September 24, 2025 • 51 mins
What happens when the person behind some of the world’s most recognisable personal brands realises she’s neglected her own?
In this deeply honest and inspiring episode, we’re joined by Carlii Lyon—former international publicist turned personal branding expert and author of Courage to Be. After building the profiles of global names like Miranda Kerr and other thought leaders, Carlii found herself feeling invisible during her maternity leave. That moment became the catalyst for a journey of reinvention, purpose, and intentional visibility.
We explore what personal branding really means—beyond LinkedIn profiles and follower counts—and how showing up with clarity, consistency, and purpose can transform your career and impact. Carlii breaks down why self-promotion doesn’t have to feel cringey when it’s connected to service, value, and your future self.
From the power of asking for what you want to the quiet confidence of body language and presence, this conversation offers practical strategies for becoming more visible without becoming performative.
Whether you’re looking to step into a new role, grow your influence, or simply feel more seen for the work you do—this episode will help you start small, but start meaningfully.
Tune in now, and remember: your future self is probably already telling you to go for it.
In this episode, I cover:
5:38 Calii Lyon’s Journey into Personal Branding
17:19 Understanding Personal Branding
31:54 Overcoming Self-Doubt and Criticism
43:57 The Power of Future Self Psychology
And more...
Check out Carlii's website, and look for her new book here: www.carliilyon.com
Connect with Carlii on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carliilyon/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fatimah Abbouchi (00:00):
You're listening to Agile Ideas, the
podcast hosted by FatimahAbbouchi.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm CEO, at AMO, mental HealthAmbassador and your host.
(00:24):
On today's episode we haveCarlii Lyon.
Carlii Lyon has been shaping thereputations of remarkable
individuals from across theglobe for over two decades.
As a former internationalpersonal publicist, her past
clients include world-leadingsupermodel Miranda Kerr, new
York Times bestselling authors,inventors, musicians and even a
(00:45):
British celebrity foot reader.
Today, Carlii is dedicated tohelping everyday individuals
shape their personal brandsconfidently, communicate their
value proactively, putthemselves out there and become
intentionally visible to theaudiences that matter.
Recognized as a thought leaderon the topic, Carlii has been
invited to speak to the teams oficonic brands internationally,
(01:08):
including the likes of theFinancial Times, Spotify,
Microsoft, virgin and L'Oreal,to name a few.
She's a regular contributor toForbes on the topic of personal
branding and has been featuredin Smart CEO Magazine, Sky News
and the Sunday Telegraph.
Please join me in welcomingCarlii to the show.
Welcome to the show.
Carlii Lyon (01:29):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Fatimah Abbouchi (01:32):
Let's start with one of the most important
questions Tell us about how yougot to where you are today, so
people can understand yourjourney and why you do what you
do.
Carlii Lyon (01:42):
So I launched my own PR consultancy at the young
age of 21, while I was studyingpublic relations.
So I think at that point I'mstill a very impatient person,
but I was especially impatientat that point and I just wanted
to go out and start being inbusiness.
So I launched my own PRconsultancy.
(02:05):
That was international.
I always specialized inindividual branding.
So my clients were alwaysindividuals thought leaders,
experts, authors, speakers,business leaders, et cetera and
I did that for many years andthat was an international role.
(02:25):
So it was my role as theirpersonal publicist to get their
story out into the world and,you know, manage all of their
media relations and do all ofthe wonderful things that a
public relations agent does.
So I did that for many yearsand then about I get my
(02:46):
timelines a little bit confusedbut about 10 to 15 years into it
I went on extended maternityleave.
So I went from this really fastpaced international PR
existence to being at home withtwo very busy, beautiful baby
boys under the age of two, whichwas a massive shift and change.
(03:08):
And the reason why I'm tellingyou all of that was that was
actually the moment that shapedthe next chapter of my journey,
because it was when I was onextended maternity leave that I
was confronted with the harshreality that in all of that time
telling all of those clientsstories and building their
(03:31):
personal brands, I'd never donethe same for myself.
I'd never stopped to thinkabout what was my personal brand
, what was I doing to elevate mypersonal brand?
And as a result of that, I wason extended maternity leave,
feeling very invisible, becausereally I had done that to myself
.
I had never made a point ofbeing out from behind the scenes
(03:55):
, so I definitely was invisible.
So at that point I thought well,if that's how I'm feeling, then
there's a really good chancethat other people are feeling
the same and perhaps there'ssomething in that I can help
them, you know, get, getthemselves out there and build a
personal brand.
So that's what has launched meinto the, the world of work that
(04:17):
I'm doing now, which iscoaching individuals and
executives on their personalbrand and also, more importantly
, going into organizations allover the world and talking about
this concept of personal brandand building influence.
And I've had the privilege ofworking with some of the biggest
brands all over the world.
You know I'm lucky to countcompanies like the Financial
(04:40):
Times, Volvo, l'oreal, asclients of mine, and it's always
fascinating to me notsurprising, but fascinating that
you know I'm working with someof the smartest individuals in
the world, working with some ofthe biggest brands in the world,
and they've never thought abouttheir personal brand.
Fatimah Abbouchi (04:59):
So interesting .
I want to go back to the firstthing you said, which really 21
and started your own business.
That's that's to the firstthing you said, which really 21
and started your own business.
That's that's like the life ofan entrepreneur being courageous
to take that first risk.
How did you know where to startwhen you decided to make that
shift Like for those listeninggoing, I want to start a
business.
(05:20):
What was the first things thatyou looked at or considered?
How did you decide I?
Carlii Lyon (05:26):
don't, don't really know.
I mean, I look back at thattime and, of course, there are
so many things that I cringe at.
You know what I did at thatpoint.
I didn't know what I was doingand at 21 I always looked much
older than I was, which wasgreat in your 20s, not so great
(05:46):
in your 40s, right.
But the other thing, Fatimah,that is, I think, important to
point out, is I am also a highschool dropout.
So I left school at 15, spentquite a few years hairdressing,
went back to school and finishedmy HSC, or back to TAFE to
finish my HSC.
So I was out in the world ofwork for several years before I
(06:14):
then got into college to studyPR, and I think that real world
experience gave me theconfidence to start my own
business and gave me theconfidence to, you know, put
myself out there.
I wasn't a student comingstraight out of uni and not
really knowing how to haveconversations or deal with
(06:37):
people that were much older thanme.
So the combination of melooking older than I was plus I
had more maturity because ofreal world experience, combined
with my impatience, thinking Ican do this better than what my
college professors or teachersand how they were presenting
themselves.
So I just launched myself outthere and I remember when I
(07:00):
pitched for one of my firstclients, they asked me you know,
so do you have.
Because in PR, and especially atthat point in time, it was all
about your contacts, it was allabout the relationships you had,
especially with the media.
And they said so, do you havegood contacts and good
relationships with the media?
And I remember sitting there,going absolutely, absolutely Did
(07:22):
I.
No.
However, I was so determined.
All I needed was an opportunityand I worked around the clock
to make sure I got thosecontacts and I made sure my
client got the the mediacoverage that I knew that they
could.
So, yeah, that that was how ithappened at that point that's
(07:43):
amazing, I think, um, weshouldn't underestimate that.
Fatimah Abbouchi (07:46):
And what was going through my mind as you
were saying that is you know thescrew it, let's do it.
Richard Branson quote, which isexactly what he did, and 100%
agree.
You typically don't know whatyou're doing when you're
starting off in business, andanyone that says they do, unless
they may be taking over afamily business, really would be
lying.
So what an incredible story.
I can resonate with you aboutcoming off maternity leave as a
(08:11):
mum of a one and a half year old, so congratulations on your
boys.
But how did you like thinkingabout that moment where you
realised that you hadn't donefor yourself what you were doing
for clients?
It's like the example of thehairdresser who hasn't hasn't
done the hair yeah becauseeverybody else's hair amazing
yeah when you think aboutbranding in general like for
(08:32):
those that are listening thatdon't really understand that,
because I know the comments thatI would normally hear is people
don't want to put themselvesout there because they're not
salesy or they don't feelcomfortable.
Can you just simplify it for us?
What is brand and what ispersonal brand?
Why is this so important?
Carlii Lyon (08:47):
So, firstly, going back to that moment where I
recognized that I didn't have apersonal brand, that to me is
very much the situation that alot of individuals find
themselves in because they'vemade, and not so much now.
I mean that was seven years agoand the world in seven years
has changed dramatically.
I think when people hear theterm personal brand, there is
(09:11):
the automatic association withsocial media and the term itself
has really become part of thezeitgeist.
Like we really know what apersonal brand is, we know the
purpose of a personal brand and,because we've all had to get
more comfortable with socialmedia, we understand what it is.
(09:33):
Not to say that there's stillnot confusion around well, what
do I do and how do I do it, andwhat's the real definition of a
personal brand.
But back at that point, when Iwas confronted with the fact
that I hadn't done anythingaround my personal brand, I
think I had bought into the ideathat, well, you have to reach a
(09:55):
certain level in your life andcareer for you to be qualified
as needing to worry about yourpersonal brand.
So for a lot of people thatmeans, oh, I'll think about my
personal brand when I'm the CEOof a company, or I'll think
about my personal brand when andif my role becomes more
(10:16):
external and maybe I have to goand do panel events or go on the
speaking circuit, or, yes,maybe if I have to get on social
media and create some sort ofcontent strategy, that's when
I'll think about it.
My definition of a personalbrand is that it's the way an
individual presents and packagesthemselves for a purpose, and I
(10:39):
always say, whether you'revisible to one person or 1
million people, ultimately, atthe heart of what a personal
brand is, it's about beingintentional about how you're
showing up in that moment, inwhatever and on whatever
platform that you're showing up.
So I don't want people toautomatically assume that a
(11:02):
personal brand is their LinkedInprofile.
Yes, is that an extension ofyour personal brand?
Is that a platform where youcommunicate your personal brand?
Absolutely.
But to me, and what I like totalk about, a personal brand is
much deeper.
It's thinking aboutintentionally who you want to be
, how you want to show up, whyyou're saying the things you're
(11:24):
saying, how you're saying thethings you're saying.
It's a deeper conversation thanjust what your LinkedIn profile
says about you.
Fatimah Abbouchi (11:36):
And you know it's uncomfortable as well.
I'm sure you deal with a lot ofclients that probably maybe
they have made a significantshift in their career or life
and they realize that they, likeyourself, at that point, need
to focus more on their brandwhat do you say to people who
are not feeling reallycomfortable with the idea of it
or maybe think that it's aboutself-promotion or what what is
(12:00):
the advice you could give thosepeople?
So?
Carlii Lyon (12:03):
I would always say everyone is in the business of
being themselves.
That's just full stop.
Everyone's in the business ofbeing themselves.
And what I believe personalbranding does is it's
essentially saying well, it'sgetting into the business of
being good at promoting yourself.
Does everyone like the idea ofself-promotion?
(12:24):
No, but I would say to thosepeople who feel uncomfortable
with the idea is, the moreyou're able to link your
visibility and influence topurpose and impact, then the
easier it becomes.
So what I mean by that is ifyou can see how becoming visible
and building more influence isultimately going to add value
(12:46):
and serve other people, then allof a sudden, not only is your
approach going to be different,so it's.
You're not standing or comingfrom a position of you know, how
do I get out of this audience?
How do I?
You know, how do I look reallygood in front of this audience?
You're coming from a place ofhow do I serve this audience?
How can I add value to thesepeople, to this team, to this
(13:09):
person?
So it's a completely differentmindset, it's a completely
different energy space, and Iwould say to those people who
feel uncomfortable with the ideaof self-promotion to get into
that space, to really start tothink about well, when you are
visible and when you're able tobuild more influence, what
(13:31):
impact is that going to have?
And and focus on that, focus onthat we need.
You know, when I think back towhy I got into PR in the first
place, at that point in time Iwas really passionate about and
I still am about wellness andpersonal development, and so a
(13:51):
lot of my clients were in andfrom that space of wellness and
personal development and what Iwas driven to do was to be able
to use their stories to changethe impact that the media had on
the lives of the people thatwere following the media.
And especially when you thinkback 20 years ago, the media.
(14:14):
There were less platforms wherewe were getting our information
, so the impact of thoseplatforms had, you know, a much
greater, a much greater impacton our lives.
You know, a much greater impacton our lives.
You know we'd read the SundayTelegraph and the story in there
.
So I always thought, well, if Ican use the media in a positive
way and I can share positivestories to have a more positive
(14:37):
influence, then of course that'swhat I want to do Now in the
world that we live in, when youthink about where we get our
information and all of thedifferent platforms and people
that we are influenced by.
I mean to me, now I see myselfas being a person out in the
(14:59):
world to inspire moreindividuals to get out there to
be positive influencers, becausewe need that in the world right
now.
We really need that in theworld right now.
So that's what I would say tothose people who are feeling
uncomfortable about it.
Yes, I know most people lookout for example, I hear it all
the time.
They look out onto LinkedIn andthey go, oh, I just don't want
(15:21):
to be that person, I don't wantto be seen as that person.
And, yes, maybe some of it'snoise to you, but, as they say,
what's noise to one person ismusic to another.
So just focus on the peoplethat you want to be music to.
Fatimah Abbouchi (15:41):
Basically, that's really well said.
I think you hit the nail on thehead talking about the value.
Like you know, what I would useis value, and I think that the
value that people can provide,as opposed to, like you sort of
said, it's not.
It's not.
It's not being cringy and beingself-promoting in a way that
doesn't drive value.
(16:01):
It's actually providing valuein a way that doesn't drive
value.
It's actually providing value.
I think something that peopleoften miss, are misguided by, is
that you don't want to waituntil a point in time where you
think you might need so.
For example, one of the thingsthat's going through my head is
there might be people out therethat may come to you and say,
look, I don't know where tostart.
I want to build my brand andmaybe they've further progressed
(16:22):
in their career.
What are the benefits that cancome from having time and energy
spent towards your as you said,your personal brand?
Carlii Lyon (16:32):
When you're really clear on what you're putting out
into the world, then thechances of you attracting things
, people, places andopportunities that are going to
resonate with who you want to beand what you want in your life
are far greater.
And you know, I only had thisconversation yesterday with an
(16:54):
executive who was trying to workout, well, what does this whole
personal branding thing mean toher?
And she wasn't necessarilyinterested in creating a robust
following on social media oranything like that, and I
explained to her that by beingreally clear and intentional on
(17:14):
what her personal brand was.
It's not necessarily aboutdoing more, so in that case, not
necessarily I'm not going to betelling her to go on LinkedIn
and start creating a contentstrategy or get on the speaking
circuit or whatever, but it'sabout doing the things that
(17:36):
you're already doing, but doingthem intentionally.
So I'll give you an example,and what I shared with her was
perhaps by getting clear on herpersonal brand, how she wanted
to position herself and what shewanted to be remembered for in
terms of areas of expertise andskills.
Perhaps by just being clear onthat when she is next in
(17:58):
meetings or she has anopportunity to meet a person who
actually could be reallypivotal in her career or open
doors for her, just by beingclear on what it is she wants to
be remembered.
By then that's going to changewhat she says, how she presents
her ideas, because she'll comeat it perhaps with an angle
(18:24):
that's more aligned to who shewants to be, rather than just
whatever comes to mind.
And some people would argue oh,Carlii, that just feels like so
much effort and you know, somuch extra mind share,
constantly thinking, and so itfeels like it's a performance.
(18:46):
Well, I would argue that, yes,maybe in the beginning it feels
like a lot of effort to sit downand think about this is who I
am and this is how I want to beremembered and these are the
things I want to attract and theopportunities I want to, you
know, align myself with.
(19:07):
And yes, so that's where effortmay lie.
But I actually believe afterthat it becomes a bit of plug
and play, because you can, youjust all will automatically all
become habitual to startspeaking to who you want to be.
Fatimah Abbouchi (19:25):
And does this tie into something you talk
about, which is the power offuture self psychology?
So, thinking about that, canyou explain that, that term,
because I think this is relevantto what you just said?
Carlii Lyon (19:37):
I didn't even know that there was an area of
psychology like.
There actually is an area ofpsychology called future self
psychology and there are a fewkey pioneers in that space that
I follow and I've I've read upon and looked into the research
of, and future self psychologyessentially is the idea of
(20:00):
tapping into the power of yourfuture self and really starting
to think about who that personwill be.
And there's one gentleman inparticular, dr Hal Hirschfield,
who actually delivered anamazing TED Talk on this and
wrote a book on this, and in oneof his research studies they
(20:22):
got a group of students togetherand for every student they
created a digital avatar andthen invited them to go into
this virtual reality.
And so you see these students.
You actually see it as part ofhis TED Talk, you see these
students go into this virtualreality.
One half of the students weregiven a digital avatar that
(20:43):
looked like who they were today,so just a weird version of
themselves.
The other half of the studentswere given a digital avatar that
looked like them, but digitallyenhanced in a way that it was
them in 40 years time.
And so, again, you see them gointo this world At the end of
their journey into the virtualreality.
(21:05):
They were asked a series ofquestions and in this case, the
series of questions were relatedto financial decision-making.
And what they found was thatthe students that went into the
virtual reality and sawthemselves in 40 years time and
obviously in that momentrecognize that the person
they're going to be is not theperson they are today.
(21:26):
It's a completely separateperson to them.
Their decisions were verydifferent.
So they committed to saving 20to 30% more than the students
who saw themselves as who theywere today.
So by really recognizing thatwho we're going to be in the
(21:47):
future is a totally differentperson, like him or her are
going to live the consequencesof our decision today and
they're a completely differentperson.
And we can really use that toour advantage.
And I always say to people youknow, you've got your future
(22:08):
self.
Imagine using your future selfas a mentor in those moments
when you're feeling unsure orscared of putting yourself out
there.
Imagine just taking a moment tosit, close your eyes and think
about okay, what would my futureself say to me right now, and
(22:28):
really see it, whether it's the90-year-old version of yourself,
whether it's the 50-year-oldversion, whatever feels more
real and powerful to you, like,what would he or she say to you?
And I've asked that question tocountless audience members and
I always put them on the spotand I say you know, you've been
(22:51):
given this opportunity.
You're scared, you're worried,what would your future self say
to you?
And every single time it's justgo for it, just do it, it's
going to be okay.
And, like it always gives megoosebumps when, when the
audience, when you know whoeverI've asked says that, because
our future selves always say thesame things Just go for it,
(23:11):
just do it.
So there's so many ways thatand I encourage everyone
listening to do some researcharound future self psychology
because it's fascinating, it'sreally fascinating.
Fatimah Abbouchi (23:24):
I didn't.
I mean, I've spent a lot oftime working with psychologists
over the years and stuff in themental health but didn't
actually know that that was anarea.
Carlii Lyon (23:32):
So I was definitely going to look into that.
It's amazing.
Fatimah Abbouchi (23:35):
Yeah, it's fascinating, but I can resonate
with something specifically yousaid.
I remember about 10 years ago,early on in my business, I was
going to have a conversationwith someone that I was
absolutely dreading because Ihad to let them go, and I
remember the coach at the timethat I was working with asked me
to put myself in the situationat the point of doing that
(23:55):
difficult conversation and alsoimagining how it felt afterwards
, and it was a conversation thatI envisaged so many times
exactly as you described, andwas able to then do it with a
clearer mind.
Carlii Lyon (24:06):
And so I can definitely attest to that.
Fatimah Abbouchi (24:10):
It's a great strategy.
I'm going to say what I think alot of people will say, and so
I can definitely attest to that.
I'm going to say what I think alot of people will say and
they're going to say.
But how do I overcome myself-doubt?
How do I deal with therejection?
Or, in my case, you knowsometimes you get criticism on
your social content or you knowyou're doing a talk.
How do I overcome that?
Like?
What strategies can I put inplace?
Carlii Lyon (24:33):
You know, from my personal perspective and also
having watched many clients gofrom I don't want to do it, I'm
too scared to really leaninginto it and just going for it.
The biggest and most powerfulmindset shift you can have is
(24:55):
understanding and appreciatingand almost expecting you will
get criticism, you will getrejection, you all of those
things are par for the course.
Those things are par for thecourse and I think the when you
really accept that, then you'renot surprised by it.
(25:23):
So if you're standing in aplace of okay, I'm going to do
this, I will be criticized, Iwill get disapproval, I will
will.
Will You're not then comingfrom a place of what can I do to
make sure I'm not criticised?
What can I do to make sure I'mnot rejected?
Instead, it's yeah, I will 100%get rejected, yeah, I'm going
to get rejected.
I think that in and of itselfcan change the game.
(25:49):
That in and of itself canchange the game.
Another mindset shift is and Ithis was just this came up in a
coaching session this morningwith a client who admitted that
they always like to be the niceperson, they want to be the
person that's liked by everyone,and I said to them okay.
(26:12):
So just looking at the niceversion of you, the one that you
really, you know, try to showup as so that everyone will like
you, do you think thateverybody likes that version of
you?
And they were like.
No, and I said so.
The version of you that you'retrying so desperately to hold on
(26:35):
to and to keep emulatingbecause you think that's the
version of you that everyone'sgoing to like, even that version
of you, not everyone likes.
So you know there's no winningwhen you come from a place of
not wanting to be liked byeveryone, wanting to be accepted
(26:56):
by everyone and wanting to notbe rejected by anyone.
There's no way you're going towin.
So that's my honest feedback.
There's no way getting aroundthat and you have to.
I always say pick your poison.
You either sit in the andremain in the sidelines not
(27:18):
doing the things you want to dobecause you're afraid of all
those things, or you get inthere like everyone else who's
in there and just accept thatthat's par for the course and
you decide which has the greaterupside, sitting there in that
place of self for the course,and you decide which has the
greater upside, sitting there inthat place of self-doubt and
scared of doing it, versusgetting out there knowing that
those things are going to come,but actually the upside is so
(27:41):
much better than the otheroption it's the, it's the saying
.
Fatimah Abbouchi (27:46):
You know, you're damned if you do, and
you're damned if you don't.
So might as well have fun doingit.
Carlii Lyon (27:51):
It really is the.
It really really is the truthyou really are, and I would, the
more that you do put yourselfout there and the more that you
experience it and live throughit like it's not as terrible as
perhaps you thought it was goingto be.
(28:12):
It's just, it is what it is.
And then you also put it inperspective.
So that rejection that I mayhave got or you may have got for
the who at that point, at thatperson rejected you, you're
forgotten already, like you candecide to hold on to it and
ruminate over it and make it areally big deal, but the person
(28:35):
who's rejected you or the personwho's criticized you, they are
no longer thinking about you.
They're on to the next thing, orthey're thinking about
themselves 100% and you knowthey say that.
Fatimah Abbouchi (28:46):
Those that are online criticizing others, you
know it's more about them, areflection on what their life
and what they're going through,and you have to have empathy for
those people as opposed to you.
Know you getting on with thingsand doing the things that make
you happy and living your lifeand meeting your goals and and
building your career andwhatever it is that you know you
want to do.
So I think that I like that.
(29:08):
I think it's hard sometimeswhen you're in the, in the
spotlight, even hosting apodcast, for example, um and
working in in the space wherepeople will see things that you
put on on social.
So I think it really resonatesthat you, just as you said, you
just have to accept it willhappen, as opposed to avoid it
from happening because you'renever going to please everyone.
Carlii Lyon (29:31):
You are never going to please everyone, and it will
happen, and it's just.
It's.
Yeah, it's par for the course.
It's the the price of entry,it's the price of entry.
So if you don't want all ofthose things, then the.
Fatimah Abbouchi (29:48):
You then decide what, what that price is
it's the price, um, of you know,the fear of the unknown or not
doing what you want, and then,as you said, looking at yourself
in 40 years time and going.
I regret not doing this and Iregret not doing that because I
was, I was scared about you know, some rando giving me some
negative feedback or commentaryor something that you know have
(30:09):
absolutely appearing on yourlife.
So hopefully it drives some, uh, I guess some confidence to
just accept it is what it is andjust moving and moving forward
I am.
I know that you've got, um,you've got a book coming out
shortly, um, so tell us aboutwhy this book and why now and
(30:29):
then I've got some questionsabout some of the content of the
book that, um, I can't wait toread perfect.
Carlii Lyon (30:35):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited.
Uh, it feels like you've justyou've got a year and a half
year old baby.
So this, um, this book, is mythird child and it feels like
the birthing process has beentwo years.
So I'm so excited to give birthto this book in September,
(30:57):
which, I believe, by the time wewe this conversation, is out.
So the book is called Courage toBe.
The subtitle is Small Steps fora Big Life and it really is
just about helping people findthe courage to be who they want
to be and to put themselves outthere.
And the way that I've writtenthe book.
(31:20):
It's a series of short stories,chapters, and it's broken into
three sections of mind, body andbrand.
And from my perspective assomeone who's living and
breathing and talking aboutpersonal branding, those three
(31:40):
areas when you can get thosethree areas and you work towards
having those three areas reallyaligned to who you want to be,
that's where the magic happens.
So, mind being, you know.
Mindset, being able toinfluence yourself and your own
thinking and actions.
Body, really recognizing andunderstanding and appreciating
(32:06):
You've got this amazing vehicleto use to bring your dreams and
ideas alive in this physicalrealm.
So using that to the best ofyour advantage.
And then brand understandingthat people are not mind readers
.
And especially today, becauseof the digital era that we're
(32:29):
living in, we've got this realpowerful opportunity to tell
people who we are and what wewant and what we stand for and
really open ourselves up toattracting opportunities, and I
think by not doing that, you'rereally leaving so many things on
the table.
Fatimah Abbouchi (32:49):
It's really exciting because I think the
three things together I can justsee them intertwining are so
important, and I think we'vetouched a little bit on mindset.
But the part of it that I thinkreally I'm keen to get into a
bit more is the body and thenbrand.
But before we do that, what wasthe most, I guess, surprising
(33:10):
thing about this two-year babygrading book journey?
Because, as myself and othersare probably keen to do that
themselves.
So is there anything thatreally surprised you or, I guess
, something that really stoodout during that journey?
Carlii Lyon (33:32):
two biggest lessons that I learned in the whole
process of writing the book, youknow, and getting it to the
point now where it's nearlyready to to be put out into the
world.
The first one was how importantit is to have a really clear
outline.
So, before you even considerwriting of writing the book,
write the proposal, and that'sgoing to force you to really
(33:54):
think about who is this book for, why is it different?
You know how are you going topresent your ideas in a way
that's cohesive and compellingand all the rest of it.
So taking the time and spendinga lot of time on that framework
, if you like, first is reallypowerful.
(34:16):
It's going to save you so muchtime.
And then, secondly, my mentor.
I started writing the book and Ijust kept getting blocked,
blocked, couldn't like.
I just I would write it.
Then I didn't.
You know it wasn't right.
And and my mentor said, justwrite the book with one person
(34:38):
in mind.
Imagine that you're writing thebook for one person.
And the person that I decidedto write the book for was my
past self.
So I wrote the book for theversion of me that was on
extended maternity leave,feeling lost, invisible, unsure
(34:58):
of what the next chapter of hercareer would look like terrified
about putting herself out there.
And so I wrote the book withher in mind, and the moment I
did that, it just it.
Everything started to flowbecause I knew what she needed,
I knew what kind of book wouldhelp her, and it was actually
(35:21):
really easy to do.
Fatimah Abbouchi (35:23):
After I got into that mind space, how, how,
how incredibly beneficial was itfor you to um, to take that
moment and think about, like yousaid, an individual and then
yourself, because you've gonethrough this journey, so you now
don't want others to have to gothrough the challenges that you
had.
So I think it's incredibly, umpowerful to think of it that way
(35:45):
and therefore go back to whatwe said earlier you're not
trying to appease everyone andyou know, everything and
everyone which you know meansyou, please, no one.
But yeah, one of the things that, um, I'm curious about is, when
you think about, um, the factthat you had to spend the time
thinking about your past selfand yeah, and getting to the
(36:06):
point of of writing where, howand where did you get, I guess,
feedback along the way to letyou know you're on the right
track?
Or is that through the coachthat you had that was supporting
you through the journey?
Carlii Lyon (36:22):
I engaged a book coach, so that was my mentor,
who my mentor has been inpublishing all his life.
He's in his seventies.
He was the managing director ofa global publishing house, so
he had a lot of experience, hasa lot of experience.
But I did also engage a bookcoach who also has amazing
(36:46):
credibility in the publishingspace and she walked me through.
So I would send her three orfour chapters at a time and she
would give her feedback on eachof those chapters.
And the way that I wrote thebook I think was perfect for me.
I have a whole new appreciationfor people who have an idea and
(37:08):
are able to write a whole bookabout that idea and it be
cohesive and logical and amazing.
I don't know how they do that,but the way that I wrote the
book was in small standalonechapters which made sense
together but they didn't flow onfrom one another.
So it's a different writingstyle.
I had a a book coach, then itwent to an editor, then it went
(37:33):
to a proofreader and so you,there is a whole team involved
in getting a book to the stagewhere it's actually out on
shelves.
Uh, so yeah, that's how.
That's how I did it along theway it's a really exciting.
Fatimah Abbouchi (37:49):
I'll make sure I share a link to the book and
I can't wait to get a copy.
So I'll stay tuned for that.
Tell me.
You talk about physicalpractices in the book, which
I've asked.
Dan, what's physical practice?
Tell me about physicalpractices.
Carlii Lyon (38:05):
Well, there's lots of different physical practices
and we really we underestimate.
Well, maybe we don'tunderestimate, but maybe
sometimes we don't pay enoughattention to how impactful our
body, our physical presence, canbe in terms of interact when we
interact with others, and alsohow we can use our physical
(38:29):
presence and our body toinfluence ourselves, and so I
share lots of different ideas inthat area and how to use your
body to, you know, change theway you're thinking and feeling.
There's a lady by the name ofDr Amy Cuddy who wrote a book
(38:52):
called Presence.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that.
Yes, I've heard of it, yes andshe especially talks about how
we can use our body language toimpact our thoughts and feelings
.
So there's one part of the bookthat talks about that.
You know, using your bodylanguage to impact your thoughts
and feelings.
(39:12):
There are, you know, how wecharisma is part of when we
think of someone who'scharismatic, and you know how do
we use our bodies to be morecharismatic the tone of our
voice, our eye contact, smiling.
(39:33):
You know smiling.
All the research around smilingand here's the funny thing about
smiling is, as women especially, we've been told, don't smile
too much, and I had aconversation with one of the
world's leading experts in bodylanguage and his advice to women
is when you're dealing with men, powerful men or someone in a
(39:57):
powerful position, match theirsmiling their rate of smiling.
So if they're smiling, you smile, but don't smile too much.
So there's all of thiscommentary around you know, not
smiling too much, but then theresearch around smiling.
You know not smiling too much,but then the research around
smiling.
You know it's been shown tomake you look younger, more
(40:18):
attractive, more memorable, Like.
There's all these beautifulthings about smiling that I
think we should be aware of.
And when I learned or readabout all of the research around
smiling, this is just oneexample of how to use your body
to shift your brand and and yourpersonal brand.
But when I read about theresearch around smiling, as
(40:43):
children, we smile up to 400times a day.
Guess what the number is, whatit drops down to as an adult?
Fatimah Abbouchi (40:53):
I'm sure I've come across this somewhere.
Is this like in the 20s?
Carlii Lyon (40:56):
Yes, Like how sad is that it's so sad.
Fatimah Abbouchi (41:01):
It's really sad, it really is, it really is.
We're so distracted, we're sobusy, we're so overwhelmed,
we're so burnt out.
You know there's so much goingon, like the pressure, the
deadlines, the digital noiseeverything gets drowned out and,
like I said, you simply forgetthe small things like that that
can make a big shift to yourmood and how you're feeling that
(41:25):
day.
We get taught a lot about thatin the work that Beyond Blue
does and their research withmental health.
One of the things that Ilearned through that is like if
you act as if you're happy oryou know, obviously depending on
no serious situation going onfor you but if you're anxious
and you act as if you're happy,your mind tricks itself into
(41:48):
making you feel that you are.
And I think if you smile Idon't know if the research you
came across to this, but if yousmile, it might make yourself
feel that you're happier andmake you happier in the long run
.
Carlii Lyon (42:00):
Yeah, so it's amazing, it's amazing.
Fatimah Abbouchi (42:04):
And then I wanted to touch on briefly, you
know, go back to the brandingside.
One of the things that I'm keento know is, like I myself, like
many are all over social media.
You're constantly sharingcontent articles, posts, blogs,
whatever but how do you standout in like a crowded space,
like, how do you claim yourspace from a brand perspective?
Carlii Lyon (42:28):
Yeah, Well, I think it's important to identify what
your definition of standing outis and why that's so important,
fatima is.
I think a lot of peopleautomatically associate vanity
metrics to standing out.
(42:49):
So their measurement of I'mstanding out is I'm getting more
followers, I'm getting morelikes, and I think that's and
especially now that we'veentered the age of AI and we're
seeing a lot more peoplecreating content on social media
(43:10):
, especially because they can,and it's all automated and you
know that's a whole otherconversation.
But it's getting noisier andnoisier and the idea of
measuring through vanity metricsalone, I think, is not the
(43:31):
right path to take.
It's about quality overquantity and the measurement
should be who am I actuallyreaching and are they the people
that I want to reach?
And if you are reaching thepeople you want to reach, then
to me that's a really good signthat you're standing out in the
(43:52):
right way.
Because a lot of people willsay you know how do I stand out?
How do I?
Well, often they're measuringit by, but I'm not getting more,
you know, followers, I'm notgetting more likes, so then I'm
not standing out.
But actually, if we take thataway and we look at who are you
(44:12):
reaching and what are theirperceptions of you.
What are they getting from youin terms of if you ask them to
relay to you what your messageis and what your purpose is, and
if they're able to do thatclearly and you are standing up?
Fatimah Abbouchi (44:31):
It's a really good point and I think it would
also make sense if others aretelling people, if those people
are telling others about you aswell, because obviously
something in your message or,yes, scary and all of that.
So I think that's a that's agood mission.
But I I agree with your pointaround the vanity metrics,
because there's people out thereonline every day that are, you
(44:51):
know, nasty or narcissistic, oryou know just putting other
people down, that are you know,nasty or narcissistic, or you
know just putting other peopledown, that are getting thousands
of followers and likes andcomments and on their stuff it
doesn't make them, you know, anexpert in anything or a good
person.
So, you're right, it's probablynot the right metric and it's
interesting how some of theplatforms have removed, you know
, the likes and things like that.
So, yeah, I think that's somegood context and I think it's
(45:17):
how people remember you and whatthey remember you for, which I
think really would help peopleto make those connections you
talked about, because I used tothink branding was all about,
you know, just marketing andgetting your face out there and
all that, but there's so muchmore to it, as you talked about
before that I think you'veprobably unpacked here for
people today.
Carlii Lyon (45:39):
Well, thank you, I hope I have.
And look, you know, there's nodenying that reach.
We want to get out to newpotential customers and we want
that exposure because thatexposure can often lead to
opportunity, that exposure,because that exposure can often
lead to opportunity.
(46:00):
But again, it's just, I don'tthink it's about being realistic
, but it's just being focused.
Focused in the right areas forthe right reasons.
Because if you were to doresearch around, you know how to
create a viral post on LinkedInor Instagram you will probably
find a formula that willautomatically increase your
(46:22):
engagement and your numbers andall the rest of it.
But the question then would beis it sending the message that
you want to send?
Is it sending it in a waythat's truly aligned with who
you are and the experiencethey're going to have when
working with you and yourcompany?
(46:43):
And are they the right people?
You know, just the other week Ihad a post go crazy on LinkedIn
and the reality is it didn'treach all of the right people
necessarily.
So you know what I mean.
It's like that wasn't the metricof success for me.
The metric of success is am Igetting people reaching out to
(47:06):
me that are the right kind ofqualified people that I want to
work with.
That's how you read it, and theonly way you're going to get
that is by really leaning intoyour real voice, your real
message, your real point ofdifference.
How do you get to the point ofgetting clear on what that is?
(47:29):
Mm-hmm, well, it's.
You know.
It's time, effort, work,self-reflection, you know, and
there's no doubt, working withexperts who can help you perhaps
articulate and ask you theright questions that are going
to unlock the right answers.
There's real value in that, butit's it's making sure that
(47:52):
whatever you end up putting outinto the world feels very
aligned to who you are and whatyou want.
Fatimah Abbouchi (48:01):
And being able to back it up, I guess because
there's a lot of content goingout there and then you have to
interview someone and you askthem about all the things that
they've been and they've got noidea Exactly.
It happened to me recently.
I just thought it a reallyrelevant timing for that one.
So so, um, you know, in kind oftowards our closing of today,
(48:21):
um, how can you, or what's onesmall step if you know I'm
someone listening who's beenplaying small, waiting for the
right moments like what's onesmall step that you'd recommend
I can take if I wanted toimprove my presence and my brand
?
Carlii Lyon (48:38):
One small step.
I would say one small step totake is to ask someone for
something.
So what I mean by that is asksomeone for a favor, ask someone
for an introduction.
So the ask has to be related tohelping you get something that
(49:05):
you want in terms of careerprogression, becoming more
visible, like having anopportunity to showcase who you
are and your skills.
Just ask, make a commitmentthis week to ask one person for
(49:25):
something and if you can getcomfortable at asking, pitching,
seeking opportunities, that inand of itself is going to create
a dramatic shift in yourpersonal brand and your personal
brand journey, because at theheart of the results that I'm
(49:48):
sure everyone's hoping to getfrom having a personal brand,
from being more visible, at theheart of it is having the
courage to ask for what you want.
Fatimah Abbouchi (49:59):
And going back to that lovely title of your
book, so very resonating, Ican't wait to share it.
I've enjoyed.
I know it's a little bitdifferent for us in terms of
some of the conversations wehave on here, so I really
thought this would be impactfulfor those maybe similar to
ourselves having a business, ormaybe you know myself having a
(50:19):
corporate background, and reallyall of these messages are
relevant, whether you're anentrepreneur, whether you are a
corporate career ladder climbingperson, whether you're, you
know, just a stay-at-home momthat's currently thinking about,
you know, growing your networkand your opportunities as well.
Our last question for you today, Carlii, is if there's anything
you'd like to share with ourlisteners, a call to action, a
(50:41):
piece of advice or a question toponder today.
Carlii Lyon (50:45):
Well, I would love given I have been giving, or at
least pregnant with, this bookidea and this book for so long,
I would love them to check outthe book.
Buy this book for so long.
I would love them to to checkout the book.
Buy the book If it resonates.
Uh, you can download a freechapter on my website so you can
get a sense of if it is goingto resonate and if it is
(51:08):
something you want to invest in.
Fatimah Abbouchi (51:10):
But, yeah, I would love as many people as
possible to have the courage tobe I'll make sure I share your
links to your site, to yourLinkedIn and to the book in the
show notes.
Thank you so much for listeningto this podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
(51:31):
date with all things Agile ideas, go to our website, www.
agilemanagementoffice.
com.
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel or be inspired today
.
Until next time, what's yourAgile Idea?
You're listening to Agile Ideas, the
podcast hosted by FatimahAbbouchi.
For anyone listening out therenot having a good day, please
know there is help out there.
Hi everyone and welcome back toanother episode of Agile Ideas.
I'm CEO, at AMO, mental HealthAmbassador and your host.
(00:24):
On today's episode we haveCarlii Lyon.
Carlii Lyon has been shaping thereputations of remarkable
individuals from across theglobe for over two decades.
As a former internationalpersonal publicist, her past
clients include world-leadingsupermodel Miranda Kerr, new
York Times bestselling authors,inventors, musicians and even a
(00:45):
British celebrity foot reader.
Today, Carlii is dedicated tohelping everyday individuals
shape their personal brandsconfidently, communicate their
value proactively, putthemselves out there and become
intentionally visible to theaudiences that matter.
Recognized as a thought leaderon the topic, Carlii has been
invited to speak to the teams oficonic brands internationally,
(01:08):
including the likes of theFinancial Times, Spotify,
Microsoft, virgin and L'Oreal,to name a few.
She's a regular contributor toForbes on the topic of personal
branding and has been featuredin Smart CEO Magazine, Sky News
and the Sunday Telegraph.
Please join me in welcomingCarlii to the show.
Welcome to the show.
Carlii Lyon (01:29):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Fatimah Abbouchi (01:32):
Let's start with one of the most important
questions Tell us about how yougot to where you are today, so
people can understand yourjourney and why you do what you
do.
Carlii Lyon (01:42):
So I launched my own PR consultancy at the young
age of 21, while I was studyingpublic relations.
So I think at that point I'mstill a very impatient person,
but I was especially impatientat that point and I just wanted
to go out and start being inbusiness.
So I launched my own PRconsultancy.
(02:05):
That was international.
I always specialized inindividual branding.
So my clients were alwaysindividuals thought leaders,
experts, authors, speakers,business leaders, et cetera and
I did that for many years andthat was an international role.
(02:25):
So it was my role as theirpersonal publicist to get their
story out into the world and,you know, manage all of their
media relations and do all ofthe wonderful things that a
public relations agent does.
So I did that for many yearsand then about I get my
(02:46):
timelines a little bit confusedbut about 10 to 15 years into it
I went on extended maternityleave.
So I went from this really fastpaced international PR
existence to being at home withtwo very busy, beautiful baby
boys under the age of two, whichwas a massive shift and change.
(03:08):
And the reason why I'm tellingyou all of that was that was
actually the moment that shapedthe next chapter of my journey,
because it was when I was onextended maternity leave that I
was confronted with the harshreality that in all of that time
telling all of those clientsstories and building their
(03:31):
personal brands, I'd never donethe same for myself.
I'd never stopped to thinkabout what was my personal brand
, what was I doing to elevate mypersonal brand?
And as a result of that, I wason extended maternity leave,
feeling very invisible, becausereally I had done that to myself
.
I had never made a point ofbeing out from behind the scenes
(03:55):
, so I definitely was invisible.
So at that point I thought well,if that's how I'm feeling, then
there's a really good chancethat other people are feeling
the same and perhaps there'ssomething in that I can help
them, you know, get, getthemselves out there and build a
personal brand.
So that's what has launched meinto the, the world of work that
(04:17):
I'm doing now, which iscoaching individuals and
executives on their personalbrand and also, more importantly
, going into organizations allover the world and talking about
this concept of personal brandand building influence.
And I've had the privilege ofworking with some of the biggest
brands all over the world.
You know I'm lucky to countcompanies like the Financial
(04:40):
Times, Volvo, l'oreal, asclients of mine, and it's always
fascinating to me notsurprising, but fascinating that
you know I'm working with someof the smartest individuals in
the world, working with some ofthe biggest brands in the world,
and they've never thought abouttheir personal brand.
Fatimah Abbouchi (04:59):
So interesting .
I want to go back to the firstthing you said, which really 21
and started your own business.
That's that's to the firstthing you said, which really 21
and started your own business.
That's that's like the life ofan entrepreneur being courageous
to take that first risk.
How did you know where to startwhen you decided to make that
shift Like for those listeninggoing, I want to start a
business.
(05:20):
What was the first things thatyou looked at or considered?
How did you decide I?
Carlii Lyon (05:26):
don't, don't really know.
I mean, I look back at thattime and, of course, there are
so many things that I cringe at.
You know what I did at thatpoint.
I didn't know what I was doingand at 21 I always looked much
older than I was, which wasgreat in your 20s, not so great
(05:46):
in your 40s, right.
But the other thing, Fatimah,that is, I think, important to
point out, is I am also a highschool dropout.
So I left school at 15, spentquite a few years hairdressing,
went back to school and finishedmy HSC, or back to TAFE to
finish my HSC.
So I was out in the world ofwork for several years before I
(06:14):
then got into college to studyPR, and I think that real world
experience gave me theconfidence to start my own
business and gave me theconfidence to, you know, put
myself out there.
I wasn't a student comingstraight out of uni and not
really knowing how to haveconversations or deal with
(06:37):
people that were much older thanme.
So the combination of melooking older than I was plus I
had more maturity because ofreal world experience, combined
with my impatience, thinking Ican do this better than what my
college professors or teachersand how they were presenting
themselves.
So I just launched myself outthere and I remember when I
(07:00):
pitched for one of my firstclients, they asked me you know,
so do you have.
Because in PR, and especially atthat point in time, it was all
about your contacts, it was allabout the relationships you had,
especially with the media.
And they said so, do you havegood contacts and good
relationships with the media?
And I remember sitting there,going absolutely, absolutely Did
(07:22):
I.
No.
However, I was so determined.
All I needed was an opportunityand I worked around the clock
to make sure I got thosecontacts and I made sure my
client got the the mediacoverage that I knew that they
could.
So, yeah, that that was how ithappened at that point that's
(07:43):
amazing, I think, um, weshouldn't underestimate that.
Fatimah Abbouchi (07:46):
And what was going through my mind as you
were saying that is you know thescrew it, let's do it.
Richard Branson quote, which isexactly what he did, and 100%
agree.
You typically don't know whatyou're doing when you're
starting off in business, andanyone that says they do, unless
they may be taking over afamily business, really would be
lying.
So what an incredible story.
I can resonate with you aboutcoming off maternity leave as a
(08:11):
mum of a one and a half year old, so congratulations on your
boys.
But how did you like thinkingabout that moment where you
realised that you hadn't donefor yourself what you were doing
for clients?
It's like the example of thehairdresser who hasn't hasn't
done the hair yeah becauseeverybody else's hair amazing
yeah when you think aboutbranding in general like for
(08:32):
those that are listening thatdon't really understand that,
because I know the comments thatI would normally hear is people
don't want to put themselvesout there because they're not
salesy or they don't feelcomfortable.
Can you just simplify it for us?
What is brand and what ispersonal brand?
Why is this so important?
Carlii Lyon (08:47):
So, firstly, going back to that moment where I
recognized that I didn't have apersonal brand, that to me is
very much the situation that alot of individuals find
themselves in because they'vemade, and not so much now.
I mean that was seven years agoand the world in seven years
has changed dramatically.
I think when people hear theterm personal brand, there is
(09:11):
the automatic association withsocial media and the term itself
has really become part of thezeitgeist.
Like we really know what apersonal brand is, we know the
purpose of a personal brand and,because we've all had to get
more comfortable with socialmedia, we understand what it is.
(09:33):
Not to say that there's stillnot confusion around well, what
do I do and how do I do it, andwhat's the real definition of a
personal brand.
But back at that point, when Iwas confronted with the fact
that I hadn't done anythingaround my personal brand, I
think I had bought into the ideathat, well, you have to reach a
(09:55):
certain level in your life andcareer for you to be qualified
as needing to worry about yourpersonal brand.
So for a lot of people thatmeans, oh, I'll think about my
personal brand when I'm the CEOof a company, or I'll think
about my personal brand when andif my role becomes more
(10:16):
external and maybe I have to goand do panel events or go on the
speaking circuit, or, yes,maybe if I have to get on social
media and create some sort ofcontent strategy, that's when
I'll think about it.
My definition of a personalbrand is that it's the way an
individual presents and packagesthemselves for a purpose, and I
(10:39):
always say, whether you'revisible to one person or 1
million people, ultimately, atthe heart of what a personal
brand is, it's about beingintentional about how you're
showing up in that moment, inwhatever and on whatever
platform that you're showing up.
So I don't want people toautomatically assume that a
(11:02):
personal brand is their LinkedInprofile.
Yes, is that an extension ofyour personal brand?
Is that a platform where youcommunicate your personal brand?
Absolutely.
But to me, and what I like totalk about, a personal brand is
much deeper.
It's thinking aboutintentionally who you want to be
, how you want to show up, whyyou're saying the things you're
(11:24):
saying, how you're saying thethings you're saying.
It's a deeper conversation thanjust what your LinkedIn profile
says about you.
Fatimah Abbouchi (11:36):
And you know it's uncomfortable as well.
I'm sure you deal with a lot ofclients that probably maybe
they have made a significantshift in their career or life
and they realize that they, likeyourself, at that point, need
to focus more on their brandwhat do you say to people who
are not feeling reallycomfortable with the idea of it
or maybe think that it's aboutself-promotion or what what is
(12:00):
the advice you could give thosepeople?
So?
Carlii Lyon (12:03):
I would always say everyone is in the business of
being themselves.
That's just full stop.
Everyone's in the business ofbeing themselves.
And what I believe personalbranding does is it's
essentially saying well, it'sgetting into the business of
being good at promoting yourself.
Does everyone like the idea ofself-promotion?
(12:24):
No, but I would say to thosepeople who feel uncomfortable
with the idea is, the moreyou're able to link your
visibility and influence topurpose and impact, then the
easier it becomes.
So what I mean by that is ifyou can see how becoming visible
and building more influence isultimately going to add value
(12:46):
and serve other people, then allof a sudden, not only is your
approach going to be different,so it's.
You're not standing or comingfrom a position of you know, how
do I get out of this audience?
How do I?
You know, how do I look reallygood in front of this audience?
You're coming from a place ofhow do I serve this audience?
How can I add value to thesepeople, to this team, to this
(13:09):
person?
So it's a completely differentmindset, it's a completely
different energy space, and Iwould say to those people who
feel uncomfortable with the ideaof self-promotion to get into
that space, to really start tothink about well, when you are
visible and when you're able tobuild more influence, what
(13:31):
impact is that going to have?
And and focus on that, focus onthat we need.
You know, when I think back towhy I got into PR in the first
place, at that point in time Iwas really passionate about and
I still am about wellness andpersonal development, and so a
(13:51):
lot of my clients were in andfrom that space of wellness and
personal development and what Iwas driven to do was to be able
to use their stories to changethe impact that the media had on
the lives of the people thatwere following the media.
And especially when you thinkback 20 years ago, the media.
(14:14):
There were less platforms wherewe were getting our information
, so the impact of thoseplatforms had, you know, a much
greater, a much greater impacton our lives.
You know, a much greater impacton our lives.
You know we'd read the SundayTelegraph and the story in there
.
So I always thought, well, if Ican use the media in a positive
way and I can share positivestories to have a more positive
(14:37):
influence, then of course that'swhat I want to do Now in the
world that we live in, when youthink about where we get our
information and all of thedifferent platforms and people
that we are influenced by.
I mean to me, now I see myselfas being a person out in the
(14:59):
world to inspire moreindividuals to get out there to
be positive influencers, becausewe need that in the world right
now.
We really need that in theworld right now.
So that's what I would say tothose people who are feeling
uncomfortable about it.
Yes, I know most people lookout for example, I hear it all
the time.
They look out onto LinkedIn andthey go, oh, I just don't want
(15:21):
to be that person, I don't wantto be seen as that person.
And, yes, maybe some of it'snoise to you, but, as they say,
what's noise to one person ismusic to another.
So just focus on the peoplethat you want to be music to.
Fatimah Abbouchi (15:41):
Basically, that's really well said.
I think you hit the nail on thehead talking about the value.
Like you know, what I would useis value, and I think that the
value that people can provide,as opposed to, like you sort of
said, it's not.
It's not.
It's not being cringy and beingself-promoting in a way that
doesn't drive value.
(16:01):
It's actually providing valuein a way that doesn't drive
value.
It's actually providing value.
I think something that peopleoften miss, are misguided by, is
that you don't want to waituntil a point in time where you
think you might need so.
For example, one of the thingsthat's going through my head is
there might be people out therethat may come to you and say,
look, I don't know where tostart.
I want to build my brand andmaybe they've further progressed
(16:22):
in their career.
What are the benefits that cancome from having time and energy
spent towards your as you said,your personal brand?
Carlii Lyon (16:32):
When you're really clear on what you're putting out
into the world, then thechances of you attracting things
, people, places andopportunities that are going to
resonate with who you want to beand what you want in your life
are far greater.
And you know, I only had thisconversation yesterday with an
(16:54):
executive who was trying to workout, well, what does this whole
personal branding thing mean toher?
And she wasn't necessarilyinterested in creating a robust
following on social media oranything like that, and I
explained to her that by beingreally clear and intentional on
(17:14):
what her personal brand was.
It's not necessarily aboutdoing more, so in that case, not
necessarily I'm not going to betelling her to go on LinkedIn
and start creating a contentstrategy or get on the speaking
circuit or whatever, but it'sabout doing the things that
(17:36):
you're already doing, but doingthem intentionally.
So I'll give you an example,and what I shared with her was
perhaps by getting clear on herpersonal brand, how she wanted
to position herself and what shewanted to be remembered for in
terms of areas of expertise andskills.
Perhaps by just being clear onthat when she is next in
(17:58):
meetings or she has anopportunity to meet a person who
actually could be reallypivotal in her career or open
doors for her, just by beingclear on what it is she wants to
be remembered.
By then that's going to changewhat she says, how she presents
her ideas, because she'll comeat it perhaps with an angle
(18:24):
that's more aligned to who shewants to be, rather than just
whatever comes to mind.
And some people would argue oh,Carlii, that just feels like so
much effort and you know, somuch extra mind share,
constantly thinking, and so itfeels like it's a performance.
(18:46):
Well, I would argue that, yes,maybe in the beginning it feels
like a lot of effort to sit downand think about this is who I
am and this is how I want to beremembered and these are the
things I want to attract and theopportunities I want to, you
know, align myself with.
(19:07):
And yes, so that's where effortmay lie.
But I actually believe afterthat it becomes a bit of plug
and play, because you can, youjust all will automatically all
become habitual to startspeaking to who you want to be.
Fatimah Abbouchi (19:25):
And does this tie into something you talk
about, which is the power offuture self psychology?
So, thinking about that, canyou explain that, that term,
because I think this is relevantto what you just said?
Carlii Lyon (19:37):
I didn't even know that there was an area of
psychology like.
There actually is an area ofpsychology called future self
psychology and there are a fewkey pioneers in that space that
I follow and I've I've read upon and looked into the research
of, and future self psychologyessentially is the idea of
(20:00):
tapping into the power of yourfuture self and really starting
to think about who that personwill be.
And there's one gentleman inparticular, dr Hal Hirschfield,
who actually delivered anamazing TED Talk on this and
wrote a book on this, and in oneof his research studies they
(20:22):
got a group of students togetherand for every student they
created a digital avatar andthen invited them to go into
this virtual reality.
And so you see these students.
You actually see it as part ofhis TED Talk, you see these
students go into this virtualreality.
One half of the students weregiven a digital avatar that
(20:43):
looked like who they were today,so just a weird version of
themselves.
The other half of the studentswere given a digital avatar that
looked like them, but digitallyenhanced in a way that it was
them in 40 years time.
And so, again, you see them gointo this world At the end of
their journey into the virtualreality.
(21:05):
They were asked a series ofquestions and in this case, the
series of questions were relatedto financial decision-making.
And what they found was thatthe students that went into the
virtual reality and sawthemselves in 40 years time and
obviously in that momentrecognize that the person
they're going to be is not theperson they are today.
(21:26):
It's a completely separateperson to them.
Their decisions were verydifferent.
So they committed to saving 20to 30% more than the students
who saw themselves as who theywere today.
So by really recognizing thatwho we're going to be in the
(21:47):
future is a totally differentperson, like him or her are
going to live the consequencesof our decision today and
they're a completely differentperson.
And we can really use that toour advantage.
And I always say to people youknow, you've got your future
(22:08):
self.
Imagine using your future selfas a mentor in those moments
when you're feeling unsure orscared of putting yourself out
there.
Imagine just taking a moment tosit, close your eyes and think
about okay, what would my futureself say to me right now, and
(22:28):
really see it, whether it's the90-year-old version of yourself,
whether it's the 50-year-oldversion, whatever feels more
real and powerful to you, like,what would he or she say to you?
And I've asked that question tocountless audience members and
I always put them on the spotand I say you know, you've been
(22:51):
given this opportunity.
You're scared, you're worried,what would your future self say
to you?
And every single time it's justgo for it, just do it, it's
going to be okay.
And, like it always gives megoosebumps when, when the
audience, when you know whoeverI've asked says that, because
our future selves always say thesame things Just go for it,
(23:11):
just do it.
So there's so many ways thatand I encourage everyone
listening to do some researcharound future self psychology
because it's fascinating, it'sreally fascinating.
Fatimah Abbouchi (23:24):
I didn't.
I mean, I've spent a lot oftime working with psychologists
over the years and stuff in themental health but didn't
actually know that that was anarea.
Carlii Lyon (23:32):
So I was definitely going to look into that.
It's amazing.
Fatimah Abbouchi (23:35):
Yeah, it's fascinating, but I can resonate
with something specifically yousaid.
I remember about 10 years ago,early on in my business, I was
going to have a conversationwith someone that I was
absolutely dreading because Ihad to let them go, and I
remember the coach at the timethat I was working with asked me
to put myself in the situationat the point of doing that
(23:55):
difficult conversation and alsoimagining how it felt afterwards
, and it was a conversation thatI envisaged so many times
exactly as you described, andwas able to then do it with a
clearer mind.
Carlii Lyon (24:06):
And so I can definitely attest to that.
Fatimah Abbouchi (24:10):
It's a great strategy.
I'm going to say what I think alot of people will say, and so
I can definitely attest to that.
I'm going to say what I think alot of people will say and
they're going to say.
But how do I overcome myself-doubt?
How do I deal with therejection?
Or, in my case, you knowsometimes you get criticism on
your social content or you knowyou're doing a talk.
How do I overcome that?
Like?
What strategies can I put inplace?
Carlii Lyon (24:33):
You know, from my personal perspective and also
having watched many clients gofrom I don't want to do it, I'm
too scared to really leaninginto it and just going for it.
The biggest and most powerfulmindset shift you can have is
(24:55):
understanding and appreciatingand almost expecting you will
get criticism, you will getrejection, you all of those
things are par for the course.
Those things are par for thecourse and I think the when you
really accept that, then you'renot surprised by it.
(25:23):
So if you're standing in aplace of okay, I'm going to do
this, I will be criticized, Iwill get disapproval, I will
will.
Will You're not then comingfrom a place of what can I do to
make sure I'm not criticised?
What can I do to make sure I'mnot rejected?
Instead, it's yeah, I will 100%get rejected, yeah, I'm going
to get rejected.
I think that in and of itselfcan change the game.
(25:49):
That in and of itself canchange the game.
Another mindset shift is and Ithis was just this came up in a
coaching session this morningwith a client who admitted that
they always like to be the niceperson, they want to be the
person that's liked by everyone,and I said to them okay.
(26:12):
So just looking at the niceversion of you, the one that you
really, you know, try to showup as so that everyone will like
you, do you think thateverybody likes that version of
you?
And they were like.
No, and I said so.
The version of you that you'retrying so desperately to hold on
(26:35):
to and to keep emulatingbecause you think that's the
version of you that everyone'sgoing to like, even that version
of you, not everyone likes.
So you know there's no winningwhen you come from a place of
not wanting to be liked byeveryone, wanting to be accepted
(26:56):
by everyone and wanting to notbe rejected by anyone.
There's no way you're going towin.
So that's my honest feedback.
There's no way getting aroundthat and you have to.
I always say pick your poison.
You either sit in the andremain in the sidelines not
(27:18):
doing the things you want to dobecause you're afraid of all
those things, or you get inthere like everyone else who's
in there and just accept thatthat's par for the course and
you decide which has the greaterupside, sitting there in that
place of self for the course,and you decide which has the
greater upside, sitting there inthat place of self-doubt and
scared of doing it, versusgetting out there knowing that
those things are going to come,but actually the upside is so
(27:41):
much better than the otheroption it's the, it's the saying
.
Fatimah Abbouchi (27:46):
You know, you're damned if you do, and
you're damned if you don't.
So might as well have fun doingit.
Carlii Lyon (27:51):
It really is the.
It really really is the truthyou really are, and I would, the
more that you do put yourselfout there and the more that you
experience it and live throughit like it's not as terrible as
perhaps you thought it was goingto be.
(28:12):
It's just, it is what it is.
And then you also put it inperspective.
So that rejection that I mayhave got or you may have got for
the who at that point, at thatperson rejected you, you're
forgotten already, like you candecide to hold on to it and
ruminate over it and make it areally big deal, but the person
(28:35):
who's rejected you or the personwho's criticized you, they are
no longer thinking about you.
They're on to the next thing, orthey're thinking about
themselves 100% and you knowthey say that.
Fatimah Abbouchi (28:46):
Those that are online criticizing others, you
know it's more about them, areflection on what their life
and what they're going through,and you have to have empathy for
those people as opposed to you.
Know you getting on with thingsand doing the things that make
you happy and living your lifeand meeting your goals and and
building your career andwhatever it is that you know you
want to do.
So I think that I like that.
(29:08):
I think it's hard sometimeswhen you're in the, in the
spotlight, even hosting apodcast, for example, um and
working in in the space wherepeople will see things that you
put on on social.
So I think it really resonatesthat you, just as you said, you
just have to accept it willhappen, as opposed to avoid it
from happening because you'renever going to please everyone.
Carlii Lyon (29:31):
You are never going to please everyone, and it will
happen, and it's just.
It's.
Yeah, it's par for the course.
It's the the price of entry,it's the price of entry.
So if you don't want all ofthose things, then the.
Fatimah Abbouchi (29:48):
You then decide what, what that price is
it's the price, um, of you know,the fear of the unknown or not
doing what you want, and then,as you said, looking at yourself
in 40 years time and going.
I regret not doing this and Iregret not doing that because I
was, I was scared about you know, some rando giving me some
negative feedback or commentaryor something that you know have
(30:09):
absolutely appearing on yourlife.
So hopefully it drives some, uh, I guess some confidence to
just accept it is what it is andjust moving and moving forward
I am.
I know that you've got, um,you've got a book coming out
shortly, um, so tell us aboutwhy this book and why now and
(30:29):
then I've got some questionsabout some of the content of the
book that, um, I can't wait toread perfect.
Carlii Lyon (30:35):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited.
Uh, it feels like you've justyou've got a year and a half
year old baby.
So this, um, this book, is mythird child and it feels like
the birthing process has beentwo years.
So I'm so excited to give birthto this book in September,
(30:57):
which, I believe, by the time wewe this conversation, is out.
So the book is called Courage toBe.
The subtitle is Small Steps fora Big Life and it really is
just about helping people findthe courage to be who they want
to be and to put themselves outthere.
And the way that I've writtenthe book.
(31:20):
It's a series of short stories,chapters, and it's broken into
three sections of mind, body andbrand.
And from my perspective assomeone who's living and
breathing and talking aboutpersonal branding, those three
(31:40):
areas when you can get thosethree areas and you work towards
having those three areas reallyaligned to who you want to be,
that's where the magic happens.
So, mind being, you know.
Mindset, being able toinfluence yourself and your own
thinking and actions.
Body, really recognizing andunderstanding and appreciating
(32:06):
You've got this amazing vehicleto use to bring your dreams and
ideas alive in this physicalrealm.
So using that to the best ofyour advantage.
And then brand understandingthat people are not mind readers
.
And especially today, becauseof the digital era that we're
(32:29):
living in, we've got this realpowerful opportunity to tell
people who we are and what wewant and what we stand for and
really open ourselves up toattracting opportunities, and I
think by not doing that, you'rereally leaving so many things on
the table.
Fatimah Abbouchi (32:49):
It's really exciting because I think the
three things together I can justsee them intertwining are so
important, and I think we'vetouched a little bit on mindset.
But the part of it that I thinkreally I'm keen to get into a
bit more is the body and thenbrand.
But before we do that, what wasthe most, I guess, surprising
(33:10):
thing about this two-year babygrading book journey?
Because, as myself and othersare probably keen to do that
themselves.
So is there anything thatreally surprised you or, I guess
, something that really stoodout during that journey?
Carlii Lyon (33:32):
two biggest lessons that I learned in the whole
process of writing the book, youknow, and getting it to the
point now where it's nearlyready to to be put out into the
world.
The first one was how importantit is to have a really clear
outline.
So, before you even considerwriting of writing the book,
write the proposal, and that'sgoing to force you to really
(33:54):
think about who is this book for, why is it different?
You know how are you going topresent your ideas in a way
that's cohesive and compellingand all the rest of it.
So taking the time and spendinga lot of time on that framework
, if you like, first is reallypowerful.
(34:16):
It's going to save you so muchtime.
And then, secondly, my mentor.
I started writing the book and Ijust kept getting blocked,
blocked, couldn't like.
I just I would write it.
Then I didn't.
You know it wasn't right.
And and my mentor said, justwrite the book with one person
(34:38):
in mind.
Imagine that you're writing thebook for one person.
And the person that I decidedto write the book for was my
past self.
So I wrote the book for theversion of me that was on
extended maternity leave,feeling lost, invisible, unsure
(34:58):
of what the next chapter of hercareer would look like terrified
about putting herself out there.
And so I wrote the book withher in mind, and the moment I
did that, it just it.
Everything started to flowbecause I knew what she needed,
I knew what kind of book wouldhelp her, and it was actually
(35:21):
really easy to do.
Fatimah Abbouchi (35:23):
After I got into that mind space, how, how,
how incredibly beneficial was itfor you to um, to take that
moment and think about, like yousaid, an individual and then
yourself, because you've gonethrough this journey, so you now
don't want others to have to gothrough the challenges that you
had.
So I think it's incredibly, umpowerful to think of it that way
(35:45):
and therefore go back to whatwe said earlier you're not
trying to appease everyone andyou know, everything and
everyone which you know meansyou, please, no one.
But yeah, one of the things that, um, I'm curious about is, when
you think about, um, the factthat you had to spend the time
thinking about your past selfand yeah, and getting to the
(36:06):
point of of writing where, howand where did you get, I guess,
feedback along the way to letyou know you're on the right
track?
Or is that through the coachthat you had that was supporting
you through the journey?
Carlii Lyon (36:22):
I engaged a book coach, so that was my mentor,
who my mentor has been inpublishing all his life.
He's in his seventies.
He was the managing director ofa global publishing house, so
he had a lot of experience, hasa lot of experience.
But I did also engage a bookcoach who also has amazing
(36:46):
credibility in the publishingspace and she walked me through.
So I would send her three orfour chapters at a time and she
would give her feedback on eachof those chapters.
And the way that I wrote thebook I think was perfect for me.
I have a whole new appreciationfor people who have an idea and
(37:08):
are able to write a whole bookabout that idea and it be
cohesive and logical and amazing.
I don't know how they do that,but the way that I wrote the
book was in small standalonechapters which made sense
together but they didn't flow onfrom one another.
So it's a different writingstyle.
I had a a book coach, then itwent to an editor, then it went
(37:33):
to a proofreader and so you,there is a whole team involved
in getting a book to the stagewhere it's actually out on
shelves.
Uh, so yeah, that's how.
That's how I did it along theway it's a really exciting.
Fatimah Abbouchi (37:49):
I'll make sure I share a link to the book and
I can't wait to get a copy.
So I'll stay tuned for that.
Tell me.
You talk about physicalpractices in the book, which
I've asked.
Dan, what's physical practice?
Tell me about physicalpractices.
Carlii Lyon (38:05):
Well, there's lots of different physical practices
and we really we underestimate.
Well, maybe we don'tunderestimate, but maybe
sometimes we don't pay enoughattention to how impactful our
body, our physical presence, canbe in terms of interact when we
interact with others, and alsohow we can use our physical
(38:29):
presence and our body toinfluence ourselves, and so I
share lots of different ideas inthat area and how to use your
body to, you know, change theway you're thinking and feeling.
There's a lady by the name ofDr Amy Cuddy who wrote a book
(38:52):
called Presence.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that.
Yes, I've heard of it, yes andshe especially talks about how
we can use our body language toimpact our thoughts and feelings
.
So there's one part of the bookthat talks about that.
You know, using your bodylanguage to impact your thoughts
and feelings.
(39:12):
There are, you know, how wecharisma is part of when we
think of someone who'scharismatic, and you know how do
we use our bodies to be morecharismatic the tone of our
voice, our eye contact, smiling.
(39:33):
You know smiling.
All the research around smilingand here's the funny thing about
smiling is, as women especially, we've been told, don't smile
too much, and I had aconversation with one of the
world's leading experts in bodylanguage and his advice to women
is when you're dealing with men, powerful men or someone in a
(39:57):
powerful position, match theirsmiling their rate of smiling.
So if they're smiling, you smile, but don't smile too much.
So there's all of thiscommentary around you know, not
smiling too much, but then theresearch around smiling.
You know not smiling too much,but then the research around
smiling.
You know it's been shown tomake you look younger, more
(40:18):
attractive, more memorable, Like.
There's all these beautifulthings about smiling that I
think we should be aware of.
And when I learned or readabout all of the research around
smiling, this is just oneexample of how to use your body
to shift your brand and and yourpersonal brand.
But when I read about theresearch around smiling, as
(40:43):
children, we smile up to 400times a day.
Guess what the number is, whatit drops down to as an adult?
Fatimah Abbouchi (40:53):
I'm sure I've come across this somewhere.
Is this like in the 20s?
Carlii Lyon (40:56):
Yes, Like how sad is that it's so sad.
Fatimah Abbouchi (41:01):
It's really sad, it really is, it really is.
We're so distracted, we're sobusy, we're so overwhelmed,
we're so burnt out.
You know there's so much goingon, like the pressure, the
deadlines, the digital noiseeverything gets drowned out and,
like I said, you simply forgetthe small things like that that
can make a big shift to yourmood and how you're feeling that
(41:25):
day.
We get taught a lot about thatin the work that Beyond Blue
does and their research withmental health.
One of the things that Ilearned through that is like if
you act as if you're happy oryou know, obviously depending on
no serious situation going onfor you but if you're anxious
and you act as if you're happy,your mind tricks itself into
(41:48):
making you feel that you are.
And I think if you smile Idon't know if the research you
came across to this, but if yousmile, it might make yourself
feel that you're happier andmake you happier in the long run
.
Carlii Lyon (42:00):
Yeah, so it's amazing, it's amazing.
Fatimah Abbouchi (42:04):
And then I wanted to touch on briefly, you
know, go back to the brandingside.
One of the things that I'm keento know is, like I myself, like
many are all over social media.
You're constantly sharingcontent articles, posts, blogs,
whatever but how do you standout in like a crowded space,
like, how do you claim yourspace from a brand perspective?
Carlii Lyon (42:28):
Yeah, Well, I think it's important to identify what
your definition of standing outis and why that's so important,
fatima is.
I think a lot of peopleautomatically associate vanity
metrics to standing out.
(42:49):
So their measurement of I'mstanding out is I'm getting more
followers, I'm getting morelikes, and I think that's and
especially now that we'veentered the age of AI and we're
seeing a lot more peoplecreating content on social media
(43:10):
, especially because they can,and it's all automated and you
know that's a whole otherconversation.
But it's getting noisier andnoisier and the idea of
measuring through vanity metricsalone, I think, is not the
(43:31):
right path to take.
It's about quality overquantity and the measurement
should be who am I actuallyreaching and are they the people
that I want to reach?
And if you are reaching thepeople you want to reach, then
to me that's a really good signthat you're standing out in the
(43:52):
right way.
Because a lot of people willsay you know how do I stand out?
How do I?
Well, often they're measuringit by, but I'm not getting more,
you know, followers, I'm notgetting more likes, so then I'm
not standing out.
But actually, if we take thataway and we look at who are you
(44:12):
reaching and what are theirperceptions of you.
What are they getting from youin terms of if you ask them to
relay to you what your messageis and what your purpose is, and
if they're able to do thatclearly and you are standing up?
Fatimah Abbouchi (44:31):
It's a really good point and I think it would
also make sense if others aretelling people, if those people
are telling others about you aswell, because obviously
something in your message or,yes, scary and all of that.
So I think that's a that's agood mission.
But I I agree with your pointaround the vanity metrics,
because there's people out thereonline every day that are, you
(44:51):
know, nasty or narcissistic, oryou know just putting other
people down, that are you know,nasty or narcissistic, or you
know just putting other peopledown, that are getting thousands
of followers and likes andcomments and on their stuff it
doesn't make them, you know, anexpert in anything or a good
person.
So, you're right, it's probablynot the right metric and it's
interesting how some of theplatforms have removed, you know
, the likes and things like that.
So, yeah, I think that's somegood context and I think it's
(45:17):
how people remember you and whatthey remember you for, which I
think really would help peopleto make those connections you
talked about, because I used tothink branding was all about,
you know, just marketing andgetting your face out there and
all that, but there's so muchmore to it, as you talked about
before that I think you'veprobably unpacked here for
people today.
Carlii Lyon (45:39):
Well, thank you, I hope I have.
And look, you know, there's nodenying that reach.
We want to get out to newpotential customers and we want
that exposure because thatexposure can often lead to
opportunity, that exposure,because that exposure can often
lead to opportunity.
(46:00):
But again, it's just, I don'tthink it's about being realistic
, but it's just being focused.
Focused in the right areas forthe right reasons.
Because if you were to doresearch around, you know how to
create a viral post on LinkedInor Instagram you will probably
find a formula that willautomatically increase your
(46:22):
engagement and your numbers andall the rest of it.
But the question then would beis it sending the message that
you want to send?
Is it sending it in a waythat's truly aligned with who
you are and the experiencethey're going to have when
working with you and yourcompany?
(46:43):
And are they the right people?
You know, just the other week Ihad a post go crazy on LinkedIn
and the reality is it didn'treach all of the right people
necessarily.
So you know what I mean.
It's like that wasn't the metricof success for me.
The metric of success is am Igetting people reaching out to
(47:06):
me that are the right kind ofqualified people that I want to
work with.
That's how you read it, and theonly way you're going to get
that is by really leaning intoyour real voice, your real
message, your real point ofdifference.
How do you get to the point ofgetting clear on what that is?
(47:29):
Mm-hmm, well, it's.
You know.
It's time, effort, work,self-reflection, you know, and
there's no doubt, working withexperts who can help you perhaps
articulate and ask you theright questions that are going
to unlock the right answers.
There's real value in that, butit's it's making sure that
(47:52):
whatever you end up putting outinto the world feels very
aligned to who you are and whatyou want.
Fatimah Abbouchi (48:01):
And being able to back it up, I guess because
there's a lot of content goingout there and then you have to
interview someone and you askthem about all the things that
they've been and they've got noidea Exactly.
It happened to me recently.
I just thought it a reallyrelevant timing for that one.
So so, um, you know, in kind oftowards our closing of today,
(48:21):
um, how can you, or what's onesmall step if you know I'm
someone listening who's beenplaying small, waiting for the
right moments like what's onesmall step that you'd recommend
I can take if I wanted toimprove my presence and my brand
?
Carlii Lyon (48:38):
One small step.
I would say one small step totake is to ask someone for
something.
So what I mean by that is asksomeone for a favor, ask someone
for an introduction.
So the ask has to be related tohelping you get something that
(49:05):
you want in terms of careerprogression, becoming more
visible, like having anopportunity to showcase who you
are and your skills.
Just ask, make a commitmentthis week to ask one person for
(49:25):
something and if you can getcomfortable at asking, pitching,
seeking opportunities, that inand of itself is going to create
a dramatic shift in yourpersonal brand and your personal
brand journey, because at theheart of the results that I'm
(49:48):
sure everyone's hoping to getfrom having a personal brand,
from being more visible, at theheart of it is having the
courage to ask for what you want.
Fatimah Abbouchi (49:59):
And going back to that lovely title of your
book, so very resonating, Ican't wait to share it.
I've enjoyed.
I know it's a little bitdifferent for us in terms of
some of the conversations wehave on here, so I really
thought this would be impactfulfor those maybe similar to
ourselves having a business, ormaybe you know myself having a
(50:19):
corporate background, and reallyall of these messages are
relevant, whether you're anentrepreneur, whether you are a
corporate career ladder climbingperson, whether you're, you
know, just a stay-at-home momthat's currently thinking about,
you know, growing your networkand your opportunities as well.
Our last question for you today, Carlii, is if there's anything
you'd like to share with ourlisteners, a call to action, a
(50:41):
piece of advice or a question toponder today.
Carlii Lyon (50:45):
Well, I would love given I have been giving, or at
least pregnant with, this bookidea and this book for so long,
I would love them to check outthe book.
Buy this book for so long.
I would love them to to checkout the book.
Buy the book If it resonates.
Uh, you can download a freechapter on my website so you can
get a sense of if it is goingto resonate and if it is
(51:08):
something you want to invest in.
Fatimah Abbouchi (51:10):
But, yeah, I would love as many people as
possible to have the courage tobe I'll make sure I share your
links to your site, to yourLinkedIn and to the book in the
show notes.
Thank you so much for listeningto this podcast.
Please share this with someoneor rate it if you enjoyed it.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media and to stay up to
(51:31):
date with all things Agile ideas, go to our website, www.
agilemanagementoffice.
com.
I hope you've been able tolearn, feel or be inspired today
.
Until next time, what's yourAgile Idea?
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