October 16, 2025 • 23 mins
Pressing an AI button won’t write a novel that anyone wants to read.
On this episode, we look at using AI for writing – not as a shortcut, but as a thinking partner that helps you move from fuzzy concepts to sharp ideas without losing your voice.
Alongside author Amit Gupta and Google’s VP of Learning, Maureen Heymans, we map the line between helpful brainstorming and harmful outsourcing. Ultimately, we landed on a simple rule of thumb that parents and students can use today: Does AI enhance or displace your thinking?
As a published sci-fi author who created Sudowrite, Amit shows us what he does whenever he's stuck on a story. Essentially, he dumps everything into an AI (random thoughts, dialogue snippets, backstory, etc.) and then has a conversation with the chatbot to refine it. Not to write for him, but to help him work through his own creative blocks.
Maureen gave us the most practical advice: Write your first draft yourself. It can be messy and disorganized, but capture your authentic thinking first and then use AI to fine-tune how you express those ideas. For example, as someone who isn't a native English speaker, Maureen uses AI to make sure her ideas aren't misinterpreted – but she always starts with her own thinking.
Both guests emphasized that AI is a tool, not a replacement. The guiding principle is simple: Does this help you think more deeply, or is it doing your thinking for you? Get that question right, and AI can be an incredible partner in learning.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:04):
Some people think you ask it to write yourself, uh
write you a science fictionnovel, and you hit enter and a
novel pops out.
And that's not how it works.
Even if you could get it towrite a whole novel in that way,
it wouldn't be a novel thatanyone would ever want to read.
The way you write a novel withAI is much, much, much more
(00:25):
interactive.
SPEAKER_04 (00:30):
Lisa, you're a published author, and we're
about to talk about AI andwriting.
I I'm curious for like your takeon this.
SPEAKER_05 (00:37):
Yeah, I have like two minds about it, and most of
it is about the parent side ofit, of like, you still need to
learn how to communicate throughwriting.
But I also know that if I plugin something for AI to write for
me, I would never be able to usethat without changing it
drastically.
(00:58):
And I'm not so worried aboutthat sort of creative part of
writing once you've learned.
What worries me more is like ifyou don't know how.
SPEAKER_04 (01:06):
Yes, 100% to that.
The hardest part about writinganything is not getting the
words onto the piece of paper oronto the electronic document.
It's actually figuring out like,what do you want to say?
Like, what is your perspective?
What is your opinion?
I find that whenever I try touse it, like A, I spend way too
much time trying to get it tosound like I want it to sound.
(01:27):
And then even then, it generallyfeels hollow because I realized
that all that time I spenttrying to like prompt engineer
the AI should have actually beenspent trying to digest, like
what is it that I have to saythat's like unique and
authentic.
I mean, in the same way that wesaw low-fi, low-tech videos on
TikTok totally beating thereally polished like corporate
(01:50):
videos, because like there'sthis huge premium on
authenticity.
You know, I'd rather someonewrite something that doesn't
isn't structured perfectly andjust sounds like them, as
opposed to like the quoteunquote perfect crafted essay.
SPEAKER_05 (02:05):
But in the short term, I also think in a school
setting, for example, ifsomebody had a kid had an essay,
I don't know that the adults arequite there yet, um, or the kids
maybe are quite there yet to beable to distinguish between
what's hollow and sus, as theteenagers would say.
SPEAKER_04 (02:23):
Yeah, sus is a good encapsulation for all this.
Um, and that's what we're goingto dig into on this episode of
Raising Kids in the Age of AI, apodcast from AI EDU Studios
created in collaboration withGoogle.
SPEAKER_05 (02:36):
I'm Dr.
Lisa Pressman, developmentalpsychologist and host of the
podcast Raising Good Humans.
SPEAKER_04 (02:41):
And I'm Alex Katron, founder and CEO of AIEDU, a
nonprofit helping studentsthrive in a world where AI is
everywhere.
Today on the pod, we're talkingabout AI as a writing and
learning partner.
Can it help us spark new ideas?
Or are we taking away ourability to maintain critical
thinking in that process?
And what does it mean in thecontext of being a writer?
SPEAKER_05 (03:04):
Later in the episode, we'll hear once more
from Maureen Haymonds, VP ofLearning at Google.
Maureen joined us in our firstepisode to talk about exploring
interests through AI, and she'llreturn to the pod to share her
insights around using AI as abrainstorming tool and a
learning aid.
SPEAKER_04 (03:20):
But first, we're going to hear from Amet Gupta.
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
I'm Amit, I'm one of the founders of Suderite, and we
make AI tools for authors.
SPEAKER_04 (03:26):
Early in his writing career, Amet wrote completely by
himself.
And then he got into a writinggroup, and he would workshop his
latest project with them.
But as with so many parts oflife, the pandemic put the
kibosh on meeting up in person.
And it opened the door to anearly introduction to large
language models that began toshift Amit's approach to writing
and brainstorming.
SPEAKER_02 (03:46):
The first time I tried AI was in late 2020.
That's when we actually got uhearly access to it.
We just started playing with itas kind of like this fun toy to
play with words.
One way we were using at thetime was like, oh, I'm stuck.
I've written this, like, uh I'vewritten this chapter and I just
don't know what's supposed tohappen next.
(04:07):
And in the past, I'd just belike thinking and thinking and
thinking, and maybe it wouldtake me a month of like just
walking around and like notworking on it so that I like
eventually just come up with theidea.
And with AI, I will just likeput in everything I know about
the story, random like thoughtsI have, random like bits of
dialogue, maybe this I have thislike backstory or the snippet I
want to use, just throw it allin, like the brain dump.
(04:29):
And then I can talk to it, I canhave it like create a synopsis.
From the synopsis, I can belike, oh, that's not quite
right, or like, oh, there's aninteresting idea here, but the
other stuff isn't working.
So it's almost like a thoughtpartner for what this the core
of the story is.
And then it just like it flowsout much more easily for me.
I can just start writing it.
You can definitely ask the AI toreflect back what it's seeing
(04:52):
that you're missing.
So like I'll still show storiesto other writers to get their
feedback, but I'm probably gonnashow it to the AI first because
it can help me resolve kind ofthe obvious mistakes and the the
silly things that I don't wantmy friends to waste time trying
to fix for me.
I want them to focus on kind ofthe higher level, deeper stuff.
I think one of the things that Ido a lot is I'm like very
(05:15):
precious with my words.
So I spend probably too muchtime in the editing process.
And I'll often know that likethe phrase I'm using or the word
I'm using is not like exactlythe right word.
It's like close, but it's not,it just doesn't have the right
flavor.
And so I'm often using AI tolike just change a single word,
(05:36):
like trying to figure out likegiven this whole story and what
this character cares about inthis moment, like why is this
word wrong?
Or like what are some otherwords?
Writing is thinking, like thatum at its core, that that's what
you're doing.
To get something onto a page,you really have to understand
it.
But I think having aconversation is thinking too.
So when you're having aconversation with someone about
(05:57):
an idea, you're also figuringout what you really believe and
you're being challenged by theother person's point of view and
kind of processing what theythink and responding to that.
So for me, like the hard things,the things that I struggle with
are the like initial spark, likehow do I go from the idea for
the world to like the coreconflict of the inciting
incident that's gonna make itcome alive.
(06:18):
I I would love to be able to doit myself, but I can't.
And if I'm gonna spend likemonths just like gnashing my
teeth, I'd much rather likeeither it's a conversation with
other writers, if I can, if Ican find those writers and
they're willing to talk to meabout it and unlock it, or it's
a conversation with the AI thatgets me through it.
If you are getting started todayas a writer, the problem you're
(06:38):
facing is no different frombefore AI.
Like you still need to find yourvoice, you still need to find
your perspective.
And I think you are more likelyto get past kind of the
structural issues and like thetechnical issues more quickly,
and then you can focus on yourvoice, and I think really create
something special that's yours.
I think one of the mostfrustrating things with AI is
(07:01):
that it sounds like AI.
Like it just sounds like themost mid-version of anyone
that's ever existed, and it likemakes sense because like you add
every color together and it'sjust drab brown or whatever, and
this is just adding every likeword that's ever been written
together, and it just comes outlike paste.
And I think that that's beenlike one of the chief complaints
(07:22):
people have had.
It's like magical, it's amazing,they can do these things, but
why doesn't it sound like me?
It sounds like some somethingelse.
I think it pushes everyone to bebetter, and I think you've seen
this in every creative spacewhere like the technology has
made it easier.
Like a lot of painting beforephotography existed was just
portraits.
You were just trying to createlike a photorealistic like
(07:43):
memory of what this personlooked like, and that doesn't
exist as a job anymore becauseyou can just go like this and
it's done.
Um, but photography is still anart form because anyone can take
a perfect picture, but noteveryone can create art using a
camera.
And I think the same is true ofanything else that AI lets you
do today.
It's gonna it's gonna pushartists to be even better to
(08:04):
really like stand out.
SPEAKER_05 (08:13):
I really loved what he said, and I think it it
perfectly kind of captured theworry about using AI as a
writing partner and the benefitsof using AI as a writing
partner.
Like, and to his point aboutkind of mixing all the colors
together, you get this brownevery time.
(08:33):
But if you have this human beingauthentically creating their
voice and uh figuring out how toexpress themselves, is there a
way to use AI to really elevateyour humanity?
And then I think it could bevery cool.
SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
Yeah, the color analogy is brilliant.
Um, I guess pun intended.
But um this idea of like writingis thinking, you know, I I think
we just need to keep coming backto that.
And that's really, I think,maybe a good heuristic to to
take when you're when you'retrying to ask, you know, is this
a good or a or a bad use of AI?
Is it is it enhancing yourthought on the topic?
(09:12):
There's myriad examples of howsomeone could be using AI to
like sort of like develop theirown perspective and and thought
on a topic.
Like on the converse, if AI isdisplacing that that process,
you know, I think that's whereyou start to run into some red
flags should go up.
SPEAKER_05 (09:29):
Alex, those are like that is a really simple way for
parents to assess support.
Is it enhancing or is itdisplacing?
And I think if we can just askthose two questions and really
get those questions going in ourchildren's minds as they're
interacting with AI, it can beincredibly protective.
SPEAKER_04 (09:48):
Yeah, and just to delve a bit into some of some of
the research, the research istruly all over the place.
There's um lots of studies thatshow AI is, you know, incredibly
valuable in teaching andlearning settings.
There is one study that lookedspecifically at writing.
They took brain scans ofstudents who were writing, uh, I
think it was like SAT essays.
(10:08):
And um, what they found is thatthe students who were, let's
say, over reliant on AI is thatum the parts of the brain that
normally light up during uh sortof like these like deep
metacognitive critical thinkingtasks, uh, they weren't
activating as much.
Small sample size of things like54 subjects.
Um, but it it's it's a reason tobe thoughtful about this.
(10:30):
Most people don't necessarilyhave a writing coach that they
can turn to.
And I think going through thatsort of Socratic process of, you
know, sort of like beingintrospective about what you've
written, is there a better wayfor me to say this point that I
made?
I mean, I don't know, Elise,what what's your take?
I mean, to me, that doesn'traise the same alarm bells as,
you know, just sort of like plugand play.
SPEAKER_05 (10:48):
Exactly.
Because you have to use your owncritical thinking skills in
order to do that iterativeprocess.
And I think the risk would bethe kid who is like, we like I
just asked this question and outpops my essay and I'm done.
And of course, that you canabsolutely see could just turn
the light dimmer down on thosefMRIs.
SPEAKER_04 (11:11):
We need to focus a lot more on the process than
ever before because AI is gonnamake it such that you know
anybody can come up with areally cool output.
Yes.
Um and you know, even an outputthat doesn't look perfect might
actually be a much betterlearning experience if it
includes, you know, this sort ofprocess of learning and
(11:34):
exploration that we know isactually sort of like driving
learning in kids.
SPEAKER_05 (11:39):
In general, when we talk about learning and growth
mindset, we talk about focusingon the process, not the outcome.
That's something that helps kidslearn no matter what we're
thinking about.
It's no different with AI.
SPEAKER_04 (11:54):
Up next, we're gonna hear again from friend of the
pod, Maureen Haymonds, VP ofLearning at Google.
She talks about how AI can be auseful tool to improve your
writing, but she started bysharing something that Amet also
talked about.
How any writing exercise isultimately an exercise in
thinking.
You need to know your materialbefore you write about it.
So Maureen talked about how evenbefore the writing begins, AI
(12:15):
tools can help a student fullygrasp the concept behind the
assignment.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
I think AI is also a great way to kind of explore um
concepts, right?
You can you can ask questions,you can ask clarifying questions
to really understand somethingthat you you it's it's hard to
grasp just with text, right?
But now if you can start puttingthat in images and in uh
simulation and videos, you know,it starts becoming much more
(12:43):
digestible for a lot of people,right?
So I think that's one way thatAI can can really help you
understand any concept and alsodigest a lot of different um
information in differentformats.
So there is this tool calledNotebook LM that enable you to
upload contents about some topicand then will automatically
(13:04):
generate a bunch of ways toconsume that content.
It will let you create asummary, but they will also
create some QA and likeillustration of those concepts.
And then it will also evengenerate completely new format
like podcasts.
And some people might understandbetter concepts if they listen.
So at Google, we have beenthinking a lot of how we can use
(13:25):
AI to really evolve how peoplelearn, right?
Consuming content, whether thisis reading a website or watching
a video, can sometimes feelpretty passive.
And so AI has the opportunity toreally make it much more
interactive, first through aconversation.
And so you start putting theperson really in the driver's
seat of um of the learningbecause they start interacting
(13:47):
with that knowledge.
SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Once you really understand the material, it's
time to write the essay.
But this is the part of thewriting process where it's easy
to get bogged down what exactlyto say or how to say it.
Maureen likes to call in AItools for getting unstuck.
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
AI can be amazing for brainstorming.
Often people might have an idea,but they don't know how to
express it, or they might be alittle bit stuck.
And so, first AI can be thatspringboard, right?
Really get the creative juiceflowing, right?
It's um and really, you know,start, you know, brainstorming
about lots of different ideas.
(14:28):
And then, you know, it canactually provide you feedback
that you get this um, you know,judgment-free, like 24-7 um
feedback tool, right?
That is going to be superconstructive, that can be
targeted to you, and can reallyhelp you refine your ideas and
suggest perspective that youhadn't thought about, right?
(14:48):
But you want to be creativeyourself, right?
You want to generate your own IDand be in charge of that
creativity.
SPEAKER_04 (14:54):
After going deep with the material and
brainstorming what you want tosay about it, it's time to
actually write.
But Maureen cautions (14:59):
don't turn to AI first.
You need to stay in the driver'sseat.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
When you use AI tools, it's super important that
you don't upload too much of thecognitive exercise to those
tools, right?
You to really want to empoweryour own thinking first.
Or if you want to do somecreative writing, you know,
first write the first draftbefore you go back to AI.
So I think it's important thatyou know we generate our own uh
(15:26):
point of view before we turn tooquickly to AI.
It can be messy.
You just, you know, write downall your ideas, you know, your
personal thought from yourexperience, you know, what you
are trying to express.
And then after that, you can useAI to refine what you are trying
to express in a way that mightbe more digestible, right?
Especially as someone that isnot a native speaker in English,
(15:49):
right?
Sometimes I'm I'm afraid thatwhat I say might be
misinterpreted.
But if I if I really spend thetime to write down all my notes,
you know, even if it's messy andwhat I'm trying to convey, and
then use AI as a companion thatcan make sure that I express
this in the most efficient way,um, I think it can be really
powerful.
So I think a lot of people thinkof AI as a way to save time and
(16:12):
um and it's like a bigproductive boost.
But I think it's important toalso think of how it can really
push forward your um yourthinking, right?
So we should acknowledge ithelps you save time, you know.
But most importantly, I think itcan elevate the quality of of
your um of your thought.
SPEAKER_05 (16:33):
You have to be able to write the first draft before
you go back to AI, is a themewe've heard before.
And I think it's gonna continueto be a really important
takeaway.
I'm just thinking of one of theparents that I work with told me
that his daughter wrote a textthat was like really thoughtful
and organized about, you know, arequest that she had, but it was
(16:58):
so clearly AI generated.
Um but he was at first soimpressed with the way that she
asked the questions and herproposal that he was like about
to bend on a serious boundarybecause it was like, that's such
a good argument.
So I just think I was thinking,did she write a first draft
first?
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_04 (17:17):
I mean, maybe we can even game out like a parent's
reaction to receiving a textlike that.
So um I think it's importantthat you don't immediately just
make an assumption.
I mean, like it like it could bethe case that there actually was
a lot of back and forth andthoughtfulness that went into
um, like, hey, here's like whatmy parents are like and here's
what I need help with.
(17:38):
Um, so so to me, the theresponse could could look
something like this.
This is a really well-writtentext.
Like, can you show me?
I mean, like, I pretty sure youused AI.
I don't no judgment, but likeI'd just love to see like how
did you actually do that?
SPEAKER_05 (17:50):
Like, what was the process of getting to this final
text?
SPEAKER_04 (17:54):
Yes.
And again, back to this likequestion of the process.
And I think you don't have totake this dogmatic view of like,
if AI was used, it's not good,or if AI wasn't used, that means
it's authentic.
Um, but I I'm curious, like, youknow, because you you have a
newsletter.
Do you have a tried and trueprocess that you use, or do they
kind of flow kind of randomlybased on you know what you're
(18:15):
thinking at the time?
SPEAKER_05 (18:16):
Every week I take my episode of raising good humans
and I pull out the themes andmaybe I focus on like one thing
that I thought, oh, I want tostretch this out.
Well, to me, my first draft wasprobably the podcast episode.
And so I think it'd beinteresting.
I mean, let's we'll we'll followup with this, but like thinking
(18:36):
about that's a great use of AI.
Can you take my first draft ofthis conversation and tell me
what did you take away?
What were your five takeaways?
SPEAKER_04 (18:45):
Yeah, can I I because I again I want to sort
of like make this meaningful forparents because maybe, you know,
most kids don't have their ownpodcast.
Um, you know, so your kid comesto you, they're supposed to
write some essay or writesomething about a topic.
You know, maybe instead of justsaying, okay, go and read about
it and then like come to meback, come back to me with the
first draft, maybe what you dois you, you know, hit record on
(19:07):
your phone, put it on the table,and just like, let's just talk
about this for like an hour andjust like have a conversation
and like ask some probingquestions and sort of like hear
different sort of likeresponses.
I can quickly transcribe it foryou.
Wow.
And from there, you know, I feelI feel a little bit more
comfortable with, okay, couldyou generate some ideas, maybe
not a first draft, but again,like um, you know, some
(19:29):
potential themes or maybe evenoutlines for a piece of writing.
Um, and I think this commonthread is um, you know, not
being too rigid about, you know,what form learning and thinking
can take.
SPEAKER_05 (19:43):
You know, I think for a lot of kids could be sort
of the answer to how do we getthem a little bit more engaged
on a topic that they might nototherwise I actually think this
goes back to really thinkingthrough this with your
individual, unique, beautifulchild and their brain and how it
works to try to decide how bestto use this resource.
(20:04):
Because what you just said, likeat first glance to me, I'm like,
hold on, that's insane.
Like sitting there, like both,both good and terrifying.
Like, but I would it would neveroccur to me that it was usable
to sit down and have like a realdeep conversation with a learner
(20:25):
and then say, let's see if wecan pull some themes from that,
and then from there let's let'sgrow this paper.
Because I probably would think,well, that is not gonna teach
you how to write.
But actually, if there's a kidwho's not gonna learn, then then
what if they shut downcompletely?
What if they just phone it infor their school years and now
(20:46):
we've unlocked this capacity forthem to believe they are
brilliant and they just didn'thave a way to get deep about
things before.
So for some learners, this couldbe game-changing.
It's all so much to think aboutand so interesting.
(21:07):
Thank you so much for listening.
Join us again next week as weexplore how higher education is
evolving with the AI in mind.
We'll hear from Nick Matte, acomputer science professor at
Tulane University, who'sincorporating AI into the
learning process.
SPEAKER_03 (21:21):
When it was clear that they were being graded on
how well they critiqued the LLM,they got a lot more excited
about it instead of like themtrying to hide the fact that
they use the LLM from us togenerate the text.
SPEAKER_04 (21:31):
And we'll hear from Shantanu Sinna, the founding
president of Khan Academy, andcurrently the VP and general
manager at Google for Education.
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
There's not a lot of times that you look at something
and say, let me take the hardway to do that.
Well, there's an easier way,right?
Yeah.
But it really takes somebodywith broader judgment to say,
well, what's the point of it?
I think educators can reallysupport students to really make
those appropriate choices.
SPEAKER_05 (21:53):
They'll tell us what they think assessing learning
and comprehension will look likein the age of AI and how some
learning institutions arealready evolving with this in
mind.
This is such a huge topic forthose of us working with or
having teenagers.
Look, what does assessinglearning and comprehension look
like?
SPEAKER_04 (22:11):
Find out where AI will take us and future
generations next on raising kidsin the age of AI.
Until then, don't forget tofollow the podcast on Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, YouTube, orwherever you listen so you don't
miss an episode.
SPEAKER_05 (22:24):
And we want to hear from you.
Take a minute to leave us arating and review on your
podcast player of choice.
Your feedback is important tous.
Raising Kids in the Age of AI isa podcast by AIEDU in
collaboration with Google.
It's produced by Kaleidoscope.
For Kaleidoscope, the executiveproducers are Kate Osborne and
(22:44):
Lizzie Jacobs.
Our lead producer is MollySosha, with production
assistance from Irene Bantiguay,with additional production from
Louisa Tucker.
Our video editor is IlyaMagazanen, and our theme song
and music were composed by KyleMurdoch, who also mixed the
episode for us.
See you next time.
Some people think you ask it to write yourself, uh
write you a science fictionnovel, and you hit enter and a
novel pops out.
And that's not how it works.
Even if you could get it towrite a whole novel in that way,
it wouldn't be a novel thatanyone would ever want to read.
The way you write a novel withAI is much, much, much more
(00:25):
interactive.
SPEAKER_04 (00:30):
Lisa, you're a published author, and we're
about to talk about AI andwriting.
I I'm curious for like your takeon this.
SPEAKER_05 (00:37):
Yeah, I have like two minds about it, and most of
it is about the parent side ofit, of like, you still need to
learn how to communicate throughwriting.
But I also know that if I plugin something for AI to write for
me, I would never be able to usethat without changing it
drastically.
(00:58):
And I'm not so worried aboutthat sort of creative part of
writing once you've learned.
What worries me more is like ifyou don't know how.
SPEAKER_04 (01:06):
Yes, 100% to that.
The hardest part about writinganything is not getting the
words onto the piece of paper oronto the electronic document.
It's actually figuring out like,what do you want to say?
Like, what is your perspective?
What is your opinion?
I find that whenever I try touse it, like A, I spend way too
much time trying to get it tosound like I want it to sound.
(01:27):
And then even then, it generallyfeels hollow because I realized
that all that time I spenttrying to like prompt engineer
the AI should have actually beenspent trying to digest, like
what is it that I have to saythat's like unique and
authentic.
I mean, in the same way that wesaw low-fi, low-tech videos on
TikTok totally beating thereally polished like corporate
(01:50):
videos, because like there'sthis huge premium on
authenticity.
You know, I'd rather someonewrite something that doesn't
isn't structured perfectly andjust sounds like them, as
opposed to like the quoteunquote perfect crafted essay.
SPEAKER_05 (02:05):
But in the short term, I also think in a school
setting, for example, ifsomebody had a kid had an essay,
I don't know that the adults arequite there yet, um, or the kids
maybe are quite there yet to beable to distinguish between
what's hollow and sus, as theteenagers would say.
SPEAKER_04 (02:23):
Yeah, sus is a good encapsulation for all this.
Um, and that's what we're goingto dig into on this episode of
Raising Kids in the Age of AI, apodcast from AI EDU Studios
created in collaboration withGoogle.
SPEAKER_05 (02:36):
I'm Dr.
Lisa Pressman, developmentalpsychologist and host of the
podcast Raising Good Humans.
SPEAKER_04 (02:41):
And I'm Alex Katron, founder and CEO of AIEDU, a
nonprofit helping studentsthrive in a world where AI is
everywhere.
Today on the pod, we're talkingabout AI as a writing and
learning partner.
Can it help us spark new ideas?
Or are we taking away ourability to maintain critical
thinking in that process?
And what does it mean in thecontext of being a writer?
SPEAKER_05 (03:04):
Later in the episode, we'll hear once more
from Maureen Haymonds, VP ofLearning at Google.
Maureen joined us in our firstepisode to talk about exploring
interests through AI, and she'llreturn to the pod to share her
insights around using AI as abrainstorming tool and a
learning aid.
SPEAKER_04 (03:20):
But first, we're going to hear from Amet Gupta.
SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
I'm Amit, I'm one of the founders of Suderite, and we
make AI tools for authors.
SPEAKER_04 (03:26):
Early in his writing career, Amet wrote completely by
himself.
And then he got into a writinggroup, and he would workshop his
latest project with them.
But as with so many parts oflife, the pandemic put the
kibosh on meeting up in person.
And it opened the door to anearly introduction to large
language models that began toshift Amit's approach to writing
and brainstorming.
SPEAKER_02 (03:46):
The first time I tried AI was in late 2020.
That's when we actually got uhearly access to it.
We just started playing with itas kind of like this fun toy to
play with words.
One way we were using at thetime was like, oh, I'm stuck.
I've written this, like, uh I'vewritten this chapter and I just
don't know what's supposed tohappen next.
(04:07):
And in the past, I'd just belike thinking and thinking and
thinking, and maybe it wouldtake me a month of like just
walking around and like notworking on it so that I like
eventually just come up with theidea.
And with AI, I will just likeput in everything I know about
the story, random like thoughtsI have, random like bits of
dialogue, maybe this I have thislike backstory or the snippet I
want to use, just throw it allin, like the brain dump.
(04:29):
And then I can talk to it, I canhave it like create a synopsis.
From the synopsis, I can belike, oh, that's not quite
right, or like, oh, there's aninteresting idea here, but the
other stuff isn't working.
So it's almost like a thoughtpartner for what this the core
of the story is.
And then it just like it flowsout much more easily for me.
I can just start writing it.
You can definitely ask the AI toreflect back what it's seeing
(04:52):
that you're missing.
So like I'll still show storiesto other writers to get their
feedback, but I'm probably gonnashow it to the AI first because
it can help me resolve kind ofthe obvious mistakes and the the
silly things that I don't wantmy friends to waste time trying
to fix for me.
I want them to focus on kind ofthe higher level, deeper stuff.
I think one of the things that Ido a lot is I'm like very
(05:15):
precious with my words.
So I spend probably too muchtime in the editing process.
And I'll often know that likethe phrase I'm using or the word
I'm using is not like exactlythe right word.
It's like close, but it's not,it just doesn't have the right
flavor.
And so I'm often using AI tolike just change a single word,
(05:36):
like trying to figure out likegiven this whole story and what
this character cares about inthis moment, like why is this
word wrong?
Or like what are some otherwords?
Writing is thinking, like thatum at its core, that that's what
you're doing.
To get something onto a page,you really have to understand
it.
But I think having aconversation is thinking too.
So when you're having aconversation with someone about
(05:57):
an idea, you're also figuringout what you really believe and
you're being challenged by theother person's point of view and
kind of processing what theythink and responding to that.
So for me, like the hard things,the things that I struggle with
are the like initial spark, likehow do I go from the idea for
the world to like the coreconflict of the inciting
incident that's gonna make itcome alive.
(06:18):
I I would love to be able to doit myself, but I can't.
And if I'm gonna spend likemonths just like gnashing my
teeth, I'd much rather likeeither it's a conversation with
other writers, if I can, if Ican find those writers and
they're willing to talk to meabout it and unlock it, or it's
a conversation with the AI thatgets me through it.
If you are getting started todayas a writer, the problem you're
(06:38):
facing is no different frombefore AI.
Like you still need to find yourvoice, you still need to find
your perspective.
And I think you are more likelyto get past kind of the
structural issues and like thetechnical issues more quickly,
and then you can focus on yourvoice, and I think really create
something special that's yours.
I think one of the mostfrustrating things with AI is
(07:01):
that it sounds like AI.
Like it just sounds like themost mid-version of anyone
that's ever existed, and it likemakes sense because like you add
every color together and it'sjust drab brown or whatever, and
this is just adding every likeword that's ever been written
together, and it just comes outlike paste.
And I think that that's beenlike one of the chief complaints
(07:22):
people have had.
It's like magical, it's amazing,they can do these things, but
why doesn't it sound like me?
It sounds like some somethingelse.
I think it pushes everyone to bebetter, and I think you've seen
this in every creative spacewhere like the technology has
made it easier.
Like a lot of painting beforephotography existed was just
portraits.
You were just trying to createlike a photorealistic like
(07:43):
memory of what this personlooked like, and that doesn't
exist as a job anymore becauseyou can just go like this and
it's done.
Um, but photography is still anart form because anyone can take
a perfect picture, but noteveryone can create art using a
camera.
And I think the same is true ofanything else that AI lets you
do today.
It's gonna it's gonna pushartists to be even better to
(08:04):
really like stand out.
SPEAKER_05 (08:13):
I really loved what he said, and I think it it
perfectly kind of captured theworry about using AI as a
writing partner and the benefitsof using AI as a writing
partner.
Like, and to his point aboutkind of mixing all the colors
together, you get this brownevery time.
(08:33):
But if you have this human beingauthentically creating their
voice and uh figuring out how toexpress themselves, is there a
way to use AI to really elevateyour humanity?
And then I think it could bevery cool.
SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
Yeah, the color analogy is brilliant.
Um, I guess pun intended.
But um this idea of like writingis thinking, you know, I I think
we just need to keep coming backto that.
And that's really, I think,maybe a good heuristic to to
take when you're when you'retrying to ask, you know, is this
a good or a or a bad use of AI?
Is it is it enhancing yourthought on the topic?
(09:12):
There's myriad examples of howsomeone could be using AI to
like sort of like develop theirown perspective and and thought
on a topic.
Like on the converse, if AI isdisplacing that that process,
you know, I think that's whereyou start to run into some red
flags should go up.
SPEAKER_05 (09:29):
Alex, those are like that is a really simple way for
parents to assess support.
Is it enhancing or is itdisplacing?
And I think if we can just askthose two questions and really
get those questions going in ourchildren's minds as they're
interacting with AI, it can beincredibly protective.
SPEAKER_04 (09:48):
Yeah, and just to delve a bit into some of some of
the research, the research istruly all over the place.
There's um lots of studies thatshow AI is, you know, incredibly
valuable in teaching andlearning settings.
There is one study that lookedspecifically at writing.
They took brain scans ofstudents who were writing, uh, I
think it was like SAT essays.
(10:08):
And um, what they found is thatthe students who were, let's
say, over reliant on AI is thatum the parts of the brain that
normally light up during uh sortof like these like deep
metacognitive critical thinkingtasks, uh, they weren't
activating as much.
Small sample size of things like54 subjects.
Um, but it it's it's a reason tobe thoughtful about this.
(10:30):
Most people don't necessarilyhave a writing coach that they
can turn to.
And I think going through thatsort of Socratic process of, you
know, sort of like beingintrospective about what you've
written, is there a better wayfor me to say this point that I
made?
I mean, I don't know, Elise,what what's your take?
I mean, to me, that doesn'traise the same alarm bells as,
you know, just sort of like plugand play.
SPEAKER_05 (10:48):
Exactly.
Because you have to use your owncritical thinking skills in
order to do that iterativeprocess.
And I think the risk would bethe kid who is like, we like I
just asked this question and outpops my essay and I'm done.
And of course, that you canabsolutely see could just turn
the light dimmer down on thosefMRIs.
SPEAKER_04 (11:11):
We need to focus a lot more on the process than
ever before because AI is gonnamake it such that you know
anybody can come up with areally cool output.
Yes.
Um and you know, even an outputthat doesn't look perfect might
actually be a much betterlearning experience if it
includes, you know, this sort ofprocess of learning and
(11:34):
exploration that we know isactually sort of like driving
learning in kids.
SPEAKER_05 (11:39):
In general, when we talk about learning and growth
mindset, we talk about focusingon the process, not the outcome.
That's something that helps kidslearn no matter what we're
thinking about.
It's no different with AI.
SPEAKER_04 (11:54):
Up next, we're gonna hear again from friend of the
pod, Maureen Haymonds, VP ofLearning at Google.
She talks about how AI can be auseful tool to improve your
writing, but she started bysharing something that Amet also
talked about.
How any writing exercise isultimately an exercise in
thinking.
You need to know your materialbefore you write about it.
So Maureen talked about how evenbefore the writing begins, AI
(12:15):
tools can help a student fullygrasp the concept behind the
assignment.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
I think AI is also a great way to kind of explore um
concepts, right?
You can you can ask questions,you can ask clarifying questions
to really understand somethingthat you you it's it's hard to
grasp just with text, right?
But now if you can start puttingthat in images and in uh
simulation and videos, you know,it starts becoming much more
(12:43):
digestible for a lot of people,right?
So I think that's one way thatAI can can really help you
understand any concept and alsodigest a lot of different um
information in differentformats.
So there is this tool calledNotebook LM that enable you to
upload contents about some topicand then will automatically
(13:04):
generate a bunch of ways toconsume that content.
It will let you create asummary, but they will also
create some QA and likeillustration of those concepts.
And then it will also evengenerate completely new format
like podcasts.
And some people might understandbetter concepts if they listen.
So at Google, we have beenthinking a lot of how we can use
(13:25):
AI to really evolve how peoplelearn, right?
Consuming content, whether thisis reading a website or watching
a video, can sometimes feelpretty passive.
And so AI has the opportunity toreally make it much more
interactive, first through aconversation.
And so you start putting theperson really in the driver's
seat of um of the learningbecause they start interacting
(13:47):
with that knowledge.
SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Once you really understand the material, it's
time to write the essay.
But this is the part of thewriting process where it's easy
to get bogged down what exactlyto say or how to say it.
Maureen likes to call in AItools for getting unstuck.
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
AI can be amazing for brainstorming.
Often people might have an idea,but they don't know how to
express it, or they might be alittle bit stuck.
And so, first AI can be thatspringboard, right?
Really get the creative juiceflowing, right?
It's um and really, you know,start, you know, brainstorming
about lots of different ideas.
(14:28):
And then, you know, it canactually provide you feedback
that you get this um, you know,judgment-free, like 24-7 um
feedback tool, right?
That is going to be superconstructive, that can be
targeted to you, and can reallyhelp you refine your ideas and
suggest perspective that youhadn't thought about, right?
(14:48):
But you want to be creativeyourself, right?
You want to generate your own IDand be in charge of that
creativity.
SPEAKER_04 (14:54):
After going deep with the material and
brainstorming what you want tosay about it, it's time to
actually write.
But Maureen cautions (14:59):
don't turn to AI first.
You need to stay in the driver'sseat.
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
When you use AI tools, it's super important that
you don't upload too much of thecognitive exercise to those
tools, right?
You to really want to empoweryour own thinking first.
Or if you want to do somecreative writing, you know,
first write the first draftbefore you go back to AI.
So I think it's important thatyou know we generate our own uh
(15:26):
point of view before we turn tooquickly to AI.
It can be messy.
You just, you know, write downall your ideas, you know, your
personal thought from yourexperience, you know, what you
are trying to express.
And then after that, you can useAI to refine what you are trying
to express in a way that mightbe more digestible, right?
Especially as someone that isnot a native speaker in English,
(15:49):
right?
Sometimes I'm I'm afraid thatwhat I say might be
misinterpreted.
But if I if I really spend thetime to write down all my notes,
you know, even if it's messy andwhat I'm trying to convey, and
then use AI as a companion thatcan make sure that I express
this in the most efficient way,um, I think it can be really
powerful.
So I think a lot of people thinkof AI as a way to save time and
(16:12):
um and it's like a bigproductive boost.
But I think it's important toalso think of how it can really
push forward your um yourthinking, right?
So we should acknowledge ithelps you save time, you know.
But most importantly, I think itcan elevate the quality of of
your um of your thought.
SPEAKER_05 (16:33):
You have to be able to write the first draft before
you go back to AI, is a themewe've heard before.
And I think it's gonna continueto be a really important
takeaway.
I'm just thinking of one of theparents that I work with told me
that his daughter wrote a textthat was like really thoughtful
and organized about, you know, arequest that she had, but it was
(16:58):
so clearly AI generated.
Um but he was at first soimpressed with the way that she
asked the questions and herproposal that he was like about
to bend on a serious boundarybecause it was like, that's such
a good argument.
So I just think I was thinking,did she write a first draft
first?
I don't think so.
SPEAKER_04 (17:17):
I mean, maybe we can even game out like a parent's
reaction to receiving a textlike that.
So um I think it's importantthat you don't immediately just
make an assumption.
I mean, like it like it could bethe case that there actually was
a lot of back and forth andthoughtfulness that went into
um, like, hey, here's like whatmy parents are like and here's
what I need help with.
(17:38):
Um, so so to me, the theresponse could could look
something like this.
This is a really well-writtentext.
Like, can you show me?
I mean, like, I pretty sure youused AI.
I don't no judgment, but likeI'd just love to see like how
did you actually do that?
SPEAKER_05 (17:50):
Like, what was the process of getting to this final
text?
SPEAKER_04 (17:54):
Yes.
And again, back to this likequestion of the process.
And I think you don't have totake this dogmatic view of like,
if AI was used, it's not good,or if AI wasn't used, that means
it's authentic.
Um, but I I'm curious, like, youknow, because you you have a
newsletter.
Do you have a tried and trueprocess that you use, or do they
kind of flow kind of randomlybased on you know what you're
(18:15):
thinking at the time?
SPEAKER_05 (18:16):
Every week I take my episode of raising good humans
and I pull out the themes andmaybe I focus on like one thing
that I thought, oh, I want tostretch this out.
Well, to me, my first draft wasprobably the podcast episode.
And so I think it'd beinteresting.
I mean, let's we'll we'll followup with this, but like thinking
(18:36):
about that's a great use of AI.
Can you take my first draft ofthis conversation and tell me
what did you take away?
What were your five takeaways?
SPEAKER_04 (18:45):
Yeah, can I I because I again I want to sort
of like make this meaningful forparents because maybe, you know,
most kids don't have their ownpodcast.
Um, you know, so your kid comesto you, they're supposed to
write some essay or writesomething about a topic.
You know, maybe instead of justsaying, okay, go and read about
it and then like come to meback, come back to me with the
first draft, maybe what you dois you, you know, hit record on
(19:07):
your phone, put it on the table,and just like, let's just talk
about this for like an hour andjust like have a conversation
and like ask some probingquestions and sort of like hear
different sort of likeresponses.
I can quickly transcribe it foryou.
Wow.
And from there, you know, I feelI feel a little bit more
comfortable with, okay, couldyou generate some ideas, maybe
not a first draft, but again,like um, you know, some
(19:29):
potential themes or maybe evenoutlines for a piece of writing.
Um, and I think this commonthread is um, you know, not
being too rigid about, you know,what form learning and thinking
can take.
SPEAKER_05 (19:43):
You know, I think for a lot of kids could be sort
of the answer to how do we getthem a little bit more engaged
on a topic that they might nototherwise I actually think this
goes back to really thinkingthrough this with your
individual, unique, beautifulchild and their brain and how it
works to try to decide how bestto use this resource.
(20:04):
Because what you just said, likeat first glance to me, I'm like,
hold on, that's insane.
Like sitting there, like both,both good and terrifying.
Like, but I would it would neveroccur to me that it was usable
to sit down and have like a realdeep conversation with a learner
(20:25):
and then say, let's see if wecan pull some themes from that,
and then from there let's let'sgrow this paper.
Because I probably would think,well, that is not gonna teach
you how to write.
But actually, if there's a kidwho's not gonna learn, then then
what if they shut downcompletely?
What if they just phone it infor their school years and now
(20:46):
we've unlocked this capacity forthem to believe they are
brilliant and they just didn'thave a way to get deep about
things before.
So for some learners, this couldbe game-changing.
It's all so much to think aboutand so interesting.
(21:07):
Thank you so much for listening.
Join us again next week as weexplore how higher education is
evolving with the AI in mind.
We'll hear from Nick Matte, acomputer science professor at
Tulane University, who'sincorporating AI into the
learning process.
SPEAKER_03 (21:21):
When it was clear that they were being graded on
how well they critiqued the LLM,they got a lot more excited
about it instead of like themtrying to hide the fact that
they use the LLM from us togenerate the text.
SPEAKER_04 (21:31):
And we'll hear from Shantanu Sinna, the founding
president of Khan Academy, andcurrently the VP and general
manager at Google for Education.
SPEAKER_01 (21:38):
There's not a lot of times that you look at something
and say, let me take the hardway to do that.
Well, there's an easier way,right?
Yeah.
But it really takes somebodywith broader judgment to say,
well, what's the point of it?
I think educators can reallysupport students to really make
those appropriate choices.
SPEAKER_05 (21:53):
They'll tell us what they think assessing learning
and comprehension will look likein the age of AI and how some
learning institutions arealready evolving with this in
mind.
This is such a huge topic forthose of us working with or
having teenagers.
Look, what does assessinglearning and comprehension look
like?
SPEAKER_04 (22:11):
Find out where AI will take us and future
generations next on raising kidsin the age of AI.
Until then, don't forget tofollow the podcast on Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, YouTube, orwherever you listen so you don't
miss an episode.
SPEAKER_05 (22:24):
And we want to hear from you.
Take a minute to leave us arating and review on your
podcast player of choice.
Your feedback is important tous.
Raising Kids in the Age of AI isa podcast by AIEDU in
collaboration with Google.
It's produced by Kaleidoscope.
For Kaleidoscope, the executiveproducers are Kate Osborne and
(22:44):
Lizzie Jacobs.
Our lead producer is MollySosha, with production
assistance from Irene Bantiguay,with additional production from
Louisa Tucker.
Our video editor is IlyaMagazanen, and our theme song
and music were composed by KyleMurdoch, who also mixed the
episode for us.
See you next time.
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