June 22, 2023 • 47 mins
In 2007, Tommy Soulati Shepard and Kaitlin McGaw formed Alphabet Rockers to make music that makes change. This episode discusses how they met, the wide variety of their performing backgrounds and how they, 3 professional children artists and a host of other artist collaborators use hip hop to put a child's experience at the heart of its message.
The Alphabet Rockers mission is to create music that disrupts racism, educates and fills children and adults with messages of hope and joy. Tommy and Kaitlin talk about how a parent's role is so important in nurturing a child's growth and confidence. Their work encourages both children and adults to reflect on their own experiences, actions, non-actions and to ponder the role of silence.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I just want to say that whoever's listening to this
space, just what is youragility in the moment with your
voice?
That's the real question, andwhat are the parts you need to
stretch, what are the parts youneed to rest?
As my friend.
There is something that I mightneed you to do.
(00:25):
Just because you say we needequality too will you speak out,
step up and defend my truth?
If you do, i'll go with you,cause as my friend you will know
the truth and love just who Iam.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Listen to this next Agile Vocalist episode.
Agile Vocalist is a podcast andblog about sound and the
performing arts with aCalifornia connection.
Tommy Solati Shepherd is aninternationally renowned actor,
playwright, composer, educator,rapper, drummer, beatboxer and
music producer.
(01:08):
Tommy is a member of CampoSanto Antique Naked Soul and
co-founder of Alphabet Rockers.
Tommy has composed, performedand toured internationally with
Mark Bamuthi Joseph,collaborating on Scourge, the
Breaks Spoken World, red, blackand Green Abluse and Pelota.
Tommy won a 2018 Isadora DuncanAward and is a four-time Grammy
(01:31):
nominee.
Tommy brings love for family,art, activism and community
building to all of his work,sparking inspiration for a more
joyful and equitable world.
He's the proud father of TommyShepherd III, one of Alphabet
Rockers' youth artists whom he'sraising with his wife.
Anna Caitlin McGaw is a writer,listener and co-founder of
(01:52):
Alphabet Rockers, based inOakland, california, on Ohlone
lands.
Her path in anti-racism and artbegan as a youth in Belmont,
massachusetts, where communitydialogue, activism and poetry
framed her purpose andrelationship with the world.
She's a graduate of Harvardwith a BA in African American
Studies and a four-time Grammynominee artist, fellow and
(02:13):
deeply committed partner forchange.
Caitlin believes radicalimagination begins with the way
we read, sing and ask questionsof the world with our children.
She's the mother of twocreative children of her own,
whom she's raising with herhusband, addy.
In 2023, the movement won theGrammy Award for Best Children's
Music Album.
(02:34):
Congratulations, alphabetRockers.
Thank you for having me, tommyAnd Caitlin In your space.
Tommy, what do you call thisspace again?
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Call it our cacodial, because when we call out to our
folks, we say cacoo.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So it's the cacodial.
What's the maximum?
how many people have you had?
Speaker 5 (02:58):
in this space before I've had eight, yeah or more,
like those summer times where,like everybody and the parents
were here.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Make that more.
Yeah, that's great, that'sgreat.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It's a great space.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
The origins of the cacoo within the Rockers was
when we were.
Our first Grammy nomination wasin New York City And we're like
how are we going to geteveryone's attention?
There were 40 of us travelingtogether Kids parents On trains.
Speaker 6 (03:28):
On the streets, grandparents, everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And we said, how are we going to do this?
And I was just coo-coo And theneveryone would pause.
It stuck.
So that's been five years ofthat.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
That's super great Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I knew there was a story there, so this is a
warm-up question to just get youcomfortable.
What song did you wake up totoday, if any, or sound, or You
know how the brain, like, startsrunning when?
Speaker 5 (03:57):
you're?
Yeah, i wake up with a songevery morning.
I used to like just wake up andthen write it down.
What I heard today, it was ComeOn, eileen.
Today I heard that.
That's what I woke up to.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
That's awesome.
I actually woke up to the soundof my alarm.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
That's the sound of my alarm.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And it was a welcome change, because usually my
daughter wakes me up and so I'msleeping in her bed.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
So this was a wonderful moment of waking up
alone.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
The first song I played today after the classical
music to like just wake up thespace a little bit, was I think
it was Joy by Andy Grammer,which is this like We call it a
driving song.
It's like a Can you sing?
Try to change their.
Well, actually I was singingthe next song after it, so I
(04:54):
know my brain's going.
I found Joy and she opened upmy eyes, something like that,
and I played it again forJasmine to wake her up.
I went in and I was like, comeon, babe, this is about a parent
who loves their kids so much.
She was just sleeping.
She was just sleeping, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
What's the classical Like what's the Oh.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I just I was very I need to get regulated by soft
sounds.
Didn't always have this.
It might be like having twochildren post-pandemic, but my
mom always played classicalpiano as her way of chilling out
, and so for me it actually justlowers the frequency in the
home so that there's not toomany spikes of calling out and
(05:43):
claiming for mama's mind.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I have so much pride and love for people who find a
partner, make a partnership.
And I'm just curious, becauseyou're accountable to each other
, you probably don't agree oneverything.
I don't know what you tell me,but how do you find each other?
Speaker 6 (06:49):
How do you?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
stay together.
What keeps it humming?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
That's a great question because we've had other
folks that were pretty close tothe center and they've asked us
to like don't you guys getdisagreements, Don't?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
you this.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I feel like The first thing about it this past week
that I think.
Number one is trust.
We trust that we're in this forthe right reasons And if it
didn't feel right, we'd saysomething.
So that basic trustcommunication, there's no
backstories going on and there'sno passive business.
Number two is purpose We knowwhy we're doing what we're doing
.
And number three I would justsay is passion for it, like
(07:26):
really diving in and stillenjoying the process towards the
purpose with trust.
Gotta have that trust.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Yeah, i would say that, yeah, i would say we never
have.
We have multiple disagreements.
That's not true, but none ofit's ever been like a deal
breaker.
You know, one of us will bendin the end to whatever.
You know what I mean.
It's never a situation of like,well, i gotta have it this way,
(07:56):
or nothing at all.
It's like, okay, well, i'm notgonna fight this right now, i
don't agree, but I'm not gonnafight it.
I'm actually gonna go with it.
You know what I mean.
It's to say yes to mentality.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Like a theater skill, yeah, yeah, and that's musical.
To me that's a microcosm ofmusical collaboration, which is
somebody's gotta leave right now, but that doesn't mean they
gotta leave the whole time.
You can pass it around, you cancollaborate.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, and we use that in our process of like somebody
throws paint on the wall And so, as song writers, like
sometimes the conversation youmight witness is well, this
isn't really done yet, andthere's a lot of like hamming
and hawing before an idea isshared, and I think we micro
dose that we don't do that bigtime.
We kind of just like how aboutthis?
(08:49):
And then the other person'slike hmm, okay, sometimes it's
like I don't know why, but let'sgo.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
Yeah, but let's go.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And so now what we find like as business partners
when we write music together, itgoes really fast.
Like yesterday we had acollaboration and somebody sent
us a song.
We finished the whole thing inprobably 45 minutes because we
just said we hit, told theengineer, press, record the
energy flows, and then we're allooh, i like what you did there.
And he actually wrote a wholevocal part off of my improv,
(09:24):
which both sound intentionallywoven together.
So it's pretty fun.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I have a dumb question.
When you and I talked, i said Ilove improv, and then, as I
dove in and started to do someresearch, i was like, oh no, the
word is freestyle.
Oh, that's a good one, becauseyou come from an acting
background as well, and spokenwords.
So would you break that downfor?
Speaker 5 (09:49):
What like freestyle versus?
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, because to me improv isn't like theater
slapstick, It's like making up asong.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Like we could do it right here.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
And so that, and maybe that's just because I'm
musical rather than theater.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Right, i think it's all the same words.
You're just making pretty muchsomething out of nothing.
You're saying yes to everything.
Now, traditionally, rappers,when they freestyle, they have a
subject in their head andthey're trying to take you on a
(10:25):
journey as far as what they'retalking about.
As a freestyler, i usually lookaround and see what's happening
in the room and talk aboutthings that are on my mind.
Now, when you're doing theater,you're usually doing that with
someone else.
I haven't had many situationswhere you had to improv a
(10:46):
monologue.
You know what I mean, right,usually between people.
But a rapper can freestyle byhimself, but the best
experiences are when you're in acypher Freestyle with other
people Doing this thing for along while, trying to get my
(11:06):
podcast.
Be agile, yes, be a vocalist,not stay pissed about the world
that we're in, because I don'twant to miss all the love, the
shore, the break, the love andall that I got to do as I fly
from above like a dove And, yes,i got that trophy And I can say
everybody might just know me,they call me so Latif from the
(11:28):
Doremi.
It's like Doremi Fa.
You know me Now, it's just likethat And I bring that rap with
the rhythm of the soul thatmakes your hand clap, even
though it sounds like a snap, ido it just like that.
Give me a fist bump and I cancall it that.
So I do it like this And do notmiss things coming from the
agile vocalist.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Yeah, that's where I come from.
I come from, if anything.
I started making money withbeatboxing before anything.
Before I got acting jobs,before I got drumming jobs it
was beatboxing.
That was kind of people arelike I'll pay you for that.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Like, who was paying for that?
I'm super.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
I mean, at first it was like kind of like trades at
parties.
You got free drinks today,you're going to eat, you're
going to have party favors,you're.
You know, other times my groupwas an acapella group, the first
group.
We called ourselves FalloniusPunk, which I have my tattoo,
(12:33):
and we used to do like markets.
We go to San Luis Obispo and goto the street market and we
would bust and then we wouldcome home with bags of veggies
and Well, i cuz like nobody waslike tipping, but they're like
hey, man, take these cuties withyou.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
No, we were the one.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
Yeah, beat, rap like beats in your salad.
Yummy, fresh lunch balance,chopping mangoes, tomatoes, a
vitamin booster Halo, it's on myhead like I'm an angel, cuz you
know I say no to a cookie, eventhough that's how my name go.
Yellow, red and green Up in mydiet like a pepper rainbow.
Yummy, fresh, yummy, yummy foodup in my tummy.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Spiritually wealthy wealthy, cuz you know we keep
the healthy so, yeah, i starteddoing that and then, like I did
Actually a couple TV shows whereI played like characters that
were beatbox centric, and then Igot into and then I started
getting hired to to Sound, liketo do sound for a place, compose
(13:37):
, like be the composer, butvocally.
So I started doing that becauseI started telling stories, with
beatboxing More like Foleystyle versus like just beats all
the time.
So just you know, creatingsoundscapes, things like that
and I moved from doing that toactually like Helping a whole
cast become the music.
(13:58):
So it started off like sittingin the back doing a play and
beatboxing, with a looper Doingthat type of stuff.
And then I was like, well, whydon't we use the bodies on the
stage to actually create thismusic?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
and Yeah, i was made by Foley because I just learned
about Foley artists right wherethey're Like for me eating the
same.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
Eating the same.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
You can't possibly set up with a soundstage and
have it sound good, right, right.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
So, yeah, I was doing that like Almost like the
Wizard of Oz behind the curtain,but the curtain was exposed And
, yeah, i saw that.
One of your questions was, uhWas about the Izzy, and that's
what I got the Izzy for was mycomposition, vocal composition,
yeah, and the cast sang all themusic.
Every bit of music and thatthing was came from us And it
(14:50):
was an awesome process.
I've been working with Banu TJoseph for years, since like
2003, and so I started off beinghis drummer, then I was the
band leader, mm-hmm, and then Iwas drumming and looping at the
same time and Music and thingslike that, yeah, always was like
the multiple guys like can makethe kids with my mouth, and
(15:15):
then You know what I mean I wasalways trying to do multiple
things at one time and, uh, thatwas the novelty of it And so,
or the virtuosity of it, youknow, uh, yeah, so That got
built up.
We got submitted for the is itdoor dunking award and got that,
got that composition award.
(15:35):
It was.
It was really nice, and stilldoing it not not with that group
of people, but still liketheaters is in us, and so We're
about to bring beat boxing backinto our show.
You know, and like you know,see, if you tell some stories
through beats and things likethat, or just get some Beats
going, you know, get the crowdDoing the beat and all that
(15:57):
stuff.
So yeah, that's that.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Did we answer?
how did you guys meet?
Speaker 5 (16:02):
Oh yeah, Yeah, kind of like through that stuff.
Okay then here we were.
Here.
We're both kind of like doingthis in the arts world, kind of
like knew so many of the samepeople, just didn't know it here
in the Bay, in the Bay, okay,yeah, san Francisco and uh, yeah
, and actually he was in a playcalled beat box, a rapperetta
(16:23):
with the philineas punk raprapperetta, you can tell what
that means.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
It was Completely breakthrough art for the world
and that was about 2000 okayokay, okay, but you didn't
really start.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Alphabet rocker still 2007.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Yeah, okay, yeah, didn't even meet until then.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
You were running parallel, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know the music scene and the art scene is like
You know about each other, oreven if you don't, you're one
hand to shake away from eachother, so you're on the same
journey together.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, right.
Yeah why don't you so what wasin your world, as in that
parallel world, in the parallelworld at?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
the same Roughly the same time.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Where were you?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Well, i, i moved here , um to san francisco in 2000.
I graduated from Hullwood and Ireally was running away from
that experience.
To be honest, um, i was alwaysan artist, i was always an
activist theater, music,everything and That space was
(17:32):
about limits and, um, not aboutfreedom of heart and and
expression.
So I was like, well, maybe oneof my friends moved here.
So I was like, maybe I'll go to.
That's really how I got here.
It was like, let's see if it'sactually an inclusive space like
I read about In the.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
You know, the history of the bay here, activism Yeah
and so that's what drew me here.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But what kept me here was that there was a freedom,
space of expression like I.
I appreciated every element ofit, from like being in drag
shows to wild theater, to Coverbands and open mic nights.
I did everything dance troops,i did literally everything.
And why not when you're youknow that's, that's part of like
(18:20):
, the bravery of like Justexploring, like life.
I never asked people what doyou do for a living?
I say what, what's motivatingyou're like, what do you do to
enjoy your life?
I'm still kind of like that Inany case along the road I
started noticing that, likeCertain artistic efforts took so
much time and focus And they'donly go up for one show, and so
(18:42):
I'd be like, okay, so thetheater process in the Bay Area
unless you're in a touring show,like Tom was talking about like
you basically put in like amonth, two months, and then you
have like two days because thetheater is so expensive to run.
And so I started feeling likeman, that's it.
It didn't feel like I got toreally go too deep into the
(19:03):
performance space And then itwas just already like cast party
and done.
I was like this doesn't feelright.
So then I was like what aboutthis dance troupe?
Let me go hard on the dancetroupe.
So we did that, went all the wayto Vegas.
Tons of stuff, same thing.
That was like we'd put probably12 hours a week in rehearsal
For like a five minuteperformance or whatever it is
Formed, a pride for all theseplaces.
(19:24):
And that too, i was just likewait, there's gotta be something
else, like where you would, allthe time you put in, you can
still play with elements andadapt it.
And so I started that actuallylike unlocked me and to music
was.
I'd always been a player Andsinger, but um, we turned out to
have the same mentor, which isDwayne Caliza, who um was and
(19:47):
just a source of like Everythinggood on the planet truth and
light, oh my gosh, pure, likebeing around, like holy energy,
like truly like one of the mostloving, beautiful voices.
We found out later, i think,actually, when Dwayne passed,
that He was like both of our.
(20:08):
You know, he was an anchor forboth of us.
Y'all were in a show.
We were in a different showtogether.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Yeah, we were in a show together and he was vocal
coaching me all the way throughand never stopped.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Okay, so we were we were in a show together.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I was.
I had gone to audition for itand then I was like, oh my gosh,
can I study voice with you?
I'm just like, of course wentto his beautiful home, which was
like being inside of Like ashelf of precious things, like
everything was magnetic andbeautiful and Like there were
stories just bustling in everycorner.
And I remember he sat therejust playing this chord on the
(20:41):
guitar, waiting for me to writemy first song.
He just sat there staring And Iwas like, oh my gosh, i feel so
.
It was so uncomfortable, but itwas safe at the same time, like
writing your first anythinglike sure, We're just jumping
and you don't know where it'sgonna be.
You need to know you're gonna besafe right.
And after going through like ahard way experience where you're
not good enough, you're notgonna get into the show, you're
(21:04):
not gonna be accepted, to havesomeone just sit there and be
like I'm not actually gonna goanywhere and I'm not looking at
the clock, let's write a song.
So, anyways, that was how Istarted writing music and that
just then, i just followed it,because anytime you write
something, it's not the end ofit.
You have to like then see whereit goes.
And even now, with the songsthat we created in 2016, we're
(21:25):
still look, we like remix themor we think about elements of
them that still serve us today.
How can we make it still feelvibrant to us, like we're not?
it's not a one and donesituation.
So, that's kind of my journey inspiritual life.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
We fall.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
The shift between sort of you know, pre-k
educational and then the shiftto art for change.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about that and how the kids
can do it?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Totally.
I mean, I feel like it's.
I feel like the music westarted with was art for change,
for why?
we were doing it because reallylike educators weren't seeing
everybody in the classroom withopen energy and eyes.
They weren't acknowledging thateveryone was brilliant, and so
there was an element of us beinglike well, if we make the music
(22:40):
for you that makes learningfeel vibrant, you'll see that
the children you missed arelistening actually Like, because
music, even if they're notphysical expressors, you can
tell when people like there'sdifferent ways of learning.
So we were excited about thatin performances too.
Like we knew what it was to gointo a space like make no
(23:02):
mistake, we were getting themost racist things said to us by
librarians, educators, parentsabout hip hop, which is just
anti blackness in a differentsort of words.
You know what are you going touse?
language that's appropriate forchildren?
It's like it's that is a signalto us that you actually are
just harvesting anti blacknessin the way you hold space.
(23:25):
So that was how we entered it.
So then it's like what are yougoing to do with that?
Are you going to have the whitewoman of the duo be like hey,
y'all that's on?
you Like, yeah, we do, we.
I mean, we experiment with allof it.
You have the black male artistsof the two say Hey, can let me
explain hip hop to you.
It's this we're not catering to, like people who aren't doing
(23:45):
the work, because then it's justlike I don't know.
It's like serving up a platterthey didn't even want And
they're not necessarily the oneswe're cooking for.
You know, basic analogy.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
I also know that both of us were already working with
kids before we, before we met,i was a teaching artist, but
teaching elements of hip hopwith a group of people.
The best case scenarios when weall went into a school and
taught five different classesand then go to the next element,
(24:18):
like teach a whole school,every element.
So we go into class I was thebeat guy, the drums and rhythm,
and then I would someone elsewould be teaching graffiti and
DJing and rapping in differentplaces, but then the rapper
would come to this class and welike in a full day, get all the
(24:39):
elements into all these classes.
And so we were doing that.
I think when we met, my wifehad just gotten pregnant And so
still hadn't had a kid quite yet.
We started performing togetherbut just were really into kids
And I think that, like, as faras music, i felt like we were
(25:02):
feeling a void musically.
I remember when musicians cometo my class they always came
with a harmonica or a banjo or aguitar and they were strong and
we'd be singing songs that werekind of boring to me.
It wasn't my jam, like helpingme learn.
(25:23):
You know what I mean, and so weknew that a lot of Bayard kids
were, you know, would do this ifthey heard a beat, you know.
And so we're like, yeah, man,let's bring hip hop into this
place and really expose it as afreedom, culture and an
aesthetic, a life aesthetic,versus just this music, you know
.
And so we start bringing theaesthetics of belonging, of
(25:48):
being in circle, of gettingputting your voice out there,
and yeah.
So without really knowing thatthat's what we're doing.
I'm looking back at it andthat's exactly what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
There's also, like in this hip hop, ciphers that we
created in classrooms andlibraries.
wherever there's a powerdynamic that's immediately
questioned versus somebody witha guitar might say this is your
part only Like, right, thisisn't shaming guitar players at
all.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Yeah, i mean I'm just trying to be sure.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
In fact, there's something quite radical in the
framework of inclusion thatalready is happening musically.
Even if we weren't to sayanything about the world, it's
already happening, But we madethe change because people are
not making there's what werealize is like we're doing it
all in the heart space, So it'smodeled, you're experiencing it,
(26:42):
but we needed the words toactually line up a few more
things, particularly forgrownups, and there were
conversations that we had tohave backstage about power and
race and gender, everything.
We were already doing thatbecause we're human and that's
who we are, And we said seemslike we might want to
(27:04):
investigate doing this in themusic itself.
And then that's when we kind ofwe had to go really deep into
it before we even wrote a song,though, because it's Yeah,
before we pressed record oranything, we dove deep into it.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
I know that we were also experiencing other
children's experiences.
They trusted us to tell ustheir experiences.
My son, of course, trusts me.
He came home and said another,a mixed kid had said the N word,
(27:42):
told him we are these ends, buthe also told him that he wasn't
Mexican, which he is, he'sblack and Mexican.
So we had to have this wholerewiring of what he thought when
he came home And that was oneof the impetuses for us to start
(28:04):
writing.
In that way.
We took it from the classroomto the playground And the
playground was saying yellows,there's biases happening And
there's bullying happening, notjust physical bullying, there's
all these things happening.
And so we definitely weresetting out to try to make music
(28:24):
to empower folks on theplayground And then we were like
okay, well, it goes, biggerthan a playground, where do you
leave?
when you leave the playground,you go home, and we tried to
bring it to the home to get theparents involved in.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And it got me thinking about bullying, because
I started being like bullyingis so connected to white
supremacy because it is adynamic of power and violence
that gets condoned, And so Ithought about that And I was
like, well, how can anybody do abullying show that doesn't talk
(29:29):
about racism, gender and powerand systems?
And that's still a questionbecause many people are doing it
.
It's just more like don't bully.
Bullies is bad.
But really, when I thoughtabout what happened years ago
for little Tommy and his friendat school and the educators, if
(29:51):
you are silent in these momentsand you don't actually know what
to do, you can actually justcreate a ripple pattern of a
future of silent violence in theschools that you just say, well
, it looks like you guys workedit out, But really, it didn't,
it just got swept in enough thatit's like that's not my problem
(30:13):
And I'll be fine whether or notyou address it.
My job is fine, my classroomlooks fine, but then the same
patterns start getting woveninto, like well, that just
happens to that kid.
I don't know why that kid's somad all the time.
You know like these are like.
I'm saying like little thingsthat happen and black boys are
(30:35):
targeted, peers and black girls,but we are watching it all the
time.
It happens very quickly.
You can sit down in circle andsomebody will target the black
boy And I'm this is this yearmore intensely than previous
years of our lives.
So I'm just like, when we talkabout this silence, if it's not
(30:56):
investigated and it's reallylike, it's really harmful and it
hurts everyone who loves blackpeople honestly included.
I'm just saying it hurt, it isharmful to be around because
that means that somebody's needsare not being met and it's
being condoned and patterned.
I don't know.
Just want to say that, say thatIt's really, that's an endemic.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yeah, it's a disrespect Someone's.
yeah, you're not all feelingsafe and comfortable and
respected and sentient being.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And if you just like, truly, aren't talking about it
in your family or in yourclassroom or in your lunch
breaks, you know you just wantto take a break.
take your break, but gotta dosomething better, because I'm
watching children literally sitdown having done nothing and get
hit Like I'm.
physically, there's somethinghappening spiritually in our
(31:56):
planet that is like it's worse.
I will just say that.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
What would you say?
that's over a period of.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I just I feel that there's like our children are
holding all of our fear and ourexhaustion and our
disappointment, and our hope too.
Like all of it, but like we gotto investigate and like the
joyfulness, the love and theexperiences.
And then the investigation oflike why is life easier for you
and your white body?
(32:27):
Like question that What are youcondoning So?
Speaker 5 (32:31):
Right, not asking you that question.
asking you to ask that question, yeah, thank you, yeah, yeah,
yeah, can I?
Speaker 4 (32:41):
just be.
Can you just see me?
Can I just be a child?
Did you know I have me?
Do you have children?
Do you have family?
Do you want to know me?
Hold on to your back.
(33:19):
Outdoor music plays.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Because what happens is like people will dial up
their energy around like MartinLuther King Day, actually, or
now around Juneteenth, but ithas to be like in every day,
like while you're preparing thekids lunch, whatever the thing
is like, and that's the, that'sthe tiring part of like living
in the United States And that iswhy many like black people are
(33:50):
like we got to go find a placewhere we can just live and not
be toxic all the time, feel thetoxicity of this environment.
So when you're like the littlebits along the way and yes, we
actually also celebrate like thesmall moves, because if you're
in tune with your family andyour children, like you can,
they'll recall a small moviemade weeks ago, right, they
(34:13):
recall.
Oh, remember how you likewhatever it is.
Remember how we had bubblesthat time.
The same way they mightremember Remember how we talked
about like if this is to happenat school, what you do or how it
felt.
Remember how we talked about ourmelanin and how our melanin is
actually getting more activatedin this in the sunshine right
(34:34):
now.
Like whatever it is.
Like.
I'm white, my children aremixed heritage, indian white,
and their skin is darker thanmine And it is also lighter than
their dads.
So we're all going to havedifferent vantage points to
talking about our skin and skinprivilege and all of the parts
(34:55):
of my mind.
(35:24):
In terms of freestyling, and I'mnot a rapper.
I'm, but I like to play games.
We can play games in this way,like wordplay That's.
I mean, that's a fundamentaltool of writing and rapping, but
I would not say Hey man, let meget in on that Also.
It's like I feel like I get thesame energy by being in circle,
(35:47):
and so there's a question oflike do you need to flex And is
it like, or can you just holdspace with each other?
Speaker 3 (35:54):
What do you mean by flex?
Speaker 1 (35:55):
like flex, as in let's say, yeah, get you know in
the circle.
Do you need to?
is this your time where youneed to express and have people
hear you?
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
God, like I'm going to.
There's times in my life whereI feel like I need to be heard
And I'm conscious of that.
I think I have it right here,like a trumpet that blows.
Like the amount of energy thatgoes into a trumpet to even get
a sound right, that is likethat's a symbol to me.
And in our community I don'talways need to be heard because
(36:24):
the purpose of what we're doingis to create space for voices to
be heard.
It's not my fault.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
I'm very conscious of when we step up and step back.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Right, and that's I mean putting the kids in the
front.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, yeah.
we've given them like sincethey were about eight.
we've really set them up with alot of different experiences,
whether it be their firstperformance at the Bay Area Book
Festival or we just, like they,did the songs that we've been
doing.
They were so nervous and soexcited And we were like, oh my
gosh, we're like little stageparents you know Parents.
But they're writing too.
(37:03):
And then the writing, likereally nourishing them, and I
think it's important to like tosay this like for any flower of
a child that wants to grow,their family needs to be
invested in them And to writethese songs or these poems in
this way.
The most successful versions ofit that we see is when a parent
(37:24):
is listening with them, notjust the, even though this
includes his son you knowoutsiders, right.
But like the parent says likeno go, you got this.
Like, and that's what our threewriters have done, their
parents are with them.
And even like we just did awhole program with young
songwriters, budding songwriters, eight to 11 years old,
(37:45):
movement, and actually we calledit And we told them like,
express yourselves, how do youfeel powerful?
They wrote it down.
Now take it home and share itwith them.
We love you the most and see ifthere's something else to add
to your poem.
And it was fertile because theycame back proud.
But also like there's analignment that happened when the
(38:06):
parent says yes And also goesdeeper, so they're not saying
you know, just, i'm powerfulwhen I'm a external validation.
External validation like I'm agreat soccer player.
We see this when we go to likeprivileged communities.
It'll be like what makes youfeel powerful.
I play soccer.
I'm good at math.
I'm good at this, i'm good atthis, and it's all these things
where people have told themthey're good And what we notice
(38:29):
underneath there is, if you askand you keep asking, you listen.
In a certain way, i feelpowerful when I'm on my
skateboard, because nothing canstop me.
That's actually the nothing canstop me part.
It's not the act of being goodat something, it's actually the
feeling.
And what are you doing And like, what about it?
So that's how we write with theyoung people and their families
(38:50):
as well, and but you know thesethree youngsters that we did
this last album with.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
We did something different and took it a step
further and, like you know, gottheir ass capped and got their
setup on sound exchange so theycan collect royalties in the
future, set them up with coogingaccounts, so like any money
they make is going to them whenthey turn 18, like that type of
(39:16):
stuff, and taught them a littlebit about the business of it,
because I think they all threethink they're going to be
artists in the world, whetherit's going to be singing or
rapping or playing saxophone orwhatever band they play in, they
still want to be artists.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
You know, yeah, that's awesome.
What are the challenges ofmusic as a family affair or what
are the unique strengths ofthat as you're working together?
Is it different than when, then, your your collaborations,
you've done with other artistswho you're not?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
All right.
Well, we do our best to try totreat each other like a co
worker.
No ready, This is a dad to theson type of situations.
Right, I would say that goesacross the board for anything,
except for you know some point.
You got to be a parent, but youdon't always got to be the
parent You know, but sometimesthey don't know enough yet for
(40:16):
you to like kind of let themroll on some things.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
You know it gets tough sometimes.
I have to stay silent and likenot argue with him.
He genuinely feels like he'sbetter than me.
He like at least once a week.
he's like that.
I feel like I'm a bettersaxophone player than you were,
(40:40):
a drummer than you are, and I'mlike battling him.
Yeah, yeah, and he's like Ithink I'm better at music than
you are And I'm like youprobably are, because you're
learning theory and I neverlearned theory.
There is in my head, you know,but you actually know what it is
.
So, yeah, you're probablybecoming a you know, a more
astute musician than me, but Ihave so many years of playing
(41:01):
music and doing music that youcan't possibly be better than me
.
And you know, and I have tostop doing that because he just
doesn't believe it.
He just doesn't believe it Andme and my wife are always like
dang dude, he doesn't.
He really thinks he's betterthan you.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's so different because, like Maya, for example,
if we're like she's the youngwoman of the group, i just I
know she's better than me Andshe has no interest in trying to
like, she doesn't need to knowthat, right, we pour it into her
(41:41):
.
You're about how talented sheis.
We try to do everything we canfor her to fly, And she
understands that it's not abouther as an individual.
And so when you ask about whatit is to be a family affair of
music, it really is about thecollective space that we do.
And if somebody wants to comeinto the mix and be a soloist in
a way, let me get mine.
(42:03):
Whatever it is, let me get myGrammy with you.
It's not really the right, it'snot going to work out Right.
Right, it's not really theright intention.
But what's fun about makingmusic with people that we've
known for what 10 years?
Dancers, djs.
We take care of each other'skids.
There's co parenting when we'rein community holding each
(42:24):
other's babies.
Bring your baby on tour with us.
We've asked you.
There's like you never gohungry, like people bring food
for you, like there's ways thatare so non transactional, that
are just like watering the rootsof what is like the forest that
we are.
We share water, we sharesunlight.
Speaker 5 (42:42):
Yeah, And it's not a situation where you just drop
your kid off and right.
And you know, and then they'rewith us now you're welcome to be
here too, Like you're invited,And organically that happened.
Like parents, my parents,colleagues, parents use like
when we all started off together, they were like, yeah, man,
we're gonna stay, like we'rehere, Like, and that became a
(43:04):
thing you know was that like abuilt in audience?
I wouldn't say that it was justmore of a support system.
I think And the music iswritten.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
We're all healing ourselves as we do this, like
it's not, like we show up to astudio session, like we're about
to live this good life.
We're like I'm hurting, let'smake something with this.
You know, and even if it's noton that topic, like you're in
space with vibrations singingsinging again.
You sound so beautiful, people.
(43:37):
Like it's healing who we are,is a grown-ups, it's healing our
childhood.
So when the parents come andthey're not like the ones on
stage, they're like I need thisactually.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Like I needed that song today.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
I'm being sad, I don't.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
it's okay, if I've heard it before, i need to hear
it right now, because wherewe're existing is for the future
, and so sometimes people don'teven know we're here in this way
, but people who are do or likemore please pull up close, like
you know that you saw it firsthand.
You're like what is this, right?
I mean, it made you want totalk to us.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Yeah, You know we got .
I'm gonna to pick a little bittrumpet.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Do you play trumpet?
Speaker 1 (44:22):
No, she does, in her mind It's more about this
instrument reflects a block tome.
Like a block, yes, because theamount of air you need to
support to even get the soundout beautifully, it's like.
It's a.
It's like it's a.
it's magical to me The word Iplay clarinet.
(44:45):
clarinet does not take thatlevel of like intensity for me
Stay windy.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
I was going to say that there's people without kids
that come to our shows.
Yes, sit there and cry.
Sit there and cry Like not yourschool shows, but like you know
, freight and salvage.
Right, absolutely.
Different venues, SF jazz.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
They're like people have come out, Yeah, just divide
They don't even have kids.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
They might be aunties and uncles and things like that
, but they didn't bring theirnieces and nephews with them.
They came just to vibe, youknow, which is awesome.
That's awesome.
What do you call it, marker?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
And there's teachers, like we've done this, where we
do exactly what we're talkingabout.
We're talking about energetic,intentional music, where the
teachers in the schools are soinvested or you'll see the like
custodian in the back of theirarm, just like yes, part, yeah,
and they like kind of lose alittle bit of their like place
on like what their activity was,because they're they're served
(45:49):
Right.
That's not all.
If you get this, if you get thesound engineer, the custodian
or like front of house toactually leave what they're
doing to come in and see what'shappening, you know, you did
your job as a musician.
Speaker 5 (46:01):
Yeah, lunch lady stops doing this stuff And you
know what?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
There's some schools where they're like we made you
some food.
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
It doesn't sound powerful.
Speaker 5 (46:13):
It is Sound and message, and then the measure of
fame becomes like really coolbecause people are like are you
famous?
I'm like, yeah, heck famous,you know what I mean.
Like you'll be out and I wasdoing a event, a library event.
It was like a like a late nightevent, and there are people on
third like it's like an openatrium spot, but you could see
(46:35):
the floors and there was someoneon the third floor like on some
like yo alphabet rockers, and Iwas like, hey, what's up there
Like Diamond District library,and you know what I mean.
Like like the other, like that,they're like yo.
I know you.
We went to a high school.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Now, when we say we make music for children and
families, high school was notour target audience, high
schoolers I'm pulling up and Iwas like I hope they know, like
that, we know, you know, theymeant to book us Right.
I was like, oh my God, taylorSwift, you know, came on And I
was like Hey, can we takepictures of you?
(47:14):
I was like, yeah, yeah, it wasbananas Grown up, grown up kids.
I just want to say that whoever's listening to this
space, just what is youragility in the moment with your
voice?
That's the real question, andwhat are the parts you need to
stretch, what are the parts youneed to rest?
As my friend.
There is something that I mightneed you to do.
(00:25):
Just because you say we needequality too will you speak out,
step up and defend my truth?
If you do, i'll go with you,cause as my friend you will know
the truth and love just who Iam.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Listen to this next Agile Vocalist episode.
Agile Vocalist is a podcast andblog about sound and the
performing arts with aCalifornia connection.
Tommy Solati Shepherd is aninternationally renowned actor,
playwright, composer, educator,rapper, drummer, beatboxer and
music producer.
(01:08):
Tommy is a member of CampoSanto Antique Naked Soul and
co-founder of Alphabet Rockers.
Tommy has composed, performedand toured internationally with
Mark Bamuthi Joseph,collaborating on Scourge, the
Breaks Spoken World, red, blackand Green Abluse and Pelota.
Tommy won a 2018 Isadora DuncanAward and is a four-time Grammy
(01:31):
nominee.
Tommy brings love for family,art, activism and community
building to all of his work,sparking inspiration for a more
joyful and equitable world.
He's the proud father of TommyShepherd III, one of Alphabet
Rockers' youth artists whom he'sraising with his wife.
Anna Caitlin McGaw is a writer,listener and co-founder of
(01:52):
Alphabet Rockers, based inOakland, california, on Ohlone
lands.
Her path in anti-racism and artbegan as a youth in Belmont,
massachusetts, where communitydialogue, activism and poetry
framed her purpose andrelationship with the world.
She's a graduate of Harvardwith a BA in African American
Studies and a four-time Grammynominee artist, fellow and
(02:13):
deeply committed partner forchange.
Caitlin believes radicalimagination begins with the way
we read, sing and ask questionsof the world with our children.
She's the mother of twocreative children of her own,
whom she's raising with herhusband, addy.
In 2023, the movement won theGrammy Award for Best Children's
Music Album.
(02:34):
Congratulations, alphabetRockers.
Thank you for having me, tommyAnd Caitlin In your space.
Tommy, what do you call thisspace again?
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Call it our cacodial, because when we call out to our
folks, we say cacoo.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So it's the cacodial.
What's the maximum?
how many people have you had?
Speaker 5 (02:58):
in this space before I've had eight, yeah or more,
like those summer times where,like everybody and the parents
were here.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Make that more.
Yeah, that's great, that'sgreat.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
It's a great space.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
The origins of the cacoo within the Rockers was
when we were.
Our first Grammy nomination wasin New York City And we're like
how are we going to geteveryone's attention?
There were 40 of us travelingtogether Kids parents On trains.
Speaker 6 (03:28):
On the streets, grandparents, everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And we said, how are we going to do this?
And I was just coo-coo And theneveryone would pause.
It stuck.
So that's been five years ofthat.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
That's super great Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
I knew there was a story there, so this is a
warm-up question to just get youcomfortable.
What song did you wake up totoday, if any, or sound, or You
know how the brain, like, startsrunning when?
Speaker 5 (03:57):
you're?
Yeah, i wake up with a songevery morning.
I used to like just wake up andthen write it down.
What I heard today, it was ComeOn, eileen.
Today I heard that.
That's what I woke up to.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
That's awesome.
I actually woke up to the soundof my alarm.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
That's the sound of my alarm.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And it was a welcome change, because usually my
daughter wakes me up and so I'msleeping in her bed.
Speaker 6 (04:31):
So this was a wonderful moment of waking up
alone.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
The first song I played today after the classical
music to like just wake up thespace a little bit, was I think
it was Joy by Andy Grammer,which is this like We call it a
driving song.
It's like a Can you sing?
Try to change their.
Well, actually I was singingthe next song after it, so I
(04:54):
know my brain's going.
I found Joy and she opened upmy eyes, something like that,
and I played it again forJasmine to wake her up.
I went in and I was like, comeon, babe, this is about a parent
who loves their kids so much.
She was just sleeping.
She was just sleeping, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
What's the classical Like what's the Oh.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I just I was very I need to get regulated by soft
sounds.
Didn't always have this.
It might be like having twochildren post-pandemic, but my
mom always played classicalpiano as her way of chilling out
, and so for me it actually justlowers the frequency in the
home so that there's not toomany spikes of calling out and
(05:43):
claiming for mama's mind.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I have so much pride and love for people who find a
partner, make a partnership.
And I'm just curious, becauseyou're accountable to each other
, you probably don't agree oneverything.
I don't know what you tell me,but how do you find each other?
Speaker 6 (06:49):
How do you?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
stay together.
What keeps it humming?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
That's a great question because we've had other
folks that were pretty close tothe center and they've asked us
to like don't you guys getdisagreements, Don't?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
you this.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I feel like The first thing about it this past week
that I think.
Number one is trust.
We trust that we're in this forthe right reasons And if it
didn't feel right, we'd saysomething.
So that basic trustcommunication, there's no
backstories going on and there'sno passive business.
Number two is purpose We knowwhy we're doing what we're doing
.
And number three I would justsay is passion for it, like
(07:26):
really diving in and stillenjoying the process towards the
purpose with trust.
Gotta have that trust.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Yeah, i would say that, yeah, i would say we never
have.
We have multiple disagreements.
That's not true, but none ofit's ever been like a deal
breaker.
You know, one of us will bendin the end to whatever.
You know what I mean.
It's never a situation of like,well, i gotta have it this way,
(07:56):
or nothing at all.
It's like, okay, well, i'm notgonna fight this right now, i
don't agree, but I'm not gonnafight it.
I'm actually gonna go with it.
You know what I mean.
It's to say yes to mentality.
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Like a theater skill, yeah, yeah, and that's musical.
To me that's a microcosm ofmusical collaboration, which is
somebody's gotta leave right now, but that doesn't mean they
gotta leave the whole time.
You can pass it around, you cancollaborate.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, and we use that in our process of like somebody
throws paint on the wall And so, as song writers, like
sometimes the conversation youmight witness is well, this
isn't really done yet, andthere's a lot of like hamming
and hawing before an idea isshared, and I think we micro
dose that we don't do that bigtime.
We kind of just like how aboutthis?
(08:49):
And then the other person'slike hmm, okay, sometimes it's
like I don't know why, but let'sgo.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
Yeah, but let's go.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And so now what we find like as business partners
when we write music together, itgoes really fast.
Like yesterday we had acollaboration and somebody sent
us a song.
We finished the whole thing inprobably 45 minutes because we
just said we hit, told theengineer, press, record the
energy flows, and then we're allooh, i like what you did there.
And he actually wrote a wholevocal part off of my improv,
(09:24):
which both sound intentionallywoven together.
So it's pretty fun.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
I have a dumb question.
When you and I talked, i said Ilove improv, and then, as I
dove in and started to do someresearch, i was like, oh no, the
word is freestyle.
Oh, that's a good one, becauseyou come from an acting
background as well, and spokenwords.
So would you break that downfor?
Speaker 5 (09:49):
What like freestyle versus?
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, because to me improv isn't like theater
slapstick, It's like making up asong.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Like we could do it right here.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
And so that, and maybe that's just because I'm
musical rather than theater.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Right, i think it's all the same words.
You're just making pretty muchsomething out of nothing.
You're saying yes to everything.
Now, traditionally, rappers,when they freestyle, they have a
subject in their head andthey're trying to take you on a
(10:25):
journey as far as what they'retalking about.
As a freestyler, i usually lookaround and see what's happening
in the room and talk aboutthings that are on my mind.
Now, when you're doing theater,you're usually doing that with
someone else.
I haven't had many situationswhere you had to improv a
(10:46):
monologue.
You know what I mean, right,usually between people.
But a rapper can freestyle byhimself, but the best
experiences are when you're in acypher Freestyle with other
people Doing this thing for along while, trying to get my
(11:06):
podcast.
Be agile, yes, be a vocalist,not stay pissed about the world
that we're in, because I don'twant to miss all the love, the
shore, the break, the love andall that I got to do as I fly
from above like a dove And, yes,i got that trophy And I can say
everybody might just know me,they call me so Latif from the
(11:28):
Doremi.
It's like Doremi Fa.
You know me Now, it's just likethat And I bring that rap with
the rhythm of the soul thatmakes your hand clap, even
though it sounds like a snap, ido it just like that.
Give me a fist bump and I cancall it that.
So I do it like this And do notmiss things coming from the
agile vocalist.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Yeah, that's where I come from.
I come from, if anything.
I started making money withbeatboxing before anything.
Before I got acting jobs,before I got drumming jobs it
was beatboxing.
That was kind of people arelike I'll pay you for that.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Like, who was paying for that?
I'm super.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
I mean, at first it was like kind of like trades at
parties.
You got free drinks today,you're going to eat, you're
going to have party favors,you're.
You know, other times my groupwas an acapella group, the first
group.
We called ourselves FalloniusPunk, which I have my tattoo,
(12:33):
and we used to do like markets.
We go to San Luis Obispo and goto the street market and we
would bust and then we wouldcome home with bags of veggies
and Well, i cuz like nobody waslike tipping, but they're like
hey, man, take these cuties withyou.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
No, we were the one.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
Yeah, beat, rap like beats in your salad.
Yummy, fresh lunch balance,chopping mangoes, tomatoes, a
vitamin booster Halo, it's on myhead like I'm an angel, cuz you
know I say no to a cookie, eventhough that's how my name go.
Yellow, red and green Up in mydiet like a pepper rainbow.
Yummy, fresh, yummy, yummy foodup in my tummy.
Speaker 5 (13:17):
Spiritually wealthy wealthy, cuz you know we keep
the healthy so, yeah, i starteddoing that and then, like I did
Actually a couple TV shows whereI played like characters that
were beatbox centric, and then Igot into and then I started
getting hired to to Sound, liketo do sound for a place, compose
(13:37):
, like be the composer, butvocally.
So I started doing that becauseI started telling stories, with
beatboxing More like Foleystyle versus like just beats all
the time.
So just you know, creatingsoundscapes, things like that
and I moved from doing that toactually like Helping a whole
cast become the music.
(13:58):
So it started off like sittingin the back doing a play and
beatboxing, with a looper Doingthat type of stuff.
And then I was like, well, whydon't we use the bodies on the
stage to actually create thismusic?
Speaker 3 (14:11):
and Yeah, i was made by Foley because I just learned
about Foley artists right wherethey're Like for me eating the
same.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
Eating the same.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
You can't possibly set up with a soundstage and
have it sound good, right, right.
Speaker 5 (14:26):
So, yeah, I was doing that like Almost like the
Wizard of Oz behind the curtain,but the curtain was exposed And
, yeah, i saw that.
One of your questions was, uhWas about the Izzy, and that's
what I got the Izzy for was mycomposition, vocal composition,
yeah, and the cast sang all themusic.
Every bit of music and thatthing was came from us And it
(14:50):
was an awesome process.
I've been working with Banu TJoseph for years, since like
2003, and so I started off beinghis drummer, then I was the
band leader, mm-hmm, and then Iwas drumming and looping at the
same time and Music and thingslike that, yeah, always was like
the multiple guys like can makethe kids with my mouth, and
(15:15):
then You know what I mean I wasalways trying to do multiple
things at one time and, uh, thatwas the novelty of it And so,
or the virtuosity of it, youknow, uh, yeah, so That got
built up.
We got submitted for the is itdoor dunking award and got that,
got that composition award.
(15:35):
It was.
It was really nice, and stilldoing it not not with that group
of people, but still liketheaters is in us, and so We're
about to bring beat boxing backinto our show.
You know, and like you know,see, if you tell some stories
through beats and things likethat, or just get some Beats
going, you know, get the crowdDoing the beat and all that
(15:57):
stuff.
So yeah, that's that.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Did we answer?
how did you guys meet?
Speaker 5 (16:02):
Oh yeah, Yeah, kind of like through that stuff.
Okay then here we were.
Here.
We're both kind of like doingthis in the arts world, kind of
like knew so many of the samepeople, just didn't know it here
in the Bay, in the Bay, okay,yeah, san Francisco and uh, yeah
, and actually he was in a playcalled beat box, a rapperetta
(16:23):
with the philineas punk raprapperetta, you can tell what
that means.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
It was Completely breakthrough art for the world
and that was about 2000 okayokay, okay, but you didn't
really start.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Alphabet rocker still 2007.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
Yeah, okay, yeah, didn't even meet until then.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
You were running parallel, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know the music scene and the art scene is like
You know about each other, oreven if you don't, you're one
hand to shake away from eachother, so you're on the same
journey together.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, right.
Yeah why don't you so what wasin your world, as in that
parallel world, in the parallelworld at?
Speaker 4 (17:08):
the same Roughly the same time.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Where were you?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Well, i, i moved here , um to san francisco in 2000.
I graduated from Hullwood and Ireally was running away from
that experience.
To be honest, um, i was alwaysan artist, i was always an
activist theater, music,everything and That space was
(17:32):
about limits and, um, not aboutfreedom of heart and and
expression.
So I was like, well, maybe oneof my friends moved here.
So I was like, maybe I'll go to.
That's really how I got here.
It was like, let's see if it'sactually an inclusive space like
I read about In the.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
You know, the history of the bay here, activism Yeah
and so that's what drew me here.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
But what kept me here was that there was a freedom,
space of expression like I.
I appreciated every element ofit, from like being in drag
shows to wild theater, to Coverbands and open mic nights.
I did everything dance troops,i did literally everything.
And why not when you're youknow that's, that's part of like
(18:20):
, the bravery of like Justexploring, like life.
I never asked people what doyou do for a living?
I say what, what's motivatingyou're like, what do you do to
enjoy your life?
I'm still kind of like that Inany case along the road I
started noticing that, likeCertain artistic efforts took so
much time and focus And they'donly go up for one show, and so
(18:42):
I'd be like, okay, so thetheater process in the Bay Area
unless you're in a touring show,like Tom was talking about like
you basically put in like amonth, two months, and then you
have like two days because thetheater is so expensive to run.
And so I started feeling likeman, that's it.
It didn't feel like I got toreally go too deep into the
(19:03):
performance space And then itwas just already like cast party
and done.
I was like this doesn't feelright.
So then I was like what aboutthis dance troupe?
Let me go hard on the dancetroupe.
So we did that, went all the wayto Vegas.
Tons of stuff, same thing.
That was like we'd put probably12 hours a week in rehearsal
For like a five minuteperformance or whatever it is
Formed, a pride for all theseplaces.
(19:24):
And that too, i was just likewait, there's gotta be something
else, like where you would, allthe time you put in, you can
still play with elements andadapt it.
And so I started that actuallylike unlocked me and to music
was.
I'd always been a player Andsinger, but um, we turned out to
have the same mentor, which isDwayne Caliza, who um was and
(19:47):
just a source of like Everythinggood on the planet truth and
light, oh my gosh, pure, likebeing around, like holy energy,
like truly like one of the mostloving, beautiful voices.
We found out later, i think,actually, when Dwayne passed,
that He was like both of our.
(20:08):
You know, he was an anchor forboth of us.
Y'all were in a show.
We were in a different showtogether.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Yeah, we were in a show together and he was vocal
coaching me all the way throughand never stopped.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Okay, so we were we were in a show together.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
And I was.
I had gone to audition for itand then I was like, oh my gosh,
can I study voice with you?
I'm just like, of course wentto his beautiful home, which was
like being inside of Like ashelf of precious things, like
everything was magnetic andbeautiful and Like there were
stories just bustling in everycorner.
And I remember he sat therejust playing this chord on the
(20:41):
guitar, waiting for me to writemy first song.
He just sat there staring And Iwas like, oh my gosh, i feel so
.
It was so uncomfortable, but itwas safe at the same time, like
writing your first anythinglike sure, We're just jumping
and you don't know where it'sgonna be.
You need to know you're gonna besafe right.
And after going through like ahard way experience where you're
not good enough, you're notgonna get into the show, you're
(21:04):
not gonna be accepted, to havesomeone just sit there and be
like I'm not actually gonna goanywhere and I'm not looking at
the clock, let's write a song.
So, anyways, that was how Istarted writing music and that
just then, i just followed it,because anytime you write
something, it's not the end ofit.
You have to like then see whereit goes.
And even now, with the songsthat we created in 2016, we're
(21:25):
still look, we like remix themor we think about elements of
them that still serve us today.
How can we make it still feelvibrant to us, like we're not?
it's not a one and donesituation.
So, that's kind of my journey inspiritual life.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
We fall.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
The shift between sort of you know, pre-k
educational and then the shiftto art for change.
Do you want to talk a littlebit about that and how the kids
can do it?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Totally.
I mean, I feel like it's.
I feel like the music westarted with was art for change,
for why?
we were doing it because reallylike educators weren't seeing
everybody in the classroom withopen energy and eyes.
They weren't acknowledging thateveryone was brilliant, and so
there was an element of us beinglike well, if we make the music
(22:40):
for you that makes learningfeel vibrant, you'll see that
the children you missed arelistening actually Like, because
music, even if they're notphysical expressors, you can
tell when people like there'sdifferent ways of learning.
So we were excited about thatin performances too.
Like we knew what it was to gointo a space like make no
(23:02):
mistake, we were getting themost racist things said to us by
librarians, educators, parentsabout hip hop, which is just
anti blackness in a differentsort of words.
You know what are you going touse?
language that's appropriate forchildren?
It's like it's that is a signalto us that you actually are
just harvesting anti blacknessin the way you hold space.
(23:25):
So that was how we entered it.
So then it's like what are yougoing to do with that?
Are you going to have the whitewoman of the duo be like hey,
y'all that's on?
you Like, yeah, we do, we.
I mean, we experiment with allof it.
You have the black male artistsof the two say Hey, can let me
explain hip hop to you.
It's this we're not catering to, like people who aren't doing
(23:45):
the work, because then it's justlike I don't know.
It's like serving up a platterthey didn't even want And
they're not necessarily the oneswe're cooking for.
You know, basic analogy.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
I also know that both of us were already working with
kids before we, before we met,i was a teaching artist, but
teaching elements of hip hopwith a group of people.
The best case scenarios when weall went into a school and
taught five different classesand then go to the next element,
(24:18):
like teach a whole school,every element.
So we go into class I was thebeat guy, the drums and rhythm,
and then I would someone elsewould be teaching graffiti and
DJing and rapping in differentplaces, but then the rapper
would come to this class and welike in a full day, get all the
(24:39):
elements into all these classes.
And so we were doing that.
I think when we met, my wifehad just gotten pregnant And so
still hadn't had a kid quite yet.
We started performing togetherbut just were really into kids
And I think that, like, as faras music, i felt like we were
(25:02):
feeling a void musically.
I remember when musicians cometo my class they always came
with a harmonica or a banjo or aguitar and they were strong and
we'd be singing songs that werekind of boring to me.
It wasn't my jam, like helpingme learn.
(25:23):
You know what I mean, and so weknew that a lot of Bayard kids
were, you know, would do this ifthey heard a beat, you know.
And so we're like, yeah, man,let's bring hip hop into this
place and really expose it as afreedom, culture and an
aesthetic, a life aesthetic,versus just this music, you know
.
And so we start bringing theaesthetics of belonging, of
(25:48):
being in circle, of gettingputting your voice out there,
and yeah.
So without really knowing thatthat's what we're doing.
I'm looking back at it andthat's exactly what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
There's also, like in this hip hop, ciphers that we
created in classrooms andlibraries.
wherever there's a powerdynamic that's immediately
questioned versus somebody witha guitar might say this is your
part only Like, right, thisisn't shaming guitar players at
all.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Yeah, i mean I'm just trying to be sure.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
In fact, there's something quite radical in the
framework of inclusion thatalready is happening musically.
Even if we weren't to sayanything about the world, it's
already happening, But we madethe change because people are
not making there's what werealize is like we're doing it
all in the heart space, So it'smodeled, you're experiencing it,
(26:42):
but we needed the words toactually line up a few more
things, particularly forgrownups, and there were
conversations that we had tohave backstage about power and
race and gender, everything.
We were already doing thatbecause we're human and that's
who we are, And we said seemslike we might want to
(27:04):
investigate doing this in themusic itself.
And then that's when we kind ofwe had to go really deep into
it before we even wrote a song,though, because it's Yeah,
before we pressed record oranything, we dove deep into it.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
I know that we were also experiencing other
children's experiences.
They trusted us to tell ustheir experiences.
My son, of course, trusts me.
He came home and said another,a mixed kid had said the N word,
(27:42):
told him we are these ends, buthe also told him that he wasn't
Mexican, which he is, he'sblack and Mexican.
So we had to have this wholerewiring of what he thought when
he came home And that was oneof the impetuses for us to start
(28:04):
writing.
In that way.
We took it from the classroomto the playground And the
playground was saying yellows,there's biases happening And
there's bullying happening, notjust physical bullying, there's
all these things happening.
And so we definitely weresetting out to try to make music
(28:24):
to empower folks on theplayground And then we were like
okay, well, it goes, biggerthan a playground, where do you
leave?
when you leave the playground,you go home, and we tried to
bring it to the home to get theparents involved in.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
And it got me thinking about bullying, because
I started being like bullyingis so connected to white
supremacy because it is adynamic of power and violence
that gets condoned, And so Ithought about that And I was
like, well, how can anybody do abullying show that doesn't talk
(29:29):
about racism, gender and powerand systems?
And that's still a questionbecause many people are doing it
.
It's just more like don't bully.
Bullies is bad.
But really, when I thoughtabout what happened years ago
for little Tommy and his friendat school and the educators, if
(29:51):
you are silent in these momentsand you don't actually know what
to do, you can actually justcreate a ripple pattern of a
future of silent violence in theschools that you just say, well
, it looks like you guys workedit out, But really, it didn't,
it just got swept in enough thatit's like that's not my problem
(30:13):
And I'll be fine whether or notyou address it.
My job is fine, my classroomlooks fine, but then the same
patterns start getting woveninto, like well, that just
happens to that kid.
I don't know why that kid's somad all the time.
You know like these are like.
I'm saying like little thingsthat happen and black boys are
(30:35):
targeted, peers and black girls,but we are watching it all the
time.
It happens very quickly.
You can sit down in circle andsomebody will target the black
boy And I'm this is this yearmore intensely than previous
years of our lives.
So I'm just like, when we talkabout this silence, if it's not
(30:56):
investigated and it's reallylike, it's really harmful and it
hurts everyone who loves blackpeople honestly included.
I'm just saying it hurt, it isharmful to be around because
that means that somebody's needsare not being met and it's
being condoned and patterned.
I don't know.
Just want to say that, say thatIt's really, that's an endemic.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yeah, it's a disrespect Someone's.
yeah, you're not all feelingsafe and comfortable and
respected and sentient being.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And if you just like, truly, aren't talking about it
in your family or in yourclassroom or in your lunch
breaks, you know you just wantto take a break.
take your break, but gotta dosomething better, because I'm
watching children literally sitdown having done nothing and get
hit Like I'm.
physically, there's somethinghappening spiritually in our
(31:56):
planet that is like it's worse.
I will just say that.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
What would you say?
that's over a period of.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
I just I feel that there's like our children are
holding all of our fear and ourexhaustion and our
disappointment, and our hope too.
Like all of it, but like we gotto investigate and like the
joyfulness, the love and theexperiences.
And then the investigation oflike why is life easier for you
and your white body?
(32:27):
Like question that What are youcondoning So?
Speaker 5 (32:31):
Right, not asking you that question.
asking you to ask that question, yeah, thank you, yeah, yeah,
yeah, can I?
Speaker 4 (32:41):
just be.
Can you just see me?
Can I just be a child?
Did you know I have me?
Do you have children?
Do you have family?
Do you want to know me?
Hold on to your back.
(33:19):
Outdoor music plays.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Because what happens is like people will dial up
their energy around like MartinLuther King Day, actually, or
now around Juneteenth, but ithas to be like in every day,
like while you're preparing thekids lunch, whatever the thing
is like, and that's the, that'sthe tiring part of like living
in the United States And that iswhy many like black people are
(33:50):
like we got to go find a placewhere we can just live and not
be toxic all the time, feel thetoxicity of this environment.
So when you're like the littlebits along the way and yes, we
actually also celebrate like thesmall moves, because if you're
in tune with your family andyour children, like you can,
they'll recall a small moviemade weeks ago, right, they
(34:13):
recall.
Oh, remember how you likewhatever it is.
Remember how we had bubblesthat time.
The same way they mightremember Remember how we talked
about like if this is to happenat school, what you do or how it
felt.
Remember how we talked about ourmelanin and how our melanin is
actually getting more activatedin this in the sunshine right
(34:34):
now.
Like whatever it is.
Like.
I'm white, my children aremixed heritage, indian white,
and their skin is darker thanmine And it is also lighter than
their dads.
So we're all going to havedifferent vantage points to
talking about our skin and skinprivilege and all of the parts
(34:55):
of my mind.
(35:24):
In terms of freestyling, and I'mnot a rapper.
I'm, but I like to play games.
We can play games in this way,like wordplay That's.
I mean, that's a fundamentaltool of writing and rapping, but
I would not say Hey man, let meget in on that Also.
It's like I feel like I get thesame energy by being in circle,
(35:47):
and so there's a question oflike do you need to flex And is
it like, or can you just holdspace with each other?
Speaker 3 (35:54):
What do you mean by flex?
Speaker 1 (35:55):
like flex, as in let's say, yeah, get you know in
the circle.
Do you need to?
is this your time where youneed to express and have people
hear you?
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
God, like I'm going to.
There's times in my life whereI feel like I need to be heard
And I'm conscious of that.
I think I have it right here,like a trumpet that blows.
Like the amount of energy thatgoes into a trumpet to even get
a sound right, that is likethat's a symbol to me.
And in our community I don'talways need to be heard because
(36:24):
the purpose of what we're doingis to create space for voices to
be heard.
It's not my fault.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
I'm very conscious of when we step up and step back.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Right, and that's I mean putting the kids in the
front.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Yeah, yeah.
we've given them like sincethey were about eight.
we've really set them up with alot of different experiences,
whether it be their firstperformance at the Bay Area Book
Festival or we just, like they,did the songs that we've been
doing.
They were so nervous and soexcited And we were like, oh my
gosh, we're like little stageparents you know Parents.
But they're writing too.
(37:03):
And then the writing, likereally nourishing them, and I
think it's important to like tosay this like for any flower of
a child that wants to grow,their family needs to be
invested in them And to writethese songs or these poems in
this way.
The most successful versions ofit that we see is when a parent
(37:24):
is listening with them, notjust the, even though this
includes his son you knowoutsiders, right.
But like the parent says likeno go, you got this.
Like, and that's what our threewriters have done, their
parents are with them.
And even like we just did awhole program with young
songwriters, budding songwriters, eight to 11 years old,
(37:45):
movement, and actually we calledit And we told them like,
express yourselves, how do youfeel powerful?
They wrote it down.
Now take it home and share itwith them.
We love you the most and see ifthere's something else to add
to your poem.
And it was fertile because theycame back proud.
But also like there's analignment that happened when the
(38:06):
parent says yes And also goesdeeper, so they're not saying
you know, just, i'm powerfulwhen I'm a external validation.
External validation like I'm agreat soccer player.
We see this when we go to likeprivileged communities.
It'll be like what makes youfeel powerful.
I play soccer.
I'm good at math.
I'm good at this, i'm good atthis, and it's all these things
where people have told themthey're good And what we notice
(38:29):
underneath there is, if you askand you keep asking, you listen.
In a certain way, i feelpowerful when I'm on my
skateboard, because nothing canstop me.
That's actually the nothing canstop me part.
It's not the act of being goodat something, it's actually the
feeling.
And what are you doing And like, what about it?
So that's how we write with theyoung people and their families
(38:50):
as well, and but you know thesethree youngsters that we did
this last album with.
Speaker 5 (38:56):
We did something different and took it a step
further and, like you know, gottheir ass capped and got their
setup on sound exchange so theycan collect royalties in the
future, set them up with coogingaccounts, so like any money
they make is going to them whenthey turn 18, like that type of
(39:16):
stuff, and taught them a littlebit about the business of it,
because I think they all threethink they're going to be
artists in the world, whetherit's going to be singing or
rapping or playing saxophone orwhatever band they play in, they
still want to be artists.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
You know, yeah, that's awesome.
What are the challenges ofmusic as a family affair or what
are the unique strengths ofthat as you're working together?
Is it different than when, then, your your collaborations,
you've done with other artistswho you're not?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
All right.
Well, we do our best to try totreat each other like a co
worker.
No ready, This is a dad to theson type of situations.
Right, I would say that goesacross the board for anything,
except for you know some point.
You got to be a parent, but youdon't always got to be the
parent You know, but sometimesthey don't know enough yet for
(40:16):
you to like kind of let themroll on some things.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (40:19):
You know it gets tough sometimes.
I have to stay silent and likenot argue with him.
He genuinely feels like he'sbetter than me.
He like at least once a week.
he's like that.
I feel like I'm a bettersaxophone player than you were,
(40:40):
a drummer than you are, and I'mlike battling him.
Yeah, yeah, and he's like Ithink I'm better at music than
you are And I'm like youprobably are, because you're
learning theory and I neverlearned theory.
There is in my head, you know,but you actually know what it is
.
So, yeah, you're probablybecoming a you know, a more
astute musician than me, but Ihave so many years of playing
(41:01):
music and doing music that youcan't possibly be better than me
.
And you know, and I have tostop doing that because he just
doesn't believe it.
He just doesn't believe it Andme and my wife are always like
dang dude, he doesn't.
He really thinks he's betterthan you.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
It's so different because, like Maya, for example,
if we're like she's the youngwoman of the group, i just I
know she's better than me Andshe has no interest in trying to
like, she doesn't need to knowthat, right, we pour it into her
(41:41):
.
You're about how talented sheis.
We try to do everything we canfor her to fly, And she
understands that it's not abouther as an individual.
And so when you ask about whatit is to be a family affair of
music, it really is about thecollective space that we do.
And if somebody wants to comeinto the mix and be a soloist in
a way, let me get mine.
(42:03):
Whatever it is, let me get myGrammy with you.
It's not really the right, it'snot going to work out Right.
Right, it's not really theright intention.
But what's fun about makingmusic with people that we've
known for what 10 years?
Dancers, djs.
We take care of each other'skids.
There's co parenting when we'rein community holding each
(42:24):
other's babies.
Bring your baby on tour with us.
We've asked you.
There's like you never gohungry, like people bring food
for you, like there's ways thatare so non transactional, that
are just like watering the rootsof what is like the forest that
we are.
We share water, we sharesunlight.
Speaker 5 (42:42):
Yeah, And it's not a situation where you just drop
your kid off and right.
And you know, and then they'rewith us now you're welcome to be
here too, Like you're invited,And organically that happened.
Like parents, my parents,colleagues, parents use like
when we all started off together, they were like, yeah, man,
we're gonna stay, like we'rehere, Like, and that became a
(43:04):
thing you know was that like abuilt in audience?
I wouldn't say that it was justmore of a support system.
I think And the music iswritten.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
We're all healing ourselves as we do this, like
it's not, like we show up to astudio session, like we're about
to live this good life.
We're like I'm hurting, let'smake something with this.
You know, and even if it's noton that topic, like you're in
space with vibrations singingsinging again.
You sound so beautiful, people.
(43:37):
Like it's healing who we are,is a grown-ups, it's healing our
childhood.
So when the parents come andthey're not like the ones on
stage, they're like I need thisactually.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
Like I needed that song today.
Speaker 5 (43:49):
I'm being sad, I don't.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
it's okay, if I've heard it before, i need to hear
it right now, because wherewe're existing is for the future
, and so sometimes people don'teven know we're here in this way
, but people who are do or likemore please pull up close, like
you know that you saw it firsthand.
You're like what is this, right?
I mean, it made you want totalk to us.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
Yeah, You know we got .
I'm gonna to pick a little bittrumpet.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Do you play trumpet?
Speaker 1 (44:22):
No, she does, in her mind It's more about this
instrument reflects a block tome.
Like a block, yes, because theamount of air you need to
support to even get the soundout beautifully, it's like.
It's a.
It's like it's a.
it's magical to me The word Iplay clarinet.
(44:45):
clarinet does not take thatlevel of like intensity for me
Stay windy.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
I was going to say that there's people without kids
that come to our shows.
Yes, sit there and cry.
Sit there and cry Like not yourschool shows, but like you know
, freight and salvage.
Right, absolutely.
Different venues, SF jazz.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
They're like people have come out, Yeah, just divide
They don't even have kids.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
They might be aunties and uncles and things like that
, but they didn't bring theirnieces and nephews with them.
They came just to vibe, youknow, which is awesome.
That's awesome.
What do you call it, marker?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
And there's teachers, like we've done this, where we
do exactly what we're talkingabout.
We're talking about energetic,intentional music, where the
teachers in the schools are soinvested or you'll see the like
custodian in the back of theirarm, just like yes, part, yeah,
and they like kind of lose alittle bit of their like place
on like what their activity was,because they're they're served
(45:49):
Right.
That's not all.
If you get this, if you get thesound engineer, the custodian
or like front of house toactually leave what they're
doing to come in and see what'shappening, you know, you did
your job as a musician.
Speaker 5 (46:01):
Yeah, lunch lady stops doing this stuff And you
know what?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
There's some schools where they're like we made you
some food.
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 4 (46:11):
It doesn't sound powerful.
Speaker 5 (46:13):
It is Sound and message, and then the measure of
fame becomes like really coolbecause people are like are you
famous?
I'm like, yeah, heck famous,you know what I mean.
Like you'll be out and I wasdoing a event, a library event.
It was like a like a late nightevent, and there are people on
third like it's like an openatrium spot, but you could see
(46:35):
the floors and there was someoneon the third floor like on some
like yo alphabet rockers, and Iwas like, hey, what's up there
Like Diamond District library,and you know what I mean.
Like like the other, like that,they're like yo.
I know you.
We went to a high school.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
Now, when we say we make music for children and
families, high school was notour target audience, high
schoolers I'm pulling up and Iwas like I hope they know, like
that, we know, you know, theymeant to book us Right.
I was like, oh my God, taylorSwift, you know, came on And I
was like Hey, can we takepictures of you?
(47:14):
I was like, yeah, yeah, it wasbananas Grown up, grown up kids.
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