July 3, 2025 • 36 mins
What if saying “yes” to an unpaid role could open doors your day job never could?
In this insightful episode, Yasmina Khelifi—telecom engineer, project manager, and author—shares how volunteering became a game-changer in her career. From public speaking at global conferences to co-authoring a book with someone she hadn’t met in person, Yasmina discovered that volunteering offered unexpected professional growth, leadership opportunities, and creative challenges her corporate role didn’t.
We explore:
- How volunteering helps you experiment with new skills in a low-risk environment
- The evolution of project work in a fast-paced, virtual world
- Yasmina’s “My Volunteering Canvas” for finding roles aligned with your passions and goals
- Why volunteering isn’t just a career move—it’s a mindset shift
- Common myths about volunteering (and how to overcome them)
Whether you're navigating a career pivot, looking to grow your leadership capabilities, or simply want to expand your network, this episode is full of practical ideas to help you turn purpose-driven work into long-term career value.
Connect with Yasmina or Mayte on LinkedIn or visit yasminakhelifi.com to learn more about her books The Volunteering Journey to Project Leadership and How To Become a Culturally-Aware Project Manager and her work with global project communities.
Yasmina's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yasminakhelifi-pmp-telecom/
Mayte's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mayte-mata-sivera-pmp/
In this episode, I cover:
3:04 Yasmina’s Journey in Project Management
5:57 Evolution of PM Over 20 Years
10:37 Creating a Book on Volunteering
17:14 Volunteer as Career Development
22:54 My Volunteering Canvas Framework
31:31 Writing Process and Book Impact
And more…
Have you built a PMO from the ground up—
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fatimah Abbouchi (00:00):
You're listening to Agile Ideas, the
podcast hosted by FatimahAbbouchi.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm CEO, at AMO, mental HealthAmbassador and your host.
(00:22):
On today's episode we haveYasmina Khelifi, a French
telecom engineer and projectmanager with over 20 years of
experience in the telecomindustry.
Yasmina holds three PMIcertifications and is a
passionate volunteer and thoughtleader in this project
management space.
She's a regular blogger onprojectmanagement.
(00:42):
com, a correspondent for PMWorld Journal and has
contributed to Harvard BusinessReview Early Career.
She also speaks in webinars andconferences, including the PMO
Global Summit.
Yasmina is also the author ofhow to Become a Culturally Aware
Project Manager and also theco-author of the Volunteering
Journey to Project projectleadership, written by herself
(01:04):
and my team, mata sivera.
She speaks six languages andyou can connect with her on her
website at yasmina khalifi.
com.
Please join me in welcomingYasmina.
Yasmina Khelifi (01:18):
Yasmina, welcome to the show fatima, it's
a pleasure to be here.
Fatimah Abbouchi (01:23):
Thank, Thank you.
Thank you for joining and beingso flexible.
I wanted to start by asking youabout the six languages you
speak.
Tell me which languages that is.
That's phenomenal.
Yasmina Khelifi (01:37):
Well, thank you for asking, Fatimah.
It's not the same level in alllanguages, in fact, if I am
honest.
So I began to learn German atschool, then English and then
Spanish.
So German, English, Spanish isquite, I have to say, fluent
levels, and I can speak Italianintermediate and Japanese
(02:01):
intermediate.
Wow, and I am learning Arabic,which is very, very hard, oh,
absolutely.
Fatimah Abbouchi (02:07):
So it's a good challenge.
That's incredible, even to be abeginner in two languages.
I speak two and a halflanguages, but to speak that
many well done, that's, yeah,incredible.
So we're not here to talk aboutthat, but I just wanted to get
that out there because I'm veryimpressed by that.
So you and I came into, cameinto knowing each other through
(02:30):
the PMO leader community, whichyou're very, you know a big, a
big supporter of and and havedone a lot of great things in
that community.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour background.
Tell us what.
You've been in this projectspace for 20 years and you're a
telecom engineer.
Tell us about your career.
Where did it start and how yougot to where you are today.
Yasmina Khelifi (02:51):
That's a great question.
So I began as a telecomengineer in a big
telecommunication firm and afterthe natural path was to become
a project manager.
So I became a project managerby accident, because a manager
proposed to me to say do youwant to become a project manager
(03:13):
?
I hesitated and after I saidyes, why not?
And that's how it began, likeperhaps many of your listeners
and people who are watching thisvideo.
And after I moved on differentprojects, always in
international environment, whichI love very much, and based on
(03:34):
that.
That's how it evolved and I'mstill working in the same
company for more than 20 years.
Fatimah Abbouchi (03:40):
Wow, that's very impressive to have that
loyalty and commitment to thatone organization.
That's great.
What have you seen change overthe years in project management,
through all your experienceworking not only in the company
you're in, but just through yourpassing of colleagues and
trends?
And what have you seen ineither project or PMO space over
(04:02):
the last 20 years?
Yasmina Khelifi (04:05):
Well, the pace of projects?
I think it is more and more.
It's quicker and quicker, sorry.
And there are also a lot ofturnover of people.
I notice in the teams.
You know people that work withdifferent stakeholders.
Someone comes and after a fewmonths leaves, so you have to
build again the relationship,the trust with that person.
(04:29):
And of course it is a lot ofvirtual projects.
But I have to say I have beenworking in international
environments and from thebeginning I worked a lot
virtually, but now it is moreintense.
So that is what has changed.
And of course there isartificial intelligence that is
now coming.
We don't use it yet a lot inthe projects because of
(04:54):
different things linked tosecurity, confidentiality, but
it's beginning.
In the company it begins to bemore important.
Fatimah Abbouchi (05:03):
I think you're right.
I think there's going to besome significant wave, like the
agile wave that we've all passed.
I'm really keen to jump intowhat is core to our conversation
today, and that is aroundvolunteering.
So I want you to take us backto where the idea came from, you
and your colleague Maiti.
(05:24):
Did I pronounce that correctlyy?
Yes, I think so.
Oh, so you and you and mateydecided that you were going to
write a book about volunteering.
So tell me about how theconcept of volunteering and the
book came about, because I don'tthink we talk enough about the
importance of volunteering and Ithink that what you both have
(05:46):
achieved in this space inwriting the book, is going to
help a lot of people.
So tell me through whatinspired you to write the book
and what it's about, and why whyvolunteering is so important.
Yasmina Khelifi (05:57):
Yes, thank you, Fatimah, and you are also
passionate volunteer and thankyou for being part of the book
as a great testimony.
So I love this question becausefor me it's a bit incredible.
I met Mayte through a projectmanagement community in 2021.
And then I wanted Mayte to bein my podcast.
(06:20):
So she was a guest in mypodcast because I love her way
of being, her passion, herinternational background, and we
talked together and we made awebinar about volunteering and
there were a lot of questionsand then, based on that, we met
after a second webinar inSpanish and, based on that, we
(06:41):
said why not writing a book?
Because both of us Mayte and Icome from countries where
volunteering is not so important.
Probably in Australia, in theUnited States, in the United
Kingdom, volunteering is part ofthe curriculum at university.
(07:01):
In our case Mayte from Spain,me from France it is not part of
the background, of the academicbackground at our times.
Perhaps it has changed now.
We thought we need to share ourknowledge and how much we have
learned through volunteering.
It was a big discovery for usand also a big joy, in fact, to
(07:25):
volunteer and to meet new people, because all began through a
community of project managementwith volunteers, you know.
So it's how it began.
And for me, I think it's reallyincredible because for both of
us and all people in the projectmanagement communities, it is
obvious to make collaborations,you know, to build projects, to
(07:45):
deliver together.
But when I talk to mycolleagues and many people, they
are very surprised.
They said writing a book withsomeone you have never met,
because I never met face-to-faceMayte.
When I told you in 2021, 2022,and we had the book contract in
January 2023.
And I didn't meet her untilNovember, it was October 2023 in
(08:09):
Atlanta in a project managementsummit.
So you know, it's how it allbegan.
Fatimah Abbouchi (08:15):
And so you said that you got the idea
because of lots of questionscoming through for the webinars.
What were the most commonquestions that was being asked
about volunteering?
Yasmina Khelifi (08:27):
Well, I think people wanted to know how to
begin with.
Also, they were surprised ofall you can learn for
volunteering, because we talkedabout leadership skills,
networking and alsoexperimenting with new things
and people.
They said, oh, we did not knowand also that was surprising for
(08:48):
us.
Some people were alsoastonished that it could be done
virtually and I know it's abuse, but that's correct that many
years ago, when you talked aboutvolunteering, many things
happened on site, in fact,through events, and that's very
important to have events, ofcourse.
But, for example, for me it wasalso a discovery because I was
(09:11):
never interested in volunteering, never Fatimah.
If you had told me reallyvolunteer, I thought I would
have thought why?
Volunteering Fatimah, it's alot of work and, of course, I
have to go on site to meetpeople and I live outside of
Paris and many things happen inParis and for me it was
impossible in the evening.
Many things happen in theevening also, etc.
(09:33):
So and also discovered I coulddeliver projects, meet people,
collaborate online and reallyhaving fun.
So I think that was also adiscovery for people and that's
why and the last question wasalso where to find volunteer
opportunities.
That was the main questions.
Fatimah Abbouchi (09:56):
It's interesting because you're right
.
I, like yourself, havevolunteered many, many years as
long as I can remember.
I think that volunteeringprovides such an incredible
learning opportunity.
I usually say to people whenthey are particularly in our
industry of project management,they're looking for
(10:16):
opportunities to get jobs andthen, during that process, as
part of them trying to find work, they're looking for
opportunities to get jobs andthen, during that process, as
part of them trying to find work, they may not be able to find
it as quickly.
So I say, go and volunteer, getwork experience in the company
that you want to work at whichis what I did when I started my
career 20 years ago and thenthat possibly leads to
(10:38):
opportunities in those companies.
So I think it's a great way,and I honestly didn't.
When you and I'm looking for mybook, it's looking.
So, yeah, when I, when I heardthat you both were writing this
book, I think I wasn't sure whatyou were going to include
because I wasn't sure how muchtopics and how many questions
you can cover.
(10:58):
But if I have a look through,some of the things that really
stood out for me is likeidentifying volunteering goals
that align to your career goals.
That was one of the ones thatreally stood out for me, because
I think that volunteering youcan volunteer almost in any
industry, in any capacity remote, in person, etc.
(11:19):
But it would make sense toalign volunteering to a cause or
maybe a role that you'relooking for.
Did you find through theresearch, speaking to people,
that most of the volunteeringstarted in a place that they
were passionate about?
Yasmina Khelifi (11:37):
Yes, of course, volunteering starts with
passion.
I'd like to get to somethingalso very important.
You said, fatima, aboutvolunteering when you do not
have work.
It's also a way to network,because when you volunteer in
project management communities,you may work with Julia and, I
(11:57):
don't know, perhaps youcollaborate very well with her
and Julia will say yes, you know, we are looking for a new
project manager in the companyand it's how it happened in fact
for some people, and I thinkit's a way also to find a job
and, as you said, we can alsovolunteer in companies to help.
(12:19):
So, in terms of volunteeringgoals, I also want to say that
when we say that with Mayte, itdoesn't mean you have to
volunteer to find a job, youhave to volunteer to align with
your career goals.
That is not what we meant,because some people will say,
okay, it's going to be verytransactional this kind of
volunteering.
(12:39):
So people are not not at all.
For me, we can do both, in fact, to, of course, to have fun and
also to try to learn new skillsor to improve your skills by
volunteering.
So that is what we we want tosay, and carrier goals, in fact
fact for different people wetalked about.
(13:00):
I think sometimes we are notaware of doing it.
Sometimes it's by instinct.
We think, okay, let's do it.
That's why we wanted, also withmy team, to formalize this kind
of things to try to help peopleget clarity.
Why?
Because I noticed, as I toldyou, not like you, I am a new
(13:23):
volunteer, you know, for since2018, exactly only, and when I
began, I did not know what tolook for or what to do.
I was really completely lost.
And when you began to volunteer, also, you got new
opportunities.
People come to you oh, can youhelp with this, can you help
with this?
And I said, yes, why not, whynot, why not?
And at the end, at that point,it was too much.
Fatimah Abbouchi (13:47):
There were some activities I didn't really
enjoy, and that's why we try, byformalizing a bit career goals,
to try to find some, to helphaving some priorities and also
to be able also to choose thevolunteer roles to really enjoy
them I think that's reallyimportant and I know you talk
(14:09):
like through a lot of casestudies and I know that, , it's
a really good example actually,where the reason we came to
know each other is because youvolunteered at the PMO Leader
and the only reason I ended upagreeing to be in the book is
because I knew you because youvolunteered in the PMO Leader.
So it's just a good example ofhow much of a small world it is.
(14:29):
I want to touch on somethingthat you mentioned.
So one of the things we talkedabout you said leadership and
networking of very important,but I think the experimentation
side of volunteering sometimesyou'll do things like you just
described that you don't enjoyand that's fine, but how will
you know if you don't try?
So I find like one of the thingsthat I recommended to people
(14:53):
when they ask about how they getproject management experience,
I say go and and find anopportunity, either in the
company that you're working in,put your hand up.
I remember, for example, I putmy hand up to be the chief fire
warden of our building.
So when the fire alarms got off, I was coordinating all those
people and then other instanceswhere I'm volunteering to you
(15:15):
know, assist one of the staffmembers in the warehouse with
packing goods or whatever itmight be, just to get experience
.
And then you use thatexperience on your resume and
then that resume continues tobuild up and then that's how you
get more opportunities.
What's been your bestvolunteering experience?
Yasmina Khelifi (15:35):
I fully agree with what you said.
For me, really, the discoveryanother one was experimenting
with new things.
Fatimah, I always give thisexample because, once more, it
is incredible.
I began to volunteer in asocial media team at PMI United
Arab Emirates chapter and Ivolunteered to create visuals.
(15:58):
And I volunteer to createvisuals and if you know me, I'm
not an artist.
You know I cannot draw at all.
In fact, at school I was verybad, really very bad at it and I
said why not?
It seems to be interesting, asyou said, why not trying?
And I really enjoyed it and Iimproved myself, I gained
(16:19):
confidence and, for example,last week at work, we at work,
in my workplace, we had aproject management day and we
had to make a big visual, infact, you know, at the entrance
of the building, and I designedit.
In fact, of course, I'm notdesigning a lot, I'm using a
(16:39):
software, you know, a bigsoftware very well known, but
still I was very proud of myself.
So, volunteering, for me, it isa way to experiment with new
things and the advantage is, ofcourse, it doesn't mean you try
one week and you say no, notinteresting, I go.
It's another risk alsoSometimes when you are in your
(16:59):
volunteering space, you have tocommit also because if you say
yes one week, I'm sorry, nointerest, I have to leave now.
For me, you know, the issue isyou work in teams and if you do
not commit then other members ofthe team are going to be
overloaded.
It can happen, of course.
A lot of things can happen inlife.
I don't say you have to commitabsolutely with your blood to do
(17:21):
it, that's not it.
But it's a way, when youvolunteer, to have the
opportunity to try things youdon't have the opportunity to
try at work.
You know, at work, if I said,ok, I'd like to design as a
communication team, ok, I'mhappy, I'd like to design the
display, your next visual theyare going to laugh because it's
not a part of my expertise.
There are people who areexperts in that field.
(17:43):
Yes, also, as you said, talkingand other things I did for
volunteering and I dared to dowas talking in webinars.
Talking in webinars, talking atevents, it's something at work.
We have not a lot ofopportunities to do this kind of
things.
Webinars we have more thanbefore, but talking at big
(18:04):
events not really, because it'sreally.
I'm not a top manager and threetop managers who speak there.
So this is a kind of experience, experiences you can get and,
as you said, it's something youcan add up to your resume and
also for your personalconfidence, because, as a
project leader, we are supposedto communicate well, we are
(18:26):
supposed to present.
You know public speaking.
When you say that, people willsay, no, public speaking is not
really my business.
I'm a technical project manager, but at a certain point you
have to present in front of aboard, yeah, and you have also
to present well.
So there are a lot of skillslike this that, from my point of
view, have learned throughvolunteering.
Fatimah Abbouchi (18:48):
It's really important one thing to call out
that relates to when peoplevolunteer.
It's, of course they're givingup their time and their energy
and all of that.
But one thing I want everyonelistening to know is just
because you're a volunteer, itdoesn't mean you cut corners.
It means that you, you do whatyou're going to say.
You say what you're going to do, do what you're going to say,
(19:10):
because your reputation is stillon the line.
So I think it's just reallyimportant for those that are
listening that maybe areinterested in volunteering, like
you.
You said, don't just give upafter a week.
If you commit to do something,give it your time and attention
and energy, because just becauseyou're not getting paid for it,
if you're committing to a teamor a company or a cause, you
(19:31):
have to put the time and energyand dedication into it, because
otherwise it's still yourreputation on the line.
So I think that's important tocall out because I think people
can be, you know, dipping theirtoes in a little bit and really
not committing.
But I wanted to touch onsomething very important.
You just said the skills thatyou learn, the confidence that
you build.
You're absolutely right.
I agree with that 100%.
(19:53):
I wanted to be a better speakerso I volunteered with our
biggest mental healthnot-for-profit, beyond Blue,
here in Australia, very wellrecognised, and so I volunteered
to speak with them and overtime I think 50, 60, 70 events
later I got better than when Istarted and so, very similar to
(20:15):
you like getting the confidence.
I think, with this new era ofways of working and the
environment and the AI and thetech and the soft skills that
project managers need to have isnot replaceable by AI, so
that's where we should focus.
Yeah, I agree with you,completely, completely agree.
Yasmina Khelifi (20:35):
I agree, and also something you said very
important, Fatimah, is how wecan learn as project
professionals.
You know, in the past I'm anengineer, so you know it was a
lot of theory, a lot of books,and I learned.
At the time we didn't have alot of Internet, you know,
mobile devices etc.
And so the knowledge came fromthe professors.
(20:59):
And what I also discoveredthrough volunteering is how I
can learn by practicing, bytrying, by making mistakes and
by being encouraged by the team,because when I said I design
visuals, I was not alone to doit.
I got very good feedback fromthe team, I got encouragement,
(21:23):
and it's also changed my way onhow we can learn nowadays, and I
think we can learn throughpracticing, through communities
and by talking with people, bylistening to your podcast.
There are a lot of ways oflearning.
It's not only books.
Fatimah Abbouchi (21:49):
There are a lot of ways of learning.
It's not only books, still veryimportant Academics,
universities very important, butwe need to be very open to
different ways of talking aboutit.
I agree, I think a lot oftraining and educational things
out there that are based ontheory need to also say even
with our university partnership.
So we've got an intern fromDenmark starting soon, so she's
(22:10):
going to be coming to Australiaand working with us because
she's learned all the theory ofproject management, but now it's
the time for her to actuallyput it into practice.
So she can do that through aninternship, which is equivalent
to, you know, like somevolunteering, and so doing that
means she's going to learn thoseskills which are essential for
her future career.
Without that, she'll probablyget there, but it will just take
(22:31):
longer.
So I think that that's reallyimportant for people to, you
know, to really emphasize onlearning, for people to really
emphasize on learning.
I wanted to ask about your.
You have a my VolunteeringCanvas.
What is it?
Yasmina Khelifi (22:47):
And how can listeners use it in their own
journey?
Yes, exactly, maite and Idesigned a framework, my
volunteering canvas.
The aim of this framework is tohelp volunteers to find their
opportunities they want to be.
It's also a kind of.
We recommend to use it onecanvas by role, so that you can
(23:10):
design.
You can also from the beginning.
At the beginning, when you lookfor a volunteer role, you have
to know your values, to be clearon your values, your passion,
your purpose, and also to beclear what skills you want to
learn, how do you want tonetwork and if you want to
experiment with new things.
And we have also some questionsaround the criteria for the
volunteer role.
And it gets back to what wesaid when you volunteer.
(23:33):
I think it's when we saidcommitment.
It's also good to be honestfrom the start.
I think from the criteria, Ican say to you Fatimah, you know
, Fatimah, I'd like to volunteerin your organization, but I
will have six months.
After six months I will not beavailable anymore.
So for me it's fine to say thatbecause at least you can
propose and you can propose me,give me a volunteer role that
(23:58):
fits with that commitment, andthen we agree together.
Is the role also hybrid, faceto face or only virtual.
It's something you have to beclear from the beginning.
So this kind of canvas, youhave some questions and the
volunteers can answer and getclarity.
And when you are in yourvolunteer journey, we encourage
(24:20):
people feeling also taking thevolunteering, my volunteering
canvas regularly and also checkwhat they learned, kind of
learnings.
We have a last part learnings,and I think it's important to
capitalize and to think because,as we said, the world is very
quick.
We are learning a lot of thingswithout being aware of it and we
(24:42):
need it's hard to say it, butwe need to take some minutes
during the week to say what didI learn this week at work and in
all the other activities I amdoing outside of work and in all
the other activities I am doingoutside of work.
And it is also a way tocapitalize on the different
things because you know it comesalso from personal experiences.
(25:03):
I am not very good atinterviews and I remember a few
years ago when I wanted tochange positions, I presented
how I presented myself.
The interviewer, the guy, let'scall it Mike asked me so what
did you do in that project?
Well, I did small things.
I coordinated the testers, thedevelopment software teams.
(25:26):
Really, I didn't prepare wellthe interviews because I didn't
capitalize on all the stories,all the learnings I had.
Of course you can say justprepare properly your interviews
, but I think, doing it everyweek it is also a way to
remember what you learned andafter, at a certain point, you
have so many stories to shareand tell for your next role,
(25:49):
your next job.
Fatimah Abbouchi (25:51):
I think it's true because, if you think about
it, a lot of these people,without having something to
guide them, they're probablygoing to bounce around.
I mean, it's good to try lotsof different things, but if you
have a goal that you're tryingto achieve, whether it's a
business or your career, it'sgood to work towards that and
get experience.
Like, really, one of thebiggest gaps for a lot of people
(26:13):
is when they want to get into acertain industry.
And so, for example, I knowsomeone who wants to get into
the energy industry, theenvironmental energy industry.
She doesn't have the experienceand they're probably not going
to hire her, even though she'sgot a great product background.
But what she can do is do somevolunteering and over time she
will build up knowledge andskills that become invaluable
(26:36):
for her when she goes andapplies for a job.
So I think I think that makessense.
I think also, the other thing isknowledge, skills and
connections.
So I think if you're notgetting knowledge, you're not
getting skills or you're notgetting connections in your
volunteering role, it's time tomove on.
Would you agree with that?
Yasmina Khelifi (26:53):
Yes, I agree, after Fatimah, it's always what
I say.
It's up to people.
There are some people theyvolunteer for more than 20, 30
years and perhaps they are notreally interested in expanding
their network because theyvolunteer always with the same
people.
They enjoy volunteering alwayswith the same people and I think
it's great.
It's their freedom to do it.
(27:13):
What I want also to say tovolunteers we also, with Mayte,
wrote it in the book we saidit's also good sometimes to
intentionally say I want tovolunteer with people I don't
know at all, because it's alwaysvery comfortable.
If I volunteer with Mayte, I amso happy to volunteer with her,
to volunteer with you, fatima.
But it's good also to say let'stry to volunteer to be part of
(27:37):
a new project with people I donot know, because it's a way to
confronting new situations andto work with diverse people.
In fact, because sometimes, forinstance for me at work, I'm
very comfortable because I workwith the same people for a long
time In fact.
And also I think volunteeringalso brings me the opportunity
to meet quickly new people andmost of the time I never meet
(28:00):
them face to face so quickly.
You have to do something withsomeone you don't really know
very well, you don't really meet, but still you have to deliver
and because of thiscollaboration, the trust you are
building, at the end you aregoing to deliver a great project
.
So it really depends.
The volunteering canvas myvolunteering canvas, as you said
(28:23):
, is a way to get clarity onwhere you want to go and it was
also a way for me, for example,to know exactly when I have to
say no to a volunteeropportunity.
Because, as I said, in thevolunteering space there are not
a lot of people and sometimesyou do it well and people come
(28:44):
to you.
This is a passion.
Can you help?
Can you help?
And I said yes, yes, yes, yes.
And as I told you at thebeginning, there are some
volunteer roles I was not reallyinterested in.
But I said, why not doing it?
Oh, I have to say also becauseit was a big title.
You know, it was like a projectmanager of a conference.
Why not, why not?
But after I didn't really enjoyit because of the organization
(29:06):
it was done, because also somevolunteers to work with, et
cetera.
And also it's a thing when youvolunteer, you do not volunteer
for the big title.
You can do it, but you have tobe passionate about it also
Because, as we said, it's a lotof work and a lot of time and
people.
They are waiting for theresults at the end.
Fatimah Abbouchi (29:27):
Yeah, 100%, you're right.
I mean it's okay sometimes ifyou pick a volunteering job
because of the title.
The volunteering is somethingthat people do because obviously
they have the title.
Or you know the volunteering issomething that people do
because obviously they have thedesire or the passion or the
time and so they've got to getsome benefit from doing it.
You know you're doing it for agood cause usually, but you do
(29:49):
get the benefit of the knowledge, the skills, the reputation,
the connections, you know thosethings.
So I think it's okay forvolunteers to you know, receive
some benefit.
Otherwise, you know, no onewould volunteer really if there
wasn't some sort of that, evenif the benefit is more friends
or you know connections or anyof those things.
So I think that's all reallypositive.
What's been the feedback you'vegotten since you wrote the book
(30:13):
?
Because, as I said, I hadn'tcome across something that talks
about this subject in this muchdetail and it's really well
written and you have lots ofcase studies now and a lot of
people have contributed, myselfincluded, who have contributed
to you, support your chapter.
So what's the biggest feedbackyou've been getting from the
book?
Yasmina Khelifi (30:31):
Well, usually people are very happy, surprised
by the topic, how it was, andthank you very much for your
great feedback about the writing.
It was a lot of work.
It's also something I wasn'taware.
We were not aware with Maytethat writing a book is a real
project and, as always, you haveto know what quality you want
to reach.
And in our side you know wework also very much in an agile
(30:56):
way Because the way we did it,we first did the table of
contents and we shared withdifferent colleagues and friends
to get their feedback.
After we decided we divided thedifferent chapters.
And what is important and why Ilove working collaborating with
Mayte is we both have a highcritical mind, and this one
(31:17):
probably.
I have to say it's culturalalso, in fact, French and
Spanish.
We have a lot of negativefeedback, but in that case it's
very good because I wrotesomething and Mayte asked a lot
of questions that I do not agreeand I did the same also with
her.
And after we have the bookchapters read by beta readers we
call it beta readers, it meanspeople who get feedback, et
(31:38):
cetera and after we had also anexcellent copy editor helping in
reviewing.
So it depends on the qualityyou want to have and you're
right, we try to have diverse,really diverse people in terms
of interviews thought leaders,like you and, because it was not
so easy, and from differentorganizations project
organizations also around theworld.
(31:59):
So it was a lot of work and wealso made surveys surveys to
board members, surveys tovolunteers, surveys to human
resource managers to get realdata and to have the book backed
on research.
So it was really a lot of work.
You know, when I heard peoplesaying I've written a book, now
(32:20):
I know how much time anddedication and passion it needs
to be written.
Fatimah Abbouchi (32:26):
Well, thank you for writing it because, as I
said, I think it's a really,really interesting book.
The content of it is verypractical.
So I think people who maybe,maybe those that haven't
volunteered or those that, likeus, volunteer and probably could
brush up on some of theseinsights, I think, can really
benefit from learning about it.
(32:47):
As I said, I thought it was aninteresting concept, which is
why I wanted us to meet and havea chat today.
I think you guys have done awonderful job in getting it to
where it is.
There's so much work that goesinto this and people, I think,
underestimate it, and you'reright, it's a true project.
So you've now got a project,another project on your record
of projects to add to because ofthe work that's gone in there.
(33:10):
So thank you for doing that.
We're nearly at the end of ourtime today.
My last question for you ourclosing tradition is to ask if
there is anything else thatyou'd like to share with our
listeners, a call to action, apiece of advice or a question to
ponder before we wrap up todayby volunteering, by helping.
Yasmina Khelifi (33:28):
I think it's a wonderful place.
You can meet really interestingpeople around the world and you
can learn a lot.
Learn a lot about yourself andyou can become a better project
leader.
Fatimah Abbouchi (33:47):
And where would be the best place for
people to find volunteeropportunities.
What was the best?
One or two places do yourecommend?
Yasmina Khelifi (33:58):
For me there is a PMO leader, so it's a really
a great community.
There is also a conference tocome every year.
There is an annual conferenceand you can help be part of the
core team, also be a volunteerto be a speaker there, and there
are there are a lot of projectmanagement organizations,
project management institutes.
There is also IPMA anddepending on the countries it
(34:20):
can be strong or not.
So I'm sure near you you have avolunteer community project
management community you canvolunteer in.
Fatimah Abbouchi (34:29):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The PMO Leader is the pmoleader.
com for anyone listening.
We do have a conference comingup, actually very soon you're
right in October and thevolunteer and speaking
opportunities are open.
So thank you for sharing that.
And I think PMI is probably areally good place because they
are the biggest projectmanagement organisation and so
they have chapters in so manycountries and they are run by
(34:50):
volunteers, so PMI's websitewould be another good place as
well, so I think that's reallygood advice.
Well, Yasmina, thank you somuch for your time today.
I look forward to peopleaccessing your book.
I'll make sure they connectwith you.
Where's the best place to findyou?
Is it LinkedIn or website?
Yasmina Khelifi (35:10):
It's LinkedIn and also Mayte is very active on
LinkedIn.
So for both of us, you canconnect with us on LinkedIn and
we have also a website for thebook and my website, but
LinkedIn is a primary source ofcontact for me.
Fatimah Abbouchi (35:22):
Okay, amazing.
Well, thank you, it's been apleasure.
Have a good day.
Yasmina Khelifi (35:27):
Thank you so much, Fatimah.
It was a pleasure to talk withyou.
Fatimah Abbouchi (35:31):
Thank you so much for listening to this
podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
date with all things Agile Ideas, go to our website, www.
(35:52):
agilemanagementoffice.
com.
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel or be inspired today
.
Until next time, what's yourAgile Idea?
You're listening to Agile Ideas, the
podcast hosted by FatimahAbbouchi.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm CEO, at AMO, mental HealthAmbassador and your host.
(00:22):
On today's episode we haveYasmina Khelifi, a French
telecom engineer and projectmanager with over 20 years of
experience in the telecomindustry.
Yasmina holds three PMIcertifications and is a
passionate volunteer and thoughtleader in this project
management space.
She's a regular blogger onprojectmanagement.
(00:42):
com, a correspondent for PMWorld Journal and has
contributed to Harvard BusinessReview Early Career.
She also speaks in webinars andconferences, including the PMO
Global Summit.
Yasmina is also the author ofhow to Become a Culturally Aware
Project Manager and also theco-author of the Volunteering
Journey to Project projectleadership, written by herself
(01:04):
and my team, mata sivera.
She speaks six languages andyou can connect with her on her
website at yasmina khalifi.
com.
Please join me in welcomingYasmina.
Yasmina Khelifi (01:18):
Yasmina, welcome to the show fatima, it's
a pleasure to be here.
Fatimah Abbouchi (01:23):
Thank, Thank you.
Thank you for joining and beingso flexible.
I wanted to start by asking youabout the six languages you
speak.
Tell me which languages that is.
That's phenomenal.
Yasmina Khelifi (01:37):
Well, thank you for asking, Fatimah.
It's not the same level in alllanguages, in fact, if I am
honest.
So I began to learn German atschool, then English and then
Spanish.
So German, English, Spanish isquite, I have to say, fluent
levels, and I can speak Italianintermediate and Japanese
(02:01):
intermediate.
Wow, and I am learning Arabic,which is very, very hard, oh,
absolutely.
Fatimah Abbouchi (02:07):
So it's a good challenge.
That's incredible, even to be abeginner in two languages.
I speak two and a halflanguages, but to speak that
many well done, that's, yeah,incredible.
So we're not here to talk aboutthat, but I just wanted to get
that out there because I'm veryimpressed by that.
So you and I came into, cameinto knowing each other through
(02:30):
the PMO leader community, whichyou're very, you know a big, a
big supporter of and and havedone a lot of great things in
that community.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour background.
Tell us what.
You've been in this projectspace for 20 years and you're a
telecom engineer.
Tell us about your career.
Where did it start and how yougot to where you are today.
Yasmina Khelifi (02:51):
That's a great question.
So I began as a telecomengineer in a big
telecommunication firm and afterthe natural path was to become
a project manager.
So I became a project managerby accident, because a manager
proposed to me to say do youwant to become a project manager
(03:13):
?
I hesitated and after I saidyes, why not?
And that's how it began, likeperhaps many of your listeners
and people who are watching thisvideo.
And after I moved on differentprojects, always in
international environment, whichI love very much, and based on
(03:34):
that.
That's how it evolved and I'mstill working in the same
company for more than 20 years.
Fatimah Abbouchi (03:40):
Wow, that's very impressive to have that
loyalty and commitment to thatone organization.
That's great.
What have you seen change overthe years in project management,
through all your experienceworking not only in the company
you're in, but just through yourpassing of colleagues and
trends?
And what have you seen ineither project or PMO space over
(04:02):
the last 20 years?
Yasmina Khelifi (04:05):
Well, the pace of projects?
I think it is more and more.
It's quicker and quicker, sorry.
And there are also a lot ofturnover of people.
I notice in the teams.
You know people that work withdifferent stakeholders.
Someone comes and after a fewmonths leaves, so you have to
build again the relationship,the trust with that person.
(04:29):
And of course it is a lot ofvirtual projects.
But I have to say I have beenworking in international
environments and from thebeginning I worked a lot
virtually, but now it is moreintense.
So that is what has changed.
And of course there isartificial intelligence that is
now coming.
We don't use it yet a lot inthe projects because of
(04:54):
different things linked tosecurity, confidentiality, but
it's beginning.
In the company it begins to bemore important.
Fatimah Abbouchi (05:03):
I think you're right.
I think there's going to besome significant wave, like the
agile wave that we've all passed.
I'm really keen to jump intowhat is core to our conversation
today, and that is aroundvolunteering.
So I want you to take us backto where the idea came from, you
and your colleague Maiti.
(05:24):
Did I pronounce that correctlyy?
Yes, I think so.
Oh, so you and you and mateydecided that you were going to
write a book about volunteering.
So tell me about how theconcept of volunteering and the
book came about, because I don'tthink we talk enough about the
importance of volunteering and Ithink that what you both have
(05:46):
achieved in this space inwriting the book, is going to
help a lot of people.
So tell me through whatinspired you to write the book
and what it's about, and why whyvolunteering is so important.
Yasmina Khelifi (05:57):
Yes, thank you, Fatimah, and you are also
passionate volunteer and thankyou for being part of the book
as a great testimony.
So I love this question becausefor me it's a bit incredible.
I met Mayte through a projectmanagement community in 2021.
And then I wanted Mayte to bein my podcast.
(06:20):
So she was a guest in mypodcast because I love her way
of being, her passion, herinternational background, and we
talked together and we made awebinar about volunteering and
there were a lot of questionsand then, based on that, we met
after a second webinar inSpanish and, based on that, we
(06:41):
said why not writing a book?
Because both of us Mayte and Icome from countries where
volunteering is not so important.
Probably in Australia, in theUnited States, in the United
Kingdom, volunteering is part ofthe curriculum at university.
(07:01):
In our case Mayte from Spain,me from France it is not part of
the background, of the academicbackground at our times.
Perhaps it has changed now.
We thought we need to share ourknowledge and how much we have
learned through volunteering.
It was a big discovery for usand also a big joy, in fact, to
(07:25):
volunteer and to meet new people, because all began through a
community of project managementwith volunteers, you know.
So it's how it began.
And for me, I think it's reallyincredible because for both of
us and all people in the projectmanagement communities, it is
obvious to make collaborations,you know, to build projects, to
(07:45):
deliver together.
But when I talk to mycolleagues and many people, they
are very surprised.
They said writing a book withsomeone you have never met,
because I never met face-to-faceMayte.
When I told you in 2021, 2022,and we had the book contract in
January 2023.
And I didn't meet her untilNovember, it was October 2023 in
(08:09):
Atlanta in a project managementsummit.
So you know, it's how it allbegan.
Fatimah Abbouchi (08:15):
And so you said that you got the idea
because of lots of questionscoming through for the webinars.
What were the most commonquestions that was being asked
about volunteering?
Yasmina Khelifi (08:27):
Well, I think people wanted to know how to
begin with.
Also, they were surprised ofall you can learn for
volunteering, because we talkedabout leadership skills,
networking and alsoexperimenting with new things
and people.
They said, oh, we did not knowand also that was surprising for
(08:48):
us.
Some people were alsoastonished that it could be done
virtually and I know it's abuse, but that's correct that many
years ago, when you talked aboutvolunteering, many things
happened on site, in fact,through events, and that's very
important to have events, ofcourse.
But, for example, for me it wasalso a discovery because I was
(09:11):
never interested in volunteering, never Fatimah.
If you had told me reallyvolunteer, I thought I would
have thought why?
Volunteering Fatimah, it's alot of work and, of course, I
have to go on site to meetpeople and I live outside of
Paris and many things happen inParis and for me it was
impossible in the evening.
Many things happen in theevening also, etc.
(09:33):
So and also discovered I coulddeliver projects, meet people,
collaborate online and reallyhaving fun.
So I think that was also adiscovery for people and that's
why and the last question wasalso where to find volunteer
opportunities.
That was the main questions.
Fatimah Abbouchi (09:56):
It's interesting because you're right
.
I, like yourself, havevolunteered many, many years as
long as I can remember.
I think that volunteeringprovides such an incredible
learning opportunity.
I usually say to people whenthey are particularly in our
industry of project management,they're looking for
(10:16):
opportunities to get jobs andthen, during that process, as
part of them trying to find work, they're looking for
opportunities to get jobs andthen, during that process, as
part of them trying to find work, they may not be able to find
it as quickly.
So I say, go and volunteer, getwork experience in the company
that you want to work at whichis what I did when I started my
career 20 years ago and thenthat possibly leads to
(10:38):
opportunities in those companies.
So I think it's a great way,and I honestly didn't.
When you and I'm looking for mybook, it's looking.
So, yeah, when I, when I heardthat you both were writing this
book, I think I wasn't sure whatyou were going to include
because I wasn't sure how muchtopics and how many questions
you can cover.
(10:58):
But if I have a look through,some of the things that really
stood out for me is likeidentifying volunteering goals
that align to your career goals.
That was one of the ones thatreally stood out for me, because
I think that volunteering youcan volunteer almost in any
industry, in any capacity remote, in person, etc.
(11:19):
But it would make sense toalign volunteering to a cause or
maybe a role that you'relooking for.
Did you find through theresearch, speaking to people,
that most of the volunteeringstarted in a place that they
were passionate about?
Yasmina Khelifi (11:37):
Yes, of course, volunteering starts with
passion.
I'd like to get to somethingalso very important.
You said, fatima, aboutvolunteering when you do not
have work.
It's also a way to network,because when you volunteer in
project management communities,you may work with Julia and, I
(11:57):
don't know, perhaps youcollaborate very well with her
and Julia will say yes, you know, we are looking for a new
project manager in the companyand it's how it happened in fact
for some people, and I thinkit's a way also to find a job
and, as you said, we can alsovolunteer in companies to help.
(12:19):
So, in terms of volunteeringgoals, I also want to say that
when we say that with Mayte, itdoesn't mean you have to
volunteer to find a job, youhave to volunteer to align with
your career goals.
That is not what we meant,because some people will say,
okay, it's going to be verytransactional this kind of
volunteering.
(12:39):
So people are not not at all.
For me, we can do both, in fact, to, of course, to have fun and
also to try to learn new skillsor to improve your skills by
volunteering.
So that is what we we want tosay, and carrier goals, in fact
fact for different people wetalked about.
(13:00):
I think sometimes we are notaware of doing it.
Sometimes it's by instinct.
We think, okay, let's do it.
That's why we wanted, also withmy team, to formalize this kind
of things to try to help peopleget clarity.
Why?
Because I noticed, as I toldyou, not like you, I am a new
(13:23):
volunteer, you know, for since2018, exactly only, and when I
began, I did not know what tolook for or what to do.
I was really completely lost.
And when you began to volunteer, also, you got new
opportunities.
People come to you oh, can youhelp with this, can you help
with this?
And I said, yes, why not, whynot, why not?
And at the end, at that point,it was too much.
Fatimah Abbouchi (13:47):
There were some activities I didn't really
enjoy, and that's why we try, byformalizing a bit career goals,
to try to find some, to helphaving some priorities and also
to be able also to choose thevolunteer roles to really enjoy
them I think that's reallyimportant and I know you talk
(14:09):
like through a lot of casestudies and I know that, , it's
a really good example actually,where the reason we came to
know each other is because youvolunteered at the PMO Leader
and the only reason I ended upagreeing to be in the book is
because I knew you because youvolunteered in the PMO Leader.
So it's just a good example ofhow much of a small world it is.
(14:29):
I want to touch on somethingthat you mentioned.
So one of the things we talkedabout you said leadership and
networking of very important,but I think the experimentation
side of volunteering sometimesyou'll do things like you just
described that you don't enjoyand that's fine, but how will
you know if you don't try?
So I find like one of the thingsthat I recommended to people
(14:53):
when they ask about how they getproject management experience,
I say go and and find anopportunity, either in the
company that you're working in,put your hand up.
I remember, for example, I putmy hand up to be the chief fire
warden of our building.
So when the fire alarms got off, I was coordinating all those
people and then other instanceswhere I'm volunteering to you
(15:15):
know, assist one of the staffmembers in the warehouse with
packing goods or whatever itmight be, just to get experience
.
And then you use thatexperience on your resume and
then that resume continues tobuild up and then that's how you
get more opportunities.
What's been your bestvolunteering experience?
Yasmina Khelifi (15:35):
I fully agree with what you said.
For me, really, the discoveryanother one was experimenting
with new things.
Fatimah, I always give thisexample because, once more, it
is incredible.
I began to volunteer in asocial media team at PMI United
Arab Emirates chapter and Ivolunteered to create visuals.
(15:58):
And I volunteer to createvisuals and if you know me, I'm
not an artist.
You know I cannot draw at all.
In fact, at school I was verybad, really very bad at it and I
said why not?
It seems to be interesting, asyou said, why not trying?
And I really enjoyed it and Iimproved myself, I gained
(16:19):
confidence and, for example,last week at work, we at work,
in my workplace, we had aproject management day and we
had to make a big visual, infact, you know, at the entrance
of the building, and I designedit.
In fact, of course, I'm notdesigning a lot, I'm using a
(16:39):
software, you know, a bigsoftware very well known, but
still I was very proud of myself.
So, volunteering, for me, it isa way to experiment with new
things and the advantage is, ofcourse, it doesn't mean you try
one week and you say no, notinteresting, I go.
It's another risk alsoSometimes when you are in your
(16:59):
volunteering space, you have tocommit also because if you say
yes one week, I'm sorry, nointerest, I have to leave now.
For me, you know, the issue isyou work in teams and if you do
not commit then other members ofthe team are going to be
overloaded.
It can happen, of course.
A lot of things can happen inlife.
I don't say you have to commitabsolutely with your blood to do
(17:21):
it, that's not it.
But it's a way, when youvolunteer, to have the
opportunity to try things youdon't have the opportunity to
try at work.
You know, at work, if I said,ok, I'd like to design as a
communication team, ok, I'mhappy, I'd like to design the
display, your next visual theyare going to laugh because it's
not a part of my expertise.
There are people who areexperts in that field.
(17:43):
Yes, also, as you said, talkingand other things I did for
volunteering and I dared to dowas talking in webinars.
Talking in webinars, talking atevents, it's something at work.
We have not a lot ofopportunities to do this kind of
things.
Webinars we have more thanbefore, but talking at big
(18:04):
events not really, because it'sreally.
I'm not a top manager and threetop managers who speak there.
So this is a kind of experience, experiences you can get and,
as you said, it's something youcan add up to your resume and
also for your personalconfidence, because, as a
project leader, we are supposedto communicate well, we are
(18:26):
supposed to present.
You know public speaking.
When you say that, people willsay, no, public speaking is not
really my business.
I'm a technical project manager, but at a certain point you
have to present in front of aboard, yeah, and you have also
to present well.
So there are a lot of skillslike this that, from my point of
view, have learned throughvolunteering.
Fatimah Abbouchi (18:48):
It's really important one thing to call out
that relates to when peoplevolunteer.
It's, of course they're givingup their time and their energy
and all of that.
But one thing I want everyonelistening to know is just
because you're a volunteer, itdoesn't mean you cut corners.
It means that you, you do whatyou're going to say.
You say what you're going to do, do what you're going to say,
(19:10):
because your reputation is stillon the line.
So I think it's just reallyimportant for those that are
listening that maybe areinterested in volunteering, like
you.
You said, don't just give upafter a week.
If you commit to do something,give it your time and attention
and energy, because just becauseyou're not getting paid for it,
if you're committing to a teamor a company or a cause, you
(19:31):
have to put the time and energyand dedication into it, because
otherwise it's still yourreputation on the line.
So I think that's important tocall out because I think people
can be, you know, dipping theirtoes in a little bit and really
not committing.
But I wanted to touch onsomething very important.
You just said the skills thatyou learn, the confidence that
you build.
You're absolutely right.
I agree with that 100%.
(19:53):
I wanted to be a better speakerso I volunteered with our
biggest mental healthnot-for-profit, beyond Blue,
here in Australia, very wellrecognised, and so I volunteered
to speak with them and overtime I think 50, 60, 70 events
later I got better than when Istarted and so, very similar to
(20:15):
you like getting the confidence.
I think, with this new era ofways of working and the
environment and the AI and thetech and the soft skills that
project managers need to have isnot replaceable by AI, so
that's where we should focus.
Yeah, I agree with you,completely, completely agree.
Yasmina Khelifi (20:35):
I agree, and also something you said very
important, Fatimah, is how wecan learn as project
professionals.
You know, in the past I'm anengineer, so you know it was a
lot of theory, a lot of books,and I learned.
At the time we didn't have alot of Internet, you know,
mobile devices etc.
And so the knowledge came fromthe professors.
(20:59):
And what I also discoveredthrough volunteering is how I
can learn by practicing, bytrying, by making mistakes and
by being encouraged by the team,because when I said I design
visuals, I was not alone to doit.
I got very good feedback fromthe team, I got encouragement,
(21:23):
and it's also changed my way onhow we can learn nowadays, and I
think we can learn throughpracticing, through communities
and by talking with people, bylistening to your podcast.
There are a lot of ways oflearning.
It's not only books.
Fatimah Abbouchi (21:49):
There are a lot of ways of learning.
It's not only books, still veryimportant Academics,
universities very important, butwe need to be very open to
different ways of talking aboutit.
I agree, I think a lot oftraining and educational things
out there that are based ontheory need to also say even
with our university partnership.
So we've got an intern fromDenmark starting soon, so she's
(22:10):
going to be coming to Australiaand working with us because
she's learned all the theory ofproject management, but now it's
the time for her to actuallyput it into practice.
So she can do that through aninternship, which is equivalent
to, you know, like somevolunteering, and so doing that
means she's going to learn thoseskills which are essential for
her future career.
Without that, she'll probablyget there, but it will just take
(22:31):
longer.
So I think that that's reallyimportant for people to, you
know, to really emphasize onlearning, for people to really
emphasize on learning.
I wanted to ask about your.
You have a my VolunteeringCanvas.
What is it?
Yasmina Khelifi (22:47):
And how can listeners use it in their own
journey?
Yes, exactly, maite and Idesigned a framework, my
volunteering canvas.
The aim of this framework is tohelp volunteers to find their
opportunities they want to be.
It's also a kind of.
We recommend to use it onecanvas by role, so that you can
(23:10):
design.
You can also from the beginning.
At the beginning, when you lookfor a volunteer role, you have
to know your values, to be clearon your values, your passion,
your purpose, and also to beclear what skills you want to
learn, how do you want tonetwork and if you want to
experiment with new things.
And we have also some questionsaround the criteria for the
volunteer role.
And it gets back to what wesaid when you volunteer.
(23:33):
I think it's when we saidcommitment.
It's also good to be honestfrom the start.
I think from the criteria, Ican say to you Fatimah, you know
, Fatimah, I'd like to volunteerin your organization, but I
will have six months.
After six months I will not beavailable anymore.
So for me it's fine to say thatbecause at least you can
propose and you can propose me,give me a volunteer role that
(23:58):
fits with that commitment, andthen we agree together.
Is the role also hybrid, faceto face or only virtual.
It's something you have to beclear from the beginning.
So this kind of canvas, youhave some questions and the
volunteers can answer and getclarity.
And when you are in yourvolunteer journey, we encourage
(24:20):
people feeling also taking thevolunteering, my volunteering
canvas regularly and also checkwhat they learned, kind of
learnings.
We have a last part learnings,and I think it's important to
capitalize and to think because,as we said, the world is very
quick.
We are learning a lot of thingswithout being aware of it and we
(24:42):
need it's hard to say it, butwe need to take some minutes
during the week to say what didI learn this week at work and in
all the other activities I amdoing outside of work and in all
the other activities I am doingoutside of work.
And it is also a way tocapitalize on the different
things because you know it comesalso from personal experiences.
(25:03):
I am not very good atinterviews and I remember a few
years ago when I wanted tochange positions, I presented
how I presented myself.
The interviewer, the guy, let'scall it Mike asked me so what
did you do in that project?
Well, I did small things.
I coordinated the testers, thedevelopment software teams.
(25:26):
Really, I didn't prepare wellthe interviews because I didn't
capitalize on all the stories,all the learnings I had.
Of course you can say justprepare properly your interviews
, but I think, doing it everyweek it is also a way to
remember what you learned andafter, at a certain point, you
have so many stories to shareand tell for your next role,
(25:49):
your next job.
Fatimah Abbouchi (25:51):
I think it's true because, if you think about
it, a lot of these people,without having something to
guide them, they're probablygoing to bounce around.
I mean, it's good to try lotsof different things, but if you
have a goal that you're tryingto achieve, whether it's a
business or your career, it'sgood to work towards that and
get experience.
Like, really, one of thebiggest gaps for a lot of people
(26:13):
is when they want to get into acertain industry.
And so, for example, I knowsomeone who wants to get into
the energy industry, theenvironmental energy industry.
She doesn't have the experienceand they're probably not going
to hire her, even though she'sgot a great product background.
But what she can do is do somevolunteering and over time she
will build up knowledge andskills that become invaluable
(26:36):
for her when she goes andapplies for a job.
So I think I think that makessense.
I think also, the other thing isknowledge, skills and
connections.
So I think if you're notgetting knowledge, you're not
getting skills or you're notgetting connections in your
volunteering role, it's time tomove on.
Would you agree with that?
Yasmina Khelifi (26:53):
Yes, I agree, after Fatimah, it's always what
I say.
It's up to people.
There are some people theyvolunteer for more than 20, 30
years and perhaps they are notreally interested in expanding
their network because theyvolunteer always with the same
people.
They enjoy volunteering alwayswith the same people and I think
it's great.
It's their freedom to do it.
(27:13):
What I want also to say tovolunteers we also, with Mayte,
wrote it in the book we saidit's also good sometimes to
intentionally say I want tovolunteer with people I don't
know at all, because it's alwaysvery comfortable.
If I volunteer with Mayte, I amso happy to volunteer with her,
to volunteer with you, fatima.
But it's good also to say let'stry to volunteer to be part of
(27:37):
a new project with people I donot know, because it's a way to
confronting new situations andto work with diverse people.
In fact, because sometimes, forinstance for me at work, I'm
very comfortable because I workwith the same people for a long
time In fact.
And also I think volunteeringalso brings me the opportunity
to meet quickly new people andmost of the time I never meet
(28:00):
them face to face so quickly.
You have to do something withsomeone you don't really know
very well, you don't really meet, but still you have to deliver
and because of thiscollaboration, the trust you are
building, at the end you aregoing to deliver a great project
.
So it really depends.
The volunteering canvas myvolunteering canvas, as you said
(28:23):
, is a way to get clarity onwhere you want to go and it was
also a way for me, for example,to know exactly when I have to
say no to a volunteeropportunity.
Because, as I said, in thevolunteering space there are not
a lot of people and sometimesyou do it well and people come
(28:44):
to you.
This is a passion.
Can you help?
Can you help?
And I said yes, yes, yes, yes.
And as I told you at thebeginning, there are some
volunteer roles I was not reallyinterested in.
But I said, why not doing it?
Oh, I have to say also becauseit was a big title.
You know, it was like a projectmanager of a conference.
Why not, why not?
But after I didn't really enjoyit because of the organization
(29:06):
it was done, because also somevolunteers to work with, et
cetera.
And also it's a thing when youvolunteer, you do not volunteer
for the big title.
You can do it, but you have tobe passionate about it also
Because, as we said, it's a lotof work and a lot of time and
people.
They are waiting for theresults at the end.
Fatimah Abbouchi (29:27):
Yeah, 100%, you're right.
I mean it's okay sometimes ifyou pick a volunteering job
because of the title.
The volunteering is somethingthat people do because obviously
they have the title.
Or you know the volunteering issomething that people do
because obviously they have thedesire or the passion or the
time and so they've got to getsome benefit from doing it.
You know you're doing it for agood cause usually, but you do
(29:49):
get the benefit of the knowledge, the skills, the reputation,
the connections, you know thosethings.
So I think it's okay forvolunteers to you know, receive
some benefit.
Otherwise, you know, no onewould volunteer really if there
wasn't some sort of that, evenif the benefit is more friends
or you know connections or anyof those things.
So I think that's all reallypositive.
What's been the feedback you'vegotten since you wrote the book
(30:13):
?
Because, as I said, I hadn'tcome across something that talks
about this subject in this muchdetail and it's really well
written and you have lots ofcase studies now and a lot of
people have contributed, myselfincluded, who have contributed
to you, support your chapter.
So what's the biggest feedbackyou've been getting from the
book?
Yasmina Khelifi (30:31):
Well, usually people are very happy, surprised
by the topic, how it was, andthank you very much for your
great feedback about the writing.
It was a lot of work.
It's also something I wasn'taware.
We were not aware with Maytethat writing a book is a real
project and, as always, you haveto know what quality you want
to reach.
And in our side you know wework also very much in an agile
(30:56):
way Because the way we did it,we first did the table of
contents and we shared withdifferent colleagues and friends
to get their feedback.
After we decided we divided thedifferent chapters.
And what is important and why Ilove working collaborating with
Mayte is we both have a highcritical mind, and this one
(31:17):
probably.
I have to say it's culturalalso, in fact, French and
Spanish.
We have a lot of negativefeedback, but in that case it's
very good because I wrotesomething and Mayte asked a lot
of questions that I do not agreeand I did the same also with
her.
And after we have the bookchapters read by beta readers we
call it beta readers, it meanspeople who get feedback, et
(31:38):
cetera and after we had also anexcellent copy editor helping in
reviewing.
So it depends on the qualityyou want to have and you're
right, we try to have diverse,really diverse people in terms
of interviews thought leaders,like you and, because it was not
so easy, and from differentorganizations project
organizations also around theworld.
(31:59):
So it was a lot of work and wealso made surveys surveys to
board members, surveys tovolunteers, surveys to human
resource managers to get realdata and to have the book backed
on research.
So it was really a lot of work.
You know, when I heard peoplesaying I've written a book, now
(32:20):
I know how much time anddedication and passion it needs
to be written.
Fatimah Abbouchi (32:26):
Well, thank you for writing it because, as I
said, I think it's a really,really interesting book.
The content of it is verypractical.
So I think people who maybe,maybe those that haven't
volunteered or those that, likeus, volunteer and probably could
brush up on some of theseinsights, I think, can really
benefit from learning about it.
(32:47):
As I said, I thought it was aninteresting concept, which is
why I wanted us to meet and havea chat today.
I think you guys have done awonderful job in getting it to
where it is.
There's so much work that goesinto this and people, I think,
underestimate it, and you'reright, it's a true project.
So you've now got a project,another project on your record
of projects to add to because ofthe work that's gone in there.
(33:10):
So thank you for doing that.
We're nearly at the end of ourtime today.
My last question for you ourclosing tradition is to ask if
there is anything else thatyou'd like to share with our
listeners, a call to action, apiece of advice or a question to
ponder before we wrap up todayby volunteering, by helping.
Yasmina Khelifi (33:28):
I think it's a wonderful place.
You can meet really interestingpeople around the world and you
can learn a lot.
Learn a lot about yourself andyou can become a better project
leader.
Fatimah Abbouchi (33:47):
And where would be the best place for
people to find volunteeropportunities.
What was the best?
One or two places do yourecommend?
Yasmina Khelifi (33:58):
For me there is a PMO leader, so it's a really
a great community.
There is also a conference tocome every year.
There is an annual conferenceand you can help be part of the
core team, also be a volunteerto be a speaker there, and there
are there are a lot of projectmanagement organizations,
project management institutes.
There is also IPMA anddepending on the countries it
(34:20):
can be strong or not.
So I'm sure near you you have avolunteer community project
management community you canvolunteer in.
Fatimah Abbouchi (34:29):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The PMO Leader is the pmoleader.
com for anyone listening.
We do have a conference comingup, actually very soon you're
right in October and thevolunteer and speaking
opportunities are open.
So thank you for sharing that.
And I think PMI is probably areally good place because they
are the biggest projectmanagement organisation and so
they have chapters in so manycountries and they are run by
(34:50):
volunteers, so PMI's websitewould be another good place as
well, so I think that's reallygood advice.
Well, Yasmina, thank you somuch for your time today.
I look forward to peopleaccessing your book.
I'll make sure they connectwith you.
Where's the best place to findyou?
Is it LinkedIn or website?
Yasmina Khelifi (35:10):
It's LinkedIn and also Mayte is very active on
LinkedIn.
So for both of us, you canconnect with us on LinkedIn and
we have also a website for thebook and my website, but
LinkedIn is a primary source ofcontact for me.
Fatimah Abbouchi (35:22):
Okay, amazing.
Well, thank you, it's been apleasure.
Have a good day.
Yasmina Khelifi (35:27):
Thank you so much, Fatimah.
It was a pleasure to talk withyou.
Fatimah Abbouchi (35:31):
Thank you so much for listening to this
podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
date with all things Agile Ideas, go to our website, www.
(35:52):
agilemanagementoffice.
com.
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel or be inspired today
.
Until next time, what's yourAgile Idea?
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