September 3, 2025 • 26 mins
Chris reveals why your sales outreach isn't getting results: the shocking truth is that the bar for effective sales communication has never been lower. While most sellers obsess over volume and automation, they're missing what truly captures attention: pattern disruption.
Studying the world's most persuasive communicators led Chris to develop "eloquence formulas" – strategic combinations of literary devices that make your messages impossible to ignore. Your brain filters out 90% of the patterns it encounters daily, which explains why most sales messages go unnoticed. The key to breaking through isn't just being different – it's being eloquently different.
Dive into powerful rhetorical devices like anaphora (repeating words at successive beginnings), sententia (universal truths), and the rule of three that have influenced audiences throughout history. These aren't just academic concepts; they're practical tools that transform forgettable outreach into compelling communication. Watch as Chris demonstrates how to turn a generic email into three distinctive, high-impact messages using his formula approach.
The conversation also explores how to leverage AI tools effectively by creating custom projects loaded with buyer persona details and prompting for specific literary frameworks. Unlike basic AI users who simply ask for generic outputs, sophisticated communicators push these tools to explore thousands of rhetorical devices and test combinations for maximum impact.
What separates mediocre sellers from exceptional ones isn't just persistence – it's having a bold point of view. Too many sales professionals hide behind permission-based language instead of confidently presenting insights and solutions. Ready to elevate your sales communication? Start breaking patterns, embrace eloquence, and watch your response rates soar.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
People ask me like well, jake, you know our
outbound or something isn'tworking.
And I'm like the bar is so lowtoday, like people are just,
like we're so obsessed with likevolume, and so it's like we
want to look for these verysimple, easy mass volume things.
And it's not that you can't dosome amount of pattern
disruption, like at scale to say, but I just feel like the bar
(00:21):
is so low right now.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And it's like if you trust her a little different.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You know, it's like if you can actually just show
like you did a little researchor again some type of a video or
something, it's like you know,send a voice note on LinkedIn or
something right now for anybodylistening.
If you're like a top two or 3%,you're like I'm just going to
do pattern, disrupt stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
There's two different types of people who use AI.
There's the people who open itup and use it to get answers to
things and maybe craft tons ofcold sales emails, whatever.
And then there's the peoplethat build custom projects and
load it up with a bunch ofknowledge about who the target
audience is and the problemsthey're solving for them, the
(01:02):
problems they're facing.
Who they are as a person.
Maybe you know are they a dad?
Are they not a dad?
Like who is your targetaudience as the most important
thing, and creating salesmessages with GPT, having all
that information in a customproject and then repeating in
your prompts.
Leverage, like specificdocuments in the project.
(01:23):
Knowledge, because it helps tohave a project knowledge, but
getting really good at promptingand making sure that it's using
specific documents that youwant it to in the project
knowledge is really, reallyimportant to get the right
output.
Ask Claude and GPT what aresome great literary devices,
rhetorical devices andstorytelling frameworks that I
can use to speak to thisaudience.
(01:44):
It'll give you a list and thething is, what I found,
especially with these literaryframeworks, is GPT and Claude.
They only go as deep as you go.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
AI-powered seller.
All right, chris, welcome tothe show man.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, thank you, Jake .
Super excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
All right.
Well, this should be fun.
Chris has this eloquenceformula detail that we're going
to dive into.
And look, you've studied thecommunication and language
patterns right of a lot of youknow what people would consider
some of the most effectivecommunicators, right, people are
able to get their persuasivecommunicators.
Tell me you know, in particular, like what were some of like
(02:21):
the common themes andparticularly for all my sales,
you know people out there whatare some of like the big
takeaways when it comes to salesoutreach today and you know
ways that people can utilizewhat you've learned in outreach
and sales in general.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, you know, when it comes to, uh, sales and using
the art of language, you knowI've read over a dozen books on
communication and language and,hands down, you know the people
who change the world, who makean impact.
Those are primarily throughouthistory, what you have recorded
(03:00):
are usually presidents, worldleaders and people like that are
usually presidents, worldleaders and people like that,
and so a lot of these books thatI've gone over really dive into
the psychology of why what theysaid worked.
Because, for example, you know,when we had to go into World
War, two people had to be verypersuasive as to why we had to
(03:22):
join it.
Obviously, there was a US shipthat was attacked and shouldn't
have been.
But no matter what goes on inthe world, people react in
different ways and a leaderalways emerges and says
something that persuades peopleand gets them on board with what
(03:45):
their ultimate goal is.
When you think about sales,your ultimate goal is more than
likely, building a relationship,but also conversion.
By doing so, providing value.
The biggest theme that I'veseen recurring throughout
(04:06):
history and there's a lot aboutproven psychology around this is
pattern interruption.
So every single day, your brainis filtering through everything
it sees, whether you're drivingdown the road and looking at
billboards, listening to apodcast, whatever it is, your
(04:26):
brain ignores 90% of thepatterns that it sees Right,
it's just filtering through.
Yeah, and say, for example,there was one day I was it was
funny I was back from vacationlooking through my emails and I
said, how did I just get 500unread emails?
This is insanity.
(04:47):
And I was like, you know, I'mjust going to run through this
for an hour and just deleteeverything, right, basically,
but I do need to make sure thatI don't miss anything important.
And that's when I was like,okay, well, well, this is also
pattern recognition.
How good am I at recognizingcold outreach emails, deleting
(05:08):
them versus emails that areimportant?
And, as a salesperson, that, Ifeel like, is the most important
thing, is if you can breakpatterns.
That's what gets the mind topay attention.
And it could even be startingoff an email with a subject line
(05:30):
with something different thatyou don't usually, for example,
because ABC, usually sentencesdon't start with because so
anything that you can basicallyhack.
If you want to hack the brain'sattention, you have to break a
pattern that it's used to right.
So back to you know, throughouthistory it's pattern pattern
(05:54):
eruption has always been, uh, awinning formula.
But then, on the flip side,there's, for example, the rule
of three saying three thingssuccessively can be extremely
powerful.
So there's different patternsthat the brain does recognize
and responds to.
(06:16):
But for the most part it'spattern interruption.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Interesting.
Yeah, I think it's soapplicable today.
I feel people ask me, like youknow well, Jake, you know our
outbound or something isn'tworking and I'm like the bar is
so low today, Like people arejust, like we're so obsessed
with like volume, and so it'slike we want to look for these
very simple, easy mass volumethings.
(06:40):
And it's not that you can't dosome amount of pattern
disruption, like at scale to say, but I just feel like the bar
is so low right now and it'slike if you just are a little
different, you know like it'slike like if you can actually
just show, like you did a littleresearch or again, some type of
video or something, it's likeyou know, send a voice note on
LinkedIn or something Like Ijust feel that right now, for
(07:02):
anybody listening, I really feellike everybody should.
If you're a top 2% or 3%,you're like, I'm just going to
do pattern disrupt stuff.
I'm just going to send apersonalized video.
I'm going to do this thing I'mgoing to start a subject line
with because, and as a part ofthis, you develop these
eloquence formulas.
This is a very Chris thing,which is pretty.
(07:25):
It's a pretty interesting topic.
So why don't you just talk alittle bit about, like, where
did this come from?
Like, so again, so, patterndisruption, you know, is kind of
this kind of core theme thatyou had, you know, took away and
I think it's just, I think it'smore applicable today than ever
.
But where did this eloquenceformula kind of concept come
from?
And maybe just explain a littlebit about the different, you
know, formulas?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
we have to go into each one, but just maybe at a
high level yeah, so at a highlevel, what I've created as
eloquence formulas, what theyare, are literary devices, also
known as rhetorical devices,stacked on top of each other.
So, for example, anaphora is aliterary device, and when I say
(08:06):
stack them, you say, for example, anaphora in the first sentence
, followed by a euphemism in thesecond sentence, followed by.
So basically, you're stackingdifferent literary devices, and
a literary device is basicallyan English literature method or
(08:29):
a way of writing that is provento persuade, engage and convert.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Okay, For all that's out there, what is anaphora?
I'm sorry I will, as my salesbrain break it down for me.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Funny.
You ask Jake Anaphora.
It's the repetition of a wordor phrase at the beginning of
successive clauses, and what itdoes is it creates rhythm and
reinforces a core message.
So an example would be yourbrain has potential, your brain
has power, your brain has astory waiting to be told.
So you're beginning each set.
They're short sentences.
(09:02):
You're beginning each set.
They're short sentences, butyou're beginning each one with
the same word.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
All right.
And there's also like anaphoraparadigms, which shows contrast
between choices whilereinforcing the core value.
So it's like we buildstrategies that grow brands, we
build campaigns that inspireloyalty, we build futures for
businesses like yours.
So it's like slightly differentfrom its Anaphora versus
Anaphora paradigm, so you canadd different words to, for
(09:33):
example, a literary frameworkand expands its capability even
further.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
All right, you've learned something now today An
Fora as a part of this, and soso talk a little bit about like
how you know cause I want totalk about in the sales process
and other areas too.
I mean, look you're, you'redeep into the.
You know kind of this new.
You know the new, I'll call itthe new SEO, right, which is the
.
You know how do I show up inLLMs, right, that's like you're
kind of jam too, because I wantto talk about that.
(10:02):
You know, if we're talking aboutlike cold outreach, right, and
you know getting in front ofpeople, I think it's too, it's
you know, it's like you don'twant to sound marketing
messaging, you know, and I thinkwhat you just mentioned, like
that I don't see a lot of peopledoing that for cold outreach.
You know that's like boom, boom, boom or doing some type of
like relevancy base.
So you know what does it looklike for cold outreach?
So this type of you know kindof using these patterns, using
(10:24):
this disrupt, what are thethings that if I'm, you know, a
seller, I'm listening to this.
How can I apply this to kind ofcut through right, so, using
this, and maybe we can get intosome like practical examples as
well, too.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, so I use GPT and Cloud a lot for breaking
down which rhetorical deviceswill work best in specific
messages.
Personalization is extremelyimportant, so understanding who
you're speaking to, whatproblems that you're solving for
them, what issues they'recurrently facing.
(10:58):
Timing is extremely relevant aswell.
So really understanding yourtarget audience, your target
customer, and we always you knowa lot of people will.
There's two different types ofpeople who use AI.
There's the people who open itup and use it to get answers to
(11:20):
things and maybe craft tons ofcold sales emails, whatever.
And then there's the peoplethat build custom projects and
load it up with a bunch ofknowledge about who their target
audience is and the problemsthey're solving for them, the
problems they're facing, whothey are as a person Maybe are
they a dad, are they not a dad?
(11:42):
Who is your target audience?
that is the most important thingand when creating sales
messages with GPT, having allthat information in a custom
project and then repeating inyour prompts, leverage specific
documents in the projectknowledge because, it helps to
(12:04):
have a project knowledge, butgetting really good at prompting
and making sure that it's usingspecific documents that you
want it to in the projectknowledge is really, really
important to get the rightoutput.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and then how do , when you think about so, for
those of you who don't know oraren't using projects and we can
talk about maybe quickly, youknow your take on using like
assistance or custom GBTs versusprojects, I think there's kind
of like use cases for both.
You know, I have a project.
It's like my personalnutritionist, like health plan
doctor, so it's got my bloodwork, it's got my food allergies
(12:37):
, it's got like you know, I'mdoing keto, so it's got like all
the things.
So every day I upload thevitals, it says this this is the
kind of day we're going to have, this is the workout.
And I think it's the exact sameidea where it's like hey, with
a project and I was talking tothe head of enterprise sales at
OpenAI and they do projects onevery new account, so like
basically, it's like okay, sowe're trying to penetrate ABC,
(12:59):
so they're uploading thedocuments, et cetera.
They're uploading.
You know, here's who we'remeeting with, call transcripts,
you know all of that.
And so for those of you whohaven't been using projects, I
would highly recommend usingprojects.
Claude's also really goodprojects around, like content
writing I've found, inparticular, like LinkedIn posts
and blog posts and things likethat.
So if I have a project that'sgot my buyer persona and I'm a
(13:21):
sales rep and again we'll kindof like walk through the sales
process, so for cold outreach,how should I think about that?
Right?
So, using some of theseeloquence formulas coupled with
okay, I created a project, I'vetold it, okay, here's my buyer
persona.
I've said, here's the productsthat I sell.
I'm trying to get a meetingwith Chris, right.
Then how can I use it?
Or how do I think about if I'msomebody who wants to apply this
(13:42):
to cold outbound, using some ofthe eloquence formula structure
, to then use the project togenerate the right type of
messaging?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, so when you're building out these custom
projects, the first thing youwant to do is ask Claude and GPT
.
You know what are some greatliterary devices, rhetorical
devices and storytellingframeworks that I can use to
speak to this audience?
(14:11):
It'll give you a list and thething is, what I found
especially with these literaryframeworks is GPT and Claude.
They only go as deep as you go.
So you'll probably get the 10most basic rhetorical devices
that you probably heard andit'll be like these are great.
And then you'll test them andbe like what are you even
(14:33):
talking about?
Right, because the thing isliterary devices and rhetorical
frameworks.
They've been used for thousandsthroughout centuries, primarily
in political speech, writingand poetry, not so much in
marketing.
So that's where you have to kindof dig deeper and say okay,
(14:53):
give me a list of 15 that startwith A, and then it'll start to
pop up with new ones that itnever gave you before and you're
like, okay, that's good, giveme 15 that start with A-N,
because there's thousands outthere.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Okay, interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And just asking it for rhetorical devices and
storytelling frameworks.
Every time it's only going togive you the most basic common
ones.
That's when you have to startdigging deeper and asking more
questions and getting a veryspecific okay, give me more with
A, b, now give me some with Z,now give me some with Y, and we
(15:33):
have a library of thousands ofthem, so you can get a ton.
And then what you want to do istest a specific one with say
okay, now use those 15 that yougave me to rewrite this first
sentence of the sales email.
And then you can pick out andsay, okay, well, that one
actually.
Wow, that did a really good job.
Wow, that rewrote very well.
(15:55):
Okay, I'm going to store thisone.
And then you start buildingyour document on all the ones
that you've seen.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
That are winners.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
That are winners correct, and out of the
thousands out there, there'sprobably 500 that I use on a
consistent basis.
I know it's a lot, but 500 thatI love.
No matter how I use them, theywork wonders.
But, like I said before, italso does have to do with who
your target audience is, Becauseyou don't want to use a device
that's demanding.
If you're, say, in healthcareand say it's B2C, You're
(16:31):
reaching out to people who needto reschedule an appointment,
Well, you don't want to say youknow your health is at risk,
like right off the bat, thatmight scare somebody.
Like sure it can grab theirattention, but is that really
how you want to speak?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
to somebody.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
It really depends on who your target audience is.
When you're testing thesedifferent devices, you want to
take all your favorites and thenstart stacking them and say,
okay, now give know 20 pairs outof these 200.
I just need pair sets of twofor two sentences, and so once
(17:12):
you start doing that, then youcan start building, and an
eloquence formula are multipledevices stacked on top of each
other, right, so it could beanywhere from two to 20.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Right, are there go-tos?
So you got Anafor.
Like what are your two?
What have you seen?
Like, what are your go-toliteratures?
Like you know, like are theresome?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I mean there's obviously 15.
So semiotic triangulation andSententia.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, please.
Okay, let's go one by one here.
Okay, tell me, semiotictriangulation Is that what we're
going?
Okay, all right, you guys aregoing to have to chat to me to
do that, yeah, um, and thensententia, and sententia is
basically like a universal truth.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So, for example, um, I have in my marketing example.
Here's the truth Referrals arerelationships, seo is relevance,
Trust is built at the speed ofsearch.
So any of the devices that youstumble upon that have anything
to do with truth are alwaysreally powerful, because we also
(18:09):
, you know, we come across a lotof patterns every day.
We also come across a lot oflies every day.
Right, yeah, there's a lot oflies in marketing.
There's a lot of patterns.
Every day, we also come acrossa lot of lies every day.
There's a lot of lies inmarketing.
There's a lot of lies comingfrom politicians.
There's a lot of lies comingfrom everywhere.
So your brain is also wired tosee something that stands out
when it's truth.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Or somebody says it with conviction Truth-based
conviction, or conviction-basedtruth where well, they said it
with that much confidence.
It must be true.
The truth-based convictionright or conviction-based truth
where well, they said it withthat much confidence, like it
must be true.
Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But in a sales email, obviously you can't hear the
way someone's saying it.
So that's why sentential isreally great, because it's a
universal truth, so it's onethat you'll see and recognize
and say, yes, that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's true.
You're not going to say no.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
referrals are not relationships, they're cold Like
what.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, that is intense .
Speaker 2 (18:59):
But if you want to play with some pattern
interruption there, imaginestarting an email line with cold
referrals, like your brain'sgoing to go what Right?
What are you talking about,right?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I love how your brain you're immediately like, ooh,
now I can actually mess withthis and like now let me do it
like cold referrals as a part ofthis as well.
All right, so those are two ofyour favorites.
This idea of like thisuniversal truth, this kind of
pattern create where you'restarting with, like you know,
every sentence, what are acouple others that you're you
know you consistently see, areable to be you know kind of put
(19:31):
in different places to generatethe outcome you're trying to
engineer.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah.
So another one is a semanticreframing and CSIS.
Uh, if I stumble CSIS on amaton, Okay, all right.
A lot of them are going to belike.
You're going to read them andbe like what, what am I?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
trying to read Well, this is great, I've, I've,
seriously.
This will probably be the firstepisode of this podcast where
I'm like I have absolutely noclue what this is.
The funny part is, maybe justsubconsciously for being in
sales for 20 years, differenttechniques and things like you
know, unconsciously competent,right of like.
Using some of these.
I'm like, okay.
Universal truth I'm like, okay,I see some of that.
(20:09):
All right, so let's talk aboutthese two.
So give me these two.
What are these?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Okay, so semantic reframing.
I'll give you an example.
Right?
So this isn't SEO, this isselective visibility, it's
strategic discovery, it'spatient intent made actionable.
You're not just showing up onGoogle, you're becoming the
answer, the destination, thedecision.
So you see how you're reframingwhat SEO is, okay, got decision
(20:33):
.
So you see how you're likereframing what SEO is?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And tying it into the customer.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And then CSIS automaton is basically it's
using a set of words to kind ofreframe.
So the example is so call, callit what you want SEO strategy,
(21:01):
patient acquisition.
When done right, the result isalways the same More of the
right patients, fewer emptychairs, no more hoping someone
else sends them your way.
So at the beginning I startedwith SEO strategy, patient
acquisition.
So using a set of three thingsto define one thing and then
saying, when it's done right,the result is another three
things.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Three things.
All right, so that's where thethree comes in.
Yeah, the rule of three.
Yeah, interesting.
Let's do a real example.
Let's take some of thisanaphora.
I've got to be honest.
The other ones are like there'sa non in there or something a
systemic which is exciting.
I'm actually excited to like golike nerd out into this world,
(21:39):
but why don't we do a liveexample?
Why don't you take like ageneric email?
And again, we're.
If you're watching or if you'rejust listening, we'll have it
on YouTube where you can see thescreen record.
But let's just talk through it.
So me an example.
What's a generic email here?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
All right, so here's a generic email.
The subject is reducingfriction equals revenue lift.
So, hi, jake, retail marketersare under pressure to reduce
drop-off at login because everyabandoned session has lost
revenue.
Backmarket used Auth0 to deployadaptive MFA and unique login
across channels and saw a majorimprovement in signing,
(22:13):
completion and return frequency.
Honestly, you've already lost me, but if you're working on
conversion or loyalty metricsthis quarter, I'd be happy to
share the flow they used.
Would that be helpful?
Best, chris, all right, nowlet's take it and I'm going to
reframe it with these twodevices called problem-centric
positioning, plus a barrierbusting promise.
(22:35):
So the subject is now goingfrom reducing friction equals
revenue lift to your login pageis hemorrhaging money, hey Jake,
every abandoned login cost you$47 in lost lifetime value.
Multiply that by your dailysessions.
That number just made youuncomfortable.
We fixed this in 14 dayswithout touching your existing
infrastructure.
(22:56):
Market went from 34 percentlogin abandonment to three
percent.
You can, too, want their exactplaybook.
And then there's another one.
Let's do interrogative,interrogative cascades plus
impact projection.
Okay, so the subject now isgoing from reducing friction
equals revenue lift to why are34% of your customers giving up?
(23:17):
Hey Jake, how many customerstried logging in yesterday?
How many give up?
How much revenue vanished inthose abandoned sessions?
Backmarket asked these samequestions.
Then they eliminated thefriction.
Now they capture $2.3 millionin previously lost revenue every
quarter from one simple changemaking login invisible.
Ready to stop the bleeding?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, so the interrogation, you're hitting
them with the questions and thenat the end you know, you're, I
guess, like framing it back in away that's like well, what are
you going to say?
No, like yeah, I don't want todo it.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yep.
And then here's one I like alot.
So antithesis is definitely oneof my favorite devices, so this
one is antithesis pluscommitment signals.
So the subject is goes, like Isaid before, from reducing
friction equals revenue lift tonow bad news about good metrics.
That's a pattern.
Interrupt right there.
Yeah, hey, jake, your marketingteam drives traffic, your login
(24:12):
page drives them away.
One builds, one destroys, andyou're paying for both.
Back market shows building overbleeding.
One decision, unified login.
One result 31% more completedsessions.
The companies that commit tofrictionless experience own the
market, the ones that don'tbecome case studies about what
not to do.
Which story are you going totell?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, I just feel like maybe just salespeople
today, man, are scared to bebold you know what I mean or to
like have an opinion, like youknow, because it's interesting,
like a consistent theme in therethat I hear is a point of view,
right Like, across all of thosethe email has a point of view
on good and bad, right Like, andagain I'm not, I'm kind of
(24:51):
overgenizing here, but acrosseach of those it's like it's
this very permission like well,I've like blah, blah, blah, like
I don't want to like have apoint of view, etc.
And I don't mean, you tell me,is like is that cause that kind
of like a common?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
yeah, I get emails that was like, hey, I know
you're busy, but oh gosh, that'smy worst man, oh yeah when
people say that like, like, ifsomeone calls you, you calls me,
hey, do you?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
do you have a couple seconds?
I answered the phone.
Like nobody on the right mindanswers an unknown number If I
don't have like two minutes,right, you know?
And it's like one of my biggestpet peeves.
So, yeah, I mean, that's kindof what my takeaway is that like
, look, too many sales reps areunconfident in their emails.
They don't have a point of view.
There's not, you know, I candeliver this outcome or it's not
(25:37):
metrics based.
Like, again, even some of thesubject lines.
I really liked that secondsubject line in particular.
We found that, like, usingpercentages and stuff like that,
again, you just don't see that,you just don't.
And again, like, that's why,going back to the very beginning
of the episode, it's like thebar is so low, like again, any
of these things, and all of younow are going to go and set up
your project, you're all goingto drop in your favorite.
(25:57):
You know one of Chris'seloquence formulas.
You know slash these like newdevices that you're learning to
do this, chris, this is fun man.
You answered a lot of questions.
I got schooled in likestorytelling Anafora will be the
name of this.
Maybe it won't be the name ofthis episode, but I mean, I
think what I love too is like itkind of we're bringing back
(26:22):
this idea of creativity and, youknow, being smart in the way we
communicate, and I think that'ssomething that I think anybody
could take away from this.
So, chris, appreciate youjoining me on the show, man.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Thanks for having me, Jake.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
All right, thanks everyone.
People ask me like well, jake, you know our
outbound or something isn'tworking.
And I'm like the bar is so lowtoday, like people are just,
like we're so obsessed with likevolume, and so it's like we
want to look for these verysimple, easy mass volume things.
And it's not that you can't dosome amount of pattern
disruption, like at scale to say, but I just feel like the bar
(00:21):
is so low right now.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And it's like if you trust her a little different.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
You know, it's like if you can actually just show
like you did a little researchor again some type of a video or
something, it's like you know,send a voice note on LinkedIn or
something right now for anybodylistening.
If you're like a top two or 3%,you're like I'm just going to
do pattern, disrupt stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
There's two different types of people who use AI.
There's the people who open itup and use it to get answers to
things and maybe craft tons ofcold sales emails, whatever.
And then there's the peoplethat build custom projects and
load it up with a bunch ofknowledge about who the target
audience is and the problemsthey're solving for them, the
(01:02):
problems they're facing.
Who they are as a person.
Maybe you know are they a dad?
Are they not a dad?
Like who is your targetaudience as the most important
thing, and creating salesmessages with GPT, having all
that information in a customproject and then repeating in
your prompts.
Leverage, like specificdocuments in the project.
(01:23):
Knowledge, because it helps tohave a project knowledge, but
getting really good at promptingand making sure that it's using
specific documents that youwant it to in the project
knowledge is really, reallyimportant to get the right
output.
Ask Claude and GPT what aresome great literary devices,
rhetorical devices andstorytelling frameworks that I
can use to speak to thisaudience.
(01:44):
It'll give you a list and thething is, what I found,
especially with these literaryframeworks, is GPT and Claude.
They only go as deep as you go.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
AI-powered seller.
All right, chris, welcome tothe show man.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, thank you, Jake .
Super excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
All right.
Well, this should be fun.
Chris has this eloquenceformula detail that we're going
to dive into.
And look, you've studied thecommunication and language
patterns right of a lot of youknow what people would consider
some of the most effectivecommunicators, right, people are
able to get their persuasivecommunicators.
Tell me you know, in particular, like what were some of like
(02:21):
the common themes andparticularly for all my sales,
you know people out there whatare some of like the big
takeaways when it comes to salesoutreach today and you know
ways that people can utilizewhat you've learned in outreach
and sales in general.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, you know, when it comes to, uh, sales and using
the art of language, you knowI've read over a dozen books on
communication and language and,hands down, you know the people
who change the world, who makean impact.
Those are primarily throughouthistory, what you have recorded
(03:00):
are usually presidents, worldleaders and people like that are
usually presidents, worldleaders and people like that,
and so a lot of these books thatI've gone over really dive into
the psychology of why what theysaid worked.
Because, for example, you know,when we had to go into World
War, two people had to be verypersuasive as to why we had to
(03:22):
join it.
Obviously, there was a US shipthat was attacked and shouldn't
have been.
But no matter what goes on inthe world, people react in
different ways and a leaderalways emerges and says
something that persuades peopleand gets them on board with what
(03:45):
their ultimate goal is.
When you think about sales,your ultimate goal is more than
likely, building a relationship,but also conversion.
By doing so, providing value.
The biggest theme that I'veseen recurring throughout
(04:06):
history and there's a lot aboutproven psychology around this is
pattern interruption.
So every single day, your brainis filtering through everything
it sees, whether you're drivingdown the road and looking at
billboards, listening to apodcast, whatever it is, your
(04:26):
brain ignores 90% of thepatterns that it sees Right,
it's just filtering through.
Yeah, and say, for example,there was one day I was it was
funny I was back from vacationlooking through my emails and I
said, how did I just get 500unread emails?
This is insanity.
(04:47):
And I was like, you know, I'mjust going to run through this
for an hour and just deleteeverything, right, basically,
but I do need to make sure thatI don't miss anything important.
And that's when I was like,okay, well, well, this is also
pattern recognition.
How good am I at recognizingcold outreach emails, deleting
(05:08):
them versus emails that areimportant?
And, as a salesperson, that, Ifeel like, is the most important
thing, is if you can breakpatterns.
That's what gets the mind topay attention.
And it could even be startingoff an email with a subject line
(05:30):
with something different thatyou don't usually, for example,
because ABC, usually sentencesdon't start with because so
anything that you can basicallyhack.
If you want to hack the brain'sattention, you have to break a
pattern that it's used to right.
So back to you know, throughouthistory it's pattern pattern
(05:54):
eruption has always been, uh, awinning formula.
But then, on the flip side,there's, for example, the rule
of three saying three thingssuccessively can be extremely
powerful.
So there's different patternsthat the brain does recognize
and responds to.
(06:16):
But for the most part it'spattern interruption.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Interesting.
Yeah, I think it's soapplicable today.
I feel people ask me, like youknow well, Jake, you know our
outbound or something isn'tworking and I'm like the bar is
so low today, Like people arejust, like we're so obsessed
with like volume, and so it'slike we want to look for these
very simple, easy mass volumethings.
(06:40):
And it's not that you can't dosome amount of pattern
disruption, like at scale to say, but I just feel like the bar
is so low right now and it'slike if you just are a little
different, you know like it'slike like if you can actually
just show, like you did a littleresearch or again, some type of
video or something, it's likeyou know, send a voice note on
LinkedIn or something Like Ijust feel that right now, for
(07:02):
anybody listening, I really feellike everybody should.
If you're a top 2% or 3%,you're like, I'm just going to
do pattern disrupt stuff.
I'm just going to send apersonalized video.
I'm going to do this thing I'mgoing to start a subject line
with because, and as a part ofthis, you develop these
eloquence formulas.
This is a very Chris thing,which is pretty.
(07:25):
It's a pretty interesting topic.
So why don't you just talk alittle bit about, like, where
did this come from?
Like, so again, so, patterndisruption, you know, is kind of
this kind of core theme thatyou had, you know, took away and
I think it's just, I think it'smore applicable today than ever
.
But where did this eloquenceformula kind of concept come
from?
And maybe just explain a littlebit about the different, you
know, formulas?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
we have to go into each one, but just maybe at a
high level yeah, so at a highlevel, what I've created as
eloquence formulas, what theyare, are literary devices, also
known as rhetorical devices,stacked on top of each other.
So, for example, anaphora is aliterary device, and when I say
(08:06):
stack them, you say, for example, anaphora in the first sentence
, followed by a euphemism in thesecond sentence, followed by.
So basically, you're stackingdifferent literary devices, and
a literary device is basicallyan English literature method or
(08:29):
a way of writing that is provento persuade, engage and convert.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Okay, For all that's out there, what is anaphora?
I'm sorry I will, as my salesbrain break it down for me.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Funny.
You ask Jake Anaphora.
It's the repetition of a wordor phrase at the beginning of
successive clauses, and what itdoes is it creates rhythm and
reinforces a core message.
So an example would be yourbrain has potential, your brain
has power, your brain has astory waiting to be told.
So you're beginning each set.
They're short sentences.
(09:02):
You're beginning each set.
They're short sentences, butyou're beginning each one with
the same word.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
All right.
And there's also like anaphoraparadigms, which shows contrast
between choices whilereinforcing the core value.
So it's like we buildstrategies that grow brands, we
build campaigns that inspireloyalty, we build futures for
businesses like yours.
So it's like slightly differentfrom its Anaphora versus
Anaphora paradigm, so you canadd different words to, for
(09:33):
example, a literary frameworkand expands its capability even
further.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
All right, you've learned something now today An
Fora as a part of this, and soso talk a little bit about like
how you know cause I want totalk about in the sales process
and other areas too.
I mean, look you're, you'redeep into the.
You know kind of this new.
You know the new, I'll call itthe new SEO, right, which is the
.
You know how do I show up inLLMs, right, that's like you're
kind of jam too, because I wantto talk about that.
(10:02):
You know, if we're talking aboutlike cold outreach, right, and
you know getting in front ofpeople, I think it's too, it's
you know, it's like you don'twant to sound marketing
messaging, you know, and I thinkwhat you just mentioned, like
that I don't see a lot of peopledoing that for cold outreach.
You know that's like boom, boom, boom or doing some type of
like relevancy base.
So you know what does it looklike for cold outreach?
So this type of you know kindof using these patterns, using
(10:24):
this disrupt, what are thethings that if I'm, you know, a
seller, I'm listening to this.
How can I apply this to kind ofcut through right, so, using
this, and maybe we can get intosome like practical examples as
well, too.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah, so I use GPT and Cloud a lot for breaking
down which rhetorical deviceswill work best in specific
messages.
Personalization is extremelyimportant, so understanding who
you're speaking to, whatproblems that you're solving for
them, what issues they'recurrently facing.
(10:58):
Timing is extremely relevant aswell.
So really understanding yourtarget audience, your target
customer, and we always you knowa lot of people will.
There's two different types ofpeople who use AI.
There's the people who open itup and use it to get answers to
(11:20):
things and maybe craft tons ofcold sales emails, whatever.
And then there's the peoplethat build custom projects and
load it up with a bunch ofknowledge about who their target
audience is and the problemsthey're solving for them, the
problems they're facing, whothey are as a person Maybe are
they a dad, are they not a dad?
(11:42):
Who is your target audience?
that is the most important thingand when creating sales
messages with GPT, having allthat information in a custom
project and then repeating inyour prompts, leverage specific
documents in the projectknowledge because, it helps to
(12:04):
have a project knowledge, butgetting really good at prompting
and making sure that it's usingspecific documents that you
want it to in the projectknowledge is really, really
important to get the rightoutput.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, and then how do , when you think about so, for
those of you who don't know oraren't using projects and we can
talk about maybe quickly, youknow your take on using like
assistance or custom GBTs versusprojects, I think there's kind
of like use cases for both.
You know, I have a project.
It's like my personalnutritionist, like health plan
doctor, so it's got my bloodwork, it's got my food allergies
(12:37):
, it's got like you know, I'mdoing keto, so it's got like all
the things.
So every day I upload thevitals, it says this this is the
kind of day we're going to have, this is the workout.
And I think it's the exact sameidea where it's like hey, with
a project and I was talking tothe head of enterprise sales at
OpenAI and they do projects onevery new account, so like
basically, it's like okay, sowe're trying to penetrate ABC,
(12:59):
so they're uploading thedocuments, et cetera.
They're uploading.
You know, here's who we'remeeting with, call transcripts,
you know all of that.
And so for those of you whohaven't been using projects, I
would highly recommend usingprojects.
Claude's also really goodprojects around, like content
writing I've found, inparticular, like LinkedIn posts
and blog posts and things likethat.
So if I have a project that'sgot my buyer persona and I'm a
(13:21):
sales rep and again we'll kindof like walk through the sales
process, so for cold outreach,how should I think about that?
Right?
So, using some of theseeloquence formulas coupled with
okay, I created a project, I'vetold it, okay, here's my buyer
persona.
I've said, here's the productsthat I sell.
I'm trying to get a meetingwith Chris, right.
Then how can I use it?
Or how do I think about if I'msomebody who wants to apply this
(13:42):
to cold outbound, using some ofthe eloquence formula structure
, to then use the project togenerate the right type of
messaging?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, so when you're building out these custom
projects, the first thing youwant to do is ask Claude and GPT
.
You know what are some greatliterary devices, rhetorical
devices and storytellingframeworks that I can use to
speak to this audience?
(14:11):
It'll give you a list and thething is, what I found
especially with these literaryframeworks is GPT and Claude.
They only go as deep as you go.
So you'll probably get the 10most basic rhetorical devices
that you probably heard andit'll be like these are great.
And then you'll test them andbe like what are you even
(14:33):
talking about?
Right, because the thing isliterary devices and rhetorical
frameworks.
They've been used for thousandsthroughout centuries, primarily
in political speech, writingand poetry, not so much in
marketing.
So that's where you have to kindof dig deeper and say okay,
(14:53):
give me a list of 15 that startwith A, and then it'll start to
pop up with new ones that itnever gave you before and you're
like, okay, that's good, giveme 15 that start with A-N,
because there's thousands outthere.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Okay, interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And just asking it for rhetorical devices and
storytelling frameworks.
Every time it's only going togive you the most basic common
ones.
That's when you have to startdigging deeper and asking more
questions and getting a veryspecific okay, give me more with
A, b, now give me some with Z,now give me some with Y, and we
(15:33):
have a library of thousands ofthem, so you can get a ton.
And then what you want to do istest a specific one with say
okay, now use those 15 that yougave me to rewrite this first
sentence of the sales email.
And then you can pick out andsay, okay, well, that one
actually.
Wow, that did a really good job.
Wow, that rewrote very well.
(15:55):
Okay, I'm going to store thisone.
And then you start buildingyour document on all the ones
that you've seen.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
That are winners.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
That are winners correct, and out of the
thousands out there, there'sprobably 500 that I use on a
consistent basis.
I know it's a lot, but 500 thatI love.
No matter how I use them, theywork wonders.
But, like I said before, italso does have to do with who
your target audience is, Becauseyou don't want to use a device
that's demanding.
If you're, say, in healthcareand say it's B2C, You're
(16:31):
reaching out to people who needto reschedule an appointment,
Well, you don't want to say youknow your health is at risk,
like right off the bat, thatmight scare somebody.
Like sure it can grab theirattention, but is that really
how you want to speak?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
to somebody.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
It really depends on who your target audience is.
When you're testing thesedifferent devices, you want to
take all your favorites and thenstart stacking them and say,
okay, now give know 20 pairs outof these 200.
I just need pair sets of twofor two sentences, and so once
(17:12):
you start doing that, then youcan start building, and an
eloquence formula are multipledevices stacked on top of each
other, right, so it could beanywhere from two to 20.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Right, are there go-tos?
So you got Anafor.
Like what are your two?
What have you seen?
Like, what are your go-toliteratures?
Like you know, like are theresome?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I mean there's obviously 15.
So semiotic triangulation andSententia.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Okay, please.
Okay, let's go one by one here.
Okay, tell me, semiotictriangulation Is that what we're
going?
Okay, all right, you guys aregoing to have to chat to me to
do that, yeah, um, and thensententia, and sententia is
basically like a universal truth.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
So, for example, um, I have in my marketing example.
Here's the truth Referrals arerelationships, seo is relevance,
Trust is built at the speed ofsearch.
So any of the devices that youstumble upon that have anything
to do with truth are alwaysreally powerful, because we also
(18:09):
, you know, we come across a lotof patterns every day.
We also come across a lot oflies every day.
Right, yeah, there's a lot oflies in marketing.
There's a lot of patterns.
Every day, we also come acrossa lot of lies every day.
There's a lot of lies inmarketing.
There's a lot of lies comingfrom politicians.
There's a lot of lies comingfrom everywhere.
So your brain is also wired tosee something that stands out
when it's truth.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Or somebody says it with conviction Truth-based
conviction, or conviction-basedtruth where well, they said it
with that much confidence.
It must be true.
The truth-based convictionright or conviction-based truth
where well, they said it withthat much confidence, like it
must be true.
Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But in a sales email, obviously you can't hear the
way someone's saying it.
So that's why sentential isreally great, because it's a
universal truth, so it's onethat you'll see and recognize
and say, yes, that's true.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
That's true.
You're not going to say no.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
referrals are not relationships, they're cold Like
what.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, that is intense .
Speaker 2 (18:59):
But if you want to play with some pattern
interruption there, imaginestarting an email line with cold
referrals, like your brain'sgoing to go what Right?
What are you talking about,right?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I love how your brain you're immediately like, ooh,
now I can actually mess withthis and like now let me do it
like cold referrals as a part ofthis as well.
All right, so those are two ofyour favorites.
This idea of like thisuniversal truth, this kind of
pattern create where you'restarting with, like you know,
every sentence, what are acouple others that you're you
know you consistently see, areable to be you know kind of put
(19:31):
in different places to generatethe outcome you're trying to
engineer.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah.
So another one is a semanticreframing and CSIS.
Uh, if I stumble CSIS on amaton, Okay, all right.
A lot of them are going to belike.
You're going to read them andbe like what, what am I?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
trying to read Well, this is great, I've, I've,
seriously.
This will probably be the firstepisode of this podcast where
I'm like I have absolutely noclue what this is.
The funny part is, maybe justsubconsciously for being in
sales for 20 years, differenttechniques and things like you
know, unconsciously competent,right of like.
Using some of these.
I'm like, okay.
Universal truth I'm like, okay,I see some of that.
(20:09):
All right, so let's talk aboutthese two.
So give me these two.
What are these?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Okay, so semantic reframing.
I'll give you an example.
Right?
So this isn't SEO, this isselective visibility, it's
strategic discovery, it'spatient intent made actionable.
You're not just showing up onGoogle, you're becoming the
answer, the destination, thedecision.
So you see how you're reframingwhat SEO is, okay, got decision
(20:33):
.
So you see how you're likereframing what SEO is?
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And tying it into the customer.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And then CSIS automaton is basically it's
using a set of words to kind ofreframe.
So the example is so call, callit what you want SEO strategy,
(21:01):
patient acquisition.
When done right, the result isalways the same More of the
right patients, fewer emptychairs, no more hoping someone
else sends them your way.
So at the beginning I startedwith SEO strategy, patient
acquisition.
So using a set of three thingsto define one thing and then
saying, when it's done right,the result is another three
things.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Three things.
All right, so that's where thethree comes in.
Yeah, the rule of three.
Yeah, interesting.
Let's do a real example.
Let's take some of thisanaphora.
I've got to be honest.
The other ones are like there'sa non in there or something a
systemic which is exciting.
I'm actually excited to like golike nerd out into this world,
(21:39):
but why don't we do a liveexample?
Why don't you take like ageneric email?
And again, we're.
If you're watching or if you'rejust listening, we'll have it
on YouTube where you can see thescreen record.
But let's just talk through it.
So me an example.
What's a generic email here?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
All right, so here's a generic email.
The subject is reducingfriction equals revenue lift.
So, hi, jake, retail marketersare under pressure to reduce
drop-off at login because everyabandoned session has lost
revenue.
Backmarket used Auth0 to deployadaptive MFA and unique login
across channels and saw a majorimprovement in signing,
(22:13):
completion and return frequency.
Honestly, you've already lost me, but if you're working on
conversion or loyalty metricsthis quarter, I'd be happy to
share the flow they used.
Would that be helpful?
Best, chris, all right, nowlet's take it and I'm going to
reframe it with these twodevices called problem-centric
positioning, plus a barrierbusting promise.
(22:35):
So the subject is now goingfrom reducing friction equals
revenue lift to your login pageis hemorrhaging money, hey Jake,
every abandoned login cost you$47 in lost lifetime value.
Multiply that by your dailysessions.
That number just made youuncomfortable.
We fixed this in 14 dayswithout touching your existing
infrastructure.
(22:56):
Market went from 34 percentlogin abandonment to three
percent.
You can, too, want their exactplaybook.
And then there's another one.
Let's do interrogative,interrogative cascades plus
impact projection.
Okay, so the subject now isgoing from reducing friction
equals revenue lift to why are34% of your customers giving up?
(23:17):
Hey Jake, how many customerstried logging in yesterday?
How many give up?
How much revenue vanished inthose abandoned sessions?
Backmarket asked these samequestions.
Then they eliminated thefriction.
Now they capture $2.3 millionin previously lost revenue every
quarter from one simple changemaking login invisible.
Ready to stop the bleeding?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, so the interrogation, you're hitting
them with the questions and thenat the end you know, you're, I
guess, like framing it back in away that's like well, what are
you going to say?
No, like yeah, I don't want todo it.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yep.
And then here's one I like alot.
So antithesis is definitely oneof my favorite devices, so this
one is antithesis pluscommitment signals.
So the subject is goes, like Isaid before, from reducing
friction equals revenue lift tonow bad news about good metrics.
That's a pattern.
Interrupt right there.
Yeah, hey, jake, your marketingteam drives traffic, your login
(24:12):
page drives them away.
One builds, one destroys, andyou're paying for both.
Back market shows building overbleeding.
One decision, unified login.
One result 31% more completedsessions.
The companies that commit tofrictionless experience own the
market, the ones that don'tbecome case studies about what
not to do.
Which story are you going totell?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, I just feel like maybe just salespeople
today, man, are scared to bebold you know what I mean or to
like have an opinion, like youknow, because it's interesting,
like a consistent theme in therethat I hear is a point of view,
right Like, across all of thosethe email has a point of view
on good and bad, right Like, andagain I'm not, I'm kind of
(24:51):
overgenizing here, but acrosseach of those it's like it's
this very permission like well,I've like blah, blah, blah, like
I don't want to like have apoint of view, etc.
And I don't mean, you tell me,is like is that cause that kind
of like a common?
Speaker 2 (25:03):
yeah, I get emails that was like, hey, I know
you're busy, but oh gosh, that'smy worst man, oh yeah when
people say that like, like, ifsomeone calls you, you calls me,
hey, do you?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
do you have a couple seconds?
I answered the phone.
Like nobody on the right mindanswers an unknown number If I
don't have like two minutes,right, you know?
And it's like one of my biggestpet peeves.
So, yeah, I mean, that's kindof what my takeaway is that like
, look, too many sales reps areunconfident in their emails.
They don't have a point of view.
There's not, you know, I candeliver this outcome or it's not
(25:37):
metrics based.
Like, again, even some of thesubject lines.
I really liked that secondsubject line in particular.
We found that, like, usingpercentages and stuff like that,
again, you just don't see that,you just don't.
And again, like, that's why,going back to the very beginning
of the episode, it's like thebar is so low, like again, any
of these things, and all of younow are going to go and set up
your project, you're all goingto drop in your favorite.
(25:57):
You know one of Chris'seloquence formulas.
You know slash these like newdevices that you're learning to
do this, chris, this is fun man.
You answered a lot of questions.
I got schooled in likestorytelling Anafora will be the
name of this.
Maybe it won't be the name ofthis episode, but I mean, I
think what I love too is like itkind of we're bringing back
(26:22):
this idea of creativity and, youknow, being smart in the way we
communicate, and I think that'ssomething that I think anybody
could take away from this.
So, chris, appreciate youjoining me on the show, man.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Thanks for having me, Jake.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
All right, thanks everyone.
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