#164 | Navigating Strategic Transformation with Human Centred Change with Renee Giacalone - Agile Ideas

Episode Transcript
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Fatimah Abbouchi (00:00):
You're listening to Agile Ideas, the
podcast hosted by FatimahAbbouchi.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm Fatimah, CEO at AMO, mentalHealth Ambassador and your host

(00:21):
.
Before we get into today'sepisode, I wanted to share with
you all, if you are not alreadyaware, that I have set up my own
Substack newsletter and ittalks about all things execution
and execution gaps.
Originally set it up as a bitof a playbook for PMO, but then

(00:42):
evolved it and now cover topicsacross change, transformation
and really insights from seeingand doing things in different
environments over the last 20years.
The Execution Gap SubstackNewsletter is a little bit more
of a deep dive and goes intopractical how-tos in terms of

(01:04):
addressing particular themes andchallenges that I've observed
or that viewers and followershave shared and asked.
So to find the Substacknewsletter, go to www.
substack.
com.
Forward slash the execution gap.

(01:25):
Over the past 30 years, reneehas led enterprise-wide
strategic change andtransformation, delivering value
to Fortune 500 companies suchas Bank of America, kellogg and
McDonald's.
Renee specializes in buildingworld-class EPMOs, creating
optimal business managementroutines to drive outcomes,

(01:45):
accelerating change adoptionthrough a human-centric approach
and cultivating high-performingteams through effective
coaching, learning anddevelopment.
So please join me in welcomingRenee to the show.
Renee, thank you so much forjoining us today.

Renee Giacalone (02:03):
I am so glad to be here.
Thank you for inviting me.

It's been interesting.
I was just saying, as I wasrecording your bio, that we
coincidentally came across eachother through an article I had
written and then I reached outand said, check out this article
.
And then we connected and nowwe're here.
So I'm really excited and sharea lot of share a lot of similar
views with some of the thingsthat you talk about.
So I'm really excited and sharea lot of similar views with

(02:27):
some of the things that you talkabout.
So I'm excited to get into allof that.
But I wanted to kick us offwith you recently made the leap
from being in corporate Americato entrepreneurship.
How is it going so far and hasthere been any interesting
learnings in the last I think?
Has it going so far and hasthere been any interesting
learnings in the last I think?
Has it been a month?

Just about, just about.
Yeah, thank you for startingwith that question, because
obviously it's quite top of mind.
Yes, just about mid-May I madethe decision to officially open
my own business consulting firm.
I mean, look, I've spent 30years in corporate America in
some shape or form largecompanies, small companies,

(03:11):
mostly large companies and thenI, you know, gained a lot from
it.
But I'd reached a point.
You know you reach a point whenyou want to work on your terms.
I want to bring everything Ihave learned over those 30 years
and I found that corporate jobswere limiting and you know,
there's also some of thecultural dynamics of working in

(03:32):
an organization that gettiresome and I just made the
decision that now is the time togo solo.
And it's been great.
The best part about it ismeeting people like you, right?
I mean, you don't have the time.
When you're a slave to theclock and you're a slave to your
you know outlook calendar andyou're trying to commute back

(03:55):
and forth, you just don't havethe time to find, you know, high
quality relationships andinvest in them.
And so I am so appreciative ofbeing able to do that right now
and I trust and have faith thatthat will lead to.
You know, one conversationleads to another.
We're still in early days.
Obviously the market is alittle soft in the summertime

(04:15):
for here in the United States alot of vacations but we're
making progress and again I'mhaving a great time getting to
know people and learning abouttheir problems and business
opportunities that I might beable to help them with.
So we're off to as good a startas you can when you're starting
a new business.

Well, welcome, welcome to the entrepreneurship
journey.
I'm sure it's going to be aroller coaster of emotions.
I can definitely tell you that,and I think also, like you said
, the experiences that you'vegarnered from your career are
going to be immensely helpful inthis small business.
I like to think that havingthat big corporate background

(04:54):
helps you understand problems ona larger scale, and then you
just need to bite, size themdown into a small business.
So I think that that'sdefinitely going to be part of
the journey, but I'm keen to seehow that journey progresses as
you go.
I'm always here as an open ear,so tell me, you've obviously
when I sort of started talkingabout your background, you've

(05:15):
worked at some really bigcompanies.
You spent almost 10 years atBank of America, you've worked
at Kellogg's and most recentlyat McDonald's.
Is there a particularexperience in your journey I
like to think of?
You know our corporate careerhaving some, I guess, career
defining moments.
Was there any career definingmoments for you that really

(05:36):
stand out?
That is a lesson that you cantell us about that really helped
shape your career.

Yeah, yeah, I think so.
And, to your point, given thatI've worked at a lot of
different places, there's a lotof stories to draw on.
But when I reflect on kind ofmoments of inflection, there's
two that come to mind.
First, the first 10 years of mycareer actually before some of
those companies that youmentioned I was in business to
business sales, started as anentry level sales rep and worked

(06:03):
my way up and I found that Icould be probably the second
best sales rep all the timebecause I didn't really have
that hunter instinct.
I was a problem solver.
So the first defining momentwas when I actually read the
book Now Discover your Strength,realized that I could keep

(06:27):
doing what I was doing and beingkind of.
You know a second sales rep whohappened to love to solve
problems for customers, or I cango get a job that leverages the
skills of solving problems, andthat was a big, big turning
point in my career.
The second one that reallyshaped kind of my passion for
change management, that humancentricity for execution, came
later, at my time at the bank.

(06:48):
I was running banking centers atthe time, or branches that you
might refer to them, 40 of them.
I had an extended team of about400 people and in that
experience that kind offrontline leadership experience
I've learned the hard lessonsabout humanity, about change and
how humans respond to change.

(07:11):
I ended up leading this teamafter a acquisition.
We had acquired our rival, ourlocal rival, and the majority of
my staff came from that rivalbank no-transcript sales

(07:53):
oriented than service oriented,and they never saw themselves
that way.
So it was a real mindset shiftand so it really taught me hard
lessons about you know you candraw up great plans, you can
have a great product or process,but you got to win the hearts
and minds.
You got to meet people wherethey're at and pull them into
the journey as opposed to pushchange on to them.

(08:16):
I could go on and on about someof the techniques we use, but
we might we might hear moreabout that in follow up
questions here.
We use, but we might hear moreabout that in follow-up
questions here.
But that was a real watershedmoment and it was experiences
that I draw upon frequently whenI start to work on a really
large strategic change.

It's so interesting because you're right
, when there's sort of yourreally large transformations
like an acquisition, I feel likea lot of the time it draws
people to have fear that they'regoing to lose their jobs or
that a restructure is coming.
And look, a lot of time thereis a restructure and I just feel
like one of the things I see alot and I'm wondering whether

(08:58):
you see this too is changemanagement in general sits in
one of two camps it's either anafterthought and completely
neglected, and therefore there'sno budget or resources assigned
to it, or that it's done, butusually under the guise of oh,
that's the project manager's jobor the program manager's job.
What do you typically see andhow do you influence executives

(09:19):
to give change management thetime and energy that it actually
needs to deal with situationslike that?

Yeah, no, it's a great question.
I do see a lot of variability.
I see it as, sometimes, changemanagement, when it's provided,
they over index.
On the upfront part, it's allabout training and comms and
that's it, and they give noattention to post go live, no
coaching and support, and Ifirmly believe that there is no

(09:47):
amount of training you can putpeople through before the change
is real, before your hands onthe keyboard, that you just
you'll never learn enough, youwon't retain enough.
You need to support them postgo live.
You're absolutely right now interms of convincing them of the
investment.

(10:08):
Some of the learnings I've hadcame from mistakes, came from,
like I said, this, over indexing, we're going to do all this.
Massive amounts of training,six weeks of training, we go
live, and then everyone'sscratching their head wondering
wait a minute, they're not doingit, they don't get it, they
don't understand it.
Oh, I guess we need to retrainthem on everything, right,

(10:29):
everybody.
And so one of the approachesI've taken that seems to have
worked a few times is like okay,let's play this out.
How much energy do you want tospend doing it all again?
Right, you know, after we golive.
Why don't we do thisproactively.
Why don't we do the minimum toget them excited and kind of

(10:50):
conceptually ready for thechange and then let's spend the
time, money and energy coachingand supporting them after the
change while they're doing it,because then it's real, it's not
conceptual, it's nothypothetical, they're really
doing it.
And that's when the realquestions and concerns and fear
starts to come out and some ofthe techniques that I find that

(11:12):
work way better than you knowover engineering, on training,
formal training, to go grab a,call it an early adopter,
somebody who's a peer that'strusted, that you can have, sit
down, virtually or otherwise,shoulder to shoulder, and say
talk to me, what is it about theprocess or the tool that you're

(11:35):
getting stuck?
Where are you getting stuck?
And I can help you.
That actually doesn't cost youthat much.
It's just take some planningand forethought and some
acknowledgement that you'reprobably not going to get them
completely ready ahead of golive.
You're going to need to bethere to catch them, support
them after you go live.
So I have a.
I have a.
I'm very passionate about the,the, you know, kind of over more

(11:58):
, over indexing or placing moreemphasis on post go live,
because I, because I think itworks better and it's meeting
people where they're at.

It's so interesting.
You say that because I see alot of transformation programs.
I can think of a recent onethat was a quite large $50
million program and changemanagement and the change
management team.
They were allocated to thisprogram and they spent a lot of
time planning the changeplanning, the change planning,
the change and the training andthe comms.
And then they execute right atgo live point but nobody

(12:27):
actually spent any time gettingup.
So you see all these peoplethat are seeing things happening
in this big program team of ahundred people but not really
know what's coming, and then atthe end you expect them to get
it in a two week, you knowwindow.
Well, I don't.

It's just crazy to me yeah, yeah, I just, I
mean I think we need to there.
There is scientific proof andstudies that talk about the
limits of training.
The amount of amount ofinformation one retains
diminishes dramatically withevery hour, day, week between
the training event and theactual application of the

(13:02):
learning.
It's kind of fact.
So I think, I think that that'sanother strategy that I've used
.
I've kind of brought out someof those facts and go look, I'm
not making this up, you know,think about yourself, when
you've taken a training, howquickly did it kind of leak
right back out, right, and youneeded to have some form of
support or a refresher once youactually started trying to apply

(13:24):
the training or the new process, etc.
So, yeah, I'm not sure whyfolks struggle with the concept.

So much they like to.
I call the change managementstuff fluffy.
They like to think about thechange management stuff as the
fluffy stuff you know, genericlittle loot bags and all those
sorts of things.
What are some thinking about?
Change adoption techniques andthings you've seen.
What are some of the metricsthat you would typically use to

(13:51):
measure a change adoption?

Yeah, so that does.
There's a wide range of those.
So, metric wise, look there's,some of the standard ones are
ahead of time.
You are trying to get a handleon their mindset.
So I do want to take somesurveys, I do want people to
kind of rate their feelings andreadiness about the change
that's coming.
I think that's pretty prettystrong practice that I've seen

(14:15):
work really well.
But I also really like and thisisn't necessarily a metric, but
I really like focus groups,like getting small groups
together to hear about realconcerns.
I mean, I've done that a fewtimes and actually what came out
of some of those focus groupswere legitimate.
You know either process flawsor missed opportunities, because

(14:36):
you know employee base can bequite vast and there could be a
lot of variability in thecurrent state and so it's really
hard to go find out every nitand nat and nuance that the
organization may have and thosecome out in talking to real
people.
So I do like to do that andthat does kind of supplement the
quantitative data aroundsentiment surveys.

(14:59):
Clearly, if at all possible, I'dlove finding ways to measure
the actual usage of the processor the tool.
Sometimes that's quite easy Ifit's a system.
Sometimes it's as simple aslogging in right, how many times
did they log in?
And so it can vary.

(15:21):
But process adoption some ofthe techniques I've used are
like post go live certifications.
So I would go and sit, you know, send an expert in to kind of
observe.
You know how somebody might beapplying that process.
Again, this works in sales andcustomer facing scenarios where
you can actually observe callcenters, things of that nature.

(15:42):
You can actually observe andyou can say, hey, are they
adopting the best practices asdefined?
Where are they debating?
Where are they not?
And you can quantify that too,especially when you're talking
about a process change, becauseyou're talking about behaviors
and mindsets.
So those are some of myfavorite ways of doing it.
And then my other favorite wayis to kind of use a little

(16:03):
competition.
And then my other favorite wayis to kind of use a little
competition.
I believe that humans as a ruledon't like to be embarrassed and
so, taking advantage of thatnotion, what I'll do is Postco
Live will do some contests andyou publish kind of some results
so that people can see wherethey stack and rank against some

(16:25):
of their peers.
You know, are they coming upthe learning curve or are they
not, generally speaking, justhaving that displayed with no
even real editorial behind it?
It gets people going.
Hey, wait a minute, I'm in thebottom quartile, I don't want to
be in the bottom quartile, whatdo I need to do?
I'm in the bottom quartile, Idon't want to be in the bottom

(16:47):
quartile, what do I need to do?
And so sometimes simply justexposing how people are doing,
again in a it's not in a meanspirited way, it's not in a
shaming way, but it's just tokind of stoke that kind of
competitive human nature to sayyou know, I don't, I want to
succeed, I don't, I don't wantto be at the, you know, ranked
at the bottom, and so let me getmore engaged and let me figure
out how I can, you know, adoptand succeed.

(17:08):
So those are some of themetrics and ways I try to
measure adoption.

I think they're really great examples
and I think, like you said,depending on the, I guess, the
culture and the environmentyou'll modify, I think some
people are so burnt by changethat change happening at them,
not with them that it makes itreally difficult.
So I think any way of measuringimprovements, that competition
sort of style, is really good,because we often assume people

(17:34):
don't have capacity to getinvolved.
But they actually really wantto and I feel like they're less
fearful of the change if youinclude them.

Absolutely.
I'll give you one more example.
Actually, another techniqueI've used is is taking advantage
of FOMO, the fear of being leftout Another very common human
trait, right?
I implemented a new checklistfor a call center and there were
five teams and I gave this newscript sorry, it wasn't a, it
was a script to help upsellbetter and I gave it to one team

(18:05):
.
They started using it and theircross-sell rates started
improving really quickly.
The other team started askingquestions hey, all of a sudden,
your cross-sell rates are goingto.
What are you doing?
Oh well, I am using this newscript, this new technique.
It's working really well.
So what has that done?
Yes, I didn't get the benefitsright away by exposing it to
everybody.
I took a slower roll to get itstarted, but now I have pull.

(18:28):
Now I have people saying whencan I get it?

When am I getting it because that looks
pretty good.

I want that.
That is the easiest way to dochange, to be honest, and I
found that to work even better.

It goes back to what you said earlier.
I mean we call them super usersas an example.
But finding some of those, Iguess change champions, super
users, those that have influenceand pull in an organization,
and leveraging them because ifthey can get excited about the
change and really sort of jumpon board that journey, others
will follow because theirtrusted employee colleagues are

(19:03):
actually on board that change.
So sounds so simple, but peoplecontinuously are make the
mistake of not not um factoringthese things in.
So I wanted, I wanted to shiftgears a little bit because still
still referencing change, butone of the challenges I think is
where does change managementfit in an organization?
Some people will say that ifyou're running an EPMO which

(19:25):
you've done many times thatchange management is outside of
the EPMO.
Sometimes it says it's withinthe PMO.
Where do you think changemanagement as a capability
within an organization actuallyfits?
Where have you seen it workwell and not so well?

Oh, I love this question.
I'm very passionate about thisquestion.
So, first, my current state isyou're absolutely right.
It is everywhere, from HR toPMO to non-existent right, it's
all over the map.
Personally, I see you know I'lltake you back to when I first
learned anything about projectmanagement.

(20:01):
It was a thousand years ago andit was under the.
It was as I was getting my SixSigma black belt.
That's when I first learned allabout project management and
change management Wasn't throughmy time in technology, as it
turns out, and in my mind, theway it was taught to me.
It was embedded.

(20:23):
I, as a Six Sigma black belt,did not have a specialist called
a change manager to rely on.
My job as leading a Six Sigmaproject was to ensure that we
knew the problem.
We brainstormed solutions,tested those solutions, deployed
them in a way that they stuckand we got the benefits.

(20:44):
Well, to do that, you have toknow change management, because
you know Six Sigma is all aboutprocess improvement.
Well, who follows processes?
People, humans.
And until humans are allreplaced with robots which
hasn't happened yet, right, weneed to be aware and understand
how humans behave, and so Ilearned all about behavioral

(21:07):
science and human behavior andhow they react to change as a
part of running those programs.
And so I'll be honest, I'mbiased in that.
I like to see it integratedbecause I'm tired that the
energy wasted and actuallytrying to parse out the exact
deliverables that are changeversus program, versus project.

(21:27):
I kind of struggle with that.
To me it feels like wastedenergy.
I, in fact, when I leftMcDonald's, one of the last
missions I gave to my PMO leadwas to upskill as many senior
program managers on the fullsuite of change management so
that we weren't dependent on aconsultant all the time, not

(21:48):
that I don't love consultants.
I am one now right, butsometimes you don't need all
that overhead and infrastructure.
You need to appreciate what ittakes to make a project
successful and one of the thingsis adopting the change,
whatever it may be.
I also didn't want to bereliant on necessarily a

(22:11):
dedicated team.
We had a dedicated team as well, but they were limited in
resources.
So my final answer would bepersonally, I'd love to see it
integrated.
I'd like to see if there is aplace for a dedicated SWAT team
of really really highly skilledchange managers for maybe the
biggest transformations.

(22:31):
Maybe they're more of a coachand less of a doer, and then the
program managers are skilled atreally doing the planning and
driving it out with the benefitof the best practices and the
expertise from, say, a changeCOE.
I really like that model.
I get that.
A program manager can't beexpected to be an expert in all

(22:54):
disciplines.
They need to phone a friend,they need support.
But I don't like the idea oflike two discrete individuals
with different mindsets fightingover turf when inside of a
project or trying to parse outyou know, my deliverable, your
deliverable.
I care about change, you don't.
To me that's wasted energy andI'd like to.

(23:15):
I like to see that merged witha support structure that makes
sure they're they're armed anddangerous and ready to really
manage the change effectively.
So you may not have expectedthat answer, but that's the best
one.

I have that.
That example there.
Just rings true to you know,another program I was working on
where there was so much timespent debating what's change and
what's project delivery andthey had consultants come in
very big name consultants andthey had to cycle through
multiple change managers.
And where we landed was weactually got clarity that the

(23:54):
change management team weregoing to be managing the change
in comms activity external tothe program so your end users,
your operational teams, yourvendors, et cetera.
And then the PMO that sat inthe middle said that they were
going to be supporting thechange into project delivery,
working with the projectmanagers, the program managers,
the BAs, etc.
So effectively, we worked intandem as opposed to fighting

(24:18):
over that turf.
So it's a very real problem andI do agree with you.
I don't think it's always blackand white.
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
So one thing that's reallyinteresting you talk a lot about
change and one of the thingsthat you did during COVID is you
sold your house and you gaveeverything away and you became a
digital nobody.
So if there's anyone whounderstands change, it's

(24:40):
definitely you.
Tell me about that.

It's crazy, but , look, I can get a little
restless.
My husband has a littlewanderlust too, but, like since
I was a kid, I love change.
I used to rearrange the youknow the furniture in my room
like every you know, every monthor so, because I would just
want something new.
I haven't lived in the samehouse or, quite frankly, as you

(25:05):
can tell, even worked for thesame organization all that long.
I am not the person who's goingto be the, you know, obviously
it's too late for that, but youknow, the 30 year life, I like
change, I like change.
And so this opportunitypresented itself.
You know, working from home wasavailable to me and as long as
I had my background on, theydidn't know where I was.

(25:26):
In fact, we were really hopingin the early days that we could
go to Europe even and work.
You know I'll work, you know,us time but be in France.
But the borders closed and thatwas impossible.
So we instead, you know, tookoff to see a couple different
cities in the US that we wereinterested in and loved and

(25:47):
loved, loved the flexibility.
I will say, you know, from aprofessional perspective, I'm
very conflicted on this topic.
I love the work from home thing, but I also was running a
massive business integration.
We had acquired a small companythree years prior to that and
finally got around tointegrating them.
And then then COVID hit and andthere was big cultural

(26:10):
differences.
Think, think, mom and popentrepreneurial company bought
by a behemoth right megacorporation.
So the culture clash was real.
And not being able to look I,you know, look at each other in
the eye, go out for a beer,break bread, to kind of work
through challenges, took a toll.
It did have an impact on the onthe project.

(26:33):
We got it done, but it was morepainful than it needed to be
and I know COVID was a part ofit.
That inability, you know, toget to know each other.
Look, humans are socialcreatures.
People need people, right, andyou know.
So I'm very conflicted on it.
I'd like to return to home butI return to office, but I really

(26:54):
do, you know.
Also like the flexibility andthe reduction in commute time.

I get to use that time for things like this,
right yeah exactly and honestly,just based on the way that you
described your, you know yourstyle.
This entrepreneurship journeythat you're now on as your own
consulting company is actuallyperfect for it because it gives
you that flexibility to do that.
But I agree, I think, just onthe return to to the office

(27:19):
mandate, the only thing I cansay is, if I think back um 20,
22 years ago, when I started mycareer, I can't imagine getting
to where I am today if I wasearly on in my career working
from home.
I think as a more as a as earlyregardless of the age, but as
someone starting early in theircareer, I think the benefit that

(27:40):
you get from being in theoffice.
Maybe when you're more maturein your career career and you've
spent a long time buildingrelationships, it might not be
as impactful, but I do thinkthat there's a big benefit of
having the flexibility of beingin the office more often than
not, but also flexibility toalso work from home without the
guilt.
So I think.
But let's see how that playsout Great.

Just to pile on there the benefits for that
early career person of beingaround senior career people
who've been there, though that'swhere some of the learning and
the wisdom comes from, and so wegot to show up for our younger,
you know, early careerteammates, and so, yeah, I said

(28:26):
I'm conflicted.
I love the benefits, but I alsovery much appreciate the power
of people being with people.

Yeah, absolutely, otherwise you get
forgotten.
I really do think I'm veryvisual.
If I don't see something, Iforget about it, and often you
forget about employees thataren't in the office as sad as
that is.
So one of the other things youtalk about, which I love and not
many people talk about this isso one of the other things you
talk about which I love and notmany people talk about this, is

(28:54):
the fact that project managementshould be for everyone.
I'm super passionate about thisbecause I feel like,
particularly with the work thatwe've been doing over the years,
is, strategy is one thing whichwe'll talk about in this moment
.
And then you've got delivery,and then you've got operational
teams, and operational teams,who are those that have to work
with projects for most of theirlifetimes, don't seem to be
given any training, anyexperience, any thought, but yet

(29:16):
then people expect them to getup to speed on how projects are
going to be delivered.
So tell me why you're sopassionate about that, and do
you think that projectmanagement should be taught
across the company, even forpeople that aren't in project
management roles?

Great question.
I'm so glad we get to get tothis one and I want to give this
a good bit of air because I'mequally passionate about it.
So this epiphany happened whenI was actually at Kellogg.
I was asked to intervene on abusiness project that wasn't
going well.
I was working with operationspeople, marketing people, supply
chain people, non-projectmanagement professionals, a
little bit of IT, but not reallymostly business people, and

(29:57):
these guys are smart, talented,some of the best in their fields
, but had absolutelyself-proclaimed no idea how to
organize around a problem andget to the other side it just
they couldn't do it, theycouldn't get out of their own
way, they couldn't get thetraction.
So, as I said, I intervened, Igot involved, we started to get

(30:19):
organized, we solved some of thechallenges that were getting in
their way and after a whilesomeone on the team coined the
phrase hashtag need more Renee's.
They were so pleased with youknow how I helped them kind of
get off dead center.
But obviously you knowappreciate the compliment, but
obviously the answer wasn't togo hire more Renee's, right,

(30:43):
that isn't.
You know, that isn't an optionfinancially, not an option
complimentary, as that would bean option financially, not an
option, complimentary as thatwould be.
So I actually got inspired tosolve the problem another way or
to address this need anotherway.
I created this high impact,concentrated what do you know?
What is the minimum you mustknow to, as a business person,

(31:06):
to lead a project?
And I started trainingdifferent operational team
members marketing supply chainteam members on this.
And then, true to my philosophyabout change, I offered office
hours every week that they couldcall into to get real time on

(31:26):
the spot, coaching and feedback.
They're putting a chartertogether that they have to go
send to their boss to get somefunding to start a project to
solve a problem.
They would show up with a copyof that charter and I would
critique it and I would tellthem how to make it better.
I would point out where theyhave gaps.
And we did that week in andweek out.
And people started showing upweek in and week out to get that

(31:50):
support and reinforcement.
Because, again, just like wetalked about, I could have
trained that all day long, butif they walked away, never used
it again, it's gone, it's as ifI never did it.
And so we would try to catchthem when they had active
project work going on, and thenagain we would back them up with
that weekly access to an expert.

(32:12):
You know, I called it the phone, a friend hour right call in
and get the help you need rightnow.
And so that was our way ofexpanding our reach as a PMO
without expanding a singleheadcount, and so I and I, and
that worked really well.
We got incredible feedback onthe process and we had every

(32:35):
intention.
I think they're still doing itto this day.
To your question about who andhow should we teach project
management I am still shockedthat people go and getting their
MBAs in business school, stillwalk out not knowing this.
I have to say I'm still shocked.
Get your money back, guys,because you should be walking
out knowing how to do this.
I had this idea the other day.

(32:56):
Think about HR.
Hr helps people.
Managers manage people better.
They have best practices, theyhave tools, they coach them and
they counsel them, but theynever actually manage the people
for them Right.
They help the people who do it.
I think the PMO could take asimilar role.

(33:17):
Own the idea, as I did, ofpassing on the basic knowledge
of how to run projects toeverybody in the organization
who wants it and then, like Isaid, be there to support them,
but you don't do it for them,you support them.
Now there's always bigstrategic initiatives, that a

(33:39):
PMO kind of like the changemanagement conversation.
You want your best andbrightest and most experienced
person.
You're not going to go and asksomebody to play the role of a
senior program manager whohasn't been there and done that.
And there's a, there's a rolefor that and we need to keep
doing that.
But not everything needs.
It's kind of like noteverything needs the
sledgehammer, right.

(34:00):
Not everything needs that levelof expertise.
And so how do we skill up?
You know the rest of theorganization, so, when needed,
they know how to get from pointA to point B.
Because, after all, what is aproject I mean?
A project is, to me, it'ssimply the path from current
state to a better state.
I don't know a single businessleader who takes on a role,

(34:24):
joins an organization for thefirst time and says, oh, status
quo is just fine, no change isneeded.
You know that doesn't happen.
They come in and they've gotproblems.
They've got opportunities toseize and problems to fix.
Projects are the path to dothat.
So you got to figure it out andI think the PMO could be the
one to help do that.

Absolutely.
I think the PMO can be acatalyst for change, for
delivery, for all of thesethings and demonstrating by
leading by example.
It's so interesting because theexecutives themselves you're
right.
I have this discussion recentlywith a senior board member
that's been on numerous boardsacross the world and one of the
things I said to him is whydon't they teach board members

(35:04):
project management?
They all come from operationalbackgrounds.
There's companies out there oneof the companies I worked for
spent a billion dollars perannum on project management.
They all come from operationalbackgrounds.
There's companies out there oneof the companies I worked for
spent a billion dollars perannum on project management $1
billion per annum just onprojects so to change their
business.
But then they didn't spendanywhere near the amount of
money on actually training thepeople that had to receive the

(35:25):
change in the operational areasor even spend the time to help
them, to ask the projectmanagers the right questions to
keep them accountable.
They just got the changedelivered, thrown over the fence
and then operational teams hadto live with that and and try to
realize the benefits and soforth.
So I'm super, super passionateabout this and it's not
something often people talkabout, so I think it's a great

(35:47):
example.
It's interesting.
So, talking about projectmanagement in general, one of
the things I wanted to touch onis I know you talk a lot about
how well-formulated strategiesfail more often than not because
of the idea, but more due tomissing capabilities.
People misconstrue whatcapabilities mean.
They think it meanscapabilities of an individual.

(36:09):
Where I think capabilities isyour people, your process, your
tools.
More broad, we talk a lot aboutthat, but what do you think the
organizations most commonly arefalling short when it comes to
execution?

most commonly boy.
There's quite a quite a fewthere that I can think of, but I
would say, if I had to pick theone that they fall short on, I
would say kind of the moreoperational excellence and the
reason I say this and this mightnot be the answer that you were

(36:44):
thinking, thinking, but often Ithink organizations think of
operational excellence or youknow good business routines and
management routines as thedomain of manufacturing and they
don't think of you.
Know, if you're a serviceprovider, they don't think that
that applies to you, and I wouldsubmit that if that's the case,

(37:07):
then you are likely talkingabout the wrong things with the
wrong people at a time that'stoo late to do anything about it
, not using facts and data, butgut and intuition and you're
probably making bad decisions orpoor decisions, decisions that
you know that are leading youmaybe in a different direction
and you're probably slightlybehind the curve because you're

(37:30):
inefficient in how you areoperating.
And to me that is somethingthat I think, folks, this is
kind of like the projectmanagement topic.
It's just taken for granted thateverybody gets into a C-suite
role and just knows how to runtheir function, knows how to run
it all, and I find over andover again, people do not.

(37:50):
They may be subject matterexperts, they may be the best
person who's ever done logistics, they may be the best brand
manager ever, but they don'tnecessarily know how to harness
the power of their team, measurewhat matters, talk about what's
important, make betterdecisions and continuously
improve how they do what they do.

(38:11):
Those are things that aresecondary.
It's really more focused on thesubject matter, the domain, the
marketing, the logistics, thetransportation and kind of the
ecosystem that you need to putin place to effectively run a
team, a function, a departmentis taken for granted, and so

(38:37):
when I look at kind of the corefour capabilities that I look at
, I see that one as like forC-suite folks, that one gets the
least attention and I think itshould get the most attention,
to be honest right.

So we talked about change, we've talked about
operational and a little bitabout PMO.
From a strategic planningperspective, what do you think
organizations are getting wrong?
I feel that there's so muchtime spent on strategy because
it appears to be more fun andthen those plans seldom get

(39:12):
delivered and it's justcarryover from quarter to
quarter to quarter.
What do you think we're gettingwrong when it comes to strategy
formulation, strategy planning,and what's the advice you can
give to leaders that may be newto this space?

Great, great question.
So I would say I think thatthere's strategy development and
then there's strategic planning.
In my mind when I think aboutstrategy development, this is
the fun part.
This is the pie in the sky, theblue sky thinking.
Everybody loves that there's amillion consulting, that you can
pay millions of dollars to helpyou do that and bring you

(39:48):
outside in thinking.
Check, got it.
Not going to argue that that'snot valuable.
There is definitely value.
But the next step is thetranslation of all that fun,
sexy, futuristic stuff intosomething you can do something
about and you can action on.
And that's the gap that I see.

(40:08):
I see a gap between the bluesky pie you know, really
exciting, cool stuff and the dayto day.
What do we have to do today tomake our quarterly number?
That's like a short term goal.
There's nothing in between and,or worse, there's nothing that
bridges it all the way and makeswhat you're doing today make

(40:29):
any sense.
Right, what you're doing today,tomorrow, next month, next
quarter, should all be inservice of your strategy, and
what often I see is siloedstrategy, strategic planning,
function by function.
Okay, well, I got my goal, youknow.
Thank you very much.
And here's my world, here's myportion of it and these are my

(40:51):
strategic priorities.
These are my goals for the yearand I'm going to cascade to
them at my team hot dog right.
But what doesn't happen is thepull all the way from the big
strategy, the big initiatives,the big priorities and how you,
as a collective team, crossfunctional team, all have to

(41:11):
contribute to the achievement ofthe big, the big goals.
It looks something like I mean,I'm sure you're familiar with
OKRs.
It's kind of that's an old andyou know an old methodology
objective and key results.
I find that people can't evenfigure that out.
I mean, I'll be honest, I'm notgoing to name names, but very

(41:32):
recently I've had to facilitatesome serious working sessions to
get very senior leaders tounderstand the difference
between objective and a keyresult and how the linkage has
to make sense.
It has to tick and tie back tothe big goals.
Why are otherwise?
Why are you doing that?
Why are you doing that?
And and I'm sorry if it'sbecause you think it's what your

(41:55):
function should do, but it'sdisconnected from the larger
picture and the larger goals.
You know, I think that is anerror, that is a missed
opportunity, that's waste andthat needs to be reconciled back
with the larger you know thelarger strategy that has been
developed.
That's not to say things don'tchange and evolve, right?

(42:16):
I mean obviously the days of.
I mean, can you?
I mean you talked about 20years ago your career started
I'm a little bit.
I started more like 30 yearsago and I remember learning
about doing a 10-year plan andthen it became five-year and
look, now we're down to thequarter and so I do understand
speed is a component here and soyou can't spend.

(42:36):
You know months and months andmonths.
You know overanalyzing.
You do have to start to putthings on paper and get after
some things and course correctalong the way.
I believe that in some ways,strategic planning is a
continuous process and not anevent.
You're getting continuousfeedback as you implement new
things, as you make changes, asyou get new external feedback,

(42:59):
you should be constantlyre-evaluating is the strategy on
point still?
Do we need to make anadjustment?
Are the initiatives that aregoing to realize that strategy
the right ones?
And that should be a questionthat is asked quarter in,
quarter out, nonstop, becausethings are changing so fast, and
I can certainly appreciate that.

It's a really good point that continuous
feedback is something that'sundervalued.
I think one thing you said thatI see a lot of is the silo
thinking for strategy, and I getit there's.
You know, one department anddivision is different to another
, but the challenge is and Idon't know if you've seen this
before as well, but I found thatafter they spend all this time
developing their strategy andputting their plans together,

(43:43):
that you end up finding at leastin one one manufacturing
organization.
As an example, one team wasactually delivering a piece of
work, a significant piece ofwork, that actually was going to
undo a piece of work in anotherdivision.
Um, yeah, so all the time.

Yeah, so it's just all the time, all the time.
Yes, yes, yes.
And so that's where?
Um, that, that portfolio view,that the pm.
This is where pmo can come intoplay and really help create
that portfolio view.
Let's look at bodies of workthat are all thematically
related.
Are they really working inharmony, are they supportive of

(44:19):
each other, or are they workingat cross purposes, kind of
evaluating, zooming out andreally taking an evaluative look
?
I think a PMO is uniquelypositioned to do that because
they're unbiased.
They're not from any one ofthose functions.
None of those initiatives aretheir babies, right, and they're
beautiful and perfect, right.
So they're looking at it moreobjectively.

(44:41):
I think the PMO can play agreat role in providing that
analysis.

A hundred percent If it's got the I guess
the support, sponsorship,backing respect, because there
are some PMOs that are not doinga good job, that are making it
harder for everybody else butone of the things speaking of
programs and complexity andprocess, I'm interested to get
your thoughts on.
Let's say that there's someonelistening, running a complex

(45:07):
program or supporting a complexprogram.
They're low on resources, theydon't have the capacity to bring
in any additional resources andthey don't have the time to fix
everything.
What would you say would be thesort of two or three key focus
areas, if you were coming in torescue a program that maybe was
being challenged and you hadlimited resources?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I've been asked to rescueprojects, you know, many, many
times, and over the years I'veactually developed a I think
it's a 14 question questionnaire, a checklist if you will a
rescue project, rescue checklist.
And I use this to kind of helpme figure out where to start and
some of the elements on that,and it ranges between what I'll

(45:51):
call the kind of the hard skillsand the soft skills stuff, so
to speak.
Right, there are elements ofproject management that are, you
know, tangible.
You're like, do you have anyidea the why this project exists
?
Right, is there coalitionaround the purpose of it, the
objective and so kind of thatcharter work.

(46:13):
Right, to be honest, if you donothing getting clear on the
problem you're solving and thegoal and the definition of done,
I think of those, as, likethose early charter questions
you would ask, that's like 80%of it.
I mean, most of the time I seeprograms that are off track.
It's because you don't havealignment or agreement on that.

(46:34):
And why that's important isbecause you end up with scope
creep, too much work, becauseyou're not clear, you don't have
your eye on the prize, theprize is unclear.
So some of those common sinsthat you see, with projects
going off the rails, like scope,scope creep, are actually the
root causes upstream, back inthe definition of done, back in

(46:54):
the problem statement, back inthe goal statement.
So I start there give me thecharter, give me the goal
statement, give me the.
Give me the problem that youwere trying to solve in the
first place that justified theexistence of this program.
If that is not rock solid, superclear, unambiguous and totally
aligned by all the sponsors, youknow, time out, time out Right,

(47:17):
start there Risks and issuesmanagement.
I would say you go there next.
As people are doing theircontributions to a project right
, things come up, things happenright, and so teasing them out
in a proactive way, creating anenvironment where red is

(47:39):
embraced, yellow is embraced,right, we get rid of that fear
of reporting bad news early,early.
That's actually good news.
I would attack that next sothat you can problem solve more
rapidly.
And then the third thing I wouldattack is simply your
governance cadence.
Are you having conversationswith the sponsors frequently

(48:02):
enough and are you talking aboutthe right things?
Are you being candid?
Are you exposing the real deal,the real issues?
Uh, with the sponsors who cando something about it uh.
So your rhythms, your, yourgovernance and your rhythm uh,
business, uh, your managementroutines as it relates to the
program, I think would be thethird thing I would attack it

(48:23):
makes sense, because if any ofthose things are not being
focused on, it could make sensefor why the program or project
might be failing or headingtowards failure.

I think just educating people on fundamental
risks and issue management issometimes something that needs
to happen as a mandatory pieceas well, but that's a
conversation for another day.

I have done straight up risk management
one-on-one training too, evenjust getting people to
understand the differencebetween a risk and an issue.

Yes, yes, they don't get it.
Yes, yes, they don't get it.

I'm like a risk might happen.
An issue did happen.
Can we just keep it that simple?

Exactly, it's for the fundamentals.
Another question I had for youis if a leader is listening.
Today and obviously you'vespent a lot of time coaching,
mentoring and building teams ifa leader is listening and feels
like their team is stuck orthey're feeling overwhelmed, how
would you recommend that theysupport their team to, I guess,
get them unstuck?

In a project context or in a more team or or
functional context.

Yeah, more like in a team function.
You know more as a leader, youwant to do right by your team.
Your team feels a bitoverwhelmed, it feels a bit
stuck, and I guess you just needto figure out what exactly is
the problem and help them.
Maybe you're a new leader to anexisting team, like in your
acquisition example.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I I.
The first thing I do is I getreal curious right.
As a leader, my job at thatpoint it's not about judgment,
it's about getting curious.
So I generally will go stealthe best practices from
traditional root cause analysis,rca.

(50:04):
All right, what are the symptomsthat you're seeing?
What are the problems thatyou're feeling?
And then we have to start todig underneath.
Often this is a human conditionas well.
Humans aren't great atnaturally diagnosing the root
cause.
We see symptoms real well,that's easy, right, I'm feeling
this, I'm seeing this.
But it takes dialogue, it takescuriosity and it takes patients

(50:25):
to say, all right, I'm seeingthis, but it takes dialogue, it
takes curiosity and it takespatience to say, all right,
let's dig deeper.
Why did that happen?
I love it's such an old schooltool, but I love the five why?
Technique.
I love just continuing to probeand ask why?
Just enough times for them tokind of go oh, that's why this

(50:45):
is happening.
That's the problem.
I'm a big fan of coaching, nottelling.
So I also like to lead thewitness.
I like to ask really potentquestions.
I actually want my team toself-discover what the
opportunities are, to learn.
How did they get here.
I don't actually want in thecontext of leading a team, not

(51:08):
necessarily as a consultant, butas a team leader.
I actually want to enable myteam to be successful.
I'm not here to tell them whatto do.
That's management from adifferent decade, right.
I'm not interested in beingthat kind of a leader, but I do
want to grab them by the handand get them through the process

(51:29):
, facilitate that, ask potentquestions and help them
self-discover.
You know where might they bewasting their time?
Let's go.
You know, tell me about yourgoals and your priorities.
How are you spending your time?
And then, through that dialogueand that self-discovery, often
than not the employeeself-discovers the real issue.

(51:51):
They go okay, I see what it is.
I'm over-indexing on this andit's because I've had a bad
experience with that in the pastand that is unfair and it's
actually creating pressure onnot spending enough time on the
most important things.
So got it, I'm going to make apivot.
That, to me, is that's whatleadership is all about.

(52:13):
It is enabling, not doing forthem.

You've got to do that so that they can learn
and, as they say, you've got twoE's for a reason.
So leaders probably need tolisten more to be more effective
overall.
So we're almost at the end ofour conversation today, which
I've really enjoyed and I alwayssay this, but generally
speaking, genuinely speaking, Ithink we could talk a lot longer
.
My last question for you today,renee is there anything else

(52:40):
you'd like to share with ourlisteners, a call to action, a
piece of advice or a question toponder today?

Oh my, a call to action, a piece of advice or
a question to ponder today?
Oh my, that's a, that's aloaded one.
Um.
So when I think about leadinghigh performing teams, driving
strategic change, um, you know,uh, I.
I think about setting shared,you know, having a shared team
purpose with individualaccountability, right.
I think about leaders who pickgreat talent and then get the

(53:10):
heck out of the way, right andagain, be that coach or be that
enabler, that's the kind ofleaders, in fact, I just hosted
a leadership webinar today,specifically for female leaders,
and we talked about some of thebest practices of leadership,
talked about some of the bestpractices of leadership, and and
much of them was about it's notabout you, it's about your team

(53:35):
.
And you know, the days of youbeing successful on your own are
over when you take on theresponsibility of a leading and
building a high performing team.
And so I just encourage peopleto really embrace that role of
coach.
Embrace the role of I call itthe CMO, your chief marketing
officer of your team, right,meaning you are the best person
to tell the story of your team,to talk about the impact you're

(53:58):
having, steal a page fromconsultants and use, you know
many case studies.
What was the problem?
How bad was it?
What change did you implement?
And now, what are the results?
That's a powerful story thatyou can tell and showcase, to
brag about.
You know the accomplishments ofyour team, and only you can do
that as the leader, and so theseare some of the things that

(54:21):
have been on my mind lately, inparticular, about leading
high-performing teams.

Amazing.
Thank you, Renee, for all yourinsights.
I'll continue to follow yourjourney on LinkedIn, which I
will share in the show notes.
I'll also share and referencepeople to go to your website,
rsgconsultinggroup.
com to learn more about theconsulting work that you're
doing, which is no doubt goingto be very impactful based on
your experience over the years.
Be very impactful based on yourexperience over the years.

(54:48):
Thank you for your time todayand I look forward to continuing
our journey for following andsharing content and
collaborating more, because Ithink you share a lot of really
really clear insights that Idon't think people always put
front and center, particularlyaround like operational
excellence and also just thecatalyst that a PMO can be.
So it's very refreshing and Iappreciate your time today,

(55:10):
thank you so much for having me.

Likewise, the admiration is quite mutual.
I love your posts and I willcontinue to follow you and
engage via LinkedIn as well.
So thanks again for having me.

Thank you so much for listening to this
podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
date with all things Agile Ideas, go to our website, www.
agilemanagementoffice.
com.
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel or be inspired today

(55:43):
.
Until next time, what's yourAgile Idea?

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#164 | Navigating Strategic Transformation with Human Centred Change with Renee Giacalone

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#164 | Navigating Strategic Transformation with Human Centred Change with Renee Giacalone