, um, I, yeah, and I thinkthat's actually all I wanted to
add to what Lincoln was saying,because I wholeheartedly agree
and I couldn't have told itbetter.

And then so you both.
You mentioned the word spark.
It's a good segue.
There was a lot of excitementand a lot of concern.
I was coming off maternityleave and I just remember a
flurry of comments and posts andpeople giving their two cents
without actually probably askingyou both the questions or
understanding what it means.
Or, to your point, there hasbeen like agile's been infused

(11:50):
in the PMI for a long time.
I recall doing the, you know,agile practitioner training and
all of these other things.
There's been a lot of that.
People have probably even notknown or not taken the time to
find out.
So what do you both think isthe either concern or the
excitement?
You've probably spoken to a lotof people, so maybe from both
angles, what are you seeing orhearing in that space?

Yeah, so I'm happy to start.
So you know, when it comes tothe project management global
community, these guys they arereally.
They are over the moon.
They are very excited becauselots of them actually work in
agile environment for some timeand they really appreciate it,
because some of them and I don'trecall Fatimah, we talked about

(12:38):
that as well.
I remember that I talked aboutthat on several other podcasts
when I made that move fromproject management to agile way
of working, I was attacked, if Imay say that, on this podcast,
you know, I faced a lot of anger, a lot of pushback, kind of
like what are you doing here?

(12:58):
How dare you enter our space?
And I was like wow, like what'sgoing on, like like why there
are so many different opinionsand what's what's such a big
deal if someone works certainway and then someone works
different way?
So I kept thinking about it alot and I think that the thing
is with the agile movement thatit's not only about ways of
working and you know we usethese boards instead of these

(13:22):
charts, whatever that's.
That's on the point but a partof that movement is a big
cultural movement and I thinkthat the worry is that this
cultural movement will beneglected.
That's the interpretation that Ihave, because I also saw on
social media a lot of reactionsthat might not be as positive as
reactions from our community,but in our community people are

(13:42):
basically saying this like thislike hey, guys, we are here to
deliver, so let's just just letus work.
Okay, we don't want to be partof these fights.
Like for us, we just choose themethod, that method that works
for us.
If we have a problem in frontof us, let us choose the way we
we work on that.
We want to deliver and we don'twant to be part of um, you know
these disputes and being toldthat you are bad because you are

(14:05):
a project manager.

Sandy, did you want to add anything?

Yeah, I think we are seeing concerns too, and
first of all, I want to say thatthere's a lot of opinions out
there and people are reacting,and I think that's a positive
thing because that means peoplecare.
If we have absolutely zeroreaction, that will probably be
the worst thing, and I thinkthat's a positive thing because
that means people care.
If we have absolutely zeroreaction, that will probably be
the worst thing.
So it is important to peopleand I think that is really good.

(14:31):
And from an Agile perspective,what we see in the Agile
community is concerns that Agilewill be destroyed, that we'll
all be be project management,that will all be very
process-oriented, that we willforget about the values and the
principles and it will be allabout process.
It will be all aboutcertifications.

(14:53):
Is the Agile Alliance going toissue certifications now and
part of it?
I can answer straight away wewon't issue certifications as
the Agile Alliance, but I alsodo share the concerns that, yes,
will it move us into adirection that's too process
focused?
And I hope not, and it'sdefinitely a risk.

(15:14):
But anything we do there is arisk.
And saying that, I also thinkthat it brings this huge
opportunity, because times havechanged and we now are facing
different problems and the worldof work is totally changing,
and I think that it's onlytogether with different

(15:36):
perspectives and different endsof the spectrum of predictable
versus adaptive that we can lookat problems and solve them
together.
So I think it's going to moveeverything forward and I hope
that people who have concernswill buy into that vision and
understand the vision and makeit work Because concerns are not

(15:57):
just there to be ignored andhope that other people make sure
the risks don't eventuate.
That's up to all of us, whetherin the Agile community or in
the project management community.
It's something that we need tomake sure the risks don't
eventuate.
That's up to all of us, whetherin the agile community or in
the project management community.
It's something that we need tomake sure doesn't happen and we
need to make sure that we cangrab the opportunity that we now
have.

I think that's really good points.
One thing I do want to commendyou both on is the openness and
transparency in which you'vecommunicated what you're doing
and admitting that there arethings that are unknown, and now
just calling out that there arerisks.
I think that's really a reallypositive thing, and one of the
things that I do tend to likeabout a lot of the things I'm
seeing in this space is theopenness to receive feedback and

(16:38):
literally take that feedback onboard and assess it and see
whether it changes anything thatyou're doing.
So I think that's reallypositive.
From a lot of the commentary Imean, I wrote an article about
it and I got some feedback andcomments it seems to be there's
two, just sort of two focusareas in terms of people.
Those are obviously reallyexcited and those are a bit
challenged by what's happening.

(17:00):
I feel like for the traditionalproject management you know
world where I grew up 20 yearsago, coming into this space,
which was following the guidanceof PMI, you've got that sort of
protective nature protectproject management at all costs
and then, on the other side ofit, you've got the agile purists
that are, you know, as you said, Sandy that are referencing

(17:20):
something that you know wasgreat at a point in time, but
not willing to go past that.
Or look at adaptability andevolving and that.
So I think you've got a bit ofa challenge there.
But I guess one of the biggestopportunities and I'm keen to
know how you're going to do moreabout this is project
management itself is still anunknown for a lot of those that
aren't involved in projects dayto day in organisations Think of

(17:42):
those that are in operationalteams and then you add the sort
of agile layer on top which, fora lot of people, they don't
understand either.
So how will we be bridging thegap in the knowledge of both
project management and thenagile?
Like what's some thinking thatyou're doing in that space?

Yeah.
So this is a great debatebecause I think that, fatima,
you're absolutely right, weshould move away from these
debates that there is one way ofworking and other way of
working.
And is it better?
Isn't it better that there'snot the right question, like we
need to be able to choose theright way of working for the
right situation that we have outof us.
But then what is the vision?
So, if you look at the work thatthe project management

(18:21):
institute is doing recently, soin 2024, when we released our
new purpose to maximize projectsuccess, to elevate our world,
we also worked on a very largeresearch that is, to understand
what actually is project successand how we can increase the
probability of project success.
And when we say project success, we mean it holistically.

(18:42):
I know that there is like alinguistic challenge how do you
include everything under oneword?
Because when we say project, wemean all these initiatives,
whether they are deliveredpurely.
You know, like I have a planand I work on it, or I have a
program and I have some agileteams helping me achieve the
objectives for the program, or Ihave even a small portfolio, et

(19:04):
cetera.
So we call it project successjust for the lack of a better
word and we work on the broadervision for the profession.
That, again, is agnostic.
So in that broader vision thatwe have and that we pursue, it's
not about a particular method,it's more about continuum of
different ways of working.
And then, in this vision, itshould not matter anymore what

(19:29):
you do on a detail level.
The vision is why are weactually doing it and how do we
increase that project successand why do we even want to
increase it?
So why?
Because, when you look aroundall the change, all the
uncertainty, we need to be ableto embrace it.
organisation are successfulwhen they are able to.
We need to be able to embraceit.
organisation are successfulwhen they are able to transform,
when they are able to embracethat continuous change and

(19:51):
perpetual transformation.
And for that they need projects.
And if I say projects agileteams, you know all these teams
that help them to deliver ontheir strategy.
And our broader vision is todrive the profession through
that transformation so thatpeople can increase success of
these initiatives.
That's the vision on which wewant to work, together with

(20:12):
Agile Alliance and also otherorganisation who want to be part
of that.

I think that that opens up opportunities as
well.
Obviously, there's someindustries that Agile maybe
doesn't play in, even thoughit's versatile enough that it
can be.
Do you find, Sandy thinkingabout it from an adoption
perspective and from aneducational perspective that
maybe Agile can spread to moreindustries that maybe project
management traditionally playsin?

(20:38):
That Agile seems to be at oddswith?

I would certainly hope to.
I hope that is the case whenit's appropriate.
I don't think we should just beagile for agile's sake.
So some of the industries Ithink can learn a lot from agile
and some of the practices andsome of the the principles will
be be applicable, and I thinkthat will be absolutely great.
And I think a lot of them arestill missing out because they

(21:03):
might not have been exposed toagile in the past, and I hope
that is of them are stillmissing out because they might
not have been exposed to agilein the past, and I hope that is
something that we can help withand bridge that gap.
At the same time we are.
There are also industries whereagile should probably not be
used or their context whereagile is the wrong choice, but I
do think that everyone,whichever industry, should be
familiar with both philosophers,both concepts and practices and

(21:27):
guidelines in both areas, so wecan just choose whatever is
appropriate for a context, for aculture, and sometimes we can
also, as a one person, switchback and forth.
I'm perfectly capable to workin uh, in a traditional project
environment sometimes, and othertimes in a 100% agile

(21:47):
environment and anything inbetween.
So I think I would love forpeople to be a lot less uptight
about this and just see it asthere's lots of good stuff, and
if we can figure out which goodstuff to use when, then we all
win.

And then so, thinking about both of what
you've said, how do we measuresuccess?
How do you know?
What are your KPIs ormeasurements to say we're on the
right track and we're doing theright thing?
What sort of measures have yougot in place or that you're
intending on putting in place?

Well, so we first of all, what is very important
for us is the response from ourcommunity.
That's very important theresponse from our project
professionals, from Agileprofessionals, and we are
monitoring these responses invarious ways.
Basically, what we are followingis not only if people are happy
about something that we do like.

(22:43):
We saw a lot of people beinghappy about this strategic
partnership and integration ofPMI and Agile Alliance, but
that's not the end.
What we want is to contributeto the profession and help
people to be more successful intheir jobs and in their careers.
So this is something that Iwould definitely call as one of
the measure of success.
And then, because we worktogether on listing several very

(23:07):
specific initiatives of ourcollaboration, then indeed we
will be measuring success ofthese particular initiatives.
So, just to give you a betteridea, what are we talking about?
We are planning to do someresearch initiatives together
when we look deeper in topicssuch as enterprise agility or
product management.
We are also investing in topicssuch as AI artificial

(23:32):
intelligence and its impact onagile ways of working and then
these initiatives will betranslated in learning courses,
some content, discussions,webinars, events, reports and
for these we can again measurethe feedback and see if people
find it useful and if it'smoving them somewhere.

I think it's really interesting.
You mentioned AI and productmanagement.
Product management is notsomething that normally, I guess
, is more visible, so that'sgoing to be a really interesting
shift, I think, to see the PMItalking more about that.
Sandy, how do you manage theperception that Agile Alliance

(24:17):
might lose its independent voiceby being part of, or under or
in partnership with, pmi, whichI'm sure some people probably
are thinking?

Yes, I think in those cases, it's less about
managing perception as making ita reality, so making sure that
we do not lose our independencebecause we haven't.
We're still following the samemission and we're still at the
same purpose and we are justpart of PMI now and we still

(24:47):
have the same board that givesdirection, with just one
addition, which is Linker, and Ithink that's a great addition.
So, instead of managing just aperception, I think we uh make
sure that this is reality and uhthat we do really good work,
that we are follow thoseinitiatives that Lenka just

(25:07):
mentioned, which should benefiteveryone, and not forget our
roots and our ambition, which isto help people be agile and
explore agile ways of workingand values and principles, and I
think we can stick to that and,as long as we are honest about
it, do this we are going to.

(25:28):
The perception will followreality.

Lenka, did you want to add anything from your
perspective?

Yeah, you know, I was thinking when I was
preparing for this podcast.
I was thinking what could be afor this podcast.
I was thinking what could be agood analogy to explain the?

whole.

Thing and I apologize, I couldn't come with
anything better than thinkingabout food, so I'm happy with
that.
So imagine so, when you look atall these and I call it
purposefully delivery practices,you have a lot of different
ingredients, because you know,like we are recently we are

(26:04):
really trying to push back onthat word when someone is saying
traditional project management,because we are trying to
encourage people.
Look at the history a littlebit like things are changing.
What even is traditionalproject management?
I don't believe it existsanymore and we don't know what

(26:26):
that even is.
Traditional project managementI don't believe it exists
anymore and we don't know whatwhat that even is like.
I personally, I'm in businessfor around 25 years.
Uh, when we were working onprojects 25 years ago, it was so
different than than what wehave today, so okay, so so back
to the dish analogy.
So imagine, imagine that forany practice that you apply,
it's an ingredient, right, soit's an ingredient, and if you
eat it on its own, it's good,it's delicious, like, imagine, I
don't know, salad leaves andchicken and cherry tomatoes,

(26:49):
right, so you can still havethis delicious chicken and
delicious cherry tomato and youwill be totally happy.
But what we are trying tocreate is a dish.
When we put these thingstogether and putting them
together, it does not meanblending them and losing them.
You can perfectly put a cherrytomato next to chicken, next to
salad leaf.
It's a delicious dish.
You don't need to compromisethem.

(27:10):
They still as they are, butthen together they form
something bigger.
And that bigger for us is thatvision for the project
profession, the broader visionthat is there to help
organisation to create impactfor societies by allowing and
training and growing andelevating all these
professionals, to giving thempractices and tools so that they

(27:31):
can do the best they can whenthey are facing a challenge
initiative to deliver.
So this is what we're trying toachieve.
So all these, these debates,like I don't know, is agile
going to be compromised?
No, of course not, because whythere's?
No, no one wants that right.
What we want is just to takethese pieces and build something

(27:51):
bigger, greater.

Yes, and I also think that our job now is PMI
and Agile Alliance is to guidepeople to create a delicious
dish and not now add jam and adonut to the chicken and the
tomatoes and the avocado,because that'd be disgusting.
So I hope that they mix theright ingredients for their
context and their tastes and Ithink our job is to guide them

(28:18):
and their tastes, and I thinkour job is to guide them.

Yeah, and I will give you I'm so sorry, I will
give you a specific example sothat we don't talk only about
dishes and chicken and cherries,tomatoes, but the thing is, but
also people probably do notknow that much.
So in our own home, at theProject Management Institute,
when we deliver, when we work onsomething and, for instance,
take this PMI by AI initiative,so that is an initiative that
has a lot of impact on ourcommunity, a lot of outputs.

(28:45):
We are very transparent.
This initiative is very visibleNow how this initiative is
actually executed.
So, in our own world, in ourenterprise project portfolio,
pmi by AI is one item on ourenterprise project portfolio
list and that item is a littleportfolio on its own because we
have some parts of this.

(29:06):
Initiatives are literally littleprojects.
Sometimes we call them workstreams.
Then we have agile teams thatare working on our AI offerings
and then we have colleagues thatrun established processes,
functions that contribute to PMIby AI outcome.
This is how we manage thingsand very originally, when we

(29:29):
were launching PMI by AI, it wasmore a project because we need
to build these agile teams.
We didn't have that team.
When we were starting with PMIby AI, we needed to build some
processes and functions and asthis initiative evolves, then we
adjust our ways of working,which we consider perfectly
normal.

I really like the food analogy, and I don't
know, because it's 7.30 PM,dinner time for me and I haven't
had it yet, so I'm going tostay on that for one second.
I just want to circle back.
You both spoke about um, theingredients and then, Sandy, you
talked about the, the finaldish.
What you both didn't say, whichI appreciate and I think we
should really recall um, thismoment we didn't you didn't

(30:12):
either of you talk about.
We're going to give you therecipe to get to the end result,
and I think this is the trueessence when we think about
project management and Agile andall of these things is we can
tell you what ingredients aregoing to work and we can tell
you what maybe doesn't, based onfeedback, but you're not giving
anyone the recipe, which isreally the essence of figuring

(30:32):
out what works for you andcrossing over Agile and project
management, as people are usedto having it, I think, is
completely normal.
It's exactly what I'm seeing in20, 30 companies over the last
10 years, and I think that weshould just not forget that.
So I just wanted to touch onthat.
But one of the things that cometo my mind that I wrote about

(30:53):
recently in that article is noone owns Agile.
I mean, agile Alliance is doingsome great work.
There's other organisation outthere leading charge with
project management and Agile andno one owns Agile.
No one owns project management.
But I think, going back to thecommunity, it's helping to guide
the community based on thisthought, leadership and best
practice and all of that.
So I think what's really goingto be important, going back to

(31:15):
the earlier point, is makingsure that whatever it is that
your team is doing Lenka, youjust gave a really good example
that everyone's on the same pagewith what it is that you're
doing, whether it's this way orthat way.
So I think that's probably theeducation piece that maybe is
missing.
That's kind of what I'm seeing.
Would you agree that that's asignificant gap for organisation

(31:37):
and teams?

Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that and I like
the way you said that no one isgiving anyone a recipe, because
there is no single recipe.
What we need to provide areexamples, peer-to-peer learning,
bringing up experts from ourcommunity, people who can talk
about their real experience,share their examples, different

(32:03):
practice guides, learningopportunities for people who
want to start from the beginningor want to advance all of it.
But then, after all, you alwaysneed to assess your current
situation, see what is special,what is unique, what is the same
, where you can learn fromprevious experiences and then go

(32:24):
and try and then be ready toadjust.

And sometimes you do need recipes, and what I
think what we should do is guidepeople to figure out are you in
a context where you're tryingto bake a cake or in a context
where you are making a deliciousstew?
And, depending on that, ifyou're baking well, I hope you
will go out and find a recipe,because you need to be exact,

(32:48):
you need to plan a lot up frontand you can't just open the oven
in the middle of the bakingprocedure and add sugar.
It's too late.
Or are you making a stew stew,in which case you should find
ways to sense and respond andadapt and go oh, it needs a bit
more salt, that needs a bit of aherb or whatever it is, and

(33:10):
helping people, knowing whichsituation they're in so they can
choose should I find a recipeor should I work in a different
way?
So which methods andingredients should I choose?
And I think it's a fun placefor us to be in and I think we
could be really helpful there,and I love that nobody owns
agile and that nobody ownsprojects or products, and I

(33:35):
think it's it's a field likecooking or medicine Nobody owns
it.
There are just many good and afew bad practices.

Yes, 100%, and we try to weed those bad
practices out by sharing some ofthis thought leadership for
sure.
So we've talked briefly.
Ai came up, product managementI'm curious about both from your
perspective.
But when we think about productmanagement, I'm keen to know
maybe Lenka with you initiallywhat, if anything, with the you

(34:08):
know, thinking about theterminology of product
management, what sort of, whatare some of the things that PMI
is looking at doing in thisspace?
Or is that going to start toevolve more now that Agile
Alliance, which probably hasgreater emphasis on that space?
So tell me a bit more aboutthat.

Yeah.
So when I was talking aboutthis broader topic of project
success and our purpose andbroadening the vision for the
profession, we were also lookingat topics that should be part
of that broader vision of theprofession, and product
management is on that list.
We call them content platforms.
Content platforms in a sensethat some topics that should

(34:47):
spark discussion, should sparkthought leadership, etc.
So we started to look intoproduct management already one
year or two years back, when wewere first trying to understand
what is the difference betweenproduct project.
Actually, we see a lot ofthings in common.
We see a lot of touch points,we see a lot of overlaps.

(35:09):
So last year we launched asmaller research just to
understand how big is thisoverlap and how these two
professions need to connect witheach other.
Because there is a thing that,again, like, every project
delivers something or mightdeliver something a little bit
different, but in many cases youcreate something that is

(35:30):
supposed to be operationalizedand becomes a product.
So there is a very clear touchpoint and when, a when you are
finishing your project, you needto be sure that that product is
well set for its own success.
So that's, that's one veryobvious touch point.
But then on, uh in a very um.
When we change the angle, whenwe look at the, the whole uh

(35:53):
movement of agiletransformations, we come to a
different view on productmanagement.
So that's the productmanagement that I work in when I
work in financial institutionsand helping organisation to be
more agile.
So part of our job was to formthese product teams that were
developing digitalized products,which means things or processes

(36:15):
or tools that were beforedelivered via in-person
interactions and then, thanks todigital transformation, became
fully digital, and I believethat this is the angle where
agile practices play a reallycrucial role.
And again, in one organisation,you need to be able to create
an environment where you haveprojects and these agile product

(36:38):
development teams collaborating, working together, being able
to synchronize, being able toalign themselves, because, after
all, none of these projects oragile teams exist in vacuum.
They operate in certainenvironment, they serve
customers, they operate on someinfrastructure that is below,
and it all needs to work in sync.

So so these are the topics that we would
like to explore more anddefinitely work on them with
agile alliance I like thedifferentiation um that you just
articulated, with projectleading to product versus
product, standalone and thensort of the different
organisation.
I've definitely seen both umworking in different ways as
well.
Um, Sandy, from, from yourperspective, what are your

(37:20):
thoughts on product managementand bringing that into the fray?

We've been working with product management for
quite a while in the AgileAlliance and we have an
initiative that's focused onproduct development and we're
looking into principles andpractices.
And we're looking intoprinciples and practices the
part where we haven't been sogood at so far is doing the
research that we haven't done,and that's where I have a really

(37:46):
big hope that marriage with thePMI is going to come to really
great fruition and that we cantogether figure out some
research.
And yeah, for me, for me, it'sone of the two most interesting
things happening at the moment,and one is product and project

(38:08):
under one hood, and the otherone is reimagining it,
reimagining agile, which islooking at wicked problems and
figuring out all the things thatnone of us could figure out on
their own so far.
Figuring them out together.

Project and product in the one hood is going
to be something that's no doubtgoing to cause some more angst
and concern and some excitement,and I'm sure of it, because,
again, product management is.
You know, the productmanagement community is quite
protective of product managementand they see themselves as
different to projects, andthere's a little bit of that
debate.
What do you think, Sandy?

(38:48):
What do you think people getwrong when it comes to product
management?
Like, what are the most commonmisconceptions for product
management that you think peopleget wrong?

I actually want to start with the other way around
, like because it might berecency bias, but it's the
belief that projects are alwaysnot agile.
Like I've run agile projects,I've been on agile projects and
I think projects can be eitheror, and many projects are agile.
There's a renaissance in agileproject management that I'm

(39:22):
seeing at the moment and I thinkthat's great and in terms of,
yeah, back to product.
What was the question againabout product?

What do you think people get wrong when it
comes to product management?
Either misconceptions or mythsabout product management in
general.

Yes, I might have forgotten the question because
it's 9pm here and I'm a bittired.

You're thinking about chicken?

Yes, let's stop this, because I might forget the
question again.

Product management is yeah, definitely,
um, it's becoming.
I'm seeing it.
I don't know if you're bothseeing the trend of product
management becoming talked aboutmore, uh, more familiarity,
more groups, talking about morecommunity, more positions, more
roles.
So I think marrying therelationship between product and
project um, similarly,reimagining Agile, I think, is

(40:21):
really important.
How do you perceive reimaginingAgile if we're not all on the
same page with what Agile is tobegin with?
And I know that's a trickyquestion, but I'm keen to get
your thoughts.

I think that is exactly one of the questions I
would like to work through.
I think that is exactly one ofthe questions I would like to
work through, becausereimagining agile is not a group
of people coming up with theanswers and going da-da, now
everyone, we have solved it.
This is taking a projectcommunity, a product community
and an agile community andfiguring that out together.

(40:54):
That being said and I don'tthink it's going to be that hard
to define agile- said no onesorry, what was that like?

what did?

you think, yeah, I , I wanted to.
So, uh, for full disclosure, Ialso have nine about am, because
I'm, I'm in europe, so Iprobably in a better shape, but
that's why I'm sipping this cupof coffee.
But I just wanted to go back tothat project product, a job.
And then she said, fatima, whenyou said, oh, that might also
cause this reaction, becausethese professions are protective

(41:31):
of themselves.
So at this moment, I alwayswant to say, like, can we take a
step back and maybe, like,reimagine this protectiveness?
Because when we are visitingdifferent organisation and I
just came back from some tripsfrom India and China, and we
always visit some organisationthat are at the front, front,

(41:52):
forefront, the front ofinnovation, sorry for the typo
you know innovators andorganisation that are growing,
they are successful, they havetypically thousands of project
professionals.
I'm purposefully talking slowlybecause I really want to bring
attention to that difficulty howto express so many ways of

(42:13):
working under one word, right?
So they say projectprofessionals, they have
thousands of them.
And we ask them okay, and whatare the ways of working that
they use, that they apply?
And the answer is always soquick and they say, oh,
typically 50% projectmeasurement practices, 50% agile
and no one seems to have anissue with that.

(42:34):
And then we ask them well, so,but how do you decide?
And then again the answer isvery straightforward no one's
thinking about it.
And they say well, it's veryeasy.
We work for our customers, weneed to deliver.
And then we see what do we needto deliver?
Sometimes we know up front, sothen we can go and we have the
luxury of planning.
Sometimes we do not know, sothen we start working in an

(42:55):
interactive way and weexperiment until we, until we
find the right answer.
Then we meet with people who runproject management offices.
Again we say project managementoffice, but you know very well
that it can be xmo.
It can be, you know, peoplecall it differently, but there's
some team that helps all theseprofessionals to work together

(43:17):
again, align around theseportfolios of initiatives, and
then all of that.
And again we talk aboutorganisation that are very
successful in their field andthat these organisation are
successful in innovation.
So, and that's why I said let'stake a step back, because I
think that it's not at all aboutbeing protective of my
profession and saying this isthe right way to do things and

(43:38):
you know, whatever, but it'sreally about thinking why are we
, even in these professions,what is our purpose, what is our
role in helping theseorganisation to be successful,
innovate, increase value fortheir customers?
And then you know, leaders ofthese organisation, c-suite.
They don't want theseprofessionals to fight and say I

(43:59):
don't want to work with youbecause you use different method
.
No they want them to worktogether.
And again back to that broadervision of the profession the
profession is here for a reason.
So how do we make people inthis profession more successful
so that they can deliver greatervalue for their organisation
and for society?
Because a lot of theseprofessionals work in NGOs and

(44:20):
other types of organisation, notalways for-profit organisation.

Sandy, I think you've probably got a thing or
two to say, just based on thefact that you've had that
experiences in the ways ofworking across those different
environments.
What's your thoughts acrossthose different environments?
What's?

your thoughts.
Building on that, I would evengo more radical and I think
there's a vision.
This is a field of how wecollaborate to get shit done,
and then I'm not even sure thisis a profession.
I think this is a field andwithin that field there are
people who drive outcomes, and Ithink we are shooting ourselves

(45:02):
an own goal by defining allthose roles, because it is
confusing, we're hiding behindlabels and instead of going
depending on the context and thepersons, this is a collection
of skills that people bring tothe table and they then deliver
great work and deliver goodstuff by bringing those skills

(45:24):
to the table and working inteams and where they supplement
each other.
So I think I would actually andI know this is an HR nightmare
and it's really hard to hirepeople blah, blah, blah, but I
would wish we could do away withthe roles of project manager,
product manager, agile, whatever, and just hire people as

(45:46):
collections of skills who cancontribute to a greater vision
or goal.

It's so interesting you say that because
in a number of organisationI've either worked with or seen
over the last 10 years or so,they they have this concept
called persistent teams andthey're just rolling teams that
actually generally, generallyare.
There isn't really role titlesor so to speak, it's just like
delivery resources or testingteams or development teams and
things like that.
So they've kind of done awaywith that in those organized.

(46:15):
Have you seen that as well?

Yes, and like I've seen it, especially because my
background is agile small teamsand they are cross-disciplinary,
and something I personally loveis self-selection.
To then give people notprescribing any roles within
those teams, but just going.
This is the purpose of thisteam and those are roughly the

(46:38):
goals.
And now, everyone in thisdepartment, how would you form
those teams?
Where would you put yourself tocontribute the most?
And people have enough peopleself-select into teams to
deliver something good.
So, uh, yes, I agree with youand well as usual.
I really like pushing thosethings and I think that people

(47:00):
react well to the autonomy to beallowed to do so.

So I'm going to throw one out there that I
think I know a lot of those inthe Agile community will
challenge me on and, alinka, youand I spoke about this the
concept of Agile in governanceor governance in Agile.
The concept of agile ingovernance or governance in
agile what are we so?
I guess a lot of agile teamstend to say that there's no need

(47:26):
for governance.
We're all self, not onlyself-selecting, but we're
self-governing, we can driveourselves and all these sort of
things, but in reality it's notthe case.
What's your view, Sandy, interms of what you're seeing from
a governance in an agileenvironment?
What works, what doesn't work?

I think anyone who thinks that you just have a
team of people and they sorteverything out and you don't
need governance and you don'tneed constraints, I think they
are just deluded, and in anybigger organisation, that is
going to go wrong and that'snaive and doesn't work.
So we do need some governance,and I think with governance we
do need to.

(48:03):
First of all, we need a veryclear vision so people know what
they're doing and why they'redoing something, that there's a
purpose, there are constraints,there are guardrails, and so
those are things we do, thoseare things we don't do, and
within those guardrails or thoseconstraints, people have
freedom and autonomy and don'tneed to be micromanaged.

(48:23):
Coming back to governance,there, I think, then, governance
doing it right, needs a lotless detailed data, but more
aggregated data to keep an eyeon the big picture.
And I think where, very often, Ihave seen especially PMOs go
wrong is when they don't reallyand I think this is because they

(48:46):
don't really understand thework and what people are capable
of that they focus on the tinystuff, a bit like everyone
understands $20, but nobodyunderstands $100 million.
So they focus on the tiny stuffinstead of really questioning
why do we need information.
What is the information we needand what are we using it for

(49:08):
and how else can we get it?
And I think that there has beena communications breakdown
between teams and um, pmos, um,because one site saying we need
all those things, and they'resaying, nah, uh, this is just
causing us admin and we don'thave time to work, so basically
bugger off.
And instead of fixing this andunderstanding each other's needs

(49:30):
, we have just gone far fromeach other.
And I think it is absolutelyand I've seen it and I've done
it it is absolutely possible tohave a conversation and do the
things that help both parties,and they both have justified
needs because they havedifferent jobs and roles.

And it's not that hard, as long as you keep
the dialogue going yeah, thedialogue is the most critical
aspect, even to just getalignment in how you're going to
work.
It's just agreeing and I think,as part of a lot of those sort
of agile ways of working, thethemes is around understanding
and getting alignment with thatdialogue at the beginning and at

(50:07):
the outset, which is critical.
So I can't stress that enoughas well.
Lenka, you have in yourorganisation and in your team
those that do cross over agilegovernance and what I would say
is traditional governance.
So more structured top down.
How are you balancing betweenthe two in your organisation?

Yeah.
So actually I love this topicbecause I think there's a lot of
misunderstanding andmisconception and also a bad rap
for the word governance,because when people say
governance, I think it evokesthis rigid, inflexible kind of
like a bad thing.
But I look at governancedifferently.
So governance is there to helpyou make the right decisions.

(50:50):
That's the whole purpose of it.
And even when it comes to agileteams, I believe some
governance is needed there.
S is needed for any team.
So I give you an example.
So when I worked in banking, wewere developing mobile apps.
We have agile teams for that.
We were developing mobile apps.
We have agile teams for that.
Now, these apps, you know,there are like tens and tens up

(51:11):
to hundreds of people working onsomething that makes it way to
the customer.
Now you want to ensure thatcustomer experience is properly
managed and that customerdoesn't have a different
experience if he enters a workthat was delivered by different
team of developers.
Just imagine that, right, youtake your mobile phone then like

(51:34):
, oh, this was developed byFatimah.
Oh, this was developed by Sandy.
I can see her handwriting there.
Like so, of course, not right.
So then governance, for instance, is that if you're working on
some feature, you need todiscuss it with experts on this
user experience so that you canprovide a user experience to
your customer that is unifiedacross these touch points.
That is part of the governance.
And the governance is then whomakes the decision if we make it

(51:55):
this way or that way.
Again, it's not about power.
It's about knowing what's bestfor your customer and who are
the right people to give youthat guidance.
This is all part of thegovernance.
So what I'm seeing in mypractice is that when governance
is lacking, people often runinto frustrations because they
try to make these rightdecisions but sometimes do not

(52:16):
work with the right teams orsomething.
Then it leads to reworkfrustration, you know.
So I fully agree that peopleshould be empowered, but what
I'm always trying to bringattention is that this
empowerment, the freedom that wegive people to empower them, it
has to go hand in hand withsupporting their maturity to be

(52:40):
able to handle that freedomright.
And that's not always astraight path.
Sometimes, you know, we give alittle bit more freedom and then
people are still stuck a littlebit because they lack some
information, some experience,something.
So we need to support that bylearning, by mentoring, by
coaching and then again like,help them for greater

(53:00):
empowerment.
It's essentially a management,a people management job to
achieve that empowerment.
But governance is part of it.
But governance it's not a badthing if done properly.

Yeah, 100%.
I like to say it's not whenyou're thinking about agile and
governance in an agileenvironment.
It's not about the what,because at the end of the day,
you still need data, you needreporting, you need decisions,
you need risks.
That doesn't change.
It's the how, and I thinkgetting understanding on that
how and alignment at thebeginning of any initiative is

(53:33):
important.
So I'm glad.
I'm glad we're aligned on onthe thinking around governance
and agile.
I think that's a really big onethat comes up and seems to be
consistently debated andchallenged.
So hopefully people listeningcan take some guidance from this
conversation today.
We are normal almost out oftime, ladies.
I can't believe it's almostbeen an hour.
It goes way too fast,unfortunately.

(53:54):
As we wrap up today, first ofall I just want to say thank you
to you both because I thinkcoming together and having this
conversation and going throughsome of these questions were
community questions that hadbeen flagged to me so I had the
chance to ask some of them forthose people.
But as we wrap up, is thereanything else that you'd like to
share with our listeners, acall to action, a piece of

(54:15):
advice or a question to pondertoday?
I might start with you, Sandy.

I would love to say to people that we all learn
and we are most productive andwe have the most fun if we just
stay open and we stay curiousand we try everything and
explore as much as we possiblycan and don't take ourselves too
seriously, and that's my adviceto everybody, including myself

(54:47):
said it like an expert, Lenka.

Sunny, I love the way you are so nicely like
people-oriented.
I feel myself like okay, whatis the result?

So what I Good balance Ladies.
This is amazing, it's exactlywhat we want.

What I would say is this I definitely enjoy all
of these debates and for me,it's always very important to
bring people back to thatthinking like look at the
broader vision, like, why are wedoing this?
We want to make projects,everything that encompasses that
.
We want to make them moresuccessful because if we do that
, then we can create more valuefor people out there, for

(55:28):
societies, everything thatencompasses that.
We want to make them moresuccessful because if we do that
, then we can create more valuefor people out there, for
societies, for organisation, allof it.
And I would say, like again,focus on the dish, not on the
single ingredient.
These ingredients, they arethere.

They are part of the dish, but let's focus on
that broader vision and what awonderfully rewarding career it
is to be involved in agile, inprojects, in products, and just
being part of that I think is issuch an opportunity and, um,
yeah, I think the, the, thecareer that you both have had,
is commendable.
Um, it's exciting to see thispartnership, um sort of evolving
.
There was some really good umdebate about what it's going to

(56:05):
look like.
I think you've answered a lotof the questions that people are
probably answering and, um, Iwelcome, um, yeah, welcome the.
The what's next for?
For the, both of you and andthe two organisation.
So thank you both for your timetoday thank you for having us.

And uh, what's next for me is definitely go to
the kitchen make a chicken dishchicken and cherry tomatoes.

I'm right, right there with you.
8 pm sounds good.
Thank you, ladies, have a goodday.
Thank you, bye, bye.
Thank you so much for listeningto this podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
date with all things Agile Ideas, go to our website,
wwwagilemanagementoffice.
com.

(56:51):
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel or be inspired today
.
Until next time, what's yourAgile Idea?

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#160 | Beyond Labels: Reimagining How We Get Things Done with Lenka Pincot & Sandy Mamoli

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#160 | Beyond Labels: Reimagining How We Get Things Done with Lenka Pincot & Sandy Mamoli