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July 31, 2025 89 mins

What if the very traits that society labels as a "disability" are actually your greatest strengths?

In this week's episode of aiEDU Studios, John Marble (author of Neurodiversity for Dummies and Autism for Dummies) takes us on a remarkable journey from his early days making White House beer runs to becoming a respected neurodiversity advocate and thought leader. 

John's story begins unexpectedly when, as a community college student, he volunteered during Al Gore's debate prep, which led to a White House internship and eventually a career in politics and innovation. But the most powerful moment came when he finally disclosed his autism to a senior colleague, who responded not with accommodation strategies but with a profound question: "Have you ever thought that your autism has helped you in your career?" 

Our conversation explored the everyday challenges that neurodivergent individuals face (from deciphering unwritten social rules to navigating workplace communication) while highlighting how different cultures accommodate neurodiversity in surprising ways. John explains how some countries' communication styles naturally align with autistic thinking patterns, making him feel instantly more at ease in places like Finland or Germany compared to the U.S. 

Of course, we also talked about AI and how AI tools have become invaluable thinking partners for neurodivergent individuals. John shared how large language models (LLMs) helped him write his books by serving as sounding boards and empathy enhancers, allowing him to better understand and address diverse audience needs. Yet, he also emphasizes a critical point that technology developers consistently miss – the importance of involving neurodivergent people in designing the very tools meant to support them. 

Learn more about John Marble and his Pivot Neurodiversity organization:



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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (00:05):
All right, we're live with AIEDU Studios
here in San Francisco.
I'm Alex Katran, I'm the CEO ofthe AI Education Project and
I'm here with a very good friend, one of my oldest friends from
my time in Washington, johnMarble.
John, thank you so much forbeing here.

John Marble (00:20):
Thanks for having me, thanks for the kind
introduction.
You know me well.
Enough Could be much worse.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (00:28):
You know.
Normally I would say, oh, johndoes X, y, z, but I think it's
actually really hard to put myfinger on all the things that
you do.
You're a renaissance man, ifthere ever was one, so can you
tell me, like how, like whenpeople ask you you know what do
you do?
How do you respond to that?
When you're in the elevator,you're at a I don't know if
you're frequent- cocktailparties.

John Marble (00:49):
But you know, it's funny because one of the many
things I do is teach studentsand I teach them this.
But have I learned that lessonmyself?
I have not.
So if I'm going to summarize it, I probably actually should
work on it if I'm giving lessonsabout this, but probably to
summarize it is, I educatecompanies and organizations
about neurodiversity and also dosome deep thinking on it as

(01:13):
well.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:14):
How long have you been doing?
And this is your work at PivotNeurodiversity?
Yeah, but you're also in theconference circuit.
You're not just a consultant,as it were, or you're actually
on the speaking circuit.
We're going to talk about yourbook.

John Marble (01:25):
I say I need to work on an elevator pitch
because, uh, yeah, I need toreally learn how to condense
that all all down.
So I do a lot of speaking, do alot of writing, um,
traditionally on innovation, butmore and more on neurodiversity
probably the majority now onneurodiversity, um, but have a
background in helping companiesreally understand what makes for

(01:47):
effective organizations.
So sometimes I'm pulled in thatdirection.
But more and more I'm gettingto ask about different
neurodivergent conditions,neurodiversity at work.
Just a lot of people saying,hey, I have a friend who maybe
as a child, is trying to figurethemselves out.
So, yeah, not a, not a neatelevator pitch, but if we had a

(02:10):
long elevator ride, that's it.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (02:12):
Well, and we haven't even we haven't even
gotten to your book.
I think you're you'rerelatively new as an author.

John Marble (02:20):
Yes and no.
A lot of people don't realize.
So I've been writing for a longtime.
I started out early in mycareer as a journalist working
for a newspaper.
Starting out doing sportsentertainment features, went
from that to a bit ofghostwriting over the years,
writing increasingly forpoliticians whether that's

(02:43):
speeches or parts of books, andediting as well, and for the
first time, putting things outnow at least for the first time
since the beginning of my careerin my actual voice, which is a
bit different.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (02:55):
And we're going to talk about sort of how
you developed that voice.
You're the author ofNeurodiversity for Dummies.
Yes, you're the author ofNeurodiversity for Dummies.
Yes, surprising that therewasn't one of those out already.

John Marble (03:08):
There was not, and even more surprising to me was
that there wasn't really a goodfoundational book on the subject
.
There are a lot of good slicesthat were out there.
So when I started writingNeurodiversity for dummies for
the four dummies line of books,I had a lot of pressure to
actually get it right because Irealized, oh, we're synthesizing

(03:30):
a lot of things that haven'tbeen put together before.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (03:34):
Was what about like?
Was there autism for dummiesthere?

John Marble (03:38):
was an older, outdated book about autism for
the four dummies line and itsounds like a setup, but it's
not.
Later this year and at thebeginning of May we'll be coming
out with Autism for Dummies.
So just wrapping that up now.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (03:55):
Okay, well, we're going to get back to that
.
But you mentioned your time inpolitics.
I met you in Washington when Iwas beginning my very nascent
career in politics after theObama campaign and I met you at
a.
It was an Obama campaign alumnior appointee happy hour.

John Marble (04:15):
Oh yeah, that's right.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (04:17):
It's funny because actually other really
key people in my life who led meto my path exploring artificial
intelligence I also met at thathappy hour, Todd Elmer.

John Marble (04:28):
I never realized that.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (04:29):
Um, so there's so much to talk about.
We're going to fast forwardthrough your time as a
journalist.
Uh, and then you're in thisworld of politics.
Like how did you fall into that?
Was it something you alwayswanted to do, or?

John Marble (04:42):
Oh, that is a long and twisted tale or road.
I'm trying to think of how I'veliterally not literally, but I
pretty much did just fall intoit.
I was a, I'm going to datemyself.
I usually don't like tellingthis because it reveals how old
I am, but I was just completingmy, I think, sophomore year at

(05:03):
community college and it just sohappened that Al Gore was
coming to my hometown for a weekto do debate prep.
So they asked for volunteersand I volunteered taking, you
know, white House staffers onbeer runs and like running
errands and just that sort ofthing.
And at the end of the weeksomebody encouraged me to apply
for a White House internship andI did, and at that time White

(05:27):
House internships weren't reallymerit based.
I remember showing up at theWhite House after I got it and
people are like oh, my dad'smayor of so and so and my mom's
ambassador to whatever.
And I'm like I'm John and Ijust finished community college
down in Florida.
Community college down inFlorida, um, and went from there

(05:48):
and started working for theWhite House for the last two
years of college doing advanced.
So every couple of months woulddo a White House trip and then,
uh, left college early to joina presidential campaign.
So I never planned to go intopolitics but it kind of found me
and kept pulling me forward andforward, and forward, but it
kind of found me and keptpulling me forward and forward
and forward and you also?

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (06:08):
worked in the Obama administration.
What did you do there?

John Marble (06:13):
Yeah, so I was in the Office of Personnel
Management.
So I went in as acommunications specialist
because I had a background inpress relations and mass
communication but also had apassion for what makes
workforces effective, Ended updoing a lot around innovation.
There we had this young guynamed Matt Collier who had just

(06:34):
graduated college, kind of atypical Silicon Valley type, who
came in to kind of break thingsand really think through new
types of things.
I had gotten to understand thebureaucracy well enough that I
kind of served as a gatekeeperto.
You know, slap his hand when itneeded to be slapped, but also

(06:57):
help him navigate the red tape.
So we ended up doing a wholeinitiative around innovation,
which I had never thought I'd bereally passionate about
workplace issues until westarted working on that.
Because once we started lookingat what really makes for
innovative workplaces, westarted to see what really makes

(07:19):
for effective workplaces.
So I became very passionateabout that.
Effective workplaces so Ibecame very passionate about
that.
Spent a lot of time coming outto California meeting with
Silicon Valley, trying toincorporate outside thinking
into government and over thoseyears realized, oh, it's really
nice out here.
I knew my job would be endingwhen the president ended, so

(07:41):
transitioned out to here aftermy time working for the
government.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (07:47):
And so the majority of the companies you
advise today.
They're generally techcompanies.

John Marble (07:52):
It's a mix.
It started with that and thenwe started to get a lot of local
government organizations,colleges, universities and now
different types of privatecompanies.
And when I started PivotNeurodiversity it was because a
lot of people were coming to mewanting to hire and recruit

(08:14):
different neurodivergent talent,but they really weren't sure
how to do that.
There are some initiatives outthere that would help them, but
I started to realize, well, holdon, all these companies
actually have neurodivergenttalent within them already.
So a lot of that work startedtransitioning to helping
companies understand theirneurodivergent employees and how

(08:35):
to support them in ways thatthey could thrive.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (08:39):
And your work in neurodiversity did it.
I mean, was there anyintersection Like where did that
sort of start to bloom?
Because you know you're workingin neurodiversity?
Was there any intersection?
Where did that start to bloomBecause you were working in
politics?

John Marble (08:53):
Did neurodiversity come up in your role there, or
was it something that, you beinghonest, I moved out here not
really sure what I would bedoing?
I had spent enough time comingout to California that I
realized oh, I have talents thatfit here, but I wasn't sure

(09:15):
exactly how, and so I hadsavings.
I moved out here, but my brainjust went back to me working my
way through college and I was, Ithought, well, I did manual
labor, then I know how to dothat.
So I took a job at a warehouselike a minimum wage job at a
warehouse Meanwhile, like I'mfielding calls from different
tech companies on my lunch breakjust asking me advice about

(09:38):
different employment things, andit took a friend to help me
realize that I was giving away alot of that information for
free and I didn't realize thatwas something that you could be
paid for for your knowledge, andso we were talking about that.

(10:00):
Happen to be teaching as well,who happen to be as well
teaching autistic young adultswho are trying to transition to
work.
So I met with Jack.
I met the students andimmediately felt a connection
and realized oh, this issomething that I need to do and
I still teach in that program.

(10:21):
It's called NeurodiversityPathways.
It's run by Goodwill of SiliconValley down in San Jose and it
was really teaching thesestudents who some of them had
multiple degrees, because theycould figure out how to get
through school, but theycouldn't figure out how to make
that transition to work Becamereally passionate about that,

(10:44):
and it was in connecting thosestudents to different job
opportunities that I started tofield a lot of questions from
companies about what do we doabout neurodiversity, and it
became more than just getting mystudents jobs.
It became about how do wereally make sure all these
organizations can thrive when itcomes around neurodiversity?

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (11:08):
so you mentioned you had to out
yourself.
Um, and you know, even just youknow, thinking back to when I
was in high school, there's beenuh, it feels like there's
people significantly more opento having the conversation about
neurodivergence and there's awhole conversation to be had

(11:29):
about, you know, the umbrellaand sort of all the different
sort of like sub communitieswithin the neurodivergent
community.
But so when you were in DC,were there other neurodivergent
mentors?
How did that actually happen?

John Marble (11:48):
I had to find them and in fact I remember the
moment that really changed mycareer and I really do think it
changed my life and it was DaveNoble who I believe at the time
was deputy director of WhiteHouse personnel.
He invited me to lunch at thewhite house mess and in my
experience, at a pointy I was apresidential appointee.

(12:10):
But a presidential appointee atmy level doesn't usually eat at
the white house mess, and ifsomebody like me gets invited by
white house personnel to thewhite house mess, it usually
means you're getting a promotionor maybe you're being shown the
door.
Thank you for your service.
Here's a nice lunch.
Here's some presidential M&Ms.

(12:30):
We're going in a differentdirection, so I was nervous.
It turned out neither was thecase.
Dave just wanted to catch upand know what I was up to and
specifically know what I wasdoing in Silicon Valley and hear
about the work that our officewas doing.
So we had a great lunch and atthe end of lunch I said Dave, I

(12:52):
need to tell you something thatonly my parents and my best
friend and my doctor knows.
But I have autism and I need toask my manager for an
accommodation and I'm not surehow to do that and it got really
quiet for what I thought was ahalf hour, but it was probably

(13:14):
0.0001 seconds.
But I was so nervous and hisresponse changed my life.
He said John, that's fantastic.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (13:26):
And I paused and he looked at me and
he says you seem a bit confusedand I'm like well, yeah, I am.

John Marble (13:29):
He said we've known each other a long time.
He was my boss in a previousrole.
He said you're definitely anodd guy.
And he said that in a way thatwas very endearing.
Sometimes when I tell the storypeople get upset with him.
But he knew me well enough thathe could say you're definitely
an odd guy, but you think aboutthings differently.

(13:51):
Have you ever thought that yourautism has helped you in your
career?
And I said no, I've overcome it.
I've hidden it quite well frommy colleagues.
I've papered over it.
What are you talking about?
And Dave said no, john, likethink about the things that

(14:13):
you've worked on.
You think about thingsdifferently, and that's needed
in the workplace.
He said my job in White Housepersonnel is to bring together
people with differentperspectives so that they can
accomplish big things and tacklebig problems.
And he said you work ininnovation.
What is the first rule ofinnovation that you always tell
me?
And I said well, if you want alarger array of potential

(14:34):
outcomes, you have to have alarger array of potential inputs
.
And he was like exactly so.
I can't have everybody comefrom the same geographic region
or the same educationalbackground or the same
demographic background.
I need people coming togetherto look at things differently so
that we can solve thoseproblems.
And he said I will help youfigure out how to get your

(14:57):
accommodation, but I need you tofigure out how to be
comfortable with yourself andbring that to work.
I share that story a lot withmanagers because it was
something that I didn't expect.
It probably took me anotheryear to really start to accept
that I was autistic, but Iwouldn't have done that if not
for Dave.

(15:17):
So Dave told me I will help youget your accommodation, but I
need you to figure out yourselfand be comfortable with that and
bring it to work.
And it took me about a year tostart to do that.
And to this day we cannotremember what that accommodation
was, which is so funny becauseI built it up so big in my head

(15:37):
that I had to ask my manager forthis, and I recently texted
Dave about this and neither ofus can remember what it is.
But I'll get the quote wrong,but it paraphrased the Maya
Angelou quote about people don'tremember what you say, but they

(15:58):
remember how you make them feel.
And it was really that feelingof like.
Oh well, this is like mymanager's manager's manager, who
is treating this as totallynormal and as something that I
just needed for my job.
And that really had a profoundimpact on me.
And after about a year I reallystarted to apply my different
ways of thinking to work, and atthat point I started to get

(16:20):
called into meetings that werefar beyond my portfolio.
You know, how do we stop Ebolafrom jumping the Atlantic, how
do we make TSA lines shorterwithout jeopardizing security?
And it wasn't because I hadsome sort of superpower.
I just had another variablethat I looked at some things
differently.
So adding me into the equationturned out to be a benefit.

(16:44):
If I'm being honest, when Iteach my students, that's a
great story on paper about howyou learn to love yourself and
accept yourself and bring it towork.
But if I'm being honest, it's alesson that I think that I have
to teach myself again and again, especially in a world that's
not really designed for autisticthinkers like myself.

(17:04):
Just to remind myself oh yeah,I'm normal.
I might be different.
I might need to learn how totranslate that between me and
colleagues or me and friends,but there's nothing inherently
wrong with me.
And again, that sounds easy onpaper, but it's the hardest
lesson that I've had to learn.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (17:24):
So I don't want to put you on the spot, but
you know when, when you'redescribing your career in
politics, you're an entrepreneur, um, you know you're on an
international speaking circuit.
You know and I was reallyexcited for this podcast because
I feel like you know often, youknow you're, you're you're very
often the life of the party.
You're a storyteller, you'reengaging you're you're, you're
very often the life of the party, you're a storyteller, you're

(17:46):
engaging, you're gregarious, umand so so, to our, our listeners
and viewers, who are kind ofwondering, like well, like what
were those challenges?
Like, and if you'll, if you'rewilling to sort of divulge, like
what are some of the thingsthat you've had to overcome?
Yeah Well, how does it?

John Marble (18:03):
manifest.
Well, well, first of all, thankyou for sharing that, because
it's difficult to pick up onneurotypical social cues, so I
don't know if I'm the life ofthe party, so you saying that
actually um helps a lot.
Oh, that is a big bucket ofthings.
Do you mean like professionallyor or personally, or?

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (18:21):
yeah, just just reach into the hat.
Doesn't have to be the biggestthing, but just one sort of one
sort of thing that you deal withday to day that a neurotypical
person just probably doesn'tyeah, can I start with social
situations?

John Marble (18:33):
can I maybe center around you, if that's okay?
Um so, being autistic, I alsohave a couple other
neurodivergent conditions ADHD,dyscalculia as well.
But being autistic, it can bedifficult for me to pick up on
cultural cues that aren'tnatural to me.

(18:54):
So say, if we're at arestaurant and the group decides
to go to a bar afterwards,there's a lot of subtle social
cues that go on that I'm reallynot sure if I'm supposed to go
to the next place or not.
So I think that you and someother people are really good
about saying John, we're goingto the second location, would

(19:17):
you like to come with us?
And then at that point Irealized, oh yeah, otherwise I
would be terrified and I justwouldn't go to that second
location.
I think I've asked you before.
You've had dinner parties andyou've told me like, about a
dinner party, and I've had toask you.
You've given me thepsychological safety to ask,
like, are you inviting me tothis dinner party?

(19:37):
Are you just telling I'm like,I'm really happy that you're
doing this dinner party, butwithout that certainty of having
a direct invitation, that'sreally difficult.
I often like to joke that a lotof autistic people socially are
like Dracula or vampires onyour doorstep, like we need a
specific invitation to comeinside or else we can't come

(19:58):
inside.
So definitely like directcommunication helps and that
translates to the workplace aswell.
There's a lot of communicationthat goes on in workplaces that
are implied and if you're notneurotypical, that can be
difficult to pick up on.
Also, if you happen to be animmigrant, that could be

(20:21):
difficult to pick up on.
There's a lot of parallelsbetween neurodivergent thinkers
and other groups in theworkplace that a lot of times
I'll go into an organization totalk about neurodiversity but
end up talking about othergroups as well, because it's
different life experiences, butsometimes the barriers can be
the same and I you'll, you'llunderstand the path that I'm

(20:44):
leading us down, because I dowant to talk about artificial
intelligence and some of theways that it either intersects
with neurodiversity.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (20:57):
Just thinking back to even when you
were launching PivotNeurodiversity and you were sort
of describing to me thechallenges, it really felt like
with you once the ball isrolling down the hill, like
everything sort of is, it'salmost like it flows intuitively
from you, um, but I feel likevery often you'd come to me and
it would just and you'd be stuckon.
You know, not hard stuff, yeah,but just like the small stuff,

(21:22):
the obvious stuff the how, howam I like?
should I be asking for money?
For this is like you're evenyour story about your friend.
It's like yes yeah of courseyou should.
Um, and I I was curious if youcould just maybe go into that a
little bit more, like are thereany stories about sort of just
moments that things thatneurotypical people maybe not
don't even think about, that areactually really challenging for

(21:43):
you, and sort of just momentsthat things that neurotypical
people maybe don't even thinkabout, that are actually really
challenging for you, and sort of?

John Marble (21:48):
Yeah, I have a couple and I still have those
challenges.
Like I almost asked you beforewe started taping today for
advice on a couple of thosethings, and we can get into the
why it happens.
But I just remember a couple ofthings.
I remember one time havinglunch with my friend a different
Alex, but my friend Alex in LA,he's autistic, he's a producer,

(22:11):
he's also been on theconference circuit and before I
really started public speakinghe said yeah, I think as
autistic people, we're oftenreluctant to ask for our
speaking fees.
And I said what do you meanspeaking fees?
And he said have you not beengetting paid?
I'm like no, like I needed thatexample of like oh no, this is

(22:32):
something that people will payyou for and this is how you go
about it.
A lot of times autistic peoplewithout that sort of example, we
just don't know.
Another example of that is whenI moved to San Francisco,
started to build my LinkedInprofile and started asking
friends for help building myLinkedIn profile.

(22:54):
I said I cognitively don'tunderstand how to do this.
And friends would laugh at me,not in a mean way, but they
would say, john, haven't you?
been to LinkedIn before, and I'mlike yeah, I've met with their
founder and their president andwe've had all sorts of great
policy discussions.
I don't cognitively understandhow to build a LinkedIn profile.

(23:17):
I've tried.
None of my friends believed meand it took going to a group
called Ascend, which is here inSan Francisco, and it's a group
of autistic adults and familymembers and researchers.
They partnered one weekend withLinkedIn to explain how to
build a LinkedIn profile in away that the autistic brain
would understand, and watchingthat I'm like, oh, now I get

(23:41):
that.
It's such a little thing thatit's hard to translate to
friends.
Exactly the things that I stillstruggle with and you mentioned
, like difficulty getting thingsstarted, that's also very much
a trait of a lot of people withADHD.
It's like the law of once inmotion, an object will continue

(24:03):
to stay in motion, but actuallygetting that motion can be
difficult.
So I one of my greatest desiresis that there's more education
to neurodivergent people,especially to autistic thinkers,
about these little types ofthings.

(24:23):
Once we figure it out, we canget really good at it, but
unless we're kind of shown theexample, it can be pretty
difficult to start.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (24:34):
And you've been fortunate.
You may not have been born to asilver spoon, but you managed
to surround yourself withmentors and advisors and friends
.
You know, manage to surroundyourself with mentors and
advisors and friends.
What is the lived experiencelike for someone who is?
And maybe we can focus onautism, because you know it's

(24:58):
there's?
I mean, I understand, evenwithin autism there's sort of
like a broad spectrum.
But for you know, for someonewho graduates high school,
they're going into the workplace, like, how easy or hard is it
for someone to find a mentor orsomeone to just like sort of
walk them through?
Sure, it's easy stuff, but youstill need somebody that cares
and that you feel comfortableasking for help.
And I'm I'm just curious being,you know you're in the front
lines of this.
I mean, you support students.

(25:19):
Is this, you know?
Is this everywhere?
Like, you know, where do peopleturn?

John Marble (25:23):
what I worry that it's becoming more difficult
because I I feel like somebodymy age regardless of whether
you're autistic or not it wasjust very much emphasized to
find mentors and and find peoplewho could guide you along.
So, unrelated to autism, I wasvery fortunate early on to have
career mentors that I still keepin touch with who were able to

(25:46):
help me out.
As far as like the autism stuff.
You know, it felt like I didn'treally have anybody and it felt
like autistic people were kindof trading information back and
forth about what works, whatdoesn't it still feels that way
to a large extent what doesn't.

(26:08):
It still feels that way to alarge extent.
But I think that people my ageare starting to figure out
things, to kind of codify thisknowledge so that we could pass
it on.
It's part of the reason why I'mwriting books, it's part of the
reason why I'm doing otherthings, and so I look at it and
think you know, oh, we're 10years younger, we're 20 years
younger, but we are where we are.

(26:29):
And I still have times in lifethat I'm still figuring things
out and I'm like, oh, yeah, Iyeah, somebody should have shown
me this 20 years ago, but I'mjust now realizing that.
Oh yeah, this is a gap inknowledge that I might have, but
it does feel like I've had tofigure out a lot of that myself
or find other people who figuredout their portions and I

(26:49):
figured out this portion, and wetrade information back and
forth.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (26:55):
It's interesting because so much
money flows to nonprofitorganizations working on autism.
Where does it go?

John Marble (27:05):
This is the bane of my existence.
Less than 1% of autism fundingin the United States goes to
issues that really supportautistic people and their
families across the lifespan,meaning like, once they're 18,
how are they going to live inlife?
You know, what are theaccommodations that they need?
What does it look like whenautistic people marry and form

(27:28):
relationships?
What about aging?
Most of it goes into trying tofigure out who we are, which is
an interesting thing to study,but not really a lot of the
practical things that we need inlife.
So it's not officially part ofmy job, but I meet with a lot of
autism researchers, show up toa lot of scientific conferences

(27:49):
to try to, you know, help slowlymove the focus into the
practical things that we needand I'm not the only person
doing it, and I think that themore that we see specifically
autistic people kind of exercisethe voice and, hey, these are
things that we need we'restarting to see a larger focus
on that.
There's now an association ofautistic autism researchers.

(28:13):
There's an association ofautistic doctors and medical
professionals.
You know, again, these arepeople who've traded information
back and forth betweenthemselves but are now saying we
need our, our industries tobetter understand the autistic
experience and, by proxy, thedifferent neurodivergent

(28:35):
experiences that are out there.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (28:38):
Yeah, I'd like to go down this, this path
of AI and talk about.
You know, something that westruggle with at AIEDU is this
question of how much AI shouldwe have in schools.
Should this be in front ofevery single student?
I don't want to go down thatrabbit hole.

(28:58):
The answer, for us at least, isit's complicated.
The answer for us, at least, isit's complicated.
We worry about.
I mean, there's traditionalthings that you hear like, you
know like bias and thealgorithms, which is definitely
a huge problem and almostcertainly unsolvable or very
likely unsolvable when you'veworked around there's.
You know access, there's cost,there's the risk of you know.

(29:20):
AI becoming a crutch andactually getting in the way of
learning.
You know AI becoming a crutchand actually getting in the way
of learning, but when someoneasks me should schools be using
AI, should students have accessto AI, I do sort of come back to
.
There are certain, certainstudents for whom this could
really be transformational, andI and part of what actually led

(29:41):
me to that is even just theconversations you and I had
about how you've been usinglanguage models in helping you
write your book, and even withthe things that you described
like sort of like how to, howdoes you know polite society
deal with X, Y, Z?
These are things that languagemodels are very good at, and
it's someone that's not going tojudge you that you could always
turn to just ask for advice.

(30:04):
My guess is that most languagemodels out today would probably
do a pretty good job helping youread social cues, and so that's
an assumption that I have, andI think what we at AIDU and even
the panel that we're going tobe speaking at at South by
Southwest I think the goal ofyou know work that we've been
embarking on over the next yearis try to really test that

(30:27):
assumption and and the way weget there is by really having,
you know folks in the communitybe the ones that tell us.
So I'm curious for your take.
I mean, you've you, I know thatyou've used it Like, do you
have a big picture?
Are you pro AI, Like was ittransformational or was it sort
of just somewhat useful?
I mean, like, just tell meabout what you know, how
language models sort of likestarted to fit into your life

(30:50):
and you know, maybe from therewe can talk about the bigger
picture implications of thatwell, let me actually back you
up a bit and make the case firstfor ai, education for all
students, and then it happens,maybe to benefit some of us a
bit more.

John Marble (31:07):
I tend to think of AI and AI education along the
lines of what Neil deGrasseTyson talks about with science
education.
He has various quotes aboutthis, but he basically makes the
point that it's not necessarilythat we need more scientists,
but we need a scientificallyliterate population, and he

(31:29):
gives a lot of reasons why theimplications for policy and
advancement I think I heard himtalk about.
One time a reporter asked himabout his own daughters, if he
wanted his daughters to bescientists, and he says well, I
at least want them to bescientifically literate and then
they can do what they want to.

(31:50):
I think about the same with AI.
I think that we need apopulation that's AI literate,
not that they're going to go andactually enter fields that
directly create.
AI but it's beneficial if wehave a population that's
literate.
And I kind of think of anexample when I teach my students

(32:11):
.
So I still teach autistic adultswho are either transitioning to
work or trying to advance intheir career, and I give a
couple lessons on the future ofwork and I always show them a
photo of an old switchboardtelephone operator and ask them
what this photo is and sadly,year after year, less and less

(32:33):
people actually know what it isbecause it's so outdated.
And I talk with them about howthere's always been this fear
that technology will take awayjobs.
But in reality our jobscontinue to morph and it's been
that same sort of pattern forthe last several hundred years.
So when I teach them, my focusis not on getting them advanced

(32:59):
technical information notnecessarily educating them about
the ins and outs of AI, butreally helping them understand
how the nature of work shiftsand we can't predict what that
is, but being prepared for thatand to critically think about
those things can really positionthem well.

(33:20):
So when it comes to AI, I kindof use AI in sort of an art
group manner what I'm gettingfrom AI and whether it's giving

(33:48):
me something that smells alittle bit fishy or is really
helpful, and being aware of thathas really helped me kind of
use AI as a tool in my work andalso as a way to teach my
students, and I feel like I lostthe last half of what you asked
me.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (34:05):
I don't know if you remember what that
was Well, yeah, he just made mewalk me through some.
What are some of the ways thatyou used AI in writing your book
?

John Marble (34:15):
Yeah, so I use large language models when we're
writing our first book and Ishould say that I've co-authored
it with two wonderfulcolleagues, krish Puchab
Chhabria and Ranga Jayaraman andusing AI it was so helpful to
help me think through things.
I remember you know it's a fourdummies book, so we need to

(34:38):
make it pretty digestible forreaders and some.
You know, if I'm explaining thegenetic underpinnings of autism
, I have to do it in a way thatthe public will kind of
understand, and so I even forgetwhat point I was using in the
neurodiversity book.
But I was trying to think ofkind of an example and I'm like

(34:59):
I think there's an example therewith maybe Polynesian sailors,
and just started to talk tolarge language models about,
yeah, who are the first peopleto set out in Micronesia?
Where did they come from?
And it was like this hour-longconversation to get to the point
of, oh, all of a sudden I havea really great narrative that I

(35:20):
want to write in my book, and soit wasn't using AI to kind of
look for answers, but reallyusing AI in a way that would
help me think about things andalso to kind of edit myself as
well.
I think I'm a pretty good editor.
I love editing other people'swork.
I love editing my work.
But AI is a pretty good editortoo.

(35:40):
If I were to ask it something,I'm like oh you know what?
I really should have cut thatword that it suggests cutting.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (35:46):
So deeply appreciative of that um yeah, we
had the uh founders ofkaleidoscope, which is one of
the leading podcast studios, andthe big insight from that
conversation was just the powerof storytelling.
And, you know, engagingstudents like student engagement
in schools, is so difficult.
Students are checking out, theydon't feel like learning is

(36:09):
relevant and what you justdescribed to me is sort of I
mean, it feels really repeatablefor educators.
It's like you want to engagesomebody in learning, telling a
compelling story, findingsomething surprising funny.

John Marble (36:24):
This is going to sound weird, but you're making
me realize that I really,especially in writing the books,
that I really used AI toexpress empathy.
And it sounds weird on surface,but just thinking about things
of like okay, I am writing thisparticular chapter that is maybe

(36:44):
addressed to parents with kidswho have more complex needs, who
might be non-speaking, reallyusing AI to kind of delve down
into the specific challengesthat they have.
You know, I'm not one of thoseparents.
I have friends who are thoseparents.
But working with my friends andworking with AI to really
uncover, okay, what are thosepressure points Doing the same

(37:07):
thing in chapters addressed toeducators or therapists of
figuring out, okay, how can Iapply even more empathy here?
Of, like you know, these peoplehave a lot of other things to
deal with.
And now I'm going to add onunderstanding neurodiversity to
that.
How do I do this in a waythat's not taxing to them but

(37:29):
digestible, in a way that theyreally understand?
And I hadn't thought.
I wish I had a more polishedanswer for you because I haven't
really thought about itconsciously until now.
But looking back, I realized,oh well, I did use that a lot
specifically to think about like, okay, okay, I'm making this
particular argument that otherpeople might disagree with

(37:50):
asking language models.
How would I do this in a waythat somebody completely opposed
to what I'm saying would stillfind value in it?
And again, it's.
I don't think that you'd expectlanguage models to give you
perfect answers but it gave meinsights that really then opened
my thinking even broader andled me to deeper conversations

(38:11):
that I really think reallybenefited our work.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (38:15):
You're describing basically the ideal
scenario.
What I didn't hear is thatyou're using AI to write
passages.
My guess is that it probablywould not have done a good job,
having read the book and you doan incredible job.
It's sort of light, it's funny,it can also get quite nerdy and

(38:36):
deep, but it sort of pulls backat just the right moments and
we struggle with this a lot.
A teacher and this generally isin the form of educators coming
to us and they're sort of likeokay, I'm here, how do I learn
how to prompt?
engineer.
I'm like what are the?
What are the?
What prompts do I need tomemorize to do XYZ?
And there's a lot of folks outthere that well, even there's, I

(38:56):
think people are selling likeprompt Bibles where you can like
memorize the prompts.
And you know, I I'm quiteconvicted that there is no magic
prompt that you should be usingwith these tools.
It's it's a lot more aboutexperimentation plus domain
expertise.
So you have the domainexpertise and you were
experimenting.
And I remember the first timewhen you were telling me you

(39:17):
were setting off writing thisbook and I was like John, I'm
telling you just download, chat,gpt or log in.
You know, create an account,attach a BT and just start using
it, you were, and you were like, well, can like how do I do it?
can you show me?
And I was like, honestly, I, Icould, I could sit down with you
.
But the real way this works isyou just have to just start
playing around with it.
And I'm curious, like becauseyou I don't know if you would

(39:38):
consider yourself a power user,but what you're describing is, I
think, where we want to getfolks.
And how.
How did you?
Was there like an aha moment,like did you take a course?
Like how did you get yourselfto kind of become more
comfortable?

John Marble (39:51):
That was an aha moment.
This is another aha momentbecause you're making me feel
normal for doing it how I did,because I've still had this fear
that, oh, I'm doing it wrong.
But I just kind of went out andtried, based on your suggestion
that I do.
So I will say save your prompts, because I've learned to write
beautifully complex prompts andthen always forget to save them.

(40:14):
And it's a very autistic thingthat you just build things up
from the ground level every time.
So I'm like recreating theseprompts over and over again.
But it was in that exercise ofjust like using chat, gpt and
other language models, of justtrying that.
And again I go back to I thinkthat there's value in teaching

(40:37):
people how to critically usethese tools.
I'm just, you know, know, I'man old man yelling at a cloud
when I often say like, oh, wedon't teach people really how to
critically think anymore, and Ithink that's such a hugely
valuable skill.
In parallel to that, I think,is really thinking about how to

(40:59):
critically think about ai.
You know, we don't.
I'll make the case that wedon't necessarily have to have
everybody educated about thetechnical aspects of.
AI, but we should have peopleeducated in how to think about
AI, and I think if you educatepeople on how to think about AI,
then that makes for betterusers.

(41:19):
It makes for better consumers.
Some of those consumers willbecome, you know, people who
create products down the line,but we all don't have to do that
I might never create an AIproduct, but it can still change
my life by how I use it.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (41:38):
And especially for you know, if I'm
thinking about a student who isfalling behind.
There's been a big push tointegrate, you know, special
students in special educationinto general classrooms.
You've told me just to repeatback to you sort of the
conversation and please correctme if I'm wrong, but that's
generally seen as a positivething.

(42:00):
We don't want to separate thosekids out.
The missing piece, though, isthat kids are integrated back
into um the.
Is it, you say, generalpopulation or it's fun, yeah,
yeah um, but they don'tnecessarily have the supports,
and so now you have a teacherwho doesn't necessarily have the
skill set, um, to support, uh,a neurodivergent students or

(42:22):
multiple neurodivergent students, and in that, in that case, I
feel like there's far lessdebate.
I think there's a lot of debateabout exactly the role that AI
should play, but it feels soobvious Like there's there's
some some low hanging fruit waysthat schools can start to use
AI to to level the playing field.
And but I'm curious, for for aschool, you know, know, if

(42:46):
you're, there's a school leaderout there and they're hearing
this and they're feeling like,well, okay, yeah, I want to, I
want to do that.
I just don't feel like I know,like who can?
Who can folks turn to like arethere?
Because I think there's often alack of expertise within or
they're just stretched far toothin.
Um that's.

John Marble (43:02):
That's what it is and, if I'm being honest with
you, this is the sort of thingthat I'm doing some deep
thinking on now, because ideally, absolutely, we should have all
students in a mainstreamclassroom.
Practically, that transitioncan be really bumpy for the
students, for parents, forteachers, and it's for the
reasons that you lay out.

(43:24):
People don't have the resource,they don't have the information
you mentioned.
What's taxing on teachers?
It's also taxing on students andfamilies figuring how do I
thrive in a classroom like this?
And so more and more we'reseeing more of a blended
approach, where students aremoving back into a mainstream
classroom, they're not beingsegregated, but they might have

(43:47):
other services, and it's thattension that can be quite
beautiful and wonderful, butalso quite frustrating for
everybody involved.
And so I've started to thinkabout okay, what are the
approaches that we could do tohelp a teacher manage their
stress points?
Because not only are theyhaving to teach various students

(44:10):
, they're having to manageresources, they're having to
work with their administration,they're having to fight battles,
you know, on the district levelto get the things that they
need, and parents and studentsare similarly in a similar way.
Parents and students arefiguring out their own pressure
points as well.
So I've done a lot of deepthinking on you know certain

(44:34):
approaches that help, but in ourupcoming book we kind of lay
out what those are Great.
Now what if you apply sometechnology to that?
It could speed up a lot of thoseapproaches you know how do we
get teachers the resources theyneed when they're in a
resource-limited environment.
That's something thattechnology and AI can help with.

(44:57):
You know, even if it'srelationship management with
your school district or withfamilies, and I've started to
see things that work, forstudents and families Haven't
yet started to see thetechnology that will help speed
those things up.
I see a lot of technology fordisabled people and autistic

(45:18):
people and neurodivergent people.
Never quite works becausepeople forget to ask us what we
need.
Never quite works becausepeople forget to ask us what we
need.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (45:31):
But, at the same time, I'm very excited
about the potential that's outthere.
I mean, so this is a really bigchallenge that we have to
figure out, which is most of thecompanies building AI tools are
not building them forneurodivergent kids or people
more broadly, and there'sclearly a need for folks.

(45:52):
I mean, everything that you'vesaid is like the most help that
you received actually wasgenerated from within the
community, not necessarily fromsomebody outside.
It's also kind of funny tothink about autism researchers
who aren't autistic, right, andthere's a sort of like people
that sort of looking in Um andand so we hear things like well,

(46:12):
we need user centered design,we need, you know to, to create
a seat at the table, you know,for folks from different
communities to sort ofparticipate and help guide
things.
Um, and I I'm curious what thebecause I think that there's
more work to be done and I'mcurious, especially given that
you do this.
You have these conversations atcompanies where you're trying

(46:33):
to help them think about how dothey leverage their workforce
and their neurodivergentworkforce.
What advice do you have for,whether it's a startup or a big
technology company that's tryingto figure out, how do I engage
the neurodiversitycommunitydiversity community but
I mean I shouldn't give thisaway because I should ask people
to pay me for this knowledge.

John Marble (46:52):
but it's so simple and I'm so invested in this
actually happening, that thebiggest thing is just to involve
these populations in thebuilding of these products.
And a lot of people areprobably listening or watching
and thinking, well, yeah, thatmakes sense.
It hasn't happened in thedisability space.
I just see it over and overagain and I get why I'm

(47:13):
empathetic with why people getexcited.
Maybe they have a techbackground or maybe they have a
child and they have an idea andthey're going to build it.
And I always look at it earlyon and I look at who's behind it
and I'm like, yeah, if youdon't have any of the users
involved at the beginning,you're going to spend a lot of
money and it's going to fail.
And it happens again and againand again.

(47:36):
And I'm just thinking, if youjust spend a little bit of money
and decided around the end user, you could be making lots of
money.
I want people making lots ofmoney on tech products that
actually help people.
But it's just funny that I seeit again and again.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (47:53):
Yeah, I mean, these are some of the
folks we're actually talking to,talking with at South by
Southwest the Center for AppliedSpecial Technologies, cast
Shout out to Lindsay Jones,dyslexic Edge just two
organizations that we've talkedto.
And they're eager as well, Ithink what seems to be a

(48:14):
challenge that we have not fullyaddressed is there is this
there's still gatekeeping aroundAI and technology.
And I think people feelintimidated when they don't have
the technical background orexpertise.
They don't feel like theybelong.
And I think often, sometimes,if the conversation is too
technical, if it's too esoteric,then people won't really

(48:36):
understand like how they'resupposed to participate.
And so a lot of the work wehave done has been really aimed
at like how do you sort ofdistill this complex topic into
you know, when you talk about AIliteracy, I think it's not just
about like, how do you use thetool and how do you sort of
build this knowledge, but alsohow do you build the confidence
for people to identify where,where they sort of fit into this

(48:58):
project, that we have a society, to really answer the question
of like, not just should we beusing ai, but how do we use it,
how do we use it for, uh, thepeople that were supposedly
interested in helping?

John Marble (49:07):
yeah, I wonder if some of that gatekeeping is just
nervousness, because it's anemerging kind of market I mean
you don't see co, see Coca-Cola,nervous about whether or not
their consumers are educatedabout the ins and outs of
carbonated beverages and howthat's made, not to say that
people, not to equate AI withjust a consumer product, but you

(49:28):
want people educated enoughthat they can appreciate what's
going on, because at that pointpeople start to identify their
own needs and you know, even inthe neurodiversity space, I
think of like, oh yeah, I wish Ihad a tool that did this, or I
wish I had a tool that did that.
I'm not gonna go out and buildthat product, but just knowing a

(49:50):
little bit about ai andrealizing, oh yeah, that ai is
something that could help withthat.
I don't know how, but I couldtalk to other people and maybe
get them excited about like, hey, you want to make some money,
this is something that I need.
Maybe you want to research ifother people need this as well.
You might have the technicalexpertise to do this.
I would again go back to thecritical need that I see in

(50:15):
meeting with companies is reallyto have a workforce that is
educated about how to thinkabout things.
And to give you an example, Iremember meeting with a tech
company I won't mention who theyare and I was trying to sell
them on job opportunities for mygraduates of the program that I

(50:36):
teach in.
So autistic students who aregraduating had incredible skills
and I remember the executive atthe tech company said yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Autism, that's great, I get it.
Neurodiversity, that's great.
Can you teach what you'resaying, that you do with
neurodivergent people, to nonneurodivergent people?

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (50:56):
And.

John Marble (50:56):
I'm like what do you mean?
And she said I just needemployees who know how to be
like well, explain that to me.
And she said I am gettingbrilliant graduates of colleges
who are coming in whether thecoders or other things and they
just don't know how to thinkabout things in a critical way.

(51:18):
And that was another aha momentin my life that I realized oh
yeah, we might have certainchallenges because of our neuro
differences, but culturally,people are starting to
culturally have challenges aswell.
So as I'm teaching my studentshow to think critically about
things, I started to recognizeoh well, we have that need as a

(51:40):
society as well.
So if we really want to becompetitive, we need people to
start looking at things in acritical eye.
That I realized.
Well, maybe we're not teachingthat anymore.
So part of the reason why I'mexcited about AI is not
necessarily to teach thetechnical skills, but you have
this thing that is transformingour lives and will continue to

(52:02):
transform our lives, and if wecan get people to think
critically about it, that justhas all sorts of benefits.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (52:11):
Yeah, this has actually been a mantra from
CEOs for decades.
If you ask them like what arethe skills that you're looking
for most, they don't saysoftware engineering or
financial accounting.
They'll say the ability toliterally have conversations, to
work in teams, to collaborate.

John Marble (52:27):
Absolutely, and it goes into one of the big things
that I do with companies.
Honestly, a lot of it ismanagement training.
I'll go in and help managersunderstand how to manage
neurodivergent employees, but inthe United States we don't
really teach managers how tomanage anymore.
It used to be that way it usedto be.
If you became a manager, youwere then educated about how to

(52:50):
manage these teams.
Now we promote people tomanagement positions and we
don't equip them at all.
We just kind of throw them inthere, and so a lot of what I do
is, yes, helping peopleunderstand how to manage
neurodivergent employees, butit's really about how to manage
kind of all employees as well.

(53:10):
Same things with myneurodivergent students is I'm
realizing that, yeah, I teachthem how to to work with their
teams, but oh yeah, I thinkeverybody, I think a lot of
people kind of need help withthis as well.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (53:24):
So I thought of something.
If you haven't done thisalready, um, not, I'm, I
actually I would love to helpyou with this.
You could take the sort of thekey chapters or excerpts from
your book and we could build auh, a language model like a,
like a gpt, if you will.
Um, I'd be curious, because I Iheard you mention parents over

(53:48):
and over again, like do youthink there'd be demand for a
place for parents to turn whenthey just have questions and
they don't necessarily have, youknow, a psychologist on speed
dial?

John Marble (54:00):
Absolutely, and I don't even know if the
psychologists are always thebest resources for them.
You know, part of the reasonthat we wanted to write these
books was that I had beencomplaining for a long time of
like I wish I just had a book Icould give somebody, because
there wasn't really a goodcomprehensive book.
There are a lot of great booksout there with, like little

(54:22):
segments but I'm like I, justyou know, being an autistic
adult and having friends who arenot autistic but who have
autistic kids, I just started tomap out, ooh, all the gaps that
I miss, that they're missing,all the needs that they had.
So I think the book is like thefoundational part of it.

(54:43):
I am not setting up our book asthe only font of knowledge, but
having kind of that baseknowledge out there starts to
reveal oh yeah, there should betechnological layers in this and
we could be speeding upknowledge, we could be getting
people a lot more resources.
I think it's in havingconversations like this that I

(55:04):
realize that need and then yousay, well, there's a
technological aspect to this.
And I'm like oh yeah, of course.
Now I'm thinking of three otherthings that could help as well.
Those are the sort of thethings that I get really excited
about and that I try to pushpeople to think about.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (55:22):
I think the nuance is I could take your
book.
I don't exactly know thefastest way to get the PDF would
be, but let's just say, havethe PDF.
That would be the hardest part.
I could build a GPT, customizeit to your book, maybe even tell
me which chapters to use.
The thing is, I wouldn't beable to know if it actually

(55:46):
works, and so I think this iswhere, when we talk about
user-centered design, you don'teven need to be the one to build
the entire thing end-to-end.
I could do it for you.
Actually, it's very easy, youdefinitely could do it.
But I think the missing stepthat that I've heard you raise,
and so, just in this specificthought experiment, before you

(56:06):
share this with a bunch ofparents who might be making
consequential decisions based onthe advice, I feel like I would
need someone like you, and myguess is you would even say let
me pull in some other folks tored team this and it just
strikes me that there isn't yetthe infrastructure for like a

(56:27):
team of people who are sort ofeasily tapped for answering
questions like that.

John Marble (56:32):
Yeah, but nobody asks us.
If there is Like just askingthat question there is like just
asking that question I'm likeI'm just waiting for somebody to
ask me about.
I would love to build a cadreof people who'd be able to help
with that, and they definitelyexist out there.
I can tell you like I thinkit's started off subconsciously
and then we became conscious ofit and you know we have these

(56:53):
two books Neurodiversity forDummies and now Autism for
Dummies that our reader base.
We address different chaptersto say, autism for dummies,
autistic adults, to parents, toeducators, to therapists, to
employers.

(57:13):
It started off in a subconsciousway but I think by the end of
writing that second book we werevery conscious about using
those chapters almost as seedsthat could get people excited to
realize, oh, this is a chapterfor educators.
This is making me think of thisthat we need and that that we
need.
I think that I could writesomething about this or build

(57:36):
something about that.
So, hearing you say that, I'mlike, oh, maybe it's working.
That's exactly what we want todo, because I tell people,
especially entrepreneurs, theneed is so vast out there and
the market is so vast out therethat if you approach it the
right way, you could absolutelybuild tools that are successful
and really help people.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (57:57):
Yeah, what would be on your wishlist, like,
if you just think about like,are there any things that were
you just moments in your daywhere you've said to yourself,
if only I had a tool that coulddo X?

John Marble (58:06):
Yeah, well, I had one recently.
So one trait of autism issomething called a meltdown,
where there's a flood ofdifferent chemicals like
cortisol.
That in stress hormones is alot more complicated than that,
and when we think aboutmeltdowns with autistic children
, oftentimes it looks liketantrums.

(58:28):
It's not a tantrum, it's aphysiological response.
We've become pretty good atsociety about helping parents
and educators kind of manageautistic meltdowns.
Well, what happens when Ibecome an adult?
You know I've learned copingmechanisms, that it doesn't
happen often, but when it doesit's like really hits me like a

(58:51):
truck.
I remember I was up speaking atChico State a couple weeks ago.
By the end of the day I was soexhausted that I started to go
into a meltdown, retreated to myhotel room, took care of myself
, and then a colleague texted meand like I'm swearing at my
colleague through text because Irealized, oh, I got myself in a

(59:13):
quiet space.
You know I'm calmed down, Ifelt calm.
I'm like I'm managing this andI realized like oh, nobody
taught me what to do.
When all of a sudden you get atext and you have to respond to
it, I'm like why isn't there anapp to help adults with?
Like I'm either having thismeltdown or the shutdown or this
degradation in my speech, whichI was having as well.

(59:36):
It was hard for me to talk ofjust navigating me through it
Like I'm speaking at aconference, alex.
I was literally going to atable to sign copies of my book
and I could no longer speak.
You know I'm a verbal autistic,but every now and again I have
challenges with speech and I'mlike sitting there there, like

(59:57):
trying to verbally andnon-verbally communicate with
people as they're asking mequestions and I'm smiling and
not nodding but at the same timelike not able to speak.
Fortunately there was anotherautistic author who knew what
was going on, who pitched in tohelp me respond to that.
But I'm like why isn't there anapp to kind of navigate?
you know, my speech is slowingdown and this is going on and it

(01:00:20):
kind of guides you into that.
That got very like specific.
But on a broader level, I oftenthink of you, know, as an
autistic thinker, and I think alot of ADHD thinkers are like
this.
Thinkers are like this.
We think about so many vastthings that I'm just constantly

(01:00:41):
thirsting for structure andscaffolding to kind of help me
think about things and makedecisions.
And I think you know I've kindof learned how to use language
models that way.
But I think like that would bean incredible product.
My life would be so much easierif I just had a guide of like OK
, you're thinking about 40things.
You're really just wanting todecide where to get coffee this

(01:01:04):
morning.
You don't need to think aboutthose 40 things.
Let's limit the choices here.
And the same goes with likestarting new product lines or
starting new curriculum.
I see these things pop up allthe time and I'm like, ah, if we
had this, if we had that, mylife would be so much easier.
That being said, I think I'velike wandered away from your the

(01:01:25):
heart of your question.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:01:26):
No, no, I think this is exactly what I was
digging for.
Yeah, so a coach is almost anobvious.
It is, on the one, on the onehand, obvious Um, but I don't
think it's actually.
I don't think it's terriblyeasy.
It's sure you could use ChadGPT.
Uh, you could definitely train.
We could do it in five minutes,three minutes.
Uh, train a, uh sort of aneurodiversity coach, um, making

(01:01:52):
sure that it's high qualitymaking sure that because you're
reaching people in these momentsof and I've actually been with
you it really does.
I can't remember the last timeyou had a meltdown, it must have
been years ago, but I benefitedbecause I had John GPT, who you
had actually sort of walked methrough and I knew you basically

(01:02:12):
described what happens and so Iknew exactly what was happening
and people were asking ifyou're OK.
And I was just like, yeah, Ijust need some space and it was.
But there's so many people whodon't necessarily have someone
who's sort of as eloquent andable to kind of explain you know
, what is this actually reallycomplex thing where actually
there's nothing I can do to helpyou.
It's not about me sort ofhovering around and trying to

(01:02:34):
bring you things.
It's like I need to give youspace.
So, having a coach, aneurodiversity coach, gpt, it
would you know, it's somethingthat I would want to be driven
by, if not someone who isneurodivergent, certainly an
organization that specializes in.
You know how do you actuallyroll something like that out and
ensure that it's effective?

(01:02:55):
You know how do you?

John Marble (01:02:56):
actually roll something like that out and
ensure that it's effective.
And this is the type of lowhanging fruit that I get so
frustrated that people who applyso much resources in the
broader disability space justdon't get Because this goes back
to just some basic goodinnovation practices, design
around the end user.
There's plenty of people whocan help you design these
product products and get themout the right way, just for

(01:03:19):
whatever reason.
There's just a cultural blockout there that people are like
oh yeah, we forget to ask umpeople about this and I see
greater disability space becauseit's it's beyond neurodiversity
for whatever reason, any sortof application when it comes to
disability.
People just forget to ask theend users around.
That I'm like, if you justspend a little bit of effort on

(01:03:40):
the front end, the result can beso much bigger and also if you
talk with communities, you'llfind new opportunities as well.
You know one of the things thatI did a lot of deep thinking on
and how to communicate this theright way.
In our book, autism for dummiesis the phenomenon with what's

(01:04:03):
called autistic wandering.
So a lot of times with kids youknow who are autistic, they
just might wander off and itbecomes a safety issue and
culturally we've always kind oflooked at it from a safety issue
.
How do we prevent this fromhappening?
I make the case, and otherpeople make the case, of the
fact that you know what itactually benefited me as a kid?

(01:04:26):
Was it safe?
No, I still will not tell myparents where I went as a child.
They don't know.
They didn't know that I waswandering.
I grew up in the 80s where theyjust thought you were outside.
They didn't know I was twomiles away in a quarry, which is
where I was.
Do you want your kid two milesaway in a quarry?
No, but what I was doing wasexploring and building knowledge

(01:04:49):
and looking at plants andlooking at traffic patterns and
looking back I'm like, wow, Igained a lot from that.
So in writing this book, I'mlike how do I talk about it in a
way that you know it's not justabout prevention.
Let's look at some positivesMaybe and I make the case in the
book that maybe there's sometechnology that we could develop

(01:05:10):
that allows the child toexperience those things without
leaving their house, Because Idon't want to frighten parents
to think that I just want theirautistic kids out wandering the
neighborhood alone, but they doneed outlets to grow their mind,
to explore, whether that'svideo game based or other types

(01:05:30):
of technology based.
I just see those types of thingseverywhere that I'm like oh,
there's a need for this, butnobody's asking us about what
our needs are.
So I always joke.
I'm like I just need people tomake money on autism, and what I
mean by that is like just askus what we need, the market's

(01:05:51):
out there and you can buildthings that actually make you
money and actually help a lot ofpeople.
And I keep saying autism, butthe same is true with dyslexia,
dyscalculia, ADHD, other typesof experiences as well.
Just ask the users what theyneed and you'd be really

(01:06:11):
surprised.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:06:12):
The types of things that you can develop.
It feels that we have a lot oftechnology overhang.
There's, you know, the.
The frontiers of ai are movingforward seemingly faster than
ever.
I mean, there's been so manyannouncements.
Last even just like two weeks,it's february 24th.
Today, 25th today, so deep seekis a couple weeks behind us.
We have claude's new um sonnet3.

(01:06:32):
Which is apparently quiteexceptional in coding.
The frontiers are movingforward.
The bottleneck is actually notthe capabilities of the
technology anymore.
When people ask, well, how fardoes AI need to go so that we
can use it to do XYZ, theresponse this is not just my
response, this is the responseof almost everybody, all the

(01:06:53):
technical founders that I'vetalked to it's already good
enough.

John Marble (01:06:57):
I think so.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:07:00):
And certainly with reasoning models.
Now it's good enough.
What's missing is building thecapacity within communities or
organizations that are outsideof tech, and it's an interesting
challenge, right, Because thesolution clearly isn't going to
be those organizations need tohire a bunch of technologists.
How do you?

(01:07:22):
It's?
It's a, I think it's morenuanced.
It's like how do you actuallybuild a culture of
experimentation, how do youactually build the confidence
within the smartest people inthose organizations to actually
start, sort of like, identifying?
You know what their needs couldbe, and I, I I don't have the
answer to this, but I am kind ofcurious.
Just based on you know, yourexperience working with

(01:07:42):
companies, thinking aboutinnovation in the workplace, you
know what should we be doing,not over the next five years,
but literally like in 2025, youknow for and and let's just talk
specifically at either acompany, a non-profit that is
hearing what you're saying, andit's like you know what we
actually want.
We want to be an early adopter,we want to actually be on the

(01:08:05):
frontiers and push this forward.
What are some of the obvioussteps that they can take?

John Marble (01:08:10):
yeah, I don't mean to keep repeating the point
about going back to user centerdesign, but I really do think
that's the foundational thing.
I remember going to this Autismat Work Summit.
That was at a tech company andwe're in an innovation lab and
you had all these techexecutives trying to figure out
how do we get autistic people inour companies and do this and

(01:08:32):
that and that.
And I said and do this and thatand that.
And I said I'm the onlyautistic person in this room.
And I pointed to this posterabout innovation design.
I said look at this posterabout innovation where it says
if you want better outcomes, youneed to have more diverse
inputs.
And so there's 30 people inthis room.
I'm the only autistic person.

(01:08:53):
There's a lot of autisticpeople who have different
experiences than I do.
Maybe get some more of us inthis room.
I'm the only autistic person.
There's a lot of autisticpeople who have different
experiences than I do.
Maybe get some more of us in aroom to actually inform what's
going on.
And you mentioned organizations.
But I do have to caution thatin the neurodiversity space, in
the disability space, a lot ofwell-meaning organizations are
set up by people who aren't us.
Maybe they're started byparents, but slowly and slowly

(01:09:17):
they add other people, and so Ialways look at organizations.
I'm like, okay, if you're anautism organization, who are the
autistic people in yourleadership, who are your
autistic experts?
And that you know it makes ahuge difference partnering with
the end user and designingsomething versus not.
And to a lot of people hearingthis, this just seems like I'm

(01:09:41):
repeating such a simple point,but I have to emphasize again
that it just doesn't happen inthis space and I'm like it's
such an easy thing to do, and Ithink that's maybe why I get
excited about AI, because pasttech, past approaches with
technology, have been I'm goingto build this you know robot to
teach kids how to do socialskills.

(01:10:02):
I'm like, ok, I can tell that'sgoing to fail and I'm going to
do this and well, that's goingto fail.
But AI, at least as a as acultural concept, is fairly new,
which I think makes it a bitmore flexible, and people really
asking the right questionsabout how do we get this right,
just like you're asking abouthow do we get this right within
the school system with education, and I think that's a beautiful

(01:10:25):
point to actually start to moldthings that really work for us.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:10:30):
Yeah, I mean it is easier than ever to
build stuff, and that's not justbuilding, you know chatbots,
it's.
I mean, even if you want tobuild an app, you know, with the
cursor you can pretty much doit.
I mean you might need a littlebit of code.
It would help to have you knowsome entry-level coding, but you
could, and so so the the mostpeople are still writing.

John Marble (01:10:52):
That's why I keep saying I'm repeating this point,
but like I mean like I'm gonnakeep, not I mean beyond, beyond
this, I just in my daily lifeI'm, I think I'm gonna keep
yelling this until people kindof realize it.
To give you an example you knowI mentioned, you know, a company
building a robot to teach itssocial skills.
That's great, but social skillsvary across countries and what a

(01:11:18):
lot of people don't realize isthat, you know, maybe we're
teaching autistic kids how tohave the same nonverbal social
cues as non-autistic kids, butthat doesn't work if you go to
Germany or go to Finland,because when I travel, you know,
I go to places like Finlandthat doesn't use small talk, or
Sweden that doesn't use smalltalk, and I'm like, oh my gosh,

(01:11:40):
like my brain just feels sorelaxed, whereas, you know,
small talk is difficult for meand if I live in the United
States, it becomes much moredifficult to navigate the
workplace and navigatefriendships, because it relies
on that Same thing withcommunication.
You know, the autistic braintends to prefer direct
communication and vague thingscan be a lot more difficult.

(01:12:03):
That's a lot more difficult inthe United States or in the
United Kingdom becauseculturally, you know, our social
skills are a bit more vague.
You go to Germany and try that,or the Netherlands, and they'll
be like why aren't you gettingto the point and telling me what
I need?
So when I go to those countriesI'm like, oh, finally people

(01:12:24):
who get me, because they're justtelling me what they need and I
don't have to guess on thisfake thing or not.
So that was a long way ofsaying that.
A lot of the assumptions andapproaches that people do,
particularly for autistic kids,are based on their perspective
of what should be.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:12:39):
And I'm like that's not actually the
reality.

John Marble (01:12:43):
So again, talk to us and design things with us.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:12:46):
Okay, so you talked about going to
Finland.
I feel like, of all the travelstories I've heard from you,
finland it seems like the safestplace that you've ever been,
probably.
Yes, again, yes, again.
Reach into the hat.
What's one country that you'vebeen to?
Maybe recently, or that just?

John Marble (01:13:05):
sort of stands out.
I was recently thinking aboutit, unfortunately just based on
what's going on in the news, buttraveling through eastern Congo
and just the people that I metthere, and at the time it was
kind of a frozen war zone.
Unfortunately, now it's brokenout again into an active war

(01:13:28):
zone, but I do tend to travel tosome places that other people
don't and I really do credit myneurodivergence for that Is this
wandering.
It's a little bit related to towandering.
You know not to dismiss my ADHDside or just calculate side,

(01:13:50):
but there's a certain aspect ofautism that a lot of times if an
autistic person is interestedin a subject, they'll learn
everything that they could aboutit.
To give you an example, you knowdan akroyd, growing up as
autistic in canada, was obsessedwith dan akroyd's autistic yes,
yeah, um, also tourette's, butgrowing up in canada he was

(01:14:10):
obsessed with this german ghosthunter and he said that when he
became an adult, you know hetranslated that into the
Ghostbusters franchise.
Same thing he was obsessed withthe rhythm and blues growing up
and that became the BluesBrothers and House of Blues.
He also owns a vodka company,but I don't think he had an
interest in alcohol as a kid.

(01:14:30):
But it just gives you an ideathat if there's something that
we become passionate about, wecan learn everything about it.
And so, you know, I started tobe interested in frozen
conflicts and how people who forcenturies have hated each other
kind of learn to live with eachother even if they don't like
each other, which kind of led meto a lot of different places.

(01:14:52):
But one of the things that Irealized traveling the world is
that how different cultures arefrom one another, and there's
certain aspects of my brain thatjust felt more natural in
different cultures.
Like you know, no small talk inSweden or Finland, or more
direct communication in Germany,or the lack of eye contact in

(01:15:17):
Japan.
Culturally, it's offensive ifyou look people in the eyes
based on their rank, and for mewho, neurologically, just if
it's painful for me to look atsomebody in the eye, I feel more
relaxed here Nobody's trying tolook me in the eye and that led
to a lot of deep thinking thatI did on neurodiversity and

(01:15:41):
where neurodivergent conditionscame from.
And we can't prove everythingfrom the archaeological record.
But the genetic history ofconditions like dyslexia and
ADHD and autism tells us thatthese conditions have been with
humanity perhaps as long ashumanity has existed, certainly

(01:16:02):
since humans first beganmigrating out of Africa.
So that genetic story tells usthat these conditions have been
around a long time.
Maybe there's a reason for that, maybe there's not.
I argue that there is.
But what becomes clear is thatsocieties develop in different
ways and in certain societiessome people with certain types

(01:16:22):
of brains can thrive really welland people with other types of
brains might have a bit moredifficulty.
So traveling the world andseeing that oh yeah, I have less
difficulty here but moredifficulty there, it started to
reinforce to me, kind of justthe normalcy of neurodiversity
and it started to help merealize that, oh yeah, maybe if

(01:16:44):
we're building solutions withtechnology for neurodivergent
people, maybe we should try tounderstand them more before just
giving them a solution whichhas historically been the case
in the United States.
So that's, geopolitically, whatyeah.
I mean, I think for a lot ofplaces you know, europe has tend

(01:17:06):
to be better at this Australia,new Zealand have been a little
bit better with this but in theUnited States it's just like
this is what we think anautistic child should do, so
we'll teach you this.
Maybe that's not the case.
So, again, realizing that, well, we have the opportunity to
really understand people, to askpeople about their lives and to

(01:17:29):
develop solutions for them.
Again, not to make a commercialabout AI education, but I guess
that's what this is.
But it's where I get excitedabout things like AI.
Again, I'll make the point Idon't know the technical aspects
of AI, but I'm veryenthusiastic about it because I
realized that, well, it's at apoint in time that people are

(01:17:53):
starting to ask questions andstarting to develop things, and
it feels like we're culturallythose of us who aren't technical
experts are at the ground levelof maybe participating in that
conversation.
So, again, I get really excitedjust realizing that the
potential is out there for toolsthat can really help me and a

(01:18:14):
lot of other people, for toolsthat can really help me and a
lot of other people.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:18:17):
Yeah, I a good friend of mine.
His son is autistic and youknow he just describes the
rabbit holes that he'll go.

John Marble (01:18:24):
Oh my.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:18:26):
That's actually been one of the big
uses of chat.
Gbt is his son.
It allows him to indulge hissort of, like you know, kind of
haphazard, but very intense anddeep.

John Marble (01:18:36):
Yes.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:18:37):
Obsessions and you know he'll tell me like
I just couldn't keep up and it's.
It's actually really beautifulto me that that's.
That's something that you knowI has there's lots of.
You know there's two sides tothe sword of of AI, but being
this like resource that canindulge people's curiosity, it

(01:18:59):
seems so, so powerful and, Ithink, untapped.
Yet I think most, again, mostpeople are still writing sonnets
and translating something tosound like a pirate or you know,
creating raps, oh really, ohyeah, then I've gone way deeper
than people.

John Marble (01:19:15):
I mean, you say, you say two sides of a sword,
but I really look at it asneutral, like any technology can
be good, or bad.
That's been the case withtechnology since humans first
started sharpening sticks.

(01:19:35):
You know there's good andthere's bad, but in my eyes it's
just neutral.
I often think of a quotethere's a quote by Marie Curie
that I really like that nothingin life is to be feared, it's
simply to be understood, and Ithink that applies to AI.
You know, people say oh well,it'll take our jobs, It'll do

(01:19:55):
this, It'll become our overlords.
Well, there's potential foranything everywhere, but look at
it neutrally and see what youcould develop with it.
The same arguments against AIare the same arguments that have
been made against every sort ofdevelopment in technology
throughout human history.

(01:20:16):
Ai isn't special in that regard, but what is special is we're
sitting at a moment that we canactually consciously think about
what the future brings.
You know, when we develop theatom bomb or the gun, or the
plow or the wheel, peopleweren't consciously thinking

(01:20:37):
about well, how do we be moralabout this?
What is this going to look likein 50 years?
We're just at that point.
We're actually having theability to have that
conversation, and so I think fora lot of people it feels scary
because we're having thatconversation, but in my mind,
I'm like this has been happeningthroughout history.

(01:20:59):
Nothing is to be feared.
It's simply to be understood.
We're just talking about thisnow, so I don't think that's a
conversation that people shouldshy away from.
Maybe that's the autistic brainin me that I'm geeking out on
that.
I'm like well, actually,looking back through history,
we've been through this amillion times but I'm like, wow,

(01:21:19):
what an opportunity.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:21:21):
Yeah, in the hands of.
I mean, I think this is where,you know, society is going to
define whether or not AI is agood or a bad force, whether AI
is a force for good or a forcefor evil.
And you know, this is a plugfor AI literacy, is a plug for
for AI literacy.
But you know, if we really wantit to be forced for good, we

(01:21:44):
need to make sure that peoplewith the right intentions, um,
you know, have a role in shapingit and it's not just happening
to them, um, exactly.

John Marble (01:21:51):
I mean this coffee teacup.
Nobody thought about it whenthey were first developing
coffee cups.
I'm sure there's been lots ofpeople injured or even killed
with coffee cups by it beingused by people, but we also use
it to drink this wonderful teathat you got from Osaka.
It's like a lovely thing.
It's just we're having thatconversation now about AI.

(01:22:14):
We're having that conversationnow about AI.
I think a lot of people getscared of well, is AI going to
be a force for good or evil?
It's like saying, is thiscoffee cup going to be a force
for good or evil?
Nobody set out to build acoffee cup and say, is it going
to be a force for good or evil?
It's simply going to be.
It just happens that now wehave AI and we're conscious that

(01:22:36):
we're having this conversation,and so if we're thinking about
AI and neurodivergent people,you know the knee jerk reaction
of some people might be to, okay, let's build, let's use AI and
build it for a neurodivergentpopulation to do this, but we're
having the luxury to say, well,hold on, is that the right

(01:22:57):
thing that you want to build forthat population?
Let's have a largerconversation about it.
And again it just goes back tothe point that I emphasize is
that I may not ever understandall the technology around AI but
I'm starting to understand howto use it and how to think about
it, and I want to see a lotmore people know how to use it

(01:23:18):
and think about it as well.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:23:20):
So Neurodiversity for Dummies.
When did it come out?
It came out.

John Marble (01:23:24):
March of last year, and then Autism for Dummies is
coming out beginning of May,late April, may of this year.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:23:32):
Okay, so Autism for Dummies.
In May We'll include the linkto Neurodiversity for dummies in
May.
We'll include the link toneurodiversity for dummies, uh,
in the description, depending onwhen this video comes out.
I think it'll come up.

John Marble (01:23:41):
You can pre-order autism for dummies, so feel free
to include that link as well.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:23:45):
We will include that link as well.
Um, is there anything youwanted to close with any closing
thoughts?
For, for folks who are maybe,maybe, for whom this is the
first time that they reallyindulged in, um, a nerdy
conversation aboutneurodiversity like what, what
advice would you give somebodyif they wanted to go down their
own rabbit hole?

John Marble (01:24:03):
oh, that is such an open-ended question to ask an
autistic person, but I will tryfor that no, but I mean I I know
you well enough that I'vealready started a former answer
around that I you know the pointthat I make over and over again
.
It's just how normalneurodiversity is.
You know, we understand thatcertain neurodivergent

(01:24:24):
conditions have been aroundhumans for maybe as long as
humanity has existed.
It's just now that we'restarting to understand them more
.
But there's nothing inherentlybizarre about being autistic or
dyslexic or having ADHD.
What's bizarre is not reallyunderstanding those differences.

(01:24:48):
And I don't mean that as a slamto individual listeners, I just
mean that more as a critique ofsociety.
And I think that listeners andneurodivergent people ourselves
and parents and educators arenow starting to become aware of
those things.
And again I'll make the parallelto AI that not anything

(01:25:10):
inherently to be scared of, it'sjust to be understood.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:25:15):
I really would recommend um, even if you
don't have anybody, well, evenif you think you don't have
anybody in your life who'sneurodivergent first of all, um,
but you know, for me the bookjust helped provide this, this
empathy.
For, you know, people are just,they have people tick in
different ways, andneurodiversity for dummies is

(01:25:39):
not just for parents of kids whoare autistic or neurodivergent.
It's really a way of justunderstanding the people in the
world around you, and I feellike it instilled this curiosity
in me.
It was also interesting to findout that the Spice Girls when
the Spice Girls is, autisticWell, not autistic, but I did
have that conversation with ourprevious editor.

John Marble (01:26:00):
I said I now realize that I've referenced the
Spice Girls twice in this book.
Is that okay?
It turns out to be true.
I talk about Mel B in her, Ibelieve, adhd and then also talk
about Victoria Beckham asrelated to her husband, david
Beckham's neurodivergence.
But just as an example of a lotof times I show people

(01:26:26):
celebrities in slides when we'representing to companies and
it's not to say, yay,neurodivergent people, but it's
to help them realize thatthere's neurodivergent people
everywhere and if they can kindof understand that they're there
in pop culture, they start torealize, oh yeah, they might be
there in our workplace and ourfamilies, you know, and our
friend group, because it'sincredibly common.

(01:26:48):
We estimated that at least 20%of the human population are
neurodivergent.
Some people put that as high as30% or 35%, but 20%.
You know North America.
You know United States, canada,mexico, all the Central
American countries is about 7%of the world population.

(01:27:10):
People with green eyes is about2% of the population.
Left-handed people are about10%.
Neurodivergent people at least20% of the human population.
So that's a lot of humans andit just shows you how common it
is.
So if I get to use some funcelebrity examples, it's pretty

(01:27:30):
much to hit that point.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:27:33):
Yeah, there's so much value in looking
at, you know, looking at thepeople around you and you know,
wanting to understand more.
Oh yeah, who they are, you know, and how they are.

John Marble (01:27:43):
And honestly it's a .
It's a lesson aboutneurodiversity that I do, but
it's really a lesson foreveryone that I tell
neurodivergent people that themore that you can understand and
accept yourself and yourdifferences, the easier things
are going to be.
Honestly, that's a lesson thatanybody can learn.

(01:28:07):
We, even people who are what wecall neurotypical.
No two human brains are thesame.
No two people experience theworld in the exact same way.
So if you can understand yourstrengths and your needs and
your challenges every human hasa challenge, every human has
strengths.
The more that you can reallyunderstand yourself, the better

(01:28:29):
off your life will be.
I also like to say maybe I'llend on this that Whitney Houston
, in the Greatest Love of All,sings learning to love yourself
is easy to achieve, and I'm likethat's the only time I've ever
disagreed with Whitney Houston.
It is a hella hard lesson tolearn to accept yourself, but

(01:28:50):
the more that you can acceptyourself and realize no, I'm
fine, I'm different, and maybethose differences cause
conflicts in my life, but atleast that's something that you
can navigate.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:29:02):
John Marble .
Thank you so much for coming on.

John Marble (01:29:04):
Thanks, Alex.
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